2014 Trade Value: #30 – #21

Welcome to the third part of this year’s Trade Value series. If you haven’t already, read the intro and get yourself acquainted with what question this is trying to answer, as well as an incomplete list of guys who missed the cut for one reason or another. You can see all the posts in the series here.

Due to popular demand — or maybe unpopular outrage? — this post and the next two will revert back to the prior year’s format of listing each player individually, with a blurb beneath them, rather than the article format that I experimented with in the first two posts. The mob has spoken.

A few quick notes on the columns listed for each player. After the normal biographical information, I’ve listed Projected WAR, which is essentially a combination of ZIPS and Steamer’s current rest-of-season forecasts extrapolated out to a full-season’s worth of playing time. For non-catcher position players, this is 600 plate appearances; catchers are extrapolated to 450 PAs. For pitchers, this is extrapolated to 200 innings. It is not their 2014 WAR, or their last calendar year WAR; it is a rough estimate of what we might expect them to do over a full-season, based on the information we have now.

For contract status, we have two pieces of information. “Controlled Through” includes all years before a player accumulates enough time to be eligible for free agency, all guaranteed years of a contract already signed, and any years covered by team options that could be exercised in the future. Player options and mutual options are not included, as the assumption is that players of this caliber will generally opt-out of their current contracts if given the chance.

The “Contract Dollars” column includes the base salaries of each player in the controlled years going forward, starting from 2015 — the 40% of 2014 salary remaining is not included in the calculation — including the value of team options, since we’re assuming that they will be picked up. In many cases, players have incentives for various accomplishments that affect the base salaries, but those are not accounted for here, simply because of the tedious work of calculating all those incentive prices and the fact that $100,000 for an All-Star appearance or $500,000 for an MVP-finish there aren’t going to change the overall calculations. This column is not an exact representation of their future earnings, but should be close enough for our purposes.

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For players who are under team control but not under guaranteed contract, I’ve listed out which arbitration years they still have remaining. There are a few players who have both guaranteed contracts and arbitration eligibility remaining, but we’ll deal with those cases in the article when a simple line in the chart doesn’t explain their situation perfectly.

Finally, “Last Year” notes where a player was ranked on this list last year, or if he wasn’t on the 2013 Trade Value series, then he is denoted as unranked. As you can imagine, there’s a lot more turnover at the end of the list than the beginning.

Now, for the middle section of the list.

Rank Name Age Team Position Projected WAR Controlled Through Contract Dollars Last Year
30 Gregory Polanco 22 PIT OF 1.5 2020 Pre-Arb – Arb3 Unranked

Polanco is the kind of player that every team covets; a useful contributor in the big leagues right now with enough upside to dream on what he could become in a few years. The mix of short-term and long-term value, combined with three and a half years of something close to league minimum salaries, make Polanco the kind of player that would generate trade interest from every single team in baseball.

It has to be noted, though, that Polanco’s short-term value was probably overstated in the backlash against the Pirates decision to leave him in the minors in order to avoid Super Two status. His power is still more projection than present day reality, and a 73% contact rate is not a great number for a guy who isn’t crushing the ball when he does make contact. History is littered with busted prospects who were supposed to hit for power and never did, and so while Polanco’s overall promise is enticing, he does come with a substantial amount of risk.

Of course, Polanco was crushing the ball in Triple-A, and he’s young enough that even holding his own at the big league level is an accomplishment. With a few more years of development, he should turn into one of the game’s best outfielders. He’s just not quite there yet, which is why he’s hanging out in the same range as the other prospects on the list, even though he’s technically not a prospect anymore.

Rank Name Age Team Position Projected WAR Controlled Through Contract Dollars Last Year
29 Kris Bryant 22 CHC 3B 2.8 TBD Pre-Arb – Arb3 Unranked

Speaking of prospects that belong in the big leagues, meet Kris Bryant. While we don’t have official rest of season forecasts for Bryant on the site, since he’s not an active member of the Cubs depth chart, Dan Szymborski and Jared Cross were kind enough to run his updated forecast for me, and both systems think Bryant would be a quality big leaguer tomorrow. That probably shouldn’t be a surprise, given that Bryant is a polished college hitter whose 179 wRC+ in Triple-A is the lowest mark he’s posted at any stop on the minor league ladder. You can quibble with the strikeouts and wonder what his eventual position will be, but right-handed power like this doesn’t come around very often, and Bryant’s bat is probably ready for the big leagues right now.

For service time reasons, it makes sense for the Cubs to hold Bryant down until next May, at which point they would also control his 2021 season, so don’t expect Bryant in Chicago before then. But if he was on a team looking to maximize their win total in 2014, he’d probably already be in the big leagues, and the forecasts think he’d do just fine. Like Polanco, every team in baseball would bid on Bryant’s services, and the scarcity of power would likely drive the price up beyond reason.

Even if he tops out as Troy Glaus — a comparison I’ve heard more than once — Bryant has a lot of value, and there’s certainly room for a career beyond what Glaus did. Bryant might not be a big leaguer yet, but teams would pay a big league price to get him.

Rank Name Age Team Position Projected WAR Controlled Through Contract Dollars Last Year
28 Andrelton Simmons 24 ATL SS 3.8 2020 $56,000,000 Unranked

In some ways, 2014 looks to be a step backwards for Simmons, as his power numbers have declined and his defensive metrics have returned to the realm of actual human beings. But just as it wasn’t worth overreacting to last year’s second half performance — where he posted a 118 wRC+ and was one of the most valuable players in baseball — it’s also not worth overreacting to a half season where he’s been worth only” +1.8 WAR. Over the last calendar year, Simmons has been a +4.6 WAR player, and his profile is pretty well establised now; average-ish bat with elite defense.

And even as just a +15 defender at shortstop, instead of a +25 defender like he was rated last year, Simmons still projects as a nearly +4 WAR player going forward. Yes, teams will pay more for offense than defense, but they don’t ignore defense entirely, especially not at up-the-middle positions. And the $56 million remaining on the six years left of Simmons’ contract is a fraction of what he would make on the open market. The Braves were wise to lock him up through his prime years, and while he’ll probably always be a defensive specialist who won’t kill you at the plate, he’s still a highly valuable player.

