A Few Strange Turns When It Comes to Position Players Pitching
The Cardinals are only second in the NL Central right now, but they’ve been having some fun lately. On back-to-back Sundays, they sent elder statesmen (and likely future Hall of Famers) to the mound to close out lopsided games — first Albert Pujols against the Giants and then Yadier Molina against the Pirates. What’s more, the Cardinals were on top in both of those games by double-digit scores, placing the pair in a rare subset within the annals of position players pitching.
That’s not the only interesting recent development when it comes to those accidental moundsmen. But as it’s been awhile since I last delved into the topic, it’s a good place to start.
So let’s set the wayback machine to May 15, the night that the Cardinals faced the Giants in St. Louis for ESPN’s Sunday Night Baseball broadcast. With lefty Carlos Rodón on the mound for San Francisco, the 42-year-old Pujols, who returned to the nest this spring after a decade-long run with the Angels and, briefly, the Dodgers, was in the lineup. Though righties are still a problem, he’s ably served as a platoon designated hitter against southpaws; to date he’s hit .227/.329/.439 (125 wRC+). On this night, Pujols and company went to town on Rodón, scoring nine runs over the first four frames, with eight of them charged to the starter, and the veteran slugger collecting a double and an RBI single within that onslaught. The Cardinals kept scoring, adding two runs apiece in the fifth, sixth, and seventh; by the end of the eighth, they led 15–2.
Even with an off-day looming, Cardinals manager Oliver Marmol told his players he didn’t want to use another reliever for the ninth inning. Pujols volunteered to pitch, and in doing so became the second-oldest player to make his mound debut. White Sox player/manager Lena Blackburne — who would become more famous for discovering the Delaware River mud that Major League Baseball uses to take the sheen off baseballs — was 42 years and 225 days old (106 older than Pujols) when he pitched for the first and only time in the majors when he took the mound with his team on the short end of a 17–2 bludgeoning by the Red Sox on June 5, 1929. Additionally, Pujols became the second player with at least 600 homers and one pitching appearance, after Babe Ruth himself. The Bambino had 685 homers to his name when he made his final major league start on October 1, 1933, his first in three years and just his second in 12, and he marked the occasion by adding another. Pujols was sitting on 681 when he made his debut.
As for Pujols’ actual pitching, it was amusingly terrible. Working with a “fastball” that averaged 62.4 mph and maxed out at 69.6 and a slow curve that went as slow as 46.6 mph, he issued a five-pitch walk to Darin Ruf, got Austin Slater to line out on a 103.7 mph shot to center field, then gave up a single to Evan Longoria, who asked to keep the ball.
.@Evan3Longoria got a hit off @PujolsFive and asked to keep the ball ? pic.twitter.com/c9xLqGn8Vf
— MLB (@MLB) May 16, 2022
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Pujols got a grounder to shortstop off the bat of Thairo Estrada, but the Cardinals could only execute the front end of what they hoped would be a game-ending double play. Luis González — not the ex-Diamondbacks slugger, but a 26-year-old outfielder who himself had gotten the last four outs on the mound for the Giants (and who we’ll meet again elsewhere within this story) — followed by clubbing a 403-foot three-run homer to right field. Joey Bart made it two homers in a row with a 375-foot solo shot to left. Finally, Pujols got LaMonte Wade Jr. to ground out to third baseman Brendan Donovan on his 22nd and slowest pitch of the night.
Pujols didn’t record a single whiff among his 27 pitches and got just 11 swings and five called strikes. The outing left him with a 36.00 ERA, which would be the highest of any Hall of Famer unless more box scores with Josh Gibson pitching are unearthed. As it is, Gibson officially owns a 21.60 ERA via his four earned runs allowed in 1.2 innings in an outing for the Pittsburgh Crawfords in 1935.
One week after Pujols’ outing, he and his teammates teed off on the Pirates at PNC Park. The score was already 11–0 when Pujols pinch-hit for that day’s DH, Nolan Arenado, in the fifth inning and launched a solo homer off Chase De Jong. In the ninth, with the Cardinals up 15–0 and second baseman Josh VanMeter on the mound, Pujols added a three-run homer, the 683rd blast of his career.
The huge margin was a relief for Marmol, who had to pull starter Steven Matz after just four pitches due to shoulder stiffness. Rookie righty Angel Rondón turned in five innings and lefty T.J. McFarland contributed three before Marmol turned to Molina, who had spent the whole game on the bench while Andrew Knizner caught. Since Knizner was on deck to hit when the Cardinals’ five-run inning ended, Pujols even came out to warm up Molina.
ANDDDD Albert warmed up Yadi behind the plate! pic.twitter.com/E6Xer8g4W6
— MLB (@MLB) May 22, 2022
The 39-year-old catcher’s stuff was arguably no better than that of Pujols; his fastball averaged 61.2 mph and topped out at 69.2, and he mixed in a slider and a single 42.9 mph eephus pitch (which, no, was not the slowest in the majors this year).
