Always the Bridesmaid: The Juan Soto Story

Gregory Fisher-Imagn Images

Juan Soto wants a Most Valuable Player award. Plenty of players give voice to outsized ambitions during spring training, but at this point in Soto’s career, the goal seems downright reasonable. The future Hall of Famer already has a World Series ring, a batting title, a stolen base crown, a Home Run Derby trophy, and bunch of All-Star nods and Silver Sluggers. Seeing as he’s unlikely to get a Gold Glove (barring some sort of trophy swap situation with Francisco Lindor), an MVP certainly seems like the next box to check. But as great as Soto has been since the moment he debuted for the Nationals in 2018, he doesn’t have a well-rounded game, and I’ve always had a sneaking suspicion that his weaknesses might keep him from ever winning an MVP. Now that it’s his stated goal, let’s take a closer look at his chances.

Soto is one of the best and most consistent players in the game. According to JAWS, he’s already the 36th-best right fielder of all time, and he’s still three years too young to be the president (in the Dominican Republic; he’s eight years too young in the USA). Since his first full season in 2019, he’s missed an average of just seven games per season and he’s never put up a wRC+ below 143. In any given season, if you had to pick the player most likely to rack up at least 5.0 WAR, Soto would be your guy. But his game is also incomplete. He’s the second coming of Ted Williams, in ways both good and bad. He’s got the other-worldly plate discipline and the power, but he’s also got the putrid outfield defense.

Soto is well aware of his deficiencies. “I feel like everybody tries to do better than what they did before,” he told Anthony DiComo of MLB.com. “I would definitely love to be better around the bases and better around the outfield. Even hitting, I try to keep my hitting increased. Thank God I’ve been doing well the past couple seasons. I’ve been putting numbers up there, career highs and stuff like that. So I just want to keep doing the same thing. I try to be better year after year.”

Across his eight-year career, Soto has missed the top 10 in the MVP voting just twice: his rookie season of 2018, when he didn’t debut until mid-May, and 2022, when his performance fell off (by his lofty standards, anyway) after a deadline trade to the Padres. But he’s always been right there. He finished third in the voting in each of the last two seasons, and he also has two second-place finishes under his belt. He really could have won it a bunch of times now! But it usually takes an outlier season to win the MVP, a season where you put it all together, and Soto has never quite had it all. He would have made a much better MVP candidate earlier in baseball history. Long gone are the days of Juan Gonzalez turning gaudy home run and RBI totals into trophies despite finishing below 5.0 WAR.

The convergence between sabermetric analysis and awards voting is well documented. “MVP winners with relatively low bWAR-related metrics all but disappeared by 2008,” wrote Benjamin Alter in the Spring 2023 Baseball Research Journal. “In the last 15 seasons, only one MVP winner (Bryce Harper in 2021) failed to finish in the top 5 in bWAR (Harper finished ninth among non-pitchers). Sixteen of the last 28 MVPs led their league in bWAR.”

We now have a couple more years of data to play with, so here’s how I’d couch the numbers: Over the past 10 years, 90% of MVPs have gone to a position player (or, in the case of Ohtani, a two-way player) who either led his league in bWAR or finished within 0.4 of the leader. In order to win an MVP, you either have to be the WAR leader, or be close enough that someone can make a plausible argument that the numbers are a wash.

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By that standard, Soto should probably have an MVP already. In that 2021 season where Harper won the NL MVP with just 5.9 bWAR, Soto put up 7.3, most among National League batters, and second only to Zack Wheeler in the whole NL. (Wheeler arguably got hosed even worse than Soto. He lost the Cy Young to Corbin Burnes, who pitched unbelievably and even beat Wheeler in fWAR thanks to a 1.63 FIP, but threw just 167 innings to Wheeler’s 213 1/3.) Harper outslugged Soto, putting up a 170 wRC+ to Soto’s 164, but he played 10 fewer games, and most galling of all, his defense graded out even worse than Soto’s. This was also the year before the Phillies ended their postseason drought and advanced all the way to the World Series, so it’s not like Harper led a team to the playoffs and Soto didn’t.

While WAR isn’t perfect and shouldn’t be the sole determinant of MVP, it’s the purest distillation of how we think about player value. As Michael Baumann wrote two years ago, “It’s indisputable that baseball writers know more about the sport now than they did 20 years ago. And it’s not really because the old heads let the bloggers and nerds into the clubhouse. Everyone knows more about baseball now than they did 20 years ago.” Yesterday, I spoke to Noah Frank, who created a model to predict award winners for Baseball Prospectus. He pointed to another issue. “I think what has started to happen is, because everyone’s vote is public and because of social media, there is this pressure to not be the guy that goes against what everyone has agreed should happen,” he explained.