Rank Name Age Team Position Projected WAR Controlled Through Contract Dollars Last Year
27 Jose Bautista 33 TOR OF 4.8 2016 $28,000,000 35

In the first section, we had Edwin Encarnacion. Last section, we had Carlos Gomez. This section’s two-cheap-years-of-a-star player is Jose Bautista, who has evolved to remain an elite hitter even as his power has begun to wane over the last few seasons. His breakout years were driven by ISOs over .300, but his current .210 mark is closer to his pre-breakout norms, and yet, he’s still running a 151 wRC+. As the league has shifted more and more towards strikeouts, Bautista has moved away from them. His K% by year, since the breakout: 17%, 17%, 16%, 16%, 15%.

Even without 50 home run power anymore, Bautista remains a dominant offensive force, and he’s not a defensive liability either. As a +5 WAR player making $14 million per year, Bautista is near the top of the list in terms of short-term value. His age and the fact that he’s only got two years left on his deal limit the long-term upside, but there’s enough short-term value for it to not matter too much.

Rank Name Age Team Position Projected WAR Controlled Through Contract Dollars Last Year
26 Stephen Strasburg 25 WAS SP 4.4 2016 Arb2 – Arb3 14

Like Bautista, Gomez, and Encarnacion, Strasburg is also only under control for two more seasons after this one. And one could reasonably argue that both Bautista and Gomez are better players today than Strasburg is, as his results continue to not match his underlying peripherals. But as an arbitration eligible player, that isn’t necessarily the worst thing in the world for his trade value.

Strasburg’s 7-6 record and 3.46 ERA aren’t going to form a foundation for a monstrous raise in arbitration, even if the analytical numbers suggest that his results should improve going forward. Even with a strong finish, Strasburg is probably looking at no more than a $4 million raise this winter, which would put him line for about $20 million in salary before he hits free agency. And unlike many other front-line starters, there is no long-term exposure in case of an injury. Fewer years of team control are simply not the same deterrent to trade value for a pitcher as they are to a hitter.

And, of course, guys with this kind of stuff don’t hit the market too often. Strasburg continues to show that he has the makings of a legitimate #1 starter, even if he might not be that quite yet. As the Jeff Samardzija trade shows, teams are certainly willing to pay a premium for short-term pitching upgrades, and Strasburg is a good step ahead of Samardzija in both present and future value. The Nationals aren’t going to make him available, but if they ever choose to, they’ll get a monstrous return.

Rank Name Age Team Position Projected WAR Controlled Through Contract Dollars Last Year
25 Matt Harvey 25 NYM SP 3.8 2018 Pre-Arb – Arb3 7

This is the Jose Fernandez case, only with the timetable moved forward a year. The recovery rates on Tommy John surgery are encouraging enough to think that Harvey could easily be an elite hurler again next year, at which point he will still be making something close to the league minimum, and have three arbitration years remaining after that.

There is certainly a risk component here, and some teams would likely prefer safer bets like Bryant, or even maybe one of the healthy-but-not-quite-as-good hurlers from the previous section on the list. The appeal here might not be as broad, but the potential of acquiring four cheap years of a starter who was as good as anyone when healthy would be very appealing to teams looking for a cost-controlled ace. Value is a balance of risk and reward, and while Harvey certainly comes with plenty of risk, the reward is extraordinarily high as well.

Rank Name Age Team Position Projected WAR Controlled Through Contract Dollars Last Year
24 Freddie Freeman 24 ATL 1B 3.7 2021 $123,500,000 Unranked

Freeman’s 2013 breakout has carried right on over into 2014, and he has firmly cemented himself as one of the game’s best young hitters. Given that he’s coming up on 2,500 career plate appearances, it’s easy to remember that he’s still just 24 years old; he’s only a week older than George Springer, for instance. If he develops more power as he grows towards his physical peak, Freeman could easily turn into a legitimate MVP candidate.

Of course, unlike some other young stars, Freeman is no longer all that cheap. While the Braves were wise to lock him up while they still could, the price to keep him in Atlanta was $135 million over eight years, and 2014 was the cheapest of those years. Going forward, Freeman’s salary will average nearly $17 million per season. That’s still a bargain compared to what he produces on the field, of course, but he’s not running ridiculously deflated salaries that allow every team in baseball to fit him into their payroll. But for teams that have room for a $120 million in future commitments, Freeman is one of the safest bets in the game, and given his age, he has plenty of upside remaining.

Rank Name Age Team Position Projected WAR Controlled Through Contract Dollars Last Year
23 Xander Bogaerts 21 BOS SS 2.0 2019 Pre-Arb – Arb3 29

Speaking of upside, Bogaerts is the highest ranked player on this year’s list that isn’t already a star. In fact, to date, Bogaerts has been close to replacement level, and his extended slump of late has even created questions about whether or not he should head back to Triple-A for a little more polish. However, the most relevant number here is age; Bogaerts is still only 21, and plenty of superstars were ineffective big leaguers at this same stage in their career. It is way too early to be jumping off the Xander Bogaerts bandwagon just yet.

Like with Polanco, the primary variable here is the power development. Without the ability to drive the ball, the rest of the package is more interesting than valuable, but the power should come, and Bogaerts could take a big leap forward when it does. While he’s likely going to be a guy who always profiles better at third base because of his height, he’s shown that he can play shortstop at least in the near term, and there are few shortstops in baseball with his offensive upside.

He’s not there yet, but the upside is just too high to ignore. Give it time. Bogaerts will likely justify the hype and then some.

Rank Name Age Team Position Projected WAR Controlled Through Contract Dollars Last Year
22 Yadier Molina 31 STL C 4.5 2017 $43,000,000 11

Molina was a tricky guy to rank this year, because as an aging catcher, he’s a short-term value play, but his 2014 value almost entirely disappeared when he hit the disabled list last week. A team trading for Yadier Molina right wouldn’t be that different from a team trading for Matt Harvey or Kris Bryant right now, and both offer significantly more long-term upside.

But Molina is so good that I simply can’t see teams passing up the chance to acquire him, even with his 2014 injury factored in. There are still plenty of parts of catcher defense that we’re not capturing in the current WAR calculations, and Molina seems to excel at almost all of them; his overall value is likely higher than even the +4.5 WAR estimate suggests. He is legitimately one of the game’s very best players.

Of course, he’ll be 32 next year, and the three remaining years on his contract cover seasons where catchers are typically not that productive. There is real risk here, but Molina would likely be just as coveted as the similarly-aging Jose Bautista, only he’s under control for an extra year as well. It would be a niche market, given his lack of 2014 value and long-term value to a rebuilding club, but for teams looking for a catching upgrade over the next few years, Molina would be manna from heaven.

