2014 Trade Value: #30 – #21
Welcome to the third part of this year’s Trade Value series. If you haven’t already, read the intro and get yourself acquainted with what question this is trying to answer, as well as an incomplete list of guys who missed the cut for one reason or another. You can see all the posts in the series here.
Due to popular demand — or maybe unpopular outrage? — this post and the next two will revert back to the prior year’s format of listing each player individually, with a blurb beneath them, rather than the article format that I experimented with in the first two posts. The mob has spoken.
A few quick notes on the columns listed for each player. After the normal biographical information, I’ve listed Projected WAR, which is essentially a combination of ZIPS and Steamer’s current rest-of-season forecasts extrapolated out to a full-season’s worth of playing time. For non-catcher position players, this is 600 plate appearances; catchers are extrapolated to 450 PAs. For pitchers, this is extrapolated to 200 innings. It is not their 2014 WAR, or their last calendar year WAR; it is a rough estimate of what we might expect them to do over a full-season, based on the information we have now.
For contract status, we have two pieces of information. “Controlled Through” includes all years before a player accumulates enough time to be eligible for free agency, all guaranteed years of a contract already signed, and any years covered by team options that could be exercised in the future. Player options and mutual options are not included, as the assumption is that players of this caliber will generally opt-out of their current contracts if given the chance.
The “Contract Dollars” column includes the base salaries of each player in the controlled years going forward, starting from 2015 — the 40% of 2014 salary remaining is not included in the calculation — including the value of team options, since we’re assuming that they will be picked up. In many cases, players have incentives for various accomplishments that affect the base salaries, but those are not accounted for here, simply because of the tedious work of calculating all those incentive prices and the fact that $100,000 for an All-Star appearance or $500,000 for an MVP-finish there aren’t going to change the overall calculations. This column is not an exact representation of their future earnings, but should be close enough for our purposes.
For players who are under team control but not under guaranteed contract, I’ve listed out which arbitration years they still have remaining. There are a few players who have both guaranteed contracts and arbitration eligibility remaining, but we’ll deal with those cases in the article when a simple line in the chart doesn’t explain their situation perfectly.
Finally, “Last Year” notes where a player was ranked on this list last year, or if he wasn’t on the 2013 Trade Value series, then he is denoted as unranked. As you can imagine, there’s a lot more turnover at the end of the list than the beginning.
Now, for the middle section of the list.
| Rank | Name | Age | Team | Position | Projected WAR | Controlled Through | Contract Dollars | Last Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 30 | Gregory Polanco | 22 | PIT | OF | 1.5 | 2020 | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | Unranked |
Polanco is the kind of player that every team covets; a useful contributor in the big leagues right now with enough upside to dream on what he could become in a few years. The mix of short-term and long-term value, combined with three and a half years of something close to league minimum salaries, make Polanco the kind of player that would generate trade interest from every single team in baseball.
It has to be noted, though, that Polanco’s short-term value was probably overstated in the backlash against the Pirates decision to leave him in the minors in order to avoid Super Two status. His power is still more projection than present day reality, and a 73% contact rate is not a great number for a guy who isn’t crushing the ball when he does make contact. History is littered with busted prospects who were supposed to hit for power and never did, and so while Polanco’s overall promise is enticing, he does come with a substantial amount of risk.
Of course, Polanco was crushing the ball in Triple-A, and he’s young enough that even holding his own at the big league level is an accomplishment. With a few more years of development, he should turn into one of the game’s best outfielders. He’s just not quite there yet, which is why he’s hanging out in the same range as the other prospects on the list, even though he’s technically not a prospect anymore.
| Rank | Name | Age | Team | Position | Projected WAR | Controlled Through | Contract Dollars | Last Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 29 | Kris Bryant | 22 | CHC | 3B | 2.8 | TBD | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | Unranked |
Speaking of prospects that belong in the big leagues, meet Kris Bryant. While we don’t have official rest of season forecasts for Bryant on the site, since he’s not an active member of the Cubs depth chart, Dan Szymborski and Jared Cross were kind enough to run his updated forecast for me, and both systems think Bryant would be a quality big leaguer tomorrow. That probably shouldn’t be a surprise, given that Bryant is a polished college hitter whose 179 wRC+ in Triple-A is the lowest mark he’s posted at any stop on the minor league ladder. You can quibble with the strikeouts and wonder what his eventual position will be, but right-handed power like this doesn’t come around very often, and Bryant’s bat is probably ready for the big leagues right now.
For service time reasons, it makes sense for the Cubs to hold Bryant down until next May, at which point they would also control his 2021 season, so don’t expect Bryant in Chicago before then. But if he was on a team looking to maximize their win total in 2014, he’d probably already be in the big leagues, and the forecasts think he’d do just fine. Like Polanco, every team in baseball would bid on Bryant’s services, and the scarcity of power would likely drive the price up beyond reason.
Even if he tops out as Troy Glaus — a comparison I’ve heard more than once — Bryant has a lot of value, and there’s certainly room for a career beyond what Glaus did. Bryant might not be a big leaguer yet, but teams would pay a big league price to get him.
| Rank | Name | Age | Team | Position | Projected WAR | Controlled Through | Contract Dollars | Last Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 28 | Andrelton Simmons | 24 | ATL | SS | 3.8 | 2020 | $56,000,000 | Unranked |
In some ways, 2014 looks to be a step backwards for Simmons, as his power numbers have declined and his defensive metrics have returned to the realm of actual human beings. But just as it wasn’t worth overreacting to last year’s second half performance — where he posted a 118 wRC+ and was one of the most valuable players in baseball — it’s also not worth overreacting to a half season where he’s been worth only” +1.8 WAR. Over the last calendar year, Simmons has been a +4.6 WAR player, and his profile is pretty well establised now; average-ish bat with elite defense.
