What Does Jesus Montero’s Future Look Like Now?
The Mariners stuck with it for 735 innings. Despite the fact that nearly everyone in baseball agreed that Jesus Montero could not catch at an acceptable level in the Major Leagues, the Mariners let him try for the equivalent of a half season spread out over eight painful months. Now, it seems like the organization is accepting the reality that Jesus Montero is not, and will never be, a Major League catcher. As of today, he isn’t even a Major League player.
The Mariners are swapping out Jesuses in their backup catcher role — Montero had already lost the starting gig to vaunted superstar Kelly Shoppach — by replacing Montero with Jesus Sucre, the polar opposite of Montero as a player. Sucre is a no-bat defensive specialist, but given Montero’s struggles on both sides of the plate, a non-prospect catch-and-throw backup is probably an upgrade at this point.
So, with Montero back in Triple-A for the foreseeable future, I figured it would be a good time to re-do an exercise we did with Montero 17 months ago, when he was first traded from New York to Seattle. At that point, we walked through a list of comparable bat-first prospects who reached the Majors at an early age, noting that players of this type have turned into superstars, but that the median forecast based on similar prospects called for Montero to turn into a good hitter, not a great one. I ended that piece with the following paragraphs:
The upside for Montero to be a Cabrera, Piazza, or Fielder is real. However, history suggests that it is not the only path, or even the most likely one, for Montero to take. There have been a lot of prospects who received similar accolades for their offensive potential who have handled the upper levels of the minors at young ages as well. We’ve identified two dozen of them here, and the median slash line from this group was .281/.349/.491, good for a 117 wRC+.
That’s a nice hitter, but it’s not the kind of bat you can build a franchise around. For Montero to reach the upper tier, he’s simply going to have to show a bit more selectivity at the plate, and adapt to facing a good number of pitches out of the zone. If he makes that leap and improves his command of the strike zone, he could be a monster. But we need to recognize that it’s still an if, not a when. Some guys never figure that out, and if Montero doesn’t either, he’ll settle in as a good hitter rather than a great one.
To this point, Montero has not yet made that adjustment. He swings at pitches out of the strike zone far too often, and his aggressive approach greatly limits his ability to get into fastball counts and sit on a pitch he can hammer. Right now, Jesus Montero is not a very good hitter, and as a guy who has zero Major League skills besides hitting, that’s a problem. But, at the same time, he’s 23-years-old, and as Rob Neyer noted today, there are examples of very similar players being terrible through age-23 and then developing after they moved out from behind the plate. In fact, Rob’s example — Carlos Delgado — made our original list of comparisons for Montero, so it might be useful to look at the other players we identified as Montero comparisons and see how they’d done through the same point in their careers.
So, here’s that same list of players we used in that post in January of 2012. Two dozen top prospects, almost all of whom hit well enough to get promoted to the big leagues at age 20 or 21, who were considered potential superstars because of their offensive prowess. Only this time, we’ve added Montero to make the list 25 names long, so you can see where he stacks up, and instead of showing career numbers, we’re going to present just their performance through their age-23 season.
| Name | PA | BB% | K% | ISO | BABIP | AVG | OBP | SLG | wOBA | wRC+ | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Miguel Cabrera | 2,392 | 10% | 19% | 0.225 | 0.353 | 0.311 | 0.384 | 0.535 | 0.387 | 138 | 15.1 |
| Juan Gonzalez | 1,977 | 6% | 20% | 0.261 | 0.287 | 0.274 | 0.326 | 0.535 | 0.375 | 133 | 11.3 |
| Alex Rodriguez | 2,843 | 7% | 17% | 0.243 | 0.330 | 0.308 | 0.363 | 0.551 | 0.391 | 133 | 26.1 |
| Vladimir Guerrero | 1,058 | 6% | 13% | 0.233 | 0.320 | 0.313 | 0.359 | 0.546 | 0.384 | 132 | 8.1 |
| Manny Ramirez | 962 | 12% | 20% | 0.243 | 0.313 | 0.285 | 0.375 | 0.528 | 0.388 | 131 | 4.2 |
| Prince Fielder | 1,391 | 11% | 19% | 0.266 | 0.294 | 0.280 | 0.369 | 0.546 | 0.384 | 131 | 5.6 |
| Ben Grieve | 1,344 | 12% | 19% | 0.188 | 0.322 | 0.281 | 0.376 | 0.469 | 0.371 | 121 | 2.0 |
