2017 Trade Value: #1 to #10

(Photo: Arturo Pardavila III)
Welcome to the final installment of this year’s Trade Value series; you can find links to the previous five posts above. If you’re not familiar with this project, there’s an explanation of the process in the HM post, so that’s the best place to start.
As a reminder for those who don’t like clicking links, however, the five-year WAR projections are based on Dan Szymborski’s ZiPS forecasts, though the players aren’t ranked based on those projections; these figures are included merely as a piece of information to help round out the picture. The guaranteed-dollars line measures the amount of money the player is owed outside of team options or arbitration years; for most of these guys, team options are very likely to be exercised, and many of them will end up making more than the guaranteed-dollars number reports.
Now let’s turn our attention to today’s top 10. In reality, this ended up being two groups of five, with plenty of room for movement within those two groups. And at the very top of the list was the toughest call I’ve ever had to make in putting this project together. The amount of great young talent in the game right now is simply remarkable.
Just as a note: I’ll be chatting about this list at 12 p.m. ET, so if you have any questions, feel free to swing by and I’ll answer as many as I can. Now, on to the top 10.
| Team Control WAR Total | +19.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $23.5 M |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #18 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 32 | +5.4 | $10.5 M |
| 2019 | 33 | +5.0 | $13.0 M |
| 2020 | 34 | +4.5 | $13.5 M |
| 2021 | 35 | +4.5 | $14.0 M |
Corey Kluber was already amazing. He might actually be getting better, though. His strikeout rate has jumped from 26% to 34%. His ground-ball rate is at a career high, but so is his infield-fly rate. He still throttles contact quality. With the way he’s pitching now, he’s in that next tier of non-Kershaw starters. He’s everything you want in an ace.
And, thanks to his contract, he’s the most valuable hurler in the game. Assuming his options get picked up — he’d basically need a career-ending injury not to merit those salaries — he’ll make around $50 million over the next four years. There are some non-public escalators on the options based on Cy Young voting, so it might be more like $55 million.
That’s Josh Reddick money. It’s Mark Trumbo’s AAV, plus an extra year. Fifty million dollars doesn’t buy that much in free agency these days, but it does get Cleveland the best right-handed pitcher in the AL — and with reduced risk in case an injury takes Kluber out before the deal expires.
As with any pitcher, he could lose all of his value overnight. At 31, he might start getting worse soon. There’s a reason the nine guys ahead of him are all hitters. Those guys just don’t get hurt at the same frequency, so it’s tough for a pitcher to get much higher than this. But given what Kluber is now, he’s the pitcher I’d most want in my organization.
| Team Control WAR Total | +17.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | #7 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 25 | +6.0 | Arb1 |
| 2019 | 26 | +5.8 | Arb2 |
| 2020 | 27 | +5.6 | Arb3 |
It’s getting harder to remember, but just a few years ago, Mookie Betts was a pretty polarizing player. The slight stature and lack of power didn’t scream superstar upside, but Mookie has developed into a better player than even his most ardent supporters would have suspected. Now coming off an +8 WAR season, Betts is firmly entrenched as one of the game’s best.
And as pitchers adjust to Mookie as an offensive threat, he continues to evolve, gradually returning to a more patient approach after spending the last few years swinging more frequently to establish that he did, indeed, have power. Now with more walks than strikeouts, but still slugging the ball, Betts has built the offensive profile of a guy who can remain a great player even if the defense slips as he ages.
The one remaining flaw at this point is his pop-up problem. His total of 22 infield flies leads the majors, and it’s the primary reason he’s running a .261 BABIP; all those easy outs have dragged down his offensive numbers this year. Given that Betts has fixed nearly every other flaw in his game to this point, I wouldn’t be shocked if he figured out how to address this one, too.
He only falls a few spots this year because he’s marching towards free agency. After rebuffing an attempt by the Red Sox to get him signed to a long-term deal this winter, Betts has just his three arbitration years left, and he sounds like a guy willing to go year-to-year in order to get to free agency as early as possible. He’s still a guy every team in baseball would love to have, but he doesn’t look like a guy anyone could count on keeping past the 2020 season, so it’s more short- and medium-term value than long-term value. But few players in baseball will provide more value over the next three-and-a-half years, and the bidding for Betts would be bananas if the Red Sox were willing to listen on their star right fielder.
| Team Control WAR Total | +21.1 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $19.0 M |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #6 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 28 | +5.7 | $7.0 M |
| 2019 | 29 | +5.4 | $12.0 M |
| 2020 | 30 | +5.0 | $16.5 M |
| 2021 | 31 | +5.0 | $16.5 M |
I don’t know that it’s possible for a Cub to be underrated at this point. But if any Cub is underrated, it’s Anthony Rizzo. Kris Bryant has the MVP award, Kyle Schwarber the postseason hero narrative, and David Ross got all the fuzzy veteran-leader credit anyone could ever be awarded. But make no mistake: Rizzo is an elite player.
Over the last three years, Rizzo has put up seasonal WARs of +5.7, +5.5, +5.5. He’s on pace for a down year of +4.6 WAR this year, thanks to a .242 BABIP. Assuming that bounces up some in the second half, he may still end up over +5 WAR for the fourth straight year. There are few players as consistently awesome as Anthony Rizzo.
Sure, maybe he’s not hitting like Freddie Freeman has over the last year, and he doesn’t have quite the all-around game of Paul Goldschmidt, but when you factor in contracts, Rizzo is the most valuable first baseman in the game. Due just $52 million over the next four years, he and Kluber are basically playing out the same contract, just he doesn’t have the risks that come with pitching for a living. As safe a bet as you’ll get for high-level production at a low cost, Rizzo is one of the main reasons the Cubs’ future still scares everyone.
| Five-Year WAR | +21.6 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2022 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 25 | +4.4 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 26 | +4.4 | Arb1 |
| 2020 | 27 | +4.3 | Arb2 |
| 2021 | 28 | +4.3 | Arb3 |
| 2022 | 29 | +4.2 | Arb4 |
It really is remarkable that Turner managed to put up +5 WAR in his first year’s worth of games in the majors, given that he spent about half that time playing a position at which he had almost no experience and still isn’t really a finished product as a hitter. This is what unpolished Trea Turner looks like. It’s scary to imagine what he might be if he gets better.
Of course, his physical skills might diminish before he figures out the strike zone, and maybe the power never grows, and there’s no guarantee he’ll get better defensively. Improvement is never guaranteed. But baseline Turner is already an excellent player, and yet there are obvious areas where he could make real improvements. It doesn’t seem completely preposterous to suggest that, on pure upside, Turner might have one of the highest ceilings in the game.
The fact that there are so many rough edges to his game mean that there’s more risk here than with almost any of the other players in this top 10, but value is a balance of risk and reward, and Turner’s optimistic outcomes are so good that it makes the downside worthwhile. And with five years of control after this season, there’s plenty of remaining long-term value. If he takes any more steps forward over the next year, he’ll be a legitimate challenger for one of the top spots on next year’s list.
| Five-Year WAR | +20.9 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2022 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 26 | +4.2 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 27 | +4.1 | Pre-Arb |
| 2020 | 28 | +4.3 | Arb1 |
| 2021 | 29 | +4.3 | Arb2 |
| 2022 | 30 | +4.0 | Arb3 |
On the one hand, it’s half a season, and no one saw this coming. Consider, for example, what passed for an optimistic scouting report on the Yankees’ right fielder, from Eric Longenhagen’s offseason prospect list for the Yankees, on which Judge was ranked fifth:
While strikeouts are likely to be a career-long aspect of Judge’s profile, he’s shown an ability to make adjustments, and the quality of his contact is great when he’s making it. I have a future 50 on the hit tool and think he’ll get to his power in games, torching out 30 homers at peak with good defense in right field and some value on the bases. He projects as a low-risk, above-average regular.
This was Eric conveying that he was higher on Judge than many others; he ranked the Fresno State product 29 spots higher than Baseball America did on their top-100 list, for instance. And yet, “30 homers at peak” was still part of the report written by a guy who liked Judge more than most.
