2017 Trade Value: #21 to #30

(Photo: Keith Allison)
Welcome to the fourth installment of this year’s Trade Value series; you can find links to the previous three posts above. If you’re not familiar with this project, there’s an explanation of the process in the HM post, so that’s the best place to start.
As a reminder for those who don’t like clicking links, however, the five-year WAR projections are based on Dan Szymborski’s ZiPS forecasts, though the players aren’t ranked based on those projections; these figures are included merely as a piece of information to help round out the picture. The guaranteed-dollars line measures the amount of money the player is owed outside of team options or arbitration years; for most of these guys, team options are very likely to be exercised, and many of them will end up making more than the guaranteed-dollars number reports.
Now let’s turn our attention to today’s 10 players.
| Team Control WAR Total | +13.9 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #49 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 26 | +3.2 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 27 | +3.5 | Arb1 |
| 2020 | 28 | +3.6 | Arb2 |
| 2021 | 29 | +3.6 | Arb3 |
If Jon Gray pitched in any other stadium in baseball, he’d probably be considered one of the game’s best young hurlers by now. With premium velocity and a very good slider, he profiles as a guy who can miss bats and manage contact well enough, and if his command takes a step forward, there’s ace potential here.
With four years of control remaining, and traditional stats that won’t let him get big arbitration raises, Gray is going to be a bargain for a while. He might not have the recognition of some of the other hurlers on this list, but if he got traded out of Colorado, that would change quickly. The Rockies know what they have, though, and they’ll happily keep him instead.
| Team Control WAR Total | +12.7 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #40 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 24 | +3.0 | Arb1 |
| 2019 | 25 | +3.2 | Arb2 |
| 2020 | 26 | +3.3 | Arb3 |
| 2021 | 27 | +3.3 | Arb4 |
Elite strikeout rates, elite ground-ball rates, and now he’s giving up some of the weakest contact in the league too? On a per-innings basis, there are few pitchers in baseball better than Lance McCullers.
But quantity of innings remains a bit of a concern. McCullers was limited to just 14 starts last year due to problems with both his shoulder and elbow. He’s made 16 starts so far this year, but the Astros have been aggressive at getting him out of games early, as he’s averaging just 23 batters faced per start. Given his history of arm problems, he’s probably never going to be that 200-inning workhorse whom everyone covets.
As dominant as McCullers can be, though, there’s still a lot of value in getting 160 or 170 high-impact innings, especially if it keeps him healthy for the postseason. The Astros know there’s no real reason to push his workload right now, given their large lead, and his only DL stint this year looked more like a rest period than a serious injury. So, with four years of control after this one, there would be a number of teams lining up to acquire McCullers, health risks and all.
| Team Control WAR Total | +13.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $14.5 M |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #27 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 31 | +3.7 | $6.5 M |
| 2019 | 32 | +3.4 | $8.0 M |
| 2020 | 33 | +3.2 | $9.0 M |
| 2021 | 34 | +3.2 | $9.5 M |
Lance McCullers + Track Record = Carlos Carrasco.
The paragraphs I wrote above for McCullers basically hold true here. On a per-innings basis, Carrasco is elite, but you’re not getting 200 innings a year from him; you might not ever get 200 innings from him, in fact. But as long as you accept that there are going to be some skipped starts and a managed workload, Carrasco is still one of the best arms around, and his decision to ask the Indians for a guaranteed contract means that he’s one of the cheapest frontline starters around. He’s under contract for just two more guaranteed years, and if his arm holds up, Cleveland has team options 2020 and 2021, as well, giving them the ideal combination of long-term potential without any significant risk.
| Five-Year WAR | +17.3 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $43.3 M |
| Team Control Through | 2022 |
| Previous Rank | #23 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 26 | +3.6 | $7.0 M |
| 2019 | 27 | +3.5 | $9.8 M |
| 2020 | 28 | +3.5 | $12.5 M |
| 2021 | 29 | +3.5 | $14.0 M |
| 2022 | 30 | +3.2 | $15.0 M |
The trouble with breakout stars is that you can’t really be entirely sure that a breakout is going to last. Last year, Yelich showed every sign of taking steps towards sustained improvement, finally getting the ball off the ground and tapping into some power to make a legitimate offensive force. But to this point in 2017, the power hasn’t yet carried over, and to make matters worse, he’s now running the lowest BABIP of his career. Instead of building off his 2016 season, Yelich has taken a bit of a step back, and again putting his ultimate offensive value into question.
But it’s also important to look at the big picture here. This is a 25-year-old up-the-middle player with a career 119 wRC+ and excellent baserunning abilities. Yelich hasn’t become Joey Votto yet, and I know he feels kind of disappointing in some ways, but it says something about our expectations that a guy averaging +3.5 WAR per season from age 21-25 could be considered anything but a success.
He might not ever be any better than this. Last year’s breakout could have just been a career year. But even if this is all Yelich is, well, this is still a really good player, with five more years of team control after this, at prices that buy you a mediocre platoon guy these days. And if he ever does consistently tap into his power, then Yelich would instantly become one of the most valuable pieces in any organization.
| Five-Year WAR | +14.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2022 |
| Previous Rank | #38 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 23 | +2.2 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 24 | +2.9 | Pre-Arb |
| 2020 | 25 | +3.1 | Arb1 |
| 2021 | 26 | +3.1 | Arb2 |
| 2022 | 27 | +3.1 | Arb3 |
In some ways, Benintendi is similar to Yelich. He’s playing corner outfield now, though he probably could handle center field and might shift positions depending on how the Red Sox construct their roster for the long haul. He doesn’t have the kind of power you generally expect in a corner outfielder, but he controls the strike zone well, and there’s room to add more power as he gets older. Just 22, he’d still be a useful big leaguer even without any improvement, but he’s young enough that it’s not hard to imagine some more growth is coming.