Rank Name Age Team Position Projected WAR Controlled Through Contract Dollars Last Year
21 Buster Posey 27 SF C 4.9 2022 $165,500,000 6

Posey is an interesting case, because as I noted in the recap of last year’s list, Posey has been a pretty average player over the last calendar year. Sure, some of that is just a drop in BABIP that probably isn’t real, but there’s a decrease in power and a drop in walks that are a little more concerning, and we’re coming up on the point at which it isn’t that small of a sample anymore.

But the track record is still very strong, and Posey is still just 27, so even with a down performance of late, history suggests betting on a rebound. He probably hasn’t forgotten how to hit right as he enters his prime. However, a lot of Posey’s value is tied to being a great hitting catcher, and he’s not likely to stay behind the plate for the remainder of his contract. There’s a lot of present value here, and the contract is certainly reasonable, but he probably doesn’t have as much long-term value as other players his age given the likelihood of a move to first base at some point in the future.

But for now, Posey’s a catcher, and likely still one of the best in the game. There are plenty of teams that would love to have their main concern be whether or not Posey will go back to being the game’s best hitting catcher, or just settle in as a very good one.

And now, because I think it still serves a purpose, here’s the entire published list to date.

Rank Name Age Team Position Projected WAR Controlled Through Contract Dollars Last Year
50 Yan Gomes 26 CLE C 3.4 2021 $40,950,000 Unranked
49 Starling Marte 25 PIT OF 3.0 2021 $52,500,000 31
48 Kyle Seager 26 SEA 3B 3.4 2017 Arb1 – Arb3 Unranked
47 Alex Cobb 26 TB SP 3.1 2017 Arb1 – Arb3 Unranked
46 Edwin Encarnacion 31 TOR DH 3.7 2016 $20,000,000 45
45 Julio Teheran 23 ATL SP 2.3 2020 $41,600,000 Unranked
44 Chris Archer 25 TB SP 2.4 2021 $42,250,000 Unranked
43 Devin Mesoraco 26 CIN C 3.0 2017 Arb1 – Arb3 Unranked
42 Corey Kluber 28 CLE SP 3.8 2018 Pre-Arb – Arb3 Unranked
41 Michael Brantley 27 CLE OF 2.6 2018 $30,000,000 Unranked
40 David Wright 31 NYM 3B 4.1 2020 $107,000,000 21
39 Dustin Pedroia 30 BOS 2B 4.2 2021 $107,500,000 25
38 Byron Buxton 20 MIN OF 1.2 TBD Pre-Arb – Arb3 Unranked
37 Jose Quintana 25 CHW SP 3.3 2020 $40,650,000 Unranked
36 Billy Hamilton 23 CIN OF 2.7 2019 Pre-Arb – Arb3 Unranked
35 Matt Carpenter 28 STL 3B 3.9 2020 $66,000,000 Unranked
34 Jose Fernandez 21 MIA SP 4.8 2018 Pre-Arb – Arb3 17
33 Carlos Gomez 28 MIL OF 4.8 2016 $17,000,000 33
32 Yordano Ventura 23 KC SP 2.8 2019 Pre-Arb – Arb3 Unranked
31 Sonny Gray 24 OAK SP 3.0 2019 Pre-Arb – Arb3 Unranked
30 Gregory Polanco 22 PIT OF 1.5 2020 Pre-Arb – Arb3 Unranked
29 Kris Bryant 22 CHC 3B 2.8 TBD Pre-Arb – Arb3 Unranked
28 Andrelton Simmons 24 ATL SS 3.8 2020 $56,000,000 Unranked
27 Jose Bautista 33 TOR OF 4.8 2016 $28,000,000 35
26 Stephen Strasburg 25 WAS SP 4.4 2016 Arb2 – Arb3 14
25 Matt Harvey 25 NYM SP 3.8 2018 Pre-Arb – Arb3 7
24 Freddie Freeman 24 ATL 1B 3.7 2021 $123,500,000 Unranked
23 Xander Bogaerts 21 BOS SS 2.0 2019 Pre-Arb – Arb3 29
22 Yadier Molina 31 STL C 4.5 2017 $43,000,000 11
21 Buster Posey 27 SF C 4.9 2022 $165,500,000 6





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

157 Comments
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Mark
12 years ago

Thank you for changing it to this format :). Enjoyed the article.

Hmmm
12 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Can you please revise the format in the future to remove all of the text and replace each entry with a GIF of a representative highlight of said player proportionally sized vertically to the applicable dollar value of the contract and then horizontally to the length of the contract and then scatter-plot those GIFs based on WAR and age? All of your words and numbers together hurt my eyes and brains.

Baltar
12 years ago
Reply to  Mark

I, too.

ReuschelCakes
12 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Massive kudos to Dave for (a) trying to improve and (b) being flexible when the results were in question. I liked the other way. I probably slightly prefer this way. Doesn’t matter though – Dave’s the man both ways.

The guy in the next cell
12 years ago
Reply to  ReuschelCakes

I can say with confidence and agree, Dave is the man… both ways 🙂

Iron
12 years ago

Go back to the other format.

*ducks*

a duck
12 years ago
Reply to  Iron

I think this format fits the bill just fine.

Belloc
12 years ago
Reply to  a duck

But does the bill fit the duck? That is the question.

a mallard
12 years ago
Reply to  a duck

Only a quack would suggest re-reverting back to the old new format.

chris
12 years ago
Reply to  Iron

Agreed. I liked the other format as well.

Unreasonable guy
12 years ago
Reply to  Iron

I demand Dave write two versions, one with the new format and one with old, then we can read them both and have a heads up do or dye vote on which one he has to use going forward.

Jason B
12 years ago

Do or dye? You got it Jermaine!

Jason B
12 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Unless it’s a tie between the two formats, in which case we have a tie-dye.

Dayton Moore
12 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Can I trade you for Neifi Perez?

Drew
12 years ago

I think there’s a legitimate top 15 case to be made for Freddie Freeman. The contract is looking more and more like a discount by the day, and everything about his game is so great.

Anon21Member since 2018
12 years ago
Reply to  Drew

“everything about his game is so great.”

Well, not his position, defense, or baserunning. He’s basically “just” a great hitter. That’s very valuable, but the reason he’s not in the top 15 is that he compiles essentially all his value with what he does at the plate, whereas more complete players get an assist from other aspects of their game.

