A Justin Verlander Trade Seems Highly Unlikely

We might as well start this off with a Buster Olney tweet:

Just from reading that tweet alone, one could infer a few things. One, that the year hasn’t gone very well for the Tigers. That much is true, and the Tigers are only in the playoff race in the way that everyone in the American League is still in the playoff race. The Tigers are closer to the AL basement than they are to a playoff spot. Two, that Justin Verlander is available, and he’s been good enough to be interesting. That much is also true. And three, that a Verlander trade is going to be very challenging to execute. That much is certainly true. Verlander’s is the most fascinating name on the trade market, but as things stand, I don’t know how two sides could come together.

There are things that make this hard that go beyond what we can see in the numbers. There are “soft” variables, so to speak, in that Verlander was drafted by the Tigers, and he’s been with them in the majors since 2005. It’s almost the exact same situation with Felix Hernandez and the Mariners, and Verlander has been a franchise icon. There are complicating factors when it comes to talking about dealing a franchise icon, and I can’t do all of the emotions justice, not being this far removed. Justin Verlander *should* be a Tiger, and he should be a Tiger until he retires, and it’s hard to get past that. No fan would want their team to be in this position.

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But organizations do have to look out for themselves, and they have to make decisions for bigger-picture reasons. It’s indicative that the Tigers are willing to listen on Verlander in the first place. They’ve already acknowledged he’s a little old to keep through a rebuild, and a rebuild appears to be looming. Verlander himself would presumably prefer to pitch for a contender. I recognize that there are soft aspects. The most I can speak to is Verlander as a pitcher.

So. Even just thinking about Verlander as a starting pitcher under contract, this is complicated. As Olney tweeted, Verlander’s got another two and a half guaranteed years. The rest of the way in 2017, Verlander’s due about half of $28 million. The following two seasons, he’ll be due $28 million each. There’s a $22-million vesting option for 2020. None of these salaries seem outrageous, given that, last season, Verlander was arguably the best pitcher in his league. He had a remarkable comeback story, and a lot of people feel he should’ve won the Cy Young. The Justin Verlander of 2016 was an ace, a familiar sort of workhorse. The Justin Verlander of 2017 has been a mess.

It’s not that Verlander has been horrible. He’s not the reason why the Tigers find themselves where they are in the standings. But, so far, Verlander has started 17 games. Let’s examine his career in terms of strikeout-to-walk ratio:

What I actually prefer is K-BB%. We don’t have automated plots for that. There are 106 starting pitchers who have thrown at least 50 innings in each of the last two seasons. Verlander has had the single biggest K-BB% drop, at -12%. His strikeouts are down, and his walks are at a career high. To make matters worse, behold:

Verlander’s got a career-high hard-hit rate. Out of that same starting-pitcher sample, his hard-hit-rate increase is the fifth-largest. Granted, he’s joined by two other Tigers in the top five, so there could be something else going on, but it’s not a good look. Verlander has suffered in every department — every department, that is, but one.

Just on paper, by the statistics, Verlander looks to be a declining asset. And, hell, he’s 34. He *is* a declining asset, almost certainly. Yet what’s strange is that, if anything, his stuff is stronger. Compared to last year, all of his pitches are faster. You expect aging pitchers to get worse because they’re no longer able to generate the same force. Verlander’s got all of his strength, but his results have dipped substantially, which is not an easy thing to explain.

If I had to guess, I might pinpoint Verlander’s arm action. Here are his average vertical release points, from Brooks Baseball:

Verlander had lower release points in 2016 than he had in 2015, and he was outstanding. Yet his release points have dropped only more, and the numbers have gone in the wrong direction. Verlander has spoken this year about making arm-slot adjustments, so this could even be intentional, but success hasn’t yet followed. Verlander’s throwing similarly to how he used to, but by the player-page numbers, he isn’t recognizable as himself. Things change over five or six years.