A team looking to maximize present value probably wouldn’t win the bidding war for Benintendi, but his combination of being able to play everyday now while also providing long-term value would be appealing to any team looking to win in the near future.
That said, there are a number of “he’ll grow into his power” guys floating around MLB who just never did. And it’s not like Benintendi is hitting a bunch of doubles that you can easily just extrapolate into home runs; nearly half (12 of 26) of his extra-base hits this year have gone over the wall. And Benintendi isn’t exactly the biggest guy in the world, nor is he hitting the ball all that hard as of yet. There’s enough present and future value here for teams to still consider him an organizational building block, but I will admit to now harboring a bit of skepticism about his eventual upside. I wouldn’t be terribly shocked if he fell off this list next year, in fact.
| Team Control WAR Total | +11.9 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #32 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 25 | +2.9 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 26 | +3.0 | Arb1 |
| 2020 | 27 | +3.0 | Arb2 |
| 2021 | 28 | +3.0 | Arb3 |
While some guy in New York has overshadowed every other young slugger in the first half, Sano has been pretty impressive in his own right, re-establishing himself as one of the best young hitters in baseball. On average, he hits the ball harder than anyone else in baseball besides that monster in the Bronx.
The move back to third base has also been beneficial, as his physical skills work a lot better there than in the outfield. He’s probably never going to win a Gold Glove, but he can handle third base for now, and with his power, he’s become one of the better third baseman in the game.
A 24-year-old elite slugger with four years of team control remaining is the kind of building block about which teams dream. While the Twins still need a few more pieces to fall into place before they become legitimate contenders, they’ve found their cleanup hitter for years to come.
| Team Control WAR Total | +10.9 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2019 |
| Previous Rank | #13 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 28 | +5.8 | $6.0 M |
| 2019 | 29 | +5.1 | $6.5 M |
Once just a fun curiosity, Altuve has become a legitimate contender for the title of best non-Trout hitter in the American League, and even though this has been the case for a few years, it’s still amazing. In 2013, he slugged just .363 and only had 38 extra-base hits in 672 plate appearances. He has 40 extra-base hits already this season and is slugging .551, the kind of numbers that used to be reserved for guys who looked like Miguel Sano. But the 5-foot-6 Altuve is now a legitimate power threat, and his remarkable strike-zone control didn’t suffer in the development.
Because Altuve signed an early-career extension back when he didn’t have any power, the Astros have a pair of team options that they can exercise for the next two years, and those options will pay him a grand total of $12.5 million. Total, not per season. The remainder of Altuve’s deal pays him as if he were something like Matt Joyce. Instead, he’s something like the prime version of Craig Biggio. Altuve’s development into a legitimate superstar is one of the main reasons the Astros are a behemoth.
| Team Control WAR Total | +9.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $11.0 M |
| Team Control Through | 2019 |
| Previous Rank | #9 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 30 | +4.8 | $11.0 M |
| 2019 | 31 | +4.6 | $14.5 M |
Speaking of guys who signed their long-term extension just a little too early, Goldschmidt has two years left on the deal he signed before the 2013 season, back when he was a 24-year-old coming off a good-not-great first season as a major leaguer. As a former eighth-round pick who wasn’t considered much of a prospect on his way to the big leagues, it’s easy to understand why $32 million in guaranteed money was too difficult to pass up.
Had he not signed the deal, however, he’d be a free agent at the end of this season and would probably be looking at a long-term deal between $200 and $300 million. Instead, he’ll make $25 million over the next two years, and hope the market still likes him in a few years, when he’s selling his age-32-and-beyond years.
But that’s hindsight. No one knew Goldschmidt was going to turn into this. He’s gone from an interesting late-bloomer into the best all-around first baseman in the game, and he basically has no flaws. He walks, he makes contact, he hits for power, he runs the bases very well, and he’s an excellent defender at his position. While the team’s pitching has been the biggest difference between last year and this year, the biggest reason the Diamondbacks are ever in contention is their franchise first baseman.
| Five-Year WAR | +19.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2022 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 25 | +3.7 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 26 | +3.9 | Arb1 |
| 2020 | 27 | +4.1 | Arb2 |
| 2021 | 28 | +4.1 | Arb3 |
| 2022 | 29 | +3.7 | Arb4 |
For me, Michael Fulmer has been the surprise of this year’s project. I knew he had a strong rookie season, but I also knew that it was based in large part on a low BABIP that didn’t look sustainable. I knew he was having a good sophomore year, as well, but that his strikeout rate had actually gone backwards and that, once again, he was succeeding by limiting hits on balls in play. The strikes-and-grounders approach can certainly work, but when thinking about the best young pitchers in baseball, I generally didn’t put Fulmer in that category.
But ZIPS obviously loves him, despite the lack of strikeouts, which is pretty interesting. And as I asked people in baseball about him, the responses were almost unanimously positive. Jose Quintana with better stuff. What Sonny Gray was a couple of years ago. Zack Greinke’s name even came up, referencing a guy who figured out how to strike batters out later in his career, as a reason to not care too much about Fulmer’s current whiff rates.
The general consensus I got was that this is the type of guy on whom FIP-style metrics will miss the most. And unlike last year, the Statcast data actually supports the notion that Fulmer is the primary reason why hitters aren’t doing anything when they make contact against him: his .287 xwOBA is not far off his .275 wOBA allowed. Fulmer gets a lot of weak grounders, so even though he’s not missing bats, he’s creating outs.
