2023 ZiPS Projections: St. Louis Cardinals

For the 18th consecutive season, the ZiPS projection system is unleashing a full set of prognostications. For more information on the ZiPS projections, please consult this year’s introduction and MLB’s glossary entry. The team order is selected by lot, and the next team up is the St. Louis Cardinals.

Batters

Yesterday, I compared the Seattle Mariners to the St. Louis Cardinals. Today, it’s time for the real thing. The Cardinals possess that extra thumper I wish the Mariners had in the form of Paul Goldschmidt. Otherwise, the lineups don’t look all that dissimilar: Nolan Arenado plays an older superstar third base version of Julio Rodríguez while the rest of the lineup is low-key, solid, and not particularly exciting, at least at the plate. The Cardinals are rarely a bad team, and it would be tremendously challenging for them to be one in 2023. Want to know one of my favorite freak stats? The last time the Cardinals ranked worse than 20th in baseball in wRC+ was in 1978. From Whiteyball to Jockettynomics to Moneyball to Mozeliakanalia, the Cards almost always manage to score runs.

In any given season, Arenado and Goldschmidt will compete to be the best at their respective positions. Still, I would take the under on our depth charts’ playing time projections, as both are at the age where declines in playing time due to injury are expected, especially Goldschmidt. Add in Tommy Edman, who may be the most underrated shortstop in baseball, and better-than-league average performances pretty much everywhere else, and this is a team that should dominate every NL Central team other than the Brewers.

The Cards are so solid that they’re almost uninteresting, just as Mike Trout can sometimes seem a bit boring compared to more volatile (and flawed) stars. If there’s a weakness here, it might be the lack of usable depth in the high minors to serve as midseason reinforcements. Jordan Walker’s projection looks a little disappointing on the surface, but ZiPS has him with huge upside numbers in 2024 and beyond. The role player depth is thinner, though; a lot of the usual cast of Triple-A hangers-on have moved on in minor league free agency and ZiPS isn’t particularly impressed with additions like Taylor Motter and Juniel Querecuto. But there’s still time for the Cardinals to add more NRIs, so I wouldn’t necessarily call this a done deal.

Pitchers

You’ll notice a bit of a disconnect between the pitching staff’s projected WAR and ERA figures, with the latter a lot more fun than the former. This is a relic of the team’s outstanding defensive projections, even with Harrison Bader in New York. As a result, the ERAs are a lot lower than the FIPs across the board, and while ZiPS WAR gives more credit to a pitcher than just using FIP, in this case it’s mostly the defense.

That’s not to say the Cards have a bad rotation — it just lacks the exciting highlights the offense possesses. Once you accept that there’s a good chance that peak Jack Flaherty isn’t coming back, there’s nobody here who really blows you away, except maybe Jordan Montgomery during his run late last summer. It’s a quietly competent starting five and there’s more depth in the upper minors than there is with the lineup.

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The biggest disagreements between ZiPS and Steamer appear to be in the bullpen. Where Steamer views the team’s bullpen as middle of the pack, ZiPS much prefers the team’s second-tier relievers, seeing Chris Stratton, Génesis Cabrera, and Andre Pallante as plus contributors, while Steamer thinks of them as closer to replacement level. Only the season will sort out which computer is correct.

My think the Cards are a 89-93 win team and not quite in the tier of the very best in baseball, but ZiPS disagrees, putting St. Louis in the same range as the Padres, Astros, Braves, Dodgers, and Mets. My personal feeling is that the Cards really need a true ace at the top of the rotation, but perhaps that’s just my inclination to play devil’s advocate. ZiPS has beat me before (see the Tigers last year!).

Ballpark graphic courtesy Eephus League. Depth charts constructed by way of those listed here.

Batters – Standard
Player B Age PO PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS
Nolan Arenado R 32 3B 598 538 67 147 35 1 25 92 50 73 4 2
Paul Goldschmidt R 35 1B 616 538 88 148 31 1 26 94 70 136 6 1
Tommy Edman B 28 SS 633 581 91 152 31 5 13 65 41 103 26 3
Willson Contreras R 31 C 477 412 61 98 21 1 19 64 44 111 3 3
Dylan Carlson B 24 CF 576 509 75 127 30 4 15 66 53 120 6 3
Paul DeJong R 29 SS 480 426 56 90 19 0 20 60 41 130 5 3
Tyler O’Neill R 28 LF 459 410 67 102 18 1 22 71 38 130 12 3
Alec Burleson L 24 LF 514 478 57 129 21 3 16 68 30 87 3 1
Lars Nootbaar L 25 RF 439 373 63 85 19 3 18 56 57 92 5 1
Nolan Gorman L 23 2B 523 474 78 110 18 0 29 78 44 177 3 1
Brendan Donovan L 26 2B 531 456 69 115 23 1 6 52 59 86 3 3
Kramer Robertson R 28 SS 483 414 59 88 16 2 7 49 55 106 12 5
Juan Yepez R 25 LF 480 441 55 116 22 0 24 74 31 110 0 1
Yadier Molina R 40 C 353 332 30 82 14 0 7 39 14 56 3 1
Oscar Mercado R 28 CF 431 392 53 94 21 3 9 50 30 78 13 4
Jordan Walker R 21 3B 515 468 67 111 25 3 12 66 36 133 11 3
Taylor Motter R 33 SS 338 297 36 64 13 1 13 40 37 88 1 1
Chase Pinder R 27 LF 290 251 29 51 9 0 6 29 32 75 2 3
Jose Fermin R 24 3B 379 334 52 79 11 1 5 44 29 55 6 4
Andrew Knizner R 28 C 289 257 30 59 11 0 5 26 24 58 1 1
Iván Herrera R 23 C 386 340 38 76 12 2 8 40 36 90 2 1
Scott Hurst L 27 CF 373 335 40 72 12 1 6 35 34 100 6 4
Aaron Antonini L 24 C 244 214 22 40 7 0 4 25 18 59 1 1
Juniel Querecuto B 30 SS 403 378 44 95 17 3 9 43 22 86 6 3
Mike Antico L 25 CF 528 483 55 102 23 3 10 55 38 147 26 4
Pedro Pages R 24 C 337 304 27 61 13 0 6 34 26 105 1 1
Noah Mendlinger L 22 3B 275 236 29 54 9 1 1 24 25 47 3 2
Irving Lopez L 28 3B 313 284 32 62 12 2 3 30 19 67 2 1
Masyn Winn R 21 SS 542 494 70 110 26 5 7 53 39 135 21 4
Nick Dunn L 26 2B 445 403 42 93 17 2 4 39 34 61 2 1
Justin Toerner L 26 CF 376 326 42 64 12 1 6 36 38 122 5 2
Matt Koperniak L 25 LF 425 386 42 92 16 1 7 49 26 87 5 3
Nick Raposo R 25 C 208 191 22 41 10 1 3 21 15 56 1 1
Moisés Gómez R 24 RF 473 432 52 84 19 1 17 59 35 190 4 2
Jacob Buchberger R 25 3B 405 375 34 81 12 3 5 38 27 98 7 2
Chandler Redmond L 26 1B 381 349 36 71 14 1 12 45 28 141 1 1
Tyler Reichenborn R 24 LF 451 404 38 86 15 3 6 44 31 111 7 6
Cory Spangenberg L 32 3B 400 373 44 78 14 3 7 41 22 147 11 2
Francisco Hernandez R 23 2B 366 334 34 63 13 2 3 29 27 119 8 4
Luken Baker R 26 1B 477 441 41 93 20 0 15 57 30 139 0 1
Mack Chambers B 23 SS 273 250 33 53 10 1 3 22 19 63 4 2
L.J. Jones R 24 DH 414 387 39 83 19 1 8 45 17 101 1 1
Roberto Baldoquin R 29 3B 241 219 19 45 7 0 0 19 15 54 1 1
Jonah Davis L 25 CF 271 239 27 35 7 2 7 30 23 139 2 2
Aaron McKeithan R 23 C 293 264 23 56 9 1 3 30 19 69 0 1
Todd Lott R 25 RF 449 418 44 85 20 2 9 53 18 155 3 2

