An Interesting and Bad Suggestion for Billy Hamilton
“This is the stupidest thing I’ve heard in my life.”
– Billy Hamilton on the following proposal
GOODYEAR, Ariz. — There has always been some debate about where to bat Billy Hamilton in the lineup.
He has the world-class speed that managers traditionally prize out of a leadoff hitter. Hamilton, for example, was the fastest man in the game by some measures in 2016 and has trailed only Byron Buxton (30.2 feet/second) in Statcast’s “sprint speed” each of the last two seasons.
The problem, of course, is the rate at which he gets (or doesn’t get) on base. Hamilton recorded a .299 OBP last season, 11th worst amongst qualified hitters. His career mark is almost precisely the same (.298). In the modern era of lineup construction, avoiding outs is regarded as a greater asset for leadoff hitters than speed alone.
While Hamilton has made the vast majority of his career plate appearances (1,651) at the top of the Cincinnati lineup, his inability to get on base regularly has prevented him from maximizing the value of his legs. And though he is penciled in as the club’s leadoff hitter again, there remains some debate about where he should hit.
But what if there was a way to better maximize Hamilton’s speed?
Not all of this author’s ideas would be categorized as “good” — an observation that is particularly true of the ideas to follow. The hope is that at least some of them have merit. In any case, one shouldn’t hesitate to propose an idea, to ask a question, out of the fear of looking foolish.
With that in mind, I made my way last Monday morning through the Reds’ clubhouse, looking for Billy Hamilton. The Reds outfielder was seated at his locker in the modern, high-ceiling space that serves as the team’s spring home in Goodyear, Arizona.
Morning spring clubhouses are sleepy. Doors often open to reporters before 8 a.m. While the regular season is frequently a second-shift schedule, the spring is different. Coffee-fueled commutes begin before sunrise. When one arrives at the park, the players are often subdued.
It was this quiet environment that perhaps allowed an interesting — at least to this author — and possibly bad idea to be heard and a group debate to develop.
When I introduced myself and began my line of questioning, Hamilton mistakenly thought I was going to be another reporter prying into his struggles and lineup position.
“It’s not my choice, man,” Hamilton said. “I’ve batted ninth before. As a player, you don’t really have a say-so… As a player, you don’t go to coach and say, ‘I want to bat here, I want to bat there.’ There’s not a lot of back-and-forth dialogue. Of course, I want to bat leadoff.’”
I followed by inquiring about whether he has ever been asked about playing a super-sub, utility role.
“Who wants to be a super sub?” Hamilton retorted. “You are asking me why I suck, basically.”
“No, no,” this author explained. I wasn’t suggesting limiting Hamilton to a lone pinch-running appearance late in the game or entering as a defensive replacement. Rather, I was curious if the Reds had ever discussed using him earlier in the game as a pinch-runner and then leaving him in the game, in essence to artificially increase his on-base percentage and give his speed more opportunities to make an impact. Of course, the starting pitcher and, say, Joey Votto would be immune to such a strategy — and perhaps the catcher, too — but any other player could be swapped out for Hamilton and his legs.
Would Hamilton be open to this?
By his expression, it seemed clear that he had never been approached with this idea, never considered it, and was possibly wondering who had issued me a press credential.
“You need help, Billy?!” shouted someone from across the room, apparently eavesdropping or at least reading his teammate’s body language.
By this point, Hamilton’s locker-room neighbor, Scooter Gennett, had become interested. Seated in a swivel chair, Gennett turned his attention up and away from his smartphone toward the conversation between this author and a bewildered Hamilton.
“What [Sawchik] is trying to say is — say, I get on in the first inning, you pinch run for my spot and then you stay in the game,” Gennett said. “You could still go 0-for-3 at that point but at least you’re on base once.”
Said Hamilton: “This is the stupidest thing I’ve heard in my life.”
I defended the idea: “This would be good for you, I think.”
I attempted to get specific. If the Reds were to replace the first non-Votto, non-pitcher to reach base, I explained, Hamilton would enter most games by the second inning. The strategy would eliminate roughly 20% of his plate appearances (and the times he reached base in those PAs, as well), but he would start on base an 140 additional times as a pinch-runner — that is, once per game extrapolated over the share of games in which he played last season. Using that quick math, the net gain for his 2017 campaign would have been 100 extra appearances as a baserunner over the course of the season. So, instead of being on base 192 times, as he was in 2017, Hamilton would have been on base 292 times.
Extrapolating Hamilton’s 2017 performance to account for the additional opportunities on base, his stolen-base total rises to 89 (from the actual 59), his runs scored to 128 (from 85), and his stolen-base runs above average from 5.9 to 9.0. This would be great for fantasy players and Hamilton himself.
Would it be so good for the Reds? That’s more difficult to decipher. The loss of roster flexibility would probably make it a non-starter for many managers in today’s game, and it could also remove a productive player from the lineup early in games. Moreover, more position-player depth and versatility would be required from the bench.
“You just lost a whole player for one time on base,” Hamilton notes.
True. And a significant obstacle.
Perhaps there could be another way, like saving Hamilton for a higher-leverage baserunning situation in the middle or later innings. There’s some logic to that, except that it would also limit his defensive chances in center field, as well. Hamilton was a three-win player in 2016 and 2014 due largely to defense.
By this time, a curious Devin Mesoraco had approached and joined in the conversation.
“You’d be an automatic run,” Mesoraco said.
There’s some truth to that idea, as well.
Last season, non-Hamilton baserunners scored 28% of the time for the Reds. Hamilton, however, scored 44% of the time he reached base. So with an additional 100 baserunning opportunities last season for Hamilton, he would have created around 16 additional runs via baserunning for the Reds. Only Votto and Eugenio Suarez project to be more valuable than Hamilton this season for the Reds among position players. So Hamilton wouldn’t be threatening to replace many players superior to his overall production.
“But I’d have to wait, wait, wait [on the bench],” Hamilton said. “I don’t like it.”