These days, you’re likely to have to defend your award picks publicly. Here at FanGraphs, we run articles explaining the thinking behind our picks every year one of us has a vote. It’s a lot harder to explain a gut feeling, or in the case of 2025, to make the completely fair argument that WAR underestimates the million extra contributions of catchers. “As little as five years ago, Cal Raleigh wins over Aaron Judge,” said Frank. “I’m certain of that.” Five years ago is an instructive timeframe, as that’s the year Harper won with just 5.9 bWAR. Since then, every MVP winner has put up at least 7.7 bWAR, a figure Soto has only reached once in his career.

Batting is by far the most important component, but WAR is an overall number. That means it dings players like Soto whose games are pointy rather than well-rounded. Soto’s ugly defense is no match for his mighty bat. It’s not going to keep him from being one of the game’s most valuable players any time soon. But it has already, multiple times, kept him from being the most valuable.

That brings us at last to the elephant in the room. Shohei Ohtani, who has won three straight MVPs and four in the last five years, is the player who sparked this conversation in the first place. “I’m going to be there every year too,” Soto said before finishing his sentence in a manner that all but begs to be taken out of context, “so he better keep doing what he’s doing, because I’m coming.” Ohtani’s two-way play is not just thrilling and unique, but a reliable way to rack up WAR. “It’s really hard to not reward what he’s doing when the numbers are better,” said Frank. “You’re going to have to beat him on paper.”

I didn’t plan on it, but my conversation with Frank ended up being just as much about Ohtani as Soto. “The hardest thing for me to do now in terms of the model is trying to figure out how to quantify what Shohei is doing,” he said. “The MVP is a position player. All the inputs that go into it are position player metrics. How do I represent that?” The answer, he found, was simply to model Ohtani as a position player, then dump his pitcher WAR on top of it. As long as Ohtani has that propping up his floor, Soto’s going to be at a disadvantage. “You hate to say this because this is so deeply unfair to him,” said Frank, “but I think his best bet of winning an MVP is probably Shohei encountering more arm injuries.”

Now that I’ve written all that depressing stuff, let’s talk about the many reasons I might be wrong. First, defensive numbers are fluky. They’re heavily dependent on the opportunities you get. Even if Soto’s defense never improves, he could still have a couple seasons where it grades out fine. He has a strong arm, and he has put up good throwing numbers in the past. Now that he’s playing in left field, he might have a few more chances to throw runners out at third base.

Also working in Soto’s favor is that bWAR tends to be the most widely referenced flavor of WAR in the MVP discussion, and its defensive component is calculated using Defensive Runs Saved. Among the big three advanced defensive metrics, DRS is by far the high-man on Soto’s defense. Since 2020, Statcast’s Fielding Run Value has Soto at -29 runs, eighth worst in baseball. Baseball Prospectus’ Deserved Runs Prevented has him at -9.7, 18th worst in the game. DRS has Soto at -13, 79th worst in the game. That’s still a far cry from good, but thinking he’s just regular bad instead of worst-in-baseball bad is a huge step up.

We also need to acknowledge that Soto’s baserunning has taken a big jump. From 2020 to 2024, Soto had never once been a net positive on the bases. He is slow. He’d never stolen more than 12 bases in a season, and he wasn’t great at taking the extra base. But in 2025, he led the NL with 38 stolen bases and finished 22nd in baserunning value. We’ve written about this more than a few times, and the general consensus around the league was that first base coach Antoan Richardson was largely responsible for the Mets’ sudden ability to steal bases at will. That’s not to say that Soto wasn’t working hard on the intricacies of baserunning, but at one point, he at least made it sound like he was simply running whenever Richardson told him to go. After some confusing negotiations, Richardson left New York for Atlanta this winter. It remains to be seen whether Soto’s sudden baserunning ability will leave town, too. If it doesn’t, if he can keep his baserunning somewhere around neutral, it would be a big help.

It’s also possible that Soto could simply mash his way to an MVP. He’s nearly done it several times now, and this is a situation where the case of the Splendid Splinter is instructive. Williams won the AL MVP in 1946 and 1949. In those two years, he led the AL (and all of baseball) in WAR. His defense was still bad, but he ran a 211 wRC+ in 1946 and a 181 wRC+ in 1949. Even by modern standards, he hit so well that the rest just didn’t matter. Soto is certainly capable of reaching those heights. Williams’ 181 mark from 1949 matches Soto’s full-season high, and he also put up a 202 wRC+ in the short 2020 season. Moreover, Soto’s power numbers are on the upswing. He’s exceeded 40 homers in the last two years because he’s hitting the ball harder than ever and putting it in the air much more frequently. Maybe he’s got an Aaron Judge season in him, and as Frank pointed out, being on a Mets team that’s determined to win could also be useful. “The Mets are going to be good,” he said. “They’re going to put good hitters around and behind him. That’s going to add to his counting stats.”

