Will Rays Move? No, Just “More Years of Posturing”
It won’t be my decision, or solely my decision. But eventually, major-league baseball is going to vaporize this team. It could go on nine, 10, 12 more years. But between now and then, it’s going to vaporize this team. Maybe a check gets written locally, maybe someone writes me a check (to buy the team). But it’s going to get vaporized.
—Stuart Sternberg, principal owner of the Tampa Bay Rays
Almost immediately after the Rays were defeated by the Rangers in the American League Division Series, owner Stu Sternberg immediately dropped a bomb: the team might not be long for Tampa Bay. This certainly wasn’t the first time that Sternberg (or others) have noted that Tampa Bay’s conspicuously poor attendance hasn’t been much improved by the team’s winning ways, or that poor attendance could make it hard for the team’s payroll to compete with other AL East teams. Tropicana Field is horribly positioned, right next to the Gulf of Mexico and absurdly far from much of the population in the area. Just 19 percent of the more than three million who live in the market are actually located within 30 minutes’ drive of the stadium. A new, better-positioned stadium could substantially improve attendance, if only the Rays didn’t have a use agreement in place through 2027 with Tropicana Field.
But these complaints are chronic, and we’ve heard them for years. So it was striking that, a few minutes after the end of Game Four, the owner basically said that the team would have to move if the current situation didn’t change. Is the team really going to move?
Absolutely not, says Jonah Keri, the author of a book about the Rays (The Extra 2%) and a fan of the only team to move in the last four decades, the Montreal Expos. “It’s largely a power play,” says Keri. “There’s always going to be a weakest market, and it happens that this is one of them.” Sternberg has focused on the stadium issue because the empty seats are glaringly obvious, but many analysts have pointed out that Sternberg’s comments aren’t really about a new stadium. They’re about leverage.
That’s the message I got from Noah Pransky, an investigative reporter with WTSP in Tampa Bay, and he has comprehensively chronicled the stadium saga at his blog Shadow of the Stadium. Pransky and Keri both told me that, since the latest round of expansion, there are basically no new baseball markets that would be better for a baseball team than Tampa Bay already is. (UPDATE: As Jonah points out in the comments below, this is an oversimplification of what he said: there may well be enough population in the Tristate area or Southern California to support another team. But neither location is perfect, and MLB may be loath to try to get the teams already there to sign on to another team coming into their midst.)
And Pransky blogged about a Peter Gammons interview that put it even more colorfully. Numerous teams used the prospect of moving to St. Petersburg as leverage to get their cities to build them new ballparks. Once a team was located in St. Pete, that leverage vanished. “You need to be able to blackmail people,” Gammons explained, and you do that by having another attractive option waiting in the wings. But now, Tampa Bay has its own team, so, “There’s no place that you can say, ‘I’m moving there.'”
So Sternberg’s leverage may be hurt by baseball’s overexpansion, while the Tampa-St. Petersburg area has been disproportionately hurt by the economic downturn. Even as fans have sympathy for the team’s desire for a new stadium — not many people are diehard defenders of the Trop — their appetite for huge public spending on a new stadium is notably diminished. “Almost every police and fire station in Florida has had to make major cuts,” Pransky told me. “Almost every school district. So it’s very hard, no matter how much they love baseball, to see spending on baseball over other needs.”
After a decade of losing under previous owner Vince Naimoli, with terrible TV ratings and terrible attendance in a poorly-located stadium, the Rays were a laughingstock of baseball — and that’s when savvy Wall Streeter Stu Sternberg bought the team for a bargain. (Stuart Sternberg declined to comment for this article.) Despite his complaints, he has notably increased the value of the team, and its television ratings. But because of a television contract signed during the bad old days, the team hasn’t gotten a chance to realize much profit from its bigger television audience. As the St. Petersburg Times reported in 2010, under the terms of a TV contract signed in 2008 that runs through 2016, Fox gets most of the profits: “Fox, which carries games all over the state on its FSN and Sun Sports channels, pays the Rays an annual fee, then collects the bulk of advertising revenue, as well as payments from cable companies that want to carry the games.”
On television, unlike with the stadium, the Rays have a huge audience, but they aren’t profiting from it due to a bad television deal, signed before the team became a league champion and perennial playoff contender. In 2010, the Rays had the fifth-highest local television ratings in the majors. (And, in this year’s ALDS, Tampa Bay got a higher television rating than the Rangers, last year’s AL champion.) The Rays’ overall ratings in the 2011 regular season dropped by a substantial percentage this year, prompting Maury Brown recently to write that Tampa Bay doesn’t “deserve the Rays.”
But that doesn’t have to be the case. I spoke to Vince Gennaro, an expert in the business of baseball, and he was very careful to parse Sternberg’s complaint: “I didn’t hear him say that the market is untenable, I heard him say that the situation is untenable.” Tampa Bay is certainly one of the 30 best markets in the United States to have a baseball team. However, Gennaro told me that he didn’t see any way to solve the Rays’ financial woes without a new stadium. Referring to the Deadspin-leaked financials for the Rays, Gennaro said it was “stunning” that the Rays attendance hadn’t increased more between 2007 and 2008, when the team gained 31 games in the standings and won the American League. With anemic growth like that, “You’re going to need a major change in the primary revenue streams, and you come to your live date as your number one.”