Judge, of course, hit 30 homers in the first half of his rookie year. Given his size and how hard he hits the baseball, it doesn’t seem crazy to project him for 40-plus homers annually. It’s hard to reconcile the guy we’ve seen in New York this year with the guy the scouting reports suggested, and any time there’s this kind of divergence between what people have seen previously and what we’ve seen in a short sample, it’s wise to not rely solely on what we’ve seen.
But what we’ve seen is so spectacular that I can’t imagine Judge ranking any lower than this. He legitimately looks like a guy who might already be one of the best right fielders in baseball and could become the most recognizable player in the sport. For most fans, the game is the attraction, but Judge looks like the rare athlete who could legitimately change the level of interest in his team by himself. We haven’t really seen anything like him before.
If he were a few years younger, or if we had more than three months of this kind of dominance, he might rank No. 1. And long term, his size might become a durability issue: big guys have generally had health problems in MLB, and Judge is about the biggest big guy we’ve seen. But that is nitpicking. Right now, Judge looks like he’s redefined what 80 power in the majors actually is. Combined with his other skills, there’s legitimate superstar potential here. And he might have already reached it.
| Team Control WAR Total | +24.0 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #5 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 24 | +5.8 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 25 | +5.8 | Arb1 |
| 2020 | 26 | +6.2 | Arb2 |
| 2021 | 27 | +6.2 | Arb3 |
For the last couple of months, Lindor hasn’t been very good. Since the beginning of May, he’s hit .231/.285/.388, good for a 75 wRC+, in nearly 300 plate appearances. That’s a long slump, and I understand why his recent performance might cause one to rethink his overall value.
But just as it’s important to remember what we thought of Aaron Judge a few months ago, it’s important to look at the whole picture with Lindor, and what we have overall is a 23-year-old shortstop who has already produced nearly +13 WAR in just over two full seasons worth of action. Despite his recent struggles, Lindor remains a spectacularly talented player.
Selling out for power hasn’t worked for him this year, but if it keeps not working, we should expect that at some point he’ll revert back to his prior approach, taking his line drives and high average instead of trying to maximize his home-run total. And that version of Lindor, combined with his elite defense and quality baserunning, was one of the best all-around players in the game.
He probably won’t ever be the best-hitting shortstop in the game, but few can match Lindor’s overall value, especially players this age. Even with a rough couple of months, Lindor remains one of baseball’s brightest young stars, and Cleveland will happily keep him for at least the next four years.
| Team Control WAR Total | +23.8 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #3 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 26 | +6.0 | Arb1 |
| 2019 | 27 | +5.9 | Arb2 |
| 2020 | 28 | +5.9 | Arb3 |
| 2021 | 29 | +5.9 | Arb4 |
A couple of years ago, Bryant looked fairly similar to Judge: a high-K/high-power guy who was more athletic than most players with similar offensive profiles and who provided a lot of value with his overall game. But just two years into his big-league career, he’s all but gotten rid of his primary flaw, as he’s now striking out less often than the average hitter. Whether this change helped him stave off an inevitable BABIP regression, or was the cause of the one that has come, isn’t something we can know for sure, but Bryant’s offensive profile looks more sustainable now than it did during his rookie season.
The only things holding down his trade value are his future costs. He already set the record for single year pre-arbitration salary, and if he goes through the arbitration system year to year, he’ll likely smash some more records. With Rookie of the Year and MVP awards already in his trophy case, he can make the same “special case” arguments that helped Tim Lincecum and Ryan Howard reset the arbitration baselines, and as a Super Two, he’s going to get four chances at record raises. If he keeps playing at a high level, it’s entirely possible he could be making $30 million by the time he finishes with arbitration.
Whatever he gets through arbitration, he’ll be worth more than that, since the system is designed to be a drag on young-player salaries. But Bryant is probably going to be the most expensive of these young guys who haven’t signed long-term extensions yet. And considering his signing bonus and how well he’s set up for arbitration, there isn’t much incentive for him to sign a long-term deal that gives up any free-agent years.
But it’s still four years of one of the very best players in baseball. Even if he’s expensive by relative standards, everyone would happily line up to be the one cutting that check.
| Team Control WAR Total | +22.2 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #4 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 24 | +5.4 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 25 | +5.5 | Arb1 |
| 2020 | 26 | +5.7 | Arb2 |
| 2021 | 27 | +5.7 | Arb3 |
This is where it got particularly difficult. The differences between the top three are absurdly small. You can’t go wrong with any of these guys. There is no wrong order here; it just comes down to preference.
And Corey Seager is unquestionably awesome. If this was a what-they’ve-done-so-far exercise, Seager might be No. 1. He’s put up over +12 WAR in less than two season’s worth of playing time and he’s 23. I know, based on the conversation considering last year’s ranking, that a lot of you guys think he belongs at the top of the list — or, at least, at the top of the young-guy tier.
But once again, when I ran this by my friends in the game, the general consensus was that Seager is just a tick behind the two guys ahead of him. The bat is special, but he’s probably the least physically athletic guy in the top five, and there remains skepticism about his actual value at shortstop. While the public defensive metrics like his work at shortstop, more than one person pointed out that the Dodgers pitching staff induces the weakest contact of any group in the game, and suggested that our models are attributing to Seager some value that actually belongs to the Dodgers’ pitchers.
Everyone agrees Seager is a legitimate franchise player, but there remains some thought that he’s more of a super-high-floor guy and doesn’t quite possess the upside of the two guys ahead of him on this list. And for whatever it’s worth, ZiPS is in agreement with the industry on this one. Seager is a fantastic player, but enough people think this is close enough to his peak that he only rises one spot on this year’s list, despite performing well enough to move higher. If he continues to prove the skeptics wrong for another 12 months, he’ll certainly be considered for the top spot again next year.
| Team Control WAR Total | +25.7 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $99.8 M |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | #1 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 26 | +9.0 | $33.3 M |
| 2019 | 27 | +8.5 | $33.3 M |
| 2020 | 28 | +8.2 | $33.3 M |
Yeah, it finally happened. For the first time since 2011, Mike Trout is not atop this list. Or, to put it another way, the last time Trout wasn’t No. 1 in this series, he was in Double-A.
He remains, of course, the best player in baseball, and not by a small margin. He impacts the game like no one else. He has at least a chance to go down as the best baseball player of all-time.
But as we are regularly reminded when we see All-Stars traded for guys in A-ball, trade value is more complex than a player’s present abilities. Age matters. Salary matters. Years of control matter. And while Mike Trout is the best player on the planet, he’s also due $100 million over the next three years, and then he’ll hit free agency looking for the kind of contract that only a few teams will even be willing to consider.
Realistically, it’s hard for anyone to see Trout as a long-term asset anymore. You get three-and-a-half historic seasons, and then you probably watch him leave. And since the teams that could afford to give up the kind of talent it would take to get him are all luxury-tax payers who have been over the limit for years, they’d end up paying something closer to $50 million per year to have him on their rosters, or else they’d be looking at dumping another quality player to reduce their luxury-tax payments.
Even with all that, he was still almost No. 1. This was nearly a coin flip. I’m sure a good chunk of the people reading this, including people who actually would have to make a decision like this, would just say “I’ll take the best player alive and worry about the rest later.” And I almost would, too.
But there’s a new kid in town with whom everyone is also in love, and is in the midst of a Trout-like season of his own, and fits in every team in baseball’s payroll. So, with all due respect to the greatest all-around player I’ve ever seen, the new King of Trade Value is…
| Team Control WAR Total | +25.1 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #2 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 23 | +5.3 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 24 | +6.4 | Arb1 |
| 2020 | 25 | +6.7 | Arb2 |
| 2021 | 26 | +6.7 | Arb3 |
The A-Rod comparisons are unfair, but with what Correa is doing this year, they also don’t look completely insane. In his age-20 to -22 seasons, Rodriguez posted a 138 wRC+; Correa currently stands at 135. The breakout that everyone’s been expecting looks like it is here, and with his 161 wRC+ so far this season, Correa has officially become a superstar.
Now, before we say too much, I should note that those ZiPS projections aren’t as rosy as they were a year ago, when the system was forecasting Correa to surpass Trout as the best player in baseball in a few years. Dan Szymborski made some adjustments to his model over the winter, and the result was a bit more conservative forecasts for elite young players — Seager’s projections are also worse this year than last year — so Correa is no longer expected to quite reach Trout’s level.
