The Legal Case for Challenging Chief Wahoo
If Canadian indigenous-rights activist Douglas Cardinal had had his way, the Cleveland Indians would have been legally prohibited from playing Games 3 through 5 of the American League Championship Series in their standard road uniforms. According to a lawsuit filed by Cardinal on Friday in Ontario Superior Court, both Cleveland’s Chief Wahoo mascot as well as the “Indians” team name itself are racially offensive and discriminatory, in violation of Canada’s Human Rights Act (which generally prohibits businesses from “differentiat[ing] adversely” between citizens on the basis of race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation).
Although Judge Thomas McEwen announced on Monday afternoon that he would not be issuing an injunction blocking Cleveland from wearing its normal uniforms during the ALCS, the legal proceedings have nevertheless brought renewed attention to Cleveland’s use of what are, in the minds of many, racially insensitive team insignias.
This raises the question of whether Cleveland’s — or, for that matter, the Atlanta Braves’ — team name or logos are at risk of being successfully contested in the United States. Indeed, considering that a U.S. federal court ruled last year that several trademarks belonging to the National Football League’s Washington Redskins must be cancelled due to their disparaging nature, it is entirely possible — and perhaps even probable — that Cleveland or Atlanta could soon face a trademark challenge of its own in U.S. federal court.
Any U.S. legal challenge to Cleveland’s or Atlanta’s team name or logos would likely be premised on Section 1052 of the Trademark Act, a provision prohibiting trademarks that “disparage … persons, living or dead, institutions, beliefs, or national symbols, or bring them into contempt, or disrepute.” In the Washington Redskins case, for example, a group of Native Americans alleged that the team’s trademarks should be cancelled under this provision because the term “redskin” has long been considered a Native-American slur.
In applying the statutory provision to Washington’s trademarks, the court examined whether a substantial number of Native Americans considered the trademarks to be disparaging at the time they were originally registered. In other words, the question is not whether someone might find the trademarks to be offensive today, but whether a critical mass of Native Americans felt they were offensive at the time when the government first approved them.
Moreover, under Section 1052, courts do not decide whether the use of the term in question is generally considered offensive, but rather ask whether it is disparaging in the particular context with which it has been trademarked. In other words, even if the term “Indians” may not be considered disparaging in and of itself, if Native Americans were offended by its use as the name of a sports team, then it could potentially be subject to cancellation.
In the Washington case, the court ultimately determined that the team’s name was disparaging to Native Americans at the time its trademarks were first registered back in the 1960s. In particular, the court emphasized the fact that Native American groups had been protesting the team’s use of the term since its registration, and that dictionaries began labeling the term as being offensive around the same time.
Anyone wishing to challenge any of the Cleveland Indians’ or Atlanta Braves’ trademarks would likely have to make a similar legal showing. In Cleveland’s case, the team formally registered the “Indians” name and its “Chief Wahoo” logo in 1984 and 1976, respectively (although both insignias had, of course, been in use for quite some time before then). Thus, in order for either trademark to be cancelled, a challenger would have to show that a substantial number of Native Americans considered them to be disparaging prior to their date of registration.
In fact, it turns out that a Native American group had filed a lawsuit against the team back in 1972, claiming that both the “Indians” name and Chief Wahoo logo were racist and offensive. Should another group decide to challenge Cleveland’s trademarks, this earlier lawsuit would provide strong evidence that the name and logo were both considered offensive to Native Americans well before the government formally approved them for trademark protection. As with the Washington football team, then, Cleveland is potentially at risk of losing its federal registration of these trademarks.
Meanwhile, Atlanta first registered trademarks for the term “Braves,” as well as its “Screaming Indian” logo, back in 1967. (It does not appear that either the Boston or Milwaukee Braves had sought out federal trademark protection prior to the franchise’s relocation to Atlanta.) Unlike with Cleveland, however, it does not appear that any Native American group had formally protested Atlanta’s team name or logo in court before the government approved those trademarks.
Nevertheless, in the Washington case, the court relied on evidence that Native American groups had met privately with the football team to express their displeasure with the team name before or around the time that its trademarks were registered. It is possible that someone intent on challenging Atlanta’s trademarks could uncover a record of similar communications with the Braves.
Along these lines, news reports suggest that the Native American group that filed the lawsuit against Cleveland in the 1970s had planned to file a similar challenge against Atlanta around the same time period, expressing particular displeasure with the team’s “Chief Noc-a-Homa” mascot.
That all having been said, the constitutionality of Section 1052 — the statutory provision on which these challenges would likely be based — is currently being reviewed by the U.S. Supreme Court in a case involving the Asian-American rock band The Slants. If the Supreme Court were to rule in the band’s favor, then trademarks along the lines of Cleveland’s or Atlanta’s may no longer be subject to cancellation on disparagement grounds.