So that’s why Sternberg is so set on getting a better stadium, though you can bet that he’s keeping a laser focus on getting a better television deal the next time around. But because he has no real leverage, with no other city or potential owner courting him, all he can do is try to get the local community on his side to pressure the city of St. Petersburg to release him from his obligation to Tropicana Field, or alternately hope that Major League Baseball will step in and demand that the city cut him a deal. “Sadly,” Steve Slowinski told me, “I think [St. Petersburg Mayor Bill] Foster has taken notes on what happened down in Miami, where local officials got bullied by Loria into giving him everything he wants.” That’s why Pransky predicts much more of the same in the foreseeable future: “We have many more years of posturing, below-average attendance, and veiled threats.”
Alex is a writer for The Hardball Times.
People in MN went to the metrodome when the Twins were good. Seriously, that stadium and the location is awful for Tampa. No increased attendance despite their success? I have no idea why you’d stay there if you had a chance to get out.
Are we sure that Florida is a good place for professional sports? None of them, in any sport, draw fans when they are just average. They only draw when successful, and even then, not always. Just because a market is big does not mean that it is a good sports’ market.
I could be wrong about that thing at the end, about attendance for pro teams, but it sure seems that way from up here in MN….
They’ve had pro baseball in that state for less than 20 years, so there just isn’t much of a tradition. As Jonah Keri pointed out to me, Detroit’s in pretty terrible shape economically, too, but fathers and sons and mothers and daughters have been attending Tigers games for more than a century. That’s something the Rays simply can’t draw on.
By “pro” I think you mean MLB. Florida’s had professional baseball since the early 20th century–maybe even earlier, I don’t know. There is a tradition, the issue is that it has a comparatively small cachet in the regional culture.
Thanks, Justin, and a very fair point. Florida has also been the home of spring training for a long long time. But yes, the tradition of major league baseball from April through September is very thin.
The problem with the Trop isn’t really the interior (which – as someone who has been to both places – is worlds better than the Metrodome). It’s the location, which is pretty much the opposite situation of the Metrodome’s great location.
The Detroit Metro region isn’t as bad off as the city of Detroit. There are still plenty of rich people right outside of the city limits and it is exceedingly easy to drive to the stadium.
Why do the Marlins and Loria deserve a new stadium and the Rays who are the model of how to run a baseball team do not ? Its a horrible stadium, tell me one person who thinks that its not (besides Oakland) the worst stadium in baseball ? Even Minnesota got one and that team was an inch away from contraction.
Honestly, it probably is the worst outside of Oakland, but that may be more of a testament to the quality of all the other stadiums in baseball than how much the Trop sucks. Personally, I’ve found it to be a comfortable place to sit for a couple hours with pretty good sightlines. In the 99% of the games where the lights don’t go out or the catwalks don’t screw something up, it’s not bad, ignoring the poor location. It looks like ass on TV, of course, but it’s actually not horrible in person.
Of course it’s irrelevant at this point, but Pro Player/whatever the hell they call it now in Miami was way worse. Good riddance to the second-from-the-last multi-purpose stadium in baseball! (I think…)
I actually don’t really mind the Trop. As far as physical plant goes, I like it better than Atlanta and US Cellular.
In response to JG, the Argonauts share the SkyDome/Rogers Centre with the Blue Jays.
I like the Trop. Its in a bad spot, but the stadium itself is fine. I haven’t been to every stadium so I can’t say which is the worst, but its not Tropicana Field. Joe Robbie/Pro Player whatever Stadium is much worse, but I realize they are getting a new one. Shea was also much worse. I personally think the Trop is a much better place to watch a game then Fenway. People love that place because of the history, but the reality is that that stadium is old, cramped and uncomfortable.
I’ve written a bit about this, and as a Tampa resident, if I can try to explain: there are a lot of sports in Florida. None of them draw particularly well. Besides 9 pro sports teams, there are a lot at least 4 quality college football teams, 13 (soon to be 14) minor league teams, and several arena league, lingerie league, and other pro teams. That is a lot for the 18 million people in the state to follow. And that’s not even mentioning the amusement parks and other forms of entertainment – to include even the beach. It’s not that they aren’t fans, or that they don’t care, it’s that people’s money can’t keep up with all their interests.
For example, I go to 20 Rays a year, 1 FSU football game, 1 FSU basketball game, and maybe a few Lightning games. I haven’t been to a Bucs game in years.
Is it too early to start Team-by-Team offseason plans, etc?
I don’t know if I can handle anymore AL East content.
I could even go for some detailed analysis on the Pirates or Astros, right about now.
Do we have any information about how big the yearly lease obligation is? I’d just like an idea of the relative size of that expense. I looked it up but couldn’t find anything that said specifically other than that the building has 80 mil of debt left on it that amortizes down about 12 mil/year so 7 years and that’ll be paid off…the article stated that a ballpark guess for a settlement might be around 100 million to get released – don’t know if MLB would be interested in pitching in on that or what, but Sternberg had to know what he was buying when he bought it – the stadium wasn’t good then and he’s in a contract. I’d have to imagine the team’s value has appreciated 100 million since they took it over.
