This Week Could Change The Giants’ Fortune
Over the last decade, the Giants have been one of the most successful franchises in the game, winning 831 regular season games and, of course, three World Series titles. Along the way, there have been plenty of important weeks, most notably in October, when Madison Bumgarner and friends stepped up and played their best baseball at the most important time of the year. But while the Giants’ recent past has been full of big moments, this week might be the one that determines the Giants future for the next decade.
Obviously, the team’s pursuit of Giancarlo Stanton has dominated news about the team so far this off-season, and Stanton would certainly make the team significantly better. But as Jeff Sullivan noted recently, the Giants aren’t really in a position to just trade for Stanton and think that solves their problems. I’m going to steal a graph from his post, showing the current projected standings in the NL based on the Steamer projections.
The Giants currently project for fewer wins than the Marlins, who are intentionally trying to get worse. They are just a tick ahead of the Phillies and Reds, neither of whom are thinking about taking on $300 million in future contract commitments right now. And while Stanton is a great player, no single player in baseball moves the needle on his own. Here’s Jeff’s second chart, where he assumes the Giants get Stanton.
As he notes, acquiring Stanton would move the team from the 10th-best projected NL team to the 8th-best, which is something, but 8th-best in a league where only five teams make the postseason, and one of them goes home after a single play-in game, isn’t the most enviable spot to be in. The primary point of Jeff’s post is that the Giants can’t just acquire Stanton and call it a day. If they’re going to take most of that contract, they would need to also invest in other upgrades in order to give the team a better chance of getting a return on that significant investment.
The problem is that taking on Stanton’s contract pushes the team well over the CBT threshold, and as a third-time payor, the Giants will pay a 50% tax on every dollar they spent over $197 million. Adding most of Stanton’s deal would put them at around $215 million, so they’d already be pushing up against the first surtax threshold — $20 million more than the CBT threshold — where they’d have to pay an additional 12% on the overage, and put them within striking distance of the second surtax threshold, where another 45% tax would kick in.
So they can’t really just keep spending their way out of their current problems. If they take Stanton’s contract, the rest of their upgrades would likely have to come from low-salary players, which are usually guys you develop internally or trade for. But the Giants’ farm system isn’t very good, so expecting it to produce some cheap big league contributors in 2018 isn’t realistic, and they don’t have the kinds of trade chips that could fetch them a low-cost impact player from another franchise.
And they aren’t really in a position to just wait for some of their low-level guys to make it to the show. While the Giants might not feel old, the reality is that they probably have two more years to try and win before running into a forced rebuild.
Buster Posey is 31, and has logged nearly 7,000 innings behind the plate. He won’t be able to catch forever, and when he has to change positions, he’s going to lose a lot of value. Madison Bumgarner is only 28, but he’s also only under contract for two more years, and he’ll command a huge raise after the 2019 season. And with roughly $100 million in commitments to six players in 2020 — which would be $125 to $130 million for seven guys if they acquire Stanton — there’s a realistic chance that that the team wouldn’t be able to afford Bumgarner, especially if the new salary for high-end players pushes goes over $40 million in next winter’s free agent bonanza.
And the Giants couldn’t really sustain a loss of Bumgarner, because the other guys making money in 2020 are also going to be in their mid-30s, and likely not going to be all that productive. That 2020 cliff looks precipitous, and the Giants essentially have two more years to try and win before they go flying over it.
And thus, one could reasonably argue that they need Shohei Ohtani more than any of the other finalists. Because if they landed both Stanton and Ohtani, all of the sudden they’d be something like an 87-win team, and project as the 4th-best team in the NL heading into the 2017 season. And because of Ohtani’s inability to be financially compensated for his talent, Ohtani would give the Giants a potential impact player without moving the CBT needle at all. All of the sudden, the Giants would be legitimate contenders, and the window could theoretically stay open for an extra year, as Ohtani still won’t be arbitration eligible by 2020.
We don’t know Ohtani’s timeline for choosing a team, but he’s zipping through the in-person meetings right now, and it wouldn’t be entirely shocking if Ohtani’s representatives brought him to the winter meetings for a pomp-and-circumstance press conference next week. And if Stanton was on the fence about joining the Giants because he was unsure of their ability to contend for the duration of his contract, adding Ohtani might just change that calculation.
Or it could go the other way. Perhaps one reason the Giants have tried so hard to acquire Stanton before the Ohtani sweepstakes got underway is that they wanted to have Stanton as part of their pitch, and if they could get him to agree to a trade to San Francisco, perhaps Ohtani would be more interested in going to the bay area. It’s possible that either one of them choosing SF would also make the other one more likely to come too.