That one was ball three to Yoshi Tsutsugo, the leadoff hitter of the inning. He teed off on the next pitch, hitting a 57-mph middle-middle “fastball” for a 354-foot homer to right field. Rodolfo Castro followed with a double and VanMeter picked up a single before Molina finally got his first out, a 100.7-mph liner to second base. Ke’Bryan Hayes hit an RBI groundout to second, but again the Cardinals couldn’t complete a double play. Jack Suwinski followed with a two-run, 400-foot homer to center before Michael Chavis flied out to end the game.
Molina — who to be fair was pitching in the rain — needed just 20 pitches in his outing but got just three called strikes. He matched Pujols’ 36.00 ERA, but via the advanced numbers, he owns the advantages in FIP (29.11 to 32.11) and xERA (10.48 to 12.333), figures that voters for the 2028 Hall of Fame ballot will surely want to weigh. He also had the edge as far as his manager was concerned: “Yadi had better command of the fastball,” said a playful Marmol afterward.
Molina became the sixth-oldest position player to make his mound debut:
| Player | Age | Date | Tm | Opp | IP | H | R | BB | SO | HR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Lena Blackburne | 42-225 | 6/5/1929 | CHW | BOS | 0.1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Albert Pujols | 42-119 | 5/15/2022 | STL | SFG | 1.0 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 2 |
| Ichiro Suzuki | 41-347 | 10/4/2015 | MIA | PHI | 1.0 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Rick Dempsey | 41-292 | 7/2/1991 | MIL | BOS | 1.0 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Dave Concepcion | 39-352 | 6/3/1988 | CIN | LAD | 1.1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| Yadier Molina | 39-313 | 5/22/2022 | STL | PIT | 1.0 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
| Jamey Carroll | 39-168 | 8/5/2013 | MIN | KCR | 1.0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Wade Boggs | 39-065 | 8/19/1997 | NYY | ANA | 1.0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 |
| Gary Gaetti | 39-032 | 9/20/1997 | STL | PIT | 0.1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| John McDonald | 38-334 | 8/24/2013 | PHI | ARI | 0.1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
That’s a fun group, with no fewer than three members of the 3,000 hit club. Who can forget Boggs’ knuckleball, or Ichiro’s long-awaited outing? This is the good stuff, folks.
As I noted above, the pair of Cardinals joined a short list. While using a position player to pitch when you’re behind by a large margin or deep into extra innings has become an increasingly common and accepted practice in recent years, in the Wild Card era just eight position players have taken the hill in nine-inning games that their teams won (six others have done so in extra innings, five in the 16th or later):
| Player | Date | Tm | Opp | Rslt | IP | H | R | BB | SO | HR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Shane Halter | 10/1/00 | DET | MIN | W 12-11 | 0.0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
| Andrew Romine | 9/30/17 | DET | MIN | W 3-2 | 0.1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Russell Martin | 3/30/19 | LAD | ARI | W 18-5 | 1.0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Russell Martin | 8/13/19 | LAD | MIA | W 15-1 | 1.0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Russell Martin | 8/27/19 | LAD | SDP | W 9-0 | 1.0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| Albert Pujols | 5/15/22 | STL | SFG | W 15-6 | 1.0 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 2 |
| Hanser Alberto | 5/17/22 | LAD | ARI | W 12-3 | 1.0 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Yadier Molina | 5/22/22 | STL | PIT | W 18-4 | 1.0 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
Note that this list does not include any two-way players such as Brooks Kieschnick or Shohei Ohtani, nor does it include position players who took up pitching; outfielder-turned-pitcher Brett Eibner and experimental lefty Jared Walsh each had one such appearance in a nine-inning win that I omitted from the results. I did include Halter and Romine, both of whom both faced a single batter as part of nine-positions-in-one-game stunts.
That leaves two Dodgers and the aforementioned two Cardinals. Martin made three such appearances (and four total) for the Dodgers in the final year of his career and didn’t allow a single run or walk a batter in any of them. Alberto, a utility infielder, snuck in an inning in the lopsided nightcap of a doubleheader last Tuesday against the Diamondbacks, the third pitching appearance of his major league career.
While using a position player to pitch while way ahead might be seen as rubbing it in, Giants manager Gabe Kapler found the humor in it. Via MLB.com’s John Denton:
“I thought it was just great theater,” Kapler said. “Obviously, their fans loved it, and I’m sure their dugout was hanging on every pitch. We all had a lot of fun with it. It was the right time to kind of let go of the negative outcomes of the game and get involved in the fun of it. … You get to create a memory for people and I’m sure Albert is never going to forget that. Our hitters are never going to forget it. They got to face Albert Pujols on the mound.”
Kapler’s team is at least above .500 (now 22–18 while amid a five-game losing streak), but the Pirates (now 16–24) are another story. I haven’t found manager Derek Shelton’s comments about Molina’s performance; instead he was more concerned about the quality of starter Bryse Wilson‘s poor command and his team’s execution. Via The Athletic’s Rob Biertempfel, Tsutsugo and Chavis weren’t thrilled at the circumstances but took the moment in stride. Said Tsutsugo, “It was not a great game situation, but it was great to go against a superstar like [Molina]. It’s very memorable.”