Why is it that Canadian cities are never mentioned as potential locations. Being that I live an hour from Montreal, I firmly believe that a well positioned (aka downtown, Labatt Field anyone?) stadium in that city would allow seriously good attendance figures. Another Canadian city that could work would be Vancouver or perhaps Calgary.
There are only a million people in Calgary, we could most definitely not support a baseball team here. There is also this overall baseball distaste here, it seems to me. I haven’t really found anyone else who even likes it a little bit. Not to mention the weather…
They’ll never go back to Montreal, even if (as you say) it was because of the stadium. Vancouver is probably on the shortlist for next MLB city though.
Vancouver couldn’t even support its AAA team. It has a short-season Northwest League low-A team now. You think it’s going up to MLB level? Not a chance.
I wouldn’t judge a city’s viability by its ability to support a Triple-A team. Games in which the score doesn’t really matter are more popular in places far from a major league city, or in cities which identify with the parent club…Pawtucket, Round Rock, Sacramento etc.
If the Florida Marlins’ Triple-A affiliate was in New York City, I doubt many people would attend. There’s just a lot more to do than watch a team comprised of players who would rather lose in the big leagues than win in the minors.
Wouldn’t Seattle suffer if they do move it to Vancouver?
To nitpick, the Brooklyn Cyclones and Staten Island Yankees both play in NYC, and my impression was that they actually draw pretty well, especially considering that they’re located at the far ends of the city and that they share the town with their major league parents.
I’ve always thought Florida was bad for baseball. My thoughts, and I’m not as into baseball as everyone else here, would be to move Tampa to Brooklyn and leave them in the AL East, and move Florida/Miami to Oklahoma City. You could take that franchise and put them in the Central Division of the NL and move Pittsburgh to the East where they geographically belong. Oklahoma City is one of the fastest growing areas in the US. I’m sure the Yankees or Mets would try to balk at having another team in that area, but the NBA and NHL have proved that that particular market could support three teams. I am not a proponent of franchises moving, and in fact have always hated it. But I think a team in Brooklyn would be good for baseball. As far as OKC, well, hopefully Miami will support the Marlins in that new stadium, but I don’t see it happening personally. I Spenser a lot of time in Miami and baseball is just not popular among the residents.
The Marlins just got a new stadium. They are not going anywhere.
And I think every baseball fan outside of NYC will flip out if they get a third team. Maybe that was feasible 60-100 years ago when the population of the US was a lot more centered around that area, but there are other big cities now.
Just curious, do you live in Brooklyn?
Actually, I would imagine that NYC baseball fans would be the most upset. Yankee and Met fans aren’t going to be excited about more competition. It will put them at a disadvantage to the Sox and Phillies.
Also, the population of the NYC metro area is 19 million. Divided equally between three teams that is still a larger market than every other team in MLB except for the two LA teams (13/2).
David: None of what you said is wrong, but I would imagine there are significant diminishing returns in terms of population.
For example, Denver comfortably supports the Rockies. Atlanta’s MSA is twice the size of Denver’s, but it doesn’t mean it can support another team.
(Not sure if this is a great example, but whatever) Tokyo is a far more dominant city than NY is in terms of dwarfing the population of other major cities in the country (its metro area is 1/4 of Japan’s population) but has two of twelve teams in NPB.
I’d say LA has a better argument for a third team than New York does, considering how both of its teams are at least in the top third of attendance and it’s much more spread out geographically.
It could also be possible that the diminishing returns of population could actually be countered by adding another team. For example, after a fan base grows to certain point, additional fans may be unlikely to root for a team (“no one goes there anymore, its too busy”). In this case the diminishing returns is felt on a per team basis instead of within a metro region. Adding a new team could create some incentive for new baseball fans to become interested in the team. Obviously I have no data to back this up, and I’m just throwing the idea out there. Plus there are a discrete amount of people that would be interested in baseball that is a much smaller number than total population.
However it only takes 40,000 people to sell out a baseball game and media rights in NYC should be valuable. I would guess that Brooklyn would be able to support a team with a higher salary than Tampa Bay. I’d rather they stay in TB, because the building of a baseball stadium in Brooklyn would likely piss me off.
I still don’t see Brooklyn as being more viable than any of the other cities mentioned in this thread (Nashville, OKC, Indy, Charlotte, Vegas etc. – of these, Indy has drawn the biggest MiLB crowd this year). This is something that I don’t think we can settle without a ton of data.
There are some pretty solid qualitative arguments against it though. Adding a third NY team will (as you said) irritate Yankees and Mets supporters as well as thoroughly alienate the residents of all the other cities that got passed over to give Those Darned New York Elitists yet another baseball team that will still be second fiddle in town at best. All of these cities contribute to MLB’s bottom line and I doubt they would approve a relocation to Brooklyn.
“(Not sure if this is a great example, but whatever) Tokyo is a far more dominant city than NY is in terms of dwarfing the population of other major cities in the country (its metro area is 1/4 of Japan’s population) but has two of twelve teams in NPB.”
I’m not sure how the Tokyo metro area is defined. Two teams are in Tokyo, but Chiba, Yokohama, and Saitama are fairly close by.
If you start at Tokyo dome (Giants home) the distance to each team is:
Chiba Marines is 19 miles away, Yokohama Bay Stars are 22 miles away, Seibu Lions are 21 miles away, Tokyo Yakult Swallows are 3.5 miles away.