What the Tigers have is a prized asset, kind of. Verlander has as much name value as anyone, and it would be tough to top his track record. He’s bounced back from a major performance dip before, and so he’s proven that he can make the adjustments he has to make to continue. There’s no reason, right now, to worry that his stuff is declining. It’s just that, according to how 2017 Verlander has actually thrown, his stuff has declined, in that opposing hitters have been treating him worse. A team on the other side of a Verlander trade needs only to be thinking about what Verlander could and would provide. Ultimately, teams are all results-oriented, and Verlander doesn’t have the results. Not to take a chance on, given that Verlander’s salaries aren’t actually cheap.

In a way, this is reminiscent of the Pirates and Andrew McCutchen over the winter. The Pirates made the difficult decision to make McCutchen available. And there was interest, because McCutchen had the track record of being a star player. But McCutchen was also coming off a very disappointing season, which other teams cared about more than the Pirates did. The Pirates asked for the moon, valuing McCutchen as if he wasn’t possibly in decline. Other teams were hesitant to give up too much in the way of youth for a potential has-been. McCutchen never got traded, and now he’s bounced back at least some of the way. So he’s back on the trade block again. But no agreement came close to being reached in December.

This situation is that situation, except that Verlander might have even less of a chance to provide future surplus value. McCutchen is younger than Verlander, and his 2017 and 2018 salaries combined are about one of Verlander’s individual years. To be worth his cost, Verlander has to be a No. 1. Teams around deadline time love talking about No. 1 starters, but Verlander hasn’t been one of those in a while. Trading teams are likely to be conservative, when it comes to valuing the Justin Verlander of today. The Tigers are going to have a longer memory.

It’s not that anything is impossible. Johnny Cueto had a very disappointing half-year to close out 2015. The Giants still gave him a large free-agent contract, with a two-year opt-out clause. Cueto’s stock didn’t necessarily plummet. And you could look at Zack Greinke — after last season, he seemed almost untradeable, as if his contract were underwater. He’s back now to being an ace, and perhaps he wasn’t given enough benefit of the doubt. Greinke had established himself as a capable front-end starter who could adjust on the fly. Verlander might adjust and it might all click. He doesn’t have to be finished, and this is why teams have been giving the Tigers a call. You can’t just ignore it when a guy like Justin Verlander becomes available to you.

To get a big prospect haul, though, it seems like the Tigers would have to eat a whole lot of money. This is more of an either/or situation; the Tigers could get prospects, or they could get payroll relief. I can’t see the Tigers settling for a Verlander trade where they just send him and his salaries away, and there’s little coming in return. So the Tigers need to be seen receiving a valuable package, but they also want to shed that money. I don’t know what organization out there would meet the demands. I know Verlander has been compared to 1998 Randy Johnson, who flipped an ERA switch after a midseason move, but by the numbers, Johnson and Verlander aren’t comparable. Johnson’s statistical decline was more of a mirage, while Verlander’s strikes me as more worrisome.

There would be one easy solution to this. Skeptical teams wouldn’t need that much convincing that the great Justin Verlander is back. If he rips off a few dominant starts in a row, that changes everything. Then the Tigers *could* behave as if they’re dangling a certain ace. But if that doesn’t happen, I’m not sure how an agreement is reached in the following weeks. There’s just too much of a divide, I have to think, and so I’d place the likelihood on Verlander sticking around where he is, for at least the rest of this year.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

22 Comments
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sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago

His velo is fine, though, so there’s a decent chance of bouncing back into a #2 type of starter, the kind of guy you can count on in a playoff rotation. But if you’re spending $88 million for a guy’s 35-38 seasons on the hope he’ll bounce back…unless they give him away, I agree with Jeff: It just seems like there are better solutions for all possible suitors.

AnonMember since 2020
9 years ago

Verlander has 10 and 5 rights. He can veto any trade. People keep talking about him being traded and nobody mentions it. It’s likely that even if he did want out of Detroit, he would ask for something. Maybe that the vesting option be guaranteed.