Said Chavis, “I wish it was a real pitcher. It’s just awkward. He was having fun on the mound. I’m glad he got to enjoy it. He’s earned that. You have to pay your respect and everything, so good for him. That’s about it.”
Despite this veritable flood of position players finishing games while holding big leads, the overall usage of these emergency hurlers is down a bit relative to recent years:
| Year | G | IP | BB% | SO% | HR/9 | ERA | FIP | RPG% | BF% |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2013 | 14 | 10.3 | 16.3% | 12.2% | 0.87 | 6.10 | 5.47 | 0.10% | 0.08% |
| 2014 | 20 | 17.3 | 14.6% | 9.8% | 1.56 | 7.27 | 6.54 | 0.14% | 0.13% |
| 2015 | 27 | 26.0 | 7.1% | 6.3% | 3.12 | 4.85 | 8.06 | 0.18% | 0.20% |
| 2016 | 26 | 24.7 | 6.1% | 4.4% | 2.55 | 5.11 | 7.28 | 0.17% | 0.17% |
| 2017 | 32 | 29.0 | 9.1% | 3.5% | 3.10 | 8.69 | 8.64 | 0.20% | 0.20% |
| 2018 | 65 | 63.0 | 9.7% | 6.9% | 3.86 | 11.71 | 9.51 | 0.40% | 0.43% |
| 2019 | 85 | 89.3 | 9.4% | 5.8% | 3.22 | 8.76 | 8.69 | 0.51% | 0.55% |
| 2020 | 35 | 32.3 | 8.1% | 5.0% | 3.62 | 8.63 | 9.13 | 0.57% | 0.54% |
| 2021 | 89 | 79.0 | 6.9% | 5.4% | 2.96 | 8.09 | 7.94 | 0.53% | 0.50% |
| 2022 | 18 | 19.7 | 10.7% | 0.0% | 5.49 | 16.93 | 12.87 | 0.41% | 0.55% |
Last year saw a record 89 position player pitching appearances, though in terms of percentages of all relief appearances and of batters faced, the rates were a bit lower than the previous two seasons. This year’s percentage of such appearances about back to where it was in 2018, though it’s a bit high (by an eyelash) when it comes to a percentage of batters faced. These rates are probably being artificially suppressed by the relaxation of roster rules in the wake of the lockout-shortened spring training, anyway. Teams were allowed to carry 28 players through May 1, and some had as many as 16 pitchers at times, lessening the need for position players to fill in; just seven position players took the hill in that span. Since rosters were trimmed to 26, with a limit of 14 pitchers, another 11 have done so. As of May 30, teams will only be allowed to carry 13 pitchers, finally putting into effect a rule that was supposed to be in place to start the 2020 season. Thus I suspect we will continue to see this year’s rates climb.
Unlike last year, when in the early going position players were unusually effective, with a 2.81 ERA and 4.21 FIP through their first 16 innings, this year they’ve been even worse than usual. In fact, they’ve collectively failed to strike out any of the 112 hitters they’ve faced, that while allowing more than five homers per nine innings. Six of their 12 homers allowed came in the two Cardinals games, two apiece by Pujols and Molina plus two by VanMeter; according to The Athletic’s Jayson Stark, Sunday’s game was the first in which multiple position players gave up multiple homers.
As for González, he has now made three appearances, the most of any position player this year, and he made a bit of history himself. After his 1.1-inning scoreless appearance against the Cardinals, he added a two-inning scoreless stint in a 10–1 loss against the Padres on Sunday, then pitched again on Monday against the Mets, allowing the final three runs in a 13–3 loss. That made him the first position player (not convert or experimenter) to pitch in back-to-back games since at least the start of the expansion era in 1961. It gets murky before then, and I’m discarding former Phillies shortstop Granny Hammer’s return to the majors with the Kansas City A’s in 1962 as a knuckleballer, his first major league action since ’59 and the end of an experiment that traced back ’56. He threw just three games, was hit hard, and retired.
After the Mets’ game, Kapler lauded González, whose pitches have ranged in speed from a 39.6 mph “slider” to a mid-80s fastball. “That stuff is really effective and incredibly valuable,” said the manager. “It means a great deal to a team’s bullpen. We’re lucky that we have somebody who can do that for us.”
And no, his 39.6 mph pitch isn’t the slowest in the majors this year. That honor belongs to a 34.3 mph eephus from the Nationals’ Dee Strange-Gordon to the Braves’ Matt Olson on April 12. Summoned into a 13–4 game, Strange-Gordon ended up walking Olson in that plate appearance, and three batters later, he hit Travis d’Arnaud with a 52-mph pitch that produced one of the season’s funniest clips. Here’s the eephus and the HBP:
As d’Arnaud’s reaction should remind us, it’s good not to take this stuff too seriously.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
Really enjoyed seeing both of them pitch. It’s nice in all the numbers, greed of the owners, and terrible umpiring to just remember that baseball is truly fun.