Mesoraco then added another thought: “It also depends on how long our starter pitches…”
By this time another Reds teammate, catcher Stuart Turner, approached, joined the group discussion, and offered a suggestion. Turner noted the strategy could be more viable for the Reds when they played as the visiting team. In that case, the Reds could bat anyone — even Mesoraco — in the first inning and replace him with Hamilton, essentially leveraging more offense into the game early and then immediately trading it in for speed and defense.
Hamilton still wasn’t impressed.
Said Gennett: “C’mon, Billy!”
Hamilton wouldn’t buy in. Maybe such a strategy would require a player with even more baserunning efficiency. Maybe such an extreme practice requires a 26th — or 27th — roster spot. Maybe Hamilton is right and it’s an awful idea. But it at least got a conversation started on a quiet morning in Goodyear.
A Cleveland native, FanGraphs writer Travis Sawchik is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, Big Data Baseball. He also contributes to The Athletic Cleveland, and has written for the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, among other outlets. Follow him on Twitter @Travis_Sawchik.
You have got to do something about the constant redirecting to ads. I’ve won more free Amazon coupons than anyone in history. It makes the mobile site borderline unusable. I have heard others complain about this, so I know it’s not just my phone. I love this site, and I gladly pay $20 for the amazing content. Please help a brother out on mobile!
Same also baseball reference has that problem.
have said it before, will say it again: Download “Brave” for iOS. Works basically the same as chrome, but blocks all that annoying garbage (and does a lot of privacy protection things too)
I’ve been outed at work with a loud audible “congratulations” way too many times! In a panic I hit back and it just makes the voice repeat. #firstworldproblems
So I finally figured out what the hell is going on with that, courtesy of another site.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/Note-to-readers-About-those-annoying-popups-on-your-phones_165731770
Here it is:
“We can’t sell every spot available for advertising on tampabay.com and tbo.com to our local advertisers. When we have extra spots available, we let ad serving companies know, and those companies put the spaces out for bid. The business with the highest bid wins, and its ad is displayed on the web page. This is all done nearly instantaneously using computers and strings of computer coding.”
“Sometimes bad actors slip through cracks in the networks that place the ads and add malicious code. That code takes over your phone and displays the popup saying something like, “You’ve been selected for a chance to get the $1000 Amazon Gift Card, Apple iPhone, etc.” ”
Apparently this is something that is affecting a lot of sites, but Fangraphs needs to get on the ball and get this taken care of.
We obviously don’t want these ads, but given that this is an issue which plagues much of the entire industry, it is extremely difficult for us to “get on the ball and get this taken care of.”
Unfortunately, with our mid sized audience we do not wield significant leverage in the 100 billion dollar ad industry.
All of the ads on FanGraphs are progmatic ads supplied by an ad exchange.
At some point Apple in particular will need to “get on the ball”. They refuse to put measures in to block redirects like this in Safari, where Google has taken a number of steps to prevent such behavior in Chrome.
Google is not entirely blameless either. About 50% of the advertising on FanGraphs comes from Googles own ad exchange which doesn’t do a good enough job of filtering out ads like these.
Given our reliance on advertising, it is not realistic for us to remove advertising entirely for non ad-free members either. As a result we are caught in a bit of a bind.
I believe this issue will be fixed eventually, but I’ve personally been surprised by how long this current bout of ads has lasted. It really cropped up around early December and has not stopped. It is somewhat unusual for these to last this long, so the bad advertisers must be a few steps ahead this time in subverting ad network safeguards.
The whole situation is annoying for everyone.
Thanks for the response.
I believe Google AdSense allows you to block certain ads and domains. I have never done much with it, but I have seen the functionality.
Adsense as an advertising product is policed much better than Google AdX, which is Google’s ad exchange product.
We don’t run any Adsense ads on FanGraphs currently, because the rates on Adsense we found pretty terrible. There is an option to block domains or specific ads on AdX, though the bad ads are hidden inside other ads and there’s really no way to tell which ads have the redirects in them, so unfortunately this doesn’t really work.
It sounds like the trade-off is that AdX pays you better for more obtrusive ads. Adsense does pay poorly. In any case, thanks for the reply.
This is not exactly true. Most of the obtrusive ads actually sit at a very low price level, but it’s impossible to figure out what that price level is. We have experimented some with floor pricing to try and get rid of these ads with some success. We just don’t have a great solution yet.
Since you’re talking about it, I was a paid member of Fangraphs for some months until I finally grew frustrated enough that my phone wouldn’t auto log in most of the time and I would still see ads on mobile. The content is worth it but I didn’t receive the benefits of the subscription most of the time. Maybe an app for paid folks?
If you were checking the stay logged in box, I’m not entirely sure how we fix that. That’s just the browser clearing your cookies at some point.
I’ve updated things so that box is now checked by default to try and mitigate this issue. Honestly there’s not a ton we can do if your browser logs you out, though I believe we have solved most of the issues where people were getting logged out even while checking that box.
Right now, if you log in and don’t manually uncheck the stay logged in box, you should stay logged in for a year.
Have you considered getting an ad-free membership? Because it sounds like it’s exactly what you need, and you’re currently willing to suffer through annoying ads to save the $50. If you pay that money, the annoyance goes away.
I have an ad-free membership. However, my phone doesn’t always auto log me into my account when I browse to the site using safari. So, I still have to deal with the issue.
ditto.
Same here. I’m ad-free, and still have the problem on my phone (using the Chrome browser normally, but also Safari).
I had these same issues for the longest time. For me at least, they’ve appeared to fix them. Log back in. Make sure you check the keep me logged in box. I haven’t had any mobile (iOS) issues in a month or maybe more. Again, this is just my experience.
FWIW pop-up ads rarely get through on Chrome
A switch to Chrom on the phone has helped me tremendously.
Considering that Chrome is the default browser on an Android phone, that seems rather unlikely.
I’m not sure how far Apple have got with their noise-suppressant promise on Safari (the best bit of which is an attempt to kill “auto-play” ads), but I’m willing to try the thing again.
Yes please. This site is unreadable on an iphone.
You can do what I did, which is pay them $50 a year (and why not, given that this the best baseball site that exists?) and the ads are gone.