And even as just a +15 defender at shortstop, instead of a +25 defender like he was rated last year, Simmons still projects as a nearly +4 WAR player going forward. Yes, teams will pay more for offense than defense, but they don’t ignore defense entirely, especially not at up-the-middle positions. And the $56 million remaining on the six years left of Simmons’ contract is a fraction of what he would make on the open market. The Braves were wise to lock him up through his prime years, and while he’ll probably always be a defensive specialist who won’t kill you at the plate, he’s still a highly valuable player.
| Rank | Name | Age | Team | Position | Projected WAR | Controlled Through | Contract Dollars | Last Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 27 | Jose Bautista | 33 | TOR | OF | 4.8 | 2016 | $28,000,000 | 35 |
In the first section, we had Edwin Encarnacion. Last section, we had Carlos Gomez. This section’s two-cheap-years-of-a-star player is Jose Bautista, who has evolved to remain an elite hitter even as his power has begun to wane over the last few seasons. His breakout years were driven by ISOs over .300, but his current .210 mark is closer to his pre-breakout norms, and yet, he’s still running a 151 wRC+. As the league has shifted more and more towards strikeouts, Bautista has moved away from them. His K% by year, since the breakout: 17%, 17%, 16%, 16%, 15%.
Even without 50 home run power anymore, Bautista remains a dominant offensive force, and he’s not a defensive liability either. As a +5 WAR player making $14 million per year, Bautista is near the top of the list in terms of short-term value. His age and the fact that he’s only got two years left on his deal limit the long-term upside, but there’s enough short-term value for it to not matter too much.
| Rank | Name | Age | Team | Position | Projected WAR | Controlled Through | Contract Dollars | Last Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 26 | Stephen Strasburg | 25 | WAS | SP | 4.4 | 2016 | Arb2 – Arb3 | 14 |
Like Bautista, Gomez, and Encarnacion, Strasburg is also only under control for two more seasons after this one. And one could reasonably argue that both Bautista and Gomez are better players today than Strasburg is, as his results continue to not match his underlying peripherals. But as an arbitration eligible player, that isn’t necessarily the worst thing in the world for his trade value.
Strasburg’s 7-6 record and 3.46 ERA aren’t going to form a foundation for a monstrous raise in arbitration, even if the analytical numbers suggest that his results should improve going forward. Even with a strong finish, Strasburg is probably looking at no more than a $4 million raise this winter, which would put him line for about $20 million in salary before he hits free agency. And unlike many other front-line starters, there is no long-term exposure in case of an injury. Fewer years of team control are simply not the same deterrent to trade value for a pitcher as they are to a hitter.
And, of course, guys with this kind of stuff don’t hit the market too often. Strasburg continues to show that he has the makings of a legitimate #1 starter, even if he might not be that quite yet. As the Jeff Samardzija trade shows, teams are certainly willing to pay a premium for short-term pitching upgrades, and Strasburg is a good step ahead of Samardzija in both present and future value. The Nationals aren’t going to make him available, but if they ever choose to, they’ll get a monstrous return.
| Rank | Name | Age | Team | Position | Projected WAR | Controlled Through | Contract Dollars | Last Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 25 | Matt Harvey | 25 | NYM | SP | 3.8 | 2018 | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | 7 |
This is the Jose Fernandez case, only with the timetable moved forward a year. The recovery rates on Tommy John surgery are encouraging enough to think that Harvey could easily be an elite hurler again next year, at which point he will still be making something close to the league minimum, and have three arbitration years remaining after that.
There is certainly a risk component here, and some teams would likely prefer safer bets like Bryant, or even maybe one of the healthy-but-not-quite-as-good hurlers from the previous section on the list. The appeal here might not be as broad, but the potential of acquiring four cheap years of a starter who was as good as anyone when healthy would be very appealing to teams looking for a cost-controlled ace. Value is a balance of risk and reward, and while Harvey certainly comes with plenty of risk, the reward is extraordinarily high as well.
| Rank | Name | Age | Team | Position | Projected WAR | Controlled Through | Contract Dollars | Last Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 24 | Freddie Freeman | 24 | ATL | 1B | 3.7 | 2021 | $123,500,000 | Unranked |
Freeman’s 2013 breakout has carried right on over into 2014, and he has firmly cemented himself as one of the game’s best young hitters. Given that he’s coming up on 2,500 career plate appearances, it’s easy to remember that he’s still just 24 years old; he’s only a week older than George Springer, for instance. If he develops more power as he grows towards his physical peak, Freeman could easily turn into a legitimate MVP candidate.
Of course, unlike some other young stars, Freeman is no longer all that cheap. While the Braves were wise to lock him up while they still could, the price to keep him in Atlanta was $135 million over eight years, and 2014 was the cheapest of those years. Going forward, Freeman’s salary will average nearly $17 million per season. That’s still a bargain compared to what he produces on the field, of course, but he’s not running ridiculously deflated salaries that allow every team in baseball to fit him into their payroll. But for teams that have room for a $120 million in future commitments, Freeman is one of the safest bets in the game, and given his age, he has plenty of upside remaining.
| Rank | Name | Age | Team | Position | Projected WAR | Controlled Through | Contract Dollars | Last Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 23 | Xander Bogaerts | 21 | BOS | SS | 2.0 | 2019 | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | 29 |
Speaking of upside, Bogaerts is the highest ranked player on this year’s list that isn’t already a star. In fact, to date, Bogaerts has been close to replacement level, and his extended slump of late has even created questions about whether or not he should head back to Triple-A for a little more polish. However, the most relevant number here is age; Bogaerts is still only 21, and plenty of superstars were ineffective big leaguers at this same stage in their career. It is way too early to be jumping off the Xander Bogaerts bandwagon just yet.