So they are close by US standards in my opinion.
Source is google maps
Japan is also smaller than California, so it makes sense that their teams would be closer when compared to MLB teams.
I would love a team in Brooklyn and I hate the Yankees. The reason is, it divides the market up even more and takes money away from the Yankees. Anyone who disagrees doesn’t understand economics. In fact, adding a team to Brooklyn would probably help buffer the Yankees more efficiently more than a salary cap.
Also NYC can’t really support three hockey teams. The Islanders are dead last in attendance and the Devils are bottom-third.
It’s a bit of a stretch to call the Devils and Islanders NYC teams. Not many New Yorkers are going to schlep out to Uniondale when they have a team that plays in midtown.
One thing I remember when Clay Bennett was suing to leave Seattle was the argument that an NBA team would work in Oklahoma City because it would not have to compete with another major league team in the city. There’s no way in hell that city can support 41 NBA games and 81 MLB games. “Fastest growing” doesn’t mean “big enough to support a major league team.” It’s a smaller TV market than Grand Rapids. http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2008/09/10/nielsen-local-television-market-universe-estimates/5037/
Oops, my bad, only two NZbA franchises in the NY metropolitan area.
anyone else notice that when remington doesn’t write about nonexistent gender problems his articles are a lot better?
Well played irony, sir. I believe your subtle jabs at sexists in baseball will fly over the heads of many!
More like you’re saying, “Remington’s posts are better because I like that he wrote about something I care about.”
I get that this is a stats-based website, but the well is going to run dry (and sometimes has) if you keep centering every single post around statistics. I like what Remington writes about because it provides a new perspective and raises different issues that stats won’t bring up. Finally, there is a gender problem in baseball front offices. You can’t deny that.
Spoken like a true privileged individual.
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
Didn’t the mayor of Nashville say that the city was considering buying the rays? IMO a team would do well there. The closest MLB teams would be Cincinatti which is over 5 hours away. Baseball is also quite popular already there with the Nashville sounds and Vanderbilt University drawing big crowds
I hadn’t heard of that, but Nashville was the first thing that popped into my mind when I thought of potential new baseball cities.
What are the property values like there? I think alot of the consideration is the value of the land the stadium is built on.
No better markets than TB? That seems impossible. Not sure how Keri can back that up.
Looking at the number, there really are a lot of people in TB, but there still seem to be some other options. Jersey? Vegas? Indianapolis? Charlotte?
I think when you have an AWESOMELY watchable team like the Rays, and you don’t even sell out a playoff game, there’s a pretty good sign it’s not just stadium problems you’re up against – people just don’t care.
(just saw the post above…) Nashville! Awesome city. They effing love the Blues, I’m sure they’d support the Rays like crazy. That’s a really great call.
It’s the Sounds. The Blues should be the Memphis team, but they just had to make it a vanity tag for the Cards…
Indianapolis? Nashville? Monterrey? NYC tri-state area? All better than Tampa.
Except I never said that.
SoCal or tri-state NY/NJ/CT would almost certainly be better.
I apologize if I mischaracterized what Jonah told me over the phone. I have updated the article to reflect his comment. The basic point, as I heard from a number of sources, is that there just are no perfect alternatives to Tampa Bay.
Fair enough!
I’m still confused as to why Vegas isn’t a great place to put a ballclub. It seems like the only reason why they haven’t done it already is due to worries over gambling or organized crime influence, but I’d like to think that MLB is strong enough now to nip issues like that in the bud.
There’s that, and also, Vegas has been absolutely hosed by the economic downturn.
EUREKA!
Tampa fans, you can thank me later for this amazing idea.
They buy a 10 or 15 double decker buses, and turn them in to party buses and decorate them with TB shit. You can probably fit, what 80-100 people into one of those? They can show highlights/replays/player interviews/etc on the TVs, and it would be a really fun pregame atmosphere. Plus, people can get wasted at the game and not have to drive home. I mean, that has got to be a decent factor of why they have such shitty attendance, right? No public transpo?
If I lived in TB and could hop this bus for free, or for a couple bucks, (knowing I could sneak a few brewskies on) and not need to worry about driving home… I would be 10000% more likely to go a game.
Or buy the Lions’ Booty Bus. One memory of Tampa was all the strip club billboards.
Telo wrote: They buy a 10 or 15 double decker buses, and turn them in to party buses and decorate them with TB shit. You can probably fit, what 80-100 people into one of those?
Do the math: even if this worked, it would increase attendance by only 1,000 to 1,500 per game. THEN: Buying 10-15 busses, the cost of running them, cost of employees, etc. Not enough to really make a difference, and filled with financial risk.
I think this strategy worked for San Diego Comic Con
There actually is a bus service that runs from Tampa to St. Pete just for the games. Not a party bus, but it costs $10 there and back. Definitely worth the price.
Put the Red Sox out of their misery and put TB there.
Solved, duh.
I’ll trade you the Red Sox players, manager (TBNL), and GM (TBNL) for the Rays players/manager/GM. Butttt we get to keep our owner, stadium and jerseys…
Seems like a fair deal
Wow, I almost read a Remington article but noticed the author’s name just in time. Whew!
I’ll criticize Remington when he deserves it (which is often), but his last few articles have, in fact, been quite good.
