Twins “All In” for 2012?

The Minnesota Twins have had a brutal 2011 season, to say the least. After winning the American League Central in both 2009 and 2010, they have plummeted into a tie for last with the Royals at the moment. There have been number of factors in the Twins’ collapse this season, from Joe Nathan‘s injury to Tsuyoshi Nishioka‘s injury followed by awful performance to Francisco Liriano’s control problems and more, but none loom larger than the injuries to Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau. Many observers have understandably concluded that it might be time for the Twins to “blow it up.” However, in his Friday column for ESPN Insider (summarized for non-subscribers here), Buster Olney reports that the Twins aren’t necessarily going to hit the reset button. While that does not necessarily back up the “All In” in the title of Olney’s column, that the Twins are even considering doing such a thing is intriguing.

A full diagnosis of the 2011 Twins and a prognosis for 2012 will have to wait until after the season. At the moment, I simply want to offer a few reflections in light of Olney’s report. Why might the Twins think they can go for it in 2012?

One reasons the Twins might want to go all-in in 2012 is that the American League Central just isn’t all that tough. The White Sox also had plenty of things go wrong this season, and they are heavily burdened by the big contracts of Alex Rios, Adam Dunn, and Jake Peavy, and don’t have much youth to fill those gaps. While Cleveland had a nice run this season, injury concerns going forward and rotation depth after Ubaldo Jimenez and Justin Masterson is questionable. The Royals have a nice group of young position players, but their minor league pitching hasn’t developed as the same pace. The Tigers also have some holes to fill.

However, while every team does have considerable problems, that probably won’t be enough by itself for the Twins to work themselves back into a contention. After all, all of the mentioned issues were present for the other teams this season and the Twins are still tied for last. The Tigers, in particular, are shedding some big contracts which might allow them to fill some more holes, and Jacob Turner should bolster their rotation from the minors. The other teams aren’t necessarily going to sit still in the off-season either, and Kansas City and (to a lesser extent) Cleveland have a number of younger players who can be expected to play better in 2012. The Twins are clearly going to have to make improvements on their end if they want to make a run of it next eason.

But that is the problem: where to start? The Twins have a good bit of money coming off of the books in the off-season, but it isn’t clear that it will be enough to fill all the holes they will have, especially in a thin free-agent market. Moreover, regression back toward the mean can only take a bad team so far. To skim the surface: Minnesota has some decent pitching, but only Scott Baker is both under contract and looks like a potential above-average pitcher for 2012, and he’s dealt with injury problems each of the last two seasons. They have a club option for Joe Nathan, but after a disaster 2011, do they really want to bring him back at $12.5 million in 2012?

The position player stable is just as troubling. While Alexi Casilla might now be a credible middle infielder, Nishioka may not be, and there doesn’t seem to be immediate help in the minors. Danny Valencia has regressed back to something fairly close to his (low) true talent level. If they don’t re-sign the likely-to-be-overpaid-in-free-agency Michael Cuddyer, the outfield of Denard Span (coming off of an injury), Jason Kubel (gives away his decent offensive production with the glove) and Ben Revere (can’t hit) is hardly imposing. And so it goes with everyone except the “special cases”: Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau.

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Mauer and Morneau are, of course, the crux of the biscuit. Their injuries were the biggest factor (or factors) in the Twins’ 2011 collapse. But their salaries relative to expected performance are probably the biggest reason why the Twins can’t just hit the reset button. Leaving aside fan perception, no trade clauses, and the like for the sake of simplicity, Morneau and Mauer are the only veterans (aside from perhaps Scott Baker, but for reasons stated below, the Morneau and Mauer issue is bigger) the Twins possess that could potentially bring back substantial value for a team looking to the future, at least in the abstract. The problem is that at this point, it isn’t clear that they would even bring back much value if the Twins could bring themselves to trade them. Morneau’s six-year, $80 million contract was questioned at the time it was signed, but through his monster (and foreshortened) 2010 season, it looked like it was working out well. However, the concussion that ended his 2010 season also means he only played in 69 games in 2011, and was brutally ineffective when he did play. He is owed $24 million over the next two seasons, which wouldn’t necessarily be that bad apart from the injury situation. But would anyone want to give up anything substantial for the risk Morneau would present at this point? It’s a concussion, and no amount of off-season working out and good intentions on the part of Morneau are going to have the final word on his return and future performance. He might be fine, he might not. Concussions are scary.