Like with Polanco, the primary variable here is the power development. Without the ability to drive the ball, the rest of the package is more interesting than valuable, but the power should come, and Bogaerts could take a big leap forward when it does. While he’s likely going to be a guy who always profiles better at third base because of his height, he’s shown that he can play shortstop at least in the near term, and there are few shortstops in baseball with his offensive upside.
He’s not there yet, but the upside is just too high to ignore. Give it time. Bogaerts will likely justify the hype and then some.
| Rank | Name | Age | Team | Position | Projected WAR | Controlled Through | Contract Dollars | Last Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 22 | Yadier Molina | 31 | STL | C | 4.5 | 2017 | $43,000,000 | 11 |
Molina was a tricky guy to rank this year, because as an aging catcher, he’s a short-term value play, but his 2014 value almost entirely disappeared when he hit the disabled list last week. A team trading for Yadier Molina right wouldn’t be that different from a team trading for Matt Harvey or Kris Bryant right now, and both offer significantly more long-term upside.
But Molina is so good that I simply can’t see teams passing up the chance to acquire him, even with his 2014 injury factored in. There are still plenty of parts of catcher defense that we’re not capturing in the current WAR calculations, and Molina seems to excel at almost all of them; his overall value is likely higher than even the +4.5 WAR estimate suggests. He is legitimately one of the game’s very best players.
Of course, he’ll be 32 next year, and the three remaining years on his contract cover seasons where catchers are typically not that productive. There is real risk here, but Molina would likely be just as coveted as the similarly-aging Jose Bautista, only he’s under control for an extra year as well. It would be a niche market, given his lack of 2014 value and long-term value to a rebuilding club, but for teams looking for a catching upgrade over the next few years, Molina would be manna from heaven.
| Rank | Name | Age | Team | Position | Projected WAR | Controlled Through | Contract Dollars | Last Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 21 | Buster Posey | 27 | SF | C | 4.9 | 2022 | $165,500,000 | 6 |
Posey is an interesting case, because as I noted in the recap of last year’s list, Posey has been a pretty average player over the last calendar year. Sure, some of that is just a drop in BABIP that probably isn’t real, but there’s a decrease in power and a drop in walks that are a little more concerning, and we’re coming up on the point at which it isn’t that small of a sample anymore.
But the track record is still very strong, and Posey is still just 27, so even with a down performance of late, history suggests betting on a rebound. He probably hasn’t forgotten how to hit right as he enters his prime. However, a lot of Posey’s value is tied to being a great hitting catcher, and he’s not likely to stay behind the plate for the remainder of his contract. There’s a lot of present value here, and the contract is certainly reasonable, but he probably doesn’t have as much long-term value as other players his age given the likelihood of a move to first base at some point in the future.
But for now, Posey’s a catcher, and likely still one of the best in the game. There are plenty of teams that would love to have their main concern be whether or not Posey will go back to being the game’s best hitting catcher, or just settle in as a very good one.
And now, because I think it still serves a purpose, here’s the entire published list to date.
| Rank | Name | Age | Team | Position | Projected WAR | Controlled Through | Contract Dollars | Last Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 50 | Yan Gomes | 26 | CLE | C | 3.4 | 2021 | $40,950,000 | Unranked |
| 49 | Starling Marte | 25 | PIT | OF | 3.0 | 2021 | $52,500,000 | 31 |
| 48 | Kyle Seager | 26 | SEA | 3B | 3.4 | 2017 | Arb1 – Arb3 | Unranked |
| 47 | Alex Cobb | 26 | TB | SP | 3.1 | 2017 | Arb1 – Arb3 | Unranked |
| 46 | Edwin Encarnacion | 31 | TOR | DH | 3.7 | 2016 | $20,000,000 | 45 |
| 45 | Julio Teheran | 23 | ATL | SP | 2.3 | 2020 | $41,600,000 | Unranked |
| 44 | Chris Archer | 25 | TB | SP | 2.4 | 2021 | $42,250,000 | Unranked |
| 43 | Devin Mesoraco | 26 | CIN | C | 3.0 | 2017 | Arb1 – Arb3 | Unranked |
| 42 | Corey Kluber | 28 | CLE | SP | 3.8 | 2018 | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | Unranked |
| 41 | Michael Brantley | 27 | CLE | OF | 2.6 | 2018 | $30,000,000 | Unranked |
| 40 | David Wright | 31 | NYM | 3B | 4.1 | 2020 | $107,000,000 | 21 |
| 39 | Dustin Pedroia | 30 | BOS | 2B | 4.2 | 2021 | $107,500,000 | 25 |
| 38 | Byron Buxton | 20 | MIN | OF | 1.2 | TBD | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | Unranked |
| 37 | Jose Quintana | 25 | CHW | SP | 3.3 | 2020 | $40,650,000 | Unranked |
| 36 | Billy Hamilton | 23 | CIN | OF | 2.7 | 2019 | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | Unranked |
| 35 | Matt Carpenter | 28 | STL | 3B | 3.9 | 2020 | $66,000,000 | Unranked |
| 34 | Jose Fernandez | 21 | MIA | SP | 4.8 | 2018 | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | 17 |
| 33 | Carlos Gomez | 28 | MIL | OF | 4.8 | 2016 | $17,000,000 | 33 |
| 32 | Yordano Ventura | 23 | KC | SP | 2.8 | 2019 | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | Unranked |
| 31 | Sonny Gray | 24 | OAK | SP | 3.0 | 2019 | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | Unranked |
| 30 | Gregory Polanco | 22 | PIT | OF | 1.5 | 2020 | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | Unranked |
| 29 | Kris Bryant | 22 | CHC | 3B | 2.8 | TBD | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | Unranked |
| 28 | Andrelton Simmons | 24 | ATL | SS | 3.8 | 2020 | $56,000,000 | Unranked |
| 27 | Jose Bautista | 33 | TOR | OF | 4.8 | 2016 | $28,000,000 | 35 |
| 26 | Stephen Strasburg | 25 | WAS | SP | 4.4 | 2016 | Arb2 – Arb3 | 14 |
| 25 | Matt Harvey | 25 | NYM | SP | 3.8 | 2018 | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | 7 |
| 24 | Freddie Freeman | 24 | ATL | 1B | 3.7 | 2021 | $123,500,000 | Unranked |
| 23 | Xander Bogaerts | 21 | BOS | SS | 2.0 | 2019 | Pre-Arb – Arb3 | 29 |
| 22 | Yadier Molina | 31 | STL | C | 4.5 | 2017 | $43,000,000 | 11 |
| 21 | Buster Posey | 27 | SF | C | 4.9 | 2022 | $165,500,000 | 6 |
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
Thank you for changing it to this format :). Enjoyed the article.