| Justin Upton | 2,402 | 10% | 24% | 0.211 | 0.337 | 0.277 | 0.357 | 0.487 | 0.364 | 119 | 13.3 |
| Chipper Jones | 606 | 12% | 17% | 0.186 | 0.289 | 0.268 | 0.355 | 0.454 | 0.357 | 114 | 3.1 |
| B.J. Upton | 1,554 | 12% | 24% | 0.149 | 0.355 | 0.277 | 0.367 | 0.426 | 0.350 | 113 | 9.0 |
| Andruw Jones | 2,619 | 9% | 18% | 0.222 | 0.294 | 0.272 | 0.344 | 0.494 | 0.359 | 112 | 25.3 |
| Eric Chavez | 1,623 | 9% | 16% | 0.219 | 0.288 | 0.275 | 0.343 | 0.494 | 0.355 | 112 | 8.8 |
| Hank Blalock | 1,500 | 9% | 19% | 0.212 | 0.310 | 0.279 | 0.347 | 0.490 | 0.358 | 110 | 8.9 |
| Jay Bruce | 1,412 | 9% | 23% | 0.217 | 0.290 | 0.257 | 0.327 | 0.474 | 0.346 | 108 | 7.2 |
| Paul Konerko | 811 | 8% | 14% | 0.185 | 0.279 | 0.270 | 0.328 | 0.455 | 0.340 | 100 | 1.3 |
| Adrian Beltre | 2,553 | 8% | 16% | 0.162 | 0.292 | 0.267 | 0.327 | 0.429 | 0.327 | 98 | 12.4 |
| Shawn Green | 910 | 6% | 17% | 0.186 | 0.306 | 0.274 | 0.324 | 0.460 | 0.339 | 97 | -0.2 |
| Aramis Ramirez | 1,268 | 6% | 17% | 0.182 | 0.295 | 0.271 | 0.321 | 0.453 | 0.333 | 96 | 2.8 |
| Jesus Montero | 732 | 6% | 19% | 0.137 | 0.291 | 0.258 | 0.303 | 0.396 | 0.302 | 94 | -0.1 |
| Delmon Young | 1,851 | 4% | 19% | 0.126 | 0.340 | 0.290 | 0.322 | 0.416 | 0.321 | 93 | -1.0 |
| Vernon Wells | 845 | 4% | 14% | 0.164 | 0.295 | 0.277 | 0.308 | 0.441 | 0.323 | 92 | 1.7 |
| Mike Piazza | 74 | 5% | 16% | 0.087 | 0.268 | 0.232 | 0.284 | 0.319 | 0.279 | 77 | 0.0 |
| Carlos Delgado | 260 | 12% | 28% | 0.185 | 0.220 | 0.194 | 0.300 | 0.378 | 0.297 | 72 | -1.3 |
| Karim Garcia | 731 | 6% | 22% | 0.167 | 0.257 | 0.223 | 0.268 | 0.391 | 0.284 | 63 | -2.3 |
| Andy Marte | 304 | 7% | 20% | 0.155 | 0.234 | 0.201 | 0.263 | 0.356 | 0.270 | 59 | -1.2 |
Pretty much without exception, the guys who turned into elite hitters were already good big league hitters by age-23. A-Rod and Vlad didn’t draw walks, but they made a lot of contact and hit for power. The rest of them showed approaches beyond their experience level, and all hit for a bunch of power too. At this point, it seems silly to keep comparing Montero to guys like Cabrera or Manny, because they were dominant Major League sluggers at the point at which Montero is getting shipped back to Triple-A to remember how to hit.
But, there are some late bloomers on that list too. Aramis Ramirez put up numbers that were nearly identical to Montero’s current line once you adjust for the differences in league averages and the ballparks they played in. Aramis Ramirez has gone to become a very good hitter, posting a 122 wRC+ since the start of his age-24 season. Ramirez never really learned how to take a walk, but he improved his contact rate significantly and started hitting for even more power as he got older, and that helped him develop into an offensive force even without being very selective.
And, of course, there’s Delgado, who was already mentioned. He put up a 137 wRC+ after his age-23 season, and his early performance was even worse than Montero’s. But, we should note that Delgado’s performance was driven by a .220 BABIP, and that he did show the power and patience skills that would allow him to become a dominant hitter later. His breakout at age-24 was essentially a BABIP correction, and Montero hasn’t had that same kind of issue driving down his offensive performance.
Among all of the guys who were below average Major League hitters through age-23, here is how they did in the Majors starting with their age-24 season:
Mike Piazza: 141 wRC+
Carlos Delgado: 137 wRC+
Aramis Ramirez: 122 wRC+
Shawn Green: 121 wRC+
Adrian Beltre: 116 wRC+
Vernon Wells: 107 wRC+
Delmon Young: 100 wRC+
Karim Garcia: 90 wRC+
Andy Marte: 71 wRC+
This list confirms what Neyer noted this morning; it is too early to give up on Jesus Montero’s bat. Even if we discount the Delgado example a little bit and note that Piazza didn’t really get an opportunity until age-24, you still have some pretty decent hitters like Ramirez, Green, and Beltre as similarly slow starters who eventually did develop into good hitters.
Unfortunately, guys like Green and Beltre became good players in part because they played quality defense and ran the bases well. Montero is likely going to be one of the worst defenders and baserunners in baseball for as long as he’s playing the sport. The entirety of his value is going to come from his bat, and even a 122 wRC+ from a DH doesn’t make him that special of a player. Basically, his only path to living up to the hype is hitting like Delgado, and he hasn’t yet shown the same skills that Delgado showed through age-23.