Batters – Advanced
Player PA BA OBP SLG OPS+ ISO BABIP Def WAR wOBA
Nolan Arenado 598 .273 .339 .481 127 .208 .277 9 5.3 .349
Paul Goldschmidt 616 .275 .360 .481 134 .206 .324 3 4.3 .362
Tommy Edman 633 .262 .316 .399 99 .138 .299 7 4.2 .311
Willson Contreras 477 .238 .335 .432 113 .194 .280 -3 3.1 .334
Dylan Carlson 576 .250 .326 .413 106 .163 .299 -2 2.5 .320
Paul DeJong 480 .211 .290 .397 90 .185 .254 6 2.4 .298
Tyler O’Neill 459 .249 .320 .459 115 .210 .310 2 2.4 .334
Alec Burleson 514 .270 .313 .427 105 .157 .301 6 2.2 .319
Lars Nootbaar 439 .228 .328 .440 113 .212 .255 3 2.1 .330
Nolan Gorman 523 .232 .300 .454 108 .222 .302 -6 2.1 .323
Brendan Donovan 531 .252 .353 .346 98 .094 .299 -2 2.1 .315
Kramer Robertson 483 .213 .321 .312 79 .099 .269 4 1.9 .288
Juan Yepez 480 .263 .315 .476 118 .213 .300 -4 1.7 .337
Yadier Molina 353 .247 .283 .352 77 .105 .279 6 1.4 .277
Oscar Mercado 431 .240 .302 .378 89 .138 .279 1 1.4 .297
Jordan Walker 515 .237 .299 .380 89 .143 .307 -2 1.2 .295
Taylor Motter 338 .215 .302 .397 94 .182 .260 -5 0.8 .303
Chase Pinder 290 .203 .301 .311 73 .108 .265 10 0.8 .277
Jose Fermin 379 .237 .313 .320 77 .084 .270 0 0.5 .285
Andrew Knizner 289 .230 .309 .331 80 .101 .278 -2 0.6 .285
Iván Herrera 386 .224 .304 .341 81 .118 .281 -6 0.6 .286
Scott Hurst 373 .215 .290 .310 69 .096 .288 4 0.5 .269
Aaron Antonini 244 .187 .276 .276 56 .089 .238 4 0.4 .252
Juniel Querecuto 403 .251 .293 .384 77 .132 .304 -2 0.4 .292
Mike Antico 528 .211 .277 .333 70 .122 .282 -2 0.3 .269
Pedro Pages 337 .201 .270 .303 61 .102 .285 2 0.3 .256
Noah Mendlinger 275 .229 .321 .288 73 .059 .282 0 0.3 .279
Irving Lopez 313 .218 .285 .306 66 .088 .276 3 0.3 .265
Masyn Winn 542 .223 .280 .338 72 .115 .293 -7 0.2 .271
Nick Dunn 445 .231 .297 .313 72 .082 .263 -2 0.1 .271
Justin Toerner 376 .196 .297 .294 67 .098 .293 -1 0.1 .269
Matt Koperniak 425 .238 .300 .339 79 .101 .291 1 0.0 .283
Nick Raposo 208 .215 .274 .325 67 .110 .288 -2 0.0 .264
Moisés Gómez 473 .194 .258 .361 71 .167 .298 5 -0.1 .268
Jacob Buchberger 405 .216 .272 .304 62 .088 .279 1 -0.2 .255
Chandler Redmond 381 .203 .268 .352 72 .149 .301 2 -0.4 .271
Tyler Reichenborn 451 .213 .280 .309 66 .097 .279 4 -0.5 .263
Cory Spangenberg 400 .209 .258 .319 61 .110 .324 -5 -0.8 .253
Francisco Hernandez 366 .189 .254 .266 47 .078 .283 1 -0.8 .235
Luken Baker 477 .211 .264 .358 73 .147 .272 -1 -1.0 .271
Mack Chambers 273 .212 .268 .296 59 .084 .272 -9 -1.1 .249
L.J. Jones 414 .214 .259 .331 64 .116 .270 0 -1.1 .258
Roberto Baldoquin 241 .205 .274 .237 46 .032 .273 -5 -1.1 .236
Jonah Davis 271 .146 .244 .280 47 .134 .301 -6 -1.2 .239
Aaron McKeithan 293 .212 .283 .288 61 .076 .276 -13 -1.2 .258
Todd Lott 449 .203 .254 .325 61 .122 .299 -3 -1.4 .254

Batters – Top Near-Age Offensive Comps
Player Hit Comp 1 Hit Comp 2 Hit Comp 3
Nolan Arenado Mike Lowell Aramis Ramirez Cal Ripken
Paul Goldschmidt Pedro Guerrero Lou Gehrig Edgar Martinez
Tommy Edman Rafael Furcal Erick Aybar Bert Campaneris
Willson Contreras Carlton Fisk Ray Mueller Gabby Hartnett
Dylan Carlson Bob Elliott Bernie Williams Dion James
Paul DeJong Danny Espinosa Lee Elia Jim Riggleman
Tyler O’Neill Teoscar Hernández Bobby Bonds Austin McHenry
Alec Burleson Tony Oliva Warren Cromartie Jimmy Welsh
Lars Nootbaar Cody Bellinger Red Barnes Tommy Henrich
Nolan Gorman Hector Cruz Mickey Klutts Austin Riley
Brendan Donovan Mike Andrews Jose Oquendo Edgar Martinez
Kramer Robertson Lyn Lary Pumpsie Green James Rice
Juan Yepez Daryle Ward Cotton Nash Juan Gonzalez
Yadier Molina Eddie Perez Bo Diaz Sandy Alomar
Oscar Mercado Dell Alston Harry Walker Manuel Margot
Jordan Walker Bobby Murcer Nick Senzel Dilson Herrera
Taylor Motter Tim Teufel Eric Chavez Luis Valbuena
Chase Pinder Mike Papi David Keel Roy Cullenbine
Jose Fermin Peter Maris Rob Belloir Rico Rossy
Andrew Knizner Mark Strittmatter Jeff Reed Matt Treanor
Iván Herrera Greg Mahlberg Doug Robbins Eric Christopherson
Scott Hurst Aaron Cain Rhadames Mills Ryan Christenson
Aaron Antonini Tanner Murphy James Powers Kyle Pollock
Juniel Querecuto Michael Martinez Cristian Guzman Brad Boyer
Mike Antico Clete Thomas Blake Tekotte Mark Davis
Pedro Pages Jason Townley Cameron Rupp Ryan Christianson
Noah Mendlinger Noel Finley Eddie Cornejo Raymond Rivas
Irving Lopez Greg Fulton Juan Delis Jorge Deleon
Masyn Winn Alfredo Griffin Arismendy Alcantara Jerry Royster
Nick Dunn Ramon Aviles Chip Hale Carlos Rodriguez
Justin Toerner Randy Curtis Ryan Aguilar Jackson Brennan
Matt Koperniak Tim Smith Bob Hartsfield Al Smith
Nick Raposo Don Bryant Tim McConnell Darryl Cias
Moisés Gómez Tony Armas Mike Kelly Casey Golden
Jacob Buchberger Ron Marigny Ramiro Pena Matt Witkowski
Chandler Redmond Joe Gerber Rod McCall Kyle Roller
Tyler Reichenborn David Kandilas Conner Capel Brock Davis
Cory Spangenberg Welington Dotel Carlos Duncan Larry Raines
Francisco Hernandez Wayne Busby Albert Cartwright Darrin Duffy
Luken Baker Adell Davenport Rene Lachemann Mike Bianucci
Mack Chambers Yoel Romero Tommy Watkins Robert Townsend
L.J. Jones Eddie Pearson 피어슨 Al Jimenez Steve Eddie
Roberto Baldoquin Yovan Gonzalez B.J. Guinn Jeff Bianchi
Jonah Davis Al Shirley Doug O’Neill Marlan Murphy
Aaron McKeithan John McLaren George Enright Adan Amezcua
Todd Lott Brandon Barnes 반즈 Todd Glaesmann Bryan Bogle

Batters – 80th/20th Percentiles
Player 80th BA 80th OBP 80th SLG 80th OPS+ 80th WAR 20th BA 20th OBP 20th SLG 20th OPS+ 20th WAR
Nolan Arenado .299 .369 .535 148 7.0 .249 .314 .432 107 3.7
Paul Goldschmidt .298 .382 .532 152 5.6 .252 .332 .433 116 2.9
Tommy Edman .288 .342 .440 117 5.6 .239 .292 .358 83 2.8
Willson Contreras .263 .362 .487 135 4.3 .209 .314 .375 93 1.9
Dylan Carlson .275 .352 .467 127 4.1 .222 .302 .367 89 1.3
Paul DeJong .235 .313 .453 111 3.6 .186 .264 .351 72 1.3
Tyler O’Neill .279 .345 .518 137 3.7 .224 .295 .408 96 1.2
Alec Burleson .297 .343 .484 128 3.7 .243 .286 .377 85 0.9
Lars Nootbaar .255 .356 .508 134 3.3 .204 .302 .377 90 0.9
Nolan Gorman .261 .328 .529 133 3.8 .204 .271 .392 84 0.5
Brendan Donovan .277 .378 .387 115 3.3 .223 .323 .312 79 0.9
Kramer Robertson .235 .347 .355 97 3.0 .184 .292 .270 61 0.8
Juan Yepez .292 .341 .535 140 3.1 .234 .287 .414 94 0.3
Yadier Molina .279 .314 .393 96 2.3 .215 .254 .304 57 0.5
Oscar Mercado .266 .328 .428 109 2.4 .215 .275 .331 71 0.3
Jordan Walker .265 .327 .426 109 2.6 .213 .274 .330 71 0.0
Taylor Motter .238 .324 .450 114 1.7 .189 .275 .348 75 0.0
Chase Pinder .229 .330 .356 92 1.5 .173 .267 .270 54 0.0
Jose Fermin .261 .338 .356 94 1.3 .211 .289 .283 61 -0.3
Andrew Knizner .265 .341 .386 102 1.4 .198 .279 .286 61 -0.1
Iván Herrera .250 .332 .399 103 1.6 .197 .276 .294 62 -0.4
Scott Hurst .243 .320 .355 87 1.3 .188 .264 .270 50 -0.4
Aaron Antonini .216 .308 .325 76 1.1 .161 .251 .231 38 -0.1
Juniel Querecuto .275 .319 .434 94 1.3 .223 .267 .335 58 -0.6
Mike Antico .234 .299 .373 87 1.4 .185 .249 .292 54 -0.9
Pedro Pages .229 .297 .342 78 1.1 .175 .243 .256 42 -0.5
Noah Mendlinger .261 .352 .332 94 1.0 .200 .293 .252 57 -0.4
Irving Lopez .247 .313 .351 86 1.1 .195 .262 .268 50 -0.4
Masyn Winn .246 .303 .386 91 1.4 .202 .255 .301 58 -1.0
Nick Dunn .262 .327 .355 92 1.2 .200 .268 .271 54 -1.0
Justin Toerner .225 .323 .336 84 0.9 .169 .269 .253 48 -0.8
Matt Koperniak .265 .326 .380 97 1.0 .208 .272 .294 59 -1.1
Nick Raposo .246 .304 .371 86 0.5 .186 .247 .280 49 -0.5
Moisés Gómez .221 .287 .418 92 1.3 .168 .233 .306 51 -1.2
Jacob Buchberger .243 .298 .346 80 0.8 .195 .249 .270 47 -1.0
Chandler Redmond .230 .297 .399 92 0.6 .175 .244 .305 53 -1.4
Tyler Reichenborn .239 .307 .351 83 0.5 .187 .253 .273 49 -1.4
Cory Spangenberg .241 .285 .373 82 0.3 .181 .229 .274 42 -1.7
Francisco Hernandez .210 .280 .309 64 0.0 .162 .228 .233 30 -1.6
Luken Baker .240 .290 .401 90 0.2 .186 .238 .315 55 -2.0
Mack Chambers .245 .298 .349 81 -0.3 .183 .239 .256 39 -1.8
L.J. Jones .242 .287 .378 85 0.0 .191 .235 .292 48 -2.0
Roberto Baldoquin .232 .302 .272 63 -0.6 .180 .248 .208 31 -1.6
Jonah Davis .174 .272 .339 68 -0.6 .115 .217 .222 28 -2.0
Aaron McKeithan .242 .316 .336 82 -0.5 .182 .257 .250 45 -1.9
Todd Lott .232 .282 .368 79 -0.4 .182 .231 .285 45 -2.3