Mike
12 years ago
Reply to  Anon21

Remember, this is a trade value rankings chart, not a player value ranking chart. Freddie Freeman is probably going to be worth every penny that the Braves pay him, but that doesn’t change the fact that his long term contract makes him less valuable as a trade piece.

Anon21Member since 2018
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike

I’m not quite sure what you mean by “less valuable” here. His contract status is better than some players on this list and worse than others; for example, his contract status is better than Carlos Gomez’s, despite the fact that that Gomez is owed less money in total and on a per-year basis. His contract status is clearly worse than Paul Goldschmidt or Anthony Rizzo (but the fact that Freeman is a better hitter than Rizzo closes some of that gap).

Twm
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Better hitter than Rizzo? In what way? This seemed patently wrong to me, so I looked real quick, and this season they have been almost exactly the same hitters: as in, similar walk and strikeout rates, similar ISO, similar triple slash, similar wOBA, similar…

Anon21Member since 2018
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Better hitter than Rizzo in wRC+. I would have thought that was obvious. Freeman’s better this year, by a bit, and was better last year, by a ton. Seriously, what argument could you even advance to say Rizzo is as good as Freeman? You can say Freeman’s not much better. You can say you expect Rizzo to be better in the future (although as far as this year goes, Freeman is also projected as the better hitter going forward). But to say Freeman isn’t better right now is silly.

Twm
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike

So Freeman’s 147 wRC+ compared to Rizzo’s 142? Hardly seems obvious. They still seem like pretty much the same hitter, and yes, I mean currently, this season. I now assume you are a troll.

Anon21
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Is 147 not greater than 142 where you come from, friend? Honestly, I’d be on firmer ground accusing you of trolling coming in here with this nonsense about Rizzo being an equal hitter to Freeman when he’s worse this year, worse last year, and projected as worse going forward.

Mike
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike

With any statistical analysis, I believe it is standard practice to accept that the calculated number is generally within a +/-5 tolerance of true value. Given that the difference the two players value as hitters is well within that tolerance according to both wRC and wOBA it is fair to claim that Rizzo and Freeman have essentially been equals as hitters thus far this season. Rizzo has slightly better walk and K rates and more power, Freeman has the better average, both avoid making outs at about the same rate. They are both about the same age, but Freeman has the edge in Major League playing time. Freeman broke out last year and Rizzo looks like he is breaking out a year behind him. The two players could actually provide a fascinating point of comparison down the road as the tend to provide the same overall value at the plate but in slightly different ways.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike

I think the fact that Freeman has been at this level for 1.5 years, not .5 years, along with the slight edge this year, is justification enough to say that right now he is a better hitter. I think there is a tendency to not take SSS as seriously when it comes to highly touted prospects.

@outfieldgrass24
12 years ago
Reply to  Drew

You were supposed to comment on the format. Didn’t you read above?

Ben Revere
12 years ago

I still haven’t seen my name smh

Johan Santa
12 years ago
Reply to  Ben Revere

Considering you’ve hit infinity% more home runs than last year, I suspect your place is firmly entrenched within the top 10, good sir.

68FCMember since 2020
12 years ago
Reply to  Ben Revere

You were in the Billy Hamilton summary, as what Hamilton has passed.

Bruce Chen
12 years ago
Reply to  Ben Revere

It’s a good thing!
I bet i’m mentioned last!!!

Ruralman
12 years ago

Xander 23rd most valuable in league!? Over SEager!? BIAS!!!!

Afroman
12 years ago
Reply to  Ruralman

What, are you high or something?

Theo
12 years ago
Reply to  Ruralman

Yea I think this one is crazy. Xander isn’t having a very good season.

Anon21Member since 2018
12 years ago
Reply to  Theo

At 21. He’s not having a very good season in the major leagues… at 21.

MDLMember since 2021
12 years ago
Reply to  Anon21

Yeah but Mike Trout had a much better age-21 season. Bogaerts needs to get his act together.

Theo
12 years ago
Reply to  Anon21

Right, he’s currently a below average MLB player, appearing on a list of the most valuable MLB players

David
12 years ago
Reply to  Ruralman

Either you are joking about BIAS!!!! or you missed the part about
Dave is a co-founder of USSMariner.com

db
12 years ago
Reply to  David

I thought option 1 was pretty clear. Dave is always accused of Mariner (#6 Org) bias.

jerry60555
12 years ago

Why there ARENT any yankees player on the list,hah?

Johan Santa
12 years ago
Reply to  jerry60555

Well Jeter won’t be showing up until the top 10 thanks to his leadership and mystique.

Commenter MadLibs
12 years ago

Why did (player) get ranked so low? He has (stats) over the past (small sample size). I’ll admit I’m a fan of (player’s team), but I think I’m being objective here considering the player is only (age) and is signed for (dollar amount). I think we could easily get (Giancarlo Stanton) for him.

pinch
12 years ago

hahaha the Stanton-nonblank makes this perfect

tz
12 years ago
Reply to  pinch

This post alone would justify a regular MadLibs section in NotGraphs.

Justin Timberlake
12 years ago

#nailedit #puttingtheFANinfangraphs
LOLOLololol…ololololol…ol

Mcneildon
12 years ago

I have 1,000 monkeys working at 1,000 computers. Soon, they will have given you the most upvotes in the history of any internet known to man.

schlomsd
12 years ago

Are there still questions about some players ages? Or are they 100% sure on everyone’s birthday now? If there are still some questions did you factor that in for players like Polanco and Marte, or just ignore it?

Kirk
12 years ago
Reply to  schlomsd

You go with what information you have. You can’t ding someone for an officially listed age until it comes out that the player isn’t that age.

David
12 years ago

Polanco only has 127 major league at bats and has only been on the Pirates roster for 36 days. The cutoffs as I have always understood them are 130 AB and 45 days. Technically Polanco still is a prospect (though that will likely come to an end on Friday).

Anthony
12 years ago
Reply to  David

I was under the impression the cutoff is 130 PA, not AB..

Ruben Amaro
12 years ago
Reply to  Anthony

I don’t follow

David
12 years ago
Reply to  Anthony

From MLB’s Official info page: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/about_mlb/rules_regulations.jsp

Determining rookie status:
A player shall be considered a rookie unless, during a previous season or seasons, he has (a) exceeded 130 at-bats or 50 innings pitched in the Major Leagues; or (b) accumulated more than 45 days on the active roster of a Major League club or clubs during the period of 25-player limit (excluding time in the military service and time on the disabled list).