But let’s assume that Section 1052 is ultimately upheld as constitutional, and that either Cleveland’s or Atlanta’s trademarks are successfully challenged under the provision. In that case, what would be the implications of a court cancelling some, or all, of the team’s trademarks? Less than one might think.
For starters, the loss of federal trademark protection does not mean that the team would necessarily be forced to change its name. The cancellation of a trademark doesn’t compel a business to stop using the mark in question; it just prevents the company from suing infringers for the unauthorized use of its marks under federal law. Even then, however, because many trademarks are also protected under state law, as well, the teams would likely still be able to sue any infringers for violating this state-level protection.
That isn’t to suggest that federal trademark protection is meaningless. Having a federal trademark gives you a presumption of ownership over that trademark, and in some cases allows you to recover greater damages from infringers. But on the whole, the loss of federal trademark protection is less significant than is commonly assumed.
Nevertheless, losing federal trademark protection would certainly be a significant symbolic and public-relations defeat for Atlanta or Cleveland. As a result, given the controversial nature of their team names and logos, it would not be surprising if both franchises eventually face their own trademark challenges in the not-too-distant future.
Nathaniel Grow is an Associate Professor of Business Law and Ethics and the Yormark Family Director of the Sports Industry Workshop at Indiana University's Kelley School of Business. He is the author of Baseball on Trial: The Origin of Baseball's Antitrust Exemption, as well as a number of sports-related law review articles. You can follow him on Twitter @NathanielGrow. The views expressed are solely those of the author and do not express the views or opinions of Indiana University.
“a Native American group had filed a lawsuit against the team back in 1972, claiming that both the “Indians” name and Chief Wahoo logo were racist and offensive. Should another group decide to challenge Cleveland’s trademarks, this earlier lawsuit would provide strong evidence that the name and logo were both considered offensive to Native Americans”
“a Native American group”, out of how many? with how many members? Without knowing that we cant say that theres “strong evidence” that the name and logo were considered offensive to “Native Americans”, it might have been offensive to 98% of them, or just a handful.
i’m sure most native americans dont find a caricature of themselves with bright red skin and named ‘wahoo’ offensive. it’s gotta be just a meaningless handful that’s kept pushing this issue for decades. yup.
“Nine in 10 Native Americans say they are not offended by the Washington Redskins name, according to a new Washington Post poll that shows how few ordinary Indians have been persuaded by a national movement to change the football team’s moniker.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html
congratulations on posting an article that’s irrelevant to the previous posts points
http://nativeappropriations.com/2016/05/wapos-new-redskns-survey.html
http://nativeappropriations.com/nativesagainstredskins
white people go crazy for that washington post article lmao
This sealed for me just how extreme the caricature is. https://judgelucassports.wordpress.com/2013/10/23/history-of-cleveland-indians-questionable-logo-how-it-compares-to-other-ethnicities/
“i’m sure” does not constitute evidence
asking stupid questions constitutes stupidity
Just one nit—even if a federal trademark registration is cancelled, the trademark’s owner can still sue under federal law (i.e., they don’t have to resort to state law and courts). But they lose the benefit of the federal registration, which include enhanced monetary damages and a presumption of validity (making any infringement suit easier to prove).
But they would have to qualify for federal jurisdiction under another basis, right? Like amount in dispute >$75,000 and diverse parties?
No, because they would still be bringing suit under federal law.
I understand the issues around the Redskins team name but are “Indians” and “Braves” really disparaging? I’m not a Native American but they don’t seem so and I haven’t read anything why they are. Chief Wahoo does have to go though and it seems like Cleveland is moving that way a tiny bit at least with emphasizing the block C logo a bit more.
I was going to say, Redskins seems more offensive than Indians. Although I suppose it is somewhat akin to calling a team The Negroes. You do have the Ghana Black Stars in international association football.
I guess they could be the Native Americans as is often used colloquially, but a bit of a mouthful. The Natives seems a bit offensive as well. The Indigenous?
They could go back to being the Naps. That doesn’t sounds so great either these days.
Yeah, Chief Wahoo has to go. As for the team name, perhaps a whole new name? Cleveland Rust? The Lake of Fires? The Rockers? Or after this year, maybe the Cleveland Millers.
How about the Fighting Irish? The Flying Dutchmen? Haven’t we done this thread a few times already?
“Black Stars” refers to the Ghanian flag.
Yes, and the Black Star on the Ghana flag is based on the Black Star of Africa. The Black Star Line was started by Marcus Garvey as part of the back-to-africa movement, modeled on the White Star Line, changing the color from white to black to symbolize ownership by black people. The Black Star became a symbol of pan-Africanism and anti-colonialism. Ghanians now consider it to symbolize Ghana alone and not Africa as a whole. The black star is the symbol of African emancipation. Originally, it pretty clearly referred to black people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Star_of_Africa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ghana
Wiki of course may be wholly incorrect. But it makes sense to me. What do we otherwise think the blackness of the star refers to? The red is blood, yellow mineral wealth, the green is forest etc. This is what the flag designer himself thought.