Getting released from the tools of ignorance should help Montero, as he can stop focusing on trying to become a terrible defensive catcher instead of a disaster behind the plate, and there is some evidence of catching taking a toll on a player’s offensive performance. Of course, there’s also evidence that DHing takes a toll on a player’s offensive performance, so it’s not like moving from C to DH is automatically going to result in Montero mashing the baseball.
But, history does warn against writing off this kind of prospect prematurely. There are other guys who have had similar struggles at the big league level and still turned into good hitters. There is also, however, Delmon Young, Karim Garcia, and Andy Marte. While those guys represented just a small portion of our original list of comparisons, they’re now a much more prominent part of the Montero comparisons. And we can’t ignore the fact that guys like Young, with similar pedigrees and similar skillsets, have just never improved and remain valueless end-of-roster scrubs.
Don’t give up on Jesus Montero. Don’t even completely give up on Jesus Montero becoming a really good hitter. But it is worth noting that his stagnant development paints a significantly weaker picture of the future than we saw a year and change ago, and at this point, Montero’s likely outcome if he develops is probably that of an average DH. As we evaluate similar prospects going forward, it is helpful to remember that forecasting offensive superstardom should not be done lightly, and if a player absolutely has to hit at a high level in order to be a valuable piece, he’s probably not an elite prospect after all.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
I’ve given up on Jesus Montero
I still believe this will happen: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1059441-jesus-montero-10-what-would-have-been-moments-of-lost-yankees-career
Yes, its Bleacher Report, but this is a pristine example of homerism in its wild state, so its worth a lol.
I seriously can’t tell if that article is tongue-in-cheek or not.
I think it is. The consecutive games one sold me on it. It’s pretty funny, and it’s great that it got published.
has to be
all you had to do was say “yes, it’s bleacher report”.
after reading it i can safely say that is the funniest thing i have ever read.
Obviously. This’ll all happen after the Yankees trade Ivan Nova for him and have K-Long re-teach him how to hit.
I have a new appreciation for vintage 1999-2000 Andruw Jones.
Montero for the Mariners: 164 games played, 553 PAs, -.7 WAR.
Pineda for the Yankees: 0 games played, o batters faced, 0 WAR.
I think the Yankees are looking really good in that trade right now.
Don’t forget Hector Noesi’s -.4 WAR.
Trading your below replacement level players for injured pitchers is the new market inefficiency.
You two are a couple of cards, although I agree completely with the sentiment. You left off Jose Campos from the prospect eval, though, and he’ll be the one who may prove most significant. His elbows sound again after _also_ missing all last year, and he has six decent starts in low A behind him with credible numbers. He didn’t have decent secondary stuff before being moved, and likely doesn’t yet, but his fastball life and command was exceptional. To me, he’ll be the next great Yankee reliever if his arm is al the way back. But that’ll take another 2 years or so to sort itself out. By which time, nobody will remember he was part of The Deal of Tears.
The comparison between Pineda and Montero’s WAR is misleading. A team full of injured players would forfeit all of its games and go 0-162 on the season, while a team full of players like Montero would still win a few games, perhaps 40 per season. Therefore, even a below-replacement player who takes the field has a greater value than a player who does not play at all.
That’s just not true at all. A team of injured players would replace those injured players with replacement-level players and win more games than a team of -0.7 WAR players. The entire idea of WAR is that a value lower than 0 is worse than just cutting that player and finding someone else; an injury is better than putting up a negative WAR.
Now if Jesus Montero came back as a DH, Sucre was at catcher, and the M’s acquired David DeJesus, they’d have a Holy Trinity. Perhaps in name only but still that’d be awesome.
I signed the following players to 6 year contracts (unique dynasty league):
Miguel Cabrera
Buster Posey
Madison Bumgarner
Jose Bautista (win-now approach)
&
…
Jesus Montero. I cannot demote him without sending him through waivers. I just picked up Yan Gomes. Gew.
I was thinking that you should have signed them for 7 years instead of just 6 but then I remembered that nobody gives a shit about your fantasy team, myself included.
Was about to write, “someone gave a shit, they gave him a Jesus Montero”, and then I actually did write it, so now I’m left to note that it’s a mean thing to have written. Mean to Jesus Montero; it’s important to separate skills analysis from personal insults.
And to separate Fangraphs from Rotographs.
like Manti Teo’s girlfriend
Are you sure Karim Garcia qualifies for the list? I thought he was an age-gate guy and therefore probably did not get to the majors at a comparable age.
Yes, knocking the bottom man off the list doesn’t do much for Jesus’ chances…
Can we as FanGraphs commenters, in our own little community, break from the god-awful tradition of putting “gate” on the end of any and every controversy? I know it’s a widely used technique across other media, but we are a uniquely enlightened and cultured lot (hey no snickering! This is my fantasy dammit!)
I emphatically agree with you. There hasn’t been a real gate since WMD-gate.
WHAT ABOUT SPYGATE!