So MLB is more than ready to step in and extort money from the over-extended, possibly even bankrupt municipalities but would never think to step in and force FOX to renegotiate their sweetheart deal which was consummated out of desperation by a previous owner under far different circumstances than exist today? If I’m Tampa/St Pete I say “go to Vegas. Compete with that. Obviously nobody here cares about you. See if you can do better. We’ll put our money into schools, police and firemen. Thanks for being here the last few years. Call us if it doesn’t work out and we’ll fuck you over for a change.”
I don’t like it anymore than you, but the TV contract was signed – I’m not sure MLB can do much about it. Maybe this is part of the reason why they are fighting the Dodger TV contract so hard. Really, I think MLB needs to have a more uniform league wide TV deal. It would give them incentives to force owners to put competitive teams on the field and it would eliminate the bad TV deals like Tampa’s and the one McCourt wants.
The TV contract wasn’t signed by the previous owner – Sternberg took over in 2006.
What the prior admin did bring is much of the org talent now in Tampa that the current regime gets all the credit for. Price and Longo are the 2 biggest names there, and were drafted with Friedmann’s first 2 first round picks. Cobb looks good from the Longo (4th round,’06) draft, and Jennings (10th round in ’06) and Moore (8th, ’07) are 2 very good later round finds. But giving them credit for genius on the last 2 is a stretch – obviously even they didn’t exactly see how these 2 would develop. Luck does sometimes play a role in drafting.
The bulk of the players now in Tampa came from prior org drafts (Shields, Niemann, Davis, and Hellickson, McGee, Brignac, Jaso, Upton), and trades that have panned out well (Gomes, Howell, Ramos, Zobrist, Rodriguez, Shoppach, Fuld and Joyce, plus as depth Lobaton, Chirinos, Guyer, H. J. Lee, Torres, and Archer). I give Friedmann full marks for a series of good trades, most driven almost as much by salary reduction as development – I’m just not so sure their drafting has been as effective as they’re given credit for.
Of course with all the early picks in ’11, that could change going forward.
Some remarkably fortunate health among their pitchers (and team in general) over the last few seasons hasn’t hurt either.
We don’t know as much about player health as we’d like to, but good health may be a matter of design as well as luck. It’s not hard to imagine, given how strong their organization is in other respects, that the Tampa Bay Rays medical staff is also better than average at keeping players healthy.
Yes, clearly Naimoli and Lamar deserve the credit. After 10 years of overseeing the worst-run franchise in the history of sports, they were clearly THIS CLOSE to putting it all together, and obviously would have finally done so if not for the unfortunate timing of the sale of their team. Anybody can see that.
I long for Vince Naimoli and Chuck Lamar to return and reinstate their brilliant fan-friendliness and incomparable strategic acumen. Oh, how I long for the good ol’ days…
Uhm…why can’t Sternberg simply build a stadium somewhere else? Why do they have to wait for the city to do it? I can understand why you’d WANT the city to do so, but why can’t Sternberg? I’m sure there’s plenty of ways to leverage things so he wouldn’t be personally on the hook if the venture failed. And if he really is convinced his team is DOOMED where they are, seems almost like a win-win situation. Either it all works out and he’s better off, or things crash and burn and he has to walk away from the stadium and team.
Because of the use agreement. The team is locked in to use Tropicana Field till 2027.
I think it’s because the team is contractually obligated to play in Tropicana Field. Sternberg needs the city/state to void the contract so they can play in a different ballpark.
So it’s, I signed a contract that I don’t like… wah!
Pay them off or shut up.
What about Monterrey?
The part that would scare me if I were a Ray fan is the potential for Sternberg to sell the team. I can’t imagine a better owner in MLB.
I don’t see Sternberg selling the team at least until he can see what kind of tv deal the team can get. With this team/stadium/area, I think patience will help. I mean the Yankees have spring training in St. Pete, they’ve been in Florida way longer than the Rays have.
I really think at some point they should move the Yankees out of St Pete and have the Rays play there for spring training or have no team there.
Yankees are in Tampa, not St. Pete. If you’re not familiar with the area, the Phillies, Blue Jays, and Pirates all hold spring training roughly as close to St. Pete as the Yankees do (with the Orioles not far away).
Really, this is the problem with the Tampa Bay area, I think. The metropolitan area is far more spread out than most of the other major league markets, meaning that no matter where the stadium is located, it’s going to be a considerable drive for a large portion of the market.
Also, add the attendance for the Clearwater, Dunedin, Bradenton, and Tampa minor league teams to the Rays avg attendance and it goes up 5K a night. Not great, but a decent start.
It’s not like the FSL attendance automatically converts to MLB attendance – the ticket price difference is enormous.
nyyfaninlaaland makes a good point. I can get seats a dozen rows up from the infield for $10 or less at a AA game — $10 won’t even cover the online ticket fee (let alone the actual ticket) at a Red Sox game.
Ticket prices for FSL games are very close to Rays games. 300 level at the Trop costs 9-20 dollars depending on the opponent (minus parking). Tickets to FSL games in the surrounding Tampa Bay area are $6 w/ free parking. There is a correlation. Concessions are relatively close as well, although minor league teams are more likely to put on dollar beer night.