I love this. Best story I’ve read in a while actually. Good work and keep prying!
Agreed. I enjoyed it as well. I am a bit more with Billy on this, but not really for his reasoning, it is an interesting discussion though. It works out really poorly for the player who got removed after getting on base in his first AB – that is what makes this a fun thought exercise as opposed to a potential reality. Rather than reward the player for doing his job, you tell him to go take a shower.
Agreed. It would take a strong manager and clubhouse to make this viable, guys have to be very “Team First” to make it happen, which is hard when there’s literally millions of dollars on the line.
This was an interesting idea to think through, but I’m with Billy on this one for a couple of reasons.
You’re either going to be replacing a regular starter or a fill-in starter (i.e. just there to get on base so Billy can replace them) every time you do this.
1) If replacing a regular starter, that means a player who would otherwise be on the bench needs the play the full game. The upgrade of Billy running for that one appearance needs to be greater than the overall downgrade of having a full game from the bench player rather than Billy + the regular he replaced. This seems unlikely.
2) If replacing a bench player, the upgrade in Billy running for that one appearance needs to outstrip the loss in value of having the bench player defend up until the replacement. This move only makes sense if that replacement player has a great OBP (otherwise no reason to start in front of Billy in the first place). If the guy’s OBP is good enough to try this move, his defence must be bad otherwise he’d be a starter, hence the benefit of Billy running for him likely be smaller than the defence downgrade.
Also, this would really piss off the player who got subbed out of the game just because he was the first non-Votto to get on base. Incentivizing players to not get on base seems like a bad idea.
Agreed on the last point, it would get really frustrating if you started out hot with a hit in your first AB and then got benched as a reward. It’d make your numbers look impressive for the year though:
assume leadoff hitter has .350 OBP (all singles for ease of calculation) and gets 700 PA/season
4.32 PA/gm (700/162)
in 56.7 games (162*.35) he gets on base and is immediately yanked
in those games, instead of his normal 4.32 PA of .355 OBP, he has 1 PA of 1.000 OBP
a little bit more math and you end up with a .422 OBP in 512 PA, which actually qualifies you for the batting title.
That doesn’t quite follow though. That 1 * 1.000 day isn’t replacing a .350 * 4.32 day, it’s replacing a 1 * 1.000 + 3.32 * 0.350 day.
Getting a hit in the first inning doesn’t make you any less likely to get more hits later that day, which is implicitly assumed by your calculation there.
That’s not how it works because the 65% of days he doesn’t get pulled, it’s because he didn’t get a hit (or walk) in his first AB. So he bats .350 in first at bats, .350 when he stays in the game, that works out to .350. There’s no way to improve hits per at bat by rearranging the at bats—if that were possible, Matt Stairs would be the batting champ!
Sigh. Ignore that math. That’s what I get for trying to be clever at 6am. I did what williams .482 suggested correctly, but I didn’t take into account that in the non-replacement days he’s not 4.32 * .350, he’s 0 + 3.32 * .350, as Nathan said.
What if instead of pulling the first guy to get on base, you just sign an Adam Lind/Matt Adams type, hit them leadoff in road games, and told them (at the time they signed) they were coming out of the game after their first at bat? So that guy starts in “center field” but you get one free shot at replacing a Hamilton AB with a guy who can actually hit and you still otherwise get all the defense and baserunning value you would otherwise get from Hamilton
Yeah that’s what I was thinking. The downside here is you lose the ability to PH for a pitcher with Lind/Adams in a key spot.
This plan is crying out for a RP who can swing the bat. Pitch one inning and/or take one PA. Then you’re either coming out for Hamilton or for an opposite handed true starting pitcher. Not only do you goose the chances of your team getting an early run, but you’re messing up the opponent’s LH/RH batting order
But this whole plan only works if the person hitting for Billy is actually better at getting on base, otherwise better off just starting with Billy. It’s unlikely a RP could have a better OBP than .300
I’ll agree that there probably aren’t many of them out there, but out of 200 some odd relievers in the game surely there are a few who could get on base at a better clip!
If anything it’s crying for a 6 man bullpen, and having 2 pinch hit options – one to start for Hamilton, and a second to PH later in the game for a pitcher.
La Russa did something similar to that with McGwire for six road games in 2000 when McGwire was injured and could neither play the field nor run the bases.
McGwire was in the starting lineup for these road games, due up in the first and written in the starting lineup at 2B, SS, or LF. McGwire would hit in the top of the first and then come out of the game for the real starter at that position, as a pinch runner or otherwise. The logic was that using McGwire to pinch hit later in the game would require using another player to pinch run for him if he reached base, so it was easier to use him in the top of the first inning and then put in the real starter at a position.
It’s not the world’s worst idea. If you grant the unlikelihood of any given starter actually going nine innings, you know that you’re going to make some pitching changes. You also know that your best PH is probably going to make an appearance. By doing it all in the 1st inning you lose some late inning flexibility but you gain something in letting that good PH hit at the top of the order somewhere, instead of the bottom.
I think you (and Travis and Billy) are right that there are some significant obstacles that make this unlikely.
However, I think there is a way around at least one of them. You use this as a “3/4 rest day” for one of the non-Votto, non-catchers. But that would require you to base the replaced player partly on needing rest instead of just “first to get on base.” So you say “first non-Votto, non-catcher to get on base who could use a rest day gets replaced with Hamilton.”
So say Gennett has played 10 games in a row and hits 5th (where he mostly did last year). Say the first 3 hitters all go down in a row in the first, then Duvall gets a double and Gennett walks. Assuming Duvall doesn’t need a rest day, you put Billy in for Gennnett, who does need a rest day. Now he can’t steal with Duvall in front of him, but he is still probably more likely to score than Gennett would be. Then you move Billy to outfield (unless maybe he can fake it at second, which would be super helpful) and put in a replacement at second base. That means Billy has to replace another starter in the outfield, which isn’t ideal.
What if you just said “first outfielder to get a hit who needs the rest gets replaced”?