…on the other hand, as someone with no emotional attachment to any of the teams or players involved, I would have laughed so hard if Pujols or Yadi were bad enough at pitching to actually let their opponent back into the game. The schadenfreude alone would have be great.
If the Cardinals’ habit of pitching position players with large leads becomes popular, I think we’ll see that soon enough. It will be amazing when it happens
Just remember not to swing away at 3-0 against a position player pitcher
…which still makes no sense, since swinging 3-0 is more likely to end the game faster, the ultimate desire of the unwritten rules in blowout games.
10 years ago, if you had told me that 2-way players would be more common in the 2020’s, I wouldn’t have believed you.
Asking for Volunteers:
A) If multiple players volunteer, I guess the manager just chooses who he thinks has the best arm.
B) If a younger, nonfamous player had volunteered first, I wonder if Pujols would have said, “Actually, I want to pitch, and I am Albert Pujols, so I get to do it.”
C) Teams don’t let their superstars pitch for fear of injury. Pujols, Molina, Boggs, and Ichiro were all old and far past their primes. Had they volunteered at age 30 or so, the manager would probably have denied them. And then lesser players would volunteer while fully knowing that they are expendable.
In regards to C, didn’t Anthony Rizzo (beloved, healthy All-Star) pitch for the Cubs a while ago? Actually, twice in 2018 and 2021. Only two years removed from an All-Star appearance, and he still won a Gold Glove and received down-ballot MVP support in 2018. Granted, he threw nothing but eephus pitches, but still.
Also, with A, I’d figure he’d use “the guy least likely to injure himself by going full-bore”.
He struck out Freddie Freeman last year.
Didn’t Jose Canseco famously hurt himself attempting to pitch when he was a star player?
I had never heard of Lena Blackburne before this article, so I of course had to look him up.
Turns out, there have been FOUR players names Lena in MLB history.
Dee Gordon pitched? Bring back NotGraphs!
https://not.fangraphs.com/dangerous-experiment-a-roster-of-25-adam-dunns/
Dee S. Gordon, to be exact.
Best internet ever.
d’Arnaud looks to have a second career in soccer
Explain to me how getting rid of extra innings makes it ever necessary to pitch a position player. This is garbage to the fans who pay to watch the best in the world and the pitchers who spend their entire lives putting themselves in a position to pitch. It makes for a great tweet I guess. MLB has become a joke so I guess it all checks out.
RonnieDobbs longs for the MLB product that existed before 1929, when garbage like this didn’t happen!
You think watching Pujols/Molina pitch in a blowout was less fun than seeing the 8th best Cardinals reliever pitch?
As a Dodger fan, I found Hanser Alberto pitching entertaining – and I look forward to 38 year old Mookie Betts’ pitching debut
Aside from you, I think the only person annoyed was the head of the Cardinals ticket sales – imagine the mark up they could have made if they knew beforehand it was Pujols/Molina’s pitching debut!
You know, somehow I don’t think that when Molina went in with an 18-0 margin that anyone in the stadium said:
“Drat! I was really looking forward to seeing yet another short reliever just called up from AAA and going back down next week! Instead of the tense and exiting baseball of watching to see if someone with 100 MPH fastball that he can only throw 20 times in two days can get three outs with an 18 run cushion, I’ll just have to suffer through watching a hall of fame catcher try to pitch and seeing if anything interesting happens.”
But maybe I’m wrong. Maybe they’d have been more entertained if, say, Nick Wittgren had gone in to finish it off instead.
TLDR: The high drama of the best in the world competing at the highest level is largely over for the night when the Pirates are down by 18.
Since when has MLB gotten rid of extra innings?
Even in a 9 inning game, you still want to rest the bullpen when you can, especially in the Molina game when the starter got hurt after throwing only 4 pitches.
Unclench, Ronnie.
Ronnie, cloud. Cloud, Ronnie.
STOP YELLING AT YOUR NEW FRIEND RONNIE
I enjoyed taking a peek at Boggs’ player page, and learn that he got on base at .377 his final year and was below average hitter anyway.
RIP
His eye never left; it was the bat speed that failed him.
For my money, he was the best batter of the 80’s. Not the best hitter; that’d probably go to Gwynn. But as far as being impossible to get out, he was the man.
It turns out you are correct. Among batters with a minimum of 4000 PA during the years 1980-1989, Boggs in first with a .443 OBP. Second place goes to Rickey at .403. Boggs wasn’t just the toughest out of the 80s, he was 10% tougher than the second toughest out.
I can’t describe how much I hate the idea of a thousand families paying hundreds of dollars to take their family to a ball game, only for one team give up in the 8th inning and have a 40 year old throw 55 MPH lobs to another team that has pitchers bat and hitters bat opposite handed. For us fans that watch all the time, okay, Albert and Phillips and Molina pitching in a 10-0 game is amusing. But there’s people out there going to the first game they will ever experience.