After his incredible 2009 performance, Joe Mauer gave the Twins a hometown discount premium with an eight-year, $184 million contract starting in 2011. In 2010, the season before the new contract actually began (2010), he put up an excellent 5.6 WAR. With the new contract commencing in 2012, Mauer has been hurt, missed about half the season, and has also been relatively ineffective when he has played. He wasn’t as bad as Morneau in 2012, so despite the disturbing lack of power (even by Mauer’s non-2009 levels), it is still likely that he’s a good hitter. However, even with his reported commitment to a new off-season workout regimen (which sounds more like “hey, I’m not going to have off-season surgery this year, so I’ll be able to work out more”), what team is going to want to give up something substantial to take a chance on the remaining seven years at $23 million per year at this point? At the time the deal was signed, it looked pretty fair: that is, not really favoring the team or the player from the perspective of expected performance relative to salary. Another way of looking at it would be that at the time there seemed to be about an equal chance that the Twins would do well or do badly in the end. At this point, it is looking more like the latter. Even leaving Mauer’s no-trade clause aside, the contract means that he wouldn’t have brought back that much straight up by itself, and after the injury, he’d be unlikely to bring back much in the way of building blocks for the future. Not until he proves he’s healthy, can hit at something like his old rate, and can play catcher full-time, at least. The Twins took what might have seemed like a reasonable gamble. There’s still time left to play, but at this point, with the happy “hometown boy sticks around” aura worn off, the Mauer contract isn’t looking so great.

To sum it all up, if the Twins really are going to try to go “all in” for 2012, it is less because of the potential of their team to contend, and more because that the two biggest contracts on their team aren’t going anywhere, at least not in a way that would speed up a rebuilding program. Stranger things have happened (just ask Tony Reagins and Alex Anthopolous), but things look like they might get get a fair bit worse before they get better in Minnesota.





Matt Klaassen reads and writes obituaries in the Greater Toronto Area. If you can't get enough of him, follow him on Twitter.

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Caveman Jones
14 years ago

I’m not that well-acquainted with the Twins organization, so please forgive me for my ignorance. My question is about the actual expected size of their payroll next year? I see that they already have about 65 M committed to next year, but do you think they’ll top this year’s payroll after that? I was under the impression that this year’s is one of the highest they’ve ever had, thanks to the Mauer contract, but I remember some talk about the Twins perhaps maintaining a higher payroll now that they have new stadium. Do you think ownership continues to spend more money? Or was this year mostly a blip on the radar?

That said, good article. One of the better ones I’ve read this week.

Chuck
14 years ago
Reply to  Caveman Jones

From what I’ve heard / read, the Twins payroll could be similar to this years. If they really wanted to go all-in I think they could add a few million, but in reality, I see Twins saying ‘there’s not enough talent available to justify spending that kind of free agent money’ and actually lowering payroll to around 105 mil. That is just my guess after following the team for a while now.

adohaj
14 years ago
Reply to  Caveman Jones

The payroll is the highest its ever been if I’m not mistaken. Target field sells out or gets close to it every game even though we have been out of it for a while now. The Fan base isn’t going anywhere from what I’ve seen.

hk
14 years ago
Reply to  adohaj

adohaj,

Are the seats still filled? There’s a big difference between a sell-out (tickets sold) and a full house when attempting to project next year’s attendance and possible payroll.

MX
14 years ago
Reply to  adohaj

They are filled. And there are plenty ‘o standing room tickets sold on top of that…

Anthony
14 years ago
Reply to  adohaj

Doesn’t the sell out this year have a lot to do with it being a fairly new season coming off of a strong year?

There have been studies where a new stadium will generate new interest and decline as the stadium gets older. Plus a playoff team draws more too.