I’ve always thought that MLB should use shared revenue to help teams build new stadiums. More attendance for the Rays means more money for the league in general. Then again, this is the MLB where teams negotiate broadcast rights to the networks. In the NFL, the league does it. Which is why more people care about more NFL teams and you only see the Yankees/Sox/Phillies on ESPN. Hate Bud Selig’s piss poor management.
“Then again, this is the MLB where teams negotiate broadcast rights to the networks. In the NFL, the league does it.”
Uh…no.
Okay, I guess my professor who teaches a sports and entertainment economics class was wrong. The networks negotiate, at least under the old agreement, with the league. In the MLB, it’s team by team. So in the MLB, the teams are competing for each slot, in the NFL, the networks are competing for each team.
Teams negotiate local broadcast rights, the league the national deals with Fox, ESPN, TBS.
In the NFL there are no local broadcast rights.
NBA and NHL have local broadcast deals – it’s a matter of the number of games played by each sport.
The business structure of the NFL is the outlier.
There is a market that’s better out there. For starters there’s about 500 some miles between Atlanta and Washington, about 350 miles between Atlanta and Cincy, Well over 700 miles from Atlanta to Houston. You have relatively large Metro Areas like New Orleans, Charlotte, Nashville, Oklahoma City, Portland, as well as somewhere like say the Inland Empire Metro area in California or places that can likely support another team like the Philly, New England or New York Metro area.
I know it would be tough launching a team in those areas cause all the Franchises except the Mets are very old, but the Nats proved to be moderately successful moving into a tough territory with they moving into Orioles and Braves country. Now granted it was Post-TBS era which made it easier, but still have to compete with the Orioles. if the NHL can sustain the Flyers, Devils, Rangers, and Islanders (not to mention the Sabers in Upstate NY) I can’t imagine baseball having that much of an issue. It won’t be easy but given that the Newark area already has a NHL stadium and an MLS stadium, I bet they wouldn’t mind a baseball stadium. Or find a spot along the NJ Transit line to build a stadium, wouldn’t be that hard. Creates a place people could drive to, and to take the public transit to. Buffalo could support a baseball team (in a dome) or bring major league baseball back to Brooklyn.
I mean I guess my point is that there are places they can go if they want to. I don’t expect them to, but opening 2 teams down in Florida wasn’t a good idea.
I don’t see the state of NJ kicking in any money for a stadium, although Christie is a proponent of state money going to the Revel in AC and to the Meadowlands Xanadu project, so who knows?
New Jersey is an interesting possibility. The Gold Coast area would be something like the 25th most populous city in the country if it were incorporated. A stadium either at the Meadowlands or in Newark would be near a number of Mass-transit lines, plus the turnpike, the parkway, and I-80. The problem is, as much sense as Newark makes geographically, no one wants to go into the city. Meadowlands is in a nicer area, but it’s the antithesis of “downtown.” Maybe something along the waterfront in Jersey City or Hoboken, where you’d have easy transit access from NYC and nicer urban environment, but then again it’d be less convenient by car. Of course a traffic-filled car ride is par for the course here anyway
Here’s the thing: just about all the markets you mentioned have a smaller population than the Tampa – St. Pete area.
So what? Market size is just a variable. Some minimum level is probably necessary for success and some gigantic level is probably almost guaranteed success. Anything in between is going to depend on plenty of other factors. Several of those cities proposed have managed to do what TB hasn’t despite being smaller – run a financially successful pro sports enterprise.
NHL doesn’t have to do anything for the Sabres. They sell out nightly. Buffalo has some of the most passionate fans out of anywhere I’ve been, win or lose. Sabres finally have an owner that cares more about winning than making a buck.
Perhaps age demographics in the Florida markets play a role. The modern baseball stadium environment is sometimes louder than most seniors would be happy with.
If you are having trouble selling out a playoff home game after a historic comeback by a young exciting team, it’s got to be more than the 45 minute commute that is holding people back. I also don’t buy the lack of baseball tradition. Tampa may not be the same as Detroit or Chicago or Cincinnati, but it has at least much of a historical connection with major league baseball as Toronto had in 1985-89. We had a park that was probably worse than the Trop, yet we drew almost 2.5 million in 1985.
Yay! Reporting! Well done.
I don’t understand the (lack of) logic in this article. Because the Rays are the weakest market, they shouldn’t move closer to Tampa?
What? One does not follow from the other. At all.
Maybe I didn’t make it clear enough, but no.
The Rays play in a weak market, but their revenue has been suppressed due to a variety of factors. One of those is that Tropicana Field has a very bad location, far from the vast majority of their fans. One is that they’re locked into a bad TV deal. And one is that the Tampa Bay area has been hit really, really hard by the economic downturn, which means that people there generally have less disposable income.
Moving the stadium addresses the first piece. (Addresses it partially; they can’t alter the physical sprawl of the Tampa-St. Pete area, but they can pick a location that’s easier for more people to get to.) Continuing to win and waiting out the TV deal, which expires in 2016, will allow them to address the second. There’s nothing they can do about the third, but there is no city that is actively courting them to provide a better environment for the third.
So… that’s why the stadium is the only thing they’re really banging the drum about.
I see, I gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.
You mention the TV deal was signed in 2008, but Sternberg has been principal owner since before the 2006 season. Shouldn’t he be somewhat to blame for that crappy TV deal?