So, yeah, Michael Fulmer. He’s not a household name yet, but he does indeed look like one of the best young starting pitchers in baseball. And with five years of control remaining, the Tigers have the thing every contender wants: a cheap young frontline starter who isn’t going anywhere any time soon.
| Team Control WAR Total | +12.2 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2019 |
| Previous Rank | #15 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 29 | +6.1 | $12.5 M |
| 2019 | 30 | +6.2 | $15.0 M |
Before this year, it was kind of easy to take Chris Sale for granted. He was really good, but there was that Kershaw guy, so he was never the best left-handed pitcher in baseball. He mostly didn’t pitch on winning teams, so we never saw him on the big stage in October.
But in an era when pitchers are regularly breaking down and in which a home-run spike has transformed some formerly good pitchers into batting-practice machines, Sale is now better than ever. And considering he’s finished in the top six in Cy Young voting for five consecutive years, that’s saying something. Barring a second-half collapse, he’ll win his first trophy this year. And deservedly so, as his numbers are just insane.
The Red Sox paid a steep price to land Sale this winter, but so far, he’s making them look wise for not backing down in a bidding war. It’s hard to find pitchers who have this kind of impact on a team; to get one for three years at bargain rates is incredibly valuable.
| Rk | Pv | Player | Age | 2018 | 2019 | 2020 | 2021 | 2022 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 21 | 15 | Chris Sale | 28 | +6.1 $12.5 M |
+6.2 $15.0 M |
|||
| 22 | – | Michael Fulmer | 24 | +3.7 Pre-Arb |
+3.9 Arb1 |
+4.1 Arb2 |
+4.1 Arb3 |
+3.7 Arb4 |
| 23 | 9 | Paul Goldschmidt | 29 | +4.8 $11.0 M |
+4.6 $14.5 M |
|||
| 24 | 13 | Jose Altuve | 27 | +5.8 $6.0 M |
+5.1 $6.5 M |
|||
| 25 | 32 | Miguel Sano | 24 | +2.9 Pre-Arb |
+3.0 Arb1 |
+3.0 Arb2 |
+3.0 Arb3 |
|
| 26 | 38 | Andrew Benintendi | 22 | +2.2 Pre-Arb |
+2.9 Pre-Arb |
+3.1 Arb1 |
+3.1 Arb2 |
+3.1 Arb3 |
| 27 | 23 | Christian Yelich | 25 | +3.6 $7.0 M |
+3.5 $9.8 M |
+3.5 $12.5 M |
+3.5 $14.0 M |
+3.2 $15.0 M |
| 28 | 27 | Carlos Carrasco | 30 | +3.7 $6.5 M |
+3.4 $8.0 M |
+3.2 $9.0 M |
+3.2 $9.5 M |
|
| 29 | 40 | Lance McCullers | 23 | +3.0 Arb1 |
+3.2 Arb2 |
+3.3 Arb3 |
+3.3 Arb4 |
|
| 30 | 49 | Jon Gray | 25 | +3.2 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Arb1 |
+3.6 Arb2 |
+3.6 Arb3 |
|
| 31 | 8 | Nolan Arenado | 26 | +4.9 $17.8 M |
+5.0 Arb4 |
|||
| 32 | 16 | Madison Bumgarner | 27 | +5.2 $12.0 M |
+5.2 $12.0 M |
|||
| 33 | – | Max Scherzer | 32 | +5.5 $15.0 M |
+5.1 $35.0 M |
+4.6 $35.0 M |
+4.6 $35.0 M |
|
| 34 | 12 | Noah Syndergaard | 24 | +4.7 Arb1 |
+4.9 Arb2 |
+5.0 Arb3 |
+5.0 Arb4 |
|
| 35 | – | Luis Severino | 23 | +2.5 Pre-Arb |
+2.9 Arb1 |
+3.1 Arb2 |
+3.1 Arb3 |
+2.8 Arb4 |
| 36 | – | Jameson Taillon | 25 | +2.2 Pre-Arb |
+2.4 Pre-Arb |
+2.3 Arb1 |
+2.3 Arb2 |
+2.2 Arb3 |
| 37 | 22 | Jacob deGrom | 29 | +3.2 Arb2 |
+3.0 Arb3 |
+2.8 Arb4 |
||
| 38 | 37 | Alex Bregman | 23 | +3.5 Pre-Arb |
+3.8 Pre-Arb |
+3.8 Arb1 |
+3.8 Arb2 |
+4.0 Arb3 |
| 39 | – | Ender Inciarte | 26 | +3.7 $4.0 M |
+3.5 $5.0 M |
+3.4 $7.0 M |
+3.4 $8.0 M |
+3.3 $9.0 M |
| 40 | 31 | Addison Russell | 23 | +4.2 Arb1 |
+4.6 Arb2 |
+4.5 Arb3 |
+4.5 Arb4 |
|
| 41 | 26 | Yoan Moncada | 22 | +2.2 Pre-Arb |
+3.1 Pre-Arb |
+3.6 Pre-Arb |
+3.6 Arb1 |
+3.8 Arb2 |
| 42 | 25 | Jose Quintana | 28 | +3.8 $8.8 M |
+3.8 $10.5 M |
+3.6 $10.5 M |
||
| 43 | – | Robbie Ray | 25 | +3.4 Arb1 |
+3.5 Arb2 |
+3.7 Arb3 |
||
| 44 | – | Anthony Rendon | 27 | +4.4 Arb3 |
+4.2 Arb4 |
|||
| 45 | 20 | Xander Bogaerts | 24 | +3.8 Arb2 |
+3.6 Arb3 |
|||
| 46 | 28 | Jackie Bradley Jr. | 27 | +3.2 Arb2 |
+2.9 Arb3 |
+2.8 Arb4 |
||
| 47 | – | Marcus Stroman | 26 | +2.2 Arb2 |
+2.5 Arb3 |
+2.5 Arb4 |
||
| 48 | – | James Paxton | 28 | +2.8 Arb2 |
+2.9 Arb3 |
+2.8 Arb4 |
||
| 49 | – | Aaron Nola | 24 | +2.9 Pre-Arb |
+3.2 Arb1 |
+3.3 Arb2 |
+3.0 Arb3 |
|
| 50 | 47 | Jake Lamb | 26 | +2.6 Arb1 |
+2.7 Arb2 |
+2.6 Arb3 |
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
I feel like Fullmer should be ranked higher than he is.