Pitchers – Standard
Player T Age W L ERA G GS IP H ER HR BB SO
Giovanny Gallegos R 31 6 3 3.14 60 0 63.0 47 22 8 17 75
Ryan Helsley R 28 6 3 3.17 50 1 59.7 44 21 7 23 75
Jordan Montgomery L 30 8 5 3.38 29 29 157.3 147 59 17 37 137
Jack Flaherty R 27 6 5 3.47 21 20 103.7 85 40 14 35 106
Chris Stratton R 32 6 4 3.50 51 1 61.7 58 24 6 22 58
Ryan Loutos R 24 5 3 3.57 41 2 58.0 55 23 6 19 50
Jordan Hicks R 26 5 3 3.58 35 8 60.3 45 24 5 34 67
Andre Pallante R 24 6 4 3.68 38 13 100.3 99 41 10 38 75
Steven Matz L 32 7 6 3.71 22 19 97.0 93 40 13 28 94
Miles Mikolas R 34 11 9 3.75 27 26 156.0 153 65 21 32 116
Jacob Bosiokovic R 29 4 3 3.76 29 0 40.7 35 17 4 18 42
Kodi Whitley R 28 2 2 3.78 44 0 50.0 46 21 6 21 46
Matthew Liberatore L 23 10 9 3.83 28 26 141.0 131 60 15 47 121
Zack Thompson L 25 4 4 3.92 33 13 85.0 75 37 9 36 76
Jake Walsh R 27 1 2 3.93 16 0 18.3 15 8 3 8 20
Connor Thomas L 25 9 7 3.93 25 22 128.3 128 56 13 35 87
Jake Woodford R 26 6 5 3.95 33 15 98.0 95 43 10 37 69
Adam Wainwright R 41 10 9 3.96 26 26 154.7 156 68 21 47 117
Dakota Hudson R 28 9 7 3.98 27 26 144.7 142 64 15 60 93
Génesis Cabrera L 26 5 4 3.99 47 4 70.0 63 31 8 28 63
Zach McAllister R 35 2 3 4.38 42 0 51.3 47 25 6 22 55
Packy Naughton L 27 5 5 4.01 28 13 85.3 87 38 11 22 68
Wilking Rodriguez R 33 2 1 4.03 15 1 22.3 20 10 2 11 20
Blake Parker R 38 2 1 4.04 37 0 35.7 32 16 5 16 35
JoJo Romero L 26 5 4 4.04 30 12 71.3 68 32 10 30 68
Andre Granillo R 23 5 5 4.04 37 0 49.0 43 22 6 28 51
Connor Lunn R 24 6 6 4.05 22 19 93.3 94 42 12 23 68
Alex Reyes R 28 5 5 4.06 38 2 44.3 34 20 5 31 51
Freddy Pacheco R 25 4 3 4.13 45 0 52.3 43 24 7 30 61
Gianluca Dalatri R 25 2 2 4.14 30 0 41.3 38 19 6 19 40
Tommy Parsons R 27 7 6 4.15 32 14 108.3 106 50 15 41 82
Michael McGreevy R 22 7 7 4.21 27 27 136.7 140 64 18 44 85
Brandon Waddell L 29 3 4 4.24 25 5 51.0 50 24 7 24 47
James Naile R 30 4 4 4.28 40 7 82.0 86 39 10 26 55
Gordon Graceffo R 23 8 7 4.29 25 25 126.0 119 60 17 38 87
Dalton Roach R 27 6 7 4.29 30 13 92.3 94 44 14 28 72
Kyle Ryan L 31 3 2 4.30 39 0 44.0 44 21 5 21 30
Zane Mills R 22 6 6 4.30 25 25 134.0 143 64 16 38 69
Kenny Hernandez L 25 5 6 4.32 28 11 89.7 94 43 12 32 58
Guillermo Zuniga R 24 4 4 4.44 40 1 50.7 47 25 8 25 50
Logan Gragg R 24 4 5 4.48 26 15 90.3 96 45 13 26 57
Drew VerHagen R 32 4 4 4.50 24 8 62.0 65 31 9 23 51
Edgar Escobar R 26 7 8 4.52 26 14 99.7 102 50 14 39 68
Johan Quezada R 28 2 1 4.53 36 1 49.7 48 25 7 29 45
Brandon Komar R 24 4 6 4.95 27 12 91.0 92 50 12 41 65
Grant Black R 28 4 4 4.59 40 5 64.7 67 33 9 30 46
John Beller L 24 3 4 4.60 24 10 58.7 57 30 9 31 52
Kyle Leahy R 26 6 8 4.67 24 20 117.7 125 61 17 51 83
Garrett Williams L 28 4 5 4.73 27 12 70.3 61 37 9 45 72
Jose Martinez R 24 4 4 5.26 26 7 65.0 74 38 11 28 39
Michael YaSenka R 25 2 3 5.05 23 7 62.3 63 35 10 34 49
Edgar Gonzalez곤잘레스 R 26 4 6 5.55 19 12 60.0 67 37 12 36 46
Griffin Roberts R 27 1 3 6.38 19 7 42.3 44 30 8 32 34

