A Few Thoughts on the Orioles and their Window

Recently, the Orioles have finally gotten active with regard to improving their ballclub. Such behavior was long overdue, because inactivity was likely to leave the Orioles in a non-competitive place despite a roster littered with upper-level talent. Their offseason, for a while, was as disappointing as Cincinnati’s, and on the heels of the Ubaldo Jimenez acquisition, writers all over the place have emphasized that the Orioles are working with a short-term window. That is, the Orioles need to win in 2014 or 2015, because after that, they could easily be without both Matt Wieters and Chris Davis.

Wieters is good, and next year is his last year of team control, and he’s represented by Scott Boras. Davis is good, and next year is his last year of team control, and he’s represented by Scott Boras as well. Certainly, the Orioles would rather have more good players than fewer good players, and if they do lose these two, they’ll have to work hard to make up for it. But I want to talk about the Orioles’ perceived window, just as I talked some time ago about the Royals’ perceived window, because the actual reality is always more complicated than the sound-byte reality. For Baltimore, it doesn’t have to be two years or bust.

The first thing to talk about: how good are the Orioles, actually? Like, right this second? Is this even really a good window for them? They have won 178 games over two years. Much of that talent is still around. And yet, they aren’t quite projection-system darlings. Steamer has them as the worst team in the AL East. PECOTA also has them as the worst team in the AL East. ZiPS doesn’t seem to think they’re very different from the Blue Jays. One message: the Orioles aren’t bad. A second message: the Orioles, at least this year, will have an uphill battle. For a team supposedly with a short-term window, the shortest term is less than encouraging.

Some young talent could and should arrive down the stretch. It could and should be in place for 2015, so maybe next year would be when the Orioles are at their best. Some of that depends on how good Davis and Wieters actually are. Wieters hasn’t shown much improvement, and Davis looks like a regression candidate, if only because his most recent numbers were so insane. I think if you’re going to talk about a team with a window, it should at least be clear that they’re a real contender during. The Orioles simply might be. The teams around them are also pretty good.

Now, let’s say that Wieters and Davis both walk after 2015. It’s the current course of things, and let’s say they become highly sought-after free agents. Lose Wieters and the Orioles are down, say, 3-4 wins. Lose Davis and they’re down, I don’t know, 3-5 wins. The specific numbers aren’t important — what’s important is that they’re big losses. But those aren’t just losses of wins; they also represent cleared payroll. Wieters might easily end up making about $10 million in 2015. Davis could earn upwards of $15 million. This is the easy part to forget about — when you lose a highly-paid star, you lose a star, but you also gain some flexibility.

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Of course, Wieters will probably be more valuable than $10 million, and Davis will probably be more valuable than $15 million. Those are estimated third-year arbitration figures, and you can’t use that money to buy the same wins back on the open market. But then, there’s also the Nick Markakis factor. Markakis will make $15 million this season. Then there’s a bigger club option, with a $2-million buyout. Markakis has been worth 7.5 WAR over five years, and his most recent year was his worst, and he’s entered his 30s.

Unless Markakis turns things around, the Orioles will happily clear that money, and then they’ll be able to re-invest it, probably better. Between Markakis, Wieters, and Davis, the Orioles could lose a lot of talent over two years, but that talent would’ve come at a cost of tens of millions of dollars, and dollars are basically wins without a corporeal form. Even if they can’t totally make up the gap in lost wins, they can get a lot of the way there.

And now’s when we consider the potential long-term assets. If the talk is about the Orioles losing Wieters and Davis, the talk should also be about the players the Orioles would have left. Because every baseball team is bigger than one or two players, and though you can never be confident in projections a few years off, the Orioles have reason to hope they could still have a pretty strong core a few seasons down the road.