But a +7 WAR forecast is still pretty amazing and speaks to the rarity of Correa’s offensive abilities at this age. His power development has made him an elite hitter for any position, but he’s also improved enough defensively that no one is talking about moving him off shortstop anymore. So for the foreseeable future, the Astros have a guy who hits like a first baseman playing shortstop.
The industry adores Correa. As I noted last year, when I polled people in the game on the Correa-versus-Seager question, the answers overwhelmingly come down in Correa’s favor. The same was true this year. Correa’s monster first half isn’t seen as just a nice stretch; people have been expecting this to happen. This is what people thought was coming. No one is surprised that Correa has turned into one of the best hitters in the American League, even though he’s still just 22.
And, of course, there’s the contract. Even with generous arbitration estimates, he’s probably looking at something in the $40 to $45 million range over the next four years. So not only does he provide an extra year that Trout does not, he also gives you roughly $60 million to spend on someone else. And because he hasn’t yet landed that made-for-life contract, an acquiring team have a few years to talk him into signing a deal that buys out some free-agent seasons, potentially giving them some longer-term value as well.
So, by the slimmest of margins, Carlos Correa is our new most valuable player in baseball when contracts are included in the discussion. There’s a reason the Astros are so good right now. Their shortstop is the biggest one.
| Rk | Pv | Player | Age | 2018 | 2019 | 2020 | 2021 | 2022 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 2 | Carlos Correa | 22 | +5.3 Pre-Arb |
+6.4 Arb1 |
+6.7 Arb2 |
+6.7 Arb3 |
|
| 2 | 1 | Mike Trout | 25 | +9.0 $33.3 M |
+8.5 $33.3 M |
+8.2 $33.3 M |
||
| 3 | 4 | Corey Seager | 23 | +5.4 Pre-Arb |
+5.5 Arb1 |
+5.7 Arb2 |
+5.7 Arb3 |
|
| 4 | 3 | Kris Bryant | 25 | +6.0 Arb1 |
+5.9 Arb2 |
+5.9 Arb3 |
+5.9 Arb4 |
|
| 5 | 5 | Francisco Lindor | 23 | +5.8 Pre-Arb |
+5.8 Arb1 |
+6.2 Arb2 |
+6.2 Arb3 |
|
| 6 | – | Aaron Judge | 25 | +4.2 Pre-Arb |
+4.1 Pre-Arb |
+4.3 Arb1 |
+4.3 Arb2 |
+4.0 Arb3 |
| 7 | – | Trea Turner | 24 | +4.4 Pre-Arb |
+4.4 Arb1 |
+4.3 Arb2 |
+4.3 Arb3 |
+4.2 Arb4 |
| 8 | 6 | Anthony Rizzo | 27 | +5.7 $7.0 M |
+5.4 $12.0 M |
+5.0 $16.5 M |
+5.0 $16.5 M |
|
| 9 | 7 | Mookie Betts | 24 | +6.0 Arb1 |
+5.8 Arb2 |
+5.6 Arb3 |
||
| 10 | 18 | Corey Kluber | 31 | +5.4 $10.5 M |
+5.0 $13.0 M |
+4.5 $13.5 M |
+4.5 $14.0 M |
|
| 11 | – | Cody Bellinger | 21 | +2.3 Pre-Arb |
+3.3 Pre-Arb |
+4.4 Arb1 |
+4.4 Arb2 |
+4.6 Arb3 |
| 12 | – | Gary Sanchez | 24 | +4.0 Pre-Arb |
+4.1 Pre-Arb |
+4.4 Arb1 |
+4.4 Arb2 |
+4.5 Arb3 |
| 13 | 50 | Carlos Martinez | 25 | +4.2 $11.5 M |
+4.3 $11.5 M |
+4.4 $11.5 M |
+4.4 $11.5 M |
+3.9 $17.5 M |
| 14 | – | Freddie Freeman | 27 | +4.5 $21.0 M |
+4.4 $21.0 M |
+4.3 $22.0 M |
+4.3 $22.0 M |
|
| 15 | – | Jose Ramirez | 24 | +3.8 $2.4 M |
+3.8 $3.8 M |
+3.9 $6.2 M |
+3.9 $9.0 M |
+4.1 $11.0 M |
| 16 | 21 | Chris Archer | 28 | +4.1 $6.3 M |
+3.9 $7.5 M |
+3.8 $9.0 M |
+3.8 $11.0 M |
|
| 17 | 19 | Buster Posey | 30 | +5.1 $21.4 M |
+4.6 $21.4 M |
+4.1 $21.4 M |
+4.1 $21.4 M |
+3.5 $22.0 M |
| 18 | 30 | George Springer | 27 | +3.5 Arb2 |
+3.4 Arb3 |
+3.2 Arb4 |
||
| 19 | – | Willson Contreras | 25 | +3.2 Pre-Arb |
+3.3 Pre-Arb |
+3.2 Arb1 |
+3.2 Arb2 |
+3.0 Arb3 |
| 20 | – | Michael Conforto | 24 | +3.8 Pre-Arb |
+3.6 Arb1 |
+3.7 Arb2 |
+3.7 Arb3 |
|
| 21 | 15 | Chris Sale | 28 | +6.1 $12.5 M |
+6.2 $15.0 M |
|||
| 22 | – | Michael Fulmer | 24 | +3.7 Pre-Arb |
+3.9 Arb1 |
+4.1 Arb2 |
+4.1 Arb3 |
+3.7 Arb4 |
| 23 | 9 | Paul Goldschmidt | 29 | +4.8 $11.0 M |
+4.6 $14.5 M |
|||
| 24 | 13 | Jose Altuve | 27 | +5.8 $6.0 M |
+5.1 $6.5 M |
|||
| 25 | 32 | Miguel Sano | 24 | +2.9 Pre-Arb |
+3.0 Arb1 |
+3.0 Arb2 |
+3.0 Arb3 |
|
| 26 | 38 | Andrew Benintendi | 22 | +2.2 Pre-Arb |
+2.9 Pre-Arb |
+3.1 Arb1 |
+3.1 Arb2 |
+3.1 Arb3 |
| 27 | 23 | Christian Yelich | 25 | +3.6 $7.0 M |
+3.5 $9.8 M |
+3.5 $12.5 M |
+3.5 $14.0 M |
+3.2 $15.0 M |
| 28 | 27 | Carlos Carrasco | 30 | +3.7 $8.0 M |
+3.4 $9.0 M |
+3.2 $9.5 M |
||
| 29 | 40 | Lance McCullers | 23 | +3.0 Arb1 |
+3.2 Arb2 |
+3.3 Arb3 |
+3.3 Arb4 |
|
| 30 | 49 | Jon Gray | 25 | +3.2 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Arb1 |
+3.6 Arb2 |
+3.6 Arb3 |
|
| 31 | 8 | Nolan Arenado | 26 | +4.9 $17.8 M |
+5.0 Arb4 |
|||
| 32 | 16 | Madison Bumgarner | 27 | +5.2 $12.0 M |
+5.2 $12.0 M |
|||
| 33 | – | Max Scherzer | 32 | +5.5 $15.0 M |
+5.1 $35.0 M |
+4.6 $35.0 M |
+4.6 $35.0 M |
|
| 34 | 12 | Noah Syndergaard | 24 | +4.7 Arb1 |
+4.9 Arb2 |
+5.0 Arb3 |
+5.0 Arb4 |
|
| 35 | – | Luis Severino | 23 | +2.5 Pre-Arb |
+2.9 Arb1 |
+3.1 Arb2 |
+3.1 Arb3 |
+2.8 Arb4 |
| 36 | – | Jameson Taillon | 25 | +2.2 Pre-Arb |
+2.4 Pre-Arb |
+2.3 Arb1 |
+2.3 Arb2 |
+2.2 Arb3 |
| 37 | 22 | Jacob deGrom | 29 | +3.2 Arb2 |
+3.0 Arb3 |
+2.8 Arb4 |
||
| 38 | 37 | Alex Bregman | 23 | +3.5 Pre-Arb |
+3.8 Pre-Arb |
+3.8 Arb1 |
+3.8 Arb2 |
+4.0 Arb3 |
| 39 | – | Ender Inciarte | 26 | +3.7 $4.0 M |
+3.5 $5.0 M |
+3.4 $7.0 M |
+3.4 $8.0 M |
+3.3 $9.0 M |
| 40 | 31 | Addison Russell | 23 | +4.2 Arb1 |
+4.6 Arb2 |
+4.5 Arb3 |
+4.5 Arb4 |
|
| 41 | 26 | Yoan Moncada | 22 | +2.2 Pre-Arb |
+3.1 Pre-Arb |
+3.6 Pre-Arb |
+3.6 Arb1 |
+3.8 Arb2 |
| 42 | 25 | Jose Quintana | 28 | +3.8 $8.8 M |
+3.8 $10.5 M |
+3.6 $10.5 M |
||
| 43 | – | Robbie Ray | 25 | +3.4 Arb1 |
+3.5 Arb2 |
+3.7 Arb3 |
||
| 44 | – | Anthony Rendon | 27 | +4.4 Arb3 |
+4.2 Arb4 |
|||
| 45 | 20 | Xander Bogaerts | 24 | +3.8 Arb2 |
+3.6 Arb3 |
|||
| 46 | 28 | Jackie Bradley Jr. | 27 | +3.2 Arb2 |
+2.9 Arb3 |
+2.8 Arb4 |
||
| 47 | – | Marcus Stroman | 26 | +2.2 Arb2 |
+2.5 Arb3 |
+2.5 Arb4 |
||
| 48 | – | James Paxton | 28 | +2.8 Arb2 |
+2.9 Arb3 |
+2.8 Arb4 |
||
| 49 | – | Aaron Nola | 24 | +2.9 Pre-Arb |
+3.2 Arb1 |
+3.3 Arb2 |
+3.0 Arb3 |
|
| 50 | 47 | Jake Lamb | 26 | +2.6 Arb1 |
+2.7 Arb2 |
+2.6 Arb3 |
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
Wow! ZiPS forecasting full-season WAR projections for Judge substantially lower than what he has done in a *half* season. I know, regression analysis and all, but at some point doesn’t it become tempting to say “ZiPS is too slow to adjust”?