Can you please revise the format in the future to remove all of the text and replace each entry with a GIF of a representative highlight of said player proportionally sized vertically to the applicable dollar value of the contract and then horizontally to the length of the contract and then scatter-plot those GIFs based on WAR and age? All of your words and numbers together hurt my eyes and brains.
I, too.
Massive kudos to Dave for (a) trying to improve and (b) being flexible when the results were in question. I liked the other way. I probably slightly prefer this way. Doesn’t matter though – Dave’s the man both ways.
I can say with confidence and agree, Dave is the man… both ways 🙂
Go back to the other format.
*ducks*
I think this format fits the bill just fine.
But does the bill fit the duck? That is the question.
Only a quack would suggest re-reverting back to the old new format.
Agreed. I liked the other format as well.
I demand Dave write two versions, one with the new format and one with old, then we can read them both and have a heads up do or dye vote on which one he has to use going forward.
Do or dye? You got it Jermaine!
Unless it’s a tie between the two formats, in which case we have a tie-dye.
Can I trade you for Neifi Perez?
I think there’s a legitimate top 15 case to be made for Freddie Freeman. The contract is looking more and more like a discount by the day, and everything about his game is so great.
“everything about his game is so great.”
Well, not his position, defense, or baserunning. He’s basically “just” a great hitter. That’s very valuable, but the reason he’s not in the top 15 is that he compiles essentially all his value with what he does at the plate, whereas more complete players get an assist from other aspects of their game.
Remember, this is a trade value rankings chart, not a player value ranking chart. Freddie Freeman is probably going to be worth every penny that the Braves pay him, but that doesn’t change the fact that his long term contract makes him less valuable as a trade piece.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by “less valuable” here. His contract status is better than some players on this list and worse than others; for example, his contract status is better than Carlos Gomez’s, despite the fact that that Gomez is owed less money in total and on a per-year basis. His contract status is clearly worse than Paul Goldschmidt or Anthony Rizzo (but the fact that Freeman is a better hitter than Rizzo closes some of that gap).
Better hitter than Rizzo? In what way? This seemed patently wrong to me, so I looked real quick, and this season they have been almost exactly the same hitters: as in, similar walk and strikeout rates, similar ISO, similar triple slash, similar wOBA, similar…
Better hitter than Rizzo in wRC+. I would have thought that was obvious. Freeman’s better this year, by a bit, and was better last year, by a ton. Seriously, what argument could you even advance to say Rizzo is as good as Freeman? You can say Freeman’s not much better. You can say you expect Rizzo to be better in the future (although as far as this year goes, Freeman is also projected as the better hitter going forward). But to say Freeman isn’t better right now is silly.
So Freeman’s 147 wRC+ compared to Rizzo’s 142? Hardly seems obvious. They still seem like pretty much the same hitter, and yes, I mean currently, this season. I now assume you are a troll.
Is 147 not greater than 142 where you come from, friend? Honestly, I’d be on firmer ground accusing you of trolling coming in here with this nonsense about Rizzo being an equal hitter to Freeman when he’s worse this year, worse last year, and projected as worse going forward.
With any statistical analysis, I believe it is standard practice to accept that the calculated number is generally within a +/-5 tolerance of true value. Given that the difference the two players value as hitters is well within that tolerance according to both wRC and wOBA it is fair to claim that Rizzo and Freeman have essentially been equals as hitters thus far this season. Rizzo has slightly better walk and K rates and more power, Freeman has the better average, both avoid making outs at about the same rate. They are both about the same age, but Freeman has the edge in Major League playing time. Freeman broke out last year and Rizzo looks like he is breaking out a year behind him. The two players could actually provide a fascinating point of comparison down the road as the tend to provide the same overall value at the plate but in slightly different ways.
I think the fact that Freeman has been at this level for 1.5 years, not .5 years, along with the slight edge this year, is justification enough to say that right now he is a better hitter. I think there is a tendency to not take SSS as seriously when it comes to highly touted prospects.
You were supposed to comment on the format. Didn’t you read above?
I still haven’t seen my name smh
Considering you’ve hit infinity% more home runs than last year, I suspect your place is firmly entrenched within the top 10, good sir.
You were in the Billy Hamilton summary, as what Hamilton has passed.
It’s a good thing!
I bet i’m mentioned last!!!
Xander 23rd most valuable in league!? Over SEager!? BIAS!!!!
What, are you high or something?
Yea I think this one is crazy. Xander isn’t having a very good season.
At 21. He’s not having a very good season in the major leagues… at 21.
Yeah but Mike Trout had a much better age-21 season. Bogaerts needs to get his act together.