Pitchers – Advanced
Player IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 BB% K% BABIP ERA+ FIP ERA- WAR
Giovanny Gallegos 63.0 10.7 2.4 1.1 6.7% 29.8% .262 125 3.38 80 1.0
Ryan Helsley 59.7 11.3 3.5 1.1 9.3% 30.5% .270 124 3.32 80 1.0
Jordan Montgomery 157.3 7.8 2.1 1.0 5.7% 21.0% .286 117 3.60 86 3.0
Jack Flaherty 103.7 9.2 3.0 1.2 8.2% 24.8% .264 113 4.02 88 1.9
Chris Stratton 61.7 8.5 3.2 0.9 8.4% 22.1% .297 112 3.66 89 0.6
Ryan Loutos 58.0 7.8 2.9 0.9 7.6% 20.1% .290 110 3.91 91 0.6
Jordan Hicks 60.3 10.0 5.1 0.7 13.0% 25.6% .267 110 3.90 91 1.0
Andre Pallante 100.3 6.7 3.4 0.9 8.7% 17.2% .290 107 4.18 93 1.5
Steven Matz 97.0 8.7 2.6 1.2 6.9% 23.1% .296 106 3.95 94 1.5
Miles Mikolas 156.0 6.7 1.8 1.2 5.0% 18.0% .280 105 4.17 95 2.3
Jacob Bosiokovic 40.7 9.3 4.0 0.9 10.2% 23.7% .287 105 3.92 96 0.2
Kodi Whitley 50.0 8.3 3.8 1.1 9.8% 21.4% .286 104 4.19 96 0.2
Matthew Liberatore 141.0 7.7 3.0 1.0 7.9% 20.3% .284 103 3.99 97 1.9
Zack Thompson 85.0 8.0 3.8 1.0 9.9% 20.8% .276 101 4.19 99 0.9
Jake Walsh 18.3 9.8 3.9 1.5 10.3% 25.6% .261 100 4.57 100 0.1
Connor Thomas 128.3 6.1 2.5 0.9 6.5% 16.1% .285 100 4.12 100 1.7
Jake Woodford 98.0 6.3 3.4 0.9 8.8% 16.4% .281 100 4.36 100 1.0
Adam Wainwright 154.7 6.8 2.7 1.2 7.1% 17.8% .287 100 4.45 100 1.9
Dakota Hudson 144.7 5.8 3.7 0.9 9.5% 14.8% .279 99 4.63 101 1.7
Génesis Cabrera 70.0 8.1 3.6 1.0 9.3% 20.9% .279 99 4.25 101 0.5
Zach McAllister 51.3 9.6 3.9 1.1 10.0% 24.9% .299 94 4.22 106 0.1
Packy Naughton 85.3 7.2 2.3 1.2 6.1% 18.8% .295 98 4.08 102 1.0
Wilking Rodriguez 22.3 8.1 4.4 0.8 11.3% 20.6% .286 98 4.14 102 0.1
Blake Parker 35.7 8.8 4.0 1.3 10.3% 22.6% .278 98 4.53 103 0.0
JoJo Romero 71.3 8.6 3.8 1.3 9.7% 22.0% .291 98 4.46 103 0.8
Andre Granillo 49.0 9.4 5.1 1.1 12.7% 23.2% .285 97 4.38 103 0.0
Connor Lunn 93.3 6.6 2.2 1.2 5.9% 17.3% .286 97 4.27 103 1.1
Alex Reyes 44.3 10.4 6.3 1.0 15.4% 25.4% .269 97 4.48 103 0.2
Freddy Pacheco 52.3 10.5 5.2 1.2 12.9% 26.3% .279 95 4.40 105 0.0
Gianluca Dalatri 41.3 8.7 4.1 1.3 10.6% 22.3% .283 95 4.77 105 0.0
Tommy Parsons 108.3 6.8 3.4 1.2 8.8% 17.6% .279 95 4.60 105 1.0
Michael McGreevy 136.7 5.6 2.9 1.2 7.5% 14.5% .280 93 4.61 107 1.3
Brandon Waddell 51.0 8.3 4.2 1.2 10.6% 20.8% .297 93 4.57 108 0.3
James Naile 82.0 6.0 2.9 1.1 7.3% 15.4% .291 92 4.53 109 0.4
Gordon Graceffo 126.0 6.2 2.7 1.2 7.1% 16.3% .266 92 4.55 109 1.1
Dalton Roach 92.3 7.0 2.7 1.4 7.1% 18.3% .288 92 4.60 109 0.7
Kyle Ryan 44.0 6.1 4.3 1.0 10.7% 15.3% .283 92 4.84 109 -0.1
Zane Mills 134.0 4.6 2.6 1.1 6.6% 12.0% .283 92 4.68 109 1.1
Kenny Hernandez 89.7 5.8 3.2 1.2 8.2% 14.8% .287 91 4.77 110 0.6
Guillermo Zuniga 50.7 8.9 4.4 1.4 11.0% 22.0% .283 89 4.83 113 -0.2
Logan Gragg 90.3 5.7 2.6 1.3 6.7% 14.8% .286 88 4.79 114 0.5
Drew VerHagen 62.0 7.4 3.3 1.3 8.5% 18.9% .301 88 4.70 114 0.3
Edgar Escobar 99.7 6.1 3.5 1.3 9.0% 15.6% .283 87 4.97 115 0.5
Johan Quezada 49.7 8.2 5.3 1.3 12.6% 19.6% .291 87 5.05 115 -0.2
Brandon Komar 91.0 6.4 4.1 1.2 10.2% 16.1% .285 77 4.89 130 -0.3
Grant Black 64.7 6.4 4.2 1.3 10.3% 15.9% .289 86 5.07 117 0.0
John Beller 58.7 8.0 4.8 1.4 11.7% 19.5% .286 86 5.06 117 0.2
Kyle Leahy 117.7 6.3 3.9 1.3 9.7% 15.8% .293 84 5.02 118 0.5
Garrett Williams 70.3 9.2 5.8 1.2 14.2% 22.6% .280 83 5.12 120 0.2
Jose Martinez 65.0 5.4 3.9 1.5 9.5% 13.2% .294 79 5.72 127 -0.1
Michael YaSenka 62.3 7.1 4.9 1.4 12.0% 17.3% .285 78 5.50 128 -0.2
Edgar Gonzalez 60.0 6.9 5.4 1.8 12.6% 16.1% .299 71 6.17 141 -0.5
Griffin Roberts 42.3 7.2 6.8 1.7 15.6% 16.6% .286 62 7.12 162 -0.9

Pitchers – Top Near-Age Comps and Percentiles
Player Pit Comp 1 Pit Comp 2 Pit Comp 3 80th WAR 20th WAR 80th ERA 20th ERA
Giovanny Gallegos Jeff Montgomery Mel Rojas Gene Garber 1.7 0.0 2.33 4.87
Ryan Helsley Ricky Bottalico Frank Francisco Daniel Bard 1.7 0.2 2.38 4.39
Jordan Montgomery Jim Kaat Jose Quintana Vida Blue 4.1 2.0 2.87 3.93
Jack Flaherty Elmer Riddle Buzz Capra Sam Gray 2.7 1.2 2.87 4.06
Chris Stratton Hansel Izquierdo Chris Nichting Roberto Giron 1.1 0.0 2.98 4.21
Ryan Loutos Ramon Troncoso Dan Burns Rick Baldwin 1.0 0.2 3.04 4.08
Jordan Hicks Bryce Florie Doug Bochtler Jack Banta 1.6 0.2 2.99 4.61
Andre Pallante Bill Abernathie Jeff Samardzija Roy Thomas 2.0 0.8 3.32 4.09
Steven Matz Johnny Podres Chris Short Gary Peters 2.2 0.6 3.16 4.46
Miles Mikolas Jeremy Guthrie Iván Nova 노바 Jeff Samardzija 3.3 1.4 3.34 4.25
Jacob Bosiokovic Rocky Cherry Floyd Weaver Jose Paniagua 0.6 -0.2 3.14 4.67
Kodi Whitley Jim Austin Daryl Patterson Rocky Cherry 0.6 -0.3 3.23 4.58
Matthew Liberatore Jim Abbott Kolby Allard Edwin Escobar 2.8 0.9 3.41 4.42
Zack Thompson Tony Ferreira Jeff Musselman Pedro Martinez 1.6 0.2 3.35 4.44
Jake Walsh Ray Harrell Johnny Humphries Dick Drott 0.2 -0.1 3.22 4.68
Connor Thomas Jeff Ballard Tom Burgmeier John Rheinecker 2.4 0.9 3.52 4.45
Jake Woodford Chuck Fore Zach Miner Jim Hannan 1.5 0.4 3.51 4.43
Adam Wainwright Derek Lowe R.A. Dickey Steve Sparks 2.7 0.9 3.44 4.60
Dakota Hudson Mike Torrez Jamey Wright Chi Chi Gonzalez 2.5 0.8 3.60 4.47
Génesis Cabrera Kenny Rogers Arnie Munoz Sam Freeman 1.0 -0.1 3.42 4.61
Zach McAllister Dick Tidrow Tony Pena Josh Kinney 0.6 -0.4 3.57 5.44
Packy Naughton Derek Lilliquist Kerry Knox Matt Tomshaw 1.5 0.2 3.55 4.65
Wilking Rodriguez Cecil Upshaw Lou Koupal Dooley Womack 0.3 -0.1 3.42 4.87
Blake Parker Tom Gordon Turk Lown Earl Caldwell 0.4 -0.4 3.21 5.12
JoJo Romero Larry Thomas Sean Lawrence Shawn Barton 1.3 0.1 3.46 4.81
Andre Granillo Al McBean Dan Boitano Emiliano Rivera 0.5 -0.5 3.45 4.80
Connor Lunn Bob Hallas Ed Lynch Gil Heredia 1.6 0.4 3.61 4.68
Alex Reyes Doug Bochtler Charlie Hough Michael Kohn 0.7 -0.4 3.45 5.16
Freddy Pacheco Frank Francisco Chad Sobotka Mike Konderla 0.5 -0.6 3.44 5.06
Gianluca Dalatri Vernon Temple Lamar Jones Darren Balsley 0.3 -0.3 3.58 4.76
Tommy Parsons Paul Robinson Braden Shipley Bob Harris 1.7 0.3 3.72 4.64
Michael McGreevy Zeke Spruill 지크 Rich Hunter Peter Lambert 2.0 0.5 3.81 4.68
Brandon Waddell Eric Berger Chester Vincent Lucas Luetge 0.7 -0.2 3.67 4.99
James Naile Felipe Lira Garland Shifflett David Martinez 0.9 -0.2 3.85 4.83
Gordon Graceffo John Wasdin Jaime Barria Ricky Bones 1.9 0.4 3.83 4.74
Dalton Roach Chuck Stanhope Greg Beck Don Wengert 1.3 0.0 3.76 4.86
Kyle Ryan Roberto Rivera Pedro Martinez Mike Gallo 0.2 -0.5 3.76 5.04
Zane Mills Ariel Jurado Edwin Corps Andrew Walker 1.7 0.4 3.94 4.74
Kenny Hernandez Oscar Alvarez Raymond Cordeiro Matt Crouse 1.1 0.0 3.92 4.91
Guillermo Zuniga Matt Skrmetta Tracy Thorpe Grant Gavin 0.3 -0.6 3.83 5.06
Logan Gragg Jason Jones Brian Wolfe Jesse Hernandez 1.1 -0.1 4.04 5.05
Drew VerHagen Dick Strahs Mike Johnson Lawrence Manier 0.8 -0.1 3.89 5.05
Edgar Escobar Chris Jensen John Webb Luis Munoz 1.1 -0.2 4.07 5.02
Johan Quezada Steve Cline Lee Marcheskie Aaron Pullin 0.2 -0.7 3.96 5.40
Brandon Komar George Gerberman Dakota Bacus Gary Groce 0.3 -1.0 4.53 5.55
Grant Black Theodore Ellis Tommy Shimp Marshall Long 0.4 -0.6 4.12 5.33
John Beller Todd Hall Sid Akins Chris Siegfried 0.7 -0.3 4.00 5.22
Kyle Leahy Scott Blewett Phillips Valdez Jake Esch 1.1 -0.3 4.29 5.19
Garrett Williams Brent Leach Andrew Miller Tim Birtsas 0.7 -0.6 4.12 5.58
Jose Martinez Rick Pierini Brady Dragmire Johnny Rodriguez 0.3 -0.5 4.80 5.85
Michael YaSenka Gregory McSparran Esteban Maldonado Matt Solter 0.3 -0.7 4.52 5.70
Edgar Gonzalez Matt Burch Stephen Harrold Bret Helton 0.0 -1.1 4.95 6.32
Griffin Roberts Mark Hampton Justin Jackson Luz Portobanco -0.5 -1.4 5.70 7.36

Players are listed with their most recent teams wherever possible. This includes players who are unsigned or have retired, players who will miss 2023 due to injury, and players who were released in 2022. So yes, if you see Joe Schmoe, who quit baseball back in August to form a Norwegian Death Dixieland Bubblegum Ska-Funk band, he’s still listed here intentionally. ZiPS is assuming a league with an ERA of 4.22, above 2022’s level of offense but lower than other years. Pitchers who appear to have a fairly definite change in the majors from start-to-relief or vice-versa from these projections will receive reconfigured updates in the spring.