EDIT: Dave–great work as always. These are great every year.
Judge is running a 426 BABIP. If you look at the past 5 years nobody has really been above 365. So the BA is going to come down since he’s unlikely to post 400+ BABIPs. And his 362 ISO is a bit high as well. Over the past 5 years (2012-2016) Stanton is the ISO leader at 277. So even if Judge is the best power hitter in the game, I’m not willing to believe that he’s nearly 100 points of ISO better than Stanton.
So there’s going to be some regression, as you suggest. Likely 40-60 points of BA, and likely 60-80 points of ISO at minimum. That’s probably why the ZIPS projections are lower than you’d expect.
ZIPS has his rest of season line at 261/351/543, which is a deeper regression than I suggested, but it does make some sense why he’s rated like that.
I buy most of what you’re saying but, as you note, ZiPS forecasts substantially *depeer* regression. What i’m saying, is, “why are we defaulting to ZiPS?” It just looks like ZiPS is way too slow to respond in this instance.
If we were “defaulting to Zips,” then Trea Turner and Anthony Rizzo would be ahead of him, right? Dave said that Zips is listed here for reference. It’s the only long-term projection system that FG has access to, so it is here for your convenience. Zips seems like a better thing to put here than just pulling something out of thin air.
The main reason Zips is listed here I think is that it’s one of the only forecasting systems that actually tries to project guys 5 years out.
Not sure I understand the rizzo comparison. Radically different contract/control situation.
The Turner one is interesting though! The WAR projections are very similar, but Judge has one more pre-arb year. It looks to me like that one extra year nudged Judge over Turner. But are they really that close? Turner’s projected WAR actually matches what we are seeing now. Judge’s projection says he’s aboout 40-45% of what we are seeing now. How can that difference be justified ?
Or maybe we’re all a little biased because Judge has looked amazing, and ZIPS is a splash of cold water telling us that while he’s still an All Star calibre player, he’s not the best player in the game going forward. We’ll find out if this is the case or not but I don’t think this is a case of ZIPS being slow to respond, but rather us overestimating Judge’s abilities based on what he’s done in a 3 month sample.
I have no skin in the game, but the fact that the OP is being down voted for asking questions about baseball on a baseball website makes you all a buncha cocks.
deleted
Depends on what you think a downthumb means. Is it “disagree” or “doesn’t add to the discussion”? People have different opinions. Though I suspect a few of the downthumbers here didn’t solidly consider either option and went with groupthink.
Agreed. At this point, we have no idea what Judge will be going forward.
In the first half of his rookie season, Mark McGwire put up a Judge-like triple slash line: .294/.383/.692.
But the second half he was down to: .284/.355/.537
And over the next 5 years he averaged only: .239/.355/.480.
It’s not that McGwire turned into a complete pumpkin. But he also wasn’t anywhere close to what he did those first three months.
McGwire is actually one of the best comparisons out there for him. I am pretty certain everyone would be quite happy with that outcome, as the counting stats would be amazing in Yankee stadium, and a solid rf to boot.
So ZIPS is saying he’ll put up negative WAR for the rest of the season?
don’t Judge’s top of the leaderboard batted ball numbers (exit velo, barrels, % over 95 mph, etc) mean we should expect a higher than normal BABIP? does anyone know just how much of an outlier his statcast numbers are historically, and whether we should expect an outlier BABIP?
I recommend searching: Judge vs Bellinger: The Tale of the Tape
“Judge is running a 426 BABIP. If you look at the past 5 years nobody has really been above 365.”
If you look at the past 5 years nobody has really been 6′ 7″ and 280 pounds.
Not both, anyway.
6’7″ guys who weigh 280 lbs should have bigger holes in their swing, not smaller. Judge is incredible, but keeping him down to #6 on this list isn’t an overabundance of caution.
I’m not gonna lie, I think at the end of their careers (and perhaps even by the end of their rookie contracts) I think Sanchez is going to have a better career than Judge. But that’s mostly because I am a big believer in Sanchez…it’s unlikely Judge regresses to anything less than “above-average right fielder”. Even if this is his ceiling, what a ride.
This. I don’t think we’ve ever seen someone with a 30% strikeout rate hit even .300 over a full season. We may be seeing it here. Judge is Ivan Drago: whatever he hits, he destroys.
And yet–BABIPs for this season’s elite hitters appear to be significantly higher than they were last year. I am not a statistician, so I can’t tell you how significantly. But if I’m right, then it may mean that Judge’s BABIP will stay very high (especially given his exit velocities). I suspect exit velocities among the players hitting well this season are also above each player’s normal. Which would mean that Judge’s .426 BABIP is probably unsustainably high–but not as “lucky” as we are used to considering such a high BABIP.
But “holes in swing” doesn’t preclude exit velocity. And Judge is whiffing prodigiously. He’s also hitting the ball harder that anyone–which is a big component of BABIP.
There only have been 4 players in the last 70 years to manage a +.400 BABIP for even a single season, and Rod Carew topped out at .408. You have to go back to the 1890s to see .426 BABIPs sustained over 130+ games.
Aaron Judge is amazing, but don’t be stupid about it.
There aren’t a lot of balls in play here. He hits a ton of homers. He strikes out a ton. And he walks a ton.
If my math is right, only 161 balls in play in 366 PAs (30 HRs, 61 BBs, 5 IBBs, 109 Ks). So even if his BABIP drops significantly (which I don’t see why it would since he hits the ball so hard), I don’t see a huge drop in value.
IF his BABIP were .350, it would have resulted in 13 fewer hits, which would give him a .286 avg. At .300 BABIP, his average is .259. With that power and walk rate, he’s still providing immense value.
Maybe the BB% isn’t sustainable (he had strong BB numbers in the minors, but not like THIS)- and maybe his K% creeps up past 30%. But it would take more than a BABIP regression to really put a dent in his WAR.
Debbie Downer:
What Twitchy said.