Adam Jones is there for a while. He’s locked in and he’s good. Manny Machado’s there for a while. He’s under club control, and he’s good. The Orioles just signed Ubaldo Jimenez for four years. Chris Tillman isn’t arbitration-eligible until 2015. Less sexily, Miguel Gonzalez isn’t arbitration-eligible until 2015. Hell, the Orioles signed Suk-min Yoon for three years, whatever he might be, and that contract’s interesting. It’s looking like the front office could sign J.J. Hardy to a long-term extension.

And what the Orioles have is a top-heavy farm system, which means it’s light on depth, but big on potential impact talent. Our own Marc Hulet put five Orioles prospect in the top 100. Keith Law put the same five in the top 100. Baseball Prospectus put the same five in the top 101. Those five are real good and, for the most part, they’re close to being major leaguers.

Dylan Bundy is on the other side of Tommy John surgery, now, and he’s an operation removed from being baseball’s consensus top pitching prospect. He’s 21 years old. Kevin Gausman is 23 years old, and he’s had few problems in the minors, and while his big-league cup of coffee featured a near-6 ERA, it also featured a near-3 xFIP, with a strikeout an inning. Eduardo Rodriguez is 20 years old, and he just struck out a batter an inning in his first exposure to Double-A. Jonathan Schoop is 22 years old, and he’s thought to be close to a big-league infield provided he’s over a 2013 back injury. Rounding things out, Hunter Harvey was just drafted 22nd overall, and he’s 19, and while he’s a few years away, he’s also a potential fast riser. Hulet has given him a high ceiling, albeit shy of ace-level.

Odds are, not all those guys will work out. Bundy’s already been hurt. Harvey’s a low-minors prep arm, and Schoop hasn’t hit a whole lot for a while. But some of those guys should work out, and if, say, Bundy and Gausman succeed, they could be impact starters real soon under cheap team control for several seasons. And there’s absolutely nothing more valuable to a big-league franchise than a good young player making a tiny fraction of his market-value salary.

Jones, Machado, and Tillman are already good and in place. Jimenez is something of a mystery, and Hardy is a different sort of mystery, but there could be value there, too, and then you throw in the prospects, who could make significant impacts. Mix that together and it’s not unreasonable to think that the Orioles could still be pretty good in 2016 and beyond. If Bundy and Gausman deliver in the nearer term, the 2015 O’s could be a force, but a force without Matt Wieters and Chris Davis is still a force with some money to spend. So, you can paint a hopeful picture.

You can also paint a depressing picture. A lot depends on a group of young arms, and there’s no less-reliable set of players in baseball. If the pitchers bust, the Orioles would need new pitchers, non-busted pitchers, and those pitchers would cost them money, and they’d run out of money fast. But Bundy could be real good. Gausman could be real good. Rodriguez could be real good, and Schoop could at least be an all-right infielder for cheap, and so on. Life for the Orioles doesn’t have to end after 2015, even if Wieters and Davis both leave. Solutions could be found from within the system, because a system’s the real key to sustainable winning.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

36 Comments
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Miguel
12 years ago

Another intriguing name to consider is Henry Urrutia, who could potentially receive 500 PA this season. It’s tough to project him, but he tore up minor league pitching last year and was given a cup of coffee in the majors. Dan Duquette scooped up so many lottery/raffle tickets before the Ubaldo signing. Very curious to see which of these could potentially pan out.

Ben Suissa
12 years ago

how do i export individual player tables

Jack
12 years ago

There are also guys like David Lough and Henry Urrutia who are under control for league minimum through roughly their age 27-30 seasons, plus arbitration after that. Sort of like Miguel Gonzalez without the past two years of ML experience and definitely not “sexy,” but solid sources of potential average-ish starting position players for pennies on the dollar.

They are also likely to explore trades of Wieters and Davis if they can’t extend them the next offseason, and if not there’s the draft pick compensation.

jim fetterolf
12 years ago
Reply to  Jack

I think the Orioles will be pleasantly surprised by Lough, a high-quality defender in Kauffman Stadium’s large right field and with a decent bat that just needs a bit more patience, which he had in the minors, to become a solid everyday performer. He may even show some power in the smallish Camden Yards and he has no splits.

walt526
12 years ago

In the AL East, the pattern for the past several years is that 3 or 4 teams win 85+ games and there’s one really lousy team. In my mind, the Orioles are as likely to by one of those 85+ win teams as the Rays, and those two teams are each more likely than the Jays and less likely than the Yankees or Red Sox. Given the economics of baseball, that’s probably going to be the expectation for the foreseeable future.