All that is correct, but the black star is the Ghanian people’s chosen symbol for themselves. It is nothing like the owners of a sports franchise who come from the historically privileged group choosing to name their team after a caricature of an historically marginalized and persecuted group.
Oh, I agree. There was also The Black Yankees in the Negro Leagues.
I really don’t know what the Indians owners all those years ago were thinking, but I doubt it was about oppressing marginalised people. Chief Wahoo is one thing, he is a caricature, but Indians was just what most everyone called native americans.
At the time it may have been somewhat patronizing but you had Pirates, Yanks, in basketball Knickerbockers, etc, also people, although I guess Yanks and the Dutch weren’t marginalised (I don’t know ask Peter Minuit). Football Cowboys and, instead of Indians, Redskins.
Nowadays it may seem more offensive than it did then. I take it even Native American would seem offensive to you? If they are offended then I have no issue with the name changing. My point was only that name seemed less offensive to my mind than Redskins. But I am not obtuse to the point of people being made into a mascot. But like I said that is true of many team names, and it is usually meant as an honorific. As in Braves, but like Yanks, or Knickerbockers evoking a Kindly dutch pipe-smoking uncle from old new york, or Fighting Irish the fighting spirit of irish catholics.
By the way, the name of the UNC-Pembroke athletic teams is the Braves. It is an historically american indian university, Lumbees mostly. They seem to have little problem with the name although I am sure some are offended.
“UNC Pembroke’s athletic teams are known as the Braves. Due to its heritage as an institution founded for the benefit of American Indians and support from the Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina, the school has largely been immune to the ongoing controversies related to American Indian-themed nicknames and mascots.”
In that instance the fact that it is a mostly Lumbee university makes the name acceptable to them, I suppose.
“Braves” is definitely different than “Indians.” Braves is more similar to the Gaels or Vikings or other ethnic groups’ warriors. But Indians and Redskins are just a race and a slur. We wouldn’t tolerate calling someone the New Orleans Jews. I think they should go with the Cleveland Spiders. But that’s just me.
Oh yeah, I think that Spiders also has some history to it.
You could go with Maccabees, since that was an army. is there any team that uses Brahmin?
You could just call them, as many do, the Tribe, unspecified.
Just because Redskins is more offensive doesn’t mean that calling a team Indians isn’t offensive.
Like I said above, the UNC-Pembroke Braves is the team name fo an historically native american university. I take it if the ownership group was native american than Indian would be less offensive? or Braves? Or should it all be off limits? I don’t have any…, uh, anything at stake. I don’t have any allegiance to the name. Redskins is more offensive. Indians, ok, making a people into a mascot is inherently belittling if it is historical oppressors with respect to marginalized people (as London Yank points out above).
I still say they could go with the Cleveland Millers. Like the Cleveland browns were named after Paul Brown, or the Indians used to be the Naps after Napolean Lajoie.
It would be just as offensive. It’s a stupid, racist nickname.
True, but the word being a term widely used to describe a group of individuals without any obvious negative connotation does mean that it isn’t offensive. I’m on board with dumping the Chief Wahoo logo, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with the nickname “Indians.”
There very much is something wrong with the nickname “Indians”.
Why? How is it any different from Yankees, Mariners, Pirates, Brewers, Padres, Cowboys, Vikings, 49ers, Spartans, Texans, Patriots, etc.? “Indians” is not in any way an offensive term, and it’s much more widely used among native groups in the United States for self-identification than “Native Americans.”
‘I’m not a Native American’
I’m supposedly 1/16th Lumbee, but I don’t think that gives me any rights of dispensation.
They said they would move away from Chief Wahoo, but on the biggest stage in the playoffs this year they’ve been wearing it prominently a LOT. Including on their hat and jerseys in Toronto last night in spite of this whole case. Pretty ill advised if you ask me
The block C cap is only worn with the road greys. The starting pitcher gets to choose the uniforms for that day, and neither Tomlin nor Bauer elected to wear the greys. Bauer typically wears grey, but went with navy because if his finger started bleeding it would be less visible.
Yes.
What about “Chiefs” or, for that matter, names like “Seminoles” (or other tribe names)? Not trying to muddy the waters or anything, just curious how people feel, the Seminoles example feels similar to like Trojans or Spartans to me.
Except the Seminoles still exist as an actual group of people. Also, Seminole tribes in Florida have given FSU permission to use the name and have worked with FSU on the depiction of their culture and to educate the student body about the tribes.
Indians is just as offensive as Cleveland Blacks or Cleveland Whites, and Redskins is just as offensive as Washington Crackers or Washington Yellows etc. Pretty bad names all things considered.
I don’t think Braves is a bad name, not unlike Atlanta Soldiers I would think…,?
Is there any argument in favor of keeping these names, even if they are legal? They are anachronistic.
Isn’t that true of pretty much every sports nickname referencing human beings?