If you really wanted to look at it, you’d have to see when the tickets were sold. My guess is that a majority of the tickets you see sold were sold before the Twins were seen as a bad team.

CircleChange11
14 years ago

Do any of the teams in the ALC go all-in or all-out?

I’m primarily speaking of the CWS, MIN, and DET. They pretty much just field a pretty good team year-in and year-out, and then annual fluctations during the season (injuries, luck, etc) seemt o determine which of the three actually “wins” the division.

It’s not unlike the NLC … where 3 teams likely have “equal talent”, with injuries, luck, etc determining which teams finishes first.

But, neither team really needs to do anything major in the off-season to remain in contention for the upcoming year. So, there’s never a reason to go “all-in” or “all-out”.

Going “all-in”, and actually doing it financially versus just using it as a slogan, seems to be one of the owrst things a team can do;. Firsly there just doesn’t seem to be enough quality free agents annually to really splurge and have that value be good spending. NYY bought the best 3 FA’s in one off-season, and that has worked out decently for them … at least early in the contracts. But, they’re also an exception.

What would “all-in” mean for the Twins? Signing Jose Reyes? Signing Prince Fielder? MIN would need almost everything to go “right” for that to actually work out as they planned, and rarely does everything go right.

CWS signed Dunn and I suppose some might consider that “all-in” (I owuldn;t, even though that’s the CWS slogan). That was just a FA acquisition.

Going all-in seems to me to indicate that the team is risking the future for immediate sucess. So, is MIN going to trade away prospects for stars? Sign big FAs? Of course not. The Twins are going to do the same thing they always do. make due with average or below pitching contracts while relying on their big stars to carry the burden, and plugging in homegrown talent where the holes are … and praying for good health.

This is where the difference between the NYY’s and MIN’s of the world is evident … depth.

IvanGrushenko
14 years ago
Reply to  CircleChange11

I think you could say the Brewers went “all in” in 2011. So for the Twins it might mean trading prospects for major leaguers, although I’ve no idea which prospects and which major leaguers

Dan Greer
14 years ago
Reply to  IvanGrushenko

The Twins have no prospects and few Major Leaguers.

cuck
14 years ago
Reply to  IvanGrushenko

actually the twins have quite a few prospects, just none they would be willing to trade. also, theyre all AA and below. kyle gibson is really the only one above AA with much value now. wimmers, hicks, sano, arcia, and rosario all are 2-4 years away

CircleChange11
14 years ago
Reply to  IvanGrushenko

Whenever I hear “all prospects are below AA” I start to think “okay, no real prospects for the near future”.

There are always exceptions of course, but they are usually the mega-talents everyone knows about.

AA seems to have a way of reducing prospect value.

Socrates
14 years ago
Reply to  CircleChange11

Detroit and the CWS go all in every year (for better or worse). They are two of the most aggressive organizations in free agency and at the trade deadline. I dont think that either franchise is particularly well run (I would actually say that that the AL central might be the worst run division), but you have to give them credit for going for it year after year.

Chuck
14 years ago

Here is what I’d do to go ‘All-In’:

Sign/trade for a decent hitting C/DH type to plattoon with Mauer to keep him healthy. Mauer can’t catch every game and Butera is painful at the plate.

Starting infield of Casilla / Plouffe with Nishi as your utility guy or in AAA. Plouffe adds some pop and Nishi has shown he’s not a MLB starter.

Sign a veteran OFer to take RF until Benson is ready. This is NOT Cuddyer since he’ll get way too much money. I’m thinking a Damon type guy.

Sign/trade for a front end of the rotation starter. Much easier said than done, but the Twins front 5 are not good. Liriano and Baker have shown flashes of being a solid #2. Bringing a #1 lets you shift Liriano, Baker, Pavano & Slowey down the ladder.

Move Duensing & Blackburn to the pen. The pen needs some live arms and Duensing has shown the ability to dominate in the pen and he’s exposed to righties too much starting. Blackburn just doesn’t belong in a rotation and nobody would trade for him.