Hitters are ranked by zWAR, which is to say, WAR values as calculated by me, Dan Szymborski, whose surname is spelled with a z. WAR values might differ slightly from those that appear in the full release of ZiPS. Finally, I will advise anyone against — and might karate chop anyone guilty of — merely adding up WAR totals on a depth chart to produce projected team WAR.

As always, incorrect projections are either caused by flaws in the physical reality of the universe or by skillful sabotage of our friend and former editor. You can, however, still get mad at me on Twitter.





Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.

122 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
MorboTheAnnihilator
3 years ago

Definitely haven’t been refreshing all morning waiting for this to post

leftycurve66
3 years ago

I feel like Willson Contreras and Nootbaar and O’Neill are being understated when you say they have no “exciting” players outside of Arenado and Goldschmidt. But I’m speaking from a fans perspective, I know the media tends to lump all Cardinals players as “boring”.

Mahoney
3 years ago
Reply to  leftycurve66

Ironically, the vibe I get from Dan’s writeup is that this iteration of Cardinals, as a whole, is one of the most exciting in baseball.

Luy
3 years ago
Reply to  leftycurve66

Good and exciting are different things.
What’s “exciting” about Nootbaar and O’Neill? They each project to be above average.
One has a cool name. And the other is jacked. Does that count as exciting?

belkiolleMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Luy

Both are fast, hustle, etc. They’re exciting to watch play.

jasonl
3 years ago
Reply to  Luy

I mean, O’Neill can hit the ball a million miles and is also 97% in sprint speed, plays great defense. I’m not sure what else you look for in an “exciting” player. He’s one year removed from a 5.5 WAR season and was hurt most of last year

MarkZMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  jasonl

I consider any MLBer who can hop in a wrestling ring exciting.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  MarkZ

Wait, was that shirtless Bartolo Colon?!

No sorry, just Kamala the Ugandan giant…

rmgxt9
3 years ago
Reply to  Luy

look at Nootbaar’s savant page. seems pretty exciting to me. He was never really a prospect despite great zone control and discipline because he didn’t hit for power. Then last year he started hitting the ball much harder. Maybe he’ll crash back to earth this year, but if he picks up where he left off last year he has huge upside.

Cordane61273Member since 2020
3 years ago

I think we can safely assume Yadier Molina is not going to suit up for the Cardinals this year.

raregokusMember since 2022
3 years ago
Reply to  Cordane61273

RTFA:

“Players are listed with their most recent teams wherever possible. This includes players who are unsigned or have retired, players who will miss 2023 due to injury, and players who were released in 2022. So yes, if you see Joe Schmoe, who quit baseball back in August to form a Norwegian Death Dixieland Bubblegum Ska-Funk band, he’s still listed here intentionally.”

snakestl
3 years ago
Reply to  raregokus

I get that, but where is a Pujols projection?

snakestl
3 years ago
Reply to  snakestl

OK, Dan posted it in the chat. “on Pujols, I haven’t re-run it to make sure nothing screwed up, but his initial projection was .249/.309/.441, 107 OPS+, 0.8 WAR as a DH in like 350 PA”

TransmissionMember since 2017
3 years ago

The Tyler O’Neill Top Near-Age Offensive Comp. is proof that God reads FanGraphs and has a sense of humor.

techzero
3 years ago
Reply to  Transmission

In case anyone doesn’t get this, it’s because TON was traded to the Cards for Marco Gonzalez, and the Jays just traded for Teoscar Hernández.

formerly matt wMember since 2025
3 years ago
Reply to  techzero

? The Mariners traded Tyler O’Neill to the Cardinals for one player, and now they traded a completely different player to the Jays for Teoscar Hernandez, and this is supposed to be funny to me?

techzero
3 years ago

I guess if your sense of humor withered off at the first touch of sunlight and happiness, no.

Last edited 3 years ago by techzero
Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Transmission

I find it more amusing that Goldschmidt’s top two comps are Pedro Guerrero and then Lou freakin’ Gehrig! I mean, Guerrero had a nice career (and even cameoed in the movie “Rookie of the Year”), but to put him on such a list next to arguably the best 1B in MLB history is kind of hilarious.

Although, sadly, the reason why Gehrig is listed as a comp here is that his Age 35 season was a huge down year for him (relatively speaking), as he was already being affected by ALS before he retired and died the next year.

AndyMember since 2026
3 years ago

Question: I see an Alex Reyes projection here. Is he still with the team?

Comment: Packy Naughton is my new favorite player name

Number20
3 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Cardinals didn’t offer him a contract, he’s currently an unsigned free agent.

lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  Andy

I think Packy Naughton was closing games for the Gashouse Gang.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

Or, one person independently made the joke and 11 co-opted it as their own creation! 😀

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

After yesterday’s conversation about Teoscar Hernandez and his various virtues and issues, I find it quite funny that he is O’Neill’s top comp.

Last edited 3 years ago by sadtrombone
Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Hernandez would indeed be the worst player on this team

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

In the starting lineup, yes. Although I have to question the wisdom of that Paul deJong projection, and it’s pretty close with Donovan.

belkiolleMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Donovan’s batted ball profile is volatile. He has no pop whatsoever so he lacks the ability to create his own “luck” on balls in play and he makes very little solid contact. He’s Jon Jay without the HBPs. If he doesn’t run an elevated BABIP his bat will be unplayable.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  belkiolle

Jon Jay still regularly posted batting averages above .290, which allowed for very nice OBPs even without counting his HBPs. Donovan could have a similar profile, and he at least makes much more contact than DeJong has his past three seasons.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  belkiolle

I mean he’s definitely the kind of guy you would rather have as a super-utility type than as an everyday second baseman. What he did last year wasn’t a “fluke” exactly, since he only beat his xwOBA by .10. But it’s so hard to keep hitting balls like that. So it doesn’t mean he will do it again.

The main part of his profile is his ability to control the strike zone. If his BABIP drops to more normal levels he’s probably Tony Kemp, a 2-WAR-ish guy who hits single digit home runs and plays a couple of positions badly.

jasonl
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I feel like you’re overstating his defense issues. He’s not a plus but its not like he’s a huge negative

techzero
3 years ago
Reply to  belkiolle

I can’t find the article, but I think it was on stltoday.com a little while back. Donovan talked about how he had worked with Jeff Albert to change his stance to be more upright and change his load so his swing plane was more catered to line drive rates.

He’s aware he has no pop and worked to change his hitting style to be productive.

EDIT: Ha, it was this very site, yeesh:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/cardinals-rookie-brendan-donovan-believes-in-line-drives/

Last edited 3 years ago by techzero
shampain
3 years ago
Reply to  belkiolle

He’s Jon Jay without the HBP, but with double the BB%, and he can play every IF position at least competently. Seems pretty useful to have a guy like that — with an Edgar Martinez comp! — as a part-time starter/super-utility guy/injury insurance.

I watched him a lot last year. Pitchers were getting visibly annoyed with him (again: as a rookie, with a very non-intimidating hitting profile). If he’d qualified, he would’ve been in the top-10 in pitches seen per plate appearance, tied with Juan Soto and Cody Bellinger, a little ahead of Paul Goldschmidt.

Being able to do that without being a power threat is a positive sign for him. Lots of folks are dismissing him in ways similar to how Matt Carpenter was dismissed when he first came up. Donovan is unlikely to ever be that good at hitting, but he’s better at everything else than Carpenter was. Carpenter made adjustments, and I’m sure Donovan will too. Don’t be surprised if he pops a 4 or even 5 WAR season at some point, surrounded by a string of 2-3 WAR seasons until he ages out.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  shampain

Carpenter had quite a bit more power, though. Even before he unlocked his home run swing, he was still hitting a ton of doubles.

shampain
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Carp didn’t arrive in MLB as a doubles machine, he developed into one (and then developed from there into a HR hitter).

It’s probably not as big of a difference as you think. Overall, Donovan has slightly higher OBPs and slightly lower ISOs than Carpenter at the same ages. Carpenter did have one outlier season for 2B in MLB, but it wasn’t something he ever did on a year-to-year basis. If you track their performances at the same ages, Donovan’s putting up similar 2B numbers to Carpenter. He still has opportunities to improve, as Carpenter did into his late-20s, especially considering the lost developmental year for him in 2020.

Donovan would benefit from adding more doubles, to be sure. If he ever wants to have a 7-WAR season like Carpenter did (once) then that will be necessary. But he can still be a very useful player with a very Carpenter-esque career trajectory if he just keeps doing what he’s been doing.

Last edited 3 years ago by shampain
GreggMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Dan’s silence on how Tyler O’Neill actually sucks is deafening! Say it, Dan! Just say it!

lavarnway
3 years ago

The Cardinals are so consistently solid.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

I gotta be real, I’m thinking that “the Cardinals only have two players who posted wRC+’s greater than 150 last year” is a terribly compelling statement. Maybe it’s just that ZiPs is down on those two or something. But there are only three other teams that have a top-two set of hitters that are this exciting specifically on the offensive performance side (Astros, Dodgers, Padres) and among those it’s not like the Dodgers have a third offensive juggernaut either.