I forgot to close the gate and all our cattle got loose and wandered off…my wife won’t soon let me forget gate-gate!
Do we have reason to believe Montero can’t turn into an adequate or better first baseman? I would think you’d want any player to max out whatever defensive value he can have, so the Mariners need to train Montero at first, and maybe even left (where admittedly his wheels might hurt him more).
He’s too young to be Dunn.
Yeah, that’s probably part of why he’s getting demoted.
I mean, if Montero settles in as a 1B and gets his head right, it’s not like Smoak is blocking him.
Left field? Every ball hit down the line would be an inside the park home run. Not even the current M’s brass would do that to their fan base.
Montero could learn to be a Frank Thomas quality 1b some day, probably, but he’s gotta start hitting or no one will ever care.
“but he’s gotta start hitting or no one will ever care.”
This! If he can hit then hit bat will play somewhere, whether it’s DH or 1B. If his hitting doesn’t improve, the positioning is ultimately just…details.
There is no possibility that Jesus Montero will play first base in the majors. He is worse than Dunn; yes, really, we’ve all gotten to watch him here in the NW. Montero has _never_ played a single inning at the position. Montero is as immobile as the worst bigfoot bogle you’ve ever seen in your local softbeer league. His hands are terrible. I actually like Jesus, which I wanted to say as a preface before mentioning that he’s the least sharp tool rusting in the middle of the field you’ll find in most of the majors. Jesus Montero is NOT going to cut if as a 1B.
And the fact that the Mariners are going to ‘pretend’ to start to teach him that position now is yet one more assinine move in the misdevelopment program this organization has pursued since acquiring Jesus. Montero was very young and very terrible as a catcher when acquired. Yes, yes, Jesus has far more value if he catches even part-time, so the decision was made to keep hima at catcher. . . . And frankly, that wasn’t a terrible decision. There are and have been several ‘catchers’ in the majors in recent memory who were worse than Jesus is now (Doumit, Javy Lopez for two). But the major leagues are not in anyway the place for Montero to have gotten reps to be functionally bad at the position. Montero should have been in AAA last year and most of this firming up his defense and learning to lay off pitches he couldn’t reach.
Instead, the Mariners were desparate for an elite bat in Seattle so they promoted him before he was ready. He hit last year about like one would expect for 22-year-old with a 5% walk rate. To my eyes, his hitting went wildly downhill when he was moved to catch full time last June (but then again others have said the reverse, so I’ll leave it to someone else to parse the dates/outcomes). Last year the Marniers drafted a high end _catcher_ prospect. I twas obvious that the guy was going to surpass Montero—and yet the Mariners didn’t move to position Jesus differently. Instead, they doubled down. Montero was kept at catcher going into the 2013 season. No, Montero was made the _full-time, STARTING catcher_, and drilled intensively every day in all the defensive facets. Which he is not really capable of applying. Which intensive program of drills and full time catching seems to have driven his batting right out of his head. This was just completely nonsensical. The Mariners essentially forced Jesus Montero into the exact usage situation where he was MOST likely to fail. And he failed. And now, he’s being the scapegoat for exceptionally stupid, stubborn, double-down loser developmental planning by the sub-genius minds running the show in the Seattle org. Despite the fact that Dustin Ackley is a) argualby a bigger failure, b) more responsible for his own unwillingness to adapt at the plate, and c) has a far better replacement ready for a trial down in AAA.
The Mariners’ developmental plan for Jesus Montero has been really, really a major fail. Of the scale you’d think someone would get fired for it. Well . . . more moves to come. I do hope that Jesus comes around with the bat, and makes his living going forward as a DH who catches maybe 25 games a year. That’s about what he should have been developed for. He’ll likely be back for his age 25 season, somewhere, to try just that. But I don’t expect to see him here later this year, no, it’ll likely take him all season simply to salvage himself. And by the time Jesus Montero is back in the bigs, I strongly suspect that the folks who ‘planned’ his development in Seattle will be employed elsewhere, if at all. _They’ve_ had their chance too, and their failure is more evident than Jesus’s if one bothers to add up the mistakes.
Well, like I said above, I’m hoping the Yanks re-acquire him and help him forget whatever the Mariners tried to teach him about hitting.
Actually, I just hope that any team without a track record of ruining elite hitting prospects picks him up. I fucking love Jesus Montero and I want him to do well. That’s not going to happen in this organization.
So Cool Lester, I also like Jesus, he’s a sweet guy who wants to succeed and has done all he was asked to do as far as I can see. Certain parts of the fan base who like to talk guys down when they’re down are vicious on him for what he can’t physically do, but I’m not one of them. I’ve really liked Montero’s swing at times, it’s easy to look at it _still_ and see an elite hitter in there trying to fight his way out of the crumpled shell of an overaggressive approach.