Decline Nathan’s option, but resign him to a lower 2 yr deal. Bring back Perkins and bring in a solid RH 8th inning guy. Nathan, 8th inning guy, Perkins & Duensing would be a solid back 4 bullpen.

All of that said, the team isn’t much better constructed than the 2011 version of the Twins. It all comes back to M&M being healthy and production in that middle of the order. A RH C/DH with some pop would greatly help the lineup as there is a dearth of power in this proposal.

TwinsFan
14 years ago
Reply to  Chuck

What else does Benson need to prove?

TwinsFan
14 years ago
Reply to  TwinsFan

He’s shown power, he can get on base, he’s a good fielder

Chuck
14 years ago
Reply to  TwinsFan

To me nothing. I’d be fine with putting him out there to start the year. That OF Def would be phenominal.

However, I think the FO will bring some else in or bring Cuddy or Kubel back to give Benson more time in the minors.

Brian
14 years ago
Reply to  TwinsFan

That he can hit something other than AA pitching?

Jeff
14 years ago
Reply to  Chuck

I know you were talking about Damon more in terms of cost than skillset, but the thought of Damon in RF still made me laugh.

BX
14 years ago
Reply to  Chuck

I’d try to fill one of the non-1B infield positions (2B/SS/3B) via trade or FA. Find a good infielder who’s close to FA and on a noncontender (David Wright, anybody) and trade for him. .

hk
14 years ago
Reply to  Chuck

This looks like the wrong off-season to be seeking to significantly upgrade the pitching staff. The only #1 starter who is definitely a free agent after the season is CJ Wilson. CC Sabathia, Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright could all be free agents depending upon what happens with their (player or team) options. Because of the limited supply of #1’s, CJ Wilson will likely receive more than the Twins are willing to (and more than the Twins should) pay. In fact, there aren’t too many #2 starters who are going to be free agents in November. After CJ, CC, Carpenter and Wainwright, the best pitcher on the market will be someone like Mark Buehrle or Edwin Jackson.

Trading for a #1 starter is possible, but unlikely. Most of the #1 starters in baseball are on teams that will keep them. I don’t think Seattle will trade Felix this off-season (a la KC with Greinke last off-season) and, if they do, I don’t think the Twins have enough to give up for him.

Jimmy Wahl
14 years ago

Johnny Damon isn’t an every day outfielder anymore. Not by a long shot. He’s got slightly more defensive range than David Ortiz would have out there and Damons arm was never any good.

CJ Wilson could seriously bolster the Twins pitching staff and I think he’s a free agent this offseason.

TwinsFan
14 years ago
Reply to  Jimmy Wahl

He is, he probably won’t go to MN next year though

SC2GG
14 years ago

It’s funny that the article mentions Tony Reagins. You know, he does need a catcher… I mean, a catcher to spot Mathis a few days off once in a while and DH the rest of the time.. appropriately priced..

Socrates
14 years ago
Reply to  SC2GG

While I love the humor of the post, I think that Mauer’s contract is still lightyears better than Wells.

Max
14 years ago

The Twins are a bullpen, starting rotation, and half dozen adequate position players away from contending.

Lloyd Christmas
14 years ago
Reply to  Max

So you’re saying there’s a chance?!

DD
14 years ago

I’m sorry, I’m still rearranging the puzzle of years in the second to last paragraph? when does Mauer’s contract kick in? I think there are three different answers i the first three sentences. followed up by “He wasn’t as bad as Morneau in 2012” – how do you know how bad Morneau will be next year?

SHS
14 years ago

Matt Klaassen, you’re telling me you thought it was 50/50 at the time?
You thought Mauer’s deal was not overly 1 sided one way or the other?

You’re one of the BS WAR fangraphs guys arn’t you?
so and so is worth this much…….
That hilarious, not ONCE did i ever think the contract was remotely in favor of the Twins, not even with it being for the Fans, Mauer, revenue and everything he means to Minnesota. not even way before it was negoited did i think 23 Million a year over 7 was worthy for the organization. Not even a slightest bit of contemporary enthusiasm came over me.

