The Overrated and Underrated Mark Trumbo
Yesterday, I wrote a mini diatribe on the value (or lack thereof) provided by Nelson Cruz. Because he has earned the label of “right-handed power hitter”, teams are apparently ignoring the fact that he’s not actually that good of a hitter and doesn’t really do anything else to help a team win. Bat only players where the bat isn’t that special are probably the most overrated players in the game, and that is certainly a club to which Cruz belongs.
That description also works pretty well for the eminently available Mark Trumbo. His name is perhaps the most popular of the morning, as the Diamondbacks are apparently working multiple avenues to try and acquire his power from the Angels in exchange for some of their excess pitching. Keith Law has even reported that there’s a chance that they could get the White Sox involved in a three way trade in order to find the right fit to help them acquire Trumbo, and it seems likely at this point that the Angels will move Trumbo in a quest to upgrade their rotation.
If the reported price tag of Adam Eaton and Tyler Skaggs is even remotely close to true, it seems fairly clear that the Diamondbacks are drastically overrating the value of Mark Trumbo, an unsurprising result given that he possesses the skillset that is most often overrated. To give up a prospect like Skaggs for the right to swap a speed-and-defense +2 WAR player for a dingers-and-ribbies +2 WAR player suggests that the Diamondbacks are following the trend of putting far too much emphasis on the ways players create runs and not the amount of runs they create.
Trumbo is simply not an impact player. Over the last three seasons of big league action, he has posted a 112 wRC+, which is terrific if you’re a good defender at an up the middle position but a little less terrific if you’re a first baseman or an outfielder who runs like a first baseman. He turns 28 in a month, so there’s not a lot of room for potential growth here either. Trumbo could still get better, of course, but he’s not some young kid who should be expected to develop into something dramatically better than what he is now. He’s a league average player, basically, and should be expected to be a league average player for the next few seasons.
But it’s worth remembering that Trumbo is a league average player, and those have value. For as much as I think the rumored price tag means that the Diamondbacks are overrating his contributions, it’s also equally wrong to simply quote his on base percentage (which is kind of awful) and ignore the thing that he does do very well. Trumbo has definitive strengths and weaknesses, but just as teams seem to overrate low OBP-high HR guys, statistical types like us can tend to underrate guys who make a lot of outs but do serious damage when they aren’t making outs. Mark Trumbo is not an impact player, but he also doesn’t suck. Positions that focus solely on what he can or can’t do miss the fact that the combination of those skills results in a player of some value.
Not as much as the Diamondbacks think he has, most likely. More than most guys coming off a season with a .294 OBP, however. Used properly, there’s nothing wrong with having Mark Trumbo in your line-up, as long as you understand what he is and aren’t planning on him being your answer to David Ortiz. And he actually has enough athleticism to be a pretty decent defender at first base, so he adds some value with the glove and isn’t a liability in the field.
Unless you put him in the outfield, where his size limits his range and makes his physical limitations more obvious and more harmful. And this would be the plan in Arizona, as they already have Paul Goldschmidt entrenched at first base, so Trumbo would be acquired to roam the outfield. Trumbo as a left fielder is likely less valuable than Trumbo as a first baseman, as the gap in his own defensive value at the two positions is probably larger than the gap in positional scarcity between the two spots. It is possible that he could improve significantly with a lot of work, and perhaps even become a passable defender in the outfield, but his size means that he’s probably never going to be an asset out there.
And so the Diamondbacks would be acquiring a league average player who they were forced to use sub-optimally, meaning that in Arizona, he’d probably produce at a slightly below average level. In fact, there’s a pretty good chance that Mark Trumbo as an outfielder would produce less value than Adam Eaton as an outfielder, and simply swapping those two players would make the Diamondbacks worse.