The last piece of good news is that Soto has plenty of time. He’s just 27 years old, and as recently as 2022, the 34-year-old Paul Goldschmidt won the NL MVP. It’s not a stretch to assume that Soto has eight years to achieve his goal. That’s a lot of bites at the apple, and it brings us back to Ohtani, who is four years older than Soto. If nothing else, we should expect Ohtani to start his decline first, while Soto is still in his prime. I also don’t think it’s a given that voters will continue to value Ohtani the way Frank’s model does – simply adding his pitching WAR onto his credentials as a hitter – when he either has a down year or starts to decline.

Let’s use the 2025 season as an example. Even without his pitching, Ohtani led all NL batters in two versions of WAR, but he was behind Geraldo Perdomo, who provided excellent baserunning and defense, in bWAR. With the pitching, he was the obvious, unanimous choice, but without it, he wouldn’t have been a runaway champion. Now let’s tweak his numbers some.

Say, in a future season, instead of producing a 172 wRC+, Ohtani runs the 142 he put up in 2022. It’s enough to keep him in Soto’s league, but it’s still clearly a bit behind a typical Soto season. (Soto’s career wRC+ is 158, and only once in the last six seasons has he finished with a mark below 150.) Now, say Ohtani’s pitching falls off some, too. He makes 25 starts, but his ERA and FIP are up around 4.00. It would add two or three wins to his WAR total, pushing him safely past Soto. Once again, he would put up more value than anybody else, and once again he’d be doing it in a way that nobody else can compete with. But crucially, he’d no longer be spectacular in either facet of the game. He’d be a great hitter who’s also not that far removed from an innings eater. That would make him the undeniable leader in WAR, but we might start to view him a little differently. We might start to see a distinction between the most valuable player in the league and the Most Valuable Player award winner.

Now, combine that scenario with the voter fatigue that is bound to kick in at some point when one guy has won four of the last five MVPs. Lastly, consider the correlate of voter fatigue. At some point, voters will start to worry that first ballot Hall of Famer Juan Soto is in danger of retiring without a single MVP award. The lifetime achievement MVP is harder to come by these days, when the voting is so WAR-focused, but that sentiment could certainly give a player like him a little boost.

As I said at the outset, my gut has told me for a while now that Soto is unlikely to win an MVP. It’s certainly not impossible, and time is on his side for a couple of reasons, but it will take something special. Unless he finds yet another gear at the plate for an entire season, or unless there’s another season like 2021, where the standards are a little bit lower, he will continue to be the maid of honor. And even if one or two of those things do happen, Shohei Ohtani could always swoop in and object to this union with with a combined WAR of 11.0. Should I have started this wedding metaphor before the final paragraph of the article? Yes, that would have been the best course of action. But if Juan Soto has taught us anything, it’s that second or third best can be pretty damn good, too.





Davy Andrews is a Brooklyn-based musician and a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @davyandrewsdavy.bsky.social.

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slamcactusMember since 2024
4 months ago

Just once I want to see Soto have a year with some above-average ball-in-play luck. He’s underperformed his xwOBA 5 years running, sometimes dramatically (39 points in 2025, 43 in 2024), sometimes not so much (9 points in 2021). But he’s never dramatically overperformed it. Could have a Judge-type season in him if the bounces start going his way for a change.

slamcactusMember since 2024
4 months ago
Reply to  slamcactus

(and yes, I know there could be/probably are structural reasons behind his consistent under-performance, like lesser quality of contact to the opposite field, but he could still see a few more bounces go his way)

Anon21Member since 2018
4 months ago
Reply to  slamcactus

I don’t know if you can definitively say this is just bad luck. xWOBA is a model, and it may not work as well at extremes. He’s run high BABIPs at times in his career, although not in past four years. Acuña is another guy who tends to underperform his sterling xWOBA (although he did slightly overperform it last season).

slamcactusMember since 2024
4 months ago
Reply to  Anon21

Yeah, I’m sure there are reasons for it, but I’m equally sure that those reasons shouldn’t result in a 40+ point gap year to year without at least a little bad luck, if for no other reason than he’s been much closer to his expected stats in the past (12 points off it in 2023, 9 in 2021, 15 in 2019, 20 points OVER it in his ~70% of the season debut in 2018).