If Dave had done a Tier system, I think there is an obvious divide between Fulmer and guys immediately after him in terms of control (Altuve, Goldy) or quality (Benintendi, Sano).
Always look forward to this list! I’m curious though as to why Goldschmidt is ranked higher than Altuve when he is projected for less WAR over the next two years, has a higher salary and only one of his two years is a team option compared to both years for Altuve. Also, Altuve is younger and plays a more premium position. Is this just a case of thinking that teams think more highly of the intangibles that Goldschmidt might bring to the table?
That was my thought as well. Seeing them back-to-back, it seems like Altuve is better in pretty much every aspect.
The only thing I can think of is that Power (HR/ISO) gets paid more than anything, and Goldschmidt has more power. But either way, one spot in the ranking is pretty much indistinguishable.
Agreed that one spot is indistinguishable. Just curious to know what else goes into the rankings that we might not see on paper. And good point on the power – I think that’s probably valid.
MLB teams don’t trust extremes. Whether it is wise or not, I don’t know.
Maybe something like the SD for their projected values?
IE (all numbers hypothetical), maybe +/- 3SD for Goldschmidt is like +1.8 to +7.8 and +1.6 to +7.6 for the next two years, but Altuve is +4.8 to +6.8 and +4.1 to +6.1.
Perhaps the system sees Goldschmidt essentially with a higher ceiling [but lower floor] and gives some bonus points for high ceilings?
In the past, Cameron’s discussed the heightened trade value of bippity-boppity-booper boppers over non-hitters.
Given that they’re both splendid hitters, though – I think this might be a ranking based on body type.
This is exactly what I was thinking. No one quite believes Altuve is for real because he’s so small. This is ridiculous, because he’s awesome, but old scouting reports on what his size means for his production die hard.
you guys are forgetting the most obvious difference, but IDK if Dave baked these into his rankings. Goldy is white. In the “real world” this adds value, especially in a market say like Boston? lol
Sorry to be insulting, but you’re a turd. Think about who the most popular baseball player in Boston has been over the past 20 years (and then think about who 2 of the 3 most popular have been over that period while you’re at it) and then go shove it. Thanks.
I don’t think Dombrowski cares one way or the other, but you can’t possibly say that (collectively) Boston sports fans are terribly enlightened with regards to race. The reason that the Adam Jones incident was so resonant was because of Boston’s tortured past with race and sports.
The Red Sox care about as much about skin color as I care about professional air hockey which is not much
Probably not. That stuff probably matters more for journeymen-types than stars.
Cameron said earlier (can’t remember if it was in the intro or the podcast) that while ZiPS is shown here for reference, it’s not the source of the valuation decisions he made.
This, he gets input from front office people. Cameron has access to sources we don’t. That’s it, pretty simple.
Edit: Didn’t read his reply further down, that too.
I also logged in specifically to ask this question. Not an argument for Altuve, but rather a curiosity into the rationale of Goldy over Altuve, pretty much 100% based on what others have said. WAR/$, position, age all point to Altuve.
People trust what they’ve seen before. Athletic 6’3 slugger with terrific all-around game? Very easy to believe he keeps playing at a high level. 5’6 slugging second baseman whose power spiked at the same time the ball may have changed? Harder to know what he’s going to do in the future.
I haven’t talked about this too much in the write-ups, but the ball/whatever has made valuing some of these pop-up hitters a bit tougher. If it’s the ball (most people think its the ball), then the recent power surges could just go away if the ball changes. So there’s more variability with these little guys who are suddenly hitting for power than with established sluggers who were driving the ball even before 2015.
^This times infinity.
What is this list: how you think teams are valuing players, or how you personally value players?
Interesting that you think MLB is going to change the ball back within the next few years. Why would they do that?
Finally, Altuve was already a 5 WAR player before the ball changed and has always been a groundball hitter, esp. this season, where his GB/FB ratio is 1.62. Hardly one of “these pop-up hitters” benefiting disproportionately from the new ball.
Goldschmidt on the other hand has always played in an extreme HR environment — one which will disappear if he gets traded.
Another thought: projection systems have Goldschmidt as a (slightly) better hitter going forward. He’s also a better baserunner, and a better fielder relative to his position. They’ve both been quite healthy in their careers. Altuve’s superior projected WAR seems to be mostly a function of positional adjustment, the specifics of which have been called into question lately. Both these guys are terrific, but if I had a choice of one or the other, absent context I’d take Goldy without much hesitation.
Interesting thought. While reading Dave’s response, I felt the complete opposite- I’d take Altuve (vacuum caveat), mostly because he’s a couple years younger. Fun exercise though, and probably no “wrong answer” when discussing two absolute stars.
Thanks for the thoughtful response! Certainly jives with what myself (and others) had assumed.
I don’t think it’s likely that Benintendi is NOT on this list next year. Cheap, holding his own at young age and offers speed, contact and defense.
I’m not saying a bad month shouldn’t be included as it happened but his May was pretty outlier-ish with a .217 BABIP. His 50 wRC+ for that month makes his overall season look a lot worse.
Month by month he has run 124-114-129-50-129-155 since last year. Small samples for some months but I don’t see any reason he doesn’t settle in the 125 range.