So you start Duvall, Schebler (?), Winker with Billy on the bench. If Duvall gets on and could use some rest, Billy replaces him and switches positions with Schebler. If Duvall gets on first but was replaced first yesterday, you wait until Schebler or Winker gets on and replace one of them. So on and so forth.
Winker, especially, is likely to get on base a lot and would be a great candidate for this. I’m not sure Schebler gets on enough for this to be worth losing Billy’s defense (even for an inning or two).
This is maybe more useful when Votto needs rest days, given his OBP. (Assuming he takes any, which he didn’t last year.) Go ahead and hit him leadoff and playing CF in an away game, replace him with Hamilton no matter what happens. Votto probably wouldn’t object to getting a single PA on his off-days.
The most interesting part is how open the other players are to it. It’s a very non-baseball kind of suggestion, the kind of thing that historically no real baseball player would go for, and it sounds like everyone except Hamilton was willing to hear it out.
No one else was getting relegated to the bench!
Except for whoever got on base first
Nose goes.
except they were, and for a longer portion of the game. The batter just was not identified.
Being open to chewing on the suggestion is a long way from “let’s implement it”. I think everyone in the club house knows Billy’s super elite at base running, and not the strongest at the plate.
I can see Hamilton not wanting to play around with it since it’s basically “giving up” on him improving at the plate.
In the era of short benches, for an NL team, this sounds like a really bad idea. You lose whoever was playing CF, and whoever Billy pinch ran for in the 1st inning. Assuming you have an 8 man bullpen and a backup catcher, that leaves 1 other hitter on the bench.
Yeah, to me this only works if you have a good utility player and another passable center fielder. Then you have utility player in left field, but he can move to right field, third, second, maybe shortstop, too.
The other thing is that you wouldn’t really want to do this with 2 outs. You’re going to lose a lot of Hamilton’s value. So if you are employing this strategy, does it makes sense to bat Votto third? Since he’s the guy that you’re not replacing, batting him third makes more sense because the guy batting third is the most likely guy to get on base with 2 outs.
The other question would be whether you put Hamilton in if a guy gets an extra base hit. A lead-off triple? No way am I putting Hamilton in there, as almost anyone scores from third with zero outs.
lead off triple, you could put billy in the box and tell him to bunt. Pretty good chance the guy on third scores, and billy decreases the odds of an out on a bunt.
Agreed, and Turner’s idea to do this only on the road with the leadoff spot helps ameliorate those issues somewhat. But still you’re trading a bench bat for 40 or 50 points of OBP in one low-leverage at bat. Just on first instinct, that doesn’t seem like a good tradeoff.
Love it.
Travis, thank you for taking this idea off the digital pages of Fangraphs.com and into the clubhouse.
Reading the clubhouse’s reaction, rather than speculating on how players would feel, is what makes FG the best in the business.
Agreed. This seems like a pretty unique story.
Really what a perfect spring training article. An outside the box idea, with entertaining input from B-Ham and teammates. But my favorite nugget was this: “Last season, non-Hamilton baserunners scored 28% of the time for the Reds. Hamilton, however, scored 44% of the time he reached base. So with an additional 100 baserunning opportunities last season for Hamilton, he would have created around 16 additional runs via baserunning for the Reds.”
Now I want to see how everyone else in MLB measures up. How often does a slowpoke like Brian McCann score, somewhere around 15%?
This would be a lot easier to deal with if Hamilton was a Brock Holt-esque utility player.
As it is right now, I don’t see it. Getting an extra run is worth it in some cases, but it just puts too much pressure on the 25-man roster to make it worth it.
They’re the Reds. How much pressure are they really under?
It is a very interesting idea, I admit. But replacing him with the “first non-Votto player to reach base” is easier said than done. Because:
Suarez is too valuable to replace (and hitting near the middle of the order). Winker, though tough to project as a rookie, should have a solid OBP and deserves ABs. Removing the catcher is out of the question early in the game. So, you’re left with the CF (Schebler), Duvall, the 2B or the SS. Removing the 2B or SS would sacrifice some defense, though I suspect Hamilton would do okay but not “good” and you’re left with Schebler and Duvall.
Duvall derives value from his 2B/HR ability, and Schebler likewise. Also, the SS looks to be Peraza who has a high SB/baserunning ability so the upgrade would be far less substantial.
The 2B figures to be Gennett or perhaps top prospect Senzel later in the season. I’m okay with replacing Gennett, but definitely not Senzel.
So instead of “any non-Votto” You’re left with “Schebler, Gennett, or maybe Duvall” and even then consider if they have reached 2nd on their own, or there are 2 outs, the move becomes extremely marginal even giving the most generous projections for Hamilton’s BR ability.
I love the idea, it’s a hell of a thought experiment, but I’d rather hit Hamilton 7th 8th or 9th and let him run like crazy while still getting his value on defense. The Reds have a ton of young talent coming (Winker, Senzel both look to be high end bats) so hopefully the plague of batless speed in the leadoff spot (Patterson, Taveras, now Hamilton) are coming to an end in Cinci.
Yes, this idea doesn’t work very well if most of the rest of the team is in fact awesome.
This is the key factor, to me. Hamilton says “You are asking me why I suck, basically” — but what you’re really doing is asking him how much he thinks his average TEAMMATE sucks. He’s being diplomatic! (Probably by accident.)
I actually think Stuart Turner’s road game suggestion works, have a bench guy or w/e penciled in as the starter in CF lead off he game, whether he gets on base or not he get’s subbed out it’s a pre pinch hit. It could be an interesting to try a few times at least.
I haven’t done the math, but given the parameters this has to make the pinch hit PA more valuable. You could specifically target someone like Jon Jaso just to fill this role!
Very interesting idea, and it feels this would work in a small niche roster construction. But what you’ve essentially done is replace the “late inning defensive sub” with an “early lineup OBP sub”.
If there’s a guy that is mildly capable of playing corner OF and can work 8-12 pitches for a 1st inning plate appearance to get a walk /HBP / dying quail, you might be onto something.
This would require that your 25-man can withstand a shorter bench, have a player that can play adequate CF for 1-4 innings, and have a player that can get on base ~40% and be ok with immediately being replaced.
