Torre Out, Mattingly In
With the Dodgers sitting at 72-75, 11 games out of the NL West leading and facing an elimination number of only 5, it’s safe to say that their season is over. Now along with that, Joe Torre’s managerial tenure in Chavez Ravine has also come to an end. Replacing Torre will be longtime bench companion and former Yankee Don Mattingly, who will get his long-awaited chance to manage.
Torre has seen his fair share of criticism of late, particularly in regard to his bullpen management (Scott Proctor immediately comes to mind) and his lineup construction. However, Torre’s teams have done fantastically well, as the last time a Torre led team failed to reach the postseason was in 1995, when the Cardinals finished 4th in their division and missed the playoffs in a strike-shortened season. Every single one of Torre’s Yankee squads reached the postseason, winning six AL championships and four world series titles, and Torre’s first two Dodger teams won the NL West.
Of course, the immediate counterpoint to the performance of Torre’s teams is the fact that they were, at least in New York, ridiculously talented. His Dodgers teams, too, at least relative to their division, were quite good. It brings up the question of how much we can credit a manager for winning with supreme talent. It’s easy to give credit to Buck Showalter when his relatively talent-less Orioles go on a winning streak; it’s not as simple when Joe Maddon has the deepest stock of position players on the continent or when Tony La Russa has the best player on the planet.
The question of whether or not Torre will take another managing job is purely based on his personal life. The question of whether or not another team should offer him a job is something different entirely. At 70, Torre’s age is a bit of a question mark and he certainly made some questionable decisions with the Dodgers: ruining Scott Proctor’s arm, batting Matt Kemp eight for a majority of 2009, and benching Manny Ramirez during the Dodgers’ last gasp this season are just a few. However, every manager is prone to these types of decisions, and although it’s easy for us on the outside to sit back and cry foul on them. Whether or not Torre is fit to manage is a decision that is much better left to those inside baseball than to us outsiders, even though on the surface it can seem apparent that Torre is hurting the team more than he is helping.
Now, Don Mattingly will take over a Dodgers team that is undoubtedly on the decline and is mired in an extremely ugly divorce case. This isn’t going to be an easy first situation for Mattingly, but at the very least it should serve as a decent test of his ability in the clubhouse.
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Retired… doubt it. Braves, Mets, Cubs, and Cards all need managers (or will probably, or should).
Jays, too.
I think it’s safe to say that Don Mattingly would not be managing the Dodgers if he didn’t have a few seasons in the 80s when he hit well over .300 and slugged 30+ HRs.
Which is to say that he has not only not “earned” an MLB managerial spot, but also that he didn’t really earn his reputation as a baseball superstar, either.
Right. The Indians were thinking the same thing when they hired Joel Skinner. *rolls eyes*
Do you actually remember how good Mattingly was as a hitter and defender before the injuries derailed his career?
At least with the Dodgers he’ll be in a familiar situation as one of the few bright spots on what will likely be a bad team.
Number one first basemen in wOBA three years in a row despite having a pretty low walk rate for a typical slugger. The guy was a stud. He just got hurt. Baseball players seem to know who has hall of fame talent and who doesn’t, and they all seem to agree he did.
Doesn’t mean he should be a hall of famer, but you can’t deny the talent.
Granted he wasn’t even the best defensive 1B to play in NY in the 1980s…but then he did have the misfortunate of playing across town from Keith Hernandez. From 84-89, Mattingly was one of the best players in baseball year in and year out. He hit, he had a great glove. He won an MVP, was runner up another time, won 5 GGs (legitimate GG, not Abreu GGs), posted an OPS+ of 147 (led the league twice), led the league in TB twice, led the league in hits twice, led the league in doubles 3 times and was an All-Star all 6 years.
His stats support all those accolades. Had he stayed healthy, he’d be in the Hall right now. As it is, he’s a borderline, outside looking in player despite that.
I hate the Yankees but Donny Baseball was the man.
He was alright.
Joe Torre’s body language this year said managing the Dodgers was the last place in the world he wanted to be. I say he needs to take a season off and decide whether more managing is really what he wants to do at this point in his life.
As for Mattingly, that night he made two trips to the mound in one after Torre got tossed, well, he looked like that was the last place in the world HE wanted to be too, which doesn’t bode well for the future.
I just wonder if, after playing and managing in New York, any place else just isn’t too exciting for Joe Torre and Donnie Baseball.
The Dodgers aren’t going anywhere the next couple years…its a Manager spot but its not a very good one for him.
needs to get rid of his sideburns
Mattingly is a smart baseball guy and I doubt the Dodgers will be as bad as people suspect. There is still a lot of talent there. It’s a matter of putting it together and I imagine they will find a way to be players in the offseason. The cost of inaction could simply be too expensive.