We think there will be 30 players that offer more value and knock him out in a calendar year where we might even see some serious improvement offensively? Scouts universally put a 7 on the bat tool.
I’d be quite surprised indeed.
Dave did not say he is likely not on the list. Take away the value he provides from now until the list next year, and he looks like he probably drops to the last tier that made the list. The bottom tier isn’t that much above the HMs. Looking at the list of guys that dropped off last year, he’s at a spot that likely needs average to good performance relative to what he’s done to stay on the list. I think he is on the list, but likely will only take a bad month or two to drop him off next year’s list.
“I wouldn’t be terribly shocked if he fell off this list next year, in fact.”
You do know that “not terribly shocked” does not mean “likely,” right? If something happens 25% of the time, it happening is not likely, but it is not terribly shocking if it happens.
Benintendi has a career 110 wRC+, his inclusion here is largely based on potential improvements. If he doesn’t improve, he won’t make the list next year.
Tell me more about this “not terribly shocked” vs. “Likely” professor. Enthralling. Truly.
Language contains nuance for just this thing. There’s a reason “newspeak” was a fictional creation and not an actual thing. It’s never cool or impressive to mock people for these kinds of clarifications.
‘You do know that “not terribly shocked” does not mean “likely,” right? If something happens 25% of the time, it happening is not likely, but it is not terribly shocking if it happens.’
When someone says something, anything, they define the precision/ambiguity (whichever is the measure) of what is said, not the reader.
So if “not terribly shocking” equals 25%
if I said “sorta maybe” what percentage does that tally? or how about “in the realm of possibility” what percentage is that one?
Anyone care to take a crack at identifying the top 20 (not in order, of course). Can’t be too difficult, albeit probably arduous to make sure you’ve got all 20.
This is 21 names. I’m surprised Votto wasn’t listed, but now I’m really doubting he is here. I think the first 18 names are certain, and then it is 2 of the last 3, and the other one really should have been at least listed as HM.
1. Carlos Correa
2. Kris Bryant
3. Corey Seager
4. Mike Trout
5. Francisco Lindor
6. Aaron Judge
7. Chris Archer
8. Trea Turner
9. Gary Sanchez
10. Freddie Freeman
11. Anthony Rizzo
12. Jose Ramirez
13. Corey Kluber
14. Mookie Betts
15. Carlos Martinez
16. Buster Posey
17. George Springer
18. Cody Bellinger
19. Marcell Ozuna
20. Wilson Contreras
21. Michael Conforto
These are my best guesses (in order).
M Trout
C Seager
C Correa
K Bryant
A Judge
M Betts
F Lindor
C Bellinger
A Rizzo
C Archer
J Ramirez
A Rendon
G Springer
C Martinez
G Sanchez
T Turner
R Ray
C Kluber
B Posey
J Lamb
I was stuck on maybe Conforto too. I guess I don’t have Freeman like you do, and I’m wondering if I underestimated the value that teams will place on his offensive breakthrough these past couple years and his positive position switch.
Ray, Rendon, and Lamb have already been listed. You also left Freeman off. There’s no way that happens.
Ha, I was looking at a different year’s list when seeing if these players were already there. Dumb.
Why Lindor so far over Ramirez? Ramirez is the better hitter, and while Lindor is better at defense, teams aren’t as likely to value that as much. Plus it’s not like Ramirez isn’t an elite or near-elite defender in his own right. Plus Ramirez has a longer track record in the bigs and is likely to be more affordable in the long term (since he’s on a VERY affordable long term deal and Lindor isn’t). I can see ranking Lindor over him, but not by seven slots.
Age and Prospect Pedigree, would be the explanation, I guess. I don’t find those persuasive, but I think the scouts *might* object to trading for Jose Ramirez, to an extent they wouldn’t for Lindor.
But… dang. It’d be tough for me to put Lindor over Ramirez at all.
Agree Seager over Correa. Same age, similar value this year and historically, both improving in a major area this year (correa iso, seager bb%), but seager has 1 extra controlled year and better defense at the same age (longer until inevitable position change).
Considering seager isn’t even super2 eligibile I think you could argue he should be #1. He’s just been a 7 or 8 win player since the moment he entered mlb without pause or slump.
I think Seager is *thisclose* to becoming Joey Votto. He *kills* the ball: 24% career LD, 43% Hard hit (including 47% marks in 2015 and 2017), 18% HR/FB, and he’s hitting more fly balls every year (2.0 GB/FB in ’15, 1.6 in ’16, and 1.23 in ’17). Statcast backs this up, as he’s got an xWOBA that’s either in the top-5 or top-10.
His %Hard this year is over 50% except for may, when he had the closest thing he’s ever had to a slump for a week.
Joey Votto, Shortstop is sort of a ridiculous proposition.
It’s Conforto and Ozuna.
I don’t think Votto not being here should be seen as surprising (if that is indeed the case). He is owed at least $157M over the next 6 seasons, and will begin that stretch at age 34. That’s a terrify contract for many teams, and for the rest it is one that would need to be carefully budgeted and fit the team’s needs.
There is no doubt teams would love to have Votto, but this limits his trade value. Heck, if he had just three seasons left at the same salary I bet he’d have quite a bit MORE trade value, but that isn’t the case.
I’d bet that Votto would blow past $157 million if he were a free agent. Yes, he’s 34, and that is bad, but there’s a lot of reasons to think he’ll age well, and right now he’s in the argument for best hitter in baseball (non-Trout division). Fangraphs pegs him as about a 5.0 WAR player now. With a normal aging curve (no old age escalations) that would be 19.5 WAR the next six years. I’d bet some teams think he’s a bit better and/or will age better even than that. And of course the most important part of value, the right now, he’s near the top of the list of best overall players in the league. Given the huge increase of the value of a win for many teams at this point in the season, I could see a team evaluating him as having $15-20 million of surplus value in 2017 and another $40-50 million for the rest of his contract.