If nothing else, it’s an interesting idea to discuss
But if the player is putting up a .400OBP (extremely elite) or even just a “good” .370, it’s foolish to waste 3 more of his PAs
Possibly. I’m thinking a guy like Greg garcia of the Cardinals. He had a .365 OBP last year, but added little more than utility production. If he can up that to 380 and nothing else changes, he’s not exactly elite at anything but that one skill. So the team would need to decide if it’s worth ~120-140 extra runs over the season to jump out to a fast start & lose Garcia’s other tries to get on base.
it’s really not about any one guy being good. in fact, as you noted, this idea kind of requires everyone else to be bad. But even so, with six (excludes votto, catcher, and sp) .300 OBP hitters, Hamilton still has about an 89% chance of getting in the game before the lineup turns over.
That gives Hamilton a 50% shot at getting into the field after the first inning (1-(1-.3)^2) (assumes votto bats third) and at least an 83% shot to get into the game by the second. (1-(1-.3)^5). that means that he misses about .415 innings per game (assuming equal distribution between home and away).
You’re giving Billy Hamilton 100+ more opportunities on the base paths versus about 18 opportunities in the field. All else equal (which, admittedly, it’s not), I’ll take that every damn day.
That player is Robbie Grossman, and he happens to be the fourth outfielder on the team with the other really fast, good fielding, no-obp guy. Maybe we should be thinking about Buxton instead.
Travis… I loved this article and that you had the balls to approach him with this. I worked in the game for five years… these guys are human and Spring is the best time to do this. I suggest you talk to their R&D/Analytics group and manager about this.
Surely the analytics guys read Fangraphs.
To make this work you would not only need an outstanding baserunner with a low OBP but also a logjam of high OBP 1b/DH types who were not great baserunners. The Reds do not have this logjam and Joey is far too valuable in future at-bats to mess with. But what about the 2nd most valuable baserunner Byron Buxton. The Twins only have space in their lineup for 2 of (LM, JM, KV, RG) yet all four of these players get on base better than BB. So in the first inning of an away game, you send up LM. JM and RG whoever gets on base first is taken out of the game for BB if the first inning ends without any of them getting on base BB enters the game for whoever was not going to play that day anyway. Still not perfect because the Twins hope BB will be a good hitter but it might work.
All right, help me out here.
LM = Logan Morrison
JM = Joe Mauer
KV = Kennys Vargas?
RG = ?
Grossman I imagine. I think Dutch is right that the Twins would be better equipped to do this, but they also have ample reason to believe that Buxton may someday hit and become a true superstar, so they wouldn’t. I doubt anyone thinks Hamilton will ever hit, but I can’t see an NL team doing this. It’s easier to burn the spot if you don’t have to worry about a reliever hitting later on.
In essence, you’re pinch-hitting for Hamilton in the first inning instead of saving your best bench bat for a reliever when the leverage index is higher, so I’m not a fan.
I admire the author’s willingness to think outside the box, but I don’t think this proposal is workable for the reasons that others have stated – namely, burning a bench player in the first inning, pissing off the other players inolved, etc.
Hamilton isn’t much of a hitter, but he’s considerably better (by his standards) from the left side of the plate – a 75 wRC with a passable OBP, as opposed to a 60 wRC from the right side. I think it would be much easier to just move Hamilton down in the lineup, and save him for pinch running/defensive replacement on days when lefties are starting.
Lots of questions: What sort of value does a player gets from rest if they start out in the game? We know that guys perform better if they are not asked to play every inning of every game, but would this sporadic and unplanned rest help guys? Would there be something of an unconscious effort to avoid being replaced? If you aren’t replacing Votto, what do you do when the guy after Votto gets on base, but Votto is still standing on second base? Is it worth it then?
I think this is an incredible idea. Couple things I would add would be the Reds Bench needs to be stocked with High OBP guys. Also, maybe you start this off by doing it against 20%+ Strikeout SP’s to eliminate the opportunity to Strikeout Hamilton.
I’ll say this: you’ve got balls man. I can’t imagine going into a clubhouse and proposing this idea to a player. It’s got to be a pretty big hit to the ego of the player to have an idea proposed to them that is essentially “what if they let someone else get on base for you and then you just run, you know, because you suck so bad at getting on base?”
I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad idea for Hamilton, but a discussion of it involves starting with the premise that he’s a terrible hitter who’s hurting his team with his bat, and that’s a tough place to start a conversation.
But it doesn’t have to start with that premise. No matter who you are, there’s a better chance that at least one of about four major league hitters is going to reach base in about four plate appearances than you are in one plate appearance.
I like this idea and kudos to Travis on being willing to suggest it, but as much as I want to make this work, I don’t think it does. Even if you lead off every road game with a .400 OBP defensive liability, you’re still only gaining eight additional times on-base during the course of an entire season, which probably isn’t worth the lost roster spot. This would be brilliant during the playoffs, though.
It’s a cool idea, but it’s probably not practical. As others have noted, you can’t replace just any non-Votto batter who gets on base. And if you do have somebody with a high enough OBP to make this work but who’s not too good to remove from the game in the first inning, it’s probably because he’s a huge defensive liability and any benefit from having him hit is lost the minute he puts on a glove. So basically, you’re down to batting a 1B-only OBP specialist leadoff in road games, then pulling him whether he gets on or not. Which has value – if you can effectively boost Hamilton’s BB% to ~15-20% for his first AB, that’s not nothing. Probably not enough to justify losing the bench spot, but maybe 2-3 extra runs across 81 road games?
But, and I’m surprised nobody has brought this up yet, I see a scenario where there’s a little bit less downside. If you have a two-way SP who can get to first base at a decent clip, you don’t lose much by running him out there on his non-pitching days. All you need is Shohei Ohtani and Billy Hamilton on the same team. So there you go – just get two of the most unique skillsets in baseball on the same roster, and you’re all set.
But even that doesn’t consider the opportunity cost of using a good bench bat in the first inning. You’re losing the option of pinch-hitting that guy in a high-leverage spot later, so you’re giving a lot of your gains back.