Getting both players would dramatically change the Giants’ roster, and probably change their current trajectory, which isn’t great. But if they don’t land Ohtani, one could argue that they’d be better off getting neither, as acquiring Stanton by himself might not get them back to the postseason, but could make the coming collapse even more extreme, especially if Stanton regresses ands up not exercising his opt-out.
Getting both would be great. Getting neither would be okay, as the Giants do have other options to upgrade this winter, and missing out on Stanton might end up leading to a better allocation of resources. The worst outcome might be getting Stanton but losing out on Ohtani, as that may leave the Giants just good enough to hang around the periphery of contention without being quite good enough to overcome any of the three behemoths in the NL.
At the end of this next week, the Giants could be legitimate contenders again. Or they could be spurned by two players they highly covet. Or they could get one and not the other, and the impact on the franchise would be wildly different depending on which of the two it ended up being.
Because Ohtani and Stanton hold all the power, there’s nothing the Giants can do to ensure the outcome they want, but despite that lack of control, this remains a vitally important week for the franchise. The direction of their organization may very well be decided in the next seven days.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.


The moral of the story is don’t spent $15M/year FA closers or $10M/year on 4th outfielders. I can’t believe how high their payroll is.
Well, he wasn’t exactly a fourth outfielder when they signed him…I’m pretty sure if they knew he was going to decline so fast they would have backed away.
there was actually an article on this very website suggesting the Giants signing Denard Span would be a wise move.
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/about-that-giants-outfield/
There were several from the author above endorsing Jason Heyward being signed for even more than Epstein gave him.
Well, before the fact that was plenty of reason to think that signing Heyward to a large contract was a good idea. He’d accumulated 27.7 WAR over 6 years prior to his free agent deal, and a total of 11.2 WAR over the prior two seasons, and he was only 26.
I also recall someone in the comments looking at position player comps for the degree to which Heyward’s value cratered in his late 20’s after so many years of great production.
The conclusion I recall is that there were no more than a handful of similar precedents, and that these precedents were almost all players who were derailed by very serious injuries (e.g., Grady Sizemore).
The whole thing about his defense and how valuable it is…that was not what killed him last year. What really derailed him was that he stopped hitting (last year).
Denard Span, IIRC, had an injury problem that people thought would resolve and it didn’t.
Very different situations.
As if the time he was signed, there were no indicators present at all that Heyward was about to collapse offensively. You can’t blame anyone, including Epstein and almost every baseball website, for not seeing something that simply was not there.
Since the 2016 All Star break, the Giants have probably been the worst team in baseball. Sorry if I’m skeptical that these two players will make them contenders again. They will certainly make them better, maybe a .500 team.
you can take the word probably out of the 1st sentance. They are the worst team in MLB in that period.
SF 94-140
Phi 95-139
The main problem for the Giants in 2017 was losing Bumgarner’s, Cueto’s, Moore’s expected production, as well as Melancon, while Cain continued to decline, as well as losing Belt late in the year.
The first four are expected to return to norms in 2018. That will get the Giants back to .500, Stanton would push us into playoff contention range, Ohtani to division contention.
You’re in denial. The Giants lineup is OLD.
I attempted to watch the Giants several times at different points last year. Their lineup – other than Posey – got themselves out on 90 – 92 mph fastballs down the middle of the plate.
Which crappy AAA teams were they playing that were throwing 90-92 mph batting practice pitches to a big league club?
Also, glad that your several times watching games give you more insight than numbers do, such as the fact that they were the worst team in baseball by wins (tied with Tigers), third worst by pythagorean, and worst by baseruns (tied with Padres). You may be new here, but generally people don’t care what your eyeball test tells you about a team’s talent based on a few times watching them play.
What makes anyone think Matt Moore will be any good? Was he fighting injuries in 2017? Or was he just bad?
I don’t see any reason to think Moore will be any good. His numbers were terrible all around, and he looked like he was throwing batting practice–with all the confidence of a little leaguer on a major league mound. I would be glad to be wrong about this, but it seems like putting him the rotation is about as bad an idea as bringing back Matt Cain.
This article–and all the talk about team WAR, age, health, future contractual obligations, divisional competition, Stanton, and Ohtani–neglect to address that the team does not have a third baseman.