I think there’s a conversation to be had about whether the Mets or Blue Jays or Braves with their wider array of slightly-less-dominant mashers is somehow more compelling but this lineup looks more than fine to me. Especially since that doesn’t bring the defense, which if Carlson continues to perform well in CF and Edman continues being awesome at SS is probably a top 3 defensive outfit in the league, even with Contreras behind the plate. If there are issues with the Cardinals, they are definitely not on the position player side.

FrancoeursteinMember since 2025
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I wouldn’t say the Jays or Braves have “less dominant mashers” Some combination of Riley, Olson, or Acuna could outperform those too. Same for Vlad, Springer, Bichette

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Top 3? I’d say top 1 on defense.

Kevbot034
3 years ago

Is Nolan Gorman no longer considered a major component here anymore then? He didn’t get much mention, ZiPS doesn’t seem enthused. Arenado has his real position and Walker may have surpassed him for LF already (this 2B thing isn’t gonna work out for much longer, surely).

Also really shocked at those Burleson projections. Better than Nootbar? Better than Yepez?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevbot034

ZiPS seems to be really high on Burleson’s defense and somehow is projecting him for more PAs than Nootbaar.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevbot034

I would also tend to agree that Gorman is the odd man out in this group. He’s just not good enough at second base, 3B and 1B are taken, it’s not obvious as a hitter that he will profile at DH, and I’m not sure that his range will play in the corner outfield. It’s too bad because they could really use another left handed hitter but the emergence of Nootbaar gives them an everyday left-handed guy in the lineup and Donovan is less awful at 2B. And Burleson is waiting in the wings too.

Yepez is also kind of in the same boat, but ZiPS seems to see more in him. It’s not clear he will hit enough to profile at DH and he really should not be playing the field anymore unless Goldschmidt is hurt, but ZiPS seems to be much higher on him as a hitter so I’d probably run him out as the primary DH and stop moving him all over the place and see what happens.

I do think that Donovan is also a bit of an imperfect fit on this team since he’s probably also best at third base but he’s just a better defender than Gorman. He does largely the same things that Gorman does in the field, but he’s just better at all of them. And if Winn forces himself to the big leagues in 2024 or whenever you could just bump Donovan back into the utility role.

All three of these guys could, in the right circumstances, have more value to other teams than the Cardinals. But I do think Yepez and Donovan have more obvious roles here than Gorman, who needs regular reps at a single position and regular PAs to get better.

burts_beadsMember since 2025
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I’m certainly inclined to think “I’ll believe it when I see it” in terms of Gorman developing into an impact bat.

techzero
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yep, Gorman was part of the reported trade package to the A’s for Murphy. These other guys have come up with fans as potential options to be shipped out, as there are a fair number of imperfect fits for the team. I think we’re going to hang on to them for now, and hopefully package them with others if a deadline deal is needed.

Jon SealsMember since 2018
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I would stop playing Gorman at second base and put him into a crowded DH/LF role. He’s got to be better out there than Yepez.

One or two of these outfielders must be traded.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Seals

Unless the Cards want to sell low on O’Neill (or think he’s broken and won’t recover enough), I think that guy is Gorman.
-Now that Bader is gone, Carlson is the undisputed CFer
-Nootbaar is their best left handed hitter (as a lefty)
-Donovan has positional versatility and is probably the 2nd baseman for now anyway
-Burleson is a left-handed hitter and is needed if O’Neill is bad again
-Unless another elite player with team control like Soto hits the market it seems unlikely they’ll get fair value for Walker (#6 prospect at MLB pipeline)
-Moises Gomez probably doesn’t have any trade value (if he did, then the Cards should trade him immediately).

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I tend to agree, and would take reasonable odds that Gorman is a Marlin before spring training.

Number20
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I don’t think Carlson is the undisputed CFer. The Club said that next year’s CFer will be determined in Spring Training, which is a departure from previous confidence in Carlson statements. They used four players in CF down the stretch. Carlson had a wrist injury though also. And he’s young.

I think Noot’s playing time is under projected because he didn’t really start until the second half and then he got the most playing time in outfield of any player. He went from sixth outfielder to first. Season stats make it look like he’s a part-timer, but the direction of travel suggests the team entered the off-season really big on him. ZiPS projects him as their best outfielder on a rate-basis.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Well, they do have the DH now. In fact, a Gorman/Yepez DH platoon sounds really good, likely even better than the Pujols / lefty of the day DH platoon from last year.

Although, Gorman did get exposed last year, so there’s also a good chance he starts the season in AAA.

Last edited 3 years ago by Lanidrac
shampain
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Yeah… lots of folks giving up on Gorman, who was an above-average MLB hitter in his age-22 season and doesn’t turn 23 until May. Gorman’s profile compares pretty favorably with guys like Austin Riley (one of his ZIPS comps).

Having guys like that as near-afterthoughts is why this team is very, very intriguing. Oh, O’Neill can’t stay healthy? Here’s Burleson to plug in; he’s got the same projection. Edman gets hurt? Slide Donovan over to SS, plug in Gorman at 2B, use Kramer Robertson (or Paul DeJong) as a defensive replacement in the late innings, and it’s possible that the team is actually *better* in that scenario.

CromulentMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevbot034

I feel like this might be a dumb question but how are Gorman and Donovan both projected at 500+ AB if they are likewise projected to split time at 2B?

Number20
3 years ago
Reply to  Cromulent

ZiPS is projecting that they would both be full time or near full time players on a generic team given their past production. It doesn’t dictate how the Cardinals are going to assign playing time, that’s for them to decide or us to argue about.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Number20

That still doesn’t explain the 480 PA they’re projecting for DeJong. At this point, DeJong is a bench player on the majority of MLB teams unless/until the very unlikely situation occurs where he actually manages to learn how to hit again.

catmanwayne
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevbot034

The Cardinals lack that true ace pitcher. Lots of decent/good arms, but they need that dominant starter if they want to get through the first round of playoffs. Wonder if they’ll package Gorman and a couple of others in a trade for an ace midseason.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  catmanwayne

Flaherty could be that guy, and if not, Mikolas is already a pretty good ace.

Don’t forget that the starting pitching actually did very well in those two playoff games against the Phillies last year, as well as in the Wild Card game against the Dodgers in 2021.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  catmanwayne

those “couple others” would probably need to do a lot of work.

Maybe a team does unexpectedly badly and starts selling, but most of these guys are under team control for so long it’s hard to imagine, and the ones who aren’t like Aaron Nola play for teams where they’d rather try to extend them (Ohtani actually falls under this category, despite the obvious folly of thinking he will sign on the dotted line). The only ones I can think of are Tyler Glasnow and Shane Bieber, and (1) neither of those teams are projected to be out of it and so they’d have to really struggle and (2) if those teams are out of it those guys may no longer be aces.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

Someone asked me once how I thought a team would do if we could stack the Brewers and the Cardinals together in a single team. I think generally any team like that would be a title contender, but I’m pretty confident that would be the best team in the league and I’m not sure it would be close. You would have a truly absurd superteam. Montgomery would be their 4th or maybe even 5th starter, Adames would bump Edman back to second and Donovan back into a super utility role, and Contreras would back up Contreras.

In fact, I’m actually thinking that if you took the Cards’ position players and the Brewers’ starters and mixed the bullpens that this would still be the best team in the league. It’s remarkable how the Brewers’ excellence in the rotation and rather drab competency in the lineup is mirrored by the Cards’ excellence on the position player side and drab competency in the rotation. I think the Cards are probably the better team here but it’s just interesting that they’re mirror images of each other.

JediHoyer
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think if you combined any 2 borderline playoff teams you would have at least a title contender.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  JediHoyer

This sounds like a challenge to find a case where it isn’t true, and I am here for it. Although it does depend a bit on what you mean by “borderline playoff team” and “title contender”.

For example: If you combined the Marlins and Giants, I don’t think you would have a title contender. Same with the D-Backs and Orioles. But maybe they’re not “borderline.”

Last edited 3 years ago by sadtrombone
whiptydojoe
3 years ago
Reply to  JediHoyer

Yeah, I agree; this isn’t exactly a novel thought experiment.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  whiptydojoe

I mean, you’re right in the sense that teams typically have enough flexibility to move things around to accommodate their stars and/or accumulate ridiculous depth to guard against injuries. What’s interesting about this is that you don’t have to do that at all. There is almost zero wasted potential.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Although, if O’Neill rebounds, you might have Yelich riding the bench, which would’ve been unthinkable in 2019.

techzero
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think the Cardinals are kind of hoping for a pitching development renaissance now that they’re starting to get results from their makeshift pitching lab in Jupiter and Dusty Blake is the pitching coach. I think we’re starting to see a few changes in their pitching philosophy the past few years, especially since we missed draft picks in 2017, pretty much the entire 2018 pitching draft class was injured or busted, and Zack Thompson, for whatever reason, seems to be slated for the bullpen this year. That followed by the pandemic issues everyone had really impacted our ability to develop from within, hence the dumpster diving in 2021 and the Monty/Q deadline deals last year.

Again, I’m hoping that we’re seeing a change here. Dakota Hudson started talking recently about pitch shapes, and that made me cheer. We’re not rushing Tink Hence and Alec Willis, since they’re such young arms, and are instead focusing on building them up physically and limiting innings on the field.

I’m not saying we’ll get close to the level of the Brewers or anything like that, just that we’re starting to see the results of some changes that were made a few years ago.

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
3 years ago
Reply to  techzero

Well said.
I particularly agree on Hence & Willis; very encouraging to see how cautiously they’re being developed. (Willis is one of my two favorite low minors sleepers, along with Axiel Plaz of the Bucs.)