If a batter is used as a pitcher, free tickets to another game should be provided by the team doing the substituting. Like what they used to do with rain shortened games. “Sorry you didn’t get to watch a complete game, we’d love to have you back another time”. Because people payed to watch the best compete, not watch the worst exhibit. When a baseball game turns into the NFL Pro Bowl, count me out. Refund my tickets, parking, overpriced food, and $18 beers. This isn’t what I was sold.
Even if it’s your first in person baseball game, you’ve probably still watched a few games on TV prior to deciding to spend that 100+ bucks, and thus you know that the game is effectively over when one team is down 18-0 in the ninth.
Sorry if you somehow missed this. But the only reason they’re still playing at that point is that Baseball doesn’t have a mercy rule and there’s no clock they can just let run out.
Also, if you went to watch the best compete, I hate to break this to you, but one of the teams is the 2022 Pirates, you are not watching the best compete.
I’m a Rays fan. I don’t live in St Petersburg though. I live in Tallahassee. 2 games with the family costs me 10 hours in the car and almost $1000 after eating out 8 times, hotels for 2 nights, and game experiences. I expect Major League teams to actually have good players try to win. If they choose to not try today, so that they can be better tomorrow, cool. Give me tickets to that effing game instead.
I didn’t pay for tomorrow’s game. I paid for today’s. The Rays ultimate goal of making the playoffs is irrelevant to 3 of the 4 members of my family. If you have paying customers, and are still charging $20 for nachos, you need to be relevant, and beer league softball at a MLB game isn’t what I was sold, and isn’t what they are charging for. The fans should speak up and demand better, but as long as dumb ass articles like this are written, teams can get away with screwing the fans at todays game over in favor of the fans at tomorrows game.
If you pay to watch a team throw the last 2 innings, you should be refunded. It’s not pro wrestling. Professional sporting events are regulated for precisely this reason, because without competetion, you can’t market it as a competetion.
You’re too dumb to maintain company with your money.
fuck you
That escalated quickly
fuck you too
I’m good thanks!
Who buys such expensive tickets to their first game? You can easily spend less than $15 per ticket per person if you pick the right game. Plus, the smart people bring in their own food at the places it’s allowed and don’t bother with such overpriced beer.
Anyway, the more casual fans don’t care who pitches the last inning of a blowout and are more likely to just leave the game early in the first place. It’s not like bringing a normal reliever in a blowout will make that last inning any more interesting to watch even if it’s Bruce Sutter.
Wrong. No tickets under $25 for a Rays game. They tarped the upper deck. Tickets “start” at $19, but there’s a fee to buy a damn ticket. And unless you live walking distance, which no one does, you get to pay $20 to park, because, well, it’s Florida and public transportation doesn’t exist. The worst seats in the house costs your family almost $150, and Brett Phillips already has 2 appeances in the first 30 days. It’s not enjoyable to an 8 and 10 year old, and a wife, to see the backup right fielder throw 45 mph. It’s become a regular occurance, so it isn’t even a rarity, which makes it not fun for me either.
I don’t live in St Petersburg though. I live in Tallahassee. 2 games with the family costs me almost $1000 after eating out 8 times, hotels for 2 nights, and game experiences. I expect Major League teams to actually have good players try to win. If they choose to not try today, so that they can be better tomorrow, cool. Give me tickets to that effing game instead.
That’s an exception. If they could actually draw a decent amount of fans, the Rays actually could sell those upper deck tickets at decent prices for most games, but that’s not happening as long as they play in the Snowbird State.
Anyway, as I already said, it wouldn’t be any more enjoyable for that 8 and 10-year-old to see a normal reliever pitch the 9th in a blowout game, either. Both teams initially did try to win, but it’s just your bad luck that the game was a blowout and was essentially over halfway through. At least the position player makes it funny.
I understand the strategic reason for throwing a 1st baseman. It doesn’t make it okay. Baseball has a responsibility to set rules on teams intentionally being uncompetetive today, in order to help them tomorrow. Olympic qualifies used to have the problem of teams, badminton if I remember correctly, intentionally losing in order to gain some competitive seeding advantage.
There’s no reason for Brett Phillips to be pitching in the 6th game of the season when rosters are at 28 people. It isn’t fun for me to pay for my entire family to watch a major league game, and end up watching an untrained player throw softer than I throw to my 8 year old. It’s happening too often, where players intentionally try to be as bad as possib.e It’s prevalent, a competition to see who can throw the softest, and it’s so freaking lame. And the compettition committee needs to end it.
You forgot what it’s like to be 8, and see grown men do things you couldn’t possibly imagine doing. There’s no wonder and amazement when the radar gun doesn’t reach 50.
The outcome is already decided in such blowouts, so it’s doesn’t matter nor is it any less exciting if they decide to give up or not. They’ll lose either way, so they are *NOT* intentionally losing, merely taking advantage of a foregone conclusion to gain a strategic edge for the next game. That’s a good thing! It would be an issue if they actually were giving up in a game they could’ve won, but that’s not what’s happening. (Besides, even in the Olympic qualifiers, who cares if they intentionally lose a game for a seeding advantage, as nobody watches the qualifiers, anyway?)