I do not think so. I think a people like “Indians” who suffered genocide perpetuated by the US Government and who continue to be marginalized are fundamentally different than a people like “Vikings” who don’t have such a history.
Just to be clear, you’re abandoning your previous argument that anachronistic names shouldn’t be used? I understand why given that your complaint didn’t make any sense, but it would be helpful if you acknowledged that first complaint as baseless if you’re going to shift to an entirely new one. As for that new complaint, “Viking” populations actually were subjected to warfare and displacement by other European powers. Furthermore, while there is no question that native populations were mistreated by the United States government, and that treatment is one of the most terrible injustices in this nation’s history, the claim of “genocide” does not appear to have factual validity given that the very vast majority of native deaths occurred from disease before the United States even existed. While some claim that disease was spread intentionally, the only surviving evidence comes from British forces in 1763, and most historians are skeptical that the practice was carried out given that there is no evidence of a smallpox epidemic occurring among the native populations near Fort Pitt, whereas smallpox had already been spreading in the century prior.
No matter how hard the PC crowd will try, Chief Wahoo will always be in our hearts.
I’m stopping by the cleaners later on today, would you like me to pick up your hood and robe for you?
Spartacus,
I don’t appreciate your tone. I feel offended.
I’m sure Trump knows the right words you make you feel better.
You made a KKK and Trump reference so you might as well complete the leftist attack by inserting “racist”.
You leftists are so predictable at this point. I already knew that I was going to get a massive number of thumbs down since the left has already infected so many denizens of this great country.
What a joke.
Why is it so important to you that a sports team is named after a race of people?
“Why is so important for you to defend freedom of speech”
“why is it so important for you to defend the marginalization and defamation of others”
DeanAnna, I think you might want to get a better idea of what “freedom of speech” is. You’re misusing the concept.
I’m using the classical definition of the concept, youre the one on the side trying to change it. The harm principle does not apply to hurt feelings.
https://xkcd.com/1357/
An always relevant xkcd.
If the basis of the cancellation of trademark registry is that the message conveyed by the brand name or logo is innapropiate then yes, it is a freedom of speech issue.
“Freedom of speech” means that THE GOVERNMENT cannot restrict your speech. Reread the Constitution.
Yes, so predictable that we care about the feelings of others.
I bet you did too at one point, until the empathy was trained out of you.
I have very strong feelings towards freedom of speech. Empathy towards basic freedoms outweight caring about feelings.
Why is it the people that always bring up Freedom of Speech have no idea what it actually means?
On this occasion, it is a First Amendment issue though, even if you limit “free speech” to the legal concept, since it’s addressing the USPTO approving a trademark registration.
That is not to say that DeanAnna meant it in that sense. But I will politely push back against the idea that Freedom of Speech is only a legal construct – it’s also a normative concept and so referencing the principle even in cases where there is no government action can be appropriate.
Freedom of speech is both a legal concept and a cultural value, and I’m against the erosion of both.
Congrats on being the first pathetic excuse for a human to use the word “leftist” on Fangraphs.
I wish the Indians would dump the Chief Wahoo logo, but Spartacus jumping straight to calling koufaxmachine a Klansman was extreme and unwarranted.
I gave you several thumbs down and I’m a conservative. You may think that only the Left downvotes racism but every conservative who judges other people solely on their merits (by “the content of their character”) will downvote you as well. And despite what both the Left and you seem to think, racism is not a conservative value.
Honestly, I have never voted for a Democrat, but increasingly over the last decade the Republicans running for political office have disgusted me. Johnston worded it very well. I haven’t attacked anybody’s political leanings, just this particular stance. I made a reactionary comment as well, so I’m no better, but I do wish everybody would show each other more respect and accept the differences in people.
Spartacus, that’s exactly why I abandoned the GOP and went independent many years ago. I still don’t vote for Democrsts, but I’m selective about who I do vote for.
Seriously, making a KKK reference? Look, I can understand if you feel pasionate about this issue (I don’t like Chief Wahoo either), but to suggest that someone is a clansmember for disagreeing with you is ridiculous. Even worse, it’s not going to persuade anyone, it’s only going to drive the wedge deeper between the two sides.
I mean, have you ever stopped and considered that those on the other side might not be a bunch of racists? Isn’t it posible they’re simply misguided? After all, a person doesn’t need to have sinister intentions to be wrong.
So if you really want to make things better then drop the self-righteous jackassery and do the hard work of actually demonstrating why your solution is the better one.
Upvoted… Fernando and jdbolick are right… there are better ways for me to disagree.
You should look into a Lipitor prescription.
“our” = racist redasses
Again, no, not racist. See my comment above. People can hold an opinion you find offensive without being racist, and throwing around that language so lightly doesn’t win the day, it juat makes communication harder. Let your argument win the day, not a label.
