Thirty-Two Is a Magic Number for MLB

Please pardon this break from playoff-related content.

Writing for Baseball America earlier this month, longtime baseball scribe Tracy Ringolsby reported there’s “building consensus” that MLB is soon headed toward expansion and a 32-team structure and perhaps a 156-game schedule.

There have been rumblings of expansion for some time.

As a guest in the Rockies’ broadcast booth back in August, MLB commissioner Rob Manfred was asked about expansion. He again suggested that the stadium issues in Oakland and Tampa must first be resolved. But once those situations are put to rest, MLB seems committed to expansion. Manfred has said baseball is, ultimately, a “growth industry.” Manfred then, during the broadcast, mentioned other incentives for expansion that this author hadn’t previously heard the commissioner address.

“I think 32 [teams] would help us from a schedule and format perspective,” Manfred said. “It would really be an improvement. Even numbers. Getting rid of the [five-team divisions] would really be a good deal for us.”

So expansion would largely be motivated by a desire for growth, but it would have a significant ancillary benefit, too: the addition of two more clubs would allow the league to restructure dramatically the way its divisions are aligned, its playoffs are structured, and the way its season is scheduled. Reshaping divisions could also reduce travel for players, which would please the MLBPA. The relentless demands of the schedule and the travel it requires are both increasing concerns for players. Ringolsby addresses those issues in his Baseball America piece. He also proposes radical geographic realignment with four, eight-team divisions, as follow:

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East: Atlanta, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Miami, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, and Washington.

North: Boston, Cleveland, Detroit, Minnesota, Montreal, both New York franchises, and Toronto.

Midwest: Both Chicago franchises, Colorado, Houston, Kansas City, Milwaukee, St. Louis, and Texas.

West: Anaheim, Arizona, Los Angeles, Oakland, Portland, San Diego, San Francisco, and Seattle.

Montreal seems like a favorite to land an expansion team. As for team No. 32? There are many options. Portland is perhaps an increasingly popular one, and the city made a bid to lure the Expos in 2003, as Jay Jaffe noted in a deep dive on the subject last week for Sports Illustrated.

An increase to 32 teams would force a split to two or four divisions per league, and this author suspects MLB would favor the later. The introduction of eight separate four-team divisions would increase would create even better odds for clubs, however arbitrary and manufactured those divisions might be. Either four- or eight-team divisions would likely result in a playoff expansion, an extra division winner, or extra wild cards. (When has a playoff format ever contracted?)

But this author suspects the sport would benefit from four divisions rather than eight. Eight-team divisions would place even more importance and prestige upon regular-season success. With larger divisions and perhaps more balanced schedules, there could be a benefit in playing different intraleague teams more often. There would be more schedule diversity and the chance for more rivalries to emerge organically. In the present arrangement, teams play only a home and away series with each non-division league foe per season. The adoption of a four-division system would also possess an advantage over the eight-division one in that such a structure reduces the possibility of a mediocre or even a sub-.500 team, of reaching the playoffs.

The following is a guess from this author on what four, eight-team divisions would look like:

Best Guess on What 8-Team Divisions Would Look Like w/32 Teams
NL WEST NL EAST AL WEST AL EAST
Brewers Phillies White Sox Toronto
Giants Nationals Rangers Yankees
Dodgers Reds Mariners Orioles
Cubs Braves Angels Tigers
Rockies Pirates Astros Red Sox
Padres Mets Athletics Indians
Diamondbacks Marlins Royals Twins
Cardinals Expos* Expansion 2* Rays

Basically, it would look like the pre-1994 divisions with expansion teams added.

Nor does this address the advantage for Major League Baseball of operating with an even numbers of teams — namely, in that it would liberate baseball from the tyranny of odd numbers. Specifically, it would allow the league to stop worrying constantly about the state of interleague play.

In fact, this author will argue that the game would be better off without interleague play and with more geographically focused divisions.

Having some experience in covering college football, I was able to observe the effects of geographic proximity on great rivalries — Alabama-Auburn, Florida-Georgia, Ohio State-Michigan, South Carolina-Clemson, UCLA-Southern California, etc. Baseball, too, could benefit from allowing geographic proximity heighten and create rivalries, which would ultimately increase interest and promote business. And if there’s a future with less interleague play, it might make sense to pair the best of the interleague rivals together in the same division so that they play more frequently.

More Mets-Yankees, more Cubs-White Sox, A’s-Giants, Dodgers-Angels, and Orioles-Nationals wouldn’t be bad for the sport. Maybe the owners of the No. 2-ranking franchises would feel differently. In any case, I made some modest proposals of my own earlier this year.

As for possible roadblocks to such an arrangement, here’s Jaffe again:

The MLB Players Association was said to oppose seven-or eight-team divisions due to the stigma of finishing so low in the standings, and teams in two-team cities voiced concern. … Would the tight-fisted Mets and White Sox want to compete in the same markets with the free-spending Yankees and Cubs?

If the players are reluctant, that represents an obvious impediment; however, this author isn’t so sure that, in the cable and internet area, there’s a need for a major city (New York, L.A., Chicago) to have an anchor in each league. Wouldn’t the game be better off with those rivalries in the same division? The MLBPA would be better off, I’d think, with the new alignment fostering more incentive to compete, thereby increasing payroll spending.

There’s also this: without interleague play, both the All-Star Game and World Series would become more interesting — and perhaps produce greater TV ratings — because they’d offer the novelty of players and clubs that hadn’t faced each other during the regular season. There’s something to be said for an element of mystery.

And perhaps it would be more equitable for Wild Card qualification, as well, featuring a higher concentration of games between the teams fighting for those final spots. Shouldn’t Wild Card races be determined more by head-to-head meetings and intraleague play?

When the 31st and 32nd teams are added — and it seems like MLB is intent on adding them — baseball must change. With change comes opportunity. Expansion will offer a chance to schedule and align in a smarter, more interesting, more efficient, way.





A Cleveland native, FanGraphs writer Travis Sawchik is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, Big Data Baseball. He also contributes to The Athletic Cleveland, and has written for the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, among other outlets. Follow him on Twitter @Travis_Sawchik.

178 Comments
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TakiarMember since 2020
8 years ago

With 162-game (or 156) seasons, I hope interleague play stays. There’s always a thing for seing every player every year (obviously not all pitchers), even if it’s back-to-back two-games series. This doesn’t happen with how it’s built right now. It can also be a sore to face the same team 19 times in a season. Furthermore, it makes no sense, assuming expansion comes to Montreal, to keep Montreal and Toronto in different leagues without interleague play. This format destroys tons of local rivalries. In 1992-1993-1994, Montreal and Toronto were among the kings of baseball, yet they never faced each other (a strike also got in the way).

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Takiar

Interleague play isn’t giong away. Right now folks see every team 1 time in every 6 years at home. That’s not changing much.

I do think 32 is happening sooner rather than later. Only thing with interleague play is we could see 4 4 team divisions per league- where you would see every team 1 time in every 8 years at home.

Jim HMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

Four team divisions are my fear with 32. Make a division title mean something. 8 team divisions would be progress. A division title in the NFL is a joke – “congrats, you beat three other teams”.

Dooduh
8 years ago
Reply to  Jim H

But the converse is a problem – that some teams may be out of contention for decades. Imagine being in 6th or 7th place for 5 months year after year. That would be a tough pill for those cities. In 4 team divisions, teams would potentially be a lot more competitive all the time with teams breaking through more frequently. That would seem to stimulate more excitement throughout the sport as opposed to having franchises that could linger in the depths for years.

CarlKnutsen
8 years ago
Reply to  Dooduh

It might be easier for a perennial non-contender to eventually sneak into the 2nd or 3rd spot in an 8 team division than to win a 4 team division. If a team is bad and they’re in a 4 team division with a powerhouse at the top I think the feeling would be more hopeless.

alpha309
8 years ago
Reply to  Takiar

As interleague is currently worked into the sport, you only get to see every player every 3 years or so, with some exceptions. It is a rotating schedule where you get the opposite leagues East, then Central, then West divisions each in their own year, plus a few “rivalry” matchups. You do not get to see the the Yankees and the Angels in the same year unless you are the Dodgers. or the Cubs and the Rockies in the same year unless you are the White Sox.

jcc
8 years ago

I’m always confused when I read Travis’s posts that propose format changes: is he trying to make baseball more fair for the teams or more fun for the fans? The two objectives don’t always suggest the same outcomes. As someone who thinks fan enjoyment is and must always be goal #1, I’m not that concerned with sentiments like, “Shouldn’t Wild Card races be determined more by head-to-head meetings and intraleague play?” The fact is, interleague play is fun. Fans in every market get to see their teams square off against teams in the opposing league, as opposed to the fans in two markets whose teams make the WS. In fact, I’d like to see the number of in-division games cut to around 12 to allow teams to play more different teams during the regular season.

Joe Joe
8 years ago
Reply to  jcc

Those wretched DBacks stole Randy Johnson from us in free agency! That’s the most pseudo-passion I can come up with for interleague play as an Astros fan. Even then, it was a good move by the DBacks and it was Johnson’s choice. While I see interleague being fun for a lot of teams, I don’t think it is as universally liked as fans with a natural interleague rival assume.

I agree what the fans want should matter a lot. I like in-division games (except those played on West Coast Monday through Thursday) as those tend to cause more swings in the standings than other games. As an Astros fan, getting in a division without West Coast teams would be the best thing.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

I think the hope is that if you play each other enough times, a rivalry actually develops. But there’s also a problem that rivalries are not two-sided. I saw a survey in Sports Illustrated where they asked fans of each college football team to say who their team’s biggest rival was in the division. Something like 90% of fans of Michigan State picked Michigan. Penn State and Wisconsin was split between Michigan and Ohio State (I think?). I think Minnesota picked Wisconsin. Michigan and Ohio State picked each other. I could potentially see Astros fans get excited to play the Braves because they’ve been around longer (maybe? maybe not?) but if so I bet other AL teams would too.

rastronomicals
8 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

As an Astros fan, I’d say the priority if you are going to reshuffle should be to get the Astros back into the NL.

Beyond that, the Mets and the Yankees, the Cubs and the White Sox, Dodgers and Angels should be in opposite leagues.

Interleague should be retained but scaled back.
Go with eight team divisions, with the top two in each division advancing.

Makes sense, so it will never happen.

AwardDinner
8 years ago
Reply to  rastronomicals

As a Mariners fan, I’d say the priority is to get the Astros back into the NL too.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  jcc

I love the geographic rivals concept, and think it should remain central. So the Giants should play the A’s, the Angels should play the Dodgers, the Rays play the Marlins, etc…and that’s it for interleague play. Have them play a few times every year, then keep them in their own leagues for the rest. Or maybe you can do some other interleague play but I think you should play local rivals every year and more than other interleague games.

I think the biggest thing you can do to stoke fan interest is to build rivalries. Baseball rivalries are pretty great because they play each other so often. I wouldn’t want to cut divisional games at all for that reason.