BUT- What we are seeing is the 50% “baseline” projection here. I think any team trying to correctly value Aaron Judge at this point would run numerous scenarios (his BABIP drops to X, his HR/FB drops to Y, etc), and then the FO would have to decide what it thinks is most likely.
He’s unlike anyone we’ve seen. Projections systems don’t like that. Which is why scouting is still important- to confirm (or deny) what the statistics are telling us.
Remember: it only takes one team. So it’s not unreasonable that there is at least one team that would believe that, yes, while Judge’s BABIP and ISO may be up for some regression, it’s likely he outperforms what we previously thought was possible because he hits the ball harder than anyone in the Statcast era.
On another level, it would be pretty ridiculous to trade for Judge now as a pure value proposition, because there’s essentially zero chance his perceived value could increase. He has the same problem as Trout – paying full price for him is all downside. They’re nice value for the team that developed them, but I’m not convinced they have as much trade value as that might indicate. If a trade can only meet expectations at best, a GM is going to be unlikely to make it.
Neither has anybody hit the ball as hard as he has. I don’t think his BAPIP is really so far out of line. He has gotten lucky on some grounders, but he’s similarly gotten unlucky on some line drives. Look here: https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast_hit_probability for an indication of how exit velocity affects average and wOBA, and removing the home runs, BABIP.
To me, an argument that Judge’s BABIP or HR per fly ball percentage should be considerably lower is an argument that Judge cannot maintain his hitting profile of extreme exit velocity and favorable launch angles. That may be true, but that is not the way the argument is generally presented. Instead it is presented that Judge’s BABIP is mostly a matter of favorable luck. Not so. The numbers will tell you otherwise, and the eye test will as well.
As far as your argument of no one being above .365 BABIP over the last 5 years, I counter with the fact that no one over that period has hit the ball the way Judge has. The same goes for his ISO.
One knows the strong correlation between exit velocity, launch angle and BABIP/ISO. What one does not know is if Judge can maintain this hitting profile, and perhaps what his BABIP/ISO equilibrium will be if he does maintain his hitting profile.
As for Judge compared to Stanton, I think a big difference is Judge’s ability to hit with extreme exit velocities at higher launch angles. I am not sure if this is true or not, but I’ve noticed that batters seem to tend to reach their maximum exit velocities between -10 and 10 degrees off horizontal. Judge has so far been able to consistently hit with extreme exit velocity (110 MPH+) at higher launch angles, producing better results. Whether this is a result of variance and small sample size or an ability Judge has that sets him apart from every other batter currently in the game, including Stanton, is something we will have to wait to find out. But I don’t think it should be dismissed out of hand as just statistical noise, which is what one is doing when one simply points to ISO and BABIP numbers and decides they are too far out of line with those of Stanton’s or any other player’s.
You can admit that Judge hits the ball harder than most hitters while recognizing what he’s doing is basically only done by the best players in the history in the game. I’m not quite ready to suggest he’s that good. He hits the ball hard which is important, but there’s more to success than exit velocity and launch angle.
An aging Barry Bonds, when he was still putting up low 300 ISO, never had a HR:FB % above 30. Judge is at 41% right now. I think it’s reasonable to say that will drop, and that alone would cause a drop in his production (as even if some of those remain hits, they won’t be as valuable as HR).
I don’t think it’s realistic at all to say this is what Judge is based off of 3 months. Remember how great Gary Sanchez was a year ago? He looked like an absolute monster when he was putting up a 171 wRC+. But I mean these things generally aren’t sustainable, even if Judge has fantastic exit velocities. It means he’ll have a higher ceiling or floor when the regression hits, but it doesn’t mean that he’ll be the best player in baseball either.
“He hits the ball hard which is important, but there’s more to success than exit velocity and launch angle.”
If Judge continues his current hitting profile he will end up with results not far off from what he’s had. However he manages that, whether voodoo, steroids, or hard work, once the ball leaves the bat from the distribution of launch angle and velocity pairs that he’s shown so far, physics and probability will take over and bless him with numbers close to what he’s had. Of course there’s more to hitting than focusing on launch angles and velocities of batted balls. They are just some positive end results of an effective swing. But I was pointing out that by saying you don’t believe in his BABIP or his ISO then you are saying that you don’t believe in his launch angles and velocities. If you don’t believe in his launch angles and velocities then I believe you should have explicitly said that, and not left the discussion in the more abstract setting of ISO and BABIP.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but one thing you seem to be saying is, “Judge isn’t likely to be the best player in baseball. There are over 600 other players in baseball, what are the chances he’s the best? It’s just not likely.” There is no merit to such an argument unless we just ignore the data and are trying to blindly determine where Judge’s results should fall. The main part of your argument is that his ISO and BABIP are too far out of line with that of other players. That argument is valid, but what I pointed out is that you are tacitly assuming a relationship close to linear in exit velocity/launch angle versus BABIP and ISO. I think the chart I showed suggests that at least for exit velocity the relationship is not linear. You get an explosion in the range from 95 to 106 MPH. I am not saying that Judge will maintain his current hitting profile. I have no idea how stable such a thing is. What I am saying is that you have not given a reason why you think he can’t maintain it. There is a plausible phenomenological reason that Judge’s ISO and BABIP might deserve to be outliers. It’s that his size and strength are outliers as well. And not only is he stronger than Stanton, but his swing seems to be more efficient as well. Maybe he can’t maintain that, but why can’t he other than the fact that it would make him one of the best players in the game if he did?
As for Sanchez, an analysis of Sanchez’s hitting last year shows it is quite different from Judge’s this year.
Aaron Judge has had 1/2 of a great season, but how many times have we seen this. He will hit around .220 next season w/ a 290 OBP. The entire season. So trade him now while he is on the list.
How many times HAVE we seen this?
Pablo Sandoval, Andre Either, Jason Bay, Josh Hamilton, BJ Upton, Yasiel Puig, Jason Heyward, Carl Crawford, Joe Mauer…Jose Rameriez, Trea Turner just a couple examples from this year. One great half season. This happens quite often look at “dead-money” contracts. lets see how they do next season.
dumb question btw, were you hoping to stump me? you could of googled this yourself.
Nope, not allowed to do Jose Ramirez and Trea Turner like that.
Why? Because they haven’t been doing it a half season. Jose Ramirez has been *gold* for ayear and a half at this point, and Trea Turner is pretty far from a .220/.290/.???, even if he’s below 100 wRC+.
Lord, I didn’t expect to be saying ‘you’re giving Judge too hard a time here’ in the comments of *this* article.
like what? just stats. The league and player need 2+ seasons to make adjustments back and forth. just look at the #1 on this list 2015, 2016, and now this year. perfect example of the time it takes for adjustments to be made back and forth multiple times. That cannot happen in a half season, so if Turner is unable to “match the curve” he won’t be great.
Pablo Sandoval: He had one supernatural June in 2009, but his first half was not close to what Judge has done. Technically, he also was not a rookie at the time.
Andre Ethier: His first half in 2006 was not exactly exceptional, nor was his power.
Jason Bay: His 151 wRC+ in 2003 is a far cry from Judge’s 197.
Josh Hamilton: In 2010, his 4th season, he put up a 166 wRC+ in the first half, which is sorta comparable to Judge. Then he put up a 190 wRC+ in the second half.
BJ Upton: His 150 wRC+ in the first half of 2007, his THIRD year, is a far cry from Judge’s 197.
Yasiel Puig: Decent example. 170 wRC+ and .208 ISO in his first 333 PA. Sort of in Judge’s ballpark.
Jason Heyward: When has he ever produced like Aaron Judge’s first half? I couldn’t find anything remotely comparable.
Carl Crawford: What, 2010? His freaking NINTH season? That can’t possibly be what you mean.
Joe Mauer: 157 wRC+ in the 1st half of 2006, but with a .157 ISO. 179 wRC+, .249 ISO in 1st half of 2009, but it was his sixth season.
Are ANY of these players worthwhile comparisons?
“you could of googled this yourself.” If you’re going to go by the insufferable user name of “Fan gaff”, you should probably double check your comments for grammar mistakes.