What if the PC crowd you are disparaging and dismissing outright is actually just a bunch of kind, mature people that are sensitive to the feelings of other people, even when those feelings are inconvenient to us as white people?
It’s kind of like how with family, friends, colleagues, etc., sometimes you have to not say something you’d like to, or not call someone something you want to, because showing respect, demonstrating empathy, and attempting to get along are considered more important ends. Hopefully this concept is not entirely foreign to you.
So, I’m just curious…why are people who apply this uncontroversial, commonly held principle for interpersonal relationships to social groups as a whole just a bunch of whiny, counterproductive people to you?
The Fangraphs narrative is generally that progress is good and that traditionalist thinking impedes progress. However, when it comes to the race-based team names a shocking number of Fangraphs readers are traditionalists.
With respect to sports I am generally quite traditionalist. The nostalgia and history of baseball are parts of the game that I really love. However, some traditions are not worth keeping. Our history of race-based classification is not worth preserving.
I agree that it isn’t worth it. It is amazing how important identity is to people, no matter where you fall on this or other race or identity issues. The name will almost certainly eventually change. It isn’t worth it on divisiveness grounds alone.
“Progress” towards what? At some point the sport “progressed” towards using your best reliever only with a lead in the ninth inning.
Progress towards people collectively agreeing that race-based characterizations of people are morally wrong.
“Morally wrong” is a very strong concept. Not apt to describe just feelings.
An unshocking number of Fangraphs readers are also white men from the countryside.
Well I’m Mexican, living in Mexico, and I love me some Wahoo ever since I saw the logo as a little boy. So take your ad hominems away and try to form an actual argument.
Wait, so you’re Mexican, living in Mexico, and you’re arguing about losing your freedom of speech? The US constitution doesn’t pertain to Mexico… nice job of cherry picking arguments. Next time try sincerity, you’ll get farther.
I cant worry about the rights of other people? Then what exactly are you doing right now by condemning the chief?
Having been born on concrete I do not fit that description either.
Ok, I willl bite. I grew up next to a reservation, and more than 1/2 of all kids from my school were from the reservation. The most common hats worn by kids from the res? Redskins, Indians, and Braves. It was not even close. The vast, vast majority of people on the reservation would snicker when someone called them Native American and say something along the lines of “I am Indian, not Native American.” Another common term was “Natives.” Growing up the only people who said Native American were teachers.
Not saying the name is offensive, or that it is not. Just saying that it is common knowledge that the people fighting these names do not speak for the rest of the Native Americans, and generally are looked down upon on the res as someone who is “acting like a white boy/girl.”
The Cleveland Natives would be a better name in my opinion, and they could use the N8ive slogan that is common in Native American culture.
There’s a sociological term for this – adaptive preferences. When the field of available choices – or in this case, representations of yourself – are varying levels of bad, you’ll make due with the best of what’s available and convince yourself that it’s fine. Rich, famous athletes who date actresses wear this uniform? Sure, they’re wearing a Sambo-like caricature on their sleeve, but that’s a decent trade-off, right?
FWIW, my hometown is on traditional Anishnaabe territory. And sure, it’s very common to hear Anishnaabek men, in particular, call themselves ‘indian’. It’s also common to see them shout (angrily) at any white guy who thinks he can use the word to describe them. So, there are massive differences among within communities and between them. Isn’t it better to acknowledge that a large majority (at the least) is offended and drop the name? It can’t possibly be worth it. For anyone.
I have no qualms with getting rid of the names. That is how I would vote. I do however not believe that the majority of Natives are offended. My reasoning for changing the teams names would be that it is setting a bad precedent, that offensive names are okay. However the people who are most offended by it I would venture are not natives. I do not know if that 9 out of 10 survey was right, but it is likely in that range of people who do not find it offensive.
Here is a really poor hardly related at all analogy:
My wife is Colombian. A while back I looked at her and said, “Your ass is looking fat today. ” She turned around and beamed and said, “Really? Thanks!! I was hoping it was getting bigger. ”
The moral of this really poor analogy is different people think of things different ways. Some Native Americans are offended to be called Indian, and some are offended to be called Native American. Some girls like to ask you “do these jeans make my ass look fat” and are actually hoping you say yes. Also Colombian girls are hot.
“Minorities are not allowed to like things that I disprove of. And when they do, I call on sociology to show that they really dont.”
Occam’s razor called, maybe they just like the names and logos. Logos specially, are designed to be aesthetically pleasing. And Chief Wahoo is very aesthetic, provided you check your third party hurt feelings at the door.
Black kids also call each other nigger but you don’t see that on hats.
I have seen black kids in NYC wear White Sox caps, seemingly in disproportion to the number of actual fans here. And I don’t think it is because they are fans of Chance the Rapper (who designed some Sox caps). A lot of caps are associated with various gangs. Apropos of, well, something, but not directly related to your point.
http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/08/most-gang-affiliated-hats-sports-today/
Nothing about the White Sox but it is definitely a thing in NYC, but I didn’t think it was gang related anyway. Just an observation. Like swpl. And you do see NWA on hats. or did.