As I keep saying, watching a position player pitch IS NO LESS EXCITING THAN A NORMAL PITCHER in such situations. No matter what, the 9th inning won’t be exciting to watch, so they might as well gain a benefit for the next day’s game! The kids already saw them pitch 90+ MPH for 8 innings, so it doesn’t matter to them whether or now they see it again for one more inning. It’s actually MORE exciting to then see them throw 50 MPH instead and force the hitters to adjust.
In short, NOBODY BUT YOU CARES ONE BIT WHO PITCHES IN THE 9TH INNING OF A BLOWOUT!
The Rays pitched Jesus Sucre in a 5 run game. I’m not speaking exclusively of blowouts.
Why would you get a refund on food or beer? Did the beer “give up in the 8th inning”?
Movie theatre popcorn is $10 bucks a bucket because of the show, not because of the chair. If you serve me an $18 beer to watch a MLB contest between 52 of the 780 greatest players in the World, and then you inexplicably decide to bring in the 500,000th best pitcher in the World, throwing 45 miles per hour, it’s no longer an $18 beer.
The cost of baseball food and drink directly corresponds to the quality of the athlete. In little league, the hot dog is a dollar. In college, it’s $3. In AA, it’s $5. In the MLB, it’s $10. But you bring in a backup RF to throw 45 miles per hour? It just became nickel beer night.
Keep the analogy going!
“Good day shopkeep. That movie is 32% on Rotten Tomatoes, I demand my popcorn monies back. Wait! Where are you going…”
The movie can be bad, as long as they keep playing it. If they turn the volume off to save some volume for tomorrow, then yeah, refund my money.
You never have to worry about that – movies always seem to be broadcast at an ear-shattering 200 dB. You can hear them two towns over.
No, the food and drink is sold purely on the basis of being able to eat and drink it! It’s value has nothing to do with the venue where it’s being sold. Yes, it is overpriced, but the actual value and purpose still remains the same. If you’re willing to pay the price, then it became worth it to you to eat or drink it at that price irregardless of how the actual ballgame plays out. The game could get rained out after 5 innings, and you’ll still receive full value for your food as long as you actually eat it.
Just remember to bring in your own food when the stadium lets you do so, and just stay sober the whole game rather than waste your money on those ridiculously expensive beers. If you’re going to ruin your liver and alter your mental state with such a vice that has no redeeming features, you might as well wait until you can do it at a more reasonable price.
Even if your analogy was accurate, the 9th inning of a blowout is already terribly unexciting just by nature of being a blowout no matter who pitches it. As such, you should deserve a partial refund even if a normal reliever pitches that inning. In fact, the position player pitching actually makes it MORE exciting than it otherwise would be.
Disagree. Food has intrinsic value not only on the ingredients in it, but on the venue in which it is served. Ruth’s Chris doesn’t have takeout for a reason. The value of a hot dog is not $10 when Brett Phillips is pitching to a reliever. That price is based on a relief pitcher pitching to Brett Phillips.
I have never had a funnel cake anywhere but the fair. I eat a funnel cake because I’m at the fair. I might even go to the fair because I want a funnel cake. If I buy the funnel cake, and then they turn off all the lights and rides after my second bite, because they need to save some gas for tomorrow, I no longer wish to eat my funnel cake. I bought it because of where I was. The sites, the sounds, the smiles. I didn’t buy it for the hepatitis and diabetes that might result from eating it.
I haven’t eaten a hot dog outside of a baseball game in 30 years. If I fork over 10 bucks for a hot dog, and after bite 2, the pitcher and 1st baseman swap glove and positions, get me out of there. Refund the moneys spent, because I paid for an evening of watching Major League Baseball, not half of one, or even 8/9 of one.
Movie theater popcorn is only $10 a bucket because of their unfair rule against bringing in outside food, thereby allowing them to charge huge prices for those desperate enough for it, not because its value is attached to the movie itself.
The smart people just smuggle in their own candy, anyway.
I NEVER give up!
But the Cardinals weren’t giving up. They had the lead! If anything it’s good gamesmanship to put Albert and Yadi out there. Having those guys pitch was the only remote chance the Giants or Pirates had to get back into the game
Baseball is won or lost hundreds of times per game. Every pitch, every play. Until you bring in a 40 year old first baseman to pitch. Then it’s no longer a competition. It’s batting practice at best, and the home team didn’t charge 45,000 people to watch 2 rounds of batting practice with some Pro Bowl level effort.
Down 20-0? Up 20-0? Doesn’t matter. You sold tickets to today’s show. You need to field a team that wouldn’t get blown out by the local junior varsity squad.
*Correction: with Pujols or Molina pitching, the Cardinals would safely beat the local JV squad approximately 92-7.
JV squads shouldn’t be able to score 7 runs on a MLB team in an inning. Thanks for agreeing with me.
A “blow out by the local JV squad” is an 85-run loss? Hmmm. Mets, Phillies, Angels, and Rockies all had blow-out wins yesterday!
Sure they should if the MLB team knows they’ve already won and want to save their bullpen for a game against an MLB team the next day.