Can’t wait to see the top of the list!! I think it’s gonna be this:
Correa
Seager
Bryant (could flip these last 2)
Trout
(Big gap)
Lindor
Rizzo
Betts
Judge
Ramirez
Bellinger
I’d move Judge up and Lindor down. Perhaps it’s just recency bias, but I suspect people would weigh their 1st halves pretty strongly.
I’d also move Trout up above the others. Realize I might be in the minority here, but I’ll value having the best player in the game for the next three years more than an extra year of control for Seager/Correa/Bryant and the chance they MIGHT become as good as Trout is already.
NB: I can understand if you’re a small-market team and place a outsized importance on Seager/Correa/Bryant’s artificially suppressed wages, but I’m looking at this from at least an average team’s perspective. And if you widen to think of it including the four teams actually holding the relevant players, only Houston might consider salary determinative if asked to swap.
tl;dr: The Angels could trade Trout for any other player; no one else has that value.
I’ve been a fan of Trout’s since the 2010 Future’s Game and have not been surprised by his stay as #1 on this list for so long. However, I think this is the year he gets bumped and Dave as much as hinted that it would happen in last year’s series. That extra year of control is amplified by higher salaries ($33M) than what the 3 others would get in arbitration.
And then there’s performance. Bryant and Seager went on to nail their WAR projections in 2016 and are on their way to doing the same in 2017. Correa obviously had a hiccup in meeting his 2016 projections but is back on track this year. If all 3 were falling short of projections, it would maybe make a case for Trout retaining the top spot, but this is not the case.
I guess I just think that Dave places too much value on salary. Sure, it’s a bonus factor, but it shouldn’t be as determinative as this list makes it.
Before Trout got injured, he was on pace for a 10-12 WAR season. Correa’s on pace for around 7-9 WAR. (depending on what metric you’re using)
I get the optimism and allure of the unknown, but I firmly believe that maybe we should wait until the guy who’s on pace to arguably be the greatest player in history starts to slow down a little. Or you know, hits his late 20s.
You’re weighting this year too much. I doubt that’s how front offices evaluate players. Though Trout’s consistency puts him #1 for me. The track record is there of course. You know exactly what you’re getting.
“I firmly believe that maybe we should wait until the guy who’s on pace to arguably be the greatest player in history starts to slow down a little. Or you know, hits his late 20s.”
For whatever it’s worth, Dave ranked Pujols #1 in the pre-2006 list, #2 in pre-2007, #5 in 2008 (when he switched to midseason), #4 in 2009, #22 in 2010. Obviously contract isn’t similar to Trout’s, and Albert had Longoria to contend with from 2008, but just in terms of age, Pujols was presumptively 30 when he dropped out of the top 5.
I might try to get Trea Turner in there
I agree on the top 4 and big gap part. But I’d be surprised to see Bellinger in the top 10 with his incredibly short MLB track record. I thought he’d be in he 20s.
I’m very interested to see where Judge ends up. As a Yankee fan (I recognize my inherent bias), I think I’d have him above both Betts and Rizzo based strictly on controllable years (I would not expect Judge to out-WAR Betts over the next, say, 5 years). I’d think the only players I’d be willing to trade him for would be Correa/Seager/Lindor due to position, and Bryant/Trout because of awesomeness.
Again, could be either Yankee fan bias or recency bias (or a combination of the two).
Carson wrote that photo caption and no one can convince me otherwise.
Last year’s rankings and subsequent trade of Sale (#15) for Moncada (#26) and others, was sort of an ideal example of the applicability of this list. The others included in the trade, including fireballer Kopech, made up the difference in trading a higher ranked guy for a lower ranked guy.
Sent a tweet to Dave re: Carlos Carrasco. Both Cot’s and BR show his option years as 2019 and 2020, not 2020 and 2021 as Dave is showing above. A quick google search of articles for when Carrasco signed his contract shows the same thing…the option years are 2019 and 2020. Unless Fangraps knows something that no one else does, I don’t think Carrasco should be ranked quite so high
You were correct, the data in the table here is incorrect. That said, he probably doesn’t fall far; there wasn’t much weight being placed on Carrasco’s age-34 season being under control, given his health issues. The difference between having him for three or four years isn’t that large. If you want to move him down to the mid-30s or something, that’s fine, but it doesn’t dramatically change his value.
In fact, given his health issues, you could even argue that the value of 2019 being a club option instead of guaranteed might be worth more than the club option for 2021. If the salaries in his contract were say 50% higher, that’s exactly what I would argue.
I have to be completely honest, this list has been awful so far.
Where’s the guy who makes the name anagrams after each round?
I sometimes forget how humorless the fangraphs comment section can be.
Dude is making a joke about missing the anagrams guy…and people downvote it? Or are there people who legitimately HATE anagrams?
Poorly constructed joke.
I’m pretty sure they’re downvoting “this list has been awful so far”.
That’s my b. The first and second sentences are intended to be connected in a humorous matter. Guess I didn’t make that clear enough.
Yes. Not as bad as the French to Serbian joke that limped along for five years, but still unfunny.
That John Elway guy thought the French to Serbian bit was aneighzing.
“Guy who hates anagrams” anagrams to “Ham a synagogue’s wrath.”
Dave, I’d like to hear some more detail on why you have McCullers as more valuable than Jon Gray. They are back-to-back on the list, and have the exact same number of years of team control (both set to hit arbitration next season so there are no real $ figures to compare yet). Makes sense that they are very close together, but your description even seems to argue that Gray will be cheaper through arbitration due to the reverse #COORZ effect. Seems to me that Gray is a much more prototypical front of the rotation dominating work-horse type than McCullers and could be seen as a more reliable long-term asset.