With what money though? That divorce is killing/killed their payroll. They’ll need some major pieces in the rotation and a couple position players. Lets be honest and admit that James Loney isn’t the answer at 1B. This would be a great year for them to get a legit 1B bat and at least one starting pitcher.
They have a good core of talent but their money issues are very real.
There is no dispute Mattingly was a talented player. Unfortunately he was beset by serious back problems that hindered him tremendously throughout the last 5-6 years of his career. The HOF won’t be calling, but this is due to injury, not lack of talent, and that is a shame.
From the curious department; despite being a beloved Yankee player, hitting coach, and bench coach for the Bombers, he was passed over in favor of Joe Girardi when the Yankee job was vacant. Is it possible that the Yankees know something that the Dodgers don’t? Does New York love Joe Girardi, THAT much? How will Donnie Baseball handle a pitching staff? For the answer to these, and other questions, stay tuned for the 2011 Los Angeles Dodgers…..
I think they just really wanted Girardi. He was very respected for his year in Florida so he already had that experience and they loved him when he was there. I think the year of experience pushed him over Donnie Baseball though.
Give Joe Torre the best team in the league and he can manage them to a pennant. The guy can fill out a lineup card like no one else.
IMO, he’s the perfect example for the theory that managers do not win games.
Unlike Phil Jackson, we’ve seen what Torre can do with a non-elite team.
I like Torre for the player he was and the man he is reputed to be, but has there ever been a manager that appeared to be “5 minute from asleep” more than he?
Reminds me of a quote from Harvey Kuehn, “the toughest part of being a manager is filling out the lineup card. I haven’t spelled a name wrong yet.”
Mattingly went to the mound twice in one inning, and in another game filled out the wrong lineup card. Nothing like using the major leagues to learn how to manage. This column also neglects to manage the most egregious example of Torre killing a relief pitcher, which was what he did to Broxton this season. The five-day stretch in late June saw Broxton pitch in four games in five nights, and warm up hard in the one game he didn’t appear. On the fifth day of that consecutive game stretch, Torre announced beforehand that he would hold Broxton out of that night’s game against the Yankees, having pitched the night before and in three of the previous four games. So what happens? Joe throws Broxton out there to preserve a four-run lead in the 9th inning. His fastball normally sits at 95-97, with the occasional 98-100. That game against the Yankees saw the fastball sitting 90-92, with no control and no command. Torre left him out there for 48 pitches, and the Yankees came back and won the game. Prior to that game, his ERA was under 1.00. From that game on through the rest of the season, his ERA is well over 7.00. If Mattingly has learned his game management under Torre, the Dodgers will be in for a long 2011, potentially losing close to 100 games.
That is an issue with Mattingly. If he was really really serious on being a legit manager, why not get a job as a minor-league manager? It would have likely been pretty easy for a team to give him a shot. I’d imagine the Yankees would have turned over one of their minor-league clubs. Instead, he was a special instructor for years and never did any real managing experience.
It should be interesting to see what he does now that he’s the man in the clubhouse.
Getting a bullpen job under torre is a death sentence. RE Mattingly managing the Yanks, he’s never been real comfortable with the press. I don’t think he could handle the Yankees job as his first managerial job. It’s too much to ask of anyone really.
Joe is one of the worst in-game managers baseball has seen in the past/current generation.
Well, I wouldn’t go that far. He’s one of the worst in-game managers who is still thought of as a very good manager. Considering Charlie Manuel outmanaged him 2 straight years in the playoffs…yeah, he’s pretty weak as a tactician.
Most managers that manage a team/roster as poorly as Joe are canned long before they get 29 years as a manager.
Charlie is very under rated as a manager. It’s no shame to be out managed by him, however, your point remains.
I’m thoroughly amused at how much the heat is now off Ned Colletti. Keep in mind that part of the reason the Dodgers are screwed with the Divorce proceedings is the poor spending on veteran mediocrities, pitching rotation, and over-paying in trades with their top young talent. Wouldn’t Carlos Santana look good behind the plate right now?
Then again, if we’re tallying up Joe Torre’s sins, don’t forget him riding Russell Martin into the ground.
Martin is overrated all on his own. He didnt need any help from Torre.
Why debate Mattingly’s talent as a player? It has zero correlation with how good a manager he will be. Did Bobby Cox and Tony Larussa pile up all those wins because of their playing ability? How great a manager was Ted Williams?
Torre was an excellent motivator of players and a definite killer of bullpens. The Yankees success with starting rotations consisting of the likes of Jaret Wright, Kevin Brown, Carl Pavano (sort of), Kenny Rogers, Kei Igawa, Darrell Rasner, Aaron Small, etc… suggests that the Yankees didn’t just show up and win. Handling Gary Sheffield and ARod and some of the other malcontents and busted-up circus dogs the Tampa “brain trust” brought in (Rondell White, Kenny Lofton… ring a bell?) shows that Joe knows how to manage a baseball team.
How much Don Mattingly learned sitting next to him remains to be seen.