One question, though. Why would Zack Thompson *not* remain in the MLB bullpen? As a starter, his minor league ERAs were terrible (just under 6.00 for his minor league career, and 6.21 across 145 Triple-A innings). So an ERA just over 2.00 and FIP in the 3’s in a major league relief role seems a pretty persuasive argument for fulltime bullpen work. I’m persuaded, anyway.

techzero
3 years ago

I just think that given his 2019 (rode hard in college, then nothing with the Cards), lost 2020, uneven 2021 training (the Cards really screwed up with their pitching development this year and pushed people way too hard; there was an article on STLToday where Mo and LeVeque talked about it), and an up and down 2022 (minors and majors, starting and relieving, etc.) just hasn’t given him the kind of development time that he needs. Prospect development isn’t linear, and I don’t think he’s done.

I’d like to see another year of him starting in the AAA rotation with feedback about his pitch shapes/mix from the lab. If Genesis Cabrera can get back to what he was before, he’ll definitely be in the bullpen, but that does leave us without a second lefty (no idea if Packy Naughton or Jojo Romero will be part of anything), so I’m assuming he’ll be in the major league bullpen. I just want more time for him to develop as a starter.

Side note: After my post above, I read Jeff Jones (Belleville News Democrat) article today on the Cards breaking ground on a new pitching lab within the Jupiter facility (not across from it, like they have now) after spring training. It also had some good quotes from Hudson and Matz. Guess we finally convinced the Marlins to upgrade their facilities, too!

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
3 years ago
Reply to  techzero

Thanks for responding; I checked the News Democrat article and it’s a good one.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Maybe the challenge is to find 2 ~.500 teams that make a title contender. Rangers + Twins?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

The Rangers and Twins both project for more than 40 WAR on the Depth Charts page, so I’m not sure that’s ambitious enough. What about two teams that are absolutely not wild-card level? The Red Sox and Giants are kind of close to the edge, but I’d accept them. So maybe make a team with a good shot of making the playoffs and/or a title contender out of two of the following:
Red Sox
Giants
Marlins
Orioles
Cubs
Pirates
D-Backs
Royals
Tigers
A’s
Nationals
Reds
Rockies

Or something like that?

Or maybe, near the bottom of the list: How many of these teams do you have to combine together to make a title contender?

fanofthemanMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Sounds like a great article concept

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

You could definitely make one with the Marlins’ pitching and the Orioles position players. Marlins pitching and D’backs position players would probably work too.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

I think you would get extra points too for just pitching from one team and hitting from another. Or maybe broken down by infield / outfield / starters / relievers.

But I’m pretty well convinced that the Marlins starters are going to be part of most of the successful matches, and matching up with the Orioles’ position players is a great fit.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The Cardinals are more than just “drab competency” in the rotation. While they don’t have anyone as good as Burnes or Woodruff (unless Flaherty fully rebounds), Mikolas is just as good as Peralta, and I’d take Montgomery over Lauer and Wainwright over Houser.

The Brewers do have a significantly better rotation, but the gap isn’t nearly as wide as the reverse gap between the offenses.

shampain
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I don’t even know if the Brewers rotation is significantly better at this point. The Brewers’ rotation was less than 2 fWAR better than the Cardinals in 2022, and fWAR gives credit to the defense for the contact-oriented strategies the Cardinals were pursuing, when that works, but penalizes the pitcher when it doesn’t work. It’s a statistic that is designed to underrate the Cards pitchers and overrate the Brewers pitchers. It’s plausible that the rotations were roughly equivalent w/r/t winning actual baseball games last year, and last year the Cardinals rotation was a disappointment.

Yes, the Brewers had injuries, but the Burnes/Woodruff/Peralta trio still threw over 425 innings; you can’t bank on more than that. The Cards’ rotation had more injuries, and Monty didn’t join the rotation until August. The Brewers lack of depth is still a concern, the Cards haven’t had this much pitching depth since those mid-2010s teams that made the NLCS every year.

The big Q with the pitching, IMO, is whether the drop-off from Yadi to Contreras is significant. It seems that with Yadi out of the picture the org is moving to more of a data-driven pitching philosophy, which IMO is not likely to make everyone worse. But actually implementing that successfully, with a new coaching staff and new pitch-caller, is not guaranteed.

JayMember since 2023
3 years ago

Thanks as always Dan. I agree with you that this is a 2nd tier WS contender and they need a true ace in order to be in the same conversation as the big boys, though I’m happy to see that ZiPS disagrees. The good news is they have a lot of depth and a good farm, so they should be able to make a deadline deal.

I believe you use Fangraphs’ Depth Charts for playing time projections, so maybe this isn’t a ZiPS thing, but I just can’t figure out why Nootbaar is projected for so few PAs. He doesn’t have an injury history. His PAs were low the last 2 years because he was supposed to be a 4th OF and it took the Cardinals a while to come around to the realization that he’s one of the best hitters on the team. But they traded Bader at the deadline to open a starting spot for him and he rewarded them by being one of the best players in the NL in the second half. They’ve been very clear all offseason that he’s their starting RF. I understand projection systems not buying into him being the ~140 wRC+ player we saw after he became a starter (though his Statcast numbers make me giddy) but I think he’ll be slotted into one of the top 2 spots in the lineup every day and should end up one of the team leaders in PAs.

belkiolleMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Jay

It didn’t take them that long. He literally didn’t make his swing changes until the 2022 offseason. He may be one of the best hitters on the team if those changes are still there but his track record before the changes was 4th OFer all the way.

JayMember since 2023
3 years ago
Reply to  belkiolle

That’s not true. His swing changes happened during the 2020 Covid pause. He raked at AAA in 2021 then raked in the majors in 2022.

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
3 years ago
Reply to  belkiolle

I wouldn’t say 4th OFer “all the way.”
I think it’s worth noting that Nootbaar’s professional track record is *highly* idiosyncratic because he was never at any minor league level for more than 160 plate appearances. Aggressive promotions, a year lost to Covid, a couple minor injuries — all had an effect.

Anyway, in High-A and Double-A he did indeed look like a future 4th outfielder with a wRC+ of 104 and 101 in 155 and 110 PA’s, respectively. But in Triple-A and Low-A he posted strong 140 and 128 wRC+ tallies, respectively, with excellent plate discipline support.

Again, that 140 wRC+ is from Triple-A, at age 23, despite missing the entire 2020 minor league season due to Covid restrictions, and with sturdy BB/K numbers. That typically portends a starting role, maybe even starring.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
3 years ago

The last time the Cardinals ranked worse than 20th in baseball in wRC+ was in 1978.

This is cuckoopants.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

The more you dig into it, it really is cuckoopants. They haven’t lost 90 games or more since 1990–and consistent with what is mentioned here, that’s the only time they’ve lost 90 games or more since 1978. They’ve only lost 90 games three times since the league went to 162 games.

They have had only one losing season this century (2007) and even then they won 78 games. Between 1979 and the present, I only count 8 losing seasons in total.

AnonMember since 2025
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

You can even extend it further back than that given how great the Cards were in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s:

1990 and 1978 are the only seasons where the Cards have lost more than 90 games. . . .since 1916

Granted, it was only 154 games prior to 1962 but even with that there was only a few other seasons where they might have eclipsed 90 (1995 would have been close, 1924, 1919 and 1918, with the latter 2 being war shortened years where they almost certainly go over 90 losses)

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Anon

Also, 1990 is the only time they’ve finished in last place in their division/league since 1918.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Gross oversimplification alert:

It does make me wonder if the lesson we should be taking from their consistent success is that building around hitting is the way to go.

lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

This is why their fans act the way they do. They’re annoying, sure, but they EXPECT to win. Every person in the organization and fanbase is committed to putting a winning product on the field. The fans support their team by wearing gear and showing up at games. The team “plays the game the right way” and they consistently win ballgames.

docgooden85Member since 2018
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

“plays the game the right way”

Are you Brian McCann & John Smoltz? No thanks (barf at that worn Cards cliche)

Last edited 3 years ago by docgooden85
lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  docgooden85

I put that in quotes as a means of hopefully showing sarcasm haha. I hate the Cardinals.

TransmissionMember since 2017
3 years ago

That ’78 team had Peak Ted Simmons, Keith Hernandez, George Hendrick, and then just nothing. Mike Tyson and Lou Brock combined for nearly -4 WAR, wow.

jasonl
3 years ago
Reply to  Transmission

That’s what happens when you try to get a 12 year old boxer to play Major League Baseball

techzero
3 years ago

A year or two ago, someone counted up all the days we were out of playoff contention (i.e., meaningless games) in the 21st century, and I think the number was ~15 or under.

Glengarry Glenn Braggs
3 years ago
Reply to  techzero

Yeah, the Cardinals do seem to have a knack for not sucking. They’ve finished over .500 for 15 years in a row (an NL record), and 22 of the last 23 years. Every team in the NL has finished with the worst record in the league at least once since 1990, except the Cardinals, who last did so… in 1918! They’re sometimes mediocre, sometimes boring, but never downright terrible.  

Lanidrac
3 years ago

Although, they were next to last (and last place in the NL East) in 1990 itself.

Glengarry Glenn Braggs
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Shhh! I’m trying to shoehorn real life into a cool-sounding factoid! The Braves lost 5 more games than the Cards in 1990; ergo, by the standards of my completely arbitrary definition the Cardinals have never been downright terrible since the First World War.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago

Ah the Vern Rapp era

FordPrefectMember since 2016
3 years ago

Nearly empirically cuckoopants.

jasonl
3 years ago

Surprisingly bullish on Liberatore

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago

I’m counting 23 position players who project at least ~1 WAR/600. That seems like depth isn’t a problem

Jorge Soler vs Train (UNEXPECTED)
3 years ago

What am I missing with the Paul G – Pedro Guerrero Comp?

bernardgilkeyhasaposseMember since 2019
3 years ago

Well, of course it likes the St. Louis Cardinals. Who could possibly be more universally popular?