There’s likely going to be more pieces involved in any deal that gets completed, and perhaps by the time the deal is revealed, it will be more evident why the Diamondbacks are interested in completing this deal. For their sakes, though, I hope they get some other things in value in return, because Mark Trumbo is not the kind of guy that is going to justify giving up Adam Eaton and Tyler Skaggs. He’s not as worthless as his OBP might suggest, but the fact that it takes him 500 outs to hit 30 home runs means that his overall value is limited.
Mark Trumbo isn’t great. And Mark Trumbo doesn’t suck. He’s okay. If you pay for okay, there’s nothing wrong with trading for Mark Trumbo. The Diamondbacks need to make sure they’re paying for okay, because that’s what he is.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
I think another angle the D’backs are coming from is that the switch from one of the pitcher-friendliest ballparks to one of the hitter-friendliest parks could turn Trumbo into a perennial 45-homer guy. Looking at his career splits though, it does appear that Angel Stadium doesn’t really suppress Trumbo’s power, so we’ll have to see.
WAR accounts for park factors, though.
Then maybe the D’backs calculate WAR differently? From what I remember last offseason, they’re all about G(rit)AR. I think Kevin Towers also looks at his light-hitting outfield as some kind of aesthetic blackspot; that you need an extra 30+ homers to make it look respectable. Idk, one of the reasons the NL West has been so interesting the past ten years is that every front office has the tendency to make highly questionable moves as soon as they’re in a position of relative strength.
Damn, I was about to point out the grit-ness of Mark Trumbo.
I wonder if the Sydney Cricket Ground suppresses RH power. I look forward to see Mark Trumbo patrolling the square leg boundary in the season opener there…
They don’t come more gritty than Adam Eaton.
Yeah, but Mark Trumbo would try and bean the opposition hitters if they ate bananas in the dugout. Eaton wouldn’t.
If a park affects a player more (or less) than average, then the difference between how the park affects the player and how it affects the average player is real value that is gained (or lost). If Trumbo’s batted ball profile is such that the BOB is especially friendly to him, then his WAR will go up, since it will only adjust for the difference in the run environment.
I understand the argument, and think it makes sense. However, my gut feeling is that the magnitude of this difference isn’t going to be huge. I highly doubt moving home ballparks would turn his 30 HR into 40+HR — that would be a ~50% difference (since he only plays half his games at home, it’s saying he would hit 10 more HR in ARI cmp to LAA).
My gut feeling is while a home park will affect some hitters more than others, the magnitude of that effect is more in the 5-7% range.
I agree Travis L. But he did hit 34 last year and 32 the year before. With the change in parks and his age I could see a 40 HR year or two in him. I don’t think he’s Dave Kingman or Mark Reynolds and all home runs or strikeouts. He did walk at an 8% clip last year. I think the DBacks got themselves a lineup changing middle of the order hitter. That’s hard to come by.
I don’t think he’s Dave Kingman or Mark Reynolds and all home runs or strikeouts. He did walk at an 8% clip last year.
O, really?
Mark Reynolds ages 25-27, 455 games, 113 HR, 630 Ks, 234 walks, 114 OPS+
Mark Trumbo, ages 25-27, 452 games, 95 HR, 457 Ks, 115 walks, 115 OPS+
Again, Trumbo’s walk rate helped him put up a terrible .294 OBP last year.
And even if Trumbo does start hitting 40+ HRs in the desert, they’re now going to pay the three arbitration years of Trumbo! They’ll pay something like 6+ Mil for this year (guess), and if he hits that? they’ll be looking at 22 – 30 million dollars the next two years for a guy with a <.300 OBP. Fugly. Awful trade.
In Fantasy, you buy Trumbo low at the end of the year. Get his good first half in, and then sell high in July. Rinse and repeat.
Done it the last few year and it works like a charm. Just check out the stats and that horrible average he generates post-all-star break.
k
Thank you for making all of our lives richer with your expert fantasy baseball analysis.
I can only hope you’ve been told this before, but nobody and I mean nobody on the internet except you cares about your fantasy team.
and you think that anyone cares what you think about someone who posts about their fantasy teams?