But this ‘organization which ruins elite hitters’ meme . . . not so much. You’re not the only one I’ve heard say this, and it sounds like I’m contradicting my comments above, but I don’t think that there’s a case that the Mariners org ‘messes up great hitters.’ The org has made some bad developmental decisions, yes, in part because the major league team has been so bad ugly that moves were tried that shouldn’t have been. The misusage of Jesus Montero is the worst of those moves, to me, and has played directly into Jesus’ floundering which has led to this scapegoat demotion. Jack Zd has a demonstrated record of pushing a scapegoat out in front of the angry peasants to take the beating also, and to me this is one more instance, part of which has about finished Jack Zd in my book.
But I don’t think there’s a case for the Ms ‘ruining elite _hitters_.’ It’s an interesting debated, you can name your instances as you want, but I don’t see it. See, Ackley _never WAS_ an elite hitter in the minors. Go back and look, and the flaws are plain (though a subject for a different comment than this one). Smoak isn’t and never was a major league hitter; nobody ‘ruined’ him, he’s exactly who he’s always been. Jones, Cabrera, and Choo were never given any real playing time here; nobody ‘messed them up.’ Michael Saunders was an obvious mess when promoted, cratered with his former swing, and to his credit did what he had to do to retool himself. You can make an argument that he shouldn’t have been promoted, as one can for Carlos Peguero and Greg Halman also, but these were largely forced choices of guys with known flaws which the org had been trying to _fix_ to their credit.
I don’t think that most folks who don’t watch games at Safeco in Seattle realize how difficult a place it is in which to hit. The batter’s eye has always been a significant problem. The marine layer has historically killed flyballs to the left of center. Even good hitters have bad numbers here in many, many cases. It’s a very bad place for flawed young hitters with big swings to come and try to make a living hitting major league pitching. And even so, good hitters have come here and hit, for instance Kyle Seager, and Kendrys Morales. That is the real point: good hitters _hit_ here, and the guys who haven’t are, for the most part, just not particularly good hitters.
One can blame the org for acquiring not-good hitters. One can certainly blame the org for promoting not-good hitters. One can absolutely blame the org, with pitchforks and firebrands, for shoving not-good hitters into full time jobs and keeping them there against all evidence that they’re inept and should be immediately replaced. But blaming the org for ‘ruining good hitters’ doesn’t seem to me to have a fact set behind it.
After some point you have to start blaming the club, The Mariners have had terrible offenses for years, they have made trades for very touted offensive talents….every single one of them has floundered. What’s worse is that they all have almost the exact same issues, zero patience and will swing at everything.
I’m a Yankee fan, and I’ll be the first to admit they are not good at nurturing pitchers to make the most of their talents. The bright side is that they have made some attempts to rectify that with the hiring of Gil Patterson.
The Mariners appear to be beyond terrible in helping their young hitters, you can’t just absolve the club for everything by saying “well so-and-so was just overrated” at some point you have to start looking at those who are in charge.
That means all the Minor league hitting coaches, the instructors in the Bigs, even the roaming hitting instructors need to be examined because something isn’t right to not have produced, or nurtured (in the cases of guys who were traded) a single league average hitter, let alone an above average hitter.
if your a manager of a resturant and your business is failing despite the fact you have great tasting food, fair prices in a good heavily trafficked area, eventually you need to start looking at whether your employees are doing there jobs.
My main issue is that their young hitters seem to get worse every year, not better. A team with a good coaching staff should be able to help their players improve; these guys have regressed heavily.
So SDM, I’m more than willing to blame the club for failures of talent development planning. The problem with your contention regarding ‘the Ms teach bad hitting’ is that your assessments of the Mariners younger players is completely _inaccurate_. Ackely and Smoak were both highly touted prospects. Both have floundered. Both are amongst the MOST patient hitters in the game. Smoak, now, has an ISBB of over .100. One of Ackely’s major flaws is an _excess_ of patience; he is routinely called out on strikes taking pitches that he needs to foul off or hit. Michael Saunders was another guy with excellent strike zone judgment who initially let wa-a-ay too many strikes go by looking for the perfect pitch.
Yes, the Mariners have messed up Jesus Montero—by forcing him to try to learn a position he can’t handle. Montero was ALWAYS an overagressive swinger, that’s exactly who he was in the Yankee org; the Mariners didn’t ‘teach him to be a free swinger.’ The main argument here against acquiring Montero wasn’t even his defensive incapacity as it was his excessive swing rates both in zone and out.
So blame the Ms for what they do—but only that, not some fabulation. Most of the overagressive swingers here weren’t taught to do that; the org in fact stresses patience in instruction. Take a look at Nick Franklin’s swing profiles here at Fangraphs as he’s moved up: he’s learned patience. Zunino came in and has been a hack-a-matic, but there’s no evidence that the Ms _told_ him to do that. And so on. Most of the guys who’ve not cut it as hitters here simply _aren’t that good at hitting_. THAT has been the Ms fail, acquiring too many guys who don’t cut it.
So Balthazar, your argument is that the M’s don’t ruin hitting prospects. To argue that they didn’t ruin Ackley, you point to his poor Minor League numbers. Ummm . . . which organization was he playing for when he put up those poor numbers?