I ran Judge through a few xBABIP calculators. He’s generally in the 365-375 range. Surprised no one did that in this thread. That seems reasonable. That would be just above Votto/Trout. Those are just the first two that come to mind. So it’s not unreasonable to think Judge’s true talent could be high 300s BABIP, just not 400+.
Thanks for doing that! While your xbabip calculators show that Judge’s babip has only been a little fluky. I have a hard time believing his true talent is .365+ babip. Just because he has been hitting the ball that hard doesn’t mean he’ll continue to hit the ball that hard. The 30% k rate tells me that there are holes ready to contribute to more softly hit balls. I suppose it’s not out of the question in this case that Judge mishitting a ball still looks like anyone else hitting one solid though. I’ll go with the under on a .350 babip for Judge rest of the way.
Oh I actually agree with you. I’m just saying it’s not unreasonable to think his true talent could be 365+. That would be elite, best in the game. However, that’s the likely ceiling, not 400+.
The funny thing is that ZIPS actually is the more responsive-to-change system we have here, at least for high-BABIP hitters. ZIPS likes Judge more than Steamer does, and in general, Dan has tuned ZIPS to buy into in-season BABIP spikes for hitters more quickly than most forecasts.
The reality is that any forecasting system is going to be built on multiple years of data, and Judge’s track record isn’t particularly great. Two years ago, he ran a 98 wRC+ in Double-A as a 23-year-old. That will lose weight as Judge gets more Major League experience, but right now, that’s still part of the calculations, and it suggests that there’s some risk here.
Why Judge has been able to destroy MLB pitching after being just okay against minor league pitching is an interesting story, and one worth looking at. And it may be that the forecasts just aren’t able to capture some change that turned him into something else entirely. But Judge has always been big, and he hasn’t always hit like this, so the algorithms are going to look at his minor league numbers and regress heavily.
Should great hitters have great minor league track records? Once someone starts to dominate a level, they really ought to be moved up to the next one. That would prevent a prospect from having great numbers if he’s handled properly.
The 98 wRC+ came in AAA, not AA…and he proceeded to adjust and destroy the level the next season (just like he destroyed every other level of minor league pitching).
Another factor is that the Yankees minor league stadiums are absolutely brutal on hitters, and FanGraphs doesn’t use park adjustments for MiLB wRC+.
There’s only one thing I don’t understand here re: the Correa vs Seager debate.
Correa was the 2015 AL Rookie of the Year. He had over 400 Plate Appearances. Seager was a September callup.
How does Seager not have one extra year of team control? There is no way he’s a super 2 player since he was Rookie-elligible for 2016, and Correa no longer was.
Correa should reach arbitration one year before Seager, and therefore free agency one year earlier as well. This column and it’s charts suggest they’re on the same path.
If that is indeed the case, shouldn’t Correa’s advantage of ceiling be offset by an additional year of pre-arbitration team control? Because that is an incredibly valuable thing.
Correa’s 2015 didn’t count as a full year of service since he didn’t play until 6/8 (so not super 2 either) so the two are essentially the same from a contract perspective despite the 3 months difference in debut date.
6/8 is cutting it pretty close, right? I think in some years the cut-off has been after that, though not usually.
There’s a difference between FA years of control and super-2 years (and generally what you think of as years played). Basically, as long as a guy stays in the minors for about 2 weeks at the start of a season, the team gets an extra year of control on him. That was the Bryant case from the same year.
The next date that matters is the June-ish super-2 date. That has no bearing on when they become a free agent, but does matter for super-2 criteria. So, like Correa, if they stay down in the minors past that time, then the team doesn’t have to worry about super-2 status for them.
Essentially, Correa and Seager both count in the same buckets since according to MLB rules, they both came up “at the same time” (ie. past the super-2 cutoff for 2015). Were Correa called up probably a week or two sooner, then they would be free agents at the same time, but Correa would have to go through the super-2 system this year.
2017 Anagram Value: #50 to #1
#50 Bleak Jam
#49 A No, A La, A No
#48 Manja Sexpot
#47 Must Ram Carson
#46 Jar Jar Icky Bleed
#45 Extra Dang Sober
#44 Non-Handy Tenor
#43 Barrio Bey
#42 Jan’s Equation
#41 Oo! A Candy Man!
#40 Lards Delusions
#39 Nice Trade Erin
#38 Relax, Bang ‘Em
#37 Job Gram Code
#36 Tall Onion James
#35 Serious ‘N’ Evil
#34 Dr. Dragonne Say Ah
#33 Ax Schmerzer
#32 Dumb Reasoning Ram
#31 Noon Land Area
#30 Joy Rang
#29 ACL, MCL, UCL: Sneer!
#28 Ol’ Cars O’ Cars Car
#27 Charlie Shin City
#26 Anni Intended Brew
#25 Miles Guano
#24 O Just Leave!
#23 Tidal Schlump God
#22 Mule Charm Life
#21 Crass Heil
#20 Formin’ Chocolate
#19 WLS Cast Iron Loner
#18 Grog Spree Reign
#17 Bet You Press
#16 Her Rich Cars
#15 Semi-Jar Zero
#14 Die Free Manfred
#13 Tim EZ Car Loans
#12 Synch A Graze
#11 NL Gerbil Decoy
#10 Lock Yur Beer
#9 Test Kieboom
#8 Honor Zany Zit
#7 Return Rate
#6 Judea Argon
#5 Flan O’ Crisco Rind
#4 Biryn Stark
#3 Roger Eye Sac
#2 Kotterium
#1 Re: Ol’ Cars O’ Car
Great work.
Not sure why, but “Tall Onion James” really made me chuckle. Sounds like a old-school early years of baseball nickname.
#29 would be better if it were a Met.
#29 is a bit scary for his future.
Also, really rude to #24.
That McCullers one is perfect.
#NotGraphsLives
Shout out to “Oo! A Candy Man!” given what we know about Moncada’s raging sweet tooth.
And I may have to start calling Jameson Taillon “Tall Onion James” exclusively from now on.
This is awesome, Dave! Thank you so much for doing this.
I have to say, the one thing about the top 10 that surprised me was Trout. I expected him to fall behind Seager and Bryant given the injury + rising salary. I suppose once you get to the top few guys it’s really just splitting hairs though.
I def expect trout to be the best player going forward, but no mention of an injury I think is odd. This is an injury that many players have had a hard time coming back from, and could hinder his most important talent, his swing.
As a San Diego fan, it’s sickening to see three former Padres in the top 10. It’s one thing to trade away great players because the team cannot “afford” to sign them, which is the standard way the team loses its stars. But, this has clearly evolved in recent years to giving future stars away because of a gross inability to recognize the quality of players already in the organization. Admittedly, these three players were lost by three different SD front offices… I’ll admit, I’m completely on board with the current direction of the team, but there’s a nagging voice in my head that the team will find a bushel of star players who will somehow find their way to other rosters, while San Diego fans are left wondering what could have been… And Mike Trout is awesome.
To be fair, one of those front offices did value Rizzo highly–that GM kept acquiring Rizzo wherever he went. And at the time, trading away Rizzo and Kluber wasn’t crazy at all. But Turner…that one is hard to defend. The Nationals made out like bandits in that trade, and it seemed like it at the time too.
Yeah. Only a dumb ass would trade the guy they just drafted 1# for some body whose not a super star.
IDK, every year Swanson hits below .240 and commits 30 fielding errors, (which will be every year he is in the league, as long as they allow him to keep playing), its not good AT ALL (0.2 WAR). This season its almost better to have an injured player instead of the D-backs starting Swanson right now.
I’m pretty blown away by the ranking for Trea Turner. He was awesome last year and is going to be excellent, but he hasn’t exactly been lighting the league on fire this year. And yet the WAR projections are pretty sure he’s going to be a 4-4.5 WAR guy. So I dug into similar sorts of players and what sorts of value they would provide.
Let’s assume Turner has a higher BABIP in his early years than he does now–he ran very high BABIPs in the minors and last year, and he’s very fast. He doesn’t walk a ton and his K’s are okay. He has good, but not otherworldly defense at shortstop. Some dingers, but not a ton–enough power to keep pitchers honest. This is essentially what he is now, except his BABIP is around .322 now (last year it was .388).