If you want fairness, just have everyone play everyone else in round-robin style for 160-200 games and declare whoever won the most games the champion. Bah. That’s no fun.

emh1969
8 years ago
Reply to  jcc

“The fact is, interleague play is fun.”

Umm..that would be called an opinion, not a fact.

Obviously there are fans who enjoy interleague play, but there are also plenty who don’t care for it. As an Indians fan, I want more games against AL teams, not games against the Reds and (this year) the Dodgers, Giants, Padres, Rockies and Diamondbacks. I can’t think of a single reason why I should care about those games. I would much prefer more games against the Yankees, Red Sox, Blue Jays, Astros, Angels, etc.

Sleepy
8 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

Totally agree.

I tend to think of interleague play like cargo pants–a fad that ran its course years ago.

AJ pro-Preller
8 years ago
Reply to  Sleepy

haha! tell that to a P.O.W….(stab)

Handsome Wes
8 years ago
Reply to  Sleepy

Wait, are my cargo pants not in style?

ashlandateam
8 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

Clearly, you didn’t see Votto and Lindor getting emotional and laying it all on the line trying to win the Ohio Cup. Winning that meant the WORLD to whichever team won it, I’m sure. These contrived interleague rivalries are important!!

jcc
8 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

It’s a figure of speech. *Literally* everyone says “the fact is” sometimes. 😉

emh1969
8 years ago
Reply to  jcc

“Lierally” like this???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvlWZ3mODJA

Chicago Mark
8 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

“I can’t think of a single reason why I should care about those games”

Umm..Wins and Losses?

Sorry, had to do it.

ChippersJonesing
8 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

Because as a Braves fan I like to see AL players that I don’t get to watch. Mike Trout isn’t going to make the playoffs, I was super excited to see him this year (but he was hurt!). I don’t have time to watch the Angels.

Arjon
8 years ago
Reply to  jcc

Interleague play is fun for you, fine. But how much evidence is there that this is a solid majority opinion?

jcc
8 years ago
Reply to  Arjon

Well, there’s this:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/152700202237498

Interleague attendance is 7% higher than comparable intraleague games.

Daniel KingMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  jcc

Teams have been playing the nearest/rival other league team every year. Yankees/mets, Indians/Reds, Cubs/White Sox. It makes sense that attendance between closer teams would be higher.

emh1969
8 years ago
Reply to  jcc

Ummm…that article’s from 2002, when interleague play was still a novelty and had lots of buildup around it. We might want to look at something a wee bit more recent:

“Not surprisingly, attendance at interleague games?—?which was 7 to 20 percent higher than overall attendance every year between 1997 and 2012?—?has dropped considerably since 2013, to the point where it isn’t much different than the average attendance for a typical major league game.”

https://www.theringer.com/2017/6/12/16041046/mlb-20-years-of-interleague-play-4f4bb9e6ec03

(note the 7 to 20 percent figure above are uncorrected for the fact that most interleague games used to take place on weekends, when attendance is generally higher)

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

If the Padres and Giants played in that division this year, they would have gotten killed. Of course, they already got killed, so maybe it would just be more of the same.

smartalec
8 years ago

I’m usually against expansion, but I can’t really quantify my reasoning. But in this case, I’m on board. We can keep 162 game schedule by constructing the following regular series structure (assuming interleague is out, which I am in favor of removing):

2×4 games & 2×3 games home/away intradivison series = 98 intradivision games (14 per team)

1×4 games home/away interdivision series = 64 interdivision games (8 per team)

Have you given any thought to playoff structure? We could increase playoff teams to 6. Division winners (seeds 1 and 2) get a bye, and perhaps borrowing from your post about WBO playoff structure, seeds 5 and 6 have to beat seeds 3 and 4 twice in wild-card playoff to advance to DS.

Da Bear
8 years ago
Reply to  smartalec

The problem with this structure is that you have 22 4-game series and only 14 3-game series, which can’t squeeze neatly into 7-day weeks without breaking up the whole “Friday-Saturday-Sunday is a series against a single opponent” tradition and floating the off-days.

Mahoney
8 years ago
Reply to  smartalec

@smartalec Holy crap I was thinking the exact same thing this weekend (even before Travis’s article), the only difference being seed 6 playing seed 5 in an afternoon game at seed 4’s park, with the winner playing seed 4 that evening (October Madness!).

But to Da Bear’s point, you do need to have more 3-game series than 4-game series. Since interleague play isn’t likely to go away (sigh), you can do 12 games vs. each division opponent (84) and 6 games vs. each interdivision opponent (48), leaving 30 interleague games to be split among your “historic rival” (6) and a 3-game series vs. all the teams in one division (alternating each year) for the remaining 24. Done.

grumbly1
8 years ago

If the divisions will be geographical, then don’t revert to the illogical alignments in the past…the Twins (in the example above) would be AL West, and the White Sox AL East (assuming you don’t mess with any AL/NL switches)

Sleepy
8 years ago
Reply to  grumbly1

I’m assuming the Twins/Sox thing above was a typo. Or maybe the author just remembers the Braves in the NL West more fondly than most…

alpha309
8 years ago
Reply to  grumbly1

Not too sure how much it matters, but I could be wrong. But I think the Chicago Sox would be Geographically closer to every city in the AL west as listed above, with the exceptions of Seattle, and possibly Oakland. Chicago Sox are also closer to all the AL east cities as well. Honestly, that particular area of the world, if you get stuck going west, you are screwed, for either one. Same would be for KC, Mil, CHC, STL, as well. It would make their road trips much longer more frequently and they would probably all suffer from it.

hecarriedhisbatMember since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to  alpha309

This article fails to mention reducing travel and creating an off day each week, which according to Ringolsby is one of the reasons for radical re-alignment.

Cubs-Dodgers, White Sox-Mariners, Toronto-Tampa, Montreal-Miami being in same division is just shifting the current AL West set-up to other teams.

Few could have envisioned instant replay and the Posey Rule just a few years back. MLB can keep the AL and NL, even DH in AL only (though I bet it’s going universal) and make sensible geographical divisions.

david k
8 years ago
Reply to  alpha309

Not only are those Midwest teams screwed by travel duration, but also by road game start times. If you’re in the central time zone and the games start at 7 PM pacific time, it won’t start till 9 PM central, and most of the fans will go to sleep and miss significant parts of the game (young fans would miss ALL of the game).

RyanMember since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to  david k

Timing of games is a crucial issue for me… and I live on the west coast! Even local 7:10PM game times are too late for the typical weeknight. Most fans tune out by 10PM and that ignores all the fans in the east… I’ve been hoping for years that west coast games would slide forward, even by an hour.

carterMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Ryan

But see this is how we differ. I used to work on the east coast and my favorite thing was lying in bed at 1am and refreshing my fantasy line ups while watching West coast games.

DBPanterA
8 years ago
Reply to  Ryan

I agree 100%. If we are looking at fundamental change to MLB with proposed divisions, I feel we should also acknowledge the fact that the fans of tomorrow (the kids) simply cannot stay up to watch many of these games. I am all for 6:00 PM local starts across all of MLB. I love that most teams do 1:00 PM Sunday starts, and I would like to see more 3:00 PM Saturday starts as well.

RayTSB
8 years ago

The idea that interleague play is bad because it undercuts the novelty of great NL players facing great AL players in the World Series is undone by the fact that there are some great players on teams that aren’t making the WS anytime soon. Trout might face Kershaw if the natural rivalries are kept but he won’t face Scherzer or Strasburg, just like Votto won’t be facing Sale or Kluber.

The Real McNulty
8 years ago
Reply to  RayTSB

Yes, the logic held up better when there were 8 teams per league, not 15

Johnnie TMember since 2024
8 years ago

The problem is with expanding to 32 teams is that there are no really good markets out there to expand to. We are plumb out of big cities without teams. Montreal is iffy and Portland is only a little bigger than Pittsburgh or Cincinnati. Do we really want to add two more small market clubs just to get to round numbers?

Frankly, I would be more worried about how much longer teams in stagnating or declining markets, namely Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, KC, Cincy, and Cleveland, can economically support big league clubs…

Chickensoup
8 years ago
Reply to  Johnnie T

I don’t know why you put Milwaukee on the list. They are one of the best attended teams in the league (tops for attendance/market size) and could spend more towards the middle if they were not rebuilding (this years results were extremely unexpected). They will also be able to get a new tv deal soon (though I don’t suspect it’ll be earth shatteringly high)

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Johnnie T

If we look at U.S. cities that have an NBA or NHL team but no MLB team – I’m excluding NFL because the national TV money and once per week games create some meaningfully different market dynamics – I come up with the following alphabetical list:

Buffalo
Charlotte
Columbus
Indianapolis
Las Vegas
Memphis
Nashville
New Orleans
Oklahoma City
Orlando
Portland
Salt Lake City
San Antonio

Most people would add Montreal and Austin to the list of candidates. These aren’t all great candidates once we take into account specifics of local markets and proximity to existing MLB teams, but it doesn’t seem crazy to think that MLB can find two more cities from this list of fifteen options.

AJ pro-Preller
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Every other major sports league wants in on Vegas, the MLB is no different $$$$$

SucramRenrutMember since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Vancouver BC!

v2miccaMember since 2016
8 years ago

I also suspect that the next major re-alignment will see the universal adoption of the DH in both leagues.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  v2micca

This is true, but sad nonetheless. #BanTheDH

Fredchuckdave
8 years ago
Reply to  v2micca

Also more hot TTO action, eventually we’ll have a player hit 100 HR, walk 100 times, and strike out 450 times.

carterMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Fredchuckdave

Well I sure hope so. He’d be an all-time great and who gives a shit about a groundball to 2nd?

MikeInNJ
8 years ago

Interleague has lost its luster since it’s become an everyday of the season thing instead of a special part of the schedule. Mets-Yankees was better with 3 games in both parks as well. No one cares when the Mets play the A’s.

I loathe the idea of expansion when pitching talent, in particular, is so hard to come by. 2 more teams will just water things down more, and it will favor large market teams who can spend away. Small market teams need the cheaper talent to compete.

And just how will a playoff system work better with even numbers of teams? Are you going to give a bye to the top 2 teams in each league ala the NFL? Baseball is hardly the same sport. Much easier for a good team to pad their W’s if the rest of their division is weak. How’s that fair?

And if there is a bye, you’ll have a baseball team sitting around for 5 days waiting to play (assuming perhaps a best-of-three first series)? Ick!

If it’s 8-team divisions, the #2 and #3 teams play each other off? Again, ick!

And I gave my last big ick to the idea of a wholesale geographic restructuring. Talk about a blow to the entire game’s history. No, thank you!

WARrior
8 years ago
Reply to  MikeInNJ

Yes, with 8-team divisions, there would be two WCs in each division. They would play each other–or maybe would play the WCs in the other division–and the two winners would play the two division winners.