dl80Member since 2026
4 months ago
Reply to  slamcactus

An increasing number of fly balls (mostly to the pull side) is probably helping with power and harming his BABIP

dan norman learMember since 2024
4 months ago

Look, yes, he’s likely going to be a HOF player, but is it necessary to call him a future Hall of Famer when he’s 27, will likely be a major leaguer another dozen years, barring catastrophe, and you’re writing a article about how difficult it will be for him to win an MVP? Can he just have his career first?

jb1205Member since 2022
4 months ago

He may be only 27, but he’s already played in 8 seasons and would qualify for the HOF as early as next season. He’s indisputably one of the best offensive players of all time. His career wRC+ is in the top 20 for all qualified hitters (ahead of Ohtani) and everyone ahead of him on that leaderboard is either in the HOF, headed for the HOF (Judge, Trout), blackballed (Bonds, Shoeless Joe) or Yordan Alvarez. Even with poor defense, he’s already at 42+ WAR and has a good shot at hitting 60 before his 30th birthday. Barring anything catastrophic or legacy-tainting, he is absolutely a future HOF.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
4 months ago
Reply to  jb1205

Yeah, I am quite sympathetic to the “let’s not get ahead of ourselves” objection in general but it loses its rationale when the player’s career to date comes close to passing the “hit by a bus” Hall of Fame test. Soto isn’t quite there but he’s not as far as people think.

dan norman learMember since 2024
4 months ago

It isn’t actually getting ahead of ourselves. It’s that the phrase “future hall of famer” has become a lazy piece of writing in discussing players the last 10 years. It is one thing when writing about Max Scherzer or Justin Verlander, players palpably on their last legs, and another when the player has literally played fewer than half the seasons they are likely to play. It is a remarkably small critique to offer that calling someone a future hall of famer possibly 20 years before they are eligible to be voted in is a go-to that could have been not gone to.

gydemeMember since 2026
4 months ago

I think it was only gone to this time around to drive home how good Soto is, and has been, juxtaposed next to how slim his MVP chances really are.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
4 months ago

I guess I don’t really understand your objection, then. If it’s not that you believe Soto is uncertain/unlikely to enter the Hall of Fame in the future, then it’s not that you think the phrase is actually false… so you just don’t like it because the “future” being discussed is too many years away? What’s the threshold number of years before the future is near enough to be discussed? And does this also apply to, like, the future loss of the polar icecaps, or is it a baseball-specific thing?

frankenspock
4 months ago

And yet you might be shocked to learn just how many baseball fans out there have no real idea just how good Soto is. Sometimes it’s important to remind them.

dan norman learMember since 2024
4 months ago
Reply to  jb1205

I’m glad we agree on barring catastrophe.

frankenspock
4 months ago

We’ve also heard people make this argument bout Ohtani. It’s just as ridiculous for either player. Both are going to be in the Hall of Fame barring career-ending injuries within the next three years. Shohei might already have done enough.

It’s just a simple observation. You’re acting like we can only assess the greatness of a player the moment they announce their retirement.

PhilMember since 2016
4 months ago
Reply to  frankenspock

I think both Soto and Ohtani are HoFs now if they suffered career ending injury or some other awful tragedy – Soto will then keep on appearing in these top 20 hitters of all time lists, and Ohtani, well, he’s a 4 time MVP, a unicorn.

I think the only way Soto doesn’t get in (barring something disqualifying) is if he is basically replacement level over the rest of his contract – he can be a slightly below average player and still clear 60WAR. It will drag down the rate states, and he’d end up looking like a worse hitter (and possibly even worse defender) than someone like Gary Sheffield. I think Ohtani gets in even if he turns into a replacement level player for the rest of his contract.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 months ago
Reply to  frankenspock

One weird thing about this discussion is that “future Hall of Famer” means two different things, which I didn’t recognize until I read this comment. And I think Ohtani’s fourth MVP has moved him up a category.

At some point he was in the “future Hall of Famer, barring catastrophic injury that ends his career” category which is where Soto is currently. Now he is clearly in the “future Hall of Famer, period” category.

In retrospect I think there was a decent chance he was in that category sooner than that and I just didn’t know it. But 2025 removes whatever doubt I had left about his future Hall of Fame candidacy.