*a 🙂
Meanwhile we have an entire state called Indiana and no one cares.
On numerous occasions, I have suggested (elsewhere, not here) that we get rid of Indiana entirely. The state serves no purpose and there’s always a weird stench when entering.
Except for one uptight douchebag (apologies to the douches and it’s users).
Is there anyone who finds “Braves” disparaging? I sure hate it when someone calls me “brave”. Chief Noc-a-Homa needed to go, for sure, and the Braves did away with him in the 80s, but the team name itself hardly seems derogatory. I realize I’m just a biased white dude, here, so maybe I’m missing something, but wasn’t being an Indian Brave something to take pride in, a designation of honor? I guess there’s some connection to violence and/or belligerence there, but really, it seems pretty harmless.
Fans of the other teams in the NL East? Well, not now because they suck.
To the people asking if “Indians” and “Braves” are disparaging –
Consider this. If there was a baseball team named the San Antonio Mexicans or the Seattle White People, wouldn’t that be pretty freaking weird?
I cant see Braves=White People or Mexicans. That seems like a false analogy. Isnt it much more akin to warriors, rangers, cowboys, etc. Brave is to Indian as Cowboy is to Caucasian, no?
Braves definitely carries the connotation of Native American, much in the same way that Vikings carries the connotation of Nordic Europeans.
Not saying it doesnt, but that does not make it offensive. Cowboy carries the connotation of Caucasian. Calling someone brave or in this case a strong or ferocious warrior isnt an insult.
The original cowboys were Hispanic, and there were a very significant number of black cowboys in American history. Look up Bose Ikard some time; he was amazing. Texas legend and pioneer Charlie Goodnight put this epitaph on his grave: “Bose Ikard, 1859–1928, with me four years on the Goodnight-Loving Trail, never shirked duty or disobeyed an order, rode with me in many stampedes, participated in three engagements with Comanches, splendid behavior.”
I have a photo of the cowboys on my great-grandfather’s Texas ranch around 1890; half of them are black, and several are Hispanic.
Claiming that “cowboy” implies “white” is false, racist, and historically ignorant.
That comment does not make any sese.
Why would the San Antonio Mexicans be offensive?
Woud you be offended if there was a team named the Washington Americans?
Well, I’m offended by the NFL’s Houston Texans, but that’s just because I think naming a team after a geographical population descriptor is dumb.
I feel like there is a dumb Texans joke in here somewhere.
Speaking as a Texan who lived in Houston four different times in his life, I agree, but only because Houston now has so many damned Yankees in it.
I think it fair to ask if it is actually offensive to any significant number of people to which it at least tangentially applies. Do a decent number of natives find Indians and/or Braves offensive? This could apply to the Vikings, the Padres, or any other number of teams, except I’ve never heard the slightest concerns with those names so I assume no one is offended. The Washington Post story with the credible polling company finding that 90% of natives don’t care about the Redskins name was enough for me to stop caring about that. It’s easy enough to hate the Redskins and their insufferable fans without caring about their name.
You mean like the Notre Dame Fighting Irish? Yeah, I’m definitely up in arms about that one.
If there was a baseball team named the San Antonio Mexicans or the Seattle White People, wouldn’t that be pretty freaking weird?
I keep seeing this argument. As a white person, the only thing I would find weird about “White People” is its lack of creativity. I don’t find it remotely offensive. It’s like threatening to feed me chocolate for no reason.
That said, I think if Cleveland was naming its team today from scratch and still went the Native American route, they would probably name it after a particular tribe or after a honored role in native culture (Braves, Chiefs, etc.) When the “Indians” nickname first materialized about the same time Louis Sockalexis joined the team, I suspect that pop culture people saw the natives as mainly one big group rather than the distinct tribes with distinct histories. Do keep in mind that there were still Indian wars in the 1890s with flare ups into the 1920s.
Do you think San Diego State Aztecs is weird? Minnesota Vikings? Boston Celtics? Notre Dame Fighting Irish? Michigan State Spartans? Houston Texans? Montreal Canadiens? Vancouver Canucks? I don’t see house San Antonio Mexicans would be any weirder than any of those. If there was a Portland OR team and it was named the White People or Caucasians, that would be about right
If a team was called “The Caucasians” the same people complaining about Chief Wahoo would complain that the name reeks of white nationalism and that minorities do not feel welcome to be fans of said team.
True.
The thing about the Braves nickname, is it was the only nickname on this list that was specifically chosen to piss off a group of people. In this case, it was chosen to piss off Boston Area Republicans who staunchly apposed Tammany Hall backed Democrats. (Tammany Hall members were known as Braves)
“Imagine a world without lawyers”
*Shudders*
A world without lawyers would be heaven.
In the view of this white man:
Chief Wahoo – Pretty super racist.