BTW, Miggy and VMart have the same issue.

baseball bettorMember since 2017
9 years ago

Let me say that I’m thinking outside of the box here but a part of me think this makes some sense: Verlander’s fastball is still dynamite not only from his excellent velocity levels (11th best in MLB among qualified starters) but by the fact his FB is also ranked as the 9th best FB in ‘pitch value’ for the season in MLB. It seems the biggest problem for Verlander this year has been his usually very reliable off-speed stuff has been way down this season.

Considering how Andrew Miller nearly carried the Indians to a WS crown last year I wonder if some forward thinking team might be interested in acquiring Justin Verlander for that exact same role for this upcoming post-season, basically using him in the highest leverage spots and letting him uncork his elite mid to upper 90’s heat.

Obviously the plan would be to put him back into the starting rotation next season but since post-season baseball is played differently now than during the regular season (esp after how well it worked for the Indians last year). It almost seems Verlander is made for this role with his electric FB still in very good form. Like the article said I doubt a team is going to want to lock themselves into that contract commitment risk but if they can get the Tigers to pay a portion of I wonder if some team with good SP might attempt this.

AnonMember since 2020
9 years ago

No disrespect, but that might be the least likely thing I’ve ever seen posted on this site. First off, what team would be better with Verlander in the pen than starting? The old Verlander is probably gone for good but he is still the 36th best pitcher in the majors by WAR. Yes his numbers are a little off this year but he’s less than a year removed from a 16-3, 3.04 ERA in 227 IP season (3.48 FIP, 3.78 xFIP and note that Verlander has beat his xFIP significantly over his career). Literally there is no team that wouldn’t take Verlander and drop him right into their rotation immediately. He might be a teams’ 3rd starter at worst (Nats, Indians, maybe Astros)

Secondly, I cannot for the life of me see Verlander signing off on that. He’s a starter. He expects to be a starter. He’s old school, he expects to go 7 at least. Heck, he likely expects to go the distance every time. As I noted above, he has 10 and 5 rights. What team is going to go to Verlander and ask him to waive that and come be a middle reliever for them?

Sorry, but that just isn’t happening in this world.

baseball bettorMember since 2017
9 years ago
Reply to  Anon

His numbers aren’t as you said “a little off this year”…….. they are way off!!! His ERA is nearly 5.00 on the season (108th overall in MLB out of 155 SP having thrown 40 IP minimum currently). He also ranked 119th in xFIP and 109th in Sierra (SP with 40IP minimum). The top 150 starting pitchers in IP is equal to an average of 5 starters per team on average (30 teams overall) showing how he’s clearly pitched like a #bad #4 or good #5 so far this season.

My whole point is his off-speed stuff has been bad this year basically turning him into a two-pitch pitcher which is exactly what Miller is. If salary means everything than why doesn’t Cleveland start Miller? It’s because he’s a major weapon in his particular role and all of this play’s to Miller’s strengths. You take Verlander’s weakness and try and eliminate it. This isn’t much different than the surge of pitchers we’ve seen this year who have went to throwing their very best pitches (even though their off-speed pitch) a higher percentage/majority of the time and for Verlander that mean’s his elite FB is used a high amount of times.

Like I stated the Tigers would have to pay some of his contract and you’d also have to place him back in the SP next season also. Add in that you’d be starting him for the rest of this regular season as well so what are we talking about here, basically not paying him SP money for a couple playoff starts? Instead you are placing him in the bullpen to play to what his been his obvious strengths have been this year. So in the end we’re talking about MAYBE a total 10-15 less innings pitched overall (Miller threw the 2nd most amount of post-season innings for the Indians last year). Instead you spread out his innings to be thrown in higher leverage situations which is extra crucial in the post-season as every out he gets puts you one big step closer to the ultimate goal of winning a ring.

This isn’t something also that would be needed to be addressed by a team until the post-season arrives either and could be a team’s answer if they acquire him and he continues to struggle clearly showing he’s not among a team’s top 4 starters by season’s end. You can use this as a strategy or as a fall back plan which makes acquiring possibly less of a risk.