Please,don’t suger coat it !
Speaking as a Mariners fan who saw him cost us the game against the Indians when he couldn’t keep his foot on homeplate, is he really demonstrating a skillset, currently, that’ll translate to being a good first baseman?
How many times will he forget to cover the base in time? Or worse, trying helplessly to touch first while praying with tears of embarrassment rolling down his cheek that he could just reach the damn bag with his out-stretched toe, only to realize that the batter had already slid safely into second!
Right. Perfect. Sign me up for that! I just hope he can fool the Marlins long enough into believing he could be Mike Napoli that we can use him (along with a handful of real prospects) to get Stanton. God knows he probably won’t ever be ready to wear Edgar’s shoes and provide even 1/2 of Gar’s production.
This is a true story. My son has absolutely no athletic ability. None. Zero. I am not exagerating. My wife asked what sports we should put him in to help him stay healthy. I told her swimming because he likes water and he’s fat, which means that if he forgets how to flail around in the water, makes it that much easier and safer to do for him. Then I thought about it for a second more and told her baseball would be good also. She said, “they make a lot of money right?” Then she paused, “but baseball players are usually very athletic, I guess there’s no chance of him ever playing professionally, is there?” To answer her question, I showed her a video of Jesús Montero running the bases during his first MLB triple and before he could reach 3rd, she had googled the local chapter of the little league and had signed my son up to play. Her comment as Montero was dusting himself off, while standing at 3rd… “If he can play major league baseball, so can he (pointing in the general direction of my 9 year old, who was picking at the PS3 callus building on his right thumb, as he ate pringles off the small mountain he had built just above his belly button, while laying on the couch).”
You know why Montero is good for baseball? He is a beacon of hope for all the short fat unathletic kids dillusional enough to think they might have a chance to get paid millions so that others can watch them hit a ball and run awkwardly around a dirt and sod covered field. Guys like Jesús will always be better ambassadors for baseball then all the Alex Rodríguezs and Derek Jeters of the sport. If he becomes a star, Disney should make a movie about his life and how he overcame a total lack of athletic ability to become a profesional ball player.
“we can use him (along with a handful of real prospects) to get Stanton”
C’mon now. You have to at least offer them sixty cents for their dollar to see if they bite; I don’t think eight cents will get it.
I’m rooting for Jesus. With a little good fortune, he could regress into a BJ Upton type player by his late 20’s.
Yeah, except they are polar opposites. Name one physical attribute besides height that BJ Upton and Montero have in common? Jesús way more contact, BJ more patience. Jesús tons of natural power but limited to no game power, BJ minimal natural power but he has above-average game power. Jesús slow, BJ fast. Jesús bad defender, BJ good defender. Jesús can’t steal anything and is worse at preventing it, BJ has larceny in his heart and routinely uses his strong outfield arm to prevent sac flies and runners getting extra bases going 1st to 3rd. BJ one of the very best athletes in the world, Jesús one of the very worst athletes in the world. If anyone in a Mariners uniform is going to be BJ Upton and not lose his spot in the starting lineup, it would be Ackley. Not Montero.
Jesus walks like this, but BJ Upton walks like this
Jesus walks on water. BJ walks back to the dugout after striking out.
I’ve seen much worse approaches at the plate than Jesus. Many people focus on his underachieving offensive numbers but it was his inability to play the catcher position that limited his playing time. I think there’s something to be said for allowing a player consistent at-bats to give him a chance to get into a groove. This demotion is potentially the best thing to happen in Jesus’ career. Not only will he move away from the dreaded catcher position, he will also find himself with everyday at-bats and a chance to get his confidence up. Baseball is a lot like golf in that you need to have your mind right. I still very much believe in Jesus Montero’s bat and think that with the position change, consistent at-bats, and a boost of confidence Jesus will be again be very solid at the plate.
Hard to predict. But to be a long-term success at Dh is pretty hard, a lot of sitting around. You have to wake up and play a position sooner or later. He’s no Matt Stairs.
Yeah, too tall and different accent. Ay!
What would Jesus do?
Hit a strike.
Hit anything.
If there was anything he could do to help Montero lay off sliders down and away, it would’ve already happened. All the christians in the world praying together couldn’t get Jesús to hit his body weight, right now.
Only Jack Zduriencik fucks with the Jesus.
I think it’s time to start pointing fingers at Seattle’s coaches for ruining the bats of some very good prospects (Montero, Smoak and Ackley most recently).
i don’t think you mean to say “ruin”. to ruin something implies that it was once good–where once the player was turning in productive ABs…now, no longer.
while projectable due to pedigree, ackley never had what an impassionate observer might call “above average” results in the minors. ditto smoak. they haven’t been “ruined”–they’ve just not reached whatever people thought was their potential.
the one that comes closest to fitting that description is montero, and I wonder: how much does *our* perception change absent his first 20 games in 2011 (where nearly 1/2 of his ABs came against September LHP) and the NYY prospect hype machine (hi joba!)? maybe not that much, but it’s worth wondering…
Yeah, Joba was entirely a creation of the NY hype machine!! It’s not like he had 2 plus pitches and a third on the way back in 2007 and 2008.