Looks like it is at bats.

jerry60555
12 years ago

Why Brett Gardner ARENT on the list?

Philip Christy
12 years ago
Reply to  jerry60555

This guy is a good example of most Yankee fans in my opinion.

Neckbeard
12 years ago
Reply to  Philip Christy

I thoroughly enjoy the smugness and superiority of advanced-stats guys toward less-knowledgable fans, in particular Yankee fans. You had two options: write a reasonable response and maybe help someone learn something (even if not OP), or take a crack.

Nicely done, fuckwit.

Steven
12 years ago
Reply to  Neckbeard

People don’t hate Yankee fans because they are “less knowledgeable;” they hate them because they root for the Evil Empire.

nilbog44
12 years ago
Reply to  Neckbeard

Awww… can the poor Yankee fan not take a joke?

Neckbeard
12 years ago
Reply to  Neckbeard

I’m a Twins fan. I hate assholes.

Neckbeard
12 years ago
Reply to  Neckbeard

@Steven: Every time a Yankee fan writes a well-written (typically self-deprecating these days, but still), sabermetrically-smart (or observant) response, it gets upvoted. Tell me it’s not about feeling smart and acting superior, especially toward people who don’t know what wRC+ is. The fact that it’s taking a shot at a Yankee fan is just convenient and upvote-whoring.

Nick in ATL
12 years ago
Reply to  Neckbeard

Enough of the self-loathing neckbeard.

schlomsd
12 years ago

Curious on why Bautista ranks higher than Gomez. Gomez is 5 years younger, is owed $11m less, and has been better over the past three seasons (although Bautista’s wRC+ is 139 compared to Gomez’s 125). Obviously they are only 6 slots apart but I doubt that many GM’s would prefer Bautista over Gomez unless they are significantly weighting Bautista’s seasons four and five years ago.

vivalajeter
12 years ago
Reply to  schlomsd

This was essentially the exact comment I was going to post. Gomez is younger, cheaper, and has been better this year. According to the chart, they’re both projected for 4.8 WAR. I just don’t see anything that would put Gomez over Bautista.

scatterbrian
12 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

Then it would seem that Molina is too high on this list. Most of his value is defense, which is not so unusually great that it makes up for his age and declining bat.

He’s pretty comparable to Gomes right now, who has youth and upside and a team-friendly contract. The remaining 3+ years of Molina is about $10M more than the remaining 7+ years of Gomes. I imagine most GMs value the latter more.

bookbook
12 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

Yeah, but old school guys have always been a step ahead of the Sabr crowd on catchers with great defense (witness Brad Ausmus’ long and illustrious career). Now that pitch framing has become the sabr thing of the moment, old school and stat school are in pretty close agreement about catcher valuation.

I wonder how much more valuable Rick Dempsey might seem when looked at via today’s methods…

TKDC
12 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

The “crazy” factor has to hurt Gomez a bit, too.

Roll Tide
12 years ago

Anyone else think a Polanco for Bryant swap would make sense for both teams?

Anthony
12 years ago
Reply to  Roll Tide

Pittsburgh has a third baseman, Chicago has outfielders. I think a swap centered around Taillon and Baez, if Pittsburgh believes Baez can stick at SS, would make more sense.

Roll Tide
12 years ago
Reply to  Anthony

I was thinking Bryant or Alvarez at first.

Roll Tide
12 years ago
Reply to  Anthony

But you’re right, the Cubs do already have outfielders.

indyralphMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  Anthony

I’m not qualified to be a GM. But if I were one who picked up Travis Wood, Hammel and Arrieta in the last year for next to nothing, I would probably just continue to find similar guys instead of trading my top MI prospect for your lesser pitching prospect.

Dead Serious
12 years ago
Reply to  Anthony

The Cubs have OF’s? I didn’t realize they had such a high opinion of the Bonifacio/Ruggiano/Coghlan trio. Or perhaps you were including Schierholtz/Lake and their combined -.8 WAR. In all seriousness, even with Almora and Soler, they are still one short.

vecnyj
12 years ago
Reply to  Roll Tide

Yeah, I thought so too. Chicago, especially after acquiring Addison Russell, have IF depth, while the Pirates have some good OF prospects currently blocked (Austin Meadows, Josh Bell).

And Pedro Alvarez will probably be traded, so 3B would be open. If the Pirates don’t want to trade Pedro, they could also move him to first as you said.

Andrew Friedman
12 years ago

I hope Price doesn’t show up in the next installment. He’s one of the top 5 trade values out there, top 10 is a no-brainer

rustydudeMember since 2021
12 years ago

Andrew, when you go to trade your boy, Price, you better hope the other GM’s don’t notice his #47 ranking on last year’s list.

Lutz
12 years ago

I wonder what other zero-service time prospects we’ll see on here.

There are several hitting prospects rated higher than him on the top-100 lists, and they can’t all fit in the top 20 of this list along with major leaguers.

Pale Hose
12 years ago
Reply to  Lutz

There won’t be any. Dave said Bogaerts is the highest ranked player that is not already a star.

Mike
12 years ago
Reply to  Lutz

If Buxton and Bryant have already shown up, probably none.

Lutz
12 years ago
Reply to  Lutz

But if the consensus of all prospect evaluators is that Buxton, Correa, Sano, Polanco, Russel, Lindor, Taveras are greater than or at worst roughly equal to Bryant…. then Dave would be pretty bold to put Bryant above them all.

aariediger
12 years ago
Reply to  Lutz

Well yeah, Buxton might be the best prospect in the game, but he certainly has more risk than Bryant, who has mashed everywhere he’s been (this cming from a Twins fan.) Less risk, higher floor, it’s the same reason hitters are preferred over pitchers that project to have the WAR.

aariediger
12 years ago
Reply to  Lutz

Well yeah, Buxton might be the best prospect, but he certainly has m risk than Bryant, who has mashed everywhere he’s been including AAA (and this is coming from a Twins fan.) Less risk, higher floor, it’s the same reason hitters are preferred over pitchers even when they project to have the same WAR.

Rainja182
12 years ago
Reply to  Lutz
rustydudeMember since 2021
12 years ago

Interesting, so Felix goes from #22 into the top 20, I presume? I guess his contract is looking more favorable and it probably doesn’t hurt that he’s having a career year.

And Chris Davis either dropped out of the rankings altogether from the #18 position, or is hanging by his fingernails in the top 20.