Like I stated it’s obviously outside the box thinking but if someone does pick him up and he struggles than this very likely could end up being the plan making “the least likely thing ever posted at this site” actually true.

AnonMember since 2020
9 years ago

I figured my response might upset you. That’s fine, I get it.

But someone acquiring Verlander to make him a middle reliever only to put him back in the rotation next year is plain and simply not going to happen.

Art Fay
9 years ago

That’s a reeeeeeally expensive high-leverage man. I love your idea of him being a specialized weapon, especially in a down year, but your idea probably limits his suitors even further to the teams that print money. I feel like only the big bully teams like the Dodgers & Cubs can afford to just burn cash on Verlander. The rest of the teams have budgets that affect decisions etc. I think making him the Roger Clemens of relievers ($1M per appearance) would be hilarious. I hope that happens 🙂

abgb123
9 years ago

I’m not sure how “out of the box” this thinking is, we see this all the time, teams use struggling power pitchers out of the bullpen in the post season (and the regular season, Trevor Bauer). I don’t imagine any FO or Ownership is going to acquire Verlander with the eye on having him come out of the BP in the PS, my guess would be that the BP idea would be plan B and they would try to squeeze every possible inning out of the 70-88 mil arm.

Also don’t think that Francona revolutionized anything, didn’t Botchy do this exact same thing with Tim Lincecum? This has been going on forever, Francona just took it to the next level.

Joey Butts
9 years ago

“… they’re danging a certain ace.”

No need for such harsh language, Jeff.

113CandleMagic
9 years ago

There could be something going on with the Tigers’ pitching staff. All of our starters (except Fulmer, funnily enough) have had their walk rates increase in 2017. Why, I don’t know.

GoNYGoNYGoGo
9 years ago
Reply to  113CandleMagic

Perhaps the new Detroit catcher Alex Avila isn’t all that in pitch framing?

Duran65
9 years ago
Reply to  GoNYGoNYGoGo

James McCann and Saltalamacchia (the Tigers’ backup last year) are both worse framers than Avila, so I don’t see how adding a (relatively) better framing catcher is the problem. Michael Fulmer seems to be immune. Maybe because- and I know this is gonna sound radical- the pitchers are just bad and Fulmer is the only decent arm in the lot?

Verlander’s catchers aren’t the ones causing all his pitches to be fouled off. He doesn’t have swing and miss stuff this year.

abgb123
9 years ago
Reply to  Duran65

Framing stats seem to not only fluctuate in the extreme but they also seem to take time to normalize.

I’m lazy so I’m not going to bother looking for the information but it seems like last year his pitches had more horizontal movement and now everything kind of looks flat.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
9 years ago

Verlander might very well manage another bounce back like he did before and physically he still seems to be strong. But at that age the end still can come quickly and the price tag is very high.

There probably will be some controllable young good pitchers on the block (quintana and gray at the very least) so Verlander would need to be significantly cheaper. Even with the Tigers eating much of the salary teams probably still would prefer the younger option so he still would fetch less than one of the young guys (probably one top100 and one or two solid non ranked prospects that are like in the 150 range).

And it also makes no sense to just take the salary relief and a couple fringe prospects. Yeah it would be some extra revenue for the owner but when the Tigers really do a rebuild payroll flexibility over the next 2 to 3 years won’t help them much anyway because they won’t really acquire good free agents.

So the question is if the Tigers really eat like 70 millions to send away a club icon and get a solid return but not a haul (say the 60th ranked prospect and two 45s)?

He is technically not untradeable but I’m not sure if that makes sense with the obvious problems there are.

Now if someone is willing to throw in a 60 prospect and does not expect all the money to be eaten that changes the situation but I don’t think that there are enough dumb front offices left in the game to do that trade. So practically he probably is untradeable.

GottaHaveHart
9 years ago

I wonder if he’s compensating for the velo loss by throwing ‘harder’ and creating a more forced delivery. All his pitches will hold or gain velo, but be harder to control. Maybe he’s just overthrowing all his pitches trying to hold velocity/movement that he knows he’s losing?

KwisatzHaderachMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  GottaHaveHart

No I don’t think so. He’s still having no trouble sustaining his velo beyond 100 pitches per outing. His spin rate on his fastball is still elite. He did have a groin issue in May, so possibly there’s something bothering him, but his command has been spotty all season, though just by the eye test he sure doesn’t seem to get any calls off the plate, which would fit with James McCann being a godawful receiver, and Avila not too much better.

KwisatzHaderachMember since 2016
9 years ago

This is by no means a complete explanation for his walk issues, but a decent chunk of it involves that lower arm angle IMO. He’s thrown a lot more slurvy curveballs instead of his normal 12/6 hammer this season. Coupled with a harder slider with little depth, and he just isn’t missing as many bats. Getting less consistent depth on the breaking balls, and they’ve been less effective as a result. So even when ahead in the count he’s struggling to put hitters away to the degree he did last year. Couple that with the high foul ball rate of a high spin fourseam fastball that he uses up in the zone a lot, and you have a lot of long at bats, more often ending in walks. Control is probably overall the bigger issue, but the arm angle has played a role in the diminished swing and miss in his game. As has the disappearance of his changeup. Physically, he looks incredible, especially for a 34 year old starter with more mileage than anyone in the game other than probably C.C.

iBEGuRGaRDeN
9 years ago

Excellent post!

FEATSportsMember since 2022
9 years ago

Pretty sure your explanations on the quality fall in line with the high averages against his secondary offerings. Great points. But his velo’s are up for his secondary stuff so wouldn’t that negate depth issues and sharpness of breaking pitches problems? He does look amazing and you are 100% right about control issues.

LHPSU
9 years ago

I’m not entirely sure Verlander gets claimed if Tigers put him on waivers.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
9 years ago

Sure, the Tigers can expect a big, big, big return without salary offsets. But the vast majority of that return is going to be not having to pay Justin Verlander $70 million. Maybe they get a couple B/B- prospects, too.

Most teams simply can’t just add $10 million-plus to their payroll mid season, so only the big market teams would even have a chance of making a deal.

FEATSportsMember since 2022
9 years ago

Reminds me a lot of Michael Pineda’s situation this year except he walks less guys. Guy with strong stuff but is being hit rather easily. Two things It could be.

1st: Too many pitches around the plate but the walk rate is up. This seems to be the situation…say he gives up a hit, he starts nibbling and walking guys, because he’s nervous about getting blasted. Then he starts falling behind in counts due to nibbling and the hit fest begins. Guys know that eventually he’s coming fastball down the middle to even up the count. That BAA looks alot like his 2013 year and I think that’s where this year might be directioning towards. He’s 34 so this could be the beginning of the downward trend but with the Velo up it may be an aberration.

2nd thing: He’s likely tipping pitches and won’t listen to anyone about it. Need to watch more video but that’s a guess. No way a guy with his stuff should be getting hit like this. All his pitch velo’s are up too so he could be throwing everything too hard but the pitch velo separations between his fastball and other pitches are about where they have always been so that’s confusing as well. .

I think it’s an aberration and if he can get ahead in counts he will be fine. All his damage comes when he is behind in the count. Isn’t that the case for anyone. in 2017, if you look at his best slot it’s when he start’s 0-1 and can move be aggressive attacking the plate. He can’t shy away after the first hit. He’s gotta be Verlander!!!

Comparison

2016: His TBF scenarios that were most frequent were 0-1, 1-0, 1-1. Respective averages:.181,.220,.186
2017: The same: Respective averages: .253,.238,.208

It means he’s gotta stay aggressive with the fastball and out of predictable counts and stop nibbling. Batters are only hitting .243 off of fastball and crushing his other pitches except the curve. 34 walks and 34 singles so they are not lighting up the fastball as much as it seems. Only 24 percent of hits against his fastball are for xbh while it’s more like 40% to 50% in other areas.