Matt
8 years ago
Reply to  WARrior

You would likely give the top team a bye, as the #2 and #3 teams in a division play a best-of-3 (or best of 1) to advance. It would likely end up something like the NHL, where you stay within your division until the LCS. This way, you’re going to have a Yankees-Red Sox series happen an awful lot.

You can shorten the “wildcard” round by not having a travel day. Since it’s divisional, there shouldn’t be large travel needed (although you could still see Seattle-Chicago or Seattle-Houston), so skipping the travel day is not big. Then the division winner is only waiting for about 4-5 days. Heck, you could even launch right into the division series, so that the “wildcard” teams might have to play 5 games in a row in 3 different cities before an off-day.

It’s a big change, but they did it a couple years ago in the NHL, people were very hesitant back then, but I think the reviews have been very positive. I’m sure MLB fans can get used to it as well.

The Real McNulty
8 years ago
Reply to  Matt

days off will not be decreasing. The harms of travel might be lessened, but there will be equal if not more days off.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Matt

One problem with taking travel days out of the post-season MLB schedule is that it can really mess up the schedule if there are rain-outs, potentially to the point of having a cascading impact on subsequent rounds of the playoffs depending on specifics.

carterMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  MikeInNJ

“Pitching talent is hard to come by”.. What game are you watching?

carterMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  MikeInNJ

Water what down? The pitchers now are so much better than at any point in history. Really, it’s not even close.

James
8 years ago

Obviously things would change by the time these changes would occur, but imagine how dominant the Nationals would have been in that division this year?

mike sixelMember since 2016
8 years ago

Also known as the “we hate the Twins”proposal…. This would pretty much kill all interest in Minnesota. No rivalries, losing to the Yankees and other high priced teams every year, why even bother having a team there now?

Eight divisions makes so much more sense.

Paul G.Member since 2016
8 years ago

I think it is obvious that the MLB wants 32 teams and if things had gone better for the Florida expansion teams there would be 32 teams now. It eliminates the “6 teams in one division with 4 in another” issue, and it eliminates mandatory interleague play. MLB always wanted the nice 2 leagues, 4 divisions per league setup.

That’s why I am not expecting that expansion is imminent. If MLB thought they could have expanded to 32 teams successfully at any point, they would have done so already. When the top candidates are Montreal, a city where their prior franchise legitimately failed – not left for greener pastures to make more money but completely failed – and Portland, a city whose minor league baseball team is in short-A, I do not see this as a serious proposition.

Related, woe betide whatever two teams get shoehorned into the Yankees/Red Sox 4 team division.

The Real McNulty
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul G.

I wouldn’t dismiss Montreal so quickly. It was complicated with many factors converging to make it a bad situation.

Paul G.Member since 2016
8 years ago

I do realize that the Montreal situation is complicated. Regardless, the team left after the 2004 season after limping along for years. It does not inspire confidence in the endeavor when that is the better of the two options.

This is not the 1950s and 1960s where population growth and transportation improvements opened up many new markets. The choices are a large but failed market, a bunch of relatively small markets, and Mexico. If MLB really thought those were great options, Tampa or Oakland would have already moved there.

david k
8 years ago

Yes, there were many factors, but a large part of the issue was that Montreal is largely French and was not a desirable market for free agents. It’s hard to compete if free agents won’t go there. Yes, I know there are cities right now with a similar problem, but it’s more like they can’t lure free agents because they don’t have enough money to spend, and sure there are some more attractive cities than others, both in terms of glamor and endorsement potential, the latter of which is a big minus for Montreal.

Also, there’s the exchange rate of currency, as well as the higher tax rate in Canada. I think the exchange rate isn’t as bad now as it was in the 80s/90s, but higher taxes in Canada still remain. Not to mention how COLD it is up there in the winter (yeah, even colder then Minnesota). These issues haven’t changed. Ownership is another story…

Powder Blues
8 years ago
Reply to  david k

Couple points to consider:

– Montreal is cold in the winter? Players go home in the winter.
– Free agents? Players go where the money is.
– Money? Since 2004, league revenue has exploded, and TV deals have evened the playing field substantially.
– Exchange rate? All MLB players get paid in US dollars. Not an issue for the players.

The biggest roadblock, IMO, is the stadium. Stade Olympique was outdated by about 1990, and and it’s only gotten worse. A new, modern stadium would need to be built.
A secondary issue is ownership – they’d need to have deep pockets, like the Jays, to offset the disadvantages of playing in Canada. A corporation would be best suited to own the club, where they can move their dollars around creatively. Desjardins, the Westons, Bell Canada, could all afford to own the Expos as a side project. Bell would be particularly interesting, pitting Rogers vs Bell in Canada.

Montreal has the population, the wealth, and the historical interest (they drew above the NL avg for many years) to be a great choice.

HughesMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Powder Blues

Exchange rates matter for the franchise, not the players. That was part of the reason owners were willing to go a full season in the NHL lockout in 2004-05. Canada lost two franchises (Winnipeg and Quebec City). Winnipeg is back now, but they needed the cap certainty.

As for taxes, provincial swing is high. Toronto isn’t going to be too different from California, but Montreal faces much higher provincial income taxes.

Montreal would play in a dome.

carterMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul G.

If the percent of Fangraphs writers who live in Oregon in anyway correlates to the fandom there…

Chickensoup
8 years ago

The big problem with 4 divisions vs 8 is that travel schedules are in no way equitable. Padres to Brewers in division is 2 time zones and almost 1800 miles. It basically requires that if they go to Milwaukee they have to go to Chicago and St Louis purely for fairness in travel sake. Rays to Twins looks terrible. Long flight in followed by a time zone change back East? No thanks.

They could make things much more equal with getting rid of the AL/NL split, which is unpopular with some fans. Or you could go 8 divisions and actually keep teams closer together (sorry Rockies, no one is that close). Or you could do both but keep multi-team cities in separate leagues. There’s lots of ways to skin the cat but having a division that covers something like 65-70% of the nation isn’t one of them IMO.

Matt
8 years ago
Reply to  Chickensoup

The initial article proposal went entirely geographic, so that the West division’s furthest East team was Arizona, the mid-west was basically Colorado through Chicago, and then the East gets split North-South. The “loser” is Minnesota, who really should belong in the MidWest, but it’s really hard to take someone out of there.

Unless I guess if the second city to be added was someone like Charlotte instead of Portland. In that case, you could move Colorado to the West, Minn to the Mid-West, Charlotte to the East, and then likely one of Pittsburgh or Cinci to the North.

Chickensoup
8 years ago
Reply to  Matt

In fairness, his original proposal at BA had 1/3 of all teams switching leagues or getting rid of league differences. It would be completely unpalatable to have DH/no-DH in the same division. Travis’ proposal was keeping AL/NL which is strictly unfair to certain teams because of where teams currently reside. One side would have to give in to even consider 8 team divisions

The Real McNulty
8 years ago
Reply to  Chickensoup

and if a team goes on a 3 team, interleague roadtrip, the game is played by the visitor’s rules. It allows the interleague matchups to happen and exposes fans to the other version of baseball

Spa City
8 years ago

I know I am in the minority. But I think 30 teams is already too many. Unless a team like Pitt, Tampa, Cincy (etc.) manages to overcome huge obstacles and strike in their “window,” it could easily be entire lifetimes between championships.

I buy the MLB package and watch as many games as possible, and I still rarely get to watch all the teams. I think adding more teams is a negative. I would much rather see teams contracted.

I also hate the idea of further eroding the history by having teams switch leagues. The AL and NL used to be distinct leagues. It seems different now.

Not suggesting going back to 1950 with only 16, long standing teams. Some change is good. But I think we already have more than enough teams.

alpha309
8 years ago
Reply to  Spa City

The Cubs are large market and they went literal lifetimes between championships. With fewer teams for most of that stretch. I would argue, that while yes, on average with more teams it would take longer to win a championship, there is plenty of evidence that is already the case and a well run team will always have a better chance than a team that is disorganized.

dl80Member since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  alpha309

Red Sox, too.

EasyenoughMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Spa City

In 1950 the US population was 152 million. Now it’s around 325 and far more urban. Getting in to the stadium to see a game is now an auction for around four times as many people. Expansion doesn’t fix it, but it’s the right direction.

The real solution, that can’t or won’t happen, is to put the new teams in the biggest markets to improve competitive balance and to create more geographic rivalries.

Tom Jitterbug
8 years ago
Reply to  Easyenough

Yeah, I’ve never understood why, for example, London has six top-flight football clubs, but no US city has more than two franchises in the same sports league. (with the arguable exception of NYC in the NHL, with the Rangers/Islanders/NJ Devils)

I mean, I know it’s because the established NY/LA/Chicago franchises would block expansion like that in their cities/metros, but what prevented the same from happening in the Premiership?

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Tom Jitterbug

I don’t know enough about the history of the EPL to offer a view on how and why it evolved as it did, but the arithmetic that stands out is that London is simply so much bigger relative to the UK than any metro area in the U.S.

The population of the London metro area is about 20% of the population of the UK (or alternately, about 25% of the population of England).

By contrast, the New York metro area is obviously very large but it totals about 6% of the U.S. population.

BufordMember since 2016
8 years ago

– Eight four-team divisions with the winners seeded 1 to 8 based on records.
– #1 plays #8, #2 plays #7, #3 plays #6, #4 plays #5 then re-seed after 1st round.
– No wild cards – 25% of teams making the playoffs is enough – but I could live with Wild Cards if baseball is adamant.

> Dodgers–Angels–San Francisco–Oakland
> Seattle–Portland–San Diego–Arizona
> Houston–Texas–Colorado–Minnesota
> Milwauukee–Detroit–Toronto–Montreal
> White Sox–Cubs–St. Louis–Kansas City
> Cleveland–Cincinnati–Pittsburgh–Philadelphia
> Yankees–Mets–Boston–Atlanta
> Baltimore–Washington–Tampa Bay–Miami

alpha309
8 years ago
Reply to  Buford

your divisions make no sense. If you are going strictly geographical it would be.

LAD-LAA-SD-ARI
OAK-SF-PORT-SEA
COL-TEX-HOU-KC
STL-MIL-CHC-CHW
MIN-DET-CIN-CLE
BOS-MON-TOR-PHI
NYY-NYM-PIT- BAL
TB-MIA-ATL-WAS

Minnesota would probably get slightly screwed in the deal just because both CHI teams and MIL are so close, and STL is almost as close. The eastern teams are a jumbled mess, mainly because all the teams are so close, but strictly geographic, it is almost impossible to do that doesn’t screw over a team so it misses one of the close rivals. There is no good place to put the Pennsylvania teams as they would be caught between, same with the WAS BAL combo. I guess those four could be lumped together, but then there is no natural team that makes sense to go with the Florida/Georgia combo and that team gets screwed more than the others to travel.

Simply it just makes sense to have two leagues, 4 divisions each, rather than jumble everyone up. You would seperate the teams as such.