Indians – Okay, but it’s pushing close to the line, so let’s all be careful with usage.
Braves – Okay. But hold off on the war chants.
Redskins – Racist. Closely analogous to “negro” — i.e. can use if you self-identify, otherwise you should probably feel a little awkward when you use the term in conversation.
And in the view of this lawyer:
It’s not the place of the government to determine trademark registration on the basis of the mark being “offensive.” That’s a First Amendment issue, and I hope the Court affirms the Federal Circuit in In Re Tam (“The Slants”). Public pressure on the Indians to get rid of their mascot is fine and I think should be encouraged. All in all, I’d like MLB to quietly “encourage” Cleveland to retire the use on branded merchandise.
The MLB has the power to ban racist nicknames, and should use it.
We’re beating this drum again…
not a fan of government stepping into cases like these. they should change the logo, but it should be on their terms, because of public pressure and/or because they finally came to their senses. i really think it’s a waste of everyone’s time and money for government to be policing language and imagery in the public sphere.
Your argument is entirely illogical. The federal government refusing to waste its time and manpower enforcing the exclusive use of racist logos is hardly a “waste of time and money for the government.” It’s literally the opposite. Not that the knee jerk anti-government types who liked your post will care.
i’m not sure what wasn’t clear about I said. it reads easy enough, no? of course it is a waste of time and money. no one is dying or suffering from violence here. no one has a right to not be insulted or offended. this is not a government entity that has a responsibility to respect and cater to everyone. the Indians are a business that you can freely and voluntarily support or reject. if the logo is bad, as I and many people think, stop giving the Cleveland Indians your time and money. write a blog, post about it on facebook and retweet it a thousand times if you like. make it socially unacceptable. if Indians ownership still want to be racist or inconsiderate assholes, then they are totally within their rights to be. we the people have the power to make them pay for it.
As an Irish person, I am extremely offended by the University of Notre Dame because of their egregious use of the racist, anti-Catholic, anti-Irish leprechaun-in-a-fistfight mascot and the term “Fighting Irish”. Irish Catholics have been targeted for cruel, inhumane discrimination for decades. The stereotype of us as drunks who get in fights is extremely hurtful.
Okay – admittedly I don’t really care about it. But if somehow it is racist for the Cleveland ball club to be called the Indians and use Chief Wahoo as a mascot, then by what twisted logic is it not equally offensive for Notre Dame to be called the Fighting Irish and use that idiotic leprechaun as a mascot?
At some point either all team names and mascots that offend anybody will need to go, or society will formally decide which groups it is acceptable to stereotype and use as mascots.
Or maybe society won’t do that. Who knows? Either way, this is just silliness.
“But if somehow it is racist for the Cleveland ball club to be called the Indians and use Chief Wahoo as a mascot, then by what twisted logic is it not equally offensive for Notre Dame to be called the Fighting Irish and use that idiotic leprechaun as a mascot?”
By the logic that Notre Dame is a Irish Catholic university and the Cleveland Indians have never been a Native team? If the American Irish Catholic community gets together and decides the relevant mascot/moniker is offensive, then we can have that discussion.
ND is not run by Irish people, nor is it run by the Catholic Church. The Board of Trustees runs ND – half of whom are priests and half of whom are not affiliated with the Church. But the Church itself does not run the college. As a Catholic, I have no say in the use of a stereotype liquored-up leprechaun ready to throw down as a mascot.
Again, I don’t think it should matter. But if Fighting Sioux, Indians and other nicknames are racist and offensive, then why is Fighting Irish okay?
The only real answer is that it is acceptable to treat Irish Catholics in this derogatory manner, but it is not acceptable to treat some (but not all) other groups in this manner.
Then again, nothing really matters. Anyone can see. Nothing really matters. Nothing really matters to me.
What bothers me MUCH more about Notre Dame is their claim to the 1966 NCAA football championship. That is as absurd as it gets. Notre Dame went 9-0-1 and refused to play in a bowl game. Alabama went 11-0-0 and crushed Nebraska in the Sugar Bowl. And somehow Notre Dame was the champion according to the AP poll?
Alabama was the true champion that year. Notre Dame has as much claim to the championship that year as I do.
Shameful.
OTOH as an Alabama fan, have you seen some of the “national championships” that Alabama claims? Seriously, the Notre Dame claim for 1966 is STRONG compared to the claim for Alabama in 1941. They went 9-2 and won the Houlgate rating, which is used by the NCAA for historical ratings (so the NCAA does list them as one of the number 1 teams for the year), but they came out at #20 in the AP poll that year, behind 4 other SEC teams, so they weren’t even the best team in the conference.
Given the number of downvotes my comment received, I think I was unclear in the point I was trying to make.
First, yes, I do know that the Catholic Church does not officially run the university. But historically, the Irish Catholic community in the United States has been strongly linked with the university, and I would guess (without hard evidence) that an outsized number of alumni are Irish and Catholic.