Jason B
12 years ago
Reply to  rustydude

re: Chris Davis. It’s the former, not the latter.

Pale Hose
12 years ago

Best guess on who is left (off the top of my head and not in order):
Trout
McCutchen
Stanton
Tulowitzki
Rendon
Rizzo
Machado
Sale
Hernandez
Abreu
Harper
Puig
Darvish
Perez
Lucroy
Bumgarner
Goldschmidt
Donaldson
Arenado
Yelich

Kris
12 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

Longoria…

Pale Hose
12 years ago
Reply to  Kris

Yeah, good call. Swap out Yelich.

indyralphMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

It’s not Arenado. Arenado hasn’t shown he can hit – 84 wRC+. I doubt Arenado is top 100, let alone top 20.

grant
12 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

Longo in for sure, Yelich out, probably Arenado out too, though can’t come up with a replacement offhand.

companion cube
12 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

Perhaps J. Upton

indyralphMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

This is overly simplistic, of course, but the inequality goes something like this:

Yan Gomes > Addison Russell > Jeff Samardzija > Martin Prado + Randall Delgado ~ Justin Upton

peterevang
12 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

“Martin Prado + Randall Delgado ~ Justin Upton”

Oh hey, Kevin Towers, sup.

rustydudeMember since 2021
12 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

You’re thinking Kershaw’s big contract prices him out of the top 20 altogether? I guess I see him slotting in before Arenado or Yelich.

Pale Hose
12 years ago
Reply to  rustydude

Dave adressed that in intro post. Kershsw has an option where he can elect free agency if traded, which makes him untradeable

Anon21Member since 2018
12 years ago
Reply to  rustydude

Dave already addressed that in the intro. Kershaw’s no-trade clause on steroids (the opt-out) is keeping him off the list entirely.

indyralphMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

Adam Wainwright?

mar
12 years ago
Reply to  indyralph

Yeah, I think swap out Arenado and Yelich from the original list, and swap in Longoria (still somewhere in the Top 10 in my mind) and Wainwright (back end of the Top 20, at least when he doesn’t feel the need to “groove” pitches.)

Pale Hose
12 years ago
Reply to  mar

I agree with this.

Matt
12 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

Dave SWORE no pitchers in the top 10. So Sale has to move down…

Naveen
12 years ago
Reply to  Matt

He said they are not in order.

Cubs017
12 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

Starlin Castro? 3+ WAR Shortstop owed $60M for 7 years.

Fabian
12 years ago
Reply to  Cubs017

Dave mentioned in the chat today that Castro is not on the list.

Dead Serious
12 years ago
Reply to  Cubs017

I’m sure the -14 career offensive runs created has something to do with it.

Dead Serious
12 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

Who is this Perez you speak of?

Los
12 years ago
Reply to  Dead Serious

Salvador

mikecws91
12 years ago

So Quintana is at 37, and Sale and Abreu haven’t even shown up yet. If only three players were enough for a championship. Looking at you, basketball.

Jim Price
12 years ago

Is there a worst trade value list? Would be fun too.

Brian Cashman
12 years ago
Reply to  Jim Price

It’s just “A-Rod” over and over again in flashing neon 72pt. font.

Voxx
12 years ago
Reply to  Brian Cashman

Pujols gets an honorable mention.

Rainja182
12 years ago
Reply to  Brian Cashman

Howard, Ryan.

Willow Smith
12 years ago

How can these rankings be real when trades aren’t real?

Matt
12 years ago

Anyone else shocked by Posey? 165 million left seems like it takes him out of the top 50, let alone top 21…

The Flaming FIPs
12 years ago
Reply to  Matt

Yes, especially given his downswing in performance dating back to last summer.

Dead Serious
12 years ago
Reply to  Matt

I know right? The 25 WAR he’s projected to have over the next 5 seasons is totally worthless. I mean, he’s 27 years old already, he should just retire.

Matt
12 years ago
Reply to  Dead Serious

I am dead serious when I say that you are a dick, sir.

Cubs017
12 years ago

Thank you for switching to this format. It had to be difficult to switch halfway through, but it is appreciated.

Esoteric
12 years ago

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SWITCHING BACK.

Seriously, Dave – it takes a big man to suck it up and “listen to the mob.” And you know what? This reversion to the old format *really is* so much better.

Thanks again.

szielinskiMember since 2026
12 years ago

History is littered with busted prospects who were supposed to hit for power and never did, and so while Polanco’s overall promise is enticing, he does come with a substantial amount of risk.

Very lazy thinking here. Buxton, like Polanco, comes “…with a substantial amount of risk.” Every prospect does.

History is littered with busted prospects who were supposed to hit for power and never did….

Then there are the hitters who were supposed to hit for power and, surprise, did hit for power.

Polanco started his ML career hitting for average and power. Then he slumped, while striking out a lot. He has 146 PA — a small sample size, and thus a viable platform for generating FUD.

ReuschelCakes
12 years ago
Reply to  szielinski

I am having trouble understanding the meaning of this post, but have narrowed its meaning to a few possibilities – please be helpful and choose, thanks:

a) you think Dave is lazy and needed to tell the internet
b) you think Dave doesn’t understand risk and needed to instruct him
c) you own Polanco on your fantasy team
d) you are a Pirates fan
e) you are practicing your post-formatting skills
f) you are trolling Josh Harrison in a very specific and nuanced way

szielinskiMember since 2026
12 years ago
Reply to  ReuschelCakes

Lazy thinking = the use of cliches deployed as substitutes for rational thought about the matter being discussed.

I find his points very annoying.

Prospects are very risky. That’s true, but also trivial. In fact, every player is risky. They may fail to perform as expected. This too is trivially true. But is Polanco riskier than any other top-shelf prospect? If one believes he is riskier, then state that and defend the belief. Make the claim concrete. Do not use it to diminish the perceived value of a prospect because, even if it successfully diminishes his perceived value, it tells us nothing useful about the player in question. Thus: Is Polanco riskier than Bryant who is rated above him? That seems doubtful given Bryant’s K-rates. Is he riskier than Bogarts or Harvey? I would not think so. But they are ranked above Polanco, and their expected value is based on projection, and thus risky by definition.

Some prospects fail to reach their real or perceived ceiling. Their power does not develop. Also a true claim; also trivial. Some players reach their real or perceived ceiling. This too is both true and trivial.

True and trivial. And vacuous.