The Angels are uniquely suited for this. Let’s dream a little!
Billy Hamilton is a free agent after 2019. 2020 will be his age 29 season. Let’s assume he ages well, but even if he doesn’t there should still be plenty of spring in his step. He won’t be expensive.
Mike Trout (long may he reign) will be entering his age 28 season. That could be a good time for a shift out of center and into the corners. His defense has been fine, but naturally trending downwards. Perhaps a move to the corner would allow him to add even a little more bulk, and maybe even allow for _more_ power (sure, not likely, but maybe. We are dreaming!)
Shohei Ohtani is the perfect partner for this. Let’s use Steamer’s optimistic .340 OBP and assume that time in the big leagues allows him to improve as a hitter. Maybe he’s a .350-.370 OBP! Amazing! Unlike other players with that level of on-base skill, you really really really don’t want him running the bases (see Wright, Steven), meaning you’re getting extra marginal value by limiting him to 1 at bat in a game.
“But it’s not a high leverage at bat!” you say. True! The beautiful thing about the youth and flexibility of these 3 guys is that you have options. Leave ohtani in RF for an inning or two while trout plays center.
You don’t want him to hit the day after (or before?) he pitches? Good news!
Albert Pujols still has something left. He’s not Albert Pujols anymore, but the angels just can’t DFA him. The best they can hope for at this point is he decides to call it quits early (probably not so likely). If not, well, he’s taking the roster spot anyways. Might as well use him in this unique 4-way platoon rotation. He gets all the 1st inning ABs when ohtani is starting, and some the days before/after. Maybe the reduced playing time helps keep him in better shape. Maybe the emphasis on OBP instead of power allows him to adjust his swing just enough to boost his value even more. Dreams!
This was my exact proposal for the Reds to target Ohtani. Bat Ohtani leadoff, both home and away. If the spot is due up in the top of the second, let him hit again. After that, you replace him with Hamilton. In that case, no roster crunch because Ohtani’s primary purpose is pitcher, but you then replace Hamilton’s ~.600 OPS with Ohtani while minimally impacting Hamilton’s defensive chances.
Hamilton sucks with the bat but his value is not really in stolen bases but in defense. Unless he steals 100% a stole base is not all that valuable (about 0.2 runs per SB but any CS is like minus 0.6).
Him a a super sub only makes sense if he also is a defensive replacement preferably if there is an atrocious corner OF (say schwarber or hoskins next year with the phillies) and a CF that slides over. That way you let him pinch run for the terrible corner of (who also sucks on the bases most likely) in the 6th or 7th and then use him as a defensive sub so he only gets one more PA at the plate.
Yeah, I like thinking outside the box as well but kind of have to question whether this would even be beneficial for all the same reasons given already.
Like a lot of thought experiments, this would last until the 1st time that they put Hamilton in and he doesn’t score and then the Reds run out of bench players in late innings. The manager would get roasted and managers do not make decision based on win/loss assessments. I decided years ago that rule #1 of managing is that managers/coaches manage to keep their jobs, not to win. Sure, decisions that lead to winning are a huge part of keeping their jobs, but making controversial decisions can cost a coach his job even if they are right. (In the world of investment management this is known as “Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM.”). Look at all the teeth gnashing over batting the pitcher 8th and yet we know that A) that is the right call and B) even at that it makes very, very little difference. It’s also why 3rd base coaches are much too conservative in sending the runner from 3rd and in football why coaches don’t go for it on 4th down nearly often enough.
Actually, the unconventional idea I’ve always thought about is starting 2 pitchers, both a lefty and righty, and switch them out between P and 1B. Couldn’t do it in the AL without losing the DH so it wouldn’t apply in the AL but in the NL you could rotate them based on the batter and, depending on how well your own team hits in the 1st and 2nd innings, you would have the platoon advantage on every hitter for probably the 1st 2 innings on the road and possibly 3 at home. Not only that, since the pitchers would be limiting their pitch counts, once you pull the 2nd pitcher, the 1st guy should be able to work deeper into games. It also allows you to use LOOGYs for more than 1 guy. This is an unconventional idea that I could see actually getting implemented by a progressive manager like Maddon.
Another thing I’ve always wondered about: managers often stagger their lineup LRLRLR, etc. The idea being to keep the other team from bringing in a (primarily) lefty to face consecutive batters. But isn’t that team also sacrificing runs early in the game by not stacking hitters with the platoon advantage over the starter? Looking at it as “advantage (A)” and “disadvantage (D)”, wouldn’t you rather have DAAAD than DADAD since it would increase your chances of stacking together hits? Put another way, wouldn’t it increase your hit “luck” with better hit sequencing? Sure, late in the game the other team may bring in a reliever and you are going to have to pinch hit for one or more guys in the stack but it seems to me you are trading a prime opportunity to score runs early in the game when you know the handedness of the pitcher and you know that more than likely you are going to get 2 and probably 3 runs through the order against the starter for an unknown variable late in games.
This is essentially the exact same strategy that I’ve employed in MLB the Show to great success with speed demons like Lou Brock (and if it works in the Show, it has to work in real life, right?).
You’re essentially combining a high OBP-guy with a speed guy for the cost of one spot on the 25-man roster. The way that I see it, if you were going to use the OBP-guy off the bench in the late innings of most games anyway, you may as well give him a plate appearance earlier in the game and try to go up a run. As Stuart Turner noted, the strategy is obviously more viable in away games.
haha I love the beehive of players intrigued by the idea. It is very interesting and likely would leverage more value. With double-shifts, more flexible relief pitchers and position players, potential 6 man-rotations, etc…why not?
So long as you have players who can slide to infield spots so Billy can play CF.
I think the challenge is more one of pride for Billy.
Turner’s is the only twist on the idea that would make sense to me. Only do it in the first inning of road games, only do it on rest days for regulars. You can get one quality-ish AB in and then sub in Billy, after that the regular starter (usually Mesoraco) gets his rest in. Seems good. Problem is the Reds barely have any regulars who actually get on base that much more often than Billy for it to really add up. Also I have no idea how planned rest days work for players in practice. Would it still be a real rest day for Mesoraco if he has to take BP and do his stretches for a single leadoff AB (or do players warm up on their off days anyway)?