It’s hard to find shortstops who fit this profile. The BABIP is reminiscent of 2009 Derek Jeter, but he had a little more power, a lot more walks, and fewer strikeouts. 2012 Ian Desmond has more power (about 25 homers, in a less homer-prone environment) and a BABIP similar to what he’s running now. Both of those seem a lot more valuable than Turner’s likely future output, but since Desmond put up 4.7 WAR and Jeter put up 6.6, that’s not necessarily a bad thing.
My tentative conclusion: This guy is a pretty safe bet for 3.5 WAR going forward (which is about what he is doing this year), with some legitimate chance for him to be a 5-WAR guy if he improves in one or two areas. In a perfect world he’s the 6.5-WAR-a-year-guy from last year and if you think that’s realistic outcome then he’s like Lindor with another year of arbitration tacked on at the end. I don’t think that’s terribly likely. I wonder if the projections are bullish on his power output after last year, because I can’t imagine they’re thinking he’s going to run .388 BABIPs going forward.
Tentative Conclusion: I think I’d put him at about the same level as Kluber/Bellinger/Sanchez–maybe a little lower. Although I’m now wondering if I’d move up Kluber/Bellinger/Sanchez up instead of moving Turner down. That’s more optimistic on him than before I started this exercise. At the very least, Sanchez’s offensive profile seems more robust, and Sanchez also plays a premium defensive position adequately. He and Bellinger and Turner all seem kind of in the same boat with WAR projections too, although Bellinger and Sanchez have better control.
In any case, lots of thoughts, even if poorly organized.
Feels like he should be right next to Sanchez. Same age, same years of control. Both had amazing partial years last year, and have dropped back a bit this year. SS vs C are both premium positions, and both have projections in the 4-4.5 WAR range for each of the next 5 years.
I’m guessing the main reason Turner being higher is that he has more room to grow. His BABIP is expected to be high given his speed and profile, and that he hasn’t really played much SS yet, if he can continue to play there at an above average rate, he had a great chance to beat those projections even more.
Not everyone is convinced Sanchez’s body will let him stick at catcher. If he moves to 1B, he loses a good amount of value. Turner doesn’t pose that same kind of risk. They have similar ceilings but Turner has a higher floor.
I agree he’s going to eventually have to move off catcher. But I wouldn’t personally worry about him breaking down so much he has to move off during the current contract, as there are some big catchers who keep back there for a while. And his defense/framing is adequate, so there’s no reason to move him off for performance reasons. So it’s a risk, but the offensive upside (at catcher, no less) is still incredible. But I’m also pretty high on Sanchez and think a lot of the conventional wisdom about body types is overblown.
Sanchez is big, and good. But I would be more concerned on his body type + postion breaking down faster than I would Judge, and certainly Turner.
In the future we will look back and say Wil Myer’s career, with his constant 25/25 seasons and a better AVG & OBP, was way better than Trea Turner’s who was always injured and always arguing calls with the umps. which is the fastest way to lower your OBP by 30 points btw. Oh yeah they are practically the SAME AGE and Wil has been playing for 5-6 years. Turner has 3 years before he figures out how to stay healthy for even one full season.
Since Wil Myers has put up only 2 more WAR in over 3 times the PAs and is two years older (and has an injury history of his own) I will respectfully disagree.
“figures out how to stay healthy”
You know his injury was a HBP, right?
Life Lesson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZXHsNqkDI4
almost every MLB player would be injured by HBP at some point in their career if they don’t move quick enough…Ripken Jr. was pretty quick.
That’s a good point. I tried to even find a CF like him and came up with “Kenny Lofton with worse discipline.”
Very good player still, but not sure if he’s great going forward.
Whenever I read lists like this, I always pay particular attention to the possible impact of recency bias. It’s perfectly natural to look at recent performance and let that have an overwhelming effect on one’s estimate of value. And to be honest, front offices are made up of people, so I expect it to be a factor.
That said, I think Dave did a good job overall of trying to reduce it. Lindor’s high ranking is maybe the best evidence. If Lindor was offered in a trade for Judge, I can’t imagine the Yankees accepting. But that’s a minor quibble.
I can’t help but wonder if Trout would have retained the number 1 spot if he had stayed healthy. If Trout was sitting on nearly 30 HRs, a wRC+ of around 200, and 5-6 WAR, it would have been harder to unseat him.
I think there is an excellent case that Lindor should be ahead of Bryant:
1) SS > 3B
2) Not a super two
So Lindor plays a premium position and will be cheaper over the next four years. Now, this assumes you think Lindor is a .300/.350/.450 hitter.
And I think the Yankees would say yes to Bryant for Judge (and the Cubs no).
He makes $33M/year and he’s the 2nd best value in baseball. There are endless ways to make Trout sound amazing.
Also, in that the entire argument for him not being the most valuable player in baseball is that the other guy costs less.
Judge “might” have already reached his superstar potential?
At this moment he is easily the most popular player in MLB and probably the hottest name in all of sports. Oh yeah, and he leads baseball in WAR with a 20% lead on second place.
I think it’s safe to say he’s reached superstar status.
Remember when Carlos Delgado was that guy?
I get your point, but Carlos Delgado was never Aaron Judge.
Carlos Delgado was an absolute monster for a decade. If anything, Aaron Judge is no Carlos Delgado (yet).
Carlos Delgado was one of many impressive sluggers during the steroid era. Judge’s slugging in this era is so prolific that he put up more WAR in half a season than Delgado did in his first two. Delgado was a great player, but he’s not like Judge at all. Clearly Judge hasn’t matched Delgado’s career and might never do it, but that makes the comparison make even less sense.
Never said the comparison made any sense. I just felt the need to defend Delgado as one of the top 25 hitting first baseman in the history of baseball.
Reading “Carlos Delgado was never Aaron Judge” put me in defense mode on principle.
Well, he wasn’t. He never had a crazy breakout like Judge did. Almost no one ever has.
I remember Delgado was a huge name at the time, and he had a really good run, but looking back on him it’s hard to see why I thought he was so great.
I was curious so I did a search on the top first basemen. I assume we shouldn’t count guys like Stan Musial who moved there at the very end of their careers. Not sure what to do with Dick Allen and Killebrew and Rod Carew and Lance Berkman, who split positions. Also not sure what to do with known steroid users (like McGwuire and Giambi and Palmeiro). If you sort by offensive WAR (minimum 5000 PAs) Delgado winds up 27th, but you could throw out enough other players easily enough to put him Top 25 depending on your exclusion criteria.
But just looking down the list we have Gehrig, Foxx, Mize, Frank Thomas, Miguel Cabrera, Pujols, Bagwell, McCovey, Thome, Dan Brouthers, Will Clark, Eddie Murray, Cap Anson, Roger Connor, Hank Greenberg, Fred McGriff, Votto, and Harry Stovey ahead of Delgado. So Delgado is somewhere in between the 19th and 27th best offensive first baseman of all time, depending on who you want to exclude from the list.
yea, you must be too young to remember trombone.
I understand why this is getting downvoted, because it seems like johansantana17 is arguing he’s going to put up 8-10 WAR seasons from here on out. Maybe, but probably not. And no, he’s certainly not the hottest name in all of sports. And while he is a popular player right now he’s not “easily” the most popular player right now (he has more jersey sales, but everyone got their Kris Bryant ones last year).
But technically it is true: Aaron Judge has absolutely reached his superstar potential. What he’s done so far is in line with the absolute best offensive seasons since the steroid era. Whether he stays at that level is a different question.
Yeah, he’s at Harper 2015 levels right now…but Harper had run a 224 wRC+ in that first half.
Was Berrios close to making the HM/top 50?
He wasn’t one of the last few guys cut, but you could throw him into the 51-100 group and he’d fit in fine. If he keeps pitching well, he’ll get consideration next year.
I think I would need to see some evidence that suggests that weak contact inflates SS defensive stats before I ding Seager for it. My intuition suggests that the reverse may be true – shortstops really like well-struck balls hit in their area, and weaker ones are often their toughest plays.
These are always super fun. Thanks.