Radival is right. Nobody cares about your fantasy team. But I sure do like it when we talk fantasy and all these guys go apesh!t. They all really do believe this isn’t a fantasy site.
But he did pretty decent in the home run derby, so he must be worth something…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OyqPcVKFiA
Trark Mumbo
I like Tark Mrumbo more, meself.
Mark “Dalton” Trumbo
uzr is pretty favorable for Trumbo in LF. You can’t look at deals like this (Trumbo for Skaggs and Eaton) and simply declare that Trumbo projects less wins. Eaton may not be more than a 4th OFer in AZ (Parra, Pollock, Ross, Prado) or anywhere for that matter, while Trumbo might represent the cheapest way to acquire a power hitting OF corner (3 yrs of control). The DBacks surely have excess OFers once Trumbo is there so it’s obvious they’ll include one in the deal.
meant “the cheapest power corner OFer available with 3 controllable yrs to go.” Trumbo might make 15M the next 3 yrs. Nelson Cruz is likely to get 3 times that.
If it were LH power I could understand, but Cody Ross and Trumbo are basically the same thing, great against LHP and below average vs. RHP. Considering Pollock and Prado show the same profile, 4/5 of you OFs are going to be below average against most pitchers.
I guess there is some question as to Ross’s health coming off of hip surgery. That, I and I guess the Snakes see Trumbo as having more power than Ross, tho they aren’t far apart I agree.
Targeting someone like Cuddyer would make much more sense. You could play platoon heavy, with Ross/Pollock/Prado playing against LHP and Cuddyer/Parra/Prado vs. RHP.
Yes, but Nelson Cruz has been worth almost +5 WAR the three years, while Trumbo hasn’t even been worth +7. So you see.
I was thinking something very similar. AJ Pollock is close to the same player as Adam Eaton, if not better, so including Eaton in a trade doesn’t hurt so much. They don’t really need both of them.
I don’t see how Eaton is seen as excess, whereas Trumbo is not. First of all, Ross/Parra is/should be a platoon split if there ever was one. Prado is hardly strictly an outfielder. So there’s room.
But more to the point, Eaton is projected to be BETTER than Trumbo. So what if he does it looking a lot like AJ Pollack (though one’s a lefty, one’s a righty)? A win is a win, and even if you think Trumbo is better and Eaton is worse than the projections, is Trumbo better than Eaton AND the cost-controlled years of Tyler Scaggs?
we don’t know the whole deal to be making any judgments yet.
I agree. I object more to the principle that Eaton is expendable simply because he contributes his value in a duplicitous manner is flawed. Trumbo shouldn’t be awarded any bonus points just because the way he produces his value is with home runs.
Eaton… contributes…. in a duplicitous manner” LOL
yeah too many book words huh, my bad
No, too many book words used in correctly. Acting in a duplicitous manner involves some sort of deceit. This does not seem to be how you used it.
I think you meant duplicative.
“No, too many book words used in correctly.”
Oh, the ironing is delicious!
I think he meant duplicious! LOL
HEY EVERYBODY LET’S MAKE FUN OF THIS GUY!
Let’s not and say we did…
Just because you have a surplus, it doesn’t mean there’s no bad way to deal with it. It looks more the Dbacks might be getting some prospects to offset it though.
UZR isn’t “pretty favorable” for Trumbo in LF, he’s got 557 innings, essentially 63 games for a full timer, which isn’t statistically significant enough for a strong conclusion.
Combine those with his RF innings and you have over 1,000 innings that say he’s a below average outfielder, and with a stronger statistical significance.
If you think it’s just a LF vs. RF thing and he’s good in left and bad in right, (instead of the much more likely variance in data recorded over small samples), then you have to ask yourself how a big guy who is very slow for an outfielder and less athletic and bad at defense at 3rd/RF could be a good outfielder? Does his large size gravitationally attract balls to him in left? Then why doesn’t it work in right for him?