Second, I wasn’t saying that the liquored-up leprechaun mascot is not racist and offensive, only that history suggests that the people the mascot would be offending – the Irish – have not found the mascot offensive, given the influence that community has w/r/t the university. The Native community (yes, lumping them all together, I know) has never had similar influence over the Cleveland Indians, and have been very vocal in how offensive the Chief Wahoo character is.
I was saying that if the community that the mascot is lampooning finds it offensive, in the same way the Native community has found Chief Wahoo to be a racist caricature, then Notre Dame should probably change the mascot. But, as anecdotally seen in your view, this doesn’t seem to be the case.
All of these team nicknames and logos are racist and need to go. And soon.
Isn’t it bad enough that we committed ethnic cleansing and genocide against Native Americans and mistreat them to this day without adding further insult to injury?
By what means though? Government mandate? Certainly that would be a free speech violation.
If not a government mandate, then what? There are racist nicknames in every sport from the high school and college levels through the major leagues in every sport.
My college was called the Indians until 1988 and then they became the Saints after a year with no nickname at all. How many colleges are likely to do that on their own?
The MLB can ban racist team nicknames tomorrow. So can the NFL and NCAA (and there has been some movement there). “Freedom of speech” only applies to the government trying to restrict your speech.
correct. exactly why government should stay out of it. we can handle this ourselves. it just takes the right amount of public pressure.
Who is “we”? Neither my ancestors nor I committed ethnic cleansing or genocide. If you want to lump all “white” people together as “we” then have at it. But that is an ignorant, racist POV.
Are all Asian people the same to you also? Or does it just go for all Whites?
How can someone be so dense with respect to their own privileges? Sure, maybe you can make a case that you didn’t directly, personally, deliberately infect tens of thousands of them with small pox.
But then again, if nobody had done that, where the hell would you be?
How dare you. Are you assuming I am white? I most definitely am not. And if you knew me at all, you would realize how off base your comment is.
What “privilege” do I enjoy in your mind?
You’re an American, living on land taken from Native Americans by acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Or maybe you’re a Canadian; Canada did the same thing, they were just not as bald-faced about it. But if you live in North America and you’re not a Native American, then you are a party to what happened to them. And you’re living on land that was stolen from them.
“In my mind” you enjoy the privilege of having been fortunate enough to have been born into one the safest, most economically secure nations that’s ever existed.
Do you honestly imagine you played some sort of commendable bootsraps role in choosing the womb you came out of or the time period in which you were born.
Not quite sure how this concept is so hard for people to grasp without being offended. It is what it is. Count your blessings. Appreciate the notion that without Native American genocide you wouldn’t be in the circumstances you are in.
This doesn’t mean I think anyone with this privilege is inherently evil or immoral. Nor, just to be clear, does it mean individuals don’t experience a wide range of privilege or lack thereof within their given social groups. Nor does it mean nobody’s life is difficult because they have privilege with respect to their culture not having been historically marginalized. It just means we owe it to appreciate the circumstances we find ourselves in relative to historically marginalized minorities.
None of what I am saying is akin to saying that you yourself wiped out the native Americans by defending the mascot status quo. That would be a strawman view that literally nobody believes but which is constantly fought against by the Tradition crowd.
God forbid anybody should have a different opinion than Ambrose Beers.
“Not sure how this concept is so hard for people to grasp without being offended” You sound like a bully and a blowhard.
Actually Beers is making perfect sense, and you guys are coming off rather badly from here.
‘Who is “we”?’
“We” is the United States of America. Acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing were committed under the American flag by American troops and American officials under orders from the American government. This is an undisputed fact.
Mistreatment of Native Americans continues to this day, again under the orders of the American government. If you doubt this, I recommend a field trip to the Navajo Reservation.
By the way, if you think having the government managing your health care is a good idea, visit a reservation (I recommend the Navajos, because they are friendly and honest people). Or talk to VA patients. You will never want the government anywhere near your health care ever again.
I surely don’t want the government managing my health care. I never asked for it, but the government does not care what I want.
I’m not going to pretend I understand the legalities, but a two points to make:
1. As has already been noted, I see a large difference between “redskins” and “indians” or “braves.” I have long thought that the Washington football team should simply rename itself the Indians, although that may simply be so that twice a year a professional sporting game would feature the Cowboys and Indians. As such, there is also a difference between Chief Wahoo and the block C or Chief Nocahoma and the arabic A.
2. There is a little discussed part of this I think is crucially important: the mind set of the names of these teams was not to poke fun at or mock or disparge anyone…no one picks a team nickname out of mockery. Exactly the opposite. The braves and indians names should serve as a mark of pride for the native american community…someone thought enough of that heritage to honor and celebrate it in their town.
IIRC the Cleveland name was chosen specifically out of a belief that Cy Young had been part native American and was intended to make a connection with his time with the Spiders without actually using the Spider’s name.
They should go back to being the Spiders.