Is it weird that 8 of the top 20 didnt even appear last year? Baseball man….things obviously do change and contract situations evolve, but it’s kinda weird that that high a precentage just wasnt thought of as a top 50 asset just last year…
Remember, some of them lost a year of control. That makes them a lot less valuable. It isn’t a list of the best players, but best trade targets (and I feel like I preached too much there, sorry if it came across that way).
But at the same time “the more they change the more they stay the same” – exact same top five players with their order shuffled slightly.
Apologies in advance for a possibly dumb question: So Harper and Machado don’t make this list mainly for salary reasons, correct? Also hard to believe that Justin Turner can’t crack this list. Speaks to the level of high quality talent in the league right now, I guess.
Read the intro article which discusses those two in more detail.
That 2011 list held up really well. Only a few of the top 25 didn’t end up being great over the last six years. Obviously the order wasn’t perfect, but once you’re talking the top few dozen young players in the game projecting their relative value is awfully fine-grain stuff.
Wait where’s Pablo Sandoval
At a buffet with Bartolo Colon.
Why does ZIPS project Trout to lose about a win of value between age 26 and 28? He shouldn’t be in age related decline territory yet, right?
IIRC, ZiPS tracks only a few recent seasons and then compares to other similar players. As far as ZiPS is concerned, Trout’s last few years are peak career outliers from an excellent player, but they can’t possibly be sustained, since nearly everyone else who has had a few years sort of like this inevitably fell off. ZiPS does not realize that Mike Trout is Willie Mays.
Not sure if I’d call Trout Willie Mays.
To me, his game feels more like the original version of Barry Bonds.
According to Baseball Reference, his most similar players through 24 are Mickey Mantle, Ken Griffey, Hank Aaron, and Frank Robinson. I don’t see the Hank Aaron comparison but I’ll buy the others (although subjectively, the power-speed combo is reminiscent of original-head-sized-Bonds).
Great job as usual Dave. Minor quibbles here and there but certainly nothing major. Love this series.
It’s worth remembering that the ranking is highly dependent on the acquiring team. I’ve got to think that high payroll teams that are looking to max out WAR/position would take Trout all day long over everyone else on the list. Sure you get another year with Correa but Trout stands to still create more value with one less year.
For teams that are closely monitoring the budget, Trout’s salary will be a major deterrent.
Even a high salary team does care about cost. The Dodgers for example have kept hoarding prospects and going more for quantity than big splashes in the market. Having a Seager or Correa at almost nothing means you can go sign a $30mil/year player at another position, and suddenly that total value doesn’t look too or even really good compared to Trout. In the end it’s a still a close call probably and that’s why Dave said the top 3 were basically separated by nearly nothing. But teams these days all pretty much operate with wins per cost in mind, at least from what I see.
There’s a difference between holding controlled talent instead of spending on older FAs and spending on Mike Trout in his prime. Dave mentions above that the cost difference between Trout and Correa is about $60 over the next three or four years, which at current $/WAR is about 5-6 WAR over that period. So you can have Correa and a 1.5-2.5 WAR player or Trout. Unless you have an outsized concern about payroll, I think you take Trout and his almost guaranteed 8+ WAR a year instead of a probability that Correa/Seager put up consistent 6+ WAR seasons for the next four years.
I think most teams that aren’t in a rebuilding phase would do the same.
Bird in hand and all that.
I don’t understand what the projection systems have against Corey Seager. In 265 career games, he’s running a .308/.380/.514 line with 142 wRC+, and yet ZiPS thinks he’s only good for .284/.347/.477 (118 wRC+) moving forward. After Judge, Seager is in that next grouping of premiere ball strikers: At age 23, he has already posted two seasons with a 47% Hard-hit rate, he never pops up (1.2% career, 0% this year), he hits gobs of liners (24%), and he’s upped his FB percentage in every season (27%, 29% and 34%). That’s not even mentioning that his walk rate (13%) is also at a career high. He hasn’t shown elite power, but 18% HR/FB is nothing to scoff at, and his average HR distances tell us that he hits the ball plenty far. Seager’s profile is remarkably similar to Joey Votto’s, only Seager is a 23-yo shortstop. I guess I just don’t understand why the projection systems don’t seem to believe in him when every underlying metric validates what he’s doing (and indicates future growth potential, as well).
Regression toward the mean is the norm. Projections that acknowledge the likelihood of regression are going to hurt the estimates for elite young players more than any other type of player, and the shorter the track record the more it’s gong to hurt them. In the Correa section, Dave even points out that ZiPS made a conservative adjustment that will hurt elite young players’ projections even more. That’s just how valuing regression works.
So how much does ZiPS not believe in Seager? So much that it projects him for 22.2 WAR, which would have ranked #4 among all position players from 2013-2016. That’s how little it believes in him.
He also comes in #5 in team-controlled WAR on this list. Let’s run down who’s ahead of him. Trout is Trout. He comes in at #1 in only three years because he is superhuman; the rest of these guys get four like Seager. Correa is a year younger. Lindor is the same age and has a slightly longer record of being really good. Bryant is older, but he has an even better record of being really good that is longer still than Lindor’s.
Then there’s Seager. The gap from Correa to Seager is 0.725 wins per year, which is practically a rounding error in projections against short track records. ZiPS believes in him just fine.
Leaving the baserunning and defense out of it and just looking at the stick, ZiPs projects Lindor at 110 wRC+ vs. a to-date mark of 113. ZiPs like’s Correa for 132 wRC+, vs. a to-date mark of 135. ZiPs likes Rizzo at 135 wRC+, vs. a to-date mark of 131. Then there’s Seager, with a 20-pt delta between projected and actual. I guess my question is why the systems specifically don’t see him sustaining his hitting when all of the secondary stats indicate that his bat is elite?
Seager is as close in age to Correa as he is to LIndor; it’s just a quirk of the arbitrary cutoff ZIPS makes that dings Seager and credits Correa. The difference between them is 200-300 PAs.
Also, I think ZIPS is terrible at projecting BABIP sustainability. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe it uses any actual contact data when spitting out a projection.
ZIPS will only ever be as good as the data being fed in, and right now, there are some non-choice cuts being used.
Six Ten already said it, so I defer.
The key phrase is “265 career games”
The key phrase is “ZiPS” — the worst projection system alive.
Doesn’t Harper have some trade value?
read the honorable mention post
*Dave Cameron Correa Banquet
I think I’d put Trout at #4. A team’s average payroll is about 135 mil, so adding Trout would require a 25% increase. I think that would instantly turn some owners off, no matter how good he is. Also, many teams close to $200 mil are extremely hesitant to go over the luxury tax, including Trout’s Angels.
But, like Cameron said, Trout’s the best player in baseball and it isn’t really close, so I can see the argument for putting him as high as #1. I just think that the majority of teams in baseball would be willing to give up more prospect capital for a cheaper, albeit worse player (Correa, Seager, Bryant).
We actually just saw this question in action with Quintana vs. Sale.
There’s actually a much larger gap between their paychecks and team control than their production over the last few years…but Sale still cost a chunk more, because he’s a better player.
Think the crux is what you believe determining value is supposed to be in service of. If it’s asking what the trade value is to a team trying to compete, then I think is clearly Trout; if you’re asking what the value to a club trying to spend as little money as possible while occasionally making a playoff run if the right stars align, then it’s one of the other top 3. Maybe the later are more prevalent, but I think the former are more important when assessing a player’s hypothetical value.
I just think if you offered Trout in exchange for Seager, Bryant, or Correa, all three teams would say yes. (Maybe the Astros take an extra couple days to get back to you before accepting.) And if the best team in baseball last year and the two best teams in baseball this year are likely to make the deal, I think it’s a mistake to ignore that fact.
I’m always interested in consistency year to year in a sport with so many numbers.
Rizzos last 4 years OBPs:
.386
.385
.387
.386
My personal favourite is Christian Yelich’s wRC+ in each of his first three seasons:
118
118
118
My personal favorite:
The number of seasons where Hiroki Kuroda’s ERA, FIP, or xFIP began with a number other than 3: zero
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3283&position=P
Whoah thats a good one
Ah, but Steamer sure doesn’t like Kuroda much for ’17!
Were are the 5-year Zips projections available on the site?