Whether the Orioles should be buyers or sellers in 2014 depends on how the Red Sox and Yankees play as much as the Orioles’ own performance. If both BOS and NYA look like < 85 win teams and BAL seem like an 85+ team, then Baltimore should utilize their farm system to acquire some missing pieces. On the other hand, if both BOS and NYA both look like 85+ win teams, then they should be conservative and use those assets in 2015 and beyond–almost regardless of how the Orioles are playing themselves. And if the Orioles are playing really crappy despite Davis and Wieters being healthy and productive, then it makes sense to see what prospects a contending team might be willing to give up for them or other marketable pieces (e.g., Hardy).

Matthew TobinMember since 2016
12 years ago

I don’t think the windows is terribly closing. Say you lose Davis,Wieters, and Hardy. I’m not entirely convinced they are THAT worse off. Defense first catchers are cheap. Defense first shortstops are pretty cheap. The only real lose is Davis. But the upgrade in pitching could easily make up for it.

dave
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

Defense-first shortstops and catchers who slug .400+ are not so cheap, though.

Plush Butt
12 years ago
Reply to  dave

They could sign Kristers Gudlevskis to play catcher.

Matthew TobinMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  dave

Like that matters? He has been below average offensively every single year. His wRC+ last year was 86… Russell Martin was only on a 2/$16M deal and better. Yunel Escobar is essentially on a 4/$20M deal.

Richie
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

Planning on signing free agents who then play much better then everyone else figured they would is an unpromising strategy.

Matthew TobinMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

That is why you have an analytic department. You identify buy lows.

But on a serious note, neither performed terribly off mark. Martin kinda did, but catchers mature late/he had a fantastic defense/moved back to the NL where he enjoyed a ton of success with to Dodgers.

XanderK14
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

Every single year? Are you just ignoring the previous 2 seasons where he put up wRC+ of 110 and 106?

Jim
12 years ago

The way you say the following:

“Chris Tillman isn’t arbitration-eligible until 2015”

is misleading. He’s arb-eligible after this next season, and really, decisions on arb-eligible players must come by early December of that same year(so, December 2014) as to whether tender contracts to them.

The way it was said in the article makes it sound like he won’t be arb-eligible until after the 2015 season, really.

Just a nit I had to pick, sorry. 😉

Oh, Beepy
12 years ago
Reply to  Jim

Nope, it doesn’t.

That would be “Chris Tillman isn’t arb-eligible until after 2015”

Seriously?

jdbolickMember since 2016
12 years ago

The Orioles don’t yet have a window, which is why as a lifelong fan I’m fine with them not being unrealistic and spending a ton of money to chase something they’re unlikely to achieve. As magical as last season was for Chris Davis, it’s his only one ever to earn more than 2 WAR, and accounted for 88% of his career total thus far. I would actually be in favor of dealing Davis if it could bring a substantial haul. Who knows how much Boras wants, but I’d much rather spend on Wieters.

I’m also oddly not as fond of the Baltimore prospect list as the analysts you mentioned, given that I don’t think Schoop is anything special while Rodriguez and Harvey don’t yet inspire the same level of confidence I have in Bundy and Gausman. Maybe Brian Matusz and all the many others have inured me to O’s pitching flameouts.

There is some value in respectability, especially after only recently escaping from 14 consecutive losing seasons, so I’m fine with the Jimenez signing even if I’m not particularly hopeful about it. But I don’t get this media depiction of Baltimore being close enough to a championship contender that they need to “go for it.” The Orioles have a handful of pretty good players along with a respectable yet unintimidating rotation, so I’m not suggesting tearing things down, but not even Cano would have made this team great. This is the time to be patient, make smart signings when possible, and try to build toward a future where there is a chance to be great.