I just got back from drinking a bunch of beer with friends after work. So I’m posting a lot. Just FYI, the downvotes are for the fact that one spot doesn’t mean anything in this list. Switch them. It’s fine. You can do it!
I just got back from drinking a bunch of Thrasius with friends after work. So, this is my first post in a while. Just FYI, the upvote is for giving me the chance to fuck with you a little bit.
You’re right, “I” can do it, but Dave Cameron DID NOT do it when he made his list…simply curious as to the reasoning why since it is not apparent from his write-up.
Gray and McCullers are very similar pitchers in that they both have one dominant pitch while everything else they throw is significantly below average. The difference is that McCullers’ dominant pitch is a curveball that he throws 42.8% of the time whereas Gray’s dominant pitch is a slider that he throws 25.3% of the time. It’s hard to imagine a pitcher throwing a true slider (not a cutter that gets classified as a slider) as often as McCullers throws his curveball without having his arm explode.
IDK, Gray’s slider is dominant, but he also has a consistent 96-97+ fastball…hard to call that “significantly below average” even though he can still stand to improve his command.
Gray’s fastball is a perfect illustration of how people overvalue velocity while underrating movement and location. Since 2015, his fastball has been one of the worst in the majors.
I’d take Scherzer, Syndergaard, and Bumgarner over McCullers and Gray. But Syndergaard seems to be the closest comparison due to years of control…it seems like he’s getting dinged harder than McCullers simply because he’s a Met.
Yup. Fangraphs hates the Mets (and Orioles and Red Sox and Reds and…)
…and the Padres (with a passion)
How much do you think it’s reasonable to downgrade Mets pitchers due to the team’s literal decades of ineptitude at keeping them healthy? We can say Fangraphs hates the Mets if we like, but not nearly as much as ligaments do.
No, they’re dinging him because he’s hurt. I don’t think that matters at all, and would put him way over McCullers and (especially) Gray. But I don’t run a front office, and am therefore ineligible to be a source for Dave’s articles (probably better that way, anyway).
Yes, Syndergaard is currently hurt but it’s really his only injury (with the exception of the bone spurs he pitched through last year). McCullers is constantly hurt.
Since they both broke in to the majors in 2015, Syndergaard has made 59 starts and pitched 361 innings at a 2.60 FIP (11 WAR). McCullers has made 52 starts pitched 298 innings at a 3.03 clip (7.5 WAR). And they both have 4 years of arbitration left. Seriously, what is the argument for McCullers over Syndergaard? That McCullers is a year younger? That Syndergaard plays for the Mets? Recency bias?
Also, I just want to say fantastic job yet again Dave. This is my favorite piece on fangraphs all year and that says a lot because I devour the articles on this site.
The criticism of Benintendi seems unwarranted and out of place, especially in a piece that declines to criticize Addison Russell.
Was he not basically ‘off limits’ in talks for Sale and others this past off-season? I might be reading into a small blurb too much (I am) but the level of critique seems premature no?
Well he did rank him higher.
Isn’t it a wee bit silly to try to guess at Benintendi’s eventual power (or lack thereof) at this stage? He was draft all of around 765 days ago today – think about that for a second. He had a short college career (and was fairly young for a college draftee), a short run through the minors, and so far has less than a calendar year of MLB time. It’s a mighty-small sample size, and even if Benintendi isn’t going to change much physically it’s difficult to imagine that he won’t learn a thing or two over the next few years and potentially improve from that knowledge.
It’s very fair to wonder what he will become, but saying you’re “skeptical” of his upside seems a bit strong to me. I think we need another couple of years before we can really take a stab at that one.
(Case in point: comparing him to Yelich, including with his power situation. Yelich entered the Majors at basically the same age as Benintendi, but had 2.5 minor league seasons to Benintendi’s 1 leading up to that debut, and Yelich proceeded to hit 9 and 7 HRs in his first two full seasons before more power arrived. Benintendi is clearly on a different developmental path, so relating them at this stage is premature)
I had a problem with Benintendi being down as far as he is. Since I first saw him I could not stop thinking that I was watching the second coming of Yaz. Despite being of similar stature, he will hit with surprising power, play great defense and be the next in the line of great Red Sox left fielders.
Yelich is a much larger player with a broad frame whose limiting factor was his launch angle. The reality is that short, thin players typically don’t hit for much power. Frankly, I’m surprised that he’s hit as many home runs as he has this season.
I mean, we don’t have any problem believing that Benintendi’s 5’9″/180# outfield mate, Mookie Betts, is a perennial 25-30 HR threat… Size matters, but it’s not everything.
There are exceptions to every rule, but it is a fact that home runs have a significant correlation with height and with weight.
Sure, big guys tend to be the ones who produce the most power, consistently, but why can’t Benintendi be an exception like Betts or Altuve? He makes great contact, controls the zone, and he’s had a FB bias throughout his MiLB and MLB career. These days, you don’t need to be built like Eric Thames to put 20-25 over the fence if you’re lofting the ball 40%+ of the time.
He might be, but the point is that the odds are against it due to his build. And remember that the recent ball-inflated power could go away at any time if they return the seams to their previous height.
He could regress with power like Markakis. Although I guess that was a back issue.
Yeah, I recall you were higher on Moncada and Devers than Benintendi in the Red Sox prospect list last year due to the upside issue. I like benintendi a lot, but it’s funny looking back how much higher he was than Judge on overall lists. Of course, Judge had the K track record. But even Eric gave him 70 grade raw power (as opposed to game power). If that guy isn’t an 80 raw power I don’t know who is. I had Benintendi higher, too, of course. Judge kind of exploded.
