Valuable or Not Valuable, Not Less Valuable
I wrote about my feelings on the MVP award earlier today, and I’d say at this point, I’d consider myself somewhat apathetic towards the actual result. People are going to define Most Valuable however they want, and in general, there’s little desire for a consistent, logical approach to coming up with an answer. For many, part of the appeal of the award is its ambiguity. I don’t really like ambiguity all that much, so that part of the process doesn’t appeal to me. And that’s okay. This award doesn’t have to appeal to me. I can sit at home and celebrate Mike Trout tonight whether anyone else is or not.
That said, before I bow out of the conversation entirely, I do want to ask one additional question of those who prefer their MVPs to come from winning teams: why are you simultaneously in favor of Mike Trout finishing second?
The must-come-from-a-winning-team argument can essentially be summed up in the feeling that the goal of every team is to make the playoffs, and any contributions that do not result in the achievement of that goal are of minimal value, because there is no real difference between 70 wins and 90 wins in terms of postseason qualification. All that matters is achieving the final goal, and without achieving that goal, everything was in vain.
I don’t necessarily agree with that position, but I can understand it, and to some degree, I understand that argument’s appeal. But what I don’t understand is why people who believe that argument are still willing to put Trout on their ballot at all, especially above every player in the league not named Miguel Cabrera.
If we disqualify Trout, and every other player on a non-playoff team, because his contributions didn’t result in achievement of The Goal, then what makes Trout more valuable than Josh Donaldson, Evan Longoria, Jacoby Ellsbury, or Max Scherzer? Each of them were clearly excellent in 2013, and for each of them, their achievements helped propel their team to the postseason.
The A’s won the AL West by just 5 1/2 games, and if you remove Josh Donaldson and replace him with a Triple-A scrub, they probably don’t make it to October. Take Scherzer — or any of the Tigers starters, really — out of their rotation and the Indians probably win the AL Central. The Red Sox don’t win 97 games without Ellsbury in center field. Why is Trout more valuable than any of these players, when their superb performances resulted in playoff berths for their teams and Trout’s did not?
These arguments, to me, seem incongruous. On the one hand, it is essentially dismissive of Trout’s performance accruing any value, because his team failed and so his contributions were rendered meaningless. We don’t think Donaldson, Ellsbury, or Scherzer’s contribtions were meaningless, though, so why is it completely acceptable to use this logic to exclude the best player from the first spot on the list but not the second, third, fourth, etc…?
I will readily admit to being biased in favor of logical consistency, and I struggle to see that here, so perhaps I’m missing something. Perhaps there’s a way to reconcile the belief that Trout’s performance has little value compared to Cabrera but more value than other players on winning teams who were 95% as good as Cabrera. I don’t see how those two beliefs co-exist, but I’m open to hearing how these two beliefs are not contradictory.
So, MVPs-must-be-from-winning-team believers, what’s the difference? Why can the best player be the second most valuable, but not the first most valuable? Why is this not a logical contradiction? Why does the take-him-off-the-team-and-they-don’t-make-the-playoffs argument only work for Miguel Cabrera and no one else?
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
1500+ words to explain that your apathy regarding this award?
Good try.
Apathy towards the final result doesn’t necessarily imply apathy regarding how people approach it.
Doh! – ‘explain your apathy’ is what I meant.
I would expect no less effort from someone in Dave’s position, in explaining why he doesn’t care about an association’s most significant award. Better that he lay out his reasons than simply dismiss the award outright without saying why.
There are several counter-arguments that point out pretty clearly how silly it is to say a player isn’t really valuable because his team isn’t making the playoffs anyways.
1. Flip it. If a team wins their division by 10+ games, then they couldn’t possibly have an MVP winner, because they’d have won their division anyways. How valuable is their best player, really? They’d likely be in the same position either way.