Yes.
Seems out of character for such a savvy businessman. My point being, he brought some of this on himself by not maximizing his TV revenues. I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume the contract was renewed prior to the start of the 2008 season. Regardless, it seems like a short-sighted deal and some was left on the table. After all, the Rangers just did a $3B TV deal. I know they’ve historically had more success than the Rays pre-08, but still think Sternberg could have gotten more out of Fox.
My recollection is that the deal had a nice chunk of upfront cash that helped the Rays finance an uptick in player salary for a couple of seasons. Or that the owner could pocket.
It is at least possible that an argument could be made that Sternberg’s main goal in owning the Rays was to mostly maintain profitability (depending on whose numbers you like, management’s or Forbes’), enjoy capital appreciation, then sell at the peak. He is a Wall Streeter after all. Not saying that’s the case, but the argument is makeable.
That seems to have been the likely reason that Liberty Media bought the Braves. There are major tax incentives for new team buyers, that last for the first five years of ownership. At this point, it’s unclear when or whether Liberty will unload the team, but at the time that appeared to be a major consideration in their decision to purchase.
my vote is for the Minot Rays
This is just more posturing by rich people that want public handouts. They signed the contract! The stadium cost 200 million in initial tax payer dollars. The rays signed a deal. Even if the stadium has only 7 or so years left of debt on it, as guessed by D_I, then that still does not satisfy the contract or probably the huge amount of interest on the original loan. A good example is the new Marlins stadium. With interest factored in, the cost could reach as much as 2.4 Billion. There is no way there is only 100 mill left. Stadiums are pitched as investments to taxpayers. There is supposed to be some kind of positive growth because of them. If the Rays were able to walk away from this contract, then the taxpayers would be left with a huge burden, even greater than what they already have. The gull of these guys to try to blackmail cities into buying them new stadiums. “Hey guys you already built a stadium that you owe tons on, we left you out in the cold, now build us a new stadium!” I live in the Tampa area. the Trop sucks no question about that, but that doesn’t mean they get to weasel out of their contract. The rays’ value has gone form 175 to 330 million dollars since sternberg took over. He has profited form this team regardless of the attendance. This guy has a net worth in the range of 800 million dollars. The Giants built their stadium using private investors. How about Stu gets some of his billionaire friends to help out.
It is kind of sad that after many years of limited options around the stadium, commerce has finally picked up such that there are many places to get a beer or a burger or anything else to satisfy your thirst or hunger. Additionally, they have added some residential buildings across the street that have to owe some percentage of their occupancy to the Trop. The area around the stadium has improved drastically in 13 short years, but all will fall apart once the team moves.
And to be fair here, Sternberg didn’t sign the use agreement.
Sandy Kaz above will know better than me, but I thought the city built the stadium without a team in place on spec (and perhaps some MLB encouragement).
I might lean toward the “rich guy” argument normally, but there’s blame to go around on this one. Sternberg certainly knew what he was getting into though.
The problem is getting out.
The bigger question is whether cyhange / a new stadium will make a difference, or is Tampa simply not a very good baseball market?
He not only knew what he was getting into, he got a cheap price on the team because of the poor situation.
Crazy idea: what about the Rangers moving to downtown Ft. Worth when it’s time to put the Ballpark in Arlington out to pasture (now wrapping up its 18th season) and a team moving to downtown Dallas? Fans from the eastern and northern portions of the Metroplex have long complained about the stadium location in Arlington, and there is some merit to that since the most rapid growth in the region has been to the north of Dallas, some areas of which are probably a solid 45+ minute drive to Arlington.
Splitting the DFW area into two markets would cement the long-held perception that the Rangers are Tarrant County’s team anyway (in other words, Ft. Worth and Arlington) and give Dallas a team that is much easier to get to for fans in downtown Dallas, Plano, etc. Dividing the population of the Metroplex in two (6.4m as of 2010) gives two markets roughly the size of Minneapolis/St. Paul or San Diego, and larger than St. Louis, Denver, Baltimore, Cleveland, Cincy, and yes, Tampa. The rivalry could play up the natural rivalry that already exists between Dallas and Ft. Worth and would be pretty intense, IMO.
A couple of reasons MLB might want the Rays in New York City:
1) a more valuable network TV contract with another team in a large media market — this means higher postseason ratings and higher ratings among rich people.
2) Tampa-St Pete could then attract more spring training teams to cut down the distances between Florida spring training sites. It would be a spring training destination for fans the way Phoenix has become, and maybe stem the flow of teams to Arizona.
The problem with baseball in Tampa is the population. We have a large number of transplants here (myself included) that are fans of other baseball teams with long standing tradition. I moved here in 1998 when the Devil Rays started playing. I was 15 years old and up to that point had been a fan of St. Louis (the only team my family could hear on the radio in back woods Mississippi). I instantly fell in love with the Devil Rays, in spite of their pitiful play and outlook. The point is, it took 10 years to put a good team on the field and during those 10 years I am sure there were very few transplant Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Tigers, etc fans that were swayed to leave their teams to become Rays fans over night.