Right, he’s currently a below average MLB player, appearing on a list of the most valuable MLB players
Either you are joking about BIAS!!!! or you missed the part about
Dave is a co-founder of USSMariner.com
I thought option 1 was pretty clear. Dave is always accused of Mariner (#6 Org) bias.
Why there ARENT any yankees player on the list,hah?
Well Jeter won’t be showing up until the top 10 thanks to his leadership and mystique.
Why did (player) get ranked so low? He has (stats) over the past (small sample size). I’ll admit I’m a fan of (player’s team), but I think I’m being objective here considering the player is only (age) and is signed for (dollar amount). I think we could easily get (Giancarlo Stanton) for him.
hahaha the Stanton-nonblank makes this perfect
This post alone would justify a regular MadLibs section in NotGraphs.
#nailedit #puttingtheFANinfangraphs
LOLOLololol…ololololol…ol
I have 1,000 monkeys working at 1,000 computers. Soon, they will have given you the most upvotes in the history of any internet known to man.
Are there still questions about some players ages? Or are they 100% sure on everyone’s birthday now? If there are still some questions did you factor that in for players like Polanco and Marte, or just ignore it?
You go with what information you have. You can’t ding someone for an officially listed age until it comes out that the player isn’t that age.
Polanco only has 127 major league at bats and has only been on the Pirates roster for 36 days. The cutoffs as I have always understood them are 130 AB and 45 days. Technically Polanco still is a prospect (though that will likely come to an end on Friday).
I was under the impression the cutoff is 130 PA, not AB..
I don’t follow
From MLB’s Official info page: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/about_mlb/rules_regulations.jsp
Determining rookie status:
A player shall be considered a rookie unless, during a previous season or seasons, he has (a) exceeded 130 at-bats or 50 innings pitched in the Major Leagues; or (b) accumulated more than 45 days on the active roster of a Major League club or clubs during the period of 25-player limit (excluding time in the military service and time on the disabled list).
Looks like it is at bats.
Why Brett Gardner ARENT on the list?
This guy is a good example of most Yankee fans in my opinion.
I thoroughly enjoy the smugness and superiority of advanced-stats guys toward less-knowledgable fans, in particular Yankee fans. You had two options: write a reasonable response and maybe help someone learn something (even if not OP), or take a crack.
Nicely done, fuckwit.
People don’t hate Yankee fans because they are “less knowledgeable;” they hate them because they root for the Evil Empire.
Awww… can the poor Yankee fan not take a joke?
I’m a Twins fan. I hate assholes.
@Steven: Every time a Yankee fan writes a well-written (typically self-deprecating these days, but still), sabermetrically-smart (or observant) response, it gets upvoted. Tell me it’s not about feeling smart and acting superior, especially toward people who don’t know what wRC+ is. The fact that it’s taking a shot at a Yankee fan is just convenient and upvote-whoring.
Enough of the self-loathing neckbeard.
Curious on why Bautista ranks higher than Gomez. Gomez is 5 years younger, is owed $11m less, and has been better over the past three seasons (although Bautista’s wRC+ is 139 compared to Gomez’s 125). Obviously they are only 6 slots apart but I doubt that many GM’s would prefer Bautista over Gomez unless they are significantly weighting Bautista’s seasons four and five years ago.
This was essentially the exact comment I was going to post. Gomez is younger, cheaper, and has been better this year. According to the chart, they’re both projected for 4.8 WAR. I just don’t see anything that would put Gomez over Bautista.
Teams pay more for offense than defense. It’s the same reason Freeman is ahead of Simmons, even though they’re the same age, same expected production, and Simmons costs half as much.
Then it would seem that Molina is too high on this list. Most of his value is defense, which is not so unusually great that it makes up for his age and declining bat.
He’s pretty comparable to Gomes right now, who has youth and upside and a team-friendly contract. The remaining 3+ years of Molina is about $10M more than the remaining 7+ years of Gomes. I imagine most GMs value the latter more.
Yeah, but old school guys have always been a step ahead of the Sabr crowd on catchers with great defense (witness Brad Ausmus’ long and illustrious career). Now that pitch framing has become the sabr thing of the moment, old school and stat school are in pretty close agreement about catcher valuation.
I wonder how much more valuable Rick Dempsey might seem when looked at via today’s methods…
The “crazy” factor has to hurt Gomez a bit, too.
Anyone else think a Polanco for Bryant swap would make sense for both teams?
Pittsburgh has a third baseman, Chicago has outfielders. I think a swap centered around Taillon and Baez, if Pittsburgh believes Baez can stick at SS, would make more sense.
I was thinking Bryant or Alvarez at first.
But you’re right, the Cubs do already have outfielders.
I’m not qualified to be a GM. But if I were one who picked up Travis Wood, Hammel and Arrieta in the last year for next to nothing, I would probably just continue to find similar guys instead of trading my top MI prospect for your lesser pitching prospect.
The Cubs have OF’s? I didn’t realize they had such a high opinion of the Bonifacio/Ruggiano/Coghlan trio. Or perhaps you were including Schierholtz/Lake and their combined -.8 WAR. In all seriousness, even with Almora and Soler, they are still one short.
Yeah, I thought so too. Chicago, especially after acquiring Addison Russell, have IF depth, while the Pirates have some good OF prospects currently blocked (Austin Meadows, Josh Bell).
And Pedro Alvarez will probably be traded, so 3B would be open. If the Pirates don’t want to trade Pedro, they could also move him to first as you said.
I hope Price doesn’t show up in the next installment. He’s one of the top 5 trade values out there, top 10 is a no-brainer
Andrew, when you go to trade your boy, Price, you better hope the other GM’s don’t notice his #47 ranking on last year’s list.
I wonder what other zero-service time prospects we’ll see on here.