I still think Soto is a future hall of famer but it means something different for him than for Ohtani.

carterMember since 2020
4 months ago

He’s over 90% to make the hof. The other 10% is some sort of scandal. I guess you can bake in becoming replacement level rest of his career. But he runs out his contract putting up 2 war a year (which won’t happen) he makes the HOF. That puts him at 70 war. He literally has 14 more seasons. If he averages 3 war a year, that’s 84 war. 4 war? 98 war and right around Joe Morgan and ahead of Pujols and Ripken. Nothing is a lock in life, but if I was a betting man, and I am, I’d easily take -1000 odds he makes hof. Of course that would require locking up money for 19 years so it wouldn’t work in practice, but in like some sort of instant payout scenario

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
4 months ago

Frankly, I don’t think Ohtani has to fall significantly in pitching, but the offensive numbers are crucial here. We already have an example of Ohtani putting up merely good numbers as a hitter and not winning the MVP: 2022.

Of course it took Judge putting up one of the best offensive seasons in baseball history to do that — and he still dropped two first place votes to Ohtani. So yeah, he’d have to do some crazy stuff probably — think 50+ HRs, OBP in the high .400s, plus a boost from let’s say, the Mets winning the division. It’d also help to get out to a really great start to the season — it’s easier to have the impression in April/May as a frontrunner than having to “pull up” your numbers with a great 2nd half (IMO).

frankenspock
4 months ago

Funny to think that Ohtani falling significantly in offense basically just means he was somewhere at the level of a Kyle Tucker. I get it though; there is an Ohtani bar, and somewhere around 2 WAR under it is an opening where another player can slip in and steal an MVP from him.

carterMember since 2020
4 months ago

Injury seems like the most likely chance. But a year of hits falling, maybe somehow continuing stealing bases, slightly better D…and 500obp and 45 home runs. That seems like his chance, which feels insane to say

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 months ago

There are a lot of great players who are going to miss out on MVP awards because their peaks overlapped with Judge and Ohtani. But the two that stand out to me are Cal Raleigh and Bobby Witt.

It is weird to think that Juan Soto might have a better shot at making the Hall of Fame than winning an MVP. But all that has to happen for someone to beat out Judge or Ohtani is for them to get so hurt they miss too much of the year. Whether that is Witt, Raleigh, Soto, Gunnar Henderson, Corbin Carroll, or even Konnor Griffin I don’t know. But with how hard Ohtani throws and how big Judge is and their ages it seems likely it is going to happen to both of them at some point in the next 3-5 years.

matthayden4Member since 2024
4 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Your post had me thinking of the best position players of all-time to never win an MVP award. Maybe Mel Ott tops the list?

MikeSMember since 2020
4 months ago
Reply to  matthayden4

Good question for the Saturday Mailbag.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 months ago
Reply to  MikeS

Wasn’t this already in a mailbag?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 months ago
Reply to  matthayden4

I think I would go with Eddie Mathews or Wade Boggs, with Gary Carter as an honorable mention.

dan norman learMember since 2024
4 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Matthews absolutely. And Eddie Murray.

matthayden4Member since 2024
4 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Great picks!

dl80Member since 2026
4 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Jose Ramirez should have won once over Jose Abreu, but alas, here we are.

MarkZMember since 2016
4 months ago
Reply to  dl80

Jose Ramirez is also in that group of very great (future) HOF types rather than incredible. 8 WAR seems to be a good arbitrary cutoff for an incredible season and unlikely he’s going to have one.

marchandman34Member since 2020
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkZ

Too bad 2020 was cut short.

matthayden4Member since 2024
4 months ago

Not the point of the article, I know, but if Soto stays healthy this year he’ll cruise past 1000 (!) career walks already. He could finish the 2026 just outside the top 100 all-time, insane for a counting stat at 27 years old.

SaltyMember since 2017
4 months ago

There’s plenty of writers/commenters on this site that are much more well-versed to speak on this then I can, but could the move to LF really help his defensive metrics to approach at least league average?

Like Davy mentioned in the article, the move may lead to more baserunners thrown out at 3rd, and teams may test him early in the season considering his recent low rankings in advanced metrics. And I think Citi’s dimensions could allow him to play a bit more shallow and maybe catch a few more soft liners that were dropping just in front of him last year, unless the team feels Lindor’s and Bichette’s range lessens the need to do that.

Davy is right in that the offense will have to carry the load for him to win it, but I think there’s potential for his defense to be less of a detriment.

Mitchell MooreMember since 2020
4 months ago
Reply to  Salty

Juan Soto has played 1063 games in the outfield since 2018, and his -70.6 runs places him in the bottom ten of all outfielders on the Fangraphs leaderboards since he’s been in MLB. I don’t imagine there is any “potential for his defense” going forward.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 months ago
Reply to  Mitchell Moore

There is potential for him to not be the worst outfielder in MLB. It’s not like he’s Nick Castellanos who has had double-digit negative FRV scores in the outfield (get ready) five times in his career, and who had two more times at -9 and -8 as well.