LAD-SD-SF-ARI
CHC-STL-MIL-MIN (league switch involved)
CIN-PIT-NYM-MON (expanison team)
ATL-PHI-MIA-WAS

SEA-LAA-OAK- POR (expansion team)
COL-KC-HOU-TEX (league switch)
DET-CLE-CHW-TOR
NYY-BOS-BAL-TB

This would give COL less travel by playing the team closest to them, and only going to Texas instead of the entire western seaboard, hopefully cutting their travel just a little bit, but nothing is that close to them. MIN switching leagues lets them play the three teams (not counting the White Sox) that are closest to them on a regular basis and prevents the do you screw the Twins or the White Sox conversation. The AL east would possibly be screwed the most by travel and having to go from Boston to Tampa. A league switch here wouldn’t really help, a whole lot since the other option is to have WAS and TB switch leagues, but that would mess up the whole big market, small market balance that is going on, and at least they are all in the same time zone.

BufordMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  alpha309

It was never meant to be strictly geographical. Maintaining old rivalries like Yankees/Red Sox and Dodgers/Giants plus in-state matchups like Cardinals/Royals and Orioles/Nationals seemed important.

alpha309
8 years ago
Reply to  Buford

But STL/KC and BAL/WAS are not nearly as important as STL/CHC or WAS/NYM. The rivalries there have a direct impact on who goes to the playoffs and who doesn’t, so it would make much more sense to keep as many existing divisions as together as possible to keep those rivalries. The inter league rivalries can still exist in their current format if it is determined that it is for the best, with no changes.

That said, with rejumbling the divisions, there are always going to be odd teams out. Those teams are going to lose out something and have to develop newer rivalries. I believe it is best to keep each division with 3 of the existing 5 teams together, and if possible 4, and the newly created 4th divisions having at least 2 teams that were together in a previous division.

gbmontgo
8 years ago

why not implement league-wide DH and make the concept of “interleague” moot? that way you could make more truly geographic divisions and reduce the travel even further

OddBall Herrera
8 years ago

I’m just deeply skeptical about the Montreal idea. In the U.S. at least people seem to like wearing the hats around because they have an indie vintage feel to them, which you’ll ruin if you build an actual team. Admittedly I haven’t been to Montreal in about a decade so I obviously don’t have my finger on the pulse there. I just think there is a high chance this ends up like the NFL expansion in L.A. where we overthink the theory of it and ignore how it has worked out in practice.

alpha309
8 years ago

To counter the NFL point, the Raiders as a lone team would work in LA quite well. The fact that there are two teams in LA, that no one in the city really cared about before they came, doesn’t really help the situation. SD was always a rival and hated team, and STL moved so far away and was never as popular here as the Raiders to begin with. LA is a Raiders town, but the Raiders don’t play here.

Also the stadiums here are either WAY too big for an NFL team, or WAY too small.

The planning to move here was crap

OddBall Herrera
8 years ago
Reply to  alpha309

True, the Chargers basically did the equivalent of your buddy whose ‘plan’ is to couch surf while he looks for apartments. The part I see here that’s the same though is that people look at the population and demographics and conclude it just makes too much sense without, in my opinion, putting adequate weight on past results.

I just think the idea of Montreal as a clear front runner should be looked at more closely, because I think it’s rooted at least a little in wishful thinking on the part of fans who aren’t necessarily the people who would be relied on to support/fund the team.

Heck, if you want to go Canada I don’t see why no one ever talks about Vancouver. Much more culturally similar to the U.S. than Montreal, demographics are good for baseball (imagine the inroads that team could make in Japanese markets for example), in the same or higher class of cities size-wise as other places that are talked about, though admittedly much smaller than Montreal, natural rivalry you could build with Seattle…

Paul G.Member since 2016
8 years ago

From what I read, the Chargers really did not want to move to L.A., but they were put in a situation where they really had no choice because of the money put on the table. If they knew that attendance was going to be like it is, I think they would have quickly reconsidered.

Paul G.Member since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul G.

As for Vancouver, it is another city with a minor league presence in Short-A. It was also the site of a failed NBA team. Not encouraging.

alpha309
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul G.

The attendance for the Chargers was never going to be good in LA. They are playing in a tiny stadium. Then add in the fact that the vast majority of people who live in Los Angeles root for the Raiders as their team, which they are used to rooting against the Chargers, and it is a disaster. Everyone in LA wants the Chargers to lose, and then you move to the city and expect them to root for you?

It is like moving the Red Sox to NY or the Cardinals to Chicago. Never would work out.

SucramRenrutMember since 2017
8 years ago

100% Vancouver.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  alpha309

It does seem like a metro area that can support 2 teams each in MLB, the NBA, and NHL has to be able to support at least 1 NFL team. The dynamics for drawing game attendance from a broad geographic swathe of the LA area also seem better for NFL: 1 game per week, usually on Sunday.

I agree that the LA market has been mishandled by the NFL. As a contrast, the Houston Texans have done pretty well as an expansion franchise that started playing games a few years after the Oilers left. I think it helped that as an expansion franchise they were able to have a new stadium ready for their first year of play, plus several years to market to fans after the franchise was awarded.

The Real McNulty
8 years ago

are you serious? You are comparing an NFL city’s repeated failure to show an interest in a team to Montreal’s situation? And you’re concerned that Americans won’t be able to wear a vintage hat?

OddBall Herrera
8 years ago

I’m not concerned, I am saying that Expos merchandise sales *may* be a poor indicator of actual support for the team.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago

I don’t think that LA repeatedly failed to show interest in an NFL team. It seems to me that it was a combination of bad ownership, some bad years from teams, not great stadium situations, and the unintended consequence of what the NFL local blackout rule did to struggling teams (one of which had a 90,000+ seat stadium).

The Raiders turned down a plan for a new privately-financed stadium in LA when they left in 1995, and I think it’s very possible that the NFL could have done fine staying in LA if that stadium had been built.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

Was in Montreal recently. The Expos are still a thing. Surprised the heck out of me. If there is an expansion team, Montreal should deservedly stand at the front of the line to get one.

Daniel
8 years ago

Midwest teams playing a lot of teams on the west coast is awful. Nothing drives down enjoyment of a game more than a 9PM or later start time.

Tom Jitterbug
8 years ago
Reply to  Daniel

From the west coast perspective, it’s also a pain catching a game when your team is playing on the east coast or in the Midwest. A 4PM start time means, for a 9-5 office drone like myself:

* If you’re lucky enough to be able to watch games at work, you can watch the first few innings over that hour, and decide whether to stay late to finish the game or go home and risk missing action on your commute.
* If not, punch out around 5PM and, depending on your commute, get home in time for the 6th or 8th inning or so.

I suppose that I’d rather miss the start of a game and see the finish than vice versa (as my friends in Central/Eastern time zones experience on west coast trips), but it’s still a bummer.

AndyMember since 2026
8 years ago

IF expansion is imminent, then yeah, it’s time to fix all sorts of things. Go all DH. Four 8-team divisions, sure. Address some of these roster flexibility issues we read about all summer. Do some AL/NL swapping to try to have regional partners in opposing leauges (eg. Phillies to AL and HOU back to NL). Somebody’s going to not like how that shakes out, but it can be fixed next time a team folds or moves cities. Keep interleague, but slim it down. Shorten back to 154 games if thats’ what it takes. No easy way to do all of it, but probably easier to do it all than to piece-meal. Here’s how a commissioner can earn his place in history. If expansion needs to happen lets go.

alpha309
8 years ago
Reply to  Andy

HOU in AL makes a lot more sense than NL. It relieves both Texas teams on having to be screwed like the Rockies. Making an 8 division league without the KC, TEX, HOU, COL division would just be a complete waste of a solution to 3 out of the 4 teams. KC does get a slight screw job in it, but it is the fix to those 3 teams having to travel twice as far as every other team in baseball (except Seattle) They would all still travel more, but it would cut their travel down a bit.

Adam SMember since 2016
8 years ago

Sigh. The Ringolsby piece and this response is a reminder that we’re hitting one of the lulls in the baseball season where writers gotta write but there isn’t much to write about. Sure the World Series starts tomorrow, but for 90% of fans their team’s season is over. It’s too late to talk about this year, but too soon to speculate on free agents.

Anyway, I doubt we’ll go back to 4 divisions as that makes the travel problems worse — the “midwest” teams in the same division with west coast teams is the reason baseball shifted to 6 divisions.

Also I think Portland is too small of a market for expansion. Baseball would be better served adding a third team in New York, LA/OC, or Texas.

Chickensoup
8 years ago
Reply to  Adam S

Another huge negative to 4 divisions is the money disparity. The more large markets in a division, the lower the chance a small market team has of competing for a division title in that division. It’s already hard for the Rays to win the division when both the Yankees and Red Sox (one of the two is always a division contender) now add the Tigers (currently rebuilding at the present). Or Milwaukee in the article presented divisions. Is there going to be a lot of years where the Giants, Dodgers, and Cubs are all not vying for a division title? Seems unlikely.

Team expansion already has negative side for small markets due to increased labor costs (same number of good players but more teams means higher FA prices). pushing players towards wealthier teams while also putting more wealthy teams in the same division spells disaster for small markets

Paul G.Member since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Adam S

San Diego is 2 hours from L.A. and 90 minutes from Anaheim. Essentially there are already 3 teams in the area and the Padres are not exactly doing great in that arrangement.

New York has already tried the 3 team experiment. It failed. I still do not know why anyone wants to try that again. It’s not like the NHL situation is encouraging on that front. Best case is the third team becomes a small market team in the largest market in the country.

Texas is interesting, but the only scenario that seems to be the least bit plausible is the Austin/San Antonio I-35 team which requires a minor miracle on the logistics.

AJ pro-Preller
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul G.

“…and the Padres are not exactly doing great in that arrangement.”
Don’t know why you are saying this…better attendance than a few “contending” teams in what was a rebuild year from the start.
and…We got Tatis Jr for James “freaking” Shields!!!! FTW

http://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance

San Antonio just lost their WNBA team sooo….yea

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

I don’t think that inability to support a WNBA team has much relevance to any other sport.

Several teams have folded or moved from cities that support other pro sports franchises just fine (e.g., Houston, Detroit, Cleveland). Atlanta, Chicago, and probably some other markets also look pretty marginal based on attendance over time ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_National_Basketball_Association#Finance ).

Manute Bol sings better than this
8 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

lol

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul G.

I think a very big problem with the third team in a market idea is how important local TV deals with RSN’s are for revenue in the current MLB economic structure.

Craig Edwards has written previously about the apparent problem with RSN saturation in some of the large multi-team markets ( https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-dodgers-tv-mess-isnt-over/ ). That suggests a tough situation for a third expansion franchise. It would logically share its local market area with the other two teams, which is the current norm for two-team cities but something that San Diego doesn’t have to do.