And it’s not like his shoulder injury in 2008 had any effect on his pitching, even though Cashman has said as much.
No, it can’t have been any of that. Joba isn’t just a promising young pitcher whose career was irrevocably altered by a shoulder injury when he was 22.
It was all lies propagated by that damnable New York Hype Machine!!!
You convinced me… I’ll never trust the damn New York Hype Machine again!
Also, Ackley was above average in the Minors. He wasn’t a world beater or anything; but he was comfortably above average.
So Ackley wasn’t ruined by the Mariners because his numbers in the minors were poor. I’m curious what team you think Ackley was drafted by and played in the minors for. Perhaps you’re under the impression that he was traded to the Mariners the day before his Major League debut? Also, Justin Smoak’s minor league OPS by season while part of the Rangers organization: .873, .853, 1.010. Smoak certainly struggled in his first Major League chance with the Rangers, but for you to say his minor league numbers were not “above average” is crazy.
Oh yeah? Well, it could be worse. You could have put all your eggs in the JP Arencibia basket. He’s a bad game caller, bad defensively, a bad receiver, bad offensively (he’s walked twice this season), and everyone else has been cleared out to make room for him. Ugh.
Well, enough of that. I don’t know what Edgar Martinez is doing at present, but if he’s available the M’s should sign him as a scout, roving coach, or whatever, and assign him to Jesus Montero. The greatest DH in M’s (AL?) history ought to have some wisdom, techniques, etc., to impart to young Montero.
Arencibia has been much better than Montero both offensively and defensively over the past 2 years.
He didn’t have far to go.
Do you really believe JPA is ‘much’ better? Imo, JPA may be slightly better than Montero, but he’s 4 years older and he’s backed up by Henry Blanco, Josh Thole, and little else in the organization. In three trades since last July (HOU, MIA, NYM), the Jays have hitched their wagon to JPA.
What we’re talking about here is two C who really shouldn’t be catching at the ML level. SEA took advantage of their opportunity to send Montero down. JPA is ensconced. Why? His honest-to-goodness ML-level power. Similar to Doumit and Buck, there’s little else to commend him.
My guess? A cross and some nails.
Too soon, good sir. TOO SOON.
Anyone remember when Jesus Montero v. Willin Rosario was a thing? Yeah, me too.
Anyone else remember when Austin Romine was going to outplay them both? Yeah, me too. Then, he got his chance . . . .
“Anyone else remember when Austin Romine was going to outplay them both?”
No. And neither does anyone else, because that’s just made-up baloney on your part.
Are you thinking of Gary Sanchez? Romine has always been tabbed as a possibly above-average defensive catcher with doubles power and maybe a ceiling of average offense. It’s possible that someone said the Yankees may have preferred this package behind the plate to Montero’s awful defense and “plus” bat, but no one ever said Romine was going to be any sort of offensive stud.
His future…?
Much like his present. He can’t field at any position and thoughts of him at 1b are only for those who enjoy schadenfreude. Not only is it that Montero can’t run, he is really a bad baserunner, even if he had speed. Unless he hits with power and learns to layoff pitches out of the strikezone (fat chance)… he’s a janitor. I was a janitor in college. I got my degree debt free so it’s not like he doesn’t have upside. And cleaning the same urinals night after night does instill a certain work ethic.
Yeah, I can’t imagine Jesus Montero ever learning to hit for power. I mean, it’s not like he was one of the best power hitters in the IL as a 20 year old!
In all seriousness, though, he just needs to get the hell out of that toxic organization.
I’m curious if Montero’s failures could be heaped on the Mariners’ ability to coach him. Willin Rosario was an unspeakably horrible catcher last season for Colorado, but in a year’s time he’s really turned it around without losing any thump in his bat. Meanwhile, Seattle has made questionable acquisitions and signings in the offseason and continues to play Justin Smoak and Brendan Ryan without any changes in their offensive profiles. By comparison, the Giants, a hilariously inept team at developing offensive players from scratch, have managed to get out above average production from no-bat players like Brandon Belt and Brandon Crawford.
Montero is being scapegoated as the high-profile acquisition for the Mariners’ organization being utterly incompetent from top to bottom. A team that isn’t rebuilding, and is quietly affirming they’re contending, but is in a knife fight with Houston and Miami for fielding the worst team in baseball. And unlike those two teams, there is no hope for a significant improvement in the near future.
Seattle is not a place where good prospects go to die. It’s a place where prospects die after the Mariners sterile them.
That’s terribly inaccurate, until the current 6 game losing streak, they played almost .500 ball against most of the teams who are favorites to make the playoffs. That’s with their best power hitter playing through a broken pinky, their two other starting outfielders missing 3 weeks or more of the season, and various other injuries since spring training to all of their starting rotation, who isn’t rookies. Felix had been nursing his elbow before signing the contract. Iwakuma was dealing with blisters. Harang has had his back discomfort. Saunders agoraphobia when playing on the road. Add in Pryor being injured and the Mariners having to try 20 different pitchers. They’ve done a damn good job of weathering the storm.