As I stated, I think David engaged in lazy thinking, and stated that point. I would have passed over his statement without posting but for the fact that I am a Pirates fan. But my team fandom does not alter my argument in any way. It only motivated me to post it.

Tom
12 years ago
Reply to  szielinski

Bogaerts and Harvey both have more upside than Polanco.

Marcus A.
12 years ago
Reply to  szielinski

I suppose I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t understand what the big complaint is.

1) Dave had been writing these in article format and switched to blurbs for each player. Some short cuts are necessary and I don’t think the ones your pointing out are particularly egregious.

2) Bryant is one spot ahead of Polanco. He might just think that Bryant’s service clock having not started makes him more valuable. He didn’t have Bryant at 1 and Polanco at 50. This is really splitting hairs.

And clearly he thinks Polanco is less risky than most prospects. He rates him very highly on this list. I’m sure Dave could make this article take 50 days and do a post as long as the above for each player, but that would be ridiculous. Yes, there is more nuance to each and every player than what is listed above. There is risk associated with Polanco because we do not have a long track record of sustained success at the big league level. That’s why he’s “only” the 30th most valuable trade piece in baseball. That’s still huge praise. If you want to, in your head, bump him up a few spots, I’m sure nobody would quibble too much with that.

Maybe your team fandom doesn’t alter your argument, but I think it certainly has resulted in you picking a nit where it is entirely unnecessary.

bookbook
12 years ago
Reply to  szielinski

+But is Polanco riskier than any other top-shelf prospect?+

The answer to your question is “No.”– but it’s basically a strawman argument. Polanco’s a prospect. Every prospect is risky. To stereotype: massively riskier than any already established top-shelf major league player. The folks ahead of him on this list are almost all already major league stars, not prospects. Having watched the trials of top-ten prospects Smoak/Montero and especially Dustin Ackley (who had a great 1/2 season when he first hit the majors), you can’t realistically expect Dave–or anyone–to rank your prospect in front of all the established stars.

szielinskiMember since 2026
12 years ago
Reply to  szielinski

Marcus A & BookBook:

I did not criticize Dave Cameron’s actual placement of Polanco on his list. I criticized one part of his overall description of Polanco for reasons I have already given.

Tom:

I find lists such as these interesting but misleading. They are misleading because identifying the true value of this or that prospect such that we can realistically compare any two prospects and place them in a clear a > b relation. This seems like splitting hairs. It’s more productive to place prospects into categories which can be ranked and which contain prospects of like quality. To my mind, Polanco, Bogarts, Bryant and Harvey would be members of one group.

Rainja182
12 years ago
Reply to  szielinski

On behalf of Pirate fans across the world, please stop typing.

Johnnytwotimes
12 years ago

So Polanco and Bryant make the list but not Taveras? Based off what?

indyralphMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  Johnnytwotimes

Polanco and Bryant have recently crushed AAA pitching while Taveras is two years removed from crushing AA pitching and continually battling injuries.

Craig EdwardsMember
12 years ago
Reply to  indyralph

Yet Taveras is still younger than both. Not having Taveras somewhere on the list is a mistake to me. Even Springer was on the just missed list.

indyralphMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  Craig Edwards

Springer also completely crushed AAA this year and last. Polanco and Bryant are both like a half year older than Taveras. I’m a huge Cardinals fan, so I hope I’m wrong. But Taveras just hasn’t come close to hitting the way Polanco, Bryant or Springer have over the last calendar year.

Rainja182
12 years ago
Reply to  Craig Edwards

Being younger than someone doesn’t instantly make them more valuable.

That guy
12 years ago

Where’s Mike Trout already? This list is clearly biased against fish.

Jeremy
12 years ago
Reply to  That guy

He is #1

KK-Swizzle
12 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy

Yup. Even with the new contract. He’s that good

Rainja182
12 years ago
Reply to  That guy

Why didn’t Al Gore invent sarcasm font?

Isaac
12 years ago

there are a lot of players on this list from #21-50 who have less trade value than George Springer. Seriously.

Zen Madman
12 years ago

How does Juan OSVALDO! Lagares compare to Simmons? It seems like he’s in a similar place to where Simmons was last year. His WAR/600 is actually 4.7 compared to Simmons’ 4.25, over about half the sample size. He’s been of similar offensive value (not an embarrassment) while providing elite defensive value. If his next calendar year is of similar value, would he rank in the same area? Top 50 at least?

Eric M. Van
12 years ago

Dave’s comment about teams paying more for offense than defense suggests an interesting alternate list: greatest actual value (trade value in a rational market) relative to trade value.

I’ll nominate Christian Vazquez for the top 10.

Pato San
12 years ago

So Mookie Betts must be in the top 20…

Rainja182
12 years ago
Reply to  Pato San

… of Red Sox prospects.

Matthew TobinMember since 2025
12 years ago

I don’t know if you’ll see this Dave, but I have to ask about Tanaka. I know you probably were working on this pre-injury and I’m not sure if it has been updated. But 7 years/$155M the the opt-out is looking fairly reasonable at this point. While there is a limited sample size and regression will likely occur, I think about the money Scherzer and Lester will receive on the open market and despite both having a relatively checkered past and being significantly older, and I have to think: Prior to the injury, Tanaka had to have some significant trade value.

Not really a question on this: But where Jose Abreu ends up will be very interesting,especially when you consider the deal Chris Davis supposedly turned down a big extension and the premium that power is demanding in the current market.

Rainja182
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

$22 million a year for a pitcher is anti-trade value. Hell that’s only $2 million a year less than Mike Freaking Trout.

Ted Nelson
12 years ago
Reply to  Rainja182

Salary is only one half of what constitutes trade value. Obviously his injury complicates things, but previously he was well worth the $22 million and I would bet you he had an enormous amount of trade value at only 25 years old.

Los
12 years ago
Reply to  Ted Nelson

The problem is the opt out though. If he gets injured you have a 7 year liability. If he’s great you get 4 years at a slight discount.

Ted Nelson
11 years ago
Reply to  Ted Nelson

It’s a negative, but I still think he had plenty of trade value when healthy. The value is all relative to opportunity cost, and to get any SP of his caliber past arb years you would be dealing with a similar contract. I don’t know if he’s going to be on this list or not, but I think he had plenty more trade value than a lot of guys on the list, like Cobb or Pedroia, before injury.