So it’s easy to see that third team being stuck in a cycle caused by being bad at inception, like a typical expansion team, and also struggling to get the revenue and exposure of broad local TV carriage. It’s easy to see that team stuck in a cycle of low performance and low revenue that’s very tough to break and is perhaps even worse than a small-market team, because at least there the team doesn’t have local MLB competition.

carterMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Adam S

The blazers and the timbers get turnout. Unfortunately baseball fans tend to be white males. Guess what Portland is? The whitest city in America.

I’m sure the mlb is researching factors beyond population and income when determining which cities make the most sense for expansion. That is what Portland has that most of the other cities don’t.

dannm
8 years ago

The only issue with the 4-of-8 alignment Travis proposes is TV ratings. The Chicago, Texas, and Missouri teams would have an inordinate number of 9pm Central start times during the season, as opposed to one or two swings along the coast that could be wedged into some weekend afternoons. Likewise, all those western teams would be stuck with a bunch of 11:20am start times on the road against the Cubs 3-4 series a year, including Fridays when the Cubs can’t host night games.

It seems like realignment plans always start out east and move west. It makes more sense to figure divisions out west to east, since even lumping Miami and Montreal together is just a 3h30 flight in one timezone, as opposed to 4h10 with a 2-hour difference for Chicago and San Diego.

California, Seattle, Portland, and Arizona makes an easy division of 8, and Colorado’s travel to Minneapolis or Chicago or Houston wouldn’t be onerous.

The Real McNulty
8 years ago
Reply to  dannm

and you can throw Colorado a bone by giving them an otherwise more favorable schedule in terms of strength of opponent, payroll, and traveling. By a small margin of course

alpha309
8 years ago
Reply to  dannm

I 100% agree you work from the most sparsely dense areas (the west) and work to the areas with more density. That way you get much better ideas on ways to improve.

Baseball realignment I actually fix Colorado first, as they are the biggest oddball. I actually think they are going to be the most screwed no matter how you do it, but the Texas teams just seem to make the most sense to lump together with. Denver is much closer to those teams and KC than any other team, except maybe ARI (but leaving ARI out of the LA/SD/SF group creates a problem on what would be the 4th team there, as I prefer the 4 teams, 4 divisions approach instead of 8×2)

Then SEA is the next biggest issue, but if Porland/Vancouver is the expansion choice, it almost solves itself with LAA and OAK. Once those two teams are fixed for their travel, almost everything else naturally falls into place once you decide which team to swap with COL.

Michael K Woods
8 years ago

I do not like the idea of more teams because this will only make it harder for the best teams to win the World Series. In baseball it currently takes about 69 games for a team’s true talent variance to be greater than or equal to the random variance (example: this year for 75 games the Dodgers were in 3rd place! in the division and in the end it was not a close race). So any expansion that allows for more playoff teams will make it harder for the best to win a campionship. Do we really want to live in a game were the best team in the playoffs has less than a 20% average chance of going all the way? In the pre expansion era the best teams won W.S. more often. Was that really a bad thing?

Joey Butts
8 years ago

Even back when there were only two teams in the playoffs, the best team only won the World Series about 60% of the time. It’s too bad that that number has gone down, but a WS win was never some unimpeachable thing. If it has to be watered down so that more teams, and more fans, can enjoy the postseason glory, so be it.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago

While I understand that it’s difficult to set up a perfect alignment, Travis’ proposal in some ways goes quite a bit backward from the time zone and distance discrepancies of the current divisions.

There is currently only one division with teams located in time zones two hours apart: the AL West with 3 teams in the Pacific Time Zone (Angels, A’s, Mariners) and 2 teams in the Central Time Zone (Astros and Rangers). His proposed NL West and AL West both combine teams from the Pacific Time Zone to the Central Time Zone.

I think that the affected teams and the MLBPA would dislike the travel impact of those proposed divisions. I also think that several of the affected teams would dislike the local TV ratings impact of having so many road games that start either too early locally (for Pacific Time Zone teams) or too late locally (Central Time Zone teams).

Jongro
8 years ago

Every time I see a proposed realignment that puts both teams in 2-team cities in the same division it sets of big NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! klaxons in my head. Part of the joy in living in a 2-team city is seeing all the teams in both leagues come through town every season.The chance that both teams could compete for titles in different divisions is far more tantalizing than any direct comparisons in the same division. In fact, the idea of them competing in the same division could bring projectile spew.

paccus
8 years ago

if you’d be okay with swapping houston back to the NL for either of Rockies or Dbacks, could end up with pretty ideal 4-team divisions if expansion goes to Montreal/Charlotte:

Giants, Dodgers, Padres, Diamondbacks
Cardinals, Cubs, Astros, Brewers
Expos*, Mets, Phillies, Nationals
Reds, Pirates, Marlins, Braves

A’s, Angels, Mariners, Rockies
Royals, White Sox, Rangers, Twins
Blue Jays, Yankees, Red Sox, Orioles
Indians, Tigers, Rays, Charlotte*

alpha309
8 years ago
Reply to  paccus

The best swap is Colorado to AL, Minnesota to NL

The Real McNulty
8 years ago
Reply to  alpha309

who has better intraleague rivalries, compared to possible interleague rivalries, Minnesota or Houston? As a Cardinals fan, I would want to see the STL-HOU rivalry start back up, and I’m sure other NLC teams also would like to play HOU. More than ALW teams outside of the Rangers

alpha309
8 years ago

My proposed COL/MIN swap does several great things for rivalries.

1. Colorado has no natural rivalries. Their 2 best options for rivalries are KC (the closest team to them) SEA (Another team with no natural rivalries, but can be solved with adding a Portland or Vancouver) and the Texas teams. ARI could have worked, but they are much closer to LA and SD so that rivalry seems more natural.
2. It lets the Texas rivalry grow. TEX and HOU will be a bigger rivalry than STL and HOU could have ever been, especially since STL and CHC already exist.
3. It allows MIN to resume their most natural rival in MIL. CHC already has a great rivalry with STL, a growing and getting better one with MIL and MIN can easily be pulled into that.
4. It creates a new rivalry with STL and MIN as two smaller market teams that have a reputation (though MIN has been much worse at it recently) of being two small market teams that find ways at success, and puts them against each other.

To me, the only time it felt like HOU and STL even mattered was in the midst of HOU’s world series run, and only because both teams were good at the same time. You would get the same effect if you had SEA and HOU both being great at the same time right now. If they were standing in each other’s way to go to the next step, they would be at each other’s necks.

The best way to fuel rivalries is to have as many divisional opponents as possible within a 1 hour flight as possible. The below possible realignment proposal would give most teams 3 teams within 90 minutes flight time between them, most of the divisions would have all 4 teams within that range. SEA, MIA and TB would be 2 hour flights from the furthest locations from their furthest division rivals, but it keeps every division, with 2 exceptions (CHW and COL) in the same time zone as the rest of their competition The KC/COL/TEX/HOU would have a little more travel time on average than the rest of the league, but it would alleviate travel time for 3 of the teams in the division.

LAD-SD-SF-ARI
CHC-STL-MIL-MIN
CIN-PIT-NYM-MON
ATL-PHI-MIA-WAS

SEA-LAA-OAK-POR
COL-KC-HOU-TEX
DET-CLE-CHW-TOR
NYY-BOS-BAL-TB

carterMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  alpha309

Colorado to AL +Otani, boom

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  alpha309

It’s an interesting idea, and I particularly like your western divisions. I feel pretty strongly, though, that PHI and NYM should be in the same division, ideally with WAS.

That could be something like keeping everything the same except:

PHI-WAS-NYM-MON and
CIN-PIT-ATL-MIA

Though I admit that the latter division seems to be sort of throwing together the leftovers (a bit like the AFC South).

One other idea is if the expansion cities are instead Portland and Charlotte, which could create a natural Southeast grouping if the Rays change leagues but Minnesota stays in the AL.

That could be:

LAD-SD-SF-ARI
CHC-STL-MIL-CIN
PHI-PIT-NYM-WAS
ATL-Charlotte-MIA-TB

SEA-LAA-OAK-POR
COL-KC-HOU-TEX
DET-CLE-CHW-MIN
NYY-BOS-BAL-TOR

This alignment would also continue the precedent set with the Brewers and Astros: only franchises without a World Series championship move between leagues.

Sultan of Say
8 years ago

I think this would be a pretty nice 8 division alignment:
NL West: SF, LAD, SD, ARI
NL Central: COL, TEX, HOU, KC
NL North: Cubs, STL, CIN, CLE
NL East: PIT, Mets, PHI, WAS

AL West: SEA, LAA, OAK, Portland
AL Central: MIL, MIN, White Sox, DET
AL South: TB, MIA, ATL, BAL
AL East: NYY, BOS, TOR, Montreal

Only six teams change leagues, plus HOU and MIL go back to where they used to be and Marlins don’t have the history to care.

I see this creating several rivalries: TB-MIA, Montreal-TOR, TEX-HOU, SEA-Portland.
I see it preserving long standing rivalries: NYY-BOS, Cubs-STL, SF-LAD.

Complaints?

TommyLasordid
8 years ago
Reply to  Sultan of Say

Flip CLE and MIL and you eliminate two of the six league changes.

tuggernutsMember since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to  TommyLasordid

Mixed feelings about moving MIL back to the AL. Sure, we started there, but most of my life they’ve been in the NL. I’m sure I could learn to hate the twins, but not hating the Cubs and Cardinals as often would leave a hate-void in my heart the size of Chicago.

chasfhMember since 2018
8 years ago

Two key structural problems with two eight-team division involves (1) time zones and (2) travel.

In this configuration, there would be several Central Time teams in division with Pacific time teams. In an unbalanced schedule scenario a Central team would be traveling twice, maybe three times, to the west coast a season, leading to start times after 9pm local and diminished value to TV deals. It’s not great for Pacific teams traveling two or three times to Central Time opponents, either, as games would start around 5pm local and be largely done by the time west coast Prime Time starts. That would diminish the value of those TV deals, too. This is a top reason they wanted to get Houston out of the NL: to get them away from having to share a division with Pacific Time teams.

As for travel, can you imagine the hollering by teams in Chicago, Milwaukee, and even St. Louis and Kansas City for being made to take several long junkets to the west coast while east coast teams go out only once, and have the luxury of traveling only a few hundred miles in puddle jumpers most of the time? There will always be inequity in travel needs between concentrated east coast teams and far flung west coast teams, but this increases those headaches for Midwest teams by at least double.

A four-team division setup based on geography has its potential problems, too—just wait until a below-.500 team that won a weak division goes on a tear and lands in the World Series—but compared to the travel issue, that seems a lesser problem.

I don’t love four-team divisions, but I think it’s the better choice of the dilemma, and I think Baseball will conclude the same.

Jim Melichar
8 years ago
Reply to  chasfh

I solved travel by eliminating AL/NL. An entire ET division, and entire PT division and two divisions in the middle equally split by CT and ET teams, which is the least burdensome travel.