He’s more like, say, Eddie Rosario.

tung_twista
4 months ago
Reply to  Mitchell Moore

A year ago, if you were asked which scenario was more plausible between

A. Soto improves his defense to league average level. (According to Statcast FRV, Soto has done so in 3 of 6 non-COVID seasons)

B. Soto becomes the NL stolen base leader with 38 SB and 4 CS. (His career high was 12 SB)

most people would have thought this was a no-brainer.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 months ago
Reply to  Salty

One of the weird things about Soto’s defense is occasionally he’s average out there, like in 2019, 2021, and 2024.

And then there are reals where he is really bad out there, in 2022 and 2025.

I don’t have a good sense of what happened those two years, but it is worth noting that the only two years where he completely melted down on defense are when he played right field.

I’d say there’s a decent chance it’s coincidence because he was fine in RF in 2021 and 2024. But there’s also a chance that for whatever reason he struggles immensely in RF occasionally.

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
4 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

One thing I will point out here: in 2024, Juan Soto played quite a bit of RF in Yankee Stadium. The good thing about playing RF in Yankee Stadium is that mitigates what seems to be a distinct weakness for him: going back.

frankenspock
4 months ago
Reply to  Salty

I think you’re underestimating just how bad Soto has been as a fielder over the last 4-5 years.

SaltyMember since 2017
4 months ago
Reply to  frankenspock

That is probably the case.

Philip ChristyMember since 2026
4 months ago

He finished third in the voting in each of the last two seasons, and he also has two second-place finishes under his belt

I believe the second part is incorrect: 2021 was the only time he finished 2nd in the MVP voting.

grandbranyanMember since 2017
4 months ago

Soto (2.52 MVP Shares | t-67th) is definitely chasing Jose Ramirez (3.61 MVP Shares | 26th) here for active players.

J-Ram’s total is the highest ever for a non-MVP and ranks above 15 different Two Time MVPs.

joelbarlow
4 months ago

Ted Williams was significantly better. His 1940s numbers are insane. I’m not sure why this tag always get applied but its not accurate. Williams hit .353/.488/.642 from 1939-1949 (with three peak years missing due to WW2).

grandbranyanMember since 2017
4 months ago
Reply to  joelbarlow

It’s mostly the walking…

Soto career: 215 BB+ | 78 K+
Williams career: 203 BB+ | 80 K+

Ted murders him elsewhere (128 AVG+ | 228 ISO+ compared to 113 AVG+ | 152 ISO+) which is why he has almost 30 points of wRC+ on Juan at 187 versus 158 for their careers.

Best across the board stylistic comparison for Soto would probably be Big Hurt…

Juan
215 BB+ | 78 K+ | 113 AVG+ | 152 ISO+ | 158 wRC+
Frank
185 BB+ | 88 K+ | 112 AVG+ | 165 ISO+ | 154 wRC+

dl80Member since 2026
4 months ago
Reply to  grandbranyan

Foxx and Soto are quite close overall, with Foxx having a lead in ISO+ and Soto a nearly equal lead in BB+

joe_schlabotnik
4 months ago
Reply to  joelbarlow

its always someone…. someone always has to come in here and stay this stupid shit every time ted williams gets mentioned… i swear to god…
soto might hit 400/700/800 against the plumbers williams was facing

joe_schlabotnik
4 months ago

i’d say its like as if soto was playing against low a pitchers, but honestly its way more than that. its like not even like playing against juco pitchers. i don’t even think it’s like hitting against top high school pitchers. what soto would do to ww2 era pitching is so unfathomable to consider because he would simply get bored. i can never wrap my head around how hard it is for people to understand this.

beanbongMember
4 months ago

Ernie Clement or Jon Berti would probably be perennial MVP candidates in the era Williams played, but that fact alone takes absolutely nothing away from Williams’ career.

joe_schlabotnik
4 months ago
Reply to  beanbong

of course! he was incredible, unbelievable! but its just an insane thing to pretend like a guy hitting against 83 mph fastballs is just inherently so superior to soto. baseball history is fun, im glad our sport has such a rich legacy. but its still just absolute silly to pearl clutch about a guy that pretty much everyone who reads this website never saw play

frankenspock
4 months ago

If only someone had a statistical model that adjusted for league.

joe_schlabotnik
4 months ago
Reply to  frankenspock

yes, relative to his peers, williams was a monster. thats the point of adjusting for league. thats what it shows. as ive pointed out in these discussions in the past, williams wasn’t playing with anyone even close to his level, which seems like a weird historical anomaly. maybe the would be greats died in the war. idk. but still just silly to be such a purist about the past. baseball nostalgia porn

joe_schlabotnik
4 months ago
Reply to  joelbarlow

final thought on this: there are already people talking about how much different the environments that MJ and Lebron played in are. That MJ would not have been on greatest ever level if he played today. And people consider this into the making the (correct) assessment that Lebron has had a more impressive career than MJ, despite winning less titles. they’re like, one generation apart.
Ted williams is so far removed, playing in such a different universe of baseball that if the audiences of that era were watching the game today theyd be confused, and probably unhappy with what they saw. soto and williams are absolutely good comparisons because their game is very similar. they walk like crazy, and have crazy pop.