2. Play it out further. If a team wins their division by 1 game, then literally every player who helped them win a single game is more valuable than Mike Trout. Because each of them made the difference between making the playoffs and not, whereas Trout did not. Ergo, using this logic, Brandon Inge was more valuable than Mike Trout last season.
Here’s an analogy to consider. We each want to buy something that costs $1. I’ve got a quarter, 8 nickels, and 10 pennies. My “team” of coins is worth 75 cents and falls short of being able to buy the item. You have one dime and 18 nickels. Your “team” is worth $1, and you successfully buy the item.
If your dime more valuable than my quarter simply because it led to a successful item purchase?
Hey, how about a citation there, big guy? That looked really familiar to me because you just copied and pasted and old post of mine!
To James’ first point… the Angels would have to be MORE than 10 games in first place for Trout not to matter. That’s how good he is.
Here’s a link to the post from which you sourced this thing you did not write.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/trout-and-cabrera-here-we-go-again/
The voters overall think being on a winning team is just part of the equation, not a prerequisite, thus feel no inconsistency in voting Cabrera 1st, Trout second and then, say, Donaldson 3rd. Also, the voters basically feel they are voting for best hitter. All other things being equal, best hitter on a winning team. Or, all else equal, best hitter who plays a fielding position. Thus, again,would not feel it inconsistent to vote Cabrera 1st, Trout second, and, say, Ortiz 3rd (if his batting stats were equivalent to Cabrera’s).
I’m not saying this is the right way to vote, but it seems to be the collective mind of the voters and isn’t really very inconsistent (or a logical contradiction), even if it doesn’t appear to value fielding, base-running or positional scarcity as much as we may believe it should.
Another salvo in a debate that certainly should be had, regardless of whether it results in changes in the thought process behind the award. So two things:
1. I figured I would toss another wrench in an objective argument (and not saying I believe in MVP voting this way):
Mike Trout is cost controlled, and puts up MVP caliber numbers while being paid league-minimum-ish. And the Angels spoiled it.
2. Can we please have a not-graphs article about the most thumbs-upped/downed comments of all time on fangraphs?
I still have a job to do, and that job requires me to talk about the things going on in baseball that people are interested in. Writing 1,500 words on Nick Punto wasn’t an option.
And what are you going to tell us next week when you deliver 1500 words on Nick Punto?
That’s the beauty of Fangraphs. Deep dives on the fecklessness of MVP voting and Nick Punto, or an unheralded minor leaguer whose name has hopelessly infected Cistulli’s brain. Room for all of that.
I like Nick Punto!
Me too!!!!
But I’m interested in Nick Punto!
I’m interested in disillusionment towards popular awards as well, though. Hence my fangraphs readership.
I didn’t mean to sound like I was complaining. I enjoyed and agree with both posts on the topic. I just thought it was funny when you claimed apathy towards the result, and then said “I can sit at home and celebrate Mike Trout tonight whether anyone else is or not”.
Enough already, please just congratulate Miggy, even if like Verlander two years ago, it’s through gritted teeth.
Everyone realizes that they probably won’t get to have gay sex with Mike Trout whether he wins MVP or not, right? Either way you can masturbate while calculating his UZR and chatting with KLaw all off season. Carry on your discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Why do people who oppose the managing editor of Fangraphs views so adamantly read his content? Why do they resort to ad hominems and lazy homosexual slurs? Why can’t they simply answer the question laid out in the article, instead deflecting the logical inconsistency in their positions?
I’d be much more interested to read an article about Nick Punto if that’s actually what you care about than a cynical attempt to get page clicks by writing about something you think is irrelevant.
This is essentially the appeal of Carson Cistulli. No one really cares about what he writes, but no one’s more sincere/tries harder.
Writing 1500 words on Nick Punto is a privilege.
I’ll wager that there will be 1500+ words arguing Nate’s comment before all is said and done.
I voted -1 because this post in no way approaches 1500 words, this Fangraphs.
618 words to be exact.
You’re welcome.
This post plus the post from earlier in the day, do in fact add up to over 1500 words.