Unless the Reds carry three catchers, I very much doubt in practice that they’d pursue this idea with Mesoraco. Teams are so reluctant to risk having to rely on the emergency catcher after an in-game injury that I can’t see any team deciding to burn its only backup catcher in the first inning of a game.
I don’t know if the math wholly justifies that reluctance, but it very well might when looking at the benefit 1 PA from Mesoraco rather than Hamilton versus the downside risk of having to rely on an emergency catcher for many innings of a game. The latter of course has only a small likelihood of happening in any game, but I’m thinking (perhaps overly harshly) that an emergency catcher might be something like a -10 WAR per season player between really bad framing, no pitch-calling knowledge, more wild pitches and passed balls, and difficulty controlling baserunners.
Fun article! Best part was getting the other players involved in the debate.
as a life-long Reds fan who oscillates between hope and frustration regarding Hamilton, this idea is fascinating. my gut is that it would only work under two circumstances:
-roster expansion….given the current roster size, without expansion it seems logical to assume that any player who gets on base enough to justify this strategy would actually be worth playing everyday over Hamilton anyway.
-the presence of a great hitting pitcher on the roster….on a “rest day”, it would be reasonable for someone like Hunter Greene, Shohei Otani, Brandon McKay, etc, to hit in the first inning and then be subbed out for Hamilton since they wouldn’t be playing that day anyhow. Even a good reliever would be sufficient as well, but you could theoretically get a few days worth of at-bats out of a starter.
“You just lost a whole player for one time on base.”
I think the non-analyst jock nailed it right off the bat.
If the non-analyst jock nailed it right off the bat more often, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
The perfect player for this existed (man with dwafism and thus, a tiny strike zone)… back in 1951. Start him in CF leading off for all away games, then sub in Billy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gaedel
What if you sign “Eddie Gaedel” to bat leadoff for the Reds? He walks every single time up, and you replace him immediately with Hamilton, who goes around to score.
Sure, you are then playing with a 24-man roster. But I think starting 162 consecutive games with Hamilton on first base would be worth it…
Interesting. Makes me wonder if the “Eddie gaedel” rule is still in place. Seems to me would have some legal issues holding up….maybe a new discussion topic for the new FG legal analyst!
I think it’s generally a bad idea. So many things can go wrong from trying to do this. For starters, Hamilton’s main positive contribution to the team is his defense. Despite his terrible offensive capability, he still contributed 1.2 WAR last year, and 3.1 WAR in 2016. Also, what if the first guy gets on base with 2 outs? Even the speedy Hamilton will likely not score, so it isn’t worth permanently removing another player. I see too many situations where the team may have to wait too long to swap him in, and during that time, they lose his glove in the OF.
You need ‘Take one for the team’ Rudi Stein on the roster. He leans into a pitch to lead off every game – wearing full on Barry Bonds armor – then Billy swipes his way to run number 1 and goes out to play CF.
Or Jacoby Ellsbury and his elite catcher’s interference skill.
Someone tell the Rangers to trade Sin-Soo Choo to the Reds so we can make this happen.
It’s an interesting idea, and I don’t think it’s a bad suggestion at all.
That said, echoing the point made by Turner and some of the other commenters, I think it could use refinement to be something worth trying in practice. And, even then, penciling out the full math might show it to be a very marginal upgrade over a season, if any.
Specifically:
In practice it’s difficult to substitute Hamilton for anyone except another OF, unless the team has a Zobrist-like utility player who can play corner OF and middle infield positions. With the Reds’ roster, I think that putting in Hamilton for the starting SS or 2B would mean burning two players early in the game because a backup IF would also have to come into the game, and that’s not practical to do in the NL without the DH.
Trying it only in road games makes sense, as Turner suggests, to maximize the time that Hamilton plays defense.
So I think the idea here for the Reds is to try something like starting Winker, Schebler and Duvall in road games, all batting somewhere within the top 6 of the batting order, and then substitute for whichever of them (if any) reaches base within the first two innings.
Even with all that, there are downsides that offset at least some of the upside. There’s the issue of having worse pinch hitting options available later in the game. There’s also that both Winker and Schebler hit LH and Duvall hits RH, so this idea limits the ability to keep a platoon advantage against the starting pitcher.
Was going to post my OOTP story doing something similar, but realized it’s not that interesting.
I really like this idea, but can’t see an established player going for it unfortunately
Stories about other people’s fantasy teams or OOTP teams are only rarely interesting.
Awesome article. Can’t seem to be able to upvote it. Instead I’ll just make a post and upvote that post.
I think it’s fantastic that the other Reds players got in on this conversation with such open-minded enthusiasm. This definitely makes me like Scooter and Mesoraco more.
It seems to me that this idea gives the Reds a good reason to trade for Matt Kemp.
Another problem with the idea is that second base had better be open. There are a variety of situations where stealing a base isn’t worth much. I think you would end up with fewer practical opportunities for this than you might think. Ironically, I was used in this role for part of a HS season – it sucked waiting around. I did lead the league in steals as a part time player. My team also sucked, so I can’t say it provided much value. As far as the humans are concerned, everyone is unhappy in the end – the starting caliber player who sits and the starter who just got pulled for getting on base. It is a recipe for dysfunctional clubhouse. Possibly a good strategy for an OOTP sim though.
So I went looking for a player who would be a good sacrificial lamb for this type of scheme. Would ideally be someone who gets on base but doesn’t do much else. Not someone you would need off the bench for late-inning defense, and not someone who is going to hit a leadoff HR and spoil the whole thing (not that that would be bad).
Here are players with 100+ PAs last year who had a .340 or higher OBP and a .150 or less ISO.
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=100&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=57250&players=0&sort=14,d
Sorted by OBP, number 6 on the list happens to be a no-power, defensively mediocre OF but current FA Jon Jay. Get on this, Reds!*
There’s probably some AAAA 1B/DH who would also fit this description and could be had for nothing.