TKDCMember since 2016
4 months ago

If you rank Trout and Soto’s first seven “full” seasons (this includes Soto’s 494 and Trouts 507 PA seasons but excludes Soto’s 196 PA season), which occurred through age 26, by wRC+, they would rank like this:

1. Trout
2. Soto
3. Trout
4. Trout
5. Trout
6. Trout
7. Trout
8. Trout
9. Soto
10. Soto
11. Soto
12. Soto
13. Soto
14. Soto

Even if you say this cherry picks a little because Soto was otherworldly in his 47-game 2020 season, it’s still hard for me to agree with the “generational” label for Soto as an offensive player. Judge, Trout, Pujols, and Bonds. Soto is like an earlier-starting Joey Votto. Still an easy hall of famer. The Ted Williams comp makes no sense.

beanbongMember
4 months ago
Reply to  TKDC

The Ted Williams comp was always insane. They’re both corner OFs who take a lot of walks and have tons of pop, but Williams is a consensus top-5 position player in baseball history. Soto isn’t even the best hitter of his generation

jb1205Member since 2022
4 months ago
Reply to  beanbong

If you look at FG’s leaderboard for qualified hitters, there are only 4 guys with a higher wRC+ than Soto since Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle retired: Judge, Bonds, Trout, and Yordan Alvarez (who is older than Soto but also has nearly 2000 fewer PA). So, maybe Soto isn’t the best hitter of his generation- but one could argue he’s one of the top 4 or 5 hitters in a period that spans Baby Boomers, Gen X, Gen Y, and Millennials.

beanbongMember
4 months ago
Reply to  jb1205

I don’t think you can make that argument, at least not yet. Soto’s wRC+ looks so sparkling right now because he hasn’t aged into his decline phase yet, and he just doesn’t have the volume to enter into that conversation yet. Frank Thomas had a career 180 wRC+ at 26, and Pujols had a 168 wRC+ at 26. Soto’s still got a lot left to prove before you can call him a top-5 hitter for what will be a 70 year period imo

jb1205Member since 2022
4 months ago
Reply to  beanbong

Counterpoint to the idea that his wRC+ looks so sparkling because he hasn’t entered his decline phase: he may not have actually hit his prime yet. Judge has had 4 of his best 5 seasons in his age 30 season or later and Soto is only going into his age 27 season.

dl80Member since 2026
4 months ago
Reply to  beanbong

Soto is barely even top 5 in his generation: Judge, Trout, Ohtani, and maybe even Alvarez ahead of him offensively, to say nothing of defense.

That’s nothing to take away from him, as Soto is an amazing hitter. But we’re also being spoiled with several top 20 hitters of all time.

Last edited 4 months ago by dl80
sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 months ago
Reply to  TKDC

I have always thought of Soto as being like Votto, going back to his prospect days.

I am a little surprised that he seems likely to have a better career value than Votto though, for the reason you mentioned. Through age 25 Votto put up 8.2 fWAR. Soto had put up something like 37.

TKDCMember since 2016
4 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Soto is through age 26 now, not 25. But yeah, there’s kind of two stories to Soto and I think the first conflates the second. Since he started at 19, and started as a great hitter immediately, and has been very healthy, he high on a lot of “through age 26” counting lists.

His career rate stats look really good, too, but there’s always a bias in looking at career rate stats all time because 95% of players all time have already had their decline phases which almost invariably pull those downward. If you look at his rate stats through age 26, you can say it’s unfair to judge him the same as guys that didn’t play full time beginning at 19, but the incredible peaks are not too prevalent. His 2020 was very short, which leaves a single year, 2024, when he really put up “generational” offensive numbers.

He could grow as a hitter. It’s not that likely. He could grow in other aspects of his game. He clearly grew as a baserunner last year. And of course he could just sort of get the breaks that sometimes come with an MVP season. It would be a tough thing to bet on happening, though.