Tell me about how the Yankees have done without $70MM worth of infielders and I’ll point out how their remaining payroll still doubles the Mariners opening day payroll. Apples and oranges. When you adjust for the scheduling nightmare they were dealing with, having to play 30 games in the first 31 days of the season, against every team when they were at their hotest. This team is due for some good luck and 70% of their June Schedule is against crappy teams, so they might just surprise some people yet, with a healthy roster and some timely promotions to Franklin and Zunino.
I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not. The M’s lost two series against Houston and only managed to consistently beat a very bad, very injured Blue Jays team. Now that the other teams are recovering from their early season slumps it’s clear every braindead move Zduriencik did has backfired.
Sauders is a below average pitcher who had 15 minutes of fame in the 2012 Wild Card game. Zduriencik seems completely incapable of evaluating talent beyond hype and accomplishment and brought him in based on that start alone, ignoring how ho-hum he was with Arizona the previous year. Harang was more of the same, an unwanted pitcher in Los Angeles who is similarly unwanted in Seattle.
Morse was an awful trade, his productivity was entirely dependent on maintaining a high batting average while he hits for power because his defense and aversion to walks are going to hurt the team. And if we didn’t learn anything from Beltre and Figgins, even good players get their skills sucked out when playing in Seattle. The pinky injury? Morse and injuries, who would have guessed?
Your comment about the Yankees is ironic and painful. The Yankees acquired scrap players and are now leading their division: castoffs with names like Youkilis, Hafner and Wells. Players the M’s could have just as easily acquired. Sure, dismiss the M’s inadequacies as a consequence of payroll, a big payroll allows teams to make more mistakes. Well, the Yankees didn’t make any mistakes, and the Mariners made nothing but. Payroll be damned, the organization can’t evaluate talent, and needs a good flush to cleanse out the toxic environment.
Jesus H. Christ. First, “sterile” is not a verb — nor have I ever seen anyone even attempt to use it as a verb. Freud?
The Giants are “hilariously inept” at developing hitters? You might want to check the career wOBA of Posey, Sandoval and Belt.
Belt’s .331 career wOBA is exciting to you? He’s a true 1B with a worse bat than Jon Jay.
FYI — Your “unspeakably horrible” catcher threw out 32% of baserunners last year at age 23. How he turned around that crashing and burning career no on will ever know. Must be the coaching.
And now I don’t know why I bothered replying to you above, since you seem to be seriously arguing that Wilin Rosario wasn’t an unspeakably horrible catcher last year.
I dont think this is a case of scapegoating. Montero doesn’t belong in the majors, right now. By the time he gets back, Wedge will probably be gone. This is what’s best for his career prospects.
The next Paul Konerko. Check out Konerko’s early history as a Dodgers prospect turned Reds bust.
After a certain point you have to start looking at the parent club, Montero hit in the minors, he hit very well.
The Mariners have been consistently rated one of the worst offenses in baseball for years. This is despite the fact they have gotten some very talented prospects with a history of demolishing minor league competition. Ackley, Smoak, Montero were among the highest rated prospects at some point, logic dictates they would be at least serviceable but none of them are that. Hell, fact is they all regressed into players with no semblance of discipline, swinging at everything and being beyond bad. The players definitely share some of the blame, but I’m also looking at that teams hitting coaches, because they obviously suck. When is the last time the Mariners produced a hitter that actually hasn’t sucked…..Arod? I
If Montero’s baserunning and speed are such issues, why don’t the M’s just get him a running coach to see if his running mechanics can be improved. Sprinters have coaches after all, fundamentals can be taught.
I’m actually surprised teams don’t teach this in the low minors (well, I never read of it occurring…). Seems like a cheap way to pick up extra runs at the MLB level.
Montero _did_ work with a running coach all offseason. He remains amongst the worst runners in organized baseball, if not _the_ worst. Yeah, it’s been tried . . . .
Who’s the catcher that came between only the 3rd 30/50 season in MLB history?
Jesus Montero.
The guy will never catch again, yet he threw out Mike Trout in the last game of the season to clinch Trout’s 30/49 season and perhaps the MVP award (doubtful though).
Brutal.
Jesus Montero will very likely catch again over the course of his career. A few games here and there. Some of it emergency catcher stuff; others just as a way to get his bat in the line up for a manager somewhere. Seriously, he’s bad, but so are other behemoths playing out of position. Montero will never be primarily a catcher again though. I don’t expect him to be a number two catcher although that may in fact happen for a year or two at his career peak if, when, and as his bat comes around. Doumit right now is worse than Jesus. The real fail, though, was to try and make Montero a full time catcher; that was just hubris on the part of certain sub-geniuses here in the Mariners org, and the attempt has burned all involved.