Richie
12 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

“Media” depicts most everybody as “close enough” such that they should “go for it.” You don’t sell ads by writing how as to the team is smartly biding its time.

tz
12 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Exactly.

And, as a lifelong Red Sox fan, Duquette is exactly the right guy for this. The Sox had become a punch-line of a franchise by the end of the Lou Gorman era, and Duquette was able to snag enough Troy O’Leary type freebies to bring the baseline up from embarrassment to mediocrity. Guys like Lough, Urrieta, and even Weeks fit the mold of zero-risk, positive upside that can keep the O’s on the fringes of contending.

As tempting as it is to try to go all-in with the expanded wild-card possibilities, the best bet is to keep the big-league club good enough to be one or two breaks away from contention, and be opportunistic during those seasons where you catch those breaks. And if the farm system becomes a sustainable asset, you can begin to plan for a long window where you can regularly “go for it”

jdbolickMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  tz

Yup, and finding those freebies is the critical component to a stars & scrubs strategy. At the end of the season when you already know how everyone did, a 6 win player plus a 0 win player were worth the same as two 3 win players. But because players have annual fluctuations in value, before and even during the season you can sort through a pool of replacement level players in hopes of finding one that exceeds expectations for that particular season. The key is not expecting and definitely not paying for that unexpected performance to continue. Keep pooling and sorting dispassionately.

tz
12 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

And Duquette’s downfall in Boston was his dispassionateness. But that was a problem only once they had advanced into a regular contention mode. Maybe he’ll learn to switch that trait off if that situation arises for him in Baltimore.

Angelsjunky
12 years ago

I think you over-state the Wieters factor, who seems to be one of those so-underrated he’s become overrated guys. Its hard to ignore his WAR trajectory over the last year; 2011 (4.6) was supposed to be the platform for superstardom but instead was the peak of his career thus far, with decline in 2012 (3.9) and 2013 (2.4).

That said, catchers seem especially prone to putting it together offensively in their late 20s, and Wieters will be 28 this year. Maybe he’s going to do a Yadier c. 2011 on us (Yadier was 28-29 in 2011).

There are looking to be some good races this year – the AL East is wide open, and the West will be competitive. Who knows about the Central, the unpredictable middle sibling of the AL family.

Preston
12 years ago

Even with Ubaldo that staff just doesn’t cut it. The rotation just doesn’t even compare to the Red Sox, Rays or Yankees. And I’m not sure there lineup is better than those teams either. The Red Sox and Rays just have deeper lineups and even though a lot has been made of the Yankees infield deficiencies I still think they might be better than the O’s. I think they are better at all three OF positions, Catcher and DH. Both teams are equally defecient at 2b, Hardy is definitely the safer bet at SS, but Jeter was better than him as recently as 2012. Basically you need Davis and Machado to be so much better than Teixeira and Kelly Johnson that it makes up for the Yankee advantages at most other positions. And both of them are likely to regress coming off of career years (not to mention Machado’s knee injury). The O’s will probably be an 80 win team and try all season to contend. But maybe they should just trade Wieters, Davis and Hardy for a huge influx of MiLB talent and build around Machado (maybe as a SS?), Jones, Guasman and Bundy.

Preston
12 years ago
Reply to  Preston

And obviously they’d have freed up plenty of money to help them build around those guys too.

usain bolt
12 years ago
Reply to  Preston

::: but Jeter was better than him as recently as 2012:::

That’s not cherry picked or anything. Total WAR last 3 seasons: Captain: 4.3, Hardy: 10.3.

Every team in the AL East has varying degrees of question marks.

Antonio Bananas
12 years ago

Honestly with their minor league talent, selling high on Davis could have made their 2016-2022 their true window right? Assuming Jones stays healthy and a fair share of guys develop and you resign smart after losing weiters and the freed up money from Davis. I just hope they aren’t in perpetual mediocrity. Seems like for now their ML roster is just good enough to look like contenders and their farm is good enough to replace them and look like contenders.