/ducks rotten veg

PemtlcMember since 2026
3 years ago

Another Craig Edwards Cardinal puff piece.

catmanwayne
3 years ago

The Mariners wish they were like the Cardinals. In fact every team wishes they were like the Cardinals. One of the most well run organizations in baseball.

fanofthemanMember since 2020
3 years ago

Tommy Edman’s emergence as a reliable good player feels like it has made a huge difference to this team, and he’s such a good example of why the Cardinals are just always good, or at least never bad. As a prospect, he was a 40! Even the Cardinals fans viewed him as “maybe he could be a utility guy for a couple years”. If you prorate for 2020, he’s averaged roughly 3.5 fwar/year. If you turn even a few of your 20th ranked prospects into consistent borderline all stars, you can paper over a lot of other mistakes.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  fanoftheman

Yeah, Edman has basically become near-peak Ben Zobrist, with a little more tilt towards defensive value. He’s still my vote for most underrated player.

Tnuts
3 years ago

No RC27 Dan?

Lanidrac
3 years ago

To be fair, part of their minor league depth is going to consist of guys like maybe Gorman, Burleson, and Liberatore who you’d think would likely stick in the Majors by now but may find themselves starting the season in AAA simply due to the lack of room on the Major League roster with all the role player depth they already have in the Majors. This is especially true if Walker manages to force himself onto the Opening Day roster, and if not then Walker himself will be among their minor league depth.

Joe Joe
3 years ago

Thanks Dan! I typically follow the AL mostly (AL West specifically) so it is always good to see write-ups on teams that I don’t see as often.

Lanidrac
3 years ago

Even if peak Flaherty doesn’t return, Mikolas is still a perfectly good ace. He’s not up there with the very top tier who get most of the Cy Young consideration, but he’s still a two-time All-Star and one of the 30 best starting pitchers in the game. You don’t always need high strikeout numbers to be an ace. (Although, it does help more in fantasy baseball, yet Mikolas is still likely among the Top 50 fantasy starters at the very least.)

Besides, it’s not like Montgomery gets a ton of strikeouts, either Those projected WAR values for Mikolas and Montgomery would make a lot more sense if they were flipped.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Mikolas is a fine pitcher, but he’s going to be an underdog against just about any playoff team’s Game 1 starter.

shampain
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

He will be an underdog by point estimates, not by confidence intervals. The expected difference b/t Mikolas and a “true ace”, across the 6-7 innings both would pitch a playoff game, is something like 1/10th of 1 run. It’s not a statistically-significant difference, particularly since the Cardinals defense is better than that difference against most other team defenses.

How well the guy slept the night before is probably more important for small-sample playoff outcomes than differences in true-talent levels across 200 mostly-low-leverage innings in the regular season, and Mikolas looks like a guy who sleeps pretty well.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

Not all of them. He was just as good as either of the Phillies best two starters from last year, for example.

Besides, we’re comparing him to the pitching of every team, not just the playoff teams. They aren’t all equally distributed, but since there are 30 teams, the 30 best starters count as MLB’s aces.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

He’s an ace if you have a very loose definition of ace and/or you have been asleep and missed the 2019-2022 seasons and/or you cherrypick the stats that work the best for him. With the Cardinals’ truly spectacular defense behind him and pitching 200 innings he was only 29th in RA9-WAR last year, and 2019 and 2021 are substantially less kind to him. Last year, he was 37th in WARP, 46th in fWAR, 60th in SIERA, and 66th in bWAR. He would be no better than a coin flip to be the third best pitcher on all of the Yankees, Mets, Brewers, Braves, Phillies, and Blue Jays, and he doesn’t stack up well against the top two of the Dodgers, Padres, Astros, Mariners, or Giants either. In the best rotations in the league (Yankees, Brewers, Braves) there’s an outside chance he would be their #5 starter. There are maybe 8 teams in the league where he would be the best starter on their staff, and several of these teams either aren’t trying (A’s, Nationals) or have pinned rebuilds heavily upon position players (Pirates, Orioles, Cubs). Nobody except Miles Mikolas’s mother thinks he is an ace, unless we decide to discard all meaning that we attach to words.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

You’re forgetting that Mikolas had injury-plagued years in 2020 and 2021, so you can’t count those seasons against his true talent level. Yes, 2019 was a down year, but he was still pretty good that year.

Overall, since returning from overseas, he’s had two excellent years, one good year, and two years ruined to injuries. He would be the best starter on the majority of MLB teams and is one of the 30 best starters in MLB right now.

Looking through some of your comparisons: #5 on the Brewers? That’s a joke, since he’s just as good as their #3 starter, Peralta. He’s also just as good as both of the Phillies’ top 2 starters, and he’s better than any starter on the Mariners. If the Cardinals need an ace to properly contend in the playoffs, then the Mariners need one even more badly. Plus, it never made sense why so many people wanted the Cardinals to go after Rodon despite the Cardinals being unable to afford him and Mikolas being just as good as him anyway.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

He’s as good as Wheeler and Nola and Rodon? Gotta strongly disagree there.

Last edited 3 years ago by cowdisciple
shampain
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

In the scenario you posited — a Game 1 playoff start — he is.

Think of it this way: so far in his MLB career, including the crappy years before he went to Japan and got good, Mikolas has been worth 0.013 WAR per inning pitched. Wheeler has been worth 0.021 WAR per inning pitched so far in his career.

Across a ton of innings, that’s a meaningful difference: Wheeler is noticeably better.

But across one start that is not a meaningful difference: 0.008 WAR across 9 innings. Statistically, that is a difference of zero at the maximum one-game sample size.

There is a reason why MLB playoffs are essentially random.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  shampain

If you want to take that approach, nothing is a meaningful difference in a one game sample, so why even bother.

But all those little advantages add up, and while the playoffs are certainly pretty random, the #1 seed is still going to be something like a 60/40 favorite against the bottom seed.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  shampain

Your thesis that every player is the same in a game 1 kind of smells like week old fish.

shampain
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

If you want to take that approach, nothing is a meaningful difference in a one game sample, so why even bother.”

Because it’s fun to play games, even when we are literally rolling dice to determine the outcome.

Your thesis that every player is the same…”

No, my thesis is that — among the sub-population of Very Very Good Baseball Players that we are currently discussing — the narrow true-talent differences that are visible across large samples will not be present in small samples.

Which is true. It’s just baseball. David Eckstein and David Freese are World Series MVPs, while Albert Pujols and Scott Rolen are not, because small-sample outcomes are highly idiosyncratic.

Or, as Billy Beane memorably put it, “[sabermetric] shit doesn’t work in the playoffs. My job is to get us to the playoffs. What happens after that is f*cking luck.” In the playoffs the talent disparities are smaller than in the regular season, and so are the samples, so the outcomes are in the error term. As study after study shows.

If there was a magic bullet to winning in the playoffs, the Dodgers would’ve bought up all existing supply by now.

tdouglas
3 years ago

Surprisingly decent projection for Burleson. He seemed like more of a Quad-A type of guy to me, but he’s definitely interesting. A Burleson/Yepez platoon might be productive, whether in left field when O’Neill hits the IL, or at DH.

Rodon would have revolutionized this team. I have no idea why STL isn’t increasing payroll when they are THIS close to building a top-tier club. Their stars are only getting older, they are about to lose 4 of their 5 starters, and O’Neill isn’t far behind. I’m not sure why Mozeliak said they would increase payroll and then…didn’t.

I get that they don’t push all their chips in for any given year, but signing a top starter wouldn’t affect their long-term projections negatively. The bullpen, at least, could use a talented arm.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  tdouglas

The plan was to increase payroll significantly, but their additional plans fell through after signed Contreras. Hopefully, they still pick up a good reliever before the offseason is over.

They’re working on extensions with a couple of the starters, but even so, that’s a problem for next offseason (plus, they’ll also still have Hudson, Woodford, and the kids). There’s no one available and affordable who would be worth pushing Matz to the bullpen.

However, after signing Contreras, they did *not* have anywhere near the money available to sign Rodon, and even if they did, Mikolas is just as good as he is as an ace, anyway, while Flaherty is quite a bit better if he regains his old form. It never made any sense why anyone thought the Cardinals would go after Rodon or that he would even make the team that much better in the first place.

Last edited 3 years ago by Lanidrac
SenorGato
3 years ago

Matt Liberatore feels sneaky important to this roster. He averaged ~94 last year during the ML callup, and if I could be even more general than an ace this rotation could use some healthy, above average velo like that. He was missing bats at the top of the strike zone @ AAA hitting 97 to end the year…He and Gorman may be slept on for their impact potential. I’m interested in following since the Cubs are also going through this phase in which high pedigree amateurs who haven’t performed perfectly have been relegated (outside the org) maybe earlier than is necessary

Wtheck happened to Carlson that he went from an already low 87 MPH avg EV to 85 last year? Ouch, only 24 in 2023 too

Glengarry Glenn Braggs
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

The simple answer to what happened to Carlson is that he suffered through wrist and thumb injuries last year. Even he said he had trouble turning his wrists and hands over and whipping the bat through the zone. But that’s the simple answer. There may be a more complicated answer that’s more fundamental/ominous.

SenorGato
3 years ago

Thanks

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Bah, McGreevy seems alright too