I definitely underestimated Benintendi back then. After Dan’s write-up I made a point of seeing him in person and immediately became a huge fan. But I still don’t see a lot of power potential, although he has pretty much everything else.
Gray at #30 doesn’t look right at all. I understand that his FIP has been substantially better than his ERA, but the same was consistently true for him in the minor leagues. The reason for that is probably that his success or failure depends on what pitch he’s throwing. When he throws the slider, he excels, but when he throws anything else he struggles. Despite the strong fastball velocity, it has been one of the least valuable fastballs among starting pitchers over the last two and a half seasons. Through the admittedly small sample of 117.1 major league innings on the road, his ERA is 4.53 and his xFIP is 3.89. You’re giving him a lot of extra credit for pitching at Coors that isn’t justified by his road numbers.
I’m 100% on board with this. Gray is a truly amazing pitcher when he’s on, but he’s very inconsistent. I think this is a case of prospect pedigree (and love of super-big fastballs) messing with our heads. Anyone buying him is going to be buying on potential and dreaming of what he could be if he puts it all together. I don’t know if he’s the second coming of Syndergaard, but GMs seem to think that he’s got a much closer chance of getting there than his record has shown so far.
Then again over 2016 and 2017 in 94.2 innings at Coors he has a 4.09 e.r.a. (pretty good there), 3.23 xFIP, 9.5/2.1 K/bb, 25.3% k rate 5.6% bb rate, 1 HR/9, .240/.296/.383 triple slash allowed (so contact management at home seems fine), and .293 wOBA allowed. Some of his road struggles could be typical road struggles, exacerbated by the extreme environment swings. If he gets dinged for his road performance he should get credit for his excellent performance in Coors. He’s good and has a high ceiling. I think he’s ranked about right.
To think that “he’s ranked about right,” you have to believe that his major and minor league results so far are not indicative of his performance, because his actual results don’t justify including Gray on this top 50 list at all. That’s why we have FIP and xFIP, to suggest the places where ERA might be misleading us. The problem with Gray is that his ERA has been very consistently worse than his FIP and xFIP, so at some point you have to doubt that his actual on-field results have been unlucky. To justify that doubt, you have to come up with a reason why his ERA might be consistently worse than his FIP and xFIP, which I believe his reliance on that slider does explain. Gray has one truly elite pitch, and it gets used inordinately often in strikeout situations, which makes his peripherals look impressive. The problem is that he stinks when he’s throwing anything but the slider, and that could reasonably explain why his ERA is consistently worse than we would expect based on those peripherals.
He has a 3.65 minor league era, pitching in Albuquerque, which has a park factor for runs and homers of about 1.4 1.5 in the notorious PCL, and Lancaster, also a hitter haven in the inflationary Cal League. He’s not been dominant results wise but there’s little to suggest he’s some kind of xFIP illusion. Scherzer early on had similar xFIP/era dichotomy. Not saying he’ll be that good, but I like to bet on Pineda/Robbie Ray breakouts.
His career ERA at Albuquerque sits at 4.15 if you include his two rehab starts there this season, or 4.33 if you just want to look at his performance there before reaching the majors. At almost every stop in the minors his ERA was worse than his FIP, and I believe the huge disparity between his slider and everything else he throws is the reason why.
I respect your opinion Dave, but I would be pretty shocked if Benintendi fell on this list next year. His walk and k rates are really strong, and judging by his minor league k rates I think there is clearly more room to grow in the k department. Speed, CF defense, and age are also clear pros.
You mention he hasn’t hit the ball all that hard, but the Statcast data says his average exit velocity is higher than Bryant’s and Blackmon’s and not all that different from Votto’s or Dickerson’s. He’s down on the list but so are some very high quality batted ball guys. Meanwhile the batted ball data on Fangraphs (not sure where that comes from) gives him a very high hard hit rate (37.7%) and low soft hit rate (16.3%) this season. Furthermore, I don’t see much reason to doubt his power. He posted ISOs over 200 at every minor league stop and showed great power in college. This year he’s shown good power in every month outside of May. And about May: his walk and k rates were an amazing 11.3% and 13.9% yet he had a horrible month because he ran a .217 babip. Take out May or give him a normal babip in May and he looks incredible.
I am gonna say it’s more likely he’ll climb the list next year. But again, I respect your opinion. Love these lists.
Also, just to strengthen my argument a bit: the Statcast data says Benintendi’s average home run distance is 406 ft. That’s higher than Goldschmidt, Khris Davis, Machado, Trumbo, Springer, Votto, Dickerson, and Bryant. Giancarlo Stanton is at 408 ft. I think he definitely has some pop.
It simply blows my mind that Chris Sale is this low on the list. How much value does a likely Cy Young winner and lockdown ace making mid-rotation money for the next few years have? He was always good in Chicago, but *this* is incredible, especially since Fenway is rough on lefties…I wouldn’t be surprised if his stock is way higher now than when he was traded. I kind of feel like when we’re talking at the very top players in the league (Trout, Bryant, and as of now Sale too) that teams are willing to pay ungodly sums of prospects, no matter that he only has 2.5 years of control left and makes over 10 million a year.
I know that the Top 20 is likely all guys who haven’t hit their payday yet and have many years of control, but Sale’s “payday” is still less than a many of these guys are going to make in arbitration, and he’s turning in one of the greatest pitching performances ever right now. That’s really valuable.
I agree that Sale should be slightly higher, but he has only two more seasons of team control after this one. Or put another way, he has one more year than Machado or Harper, who were left off of the list entirely. I think Dave is penalizing these players too harshly, but at least he’s being consistent.