There are several hitting prospects rated higher than him on the top-100 lists, and they can’t all fit in the top 20 of this list along with major leaguers.
There won’t be any. Dave said Bogaerts is the highest ranked player that is not already a star.
If Buxton and Bryant have already shown up, probably none.
But if the consensus of all prospect evaluators is that Buxton, Correa, Sano, Polanco, Russel, Lindor, Taveras are greater than or at worst roughly equal to Bryant…. then Dave would be pretty bold to put Bryant above them all.
Well yeah, Buxton might be the best prospect in the game, but he certainly has more risk than Bryant, who has mashed everywhere he’s been (this cming from a Twins fan.) Less risk, higher floor, it’s the same reason hitters are preferred over pitchers that project to have the WAR.
Well yeah, Buxton might be the best prospect, but he certainly has m risk than Bryant, who has mashed everywhere he’s been including AAA (and this is coming from a Twins fan.) Less risk, higher floor, it’s the same reason hitters are preferred over pitchers even when they project to have the same WAR.
You’re behind on the times.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/top-25-prospects-a-midseason-update/
Interesting, so Felix goes from #22 into the top 20, I presume? I guess his contract is looking more favorable and it probably doesn’t hurt that he’s having a career year.
And Chris Davis either dropped out of the rankings altogether from the #18 position, or is hanging by his fingernails in the top 20.
re: Chris Davis. It’s the former, not the latter.
Best guess on who is left (off the top of my head and not in order):
Trout
McCutchen
Stanton
Tulowitzki
Rendon
Rizzo
Machado
Sale
Hernandez
Abreu
Harper
Puig
Darvish
Perez
Lucroy
Bumgarner
Goldschmidt
Donaldson
Arenado
Yelich
Longoria…
Yeah, good call. Swap out Yelich.
It’s not Arenado. Arenado hasn’t shown he can hit – 84 wRC+. I doubt Arenado is top 100, let alone top 20.
Longo in for sure, Yelich out, probably Arenado out too, though can’t come up with a replacement offhand.
Perhaps J. Upton
This is overly simplistic, of course, but the inequality goes something like this:
Yan Gomes > Addison Russell > Jeff Samardzija > Martin Prado + Randall Delgado ~ Justin Upton
“Martin Prado + Randall Delgado ~ Justin Upton”
Oh hey, Kevin Towers, sup.
You’re thinking Kershaw’s big contract prices him out of the top 20 altogether? I guess I see him slotting in before Arenado or Yelich.
Dave adressed that in intro post. Kershsw has an option where he can elect free agency if traded, which makes him untradeable
Dave already addressed that in the intro. Kershaw’s no-trade clause on steroids (the opt-out) is keeping him off the list entirely.
Adam Wainwright?
Yeah, I think swap out Arenado and Yelich from the original list, and swap in Longoria (still somewhere in the Top 10 in my mind) and Wainwright (back end of the Top 20, at least when he doesn’t feel the need to “groove” pitches.)
I agree with this.
Dave SWORE no pitchers in the top 10. So Sale has to move down…
He said they are not in order.
Starlin Castro? 3+ WAR Shortstop owed $60M for 7 years.
Dave mentioned in the chat today that Castro is not on the list.
I’m sure the -14 career offensive runs created has something to do with it.
Who is this Perez you speak of?
Salvador
So Quintana is at 37, and Sale and Abreu haven’t even shown up yet. If only three players were enough for a championship. Looking at you, basketball.
Is there a worst trade value list? Would be fun too.
It’s just “A-Rod” over and over again in flashing neon 72pt. font.
Pujols gets an honorable mention.
Howard, Ryan.
How can these rankings be real when trades aren’t real?
Anyone else shocked by Posey? 165 million left seems like it takes him out of the top 50, let alone top 21…
Yes, especially given his downswing in performance dating back to last summer.
I know right? The 25 WAR he’s projected to have over the next 5 seasons is totally worthless. I mean, he’s 27 years old already, he should just retire.
I am dead serious when I say that you are a dick, sir.
Thank you for switching to this format. It had to be difficult to switch halfway through, but it is appreciated.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SWITCHING BACK.
Seriously, Dave – it takes a big man to suck it up and “listen to the mob.” And you know what? This reversion to the old format *really is* so much better.
Thanks again.
Very lazy thinking here. Buxton, like Polanco, comes “…with a substantial amount of risk.” Every prospect does.
Then there are the hitters who were supposed to hit for power and, surprise, did hit for power.
Polanco started his ML career hitting for average and power. Then he slumped, while striking out a lot. He has 146 PA — a small sample size, and thus a viable platform for generating FUD.
I am having trouble understanding the meaning of this post, but have narrowed its meaning to a few possibilities – please be helpful and choose, thanks:
a) you think Dave is lazy and needed to tell the internet
b) you think Dave doesn’t understand risk and needed to instruct him
c) you own Polanco on your fantasy team
d) you are a Pirates fan
e) you are practicing your post-formatting skills
f) you are trolling Josh Harrison in a very specific and nuanced way
Lazy thinking = the use of cliches deployed as substitutes for rational thought about the matter being discussed.
I find his points very annoying.
Prospects are very risky. That’s true, but also trivial. In fact, every player is risky. They may fail to perform as expected. This too is trivially true. But is Polanco riskier than any other top-shelf prospect? If one believes he is riskier, then state that and defend the belief. Make the claim concrete. Do not use it to diminish the perceived value of a prospect because, even if it successfully diminishes his perceived value, it tells us nothing useful about the player in question. Thus: Is Polanco riskier than Bryant who is rated above him? That seems doubtful given Bryant’s K-rates. Is he riskier than Bogarts or Harvey? I would not think so. But they are ranked above Polanco, and their expected value is based on projection, and thus risky by definition.