MLB East: Mets, Yankees, Red Sox, Orioles, Phillies, Nationals, Blue Jays, (Montreal)

MLB North: Cubs, White Sox, Brewers, Twins, Tigers, Reds, Indians, Pirates

MLB South: Marlins, Rays, Braves, Astros, Rangers, Cardinals, Royals, (Charlotte)/(Nashville)

MLB West: Dodgers, Angels, Padres, Diamondbacks, Rockies, Giants, Athletics, Mariners, (Portland)

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  chasfh

I agree with you regarding the travel and time zone issues.

I thought that the Astros to the AL, however, was driven by the desire to balance out divisions rather than having a 6-team division and a 4-team division. The Astros were previously in the NL Central, so they weren’t sharing a division with any West Coast teams. The current alignment is admittedly imperfect because the AL West combines two Central Time Zone teams in Texas with three West Coast teams, but it keeps the NL Central in a compact geographical area and at least puts the Rangers and Astros in the same division. The change could also be accomplished by moving only one team rather than requiring broader restructuring of leagues and divisions. Finally, MLB also had leverage to push through the move because agreement to the move occurred as part of the MLB approving the sale of the Astros to Jim Crane.

Slappytheclown
8 years ago

If we are going to 32 it makes sense to do it geographically. I know, tradition, but at some point you just have to build some more tradition.

Also, just to throw out a radical suggestion which I am sure will be shot down but…what if he had a 16 team MLB-A league and a 16 teeam MLB-B league and we had relegation? That way, if you are the Rays trying to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox, maybe you only do it when you can, and if you can’t, you end up relegated? I know, stupid, but then we could go back to the winnders of each 8 team league met in the ‘World Series’ immediately, or you could have bigger playoffs…

Jim Melichar
8 years ago

https://www.fangraphs.com/community/lets-make-four-radical-changes-to-mlb-and-the-playoffs/

I’ll just leave that right here, since it offers a more sane way to realign, including pitting market-size rivals against each other and doesn’t throw St. Louis and Milwaukee into some nether-world where they constantly play on the West Coast. The solution is really easy if you add Portland (though I’d choose Charlotte or Nashville), you can move Colorado to the North to minimize time zone changes.

MLB East: Mets, Yankees, Red Sox, Orioles, Phillies, Nationals, Blue Jays, (Montreal)

MLB North: Cubs, White Sox, Brewers, Twins, Tigers, Reds, Indians, Pirates

MLB South: Marlins, Rays, Braves, Astros, Rangers, Cardinals, Royals, (Charlotte), (Nashville)

MLB West: Dodgers, Angels, Padres, Diamondbacks, Rockies, Giants, Athletics, Mariners, (Portland)

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Jim Melichar

Moving the Cubs and Cardinals to different divisions would be extremely unpopular with both teams and fan bases.

Jim Melichar
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Not when I have them playing each other every year. The market-size aspect of this realignment, plus time zone considerations make it the most ideal.

You could certainly swap the Reds and Cardinals in my proposition, but Royals/Cardinals and Reds/Indians was more important to me than Cubs/Cardinals.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Jim Melichar

If I understand the proposal correctly, “playing each other every year” means playing one series each year between the Cubs and Cardinals. Neither ownership group, nor fanbase, would want that few games, especially if it’s so that the Cubs can play the Twins and Tigers each 13 times per year or so that the Cardinals can play the Marlins and Rays each 14 times per year.

I agree that Cardinals-Royals has the potential to be a good rivalry, and that’s one of the current interleague rivalry match-ups that makes logical sense. The difference, though, is that Cardinals-Royals is pretty much an interesting potential rivalry, while Cardinals-Cubs is an actual rivalry with over 100 years of history to it.

I strongly think that any proposal for realignment needs to focus a lot on historic rivalries, which are influenced by NL and AL history, with less focus on geographic rivalries that would make sense in theory but take time to develop. My inclination is to start with each current league and make as few interleague changes as possible, particularly for teams that are well-established with lengthy histories in the NL or AL.

I also don’t know, based on the experience of other sports, if the idea that intra-city rivalries will overwhelm history for “better rivalries” is what we should expect. The NBA and NHL have put some teams in the same metro areas in the same division, but are Knicks-Nets, Lakers-Clippers, Islanders-Rangers-Devils, or Kings-Ducks really great rivalries?

Both MLB and the NFL seem to have done pretty well by keeping teams in the same city in separate leagues or conferences with historical rivals from other cities. In MLB, think examples like Yankees-Red Sox, Dodgers-Giants, Cubs-Cardinals, or Mets-Phillies. In NFL, think Giants vs. other NFC East teams, Raiders vs. other AFC West teams, or Jets vs. other AFC East teams.

The Real McNulty
8 years ago

Before determining what the realignment and schedule structure would look like, can FanGraphs do a survey to see which teams fans of a given team WANT to see, and then try to devise a schedule structure that way? On top of that, there can be a set amount of games for “random” teams to try to balance (1) strength of schedule (2) revenue (3) geographic travel

Jim Melichar
8 years ago

They can all play each other if you use 8 team divisions. You get 1 series against every other team in baseball and you play your geographic rivals the rest of the season. 84 games against your division and 72 games against everyone else in baseball.

The Real McNulty
8 years ago
Reply to  Jim Melichar

but do we want all teams meeting each year? I think there are some teams where fans don’t want to see every year, at the expense of natural rivalries or more interesting teams, but seeing them every 2, 3, or 6 etc years would be good. MLB can have some kind of census every 10 years where the fans preferences can be updated slightly

Jim Melichar
8 years ago

Yes, I want the opportunity to see Mike Trout, Jose Altuve, Aaron Judge, Giancarlo Stanton, Bryce Harper etc, etc, every single year in my home park. Why wouldn’t I want that? By the time the Brewers play the Reds for the 8th time I want to gouge my eyes out. Nothing wrong with the Reds, but I just don’t need to see them that often.

The fact that “interleague play” is so randomly lopsided due to “natural rivals” just begs for a better system. Everyone playing everyone else is the most fair outcome. You still get to decide you division by playing nearly 90 games against those teams. I just don’t have to see the same 4 teams over-and-over again.

The Real McNulty
8 years ago
Reply to  Jim Melichar

Math tells us you cannot play all 29 teams 6 times each year to ensure seeing each team at home.

Chickensoup
8 years ago
Reply to  Jim Melichar

This is the best reason for 8 teams IMO. You get the unbalanced, division centric schedule where you have 3 games vs every other team (alternating home/away) and 4 series vs divisional opponents (2 home/2 away). Unfortunately it also creates travel headaches as well, which is one of the biggest reasons to realign. With just normal league play for instance, in one week the Brewers played in Milwaukee, San Diego, and Chicago in succession. A month later they went Milwaukee, Arizona, St Louis (doubleheader). Later on Milwaukee, Tampa, Minnesota, Milwaukee with no break.

156 games would allow for some breaks but playing every team would necessitate more travel across time zones which the MLBPA wants to reduce. The year is already hard enough on players. I could see teams having to do more frequent full blown cross country 3 game series as a consequence

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago

one thing I wonder with expansion is if MLB uses it to maybe actually get rid of the DH. I mean, you would get 50(52 maybe?) extra jobs for the union.

tuggernutsMember since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

THE NL and AL both have the same roster sizes right now. Adding a DH to the NL doesn’t add a spot, it just takes it away from someone else.

CharlieC
8 years ago

Is this a Magic Johnson reference?

Stevens
8 years ago

I love this topic. Every few years I get an urge to imagine how we get to 32 teams. One thing I’m not seeing is mention of Mexico among locations. While Mexico City is far away, it has a huge population and could likely host 1 team or possibly host 2 to ease the travel burden a bit. Or host 1 in Mexico City with Guadalajara, Monterrey or Puebla hosting a second.

Likewise, Canada could potentially host 2 more teams, in Montreal or a second Toronto area team. Or possibly even in Vancouver.

And of course, it’s worth considering additional teams in New York, LA or maybe even Atlanta.

A lot of this is from messing around with current populations and an old ‘avidity’ percentage list for baseball fandom in various areas:
http://web.archive.org/web/20020806184032/www.scarborough.com/scarb2002/press/pr_mlb_data.htm

Alice Cooper
8 years ago
Reply to  Stevens

You think offense is out of control in Colorado? I can’t even imagine Mexico City and 2000 more feet of elevation

Stevens
8 years ago
Reply to  Alice Cooper

Bigger humidor? 🙂

AJ pro-Preller
8 years ago
Reply to  Stevens

“humidora”

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
8 years ago

I’m not sure that Tampa Bay and Oakland are legitimate MLB cities, let alone Montreal and Portland. Not so long ago they were considering contraction of teams with crappy stadia, and moving more teams into the NY and/or LA markets. The stated logic for expansion sounds almost like it’s driven by scheduling rather than market profitability. If Montreal and Portland are really legitimate MLB markets that would reduce revenue sharing requirements, why not just move the A’s and Rays there unless they get their stadia acts together? Why would revenue sharing contributors want more teams with their hand out?

noah2112
8 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Montreal represents a bigger market than about 1/3rd of MLB cities. On top of that, Canada is, by far, the biggest single MLB market and it could easily support a 2nd team. In today’s media landscape, a 2nd Canadian team could get a very good TV contract (or would be owned by one of the major providers).

AJ pro-Preller
8 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

I think you’re exactly right about Montreal & Portland,…Literally…and I do mean literally…every other major sports league is trying to get into the Vegas market, what would make the MLB any different? We just got a WNBA team & the NBA will be here in about 5 years.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

For Las Vegas, the metro area population (a bit over 2 million, without the extended “hinterland” population of most other small markets) looks marginal for an MLB team. It would be an expensive stadium, as I’d assume an MLB team would want a retractable dome to deal with the heat.

As for NBA and NHL, perhaps there’s a thought that tourist and convention numbers help more with sales for an 18,000 seat arena than for a 40,000-45,000 seat baseball stadium. A hockey/basketball arena also has more alternate uses (concerts, boxing, etc.) to make the numbers work without public funding.

The NFL is a different beast because of weekend games, plus major reliance on national TV money that’s shared equally between teams. It’s easy to foresee a weekend trip to Vegas for a game appealing to fans of visiting teams, and football (pro plus college) is the most bet sport in Nevada ( http://gaming.unlv.edu/reports/NV_sportsbetting.pdf ).

We also don’t yet actually know for sure that Vegas will support an NHL or NFL team, much less both of those plus an NBA team and/or MLB team.

AJ pro-Preller
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

7 games into the NHL season, better than half the league…http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance
and look at the cities below us…

You have no clue my friend if you think this justifies your point, Just look at what the major leagues are doing…moving to Vegas…so give me more nonsense, while I “literally” watch every major sports leagues including the WNBA & MLS for God’s sakes, make a home here in Vegas.
We build stadiums fast here in Vegas, we kinda have experience…

alpha309
8 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

Vegas heat is a real issue for baseball. NHL and NBA are both indoors where air conditioning is possible.