Dan Vogelbach!
Aoki, and he makes A+ faces.
“Not all of this author’s ideas would be categorized as “good” — an observation that is particularly true of the ideas to follow.”
Geez, I had to double-check the byline to make sure this wasn’t written by Cistulli.
That author rarely refers to himself as “this author,” whereas this author apparently believes “I” is a forbidden word.
damn, this was the perfect job for Nick Johnson. Get up in the first, draw a walk, promptly get removed for Hamilton preventing more injury risk.
I like Travis’ articles, and this in particular, but since people are airing grievances here, I can’t help but say that I cringe every time I see him write “this author”.
The most egregious is this excerpt, where “this author” is immediately followed by “I”.
“No, no,” this author explained. I wasn’t suggesting limiting Hamilton
Am I alone in thinking I is far superior to some faux-3rd person alternative, let alone a combination of the two?
This commenter has repeatedly made the same point, to no apparent avail. This commenter believes it to be an incredibly dumb affectation.
Unless I have amnesia, this is literally the first time I’ve ever said this.
Edit: you seem to be referring to yourself? If so, our point is proven through my confusion.
This commenter apologizes for the joke, which he mistakenly believed was obvious.
Several have commented this might work with roster expansion. That being the case, this might make the most sense in September when rosters do expand.
My favourite article here on FG.
The idea is whacky, and out there, yet very cool.
But it’s the clubhouse engagement and the conversation that came from it, that makes this article a winner.
Nice work, Travis.
Travis this was a really fun read, really brought me into the moment. Fascinating to hear how players think about concepts like this.
This would be a good idea for when the rosters expand or during the playoffs (when teams use fewer starting pitchers. Even if the Reds don’t (ever) make the playoffs, it would be a worthwhile experiment for the end of the season.
If it worked, think of Hamilton’s trade value to a playoff-bound team — his on-base problem could be managed.
Great article. My guess is that more than one player, coach and manager invoked the “stupidest thing I’ve heard in my life” line about a whole bunch of things that are now commonplace which will be everyday occurrences soon enough. I’m sure more than one person said that about defensive shifts…
Do the Reds have another capable CF besides Hamilton? I feel like an already poor defense would take a major hit without him out there.
I think the Angels used to do the inverse for away games (as Turner noted) for a short time (~1990?). They started their best hitting bench player at leadoff. For the bottom of the 1st, they would replace the leadoff hitter with their awful hitting, fantastic defensive shortstop. They get all the defense with one fewer at bat. Does anyone else remember this?
If you have a strong hitting starting pitcher, like Micah Owings, this could work for away game off days. Or a strong bat, no field, great clubhouse guy at the end of his career.
This would work for a few games but not on a regular basis. Fun idea though.
Pirates did the defensive version of this in the WC game in 2015. They started Sean Rodriguez at 1B over Pedro Alvarez at home thinking that they could get as many as 3 innings of defense before the 7th spot would come up against Arrieta.
I friggin loved this article.
This reminded me of an FG article about starting a Left handed RP once through the lineup and then replacing him with your “real” Righty starter afterwards for the remainder of the game.
Sounds excellent on paper and something I’d do in Ootp but sadly something players would strongly fight against.
That was fun.
Players like Tommy La Stella or Daniel Nava came to mind as a good partner for this. A high OBP pinch hitting utility player who could just take his one or two ABs to start the game, rather than at the end. Ideally you follow Turner’s suggestion and do this for road games only, where the “pinch lead-off hitter” can just be penciled in for CF but doesn’t need to take a position at all in the bottom half, but if it someone you’d be comfortable playing in an OF spot for an inning or two you could do it at home too.
Ideally you have that player lead off the game with a 35-40% chance at reaching base, immediately replace them with Hamilton and then go from there. The question is what you do the 60-65% of the time that player doesn’t reach to open the game. Do you put Hamilton in anyway? Do you wait for the next “replaceable” player to reach base? Do you wait until the lead-off guy gets another PA?
I have long been a proponent of the idea of a strategic pinch runner and I think this strategy is just an extension of that, but I don’t see how it would work with Hamilton or the Reds. Hamilton is far too valuable to the Reds and the Reds have so little defensive versatility I don’t really see how it would play out successfully.
I disagree with a lot of comments suggesting you need a team that sucks, thus has many replaceable players in the starting lineup, to do this. I would argue that you need a very good team with a lot of defensive versatility to pull this off, like the Cubs. A team where a Billy Hamilton wouldn’t be an every day player but would be a strategic pinch runner/defensive replacement for any one of your multiple high OBP defensive liabilities like Zobrist or Schwarber. You wouldn’t feel compelled to get him in as fast as possible since you have great players already in those spots, just pick a good spot to deploy your speed demon and go from there.
That spot may be replacing Ben Zobrist who walked to lead off the game in the 1st inning, it may be Schwarber reaching in the 7th with a 1 run lead where you know you’ll replace him for defense next inning anyway or it may be La Stella reaching after hitting for the pitcher. A player like that would be infinitely valuable used in that manner on an already great team. Billy Hamilton though is far too valuable to his team to be deployed in that fashion.
Shouldn’t you just convince him to get on base once in a while? He’s the sort of one-dimensional player that as a scoresheeter, has become almost undraftable except as a LIDR.
Fun article, love that other players joined his interview haha
The Reds should hire Barry Bonds. Let him hit leadoff on the road. He walks. Hamilton pinch runs and then plays the field in the bottom of the first. Done.
Perhaps Zack Granite would be an interesting partner for this leadoff “platoon.” Granite posted a 1.33 BB/K and 97.4% Z-Contact% in 2017 (107 PAs). He’s also a natural CF and was worth 4 OAA, per Statcast. (Worth mentioning: Granite stole 56 bags in 2016 at AA.)
seems like a nonstarter idea from the start.
This is great. Cue “Major League 2”. Guy leads off, gets plunked, hobbles down to 1st, gets replaced by Hamilton. Heads into the dugout with everyone slapping him on the back and giving him high 5’s. “Good game, Dorn!”