Of course, I expect to see Sandoval in spring training, along with Ryder Jones, competing for the spot, but they may as well just keep Span and Pence starting everyday in the OF if they’re going to keep Moore in the rotation and give the 3B job to someone they’ve already got–in other words, concede defeat for 2018 (and several years beyond) now. The players union ought to love this team for paying seven and eight figures to players–Zito, Pagan, Span, Huff, Dave Roberts, and many others during the Sabean-regime era–for whom other teams wouldn’t even tender a guaranteed ML contract.
I think you meant to say World Series Champion Zito, 2x WS Champ Huff and and 3x WS Champs Pagan and HOF GM Sabean. Yes, I’m sure the MLBPA loves all of them.
To add to this article… The Giants will very likely have to undergo a full rebuild after 2020. Regardless of Stanton and Otani, the majority of their team will be aged and expensive, and the current farm system likely won’t produce much quality, cheap talent by then. With the state of the NL West (young and payroll-decreasing Dodgers, young Rockies, young core in Arizona), the Giants won’t have a spot in contention for a while post-2019. Whether or not they push for 2018 and 2019 contention won’t change the fact they’ll likely need to rebuild after 2019 (though Ohtani can lessen that need).
TL:DR – The state of the NL West and age/cost of their roster dictates a rebuild will be necessary post-2019 for the Giants, regardless of whether or not they get Stanton and/or Othani. Hence why they should and are pushing all-in for 2018 and 2019.
Accurate for the most part, but the Giants under Sabean have never done a full rebuild where you sell off everyone old or soon to get old, of value. They pivoted in 1997, in 2008, and is trying again in 2018.
But what most people are missing is how pitching makes the Giants competitors, even when they might have an old and offensively inept team. As I showed before, having an elite pitching/fielding (i.e. defense) team enables a weak offensive team (which is generally result of old team) to be a playoff contender.
People focus too much on hitting. Pitchers control games if they are good. Most are not that good, but you put enough of them into a rotation, you improve your chances greatly, belying the playoffs is a crapshoot saying. It doesn’t guarantee you anything – baseball is too random for that – but it does improve your chances, significantly in my opinion.
Assuming they resign Bumgarner as expected, that would mean they control Bumgarner, Cueto, Samardzija over the next 3+ seasons, and obtaining Ohtani would extend that period.
It will help that they get the #2 pick overall next season, as well, for their future. They have nailed mostly their Top 10 picks for a while now: Lincecum, Bumgarner, Posey, Wheeler. Wheeler hasn’t broke out, and been injured, but 3 of 4 ain’t bad, that’s actually great given the odds of finding good players with picks 5-10.
@obsessive: I disagree with the overall premise of this comment – WAR is WAR, basically, whether from pitching, offense, or defense – and also several of the details, but I’ll hone in on just one detail: “even when they might have an old and offensively inept team”.
What I strongly suspect you’re missing in thinking about the Giants is the need to adjust statistics for park factors, and you’re therefore mistakenly thinking that recent Giants’ playoff teams had worse offenses than they did due to playing home games in a pitchers’ park. It’s like the TV announcers this year who would talk about the Rockies as a “great” offensive team (most runs in the NL!; 5th most in the majors!) when including park factors tells us that they were well below average offensively, with a 94 wRC+ for non-pitchers.
Similar story for the Giants: their playoff teams have all been at least pretty good offensive teams. Here’s the history of non-pitcher wRC+ for those teams:
2016: 103 wRC+, 10th in the majors
2014: 106 wRC+, 7th in the majors
2012: 108 wRC+, 5th in the majors
2010: 106 wRC+, 7th in the majors
Multiple things went wrong for the Giants in 2017, but cratering to league-worst 87 wRC+ non-pitcher batting production was a huge part of their problems.
I agree with a lot of this, but we simply don’t have a good idea what the Rockies and Diamondbacks will look like in a few years.
Blackmon is a free agent after 2018 (and 31 years old), and Arenado is a free agent after 2019.
Goldschmidt is a free agent after 2019 and 30 years old. Pollock and Patrick Corbin are free agents after 2018. Greinke is 34 years old so who knows when he turns into 2016 Greinke, or worse, and his contract through 2021 once again looks like a millstone. In any case, I’ll also take the under on the Diamondbacks having more seasons where their Opening Day 5-man rotation combines for 145 starts and 17.3 fWAR.
I’m not saying it’s guaranteed that either of these teams will crater, but they have their own challenges to remaining good teams out past the next couple years.
Agreed on the caution of Rockies and Dback’s success. The basis of that premise is that young players (such as the Dback’s core and the Rockies SP) finally started to perform, and neither team has a dryer farm or higher 2020+ payroll than the Giants. And both teams are starting to show an ability to attract FA, such as Greinke, recovering Holland, reclaimed Desmond, etc.