Cherry picking tiny statistical data groups to support your inherent wishes isn’t likely to end well.
It would be hard to love this trade if I was DBacks fan. If only he hit like pre-All-Star-Break the entire season. If I were Kevin Towers, there’s no way I’d give up a premium prospect for him.
Please please please let it be true!
Updated reports say the DBacks would get a prospect from CHW and LAA, which makes much more sense.
except that neither the Halos or PaleHose have any prospects aside from maybe their top 2 or 3 that are worth anything.
Rule 5 draft eligibles worth little to nothing. Which makes sense given Towers sucks at trades.
I dont understand this at all. They already have two platoon type OFs, in Pollock and Ross, who mash against LHP and are horrible vs. RHP. And if you include Prado and Trumbo you have 4 OFs with wRC+ below 100 against RHP.
you’re on to K. Tower’s master plan, which is to fill his team with platoon OFs, therefore draining the market, thus creating an artificial scarcity, thereby causing unreasonable demand for such OFs, and finally allowing Towers to trade for a GRITTY team full of pitchers who will throw at the opposition’s heads!
just bc a player might be slightly below 100 RC against same handed Ps doesn’t in and of itself make him a platoon player.
There have been some utterly bizarre trades this offseason.
Shhh, Dave…shhh….
(whispers) “Oh! Sorry.”
“Er, ARCHIE BRADLEY IS QUITE OVERRATED…”
Santiago and Skaags for Trumbo is a nice haul.
Santiago is a backend SPer, nothing more at this time. So let’s not overdo the analysis here. The Halos get one quality SP prospect (back) in Skaggs and one back end SPer, both controllable long term for 3 controllable yrs of a power hitting LFer plus it looks like 2 prospects who are unknown right now.
AZ dealt Skaggs and Eaton to get Trumbo and 2 prospects. and the PaleHose swapped Santiago for Eaton. Looks like they may have made out best there getting what *could* be a decent leadoff hitter controllable for 5+ yrs for a backend SPer.
A backend SPer is like water in the desert to DiPoto at this point though.
what do you mean?! He just punted Jerome Williams who might be better than Santiago.
Did the D-backs sour on Eaten? I know they didn’t have space for him in their crowded outfield, but it wasn’t long ago he was seen as a big part of their future. Same with Skaggs.
Didn’t they just give away Jason Kubel? It seems like they are paying a lot to reacquire him.
I know Goldschmidt is a good defender at 1B, especially when it comes to catching throws from the other IFs. But he’s younger, and faster (if his SB count has anything to say).
Would it be completely nuts for the D’Backs to move Goldy to the OF and play Trumbo at 1B?
Yes, that would be one way to make this trade look even worse.
I live in Phoenix and I can tell you the Dbacks have definitely soured on Skaggs and I’m not sure why. I know he has struggled in each of his call ups the past couple years but he is still one of the top LHP prospects in baseball. I do think with Corbin and Miley they were thinking they would like to move one cost controlled LHP and add a veteran RHP which they may still do. However, if given the choice I would rather keep Skaggs and part with Miley. I also know that KT didn’t like having three defensive first OFs without pop and wanted to add a power corner OF. Not saying I agree with that but after watching all three last year if given the choice I’d rather see Eaton moved before Parra or Pollock. All in all a typically puzzling KT move. To be honest outside of his Kelly Johnson for Aaron Hill trade I haven’t like any of his moves since taking over in AZ.
Are we sure that the Diamondbacks didn’t get Mark Trumbo confused with Mike Trout? I mean, the names do sound similar…
The only thing Towers should be managing is a damn cashier at circle k
Maybe he could star in a British comedy called Faulty Towers.
My friend accidentally drafted Mike Carp instead of Mike Trout in 2012
TRUE STORY
Nellie Cruz vs Mark Trumbo: one guy is an athlete, the other is barely. One guy sniffs league average in OBP, the other is under .300.
But thanks again Dave