We didn’t sell out Game 3 of the ALDS because it was on a Monday at 5pm. It is pretty difficult to leave a job, get across a bridge, drive to St. Pete, park, etc when you work in Tampa. Game 4 was at 2pm, which is definitely a non-starter for working folks in Tampa. I know that the drive is about the only thing that is keeping me from going to more games than I do. When I lived in DC, we went to Baltimore and Washington games regularly after work (even if only for a couple of innings). If the Rays moved to either of the two downtown Tampa locations they’ve proposed, or even the Fairgrounds option, I could see myself going to 3-4 times the games I go to now… and I could see the same for other folks in the Tampa area.
I live in NYC, so…
It’d be nice to have another option to the Mets and Yankees (My dad was a Giants fan until they moved to SF), but only if they operated in the same way they do now (scouting, player development, not throwing money at expensive free agents) 🙂 But if they became a large-market team, I’m sure the philosophy would change and they’d become just like the Yankees / Mets / Red Sox, etc. I like following a perennial but efficient underdog.
Really the best thing would be for the team to stay in the Sun Coast area and get a better-located stadium. It wouldn’t feel good pilfering a team from bereaved fans. Bad karma.
The Tampa Bays Rays are definitely NOT locked into their Tropicana Field lease until 2027. Sports leases aren’t exactly airtight and the Rays have options, if no new stadium is on the table. The terms of the lease will begin to favor the Rays over the next several years, meaning the organization will have the ability to buy out the lease. Even sooner than that, the club can declare bankruptcy, and obtain a ruling to void the lease entirely. In fact, the City of St. Petersburg is concerned enough about the bankruptcy issue, they have retain the services of a law firm which specializes in this area.
As someone who lived in the Tampa Bay area during the early years of the Rays existence, the horrible attendance is very troubling. Even with a less than ideal location and a bad stadium, the lack of support for a winning franchise is shocking. When the Rays were drawing flies and fielding a bad team, the location and quality of the stadium were rarely discussed, it was always assumed the entire market would respond as soon as the team simply became competitive. And you can’t blame the economy, because other MLB and sports teams are seeing a significant increase in attendance. It was unbelievable to see other cities(out of playoff contention) outdrawing the Rays during Tampa’s final home series versus the Yankees.
Someone mentioned earlier about the lack of tradition, and that’s a great point.
With numerous spring training teams, and northern transplants in the same area
it was gong to take even longer for a new franchise to gain traction and establish any kind of tradition. Unfortunately, the Rays don’t have time on their side. The lack of revenues will inevitably begin to affect the on-field product, and we can’t forget, it took a massive collapse for the Rays to even get the wildcard this season.
Make no mistake, the situation in Tampa is very tenuous, and the sense of urgency should be extremely high. Stu Sternberg has making public comments about the lack of support since the Rays miracle year of 2008. He’s given a ten year timetable without alluding to contraction before. And contraction is off the table, relocation isn’t. There are a number of cities which would be interested in the Rays, and we can’t judge the readiness of those cities right now to be the new home of the Rays. If there isn’t any significant progress on a new stadium soon, you better believe Sternberg will begin contacting other cities, and the ball will begin moving.
Bottom line, this is a very dire situation, and both the level of support in attendance, and new stadium must increase dramatically for the Rays to stay in the Tampa Bay area long term.
Since I have been critical in the past of articles that don’t properly cover this issue, I just wanted to say that this is very well said. Thanks for taking the time to properly publicize and frame this issue, Mr. Remington.
The only relocation options that make financial sense would be to make the Rays the third team in the NY metro area or greater LA, or maybe the second team in Philly. But that assumes one of those markets will lure them by paying for a new stadium AND the existing teams there will waive territorial rights. In other words, absolutely no chance.
All other markets are weak like Tampa-St. Pete. There’s no good solution here. MLB grabbed the short term windfall of expansion fees during the 1994-95 strike, and now has to deal with one poor market (Phoenix), and one catastrophically bad one (Tampa).
This is why the next round of expansion is at least 20-30 years away.
“But that assumes one of those markets will lure them by paying for a new stadium AND the existing teams there will waive territorial rights. In other words, absolutely no chance.”
So there was no chance whatsoever that the Expos would move to Washington?
#1 Nashville, #2 Portland OR, #3 Carolinas, #4 Brooklyn
You left out the biggest mistake the team made, one that quite adequately explains all of their woes: removing “devil” from the name.
It’s not really surprising that a team that backed out of a contract with that guy would be looking for ways out of their stadium lease.
Teams don’t change their nicknames much any more, but it used to happen all the time: not just when teams changed cities, as the Expos became the Nationals, much as one incarnation of the Senators became the Twins and another incarnation of the Senators became the Rangers; but teams used to change their nicknames rather frequently till they found one that stuck. The Houston Colt ’45s became the Houston Astros, perhaps because of the negative associations with the gun (much as the Washington Bullets elected to become the Washington Wizards).
But most of the franchises in baseball used to be known as something else. The Boston Red Sox used to be the Boston Americans; the Pittsburgh Pirates used to be the Pittsburgh Alleghenys; the New York Yankees used to be the New York Highlanders (and before that the Baltimore Orioles); the Atlanta Braves used to be known variously as the Bees, Rustlers, Doves, Beaneaters, Red Caps, and Red Stockings.
Old Nick may not have been happy to lose the free advertising, but if he was a student of baseball history he should have seen it coming: historically, teams have changed their names an awful lot within their first few decades of existence.