Ruki Motomiya
12 years ago

Don’t sacrifice the present for such an unstable future window. You can’t possibly predict enough to go past 2016 on any kind of window, too many variables.

tz
12 years ago
Reply to  Ruki Motomiya

I’m inclined to agree with Ruki here. In the O’s case, it doesn’t look like there’s a real “window” that jumps out in the near future, and the distant future is a crapshoot.

One thing that the O’s, Rays, and Jays have to factor in is the likelihood that either NY or Bos (or both) will be set up for a 90+ win team in any given year. So if you plan to do a deep rebuilding so you can join those guys at the top for a certain window (say 2016-2020), you might just end up in a spot where you’re battling the 2nd best of the Sox/Yanks and the 2nd best team in a weaker division for a wild card spot.

This is distinct from some of the other divisions where the “strong” teams change over the course of years. I can actually defend Dayton Moore deciding to kick off the Royals’ window when the rest of his division was a muddled mess, save for Detroit who was vulnerable due to their reliance on a stars-and-scrubs roster.

nilbog44
12 years ago

“Wieters is good…” He is? He seems incredibly average to me and a gigantic letdown

KS
12 years ago
Reply to  nilbog44

Wieters is a league average hitter… at a premium defensive position, which he fields extremely well. He’s averaged 3.3 WAR per full season and catches more innings than anyone else. There are 20-25 MLB teams who would love to have Matt Wieters.

That makes him “incredibly average and a gigantic letdown”? Maybe if you believe that every wildly-over-hyped prospect who doesn’t turn into a superman is “a gigantic letdown.” As for me, I’ll happily take what we have.

Preston
12 years ago
Reply to  KS

No every catching prospect has to turn into Joe Mauer or they are a disappointment. Although Joe Mauer isn’t a catcher anymore, which makes him a big disappointment. Everyone and everything is TERRIBLE!!!!

EricR
12 years ago
Reply to  Preston

This is nothing. A lot of SF media and many fans are convinced that Posey’s “down” 2013 was a big part of the Giants poor 2013, and are hoping for better so that we can compete. Yes, Posey was only worth 4.5+ WAR last year. Hopefully he can bounce back from his dreadful year.

dave in gb
12 years ago
Reply to  nilbog44

Judging by position, yes he is good. He a top defensive catcher who can Slg .450. His downfall is the rest of the Orioles downfall, which is an awful OBP. Look for Weiters to rebound after a bad ’13 at the plate. A day off here and there wouldn’t hurt either. He catches alot of games which could play a factor

triple_rMember since 2020
12 years ago

I wrote about this last week, actually. Their optimal year for contention is 2015, but there’s no reason to think they won’t be strong after that.

KS
12 years ago

Thank you for putting the lie to what is just another easy trope the sports media latch onto and repeat ad nauseum, without anyone actually thinking about or examining it. I never bought the notion that the Orioles had a “window” that would slam shut after 2015, and I’m glad to see someone has finally taken a close look at it.

Sam
12 years ago

I feel like I’ve been reading the portion of this article about the O’s wave of upcoming pitching prospects for years…seriously is there like a form version of this saved somewhere where all you have to do to have it ready is find/replace all the mentions of Brian Matusz with someone else?

RC
12 years ago
Reply to  Sam

Agree. The Orioles always have a good farm system because they can’t hold onto the right talent, and get to draft at the top every year.

It doesn’t really matter if you have a great farm system if you give guys like Nick Markakis big long term deals, and let better, cheaper players walk.

Jay Sunshine
12 years ago
Reply to  RC

Better, cheaper players like Freddie Bynum and Jeff Fiorentino? Of course, terrible teams hand out unreasonable contracts to 26 year-olds, like Markakis, coming of 6 WAR seasons (12.5 WAR over his first three seasons).