Last edited 4 months ago by TKDC
sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 months ago
Reply to  TKDC

The issue with Soto is the same as with a lot of other young guys who were stars right away: People expected him to get better, because that’s what young players do. But Juan Soto was a hitting prodigy, and prodigies always peak early in every field. Someone like Acuna had a lot of stuff to learn and Soto had only a small amount.

TKDCMember since 2016
4 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I’m not sure how true this is on either end. First, Soto did up his offensive level after his first two years, where he ran ~145 wRC+. Second, I have a hard time viewing Soto as more of a prodigy than Acuña. You can’t just put injuries aside, but if you could, Acuña is probably better. In seasons not fairly clearly affected by injury, he’s every bit the hitter Soto is and while he’s not good at defense, he’s certainly not worse than Soto, and he adds more value base-running. Again, the injuries have dampened any real comparison. Soto has been the better player. There’s no “what could have been?” with him, at all.

asb123Member since 2024
4 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The big difference there: Votto was struggling in A-ball at age 19, while Soto was hitting .292/.406/.517 in the big leagues.

Otherwise I think Peak Votto is a fair comparison for Soto. Soto has more home run power: Votto never hit 40 homers and only got to 30 3 times, and Soto has already bested both of those marks.

joe_schlabotnik
4 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

youve said this before and i feel like it quite undersells soto. i don’t think i’d flinch for a second if i could pick between having age 27 soto or 27 votto. im going soto every time

frankenspock
4 months ago
Reply to  TKDC

Trout’s first seven seasons had people calling him the greatest hitter of all time, behind possibly only Ruth. This isn’t really a meaningful comparison.

TKDCMember since 2016
4 months ago
Reply to  frankenspock

I don’t remember that being a common claim. There’s not a lot to back it up. He was certainly closer at age 26 than Soto, but so were Albert Pujols and Frank Thomas.

It’s a meaningful comparison when otherwise clear-headed people insist on comparing him to Ted Williams and call him a “generational” hitter. He’s both an amazing player but also his talent, at least from a peak perspective, is frequently overstated.

dangledangleMember since 2024
4 months ago

The MVP is not just a hitters award pitchers have won it and there have been seasons when they should have won it but didn’t. Pedro Martinez was outright robbed. It’s just hard to put up an MVP caliber season as a pitcher and likely even more so now than in the past with pitchers throwing fewer innings. A season needs to be utterly dominant or that the hitters underwhelm. Kershaw and Verlander are the last pitcher to climb the MVP mountain. It s certainly rare but it’s not impossible.

Nathan AndersonMember since 2021
4 months ago

When you said, “a stolen base crown,” I had to go check the numbers. Even though it was just last season, I’d already forgotten.

dangledangleMember since 2024
4 months ago

He might get there his problem has been that there are other giants. Not to factor in that even just good players can get hot and put up an MVP caliber season. Those that win the award more than once are elite.

Also voting has changed in the past if a player had won multiple MVPs the voters would look towards a fresh face. That’s not the case anymore

MichaelMember since 2020
4 months ago

Re: the comments here, I find the way people talk about juan soto very peculiar! I just think he’s awesome. He had his rookie year while I was still living in the DC area—he always had that infectious smile and enthusiasm for baseball, his absurd initial “soto shuffle,” and then was fucking amazing in the 2019 WS (should’ve gotten the MVP imo)…. he picked up english in an insanely short timeframe while crushing the minors. Traded twice afterwards and on weird/bad vibes teams between the latter day nats and the padres. Then, forming the best offensive pair since ruth and gehrig on the yankees. Parlayed into the biggest american sports contract ever. All this, and people seem to want to reduce the discussion of his career to whether we should allow ourselves to nitpick his greatness. Idk

jb1205Member since 2022
4 months ago
Reply to  Michael

I think there are a lot of haters– I probably used to be one, as a Mets fan, though I always respected and feared him as a hitter on the opposing team. The author of the article really set people up to tee off with the Ted Williams comp– it’s easy to say Soto is not as good as the greatest hitter of the past 75 years! And the fact that Trout and Judge are still active makes it even easier to discount Soto’s value.

It’s going to be interesting to see how Soto does if he is able to settle in as a Met for a while- like you said, he’s bounced around and been on 4 different teams in the past 4 seasons. I’m surprised that folks don’t seem to think he has any room left for improvement- Judge has had his best seasons starting at an age that Soto won’t even hit for a couple more years.

Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter whether he’s as good as Williams or Trout or Judge. He’s already one of the great hitters of our lifetimes in his own right. Given his youth and his health, he has a chance to hit some special milestones. I’m just crossing my fingers that I get to keep watching him for my team for another decade or so.