I knew how badly mistaken the Twins were and how it’d effectively ruin any chance at doing anything more than just squeaking into post-season play,
for the immediate and semi-future.

So Matt you’re one of those BS guys that thought Mauer was deserving of 20M a year after 2009 because of his WAR arn’t you? HA nevermind the terrible UZR/150 factored into the equation (waaay to weighted) Nevermind it very well could of been Mauer’s career year (09) It may have been it may not be.
Nevermind he was an injury waiting to happen every 3 years or so even in his early 20’s.

But still

WAR is flawed plenty on its own.
I think far too many bloggers and baseball people take WAR and run with it, like its some sort of HOLY grail of horseshit stumpstomp.

Would you pay Ben Revere 6.5-7.0 Million a season for 7 years starting in 2012 or 2013?
Because thats exactly what you’re saying Matt when you speak to me everytime you right about you’re crap.

Bryz
14 years ago
Reply to  SHS

Umm, I read Twinkie Town, and I almost always love what I read from it… but who the hell are you?

Evan
14 years ago
Reply to  Bryz

By SHS I would assume it is Steve Hoffman-Slowey or something like that. He is just a random commentator…

Omman
14 years ago
Reply to  SHS

Ummm… this is trolling right? Some sort of satire?

Weird.

SHS
14 years ago

*write

Speak Volumes Matt.
Don’t tell us what we already know tell us what we would like to hear.

jim
14 years ago

i really don’t get the twinkie love.

Sox2727
14 years ago

The expression “tied for last” really needs to die. If two teams have the same record, you refer to them being tied for the highest position. If two teams finish atop a division and have a 1 game playoff, you don’t say they were tied for second.

Eminor3rdMember since 2019
14 years ago
Reply to  Sox2727

But ‘last’ changes based on the tie. If the bottom two teams are tied, fourth becomes last.

Barkey Walker
14 years ago

I don’t get why everyone things the Cuddyer contract was so bad. He was paid $10 million and produced 2.6 WAR. The contract was’t some huge team steel, but it wasn’t bad. Lots of the negative value comes from putting him in positions he can’t play (SS, 2B) where he doesn’t belong. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him sign for $5M this off season, why not pick him up for that?

The Twins need a backup option for 1B, and he is a reasonably contender for that.

Bryz
14 years ago
Reply to  Barkey Walker

Cuddyer’s current contract (with option exercised) became 4 years, $34.5 million. He’s only provided $27.8 million of value, mostly because he’s alternated 2 good years (’09 and ’11, 5.4 combined WAR) with 2 bad years (’08 and ’10, 0.8 combined WAR).

Barkey Walker
14 years ago
Reply to  Bryz

Thanks, now it makes more sense. Overpaying by 20% is bad, not awful, but pretty bad.

Barkey Walker
14 years ago

“the two biggest contracts on their team aren’t going anywhere” I wouldn’t be surprised to see Morneau retire this off season. I realize it sounds insane, but (based on what I’ve seen in press reports) it wouldn’t be a bad recommendation for him.

You also have to realize they shed Capps $17.5M of boat anchor closers this off season. Because of having Nathan for so long the Twins are very closer centric. They got addicted to the idea of being able to shut down the other team. I’d judge the front office this off season by what they do there.

option Joe Nathan = crazy awful
pay someone $10M = really bad
anything else = actually have their brain on

Barkey Walker
14 years ago

Sorry, one more comment, “Danny Valencia has regressed back to something fairly close to his (low) true talent level.” This is an insane comment. Did god come and tell you his true talent level? Look at the histories of position players and tell me that you can look at a second year players with numbers like that and know they will never become anything.

In his second year in Cleveland Thome batted 0.205 and hit 2 HR. Representing some sort of (low) true talent level?

Bryz
14 years ago
Reply to  Barkey Walker

Look at Valencia’s minor league numbers, they weren’t anything special to suggest that his 2010 season would be normal.