Side note: I think Pedroia on this list is a major mistake. Pedroia is a month shy of 31 in the post-PED era, may already be in decline, has large career home/road splits as a RH playing his home games in Fenway, and is making 8 figures for 7 more years. That contract is only team friendly if he keeps producing, but given how hard players are aging in this era that is hardly a given. If this time next year Pedroia is among the 50 least valuable trade pieces I wouldn’t be at all surprised.

Matthew TobinMember since 2025
12 years ago

Also, Yordano Ventura is a big surprise to me. I think there are still serious concerns about his ability to stick as a starter long term. He has an elite fastball and a good curve and changeup.

But I’ll ask: How is that different than say Julio Teheran,without the top prospect track record? Would you seriously suggest any take would not take the additional risk/1 less year of Fernandez and take Ventura instead?

Bob Smizik
12 years ago

So the Pirates have all 3 starting OF’s in the top 50? SALE THE TEAM.

Jason B
12 years ago
Reply to  Bob Smizik

Chris Sale the team?

Trade the entire team for Chris Sale?

Ted Nelson
12 years ago

I, personally, would rather see this done in a more quantitative format. Using a simple model that projects expected value less expected cost. That is basically how I think a team should be calculating trade value.

I visit fangraphs and stay away from grantland specifically because I want more rigorous analytics and less unsubstantiated opinion.

Mike Green
12 years ago

Dave’s comment that teams value offence over defence reminds me of the old Hall of Fame vs. Hall of Merit discussions. Personally, I am not really interested whether some General Managers think that Brandon Moss is exceptionally valuable because he is a proven run producer or that some General Managers think that Noah Syndergaard is exceptionally valuable because he has the good face and an outstanding build in addition to a 100 mph fastball.

And as for the TJ rehab cases, I don’t agree with Dave at all. The record for hard-throwing starters is much more variable than Dave suggests. Jose Fernandez may come back and be as good as Stephen Strasburg, or he may never pitch as a starter again. It is true that some teams see the evidence the same way that Dave does.

Ted Nelson
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

I think you are misinterpreting and oversimplifying the offense/defense issue. There are legitimate reasons for offense to be valued more highly than defense: scarcity, variability, and overall impact on wins. I don’t think many, if any, GMs don’t understand positional value or that defense generally has value. I don’t think it has anything to do with Moss or face/build.

If there is such a compelling body of evidence that contradicts the mainstream consensus on TJS, it should be very easy to point to. Historical success after the procedure is a matter of public record. Of course Fernandez may succeed or he may fail. That’s not the question (and is another huge oversimplification). The question is what the odds of him succeeding and failing are, leading to a projected value going forward which can be compared with his expected cost going forward.

Mike Green
12 years ago
Reply to  Ted Nelson

Scarcity, variability and overall impact on wins have nothing to do with the valuing of defence vis a vis offence. There is definitely an important measurement issue for defence (which essentially results from sample size over time; by the time that you have a large enough sample for some players, there are important aging factors at work too) This may rightfully lead teams to place greater weight on measured offence vis a vis measured defence. My point wasn’t that there is not a difference, but that the reality should be more interesting to us than the perception.

What is precisely the consensus on TJS? That it has a 15% absolute failure rate (among major leaguers as a whole) and a variety of outcomes less serious than absolute failure? That it is no more serious than a root canal? If the former, I agree. If the latter, I disagree. If one restricts the sample to hard-throwing starting pitchers, the record is, I think, a little worse (this fits with the current scientific understanding that velocity and quantity are now known to be risk factors). In a case like Fernandez’, you have to be particularly concerned by his young age at first onset. The literature suggests that the absolute failure rate of TJS in high-schoolers is 26%, and for someone of Fernandez’ age, it is probably somewhere in the middle.

Ted Nelson
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

Yes, in fact, they have a lot to do with it. Good offensive players are scarcer than good defensive players at any given position, and if you don’t think scarcity is related to market price then you need to take an intro to econ class. A player’s defensive metrics tend to be far more variable overtime than offensive metrics, and if you don’t think variability has anything to do with value then you need to take an intro to finance class. Overall impact is a really obvious one: no intro class required. Strong offensive performance is just going to have more impact on wins than defensive because the difference between an average and good offensive player will result in more runs scored than the difference between an average and equally good defensive player will result in runs saved.

My point was that reality might be much closer to perception than you seem to believe.

Again, if you disagree with the consensus all you have to do is point to evidence. Instead of rambling on about the body literature, just provide a freaking link.

TRN
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

No reply where I wanted one, but this is for Ted Nelson who spends a good amount of time lecturing about which classes are required then follows that up with:

“the difference between an average and good offensive player will result in more runs scored than the difference between an average and equally good defensive player will result in runs saved.”

You need to take a 1st grade math again and focus on what the ‘=’ sign means.

TKDC
12 years ago

I actually thought Simmons was not going to make it after not being 31-50, but didn’t want to be one of *those* Braves fans by saying anything.

eastsider
12 years ago

I can’t get past this statement, “He is legitimately one of the game’s very best players” about Yadier. As a fan of his, I believe this to be true. I have for about 3.5 years now. And it seems if you can say that about a player for that long, then they have to be in a HOF conversation. Simply looking at his WAR numbers, he isn’t in. He will probably be lucky to get past Posada in career WAR and I think Posada is considered a fringe candidate at best. Could his reputation for managing pitchers and the running game count enough to get him over the top? Or is it simply that he’s going to be in the hall of very good and that’s that?

Sorry for hijacking the thread, this just interests me. Thanks.

Isaac
12 years ago
Reply to  eastsider

I kind of question whether most HOF voters are perusing career WAR when they cast their votes anway.

Ted Nelson
11 years ago
Reply to  eastsider

C defense is not really measured by WAR, so even if HoF voters are looking at WAR it should only matter so much. If he ends up around the same career WAR, he might have a better case than Jorge based on defensive factors such as P framing and probably fewer runners even trying to steal on him.

I’m not sure if Yadier is a HoF, though. Maybe his defense should get him in, but offensively he’s at league average for his career. Good for a C, just doesn’t scream HoF. It’s only been 3 seasons that he’s been well above average offensively.

Isaac
12 years ago

I also think we are rapidly approaching the point where the HOF is really not even relevant as a measure of historic greatness to anyone under 50. If Barry Bonds, A-Rod, and Manny aren’t in it, the three greatest hitters I’ve ever seen with my own eyes, what’s the point?

ezb24
11 years ago
Reply to  Isaac

the point is for old white dudes to remind the world that players didn’t do roids are better people than those who did. apparently.