7 games into the life of a team isn’t anything to get excited over. Usually the new shiny thing has a lot of attention right away then fades. 7 games worth of attendance is a significantly small sample. I would wait a season and a half before thinking anything could be seen as a pattern.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

It obviously takes a lot more than seven games into the honeymoon period of an initial expansion season to know that a city is going to support an expansion franchise over time. Maybe the franchise will succeed over time, but the Atlanta Thrashers drew over 17,000 per game their first season and eventually left the city ( http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=4682 ).

Las Vegas hasn’t yet been awarded an MLS franchise. There is going to be a USL franchise, which is the minor league for MLS ( http://www.uslsoccer.com/news_article/show/822459?referrer_id=2349190 )

I also dispute any characterization of the WNBA as a “major sports league.” It’s in twelve markets with average regular season attendance of less than 8,000 per game.

Fatalotti
8 years ago

I’m of the opposite opinion of the FanGraphs writer and in agreement with the Baseball America writer. I really think baseball should just go to a balanced schedule, and admit the teams with the best records into the playoffs, but the format suggested by the BA writer appeals to me. Playing every team in the league at least 3 times is much better than going years at a time without ever playing a team, and even though I don’t think two teams need to face off against each other 12 times in a season, that is far better than having them face off 18-19 times. I mean, it really is crazy when you think about it that the Phillies, for example, played the Braves 19 times, the Marlins 19 times, the Mets 19 times, and the Nationals 19 times, but didn’t play the White Sox, Yankees, Orioles, Rays, Tigers, Royals, Twins, Indians, or Blue Jays AT ALL.

I don’t know why we’d ever want half the league to be “hidden” to a parochial fanbase – let’s show every fanbase the entire league. What’s the point of not doing so?

Chickensoup
8 years ago
Reply to  Fatalotti

Travel mostly. It’s hard to not schedule crappy home->West Coast->East Coast->Home types of schedules occasionally for Midwest teams if every team faces every other team.

Fatalotti
8 years ago
Reply to  Chickensoup

Sure, but teams are already traveling all over the country, since both leagues have teams from east to west. So really, it comes down to scheduling. Make road trips longer if need be. I can understand players wanting less 8 hours flight and arrivals at 3 in the morning, but if they need to “live on the road” for a few more weeks a year, they can do that.

noah2112
8 years ago

If MLB is considering radical re-alignment, it makes more sense to re-align based on time zone, which is not the same as geography. Time zone changes cause more stress for players and for ratings. There are currently 14 Eastern clubs, 8 Central, 2 Mountain and 6 Pacific (Arizona doesn’t observe day light savings so they can be considered in the Pacific). Based on this, you would add 2 teams to the East.

If MLB goes with 8 divisions they will either have to reduce the number of playoff teams to (8 division winners), greatly expand the playoffs (16 teams) or create a rather awkward wildcard system that greatly reduces the importance of winning a division. Things work much better with 4 divisions.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  noah2112

I don’t see a lot of the existing combinations of Eastern and Central Time Zone teams as problematic. A one hour time change isn’t too bad. Both the NL Central and AL Central mix Central and Eastern Time Zone teams while still remaining reasonably compact geographically.

The real problems, IMO, are the two hour or more time changes, and the distances to the Pacific Coast for teams in the Central Time Zone. Travis’ proposed alignment is worse on that count than the existing divisions, where only the AL West mixes Central Time Zone teams with Pacific teams.

DBPanterA
8 years ago
Reply to  noah2112

This is the best idea for realizing that the future fans (kids) generally cannot watch the vast majority of their home team’s games. Follow what the NHL did a few years ago. New rivalries will emerge, trust me, and it makes consuming the product from a fan’s perspective much more palatable.

Being a Minnesota fan, I loathed being in a division with Colorado, Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver, but the current Central Division makes it so the games can actually be watched.

TommyLasordid
8 years ago

Go to four, 4-team divisions for each league. Play 18 games against teams in your own division (54 games), and a home and home series (6 games) against all other teams in your league (total of 72 games). Then add 36 inter-league games, a home and home series against 6 teams.

That’s 54 + 72 + 36, for a total of 162.

The eight division winners make the playoffs. No more wild cards. If you can’t win your division, then you don’t belong.

nicketz
8 years ago

I have mixed feelings about expansion. If you assume (big assumption) that things function as they should, the best 750 players are already in MLB, so adding two teams is basically saying “Lets add in the next 50 guys who otherwise couldn’t make it”

diluting the talent pool…next stop: become the NBA 😀

Kerrfan3
8 years ago

The worst thing about expansion would be if it wrecked the beautiful advantages of the current playoff setup:

1. Wild cards are at a true disadvantage. 2. The team with the best record in the league gains a significant advantage.

Both of these add meaning to the regular season. It provides some intrigue to the finish order of division winners, and it keeps the division races interesting while keeping a large percentage of teams in the playoff race for the vast majority of the season.

You can get around this with four or eight divisions, but you have to do weird things to do it.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Kerrfan3

Small problem with that. in the 6 years of the Wild Card- they’ve won the LDS in 6/12 series. So it’s really not provided the advantages that you would think. Arizona this year only Wild Card winner that wound up getting swept.

Of course the advantages for the higher seeded teams kind of not as high as you would think- in the LDS. Looking in the 2/3 matchups- the 3 seed has won 8/12 in the same time period- and the NL 3 seed has won 6 straight LDS. So the lower seeded teams in the best of 5 LDS have won 14/24 series. Now that doesn’t hold for the best of 7 LCS. The lower seed has won only 3/12 series- with none since 2014.

#1 seeds have made the WS 5 times in the last 6 years(to include LA this year). Only once did both #1 seeds make the WS(2013).

So while it feels like it should provide a huge advantage, the facts are that it hasn’t.

John Autin
8 years ago

I’ll just throw this out there….

Four divisions of 8 teams each, two divisions per league.

160 total games:
— 16 games vs. each division foe … 16 x 7 = 112 games
— 6 games vs. each non-division foe in same league … 6 x 8 = 48 games
(No interleague play.)

Postseason field is 6 teams in each league:
2 division winners
4 wild cards, comprising:
— 2 second-place teams, and
— 2 at-large berths from any division.

Wild-card games (2 per league):
— Each runner-up hosts an at-large team, preferably from the other division.

LDS, LCS and WS stay as is, except:
— LDS has just one off day: Division winner hosts wild card first 3 games; then, if necessary, off day and 2 games at wild card team.
— LCS and WS home edge goes to better record (tiebreakers TBD).

UpNort
8 years ago

Alright, Travis… I’m a lurker. I lurk. “It’s what I do!” And I’ve been willing for a long time to give you a pass, because even though you are perhaps overly prolific, you pitch more Zingers and Dingers than Flingers. But this proposal is astounding in its Dumbnitude. I understand that you are trying to keep most teams in their comfort zone via NL/AL spots, but in both of your proposed West Divisions you have most teams crossing 2 time zones on an almost weekly basis, while any Eastern team not facing the twins remains in time.

Addiotally (sp intentional), while you posit that cross-town rivalries will benefit from your structure, you advocate the elimination of Interleague play: have you taken geography? Are you under the age of 26? Do you know where these towns are on the map? Under your current structure, half of the cross-town rivalries would never occur outside of the post-season!

Want to do it right? Do it truly geographically:

AL East:
BAL
BOS
MON*
NYY
NYM
PHI
TOR
WAS

NL Mid:
CIN
COL
DET
CHC
CHW
KC
MIL
MIN

AL South:
ATL
CLE
HOU
MIA
PIT
STL
TB
TEX

NL West:
AZ
POR*
LAA
LAD
OAK
SEA
SF
SD

Make them all adopt the DH. Or Not. It doesn’t effing matter. Except that this would make a lot more sense than the current structure other than removing some major (potential) large market teams to the AL to the detriment of the NL?!?… Maybe?

If it turns out to be Charlotte (or some other CAR), rather than Portland, you move CLE to the NLMid, and COL to the NLWest. Cake and Pie!

Anyway, get better. And don’t post junk just to increase your comment count!

(Edited to remove the 2nd Milwaukee team from the NL Mid, due to the fact that no-one typically cares about whether the Twins are listed or not (There’s one of your potential new Rivalries))!

carterMember since 2020
8 years ago

Not sure how this fits, but I’m sure day night doubleheaders on Sunday every other week would help with many of the logistics. Throw in some speciality pricing, along w allowing reentry w food promos and the fans would like it. Players already sit once a week as is and this would allot then extra travel days and time with family. If it coincided with a travel day I’d bet it would be a big hit.

carterMember since 2020
8 years ago

I recall the expos playing some of their games in another country, I believe in their last year. I’m not sure the level of success that had, but possibly aligning a team to split their home/road schedule in a way that they would have two home parks could lessen travel substantially for teams in farther away locations. Could be an interesting idea with Mexico city. Splitting time with an American city like Portland. The “cold” months would be played in Mexico city with a schedule that includes a lot of traveling to teams near by, and the later summer games (to lessen Park effects) would be in Portland. Maybe have a series or two stop over in the other location but generally spend one half in one location, one half in the other. As written it might not make 100% sense, but I am sure some variation of this idea would work.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
8 years ago

this might be unpopular but wouldnt it be better to contract to 30? I like diversity but markets like Tampa, oakland and even milwaukee are hardly able to Support a competetive payroll unless a rich owner is willing to burn Money.

now payroll has become less important due to all the pre arb Talent and smart analytics but big market Teams have caught up in analytics and payroll is starting to become more important again. a small market Team can win but usually only for 2-3 years before Players get expensive in arb and have to be traded. I have no Problem with a well done tank Job, it does make sense but if you have 6 or 7 Teams having to go through the compete, sell, rebuild cycle twice a decade that sucks.

this years NL was really bad in that regard. the giants of course were bad luck but the phillies, braves, padres and reds were all in full rebuild mode which IMO is too much.

Envy AngelMember since 2017
8 years ago

To be frank, I’m not sure that any realignment which includes divisions is such a good thing. If the league goes to eight-team divisions, then the danger is that all of the best teams end up in the same division. Something like this happened in 1973, when the Mets took the NL East with only 82 wins. Four teams in the NL West had 82 wins or more (The Mets were a half-game ahead of Houston only because the Mets played one less game).

If the league goes to four-team divisions, you have the same problem (all the top teams in one division) and two more:

1) A single division in which no team has a winning record. This is nearly what happened in the AL West in 1994. A four-team division (CAL, SEA, OAK, TEX) was in danger of sending a sub-.500 team to the playoffs before the strike ended play. The division was so bad that Texas, the division leader, was ten games under .500 when play stopped. The same problem happened in the NFL (the league baseball seems dead-set on imitating) in 2014, when the Carolina Panthers won their division with a 7-8-1 record, and again in 2010, when the Seattle Seahawks and the St. Louis Rams finished tied with identical 7-9 records.