It was still competition in the sense that the pitchers and hitters were still putting in their best efforts.
In the sense of the results of the game, then the competition was already over in the first place no matter who pitches.
I care who wins and loses. The other $150 worth of tickets I bought don’t care. But they do care about seeing the best in the world try as hard as they can. What they don’t care about is watching $45 MPH with no amazement or wonder. If theams want to use non-MLB caliber players to save up for another day, they need to give out tickets to tthat game.
I was at a GNR concert 30 years ago where Slash was too drunk to perform. It was obvious when he left the stage and didn’t come back, we were disappointed, but no one demanded a refund, because a quality replacement was brought on. The show went on, with the same level of talent that started the show. But if they brought out Lil Wayne to play the November Rain solo, we’d have rioted.
I have been to a high quality symphony one time in my life. It was the Denver Symphony Orchestra. It was a special and expensive experience. They played Stravinsky. If the string section was blowing it, and half way through the Rite of Spring, they replaced the violins with the janitors playing the spoons for the last 3 acts, and justified it because those violinists had to play tomorrow too and they wanted to keep them rested, I’d demand a refund. But for some reason it’s okay for MLB teams to replace the pitchers, whom they sell as members of the most talent 300 pitchers in the world, with someone who doesn’t play the instrument, isn’t trying to play the instrument, and has never even practiced playing that instrument.
You guys think it’s entertaining for the orchestra to leave at 9, and let the ushers take over? No thanks. Refund my purchase, and good luck with the show tomorrow.
Symphonic music accompanied by spoons sounds like a great time out.
Turns out that this exists!
https://youtu.be/rPd63W2fP58?t=60
Orchestras aren’t competitions. They are paid simply to sound good the whole performance. Even if it were a school competition, they can’t “get creative” on the last section without risking a loss, which is not an issue with MLB blowouts of a certain level.
Baseball teams are paid to win the most games they can, which they have a better chance of doing with such strategies. You already received full value for your game when it was decided back in the 5th inning or so. Blame MLB’s lack of a mercy rule, not teams doing their best to do what they’re actually supposed to do.
Besides, it’s no different than subbing in most of your bench players in a blowout to give some regulars some extra rest, yet you aren’t complaining about that.
It’s not anything like subbing in your bench. Your bench is still the best in the world, MLB caliber players that are playing the positions they are being payed to play. They are still better than any amateur. My 8 year old isn’t swinging and missing at Albert Pujols’ 45 MPH pitches. That isn’t MLB level talent. it’s isn’t 7th grade level talent.
I understand the strategy of saving your pitchers for a more winnable game. My complaint isn’t a team doing it. My complaint is the league, the governing body responsible for competetion, allows it. If you want to give up on this game and focus on tomorrow, I have no problem with that strategy. But if you are going to stop putting MLB talent on the field, give me a voucher to a game in which you will use MLB talent. Because I didn’t pay to watch a competetion in which 10% of the game will be a team actively trying to throw a ball as slow as possible.
Look at those stats up there. It is a new phenomenon where players attempt to be as bad as possible.
You pay to watch a compettition. Every batter is a competetion. Until the backup RF starts throwing 45. Then it’s an exhibition. Give me a voucher to a game in which both teams are going to compete, because I’m not paying to watch them exhibit.
Imagine going to a Lakers game and seeing the Lakers up by 20 with five minutes left and seeing LeBron James sitting and thinking, “HOW DARE THEY!”
Or seeing Tom Brady still in the game with the Bucs up 40 late in the 4th quarter.
Or seeing Connor McDavid putting in a shift with the Oilers up by 5 late in the third period.
It happens in every sport.
No lineman has ever lined up at Quarterback just because it’s late in the game, and the team doesn’t give a shit anymore. No forward has ever put on the pads and played goalie just for shits and giggles in front of a paid attendance. Basketball uses rotations, so there isn’t a comp for that sport. Dale Earhardt never had the tire changer take over because he was down 2 laps and couldn’t win.
This is a modern phenomena that exists solely in baseball. It isn’t equivalent to letting Shaq take 3 pointers. Shaq is actually trying to make the threes. It’s Brett Phillips hitting 94 on pitch one, and not breaking 50 on any subsequent pitches. There is no other comparison in sports.
It would’ve been even funnier if d’Arnaud had been called back on the rarely enforced rule that he failed to attempt to evade the pitch. Seriously, he could’ve easily dodged it had he wanted to do so rather than purposely drawing out the farce!
There’s no reason for a Major Leaguer to throw a pitch in the 50 MPH range. Brett Phillips hit 94 on his forst pitch, and hasn’t hit 60 since. It’s taking a dive. It’s disgraceful, and it needs to stop.
You know players have injured themselves pitching, right? Jose Canseco is a famous one. I remember Felipe Lopez pitching for STL and messing up his arm.
Hey, go throw as hard as you can for 20 pitches and report back how you feel the next few days. Before you give me the “athlete” thing, pitching is way different from what any of these guys are trained to do. Letting a guy throw 100% with no training in mechanics or grip or release point is a recipe for disaster.