I doubt we will ever know this for sure, but I feel that Stanton and the Marlins are using SF to try and pull the Dodgers into discussions. I beleive that they both know that Stanton will say no to SF so Miami can claim all they want that they will accept a deal they will not have to make. Maybe they also have STL on the hook just to make sure SF is not there alone and LA thinks things are more urgent. Or maybe STL deal is for real – it does make more sense to me since they have players and cash to spend.
You don’t seem to subscribe to the same law of diminishing returns the Dodgers do.
I don’t think LA should be involved in this at all, just saying that I think Stanton and Miami are doing all they can to try and pull them in.
I would like to think that the next few weeks will be crucial to the trajectory of the giants because that would imply that there is the possibility that they will really improve so as to be a serious competitor, but i find this hard to believe. On the one hand the team is seriously aging but on the other hand, management or at least bochy seems to be wedded to the idea of never ditching or trading any of the players from their glory years, and bochy is convinced that gaps in the roster can only be filled by established stars or washed-up veterans. The entire model is incompatible with the idea of even a partial rebuild. The only way this team will seriously improve is if there is change at the top.
You know, you could be totally right. But as a fan of a team that doesn’t have three World Series rings since 2010, allow me to say that ‘the Giants need a change at the top for improvement’ sounds awfully ridiculous from the outside looking in. It’s a tough crowd to please if Giants fans are wanting wholesale changes moving forward, away from the folks who have overseen more championships in recent history than any of the other 29 front offices.
I understand ashlandateam’s point, but sometimes front offices need turnover, even after recent success, if they’re not going to make the right kind of moves going forward.
The Cardinals about a decade ago are a great example of that. They fired Walt Jocketty after the 2007 season. That was a 78-84 season, but here were the Cardinals’ cumulative results in the 8 seasons prior to firing Jocketty:
– 736-559 record, which is a .568 winning percentage (equivalent to a 92-70 season)
– 1 World Series win, 2 World Series appearances, and six playoff appearances (in the 1 wild card team era)
We could easily look at that track record and wonder why Jocketty was fired. In retrospect, however, it was a smart move that ended front office divisiveness resulting from Jocketty’s resistance to the Cardinals’ efforts (mandated by ownership) to move toward more focus on player development and more of an analytical orientation. The Cardinals’ results over the next decade certainly argue in favor of it.
It does sound ridiculous, I know, but this is the depressing (for me) conclusion which I have come to. But I didn’t suggest wholesale changes at the top, just change. The problem is which change. My own feeling is that Bochy is not even close to being the genius he has been made out to be but happened to be in the right place at the right time–he was blessed with a relief staff which was very well constructed but very underrated (excellent pitching to contact, good closer, good LOOGY, good ROOGY/setup man, good man for 6th/7th inning jams) and happened to pitch incredibly well in the postseason, he found a few apparently washed-up veterans who happened to perform well in the postseason (but in the last year or two it’s become apparent that this is because he’s obsessed with veterans to the extent that he’ll prefer to play washed-up veterans who don’t produce at all to looking for young talent), and in general the team came through in the biggest games. I think he should be replaced. I don’t have a really strong opinion about the higher-ups in the organization (although many Giants’ fans do) because I think that for the most part everyone is so cowed by Bochy that they do mostly whatever he says.
It also may not be a coincidence that Bochy looked like a genius until 2014, while Tim Flannery was with the team, and has looked pretty bad since then after Flannery retired. Some Giants’ fans think that Flannery may have had a lot more of an impact on Bochy’s managing than is commonly acknowledged.
i know this is completely unrelated, and i
m a huge fan of the website so id appreciate if you didnt ban me or anything, i have a small baseball blog just started it last month, i wrote a piece on the AL MVP award and all i want is for somebody, anyone who works at FG to take a look at it, and give me their take, its not much to ask for.http://maximustake23.blogspot.com.br/2017/12/al-mvp-again.html
There’s a community section that accepts posts, submit your article there if you want feedback or for people here to see it.
You’ve been spamming the comments section with your blog for several days now. Stop it.
Last year did Steamer predict the Giants would go from a playoff contender to a 64 win team?
If the Dodgers step aside and let the stinking Giants get Stanton I will curse them for years.
Couple things of note, first when you say no single player would move the needle that much you are forgetting about one single player. He happens to be located in the same state! Second, I disagree when you say Bumgarner is going to get a huge contract. He’s lost a lot. You may not see it in the numbers, but the underlying stuff like mph, etc it shows. He is not a top 10mlb pitcher anymore.