Some prospects fail to reach their real or perceived ceiling. Their power does not develop. Also a true claim; also trivial. Some players reach their real or perceived ceiling. This too is both true and trivial.
True and trivial. And vacuous.
As I stated, I think David engaged in lazy thinking, and stated that point. I would have passed over his statement without posting but for the fact that I am a Pirates fan. But my team fandom does not alter my argument in any way. It only motivated me to post it.
Bogaerts and Harvey both have more upside than Polanco.
I suppose I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t understand what the big complaint is.
1) Dave had been writing these in article format and switched to blurbs for each player. Some short cuts are necessary and I don’t think the ones your pointing out are particularly egregious.
2) Bryant is one spot ahead of Polanco. He might just think that Bryant’s service clock having not started makes him more valuable. He didn’t have Bryant at 1 and Polanco at 50. This is really splitting hairs.
And clearly he thinks Polanco is less risky than most prospects. He rates him very highly on this list. I’m sure Dave could make this article take 50 days and do a post as long as the above for each player, but that would be ridiculous. Yes, there is more nuance to each and every player than what is listed above. There is risk associated with Polanco because we do not have a long track record of sustained success at the big league level. That’s why he’s “only” the 30th most valuable trade piece in baseball. That’s still huge praise. If you want to, in your head, bump him up a few spots, I’m sure nobody would quibble too much with that.
Maybe your team fandom doesn’t alter your argument, but I think it certainly has resulted in you picking a nit where it is entirely unnecessary.
+But is Polanco riskier than any other top-shelf prospect?+
The answer to your question is “No.”– but it’s basically a strawman argument. Polanco’s a prospect. Every prospect is risky. To stereotype: massively riskier than any already established top-shelf major league player. The folks ahead of him on this list are almost all already major league stars, not prospects. Having watched the trials of top-ten prospects Smoak/Montero and especially Dustin Ackley (who had a great 1/2 season when he first hit the majors), you can’t realistically expect Dave–or anyone–to rank your prospect in front of all the established stars.
Marcus A & BookBook:
I did not criticize Dave Cameron’s actual placement of Polanco on his list. I criticized one part of his overall description of Polanco for reasons I have already given.
Tom:
I find lists such as these interesting but misleading. They are misleading because identifying the true value of this or that prospect such that we can realistically compare any two prospects and place them in a clear a > b relation. This seems like splitting hairs. It’s more productive to place prospects into categories which can be ranked and which contain prospects of like quality. To my mind, Polanco, Bogarts, Bryant and Harvey would be members of one group.
On behalf of Pirate fans across the world, please stop typing.
So Polanco and Bryant make the list but not Taveras? Based off what?
Polanco and Bryant have recently crushed AAA pitching while Taveras is two years removed from crushing AA pitching and continually battling injuries.
Yet Taveras is still younger than both. Not having Taveras somewhere on the list is a mistake to me. Even Springer was on the just missed list.
Springer also completely crushed AAA this year and last. Polanco and Bryant are both like a half year older than Taveras. I’m a huge Cardinals fan, so I hope I’m wrong. But Taveras just hasn’t come close to hitting the way Polanco, Bryant or Springer have over the last calendar year.
Being younger than someone doesn’t instantly make them more valuable.
Where’s Mike Trout already? This list is clearly biased against fish.
He is #1
Yup. Even with the new contract. He’s that good
Why didn’t Al Gore invent sarcasm font?
there are a lot of players on this list from #21-50 who have less trade value than George Springer. Seriously.
How does Juan OSVALDO! Lagares compare to Simmons? It seems like he’s in a similar place to where Simmons was last year. His WAR/600 is actually 4.7 compared to Simmons’ 4.25, over about half the sample size. He’s been of similar offensive value (not an embarrassment) while providing elite defensive value. If his next calendar year is of similar value, would he rank in the same area? Top 50 at least?
Dave’s comment about teams paying more for offense than defense suggests an interesting alternate list: greatest actual value (trade value in a rational market) relative to trade value.
I’ll nominate Christian Vazquez for the top 10.
So Mookie Betts must be in the top 20…
… of Red Sox prospects.
I don’t know if you’ll see this Dave, but I have to ask about Tanaka. I know you probably were working on this pre-injury and I’m not sure if it has been updated. But 7 years/$155M the the opt-out is looking fairly reasonable at this point. While there is a limited sample size and regression will likely occur, I think about the money Scherzer and Lester will receive on the open market and despite both having a relatively checkered past and being significantly older, and I have to think: Prior to the injury, Tanaka had to have some significant trade value.
Not really a question on this: But where Jose Abreu ends up will be very interesting,especially when you consider the deal Chris Davis supposedly turned down a big extension and the premium that power is demanding in the current market.
$22 million a year for a pitcher is anti-trade value. Hell that’s only $2 million a year less than Mike Freaking Trout.
Salary is only one half of what constitutes trade value. Obviously his injury complicates things, but previously he was well worth the $22 million and I would bet you he had an enormous amount of trade value at only 25 years old.
The problem is the opt out though. If he gets injured you have a 7 year liability. If he’s great you get 4 years at a slight discount.
It’s a negative, but I still think he had plenty of trade value when healthy. The value is all relative to opportunity cost, and to get any SP of his caliber past arb years you would be dealing with a similar contract. I don’t know if he’s going to be on this list or not, but I think he had plenty more trade value than a lot of guys on the list, like Cobb or Pedroia, before injury.
Side note: I think Pedroia on this list is a major mistake. Pedroia is a month shy of 31 in the post-PED era, may already be in decline, has large career home/road splits as a RH playing his home games in Fenway, and is making 8 figures for 7 more years. That contract is only team friendly if he keeps producing, but given how hard players are aging in this era that is hardly a given. If this time next year Pedroia is among the 50 least valuable trade pieces I wouldn’t be at all surprised.