2) On the opposite end of the spectrum, the four best teams are all split between the divisions. Then the problem is that these four division winners face no competition throughout the regular season. Do we really want to see division leaders with ten-, fifteen-, or twenty-game leads heading into September? That’s essentially what we had this past season in four of the six current divisions. And the wild card did not make things any better in the AL: Only five teams finished above .500, and it took a hot September from Minnesota to keep the league from sending a losing team to the postseason.

I see a lot of the discussion here focusing on the convenience of the divisional alignments (geography, travel, time zones), but shouldn’t we be worried about the competition level of the sport?

TexManZero
8 years ago

While I don’t like the idea of expansion, I know that Manfred and Company see the dollar signs and want to cash in as soon as possible. Once Oakland and Tampa fix their stadium situations, the ball will roll on expansion.

Let’s assume that Oakland and Tampa keep their teams and Portland and Montreal are the expansion clubs. Having four team divisions weakens the sweetness of victory and can produce blowouts late in the season that make September boring for the other three clubs that are out of it. I think that going back to four divisions of eight is the right way to do it. What I propose is to do this with consideration of A) travel, and B) tradition.

My proposal is not to create “divisions,” but rather two new “leagues.” The American and National Leagues go back to eight teams, and two new leagues take up the remaining sixteen teams. For this exercise, they will be the Federal and Pacific leagues. They will try to create a sense of tradition while keeping travel concerns at bay.

AL: BAL, BOS, CLE, DET, NYY, TOR, MON, TB
NL: ATL, CIN, MIA, MIL, NYM, PHI, PIT, WAS
FL: CHC, CHW, COL, KCR, MIN, HOU, STL, TEX
PL: ARI, LAA, LAD, OAK, POR, SDP, SEA, SFG

All of the AL teams except for Montreal have history in that league and are in the Eastern Time Zone. The NL has the same pros as the AL except that the Brewers are in the Central. The FL has all teams in the Central except for Colorado, and the PL has all teams in the Pacific, including Arizona during the summer.

Each team plays their division rivals in two home and aways, and alternate every year against every other team in a three game series. There are no Monday games, and there are 156 games in total. The top three teams from each league get into the playoffs with 2 v. 3 and 1 getting a bye. The first is a three game series at the number 2 team, then seven round series’ until the World Series.

The only problem is that it makes too much sense, so…

Dooduh
8 years ago

The problem with 4 eight team divisions is that some less competitive teams may get buried in those divisions not sniffing any success for possibly decades. I would think that the league would want to provide for the opposite to happen – the opportunity to see every team have some chance to sniff some success from time to time and 4 team divisions are more likely to deliver that.

And 8 four team divisions also make the scheduling easier. You would have 12 games against division opponents (36 games), and 6 games against all other league teams (72 games). You could then have one 3 game series with every team in the other league (48 games). That totals 156. You’d then have 6 remaining games which could pad your interleague rival schedule or just 2 series randomly assigned.

Alternatively, you could do just half the interleague teams for 6 games each year, on an alternating year basis.

And then, so as not to reduce the number of playoff teams, you could have one WC team make it on best record of the non-division winners. And there could be a play-in game between the WC team and the div winner with the worst record. That also alleviates the potential problem of having a div winner with a bad record in one of the 4 team divisions.

davels
8 years ago

If geography is key (and I tend to agree that it is), then drop the NL and AL leagues. Have an East league and a West league. Would definitely decrease travel. Should greatly foster rivalries.

BrambleSling
8 years ago

First, eliminate the remaining, artificial league distinctions as MLB already destroyed the leagues acting as separate entities when they got rid of the league presidencies and separate umpiring crews.

So let’s get radical and take the 32 teams and divide them into 8 permanent divisions as best as you can by geography while also taking into account market size and splitting up 2-team areas/cities when possible. Something like:

East: NYY/Mon/Bos/Phil; North: Tor/NYM/Det/Cle;
Mid-Atlantic: Was/Bal/Pitt/Cin; Southeast: Atl/Hou/TB/Mia
South: KC/Tex/Col/ChiWS; Mid-West: ChiC/StL/Minn/Mil
Southwest: LAD/SD/SF/Ari; West: Oak/Por/LAA/Sea

Create 4 Conferences- every year (or maybe every so many years), seed those 8 divisions into the 4 conferences while taking into account geographical distance and time zones, so that a conference will never host two divisions where the majority of teams are separated by 3 hours.

Shorten the season to 150 games. 18 games each against each conference opponents for a 126 games in total; with the remaining 24 games against an annually assigned rival division.

At the end of every season, 12 teams, the eight division winners plus 4 conference wild cards, qualify for a playoff-tournament. The 12 teams will be seeded into two “leagues”, of 6 teams each; two conferences’ 4-division winners assigned together and a random placing of the wild cards. They will then be ranked 1st to 6th by record and given a number of losses before they are eliminated from the tournament. So, it would work out to be something like:

a sixth seed would get a single loss
the fourth and fifth seeds two losses
the third and second seeds three losses
and the 1st seed four losses

The logistics would need to be worked out but it is easy to imagine teams playing 2 game series followed by an off day, rotating home and road (with preferences going to higher ranking teams), until all but a single team are eliminated. This way, no team will be inactive for more than 3 days (as eliminations start occurring.) The two teams remaining from each league would go on to play in the World Series.

Dooduh
8 years ago

I would have expansion in Portland (AL) and either Nashville or Charlotte in the NL. And this would have 4 teams flipping leagues to make it work best geographically. It looks like this:

ALE: NYY, BOS, TOR, BAL
ALC: CLE, DET, CHIS, PIT*
ALS: KC, TEX, ATL*, TAM/J’VILLE
ALW: OAK, SEA, LAA, PORT*

NLE: NYM, PHI, WAS, CIN
NLC: MIL, CHIC, COL, MN*
NLS: MIA, STL, HOUS*, NAS/CHAR*
NLW: LAD, SD, SF, AZ

So it would be Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Minn, and Houston flipping leagues to better align the divisions. I think this is workable.

mikecws91
8 years ago

As much as I don’t like it, I think we’re moving toward 4-team divisions to reduce travel and increase intrigue for mediocre teams that could back into division wins.

Here’s an alignment that could maintain most current rivalries and create some new ones while not putting any teams into a bad situation with time zones.

AL West: SEA, **POR**, OAK, LAA
AL Central: MIN, KC, TEX, HOU
AL North: CHW, DET, CLE, BAL
AL East: NYY, BOS, TOR, **MON**
NL West: LAD, SF, SD, ARI
NL Central: COL, STL, CHC, MIL
NL North: CIN, PIT, PHI, NYM
NL East: WAS, ATL, TB, MIA (Rays move to NL)

John Autin
8 years ago

For a peek at what 4-team divisions might bring, consider this:

Before divisions, when leagues were 8 or 10 teams, every pennant winner was at least 20 games over .500. That standard equates to 91 wins in today’s schedule, or a .562 W%.

Let’s use that .562 W% as a threshold of interest for division winners. Here’s the share of division winners who finished *under* .562, by division size:
— 19% in divisions with 5 to 7 teams (42 of 224, with similar rates for each size); but
— 39% in 4-team divisions (9 of 23).

You get the same “shortfall-doubling” effect at most threshold levels:
— At 89 wins/.549 W%, 10% of the bigger-division winners fell short (22 of 224), but 22% of 4-team winners (5 of 23).
— At 92 wins/.568, 23% of the bigger-division winners fell short (52/224), but 48% of 4-team winners (11/23).

And note that even the 5-team winners make out significantly better than 4-team winners at every threshold of interest.

No doubt some of this is from the specific makeup of the 4-team divisions we’ve had so far — the AL West from 1994-2012 (Rangers, A’s, Mariners, Angels), and the NL West 1994-97 (Dodgers, Giants, Padres, Rockies). And you might argue to exclude the aborted ’94 season from these tallies, although I’d counter that no West team showed signs of rallying to a respectable record; 7 of 8 were under .500 since June 1, and the other one ended on a 4-9 skid to 51-63.

But no matter how you form them, 4-team divisions will greatly increase the chance of mediocre division winners.

Mike NMN
8 years ago

I don’t have a problem with 2 new teams in emerging markets. But MLB spends too much time contemplating free stadiums in Tampa and Oakland rather than improving the product and marketing in those markets. The Commissioner seems to think that new construction is magic–I suppose it is in driving up franchise values, but it hasn’t been in attracting a permanent fan base. And, it should be noted that both Florida teams are 1990’s expansion teams, and still haven’t found a formula. What’s different now?

FS54
8 years ago

I personally am not too excited about seeing Angels or Yankees once every three years. If I want to watch Trout or Judge play, I can just switch to their games. To me, inter-league games hold no value. I would rather NL teams play NL teams to determine who is the best NL team. For me, that means doing away with divisions. I am not a fan of seeing under-performing teams win their divisions but better teams playing in WC games.

I can work with 16 teams per league and each team plays the other 15 teams 10 times, 5 at home and 5 away. Increase individual series length to 5 so scheduling is easier. Season can also be shortened that way.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  FS54

Well in the 6 years of the current format, what you’re saying has happened 4 of 12 times. 2 of the 4 times, teams were 1-2 games different. Only in 2012 and 2015 was there a big difference.

And note- this year’s Cleveland/New York series- was not what you’re saying. While yes, felt like NY maybe better than Boston- but by record- the Red Sox were seeded correctly.

John Autin
8 years ago

For the record, interleague attendance this year was 0.8% more than the overall average, or +228 fans per game. There is simply no evidence that interleague play brings a revenue boost that is worth the trade-off in travel and scheduling complications. (Data from Baseball-Reference.)

idgafkurt
8 years ago

AL West – Seattle, Anaheim, Oakland, Portland/Vegas*
NL West – San Diego, San Fran, Arizona, LA

AL North – Cleveland, Chicago Sox, Minnesota, Detroit
NL North – Chicago Cubs, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Cincinnati

AL East – Baltimore, New York Yankees, Toronto, Boston
NL East – Philadelphia, New York Mets, Montreal*, Pittsburgh

AL South – Kansas City, Colorado, Houston, Texas
NL South – Washington, Tampa Bay, Miami, Atlanta

Only Tampa and Colorado switch leagues. Geographically it seems to work well, keeps current divisions fairly intact and it keeps a number of rivalries together (NY-Bos, Chi-STL, LA-SF, etc).

Can also easily take this to the 4, 8 team division model by just eliminating the AL/NL split.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  idgafkurt

I like it!

It’s also a good framework for other alternate expansion cities with minimal changes.

If Charlotte or Nashville instead of Montreal, then Washington to NL East and Charlotte or Nashville to NL South.

If San Antonio or Austin instead of Portland or Las Vegas, then the new Texas team to AL South and Colorado to AL West.

Dooduh
8 years ago
Reply to  idgafkurt

CO is bad enough on pitchers without adding another bat to the lineup they’ll have to face. I’m pretty sure that MLB will try to avoid moving CO to the AL.