Sox2727
14 years ago
Reply to  Barkey Walker

You guys may be experiencing with Valencia what I like to refer to as Gordon Beckham syndrome. Half a good year as a rookie, followed by, well a lot of bad. I know Beckham’s numbers are worse offensively, but I’m not sure Valencia will repeat what he was in 2010.

Barkey Walker
14 years ago
Reply to  Sox2727

I don’t think he will be a great player, but I also don’t think it is insane to give him another couple of years in the majors to see if he comes up with something.

My point is you can’t know what he will turn into, it still just guesses.

Juancho
14 years ago

The Twins will actually be worse than the Röyals over the next three seasons.

Dan Gladden
14 years ago
Reply to  Juancho

Based on what? Hosmer and Butler? do you think Bruce Chen will somehow turn that rotation from choleric sh@t water into wine?

MNzach
14 years ago

As a season ticket holder and a lifelong, diehard twins fan, I can tell you that the twins version of going all in doesn’t mean the same thing as it does elsewhere. I wonder which no name pitcher and reclaimation project we will take a flier on this year? I love my twins but I hate their front office. Fire that bum gardy while you’re at it too.

anthony
14 years ago

After his incredible 2009 performance, Joe Mauer gave the Twins a hometown discount premium with an eight-year, $184 million contract starting in 2011. In 2010, the season before the new contract actually began (2010), he put up an excellent 5.6 WAR. With the new contract commencing in 2012, Mauer has been hurt, missed about half the season, and has also been relatively ineffective when he has played. He wasn’t as bad as Morneau in 2012, so despite the disturbing lack of power (even by Mauer’s non-2009 levels), it is still likely that he’s a good hitter

-that passage says the contract starts in 2010, then 2012, then 2011. which is it?
-it also says mauer wasn’t as bad as morneau in 2012 – meaning 2011?

Mr. Verlander
14 years ago

It would be amusing to see the Twins “all in”.

They are so disgustingly far off it’s almost not even funny.

I will probably throw a no-hitter or two against that franchise going forward.

Until then, I will try to shave off a few MPH’s against them to make it a more interesting competition.

Barkey Walker
14 years ago
Reply to  Mr. Verlander

Based on recent experience, if the Twins could face you every night, it would be a blessing.

Mr. Verlander
14 years ago

Like wow, that team has Michael Cuddyer as one of their “elite” hitters. The whole thing is really quite commical at this point.

They had a 45 year old basically be their best hitter for large parts of 2 seasons. That is sad.

TRE
14 years ago
Reply to  Mr. Verlander

Didn’t your team trade for Delmon Young and put him in the 3 hole immediately? Pot, meet kettle.

Principal Joel Skinner
14 years ago

I think the Twins have had the worst season of any team in baseball in that the near future sure seems hopeless. Their three best players going into the season all had the types of seasons that make you wonder if they’ll ever return to being good. Liriano turned into a Kazmir pumpkin. Morneau’s chronic back and concussion issues might be the end of his career. I can see Mauer turning it around because he’s amazingly talented, but damn if his injury-laden season and his relative struggles since returning don’t feel like a David Wright type of descent into merely good territory.

Most of the supporting cast is brutally bad. Nishioka doesn’t even strike me as a back-up major leaguer. His fielding seems subpar, he is a poor baserunner, he clearly can’t hit.

Even the good stories of 2011 don’t exactly make one excited for the future. Scott Baker came back and was very good, and then his season ended with elbow issues. Pavano pitched decently for his contract, so there’s that. Cuddyer has been solid, but he’s not young. I guess the only player who gave Twins fans something to look forward to is Revere, and that’s because of the flashes he showed, not his overall performance. Ugh. I hope I’m wrong, but things sure do look bleak for the Twinkies for the next few seasons.

Dave S
14 years ago

Twins went all in last year, when they traded “excess” catching (Wilson Ramos) for a “proven closer” ™ (Matt Capps).

good times…

TRE
14 years ago

Matt – Jason Kubel is also a free agent by the way. With the lack of bats available this off-season in Free Agency I would think there is a decent chance both he and Cuddyer will command a nice chunk of change.