Also, Yordano Ventura is a big surprise to me. I think there are still serious concerns about his ability to stick as a starter long term. He has an elite fastball and a good curve and changeup.
But I’ll ask: How is that different than say Julio Teheran,without the top prospect track record? Would you seriously suggest any take would not take the additional risk/1 less year of Fernandez and take Ventura instead?
So the Pirates have all 3 starting OF’s in the top 50? SALE THE TEAM.
Chris Sale the team?
Trade the entire team for Chris Sale?
I, personally, would rather see this done in a more quantitative format. Using a simple model that projects expected value less expected cost. That is basically how I think a team should be calculating trade value.
I visit fangraphs and stay away from grantland specifically because I want more rigorous analytics and less unsubstantiated opinion.
Dave’s comment that teams value offence over defence reminds me of the old Hall of Fame vs. Hall of Merit discussions. Personally, I am not really interested whether some General Managers think that Brandon Moss is exceptionally valuable because he is a proven run producer or that some General Managers think that Noah Syndergaard is exceptionally valuable because he has the good face and an outstanding build in addition to a 100 mph fastball.
And as for the TJ rehab cases, I don’t agree with Dave at all. The record for hard-throwing starters is much more variable than Dave suggests. Jose Fernandez may come back and be as good as Stephen Strasburg, or he may never pitch as a starter again. It is true that some teams see the evidence the same way that Dave does.
I think you are misinterpreting and oversimplifying the offense/defense issue. There are legitimate reasons for offense to be valued more highly than defense: scarcity, variability, and overall impact on wins. I don’t think many, if any, GMs don’t understand positional value or that defense generally has value. I don’t think it has anything to do with Moss or face/build.
If there is such a compelling body of evidence that contradicts the mainstream consensus on TJS, it should be very easy to point to. Historical success after the procedure is a matter of public record. Of course Fernandez may succeed or he may fail. That’s not the question (and is another huge oversimplification). The question is what the odds of him succeeding and failing are, leading to a projected value going forward which can be compared with his expected cost going forward.
Scarcity, variability and overall impact on wins have nothing to do with the valuing of defence vis a vis offence. There is definitely an important measurement issue for defence (which essentially results from sample size over time; by the time that you have a large enough sample for some players, there are important aging factors at work too) This may rightfully lead teams to place greater weight on measured offence vis a vis measured defence. My point wasn’t that there is not a difference, but that the reality should be more interesting to us than the perception.
What is precisely the consensus on TJS? That it has a 15% absolute failure rate (among major leaguers as a whole) and a variety of outcomes less serious than absolute failure? That it is no more serious than a root canal? If the former, I agree. If the latter, I disagree. If one restricts the sample to hard-throwing starting pitchers, the record is, I think, a little worse (this fits with the current scientific understanding that velocity and quantity are now known to be risk factors). In a case like Fernandez’, you have to be particularly concerned by his young age at first onset. The literature suggests that the absolute failure rate of TJS in high-schoolers is 26%, and for someone of Fernandez’ age, it is probably somewhere in the middle.
Yes, in fact, they have a lot to do with it. Good offensive players are scarcer than good defensive players at any given position, and if you don’t think scarcity is related to market price then you need to take an intro to econ class. A player’s defensive metrics tend to be far more variable overtime than offensive metrics, and if you don’t think variability has anything to do with value then you need to take an intro to finance class. Overall impact is a really obvious one: no intro class required. Strong offensive performance is just going to have more impact on wins than defensive because the difference between an average and good offensive player will result in more runs scored than the difference between an average and equally good defensive player will result in runs saved.
My point was that reality might be much closer to perception than you seem to believe.
Again, if you disagree with the consensus all you have to do is point to evidence. Instead of rambling on about the body literature, just provide a freaking link.
No reply where I wanted one, but this is for Ted Nelson who spends a good amount of time lecturing about which classes are required then follows that up with:
“the difference between an average and good offensive player will result in more runs scored than the difference between an average and equally good defensive player will result in runs saved.”
You need to take a 1st grade math again and focus on what the ‘=’ sign means.
I actually thought Simmons was not going to make it after not being 31-50, but didn’t want to be one of *those* Braves fans by saying anything.
I can’t get past this statement, “He is legitimately one of the game’s very best players” about Yadier. As a fan of his, I believe this to be true. I have for about 3.5 years now. And it seems if you can say that about a player for that long, then they have to be in a HOF conversation. Simply looking at his WAR numbers, he isn’t in. He will probably be lucky to get past Posada in career WAR and I think Posada is considered a fringe candidate at best. Could his reputation for managing pitchers and the running game count enough to get him over the top? Or is it simply that he’s going to be in the hall of very good and that’s that?
Sorry for hijacking the thread, this just interests me. Thanks.
I kind of question whether most HOF voters are perusing career WAR when they cast their votes anway.
C defense is not really measured by WAR, so even if HoF voters are looking at WAR it should only matter so much. If he ends up around the same career WAR, he might have a better case than Jorge based on defensive factors such as P framing and probably fewer runners even trying to steal on him.
I’m not sure if Yadier is a HoF, though. Maybe his defense should get him in, but offensively he’s at league average for his career. Good for a C, just doesn’t scream HoF. It’s only been 3 seasons that he’s been well above average offensively.
I also think we are rapidly approaching the point where the HOF is really not even relevant as a measure of historic greatness to anyone under 50. If Barry Bonds, A-Rod, and Manny aren’t in it, the three greatest hitters I’ve ever seen with my own eyes, what’s the point?
the point is for old white dudes to remind the world that players didn’t do roids are better people than those who did. apparently.