Everything you said is right. That’s why Brett Phillips shouldn’t have pitched. And if you decide to use Brett Phillips, you can refund the tickets to the fans, because I don’t pay Bally Sports, MLB.TV, and go to 20 games a year because I’m a fan of beer league slow pitch softball.
Fans need to demand more. Jordan Luplow, Brett Phillips, and Francisco Mejia combined to throw an entire game’s worth of innings last year, in a season that had 28 man rosters. Manfred has to step in. It’s not acceptable.
I demand that my team do what they can to win as many games as they can, so I applaud their efforts to save their bullpen with the current game already in hand. Meanwhile, most people are no less of fans of slow pitch softball than they are watching a normal pitcher pitch the 9th inning of a blowout. It’s not like it will be exciting to watch either way.
I didn’t buy season tickets. What they do in a season I couldn’t give 2 shits about. I bought tickets to one game. And I didn’t see Major Leaguers for almost 20% of the game. Yes, they should have issued vouchers to a game in which major league talent will be seen.
Lighten up, Francis
I guess you watch the games on the bootleg websites. Because if you spent $150 on MLB.TV, $160/month for MLB Network and Bally Sports, and spend several hundred everytime you took the family to the game, you wouldn’t like seeing someone who isn’t trying pitching to players who don’t care. Throw in that the player who isn’t rying is also unskilled and untrained, and it’s pretty infuriating to be there in person.
You and Ronnie should team up. I think FoxNews could clear a spot for you at like 4:30 AM on a Sunday morning.
This week on “old white guys yelling about inconsequential stuff”:
TV is regulated. Baseball has an inti-monopoly exemption, and is currently throwing games twice a week. I think baseball should be regulated. You don’t. Which one of us should be on Fox News?
Again, no games are “being thrown” when the results have already been decided in the first place! Even if the losing team actually started to make a game of it, a normal reliever would be brought in while it’s still an 7-run-lead or something.
You also highly overestimate just how often position player pitch. We had a largely unusual amount these past couple of weeks.
I don’t see why you’ve made this personal. I say “baseball should fix this”, and your response is “there’s something wrong with you, and you should change”. You aren’t a good person, and I feel bad for your family members when they confront you over your faults.
“You aren’t a good person” says the guys who was slinging the unsolicited, unprovoked “F@CK YOU!!” around like beads at Mardi Gras. As Bart Simpson says, the ironing is delicious! 😀
The guy said I was too stupid to have any money. “Fuck you” is entirely appropriate there.
But you don’t spend $25 to support Fangraphs?
No. It’s geared towards gambling. It’s against my religion. I come here for the baseball, and ignore the roto-articles.
Translation: I am a freeloader, and came up with a shaky religious justification for it. I’ve not heard that one before!
(Actual gambling content on FanGraphs: 0.00%.)
I support your stand against gambling, but you do know that there are plenty of free fantasy leagues out there, don’t you? Even then, it’s not gambling to solely pay admission to enter a entertaining contest of skill for potential prizes. Otherwise, I’d be gambling every time I went to a trivia contest. Even then, it’s not like FanGraphs is directly sponsored by paid fantasy leagues or DraftKings, etc.
Besides, you don’t even need to actively play fantasy baseball to find interesting things in the fantasy articles.
I don’t go eat at the strip club, I don’t read playboy for the articles, and I don’t join a website that lobbied it’s readers against PASPA. End of story.
Um, he *is* trying his best. He’s just obviously not very good and wouldn’t have the needed command if he tried to throw hard. Meanwhile, the hitters certainly do care and do their best to hit such pitches, although it’s somewhat tough to adjust their timing.
In any case, I wouldn’t like it any less than watching any other pitcher in a blowout game that already been decided. In fact, I’d like it even more.
Nobody is trying their best when they are capable of throwing 94 MPH, but only throw 45.
Look at those stats up there on position players making their pitching debuts. It’s a whole bunch of “1 IP, 2 hits, 0 runs”. They used to care. Even when a position player got brought in, it was knuckleballs and 90 MPH gas. Now it’s “Pujols and Molina, 47 MPH, 1 IP, 4 ER each, 2HR each, 8 hits”. The position players pitching weren’t a problem until they stopped trying. And when they stop trying, I shouldn’t be paying.
When someone asks if I thought I could hit major league pitching, my answer used to be no. But now, it’s yes. Because I know I could rip the tits off of Phillips, Brosseau, Luplow, Molina, and Pujols if they aren’t trying. And they aren’t trying.
Police the game.
Try looking up the definition of “taking a dive.” It’s doesn’t apply in games where the outcome has already been decided.
Perhaps you should go look it up. “Taking a dive” doesn’t apply to any games. It’s a boxing term.
https://twitter.com/PitchingNinja/status/1529925716472741896
44 MPH out of a guy who has 103 on a throw to first. It’s a contest among players as to who can throw the shittiest pitch in baseball. And all of you are enablers. This is pathetic, and you all are pathetic.