Anthony Rizzo, Joe Maddon, and the Dangerous Play

Over the last decade, Major League Baseball has taken steps to make the game safer for players on the field, not only instituting a seven-day disabled list for concussions but also crafting a pair of somewhat nuanced rules in order to avoid unnecessary collisions both on the pivot at second base and also at home plate.

On Monday, Anthony Rizzo seemed possibly to violate those rules, barreling to the plate in order to prevent Pirates catcher Elias Diaz from throwing to first to complete a double play. Rizzo ultimately succeeded: his collision with Diaz caused an errant throw, allowing two runners to score and turning a likely Cubs victory into a sure thing as the team went up 5-0 in eighth inning.

Did Rizzo actually do anything wrong, though? To answer that question, we actually have to consider two separate rules. To begin, let’s go with MLB’s slide rule first. The rule addresses the allowable — or, as they call it, bona fide — slide, which requires that a runner:

  1. Begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before reaching the base;
  2. is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot;
  3. is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; and
  4. slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder.

Here is Rizzo’s slide.

https://gfycat.com/HatefulAgonizingAustralianfreshwatercrocodile

In terms of the rules as stated, Rizzo abides by the first two conditions; as for the third part, that doesn’t apply in this situation, as the play occurs at home. Regarding the fourth condition, one sees that Rizzo does slide within reach of the base; however, he clearly changes his pathway to initiate contact with Diaz. In this case, the league agreed, confirming that a violation occurred. The gif above shows Rizzo running in foul territory down the line for most of the play before jumping into fair territory right before he reaches home plate. The gif below shows Rizzo’s first step into fair territory.

https://gfycat.com/PointedGargantuanCub

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Here’s another view from behind the catcher that shows just how far into fair territory Rizzo ventured for the purpose of making contact with Diaz.

https://gfycat.com/FrighteningSophisticatedDuckbillcat

It’s difficult to get a sense of how this play compares to other similar ones, because the circumstances that facilitated it just don’t happen that often. A search of Baseball Savant for this year reveals just three successful bases-loaded double plays that started with a throw to the catcher and just eight force outs at home with the infield in. Also complicating matters is that the rule above is designed mostly to protect fielders at second base. In those situations, the thrower is facing the runner. Here, Diaz doesn’t have the benefit of having Rizzo in front of him. Whatever the case, it is hard to argue that Rizzo didn’t change direction to make contact with the fielder, which is a violation. It might not necessarily be the precise play the league imagined when crafting the slide rule, but Rizzo’s actions are still illegal under the rule as written.

Even absent a violation, it would be difficult to argue — and perhaps disingenuous to say — that the play wasn’t a dangerous one. I looked through the other 10 plays this season similar to Rizzo’s and there was just a single slide, and that one went right into the plate. While not directly applicable here because Rizzo was not trying to score, this play still violates the safety aspect of the Posey/Avila rule designed to avoid collisions. In fact, Rizzo violated the design of the Posey rule in the exact same manner as he did a year ago. Here was the collision with Austin Hedges.

https://gfycat.com/FocusedDisastrousBirdofparadise

Just like Sunday, Rizzo deviated from his course right near home in order to make contact with Hedges. That collision was more violent because Hedges was facing Rizzo with his knees on the ground, but Rizzo’s movement are the same. He didn’t go knee first into Diaz, but his failure to execute a proper slide is notable in both instances. The rule to avoid collisions notes what makes a proper slide.

A slide shall be deemed appropriate, in the case of a feet first slide, if the runner’s buttocks and legs should hit the ground before contact with the catcher.

Here’s what Rizzo looked like when he made contact.

Here is the view from another angle.

That’s a dangerous slide and one that would violate the Posey rule if it were applicable. It’s only not applicable because Rizzo was already out and so he instead violated a different rule. MLB, with the help of the players, has tried to make changes to avoid precisely the type of play Rizzo committed. Two plays is hardly a trend or pattern, but given Rizzo’s lack of remorse last season, it can’t be that surprising to see it happen again. Joe Torre indicated Rizzo had violated the rule, but let him off with a warning. After getting that warning last season, here’s what Rizzo said:

“I could have gone in with my shoulder like a linebacker and really took a shot,” Rizzo said. “I went in, kind of last second slide, not really sure where to go, and that’s (Torre’s) understanding of it, too.

Joe Maddon felt the same way.

I’m not going to just concede and just pay lip service to something I don’t believe in. I’m just not going to do it. So I’m really just telling you what I think. That’s what I saw. It was a good baseball play.

Maddon’s comments on the play in question this time seem to reinforce his previous statements on the matter (Full Video from Jesse Rogers at ESPN here).

“That’s how you should teach your kids to slide and break up a double play — the catcher’s gotta clear a path,” Maddon said. “You have to teach proper technique. He’s gotta get out farther, he’s gotta keep his foot on the plate clear because that’s absolutely what can happen. And you know why? Because it happened to me and the same thing happened — the ball went down the right field corner. My concern there was that they were going to attempt to review it in the same way you review it at second base, whereas there’s no base sticking up that you can hold on to.

Just like he was a year ago, Maddon was wrong, and Rizzo again defended his actions immediately after the game in an interview with Jesse Rogers (Full interview here).

“Just playing hard,” Rizzo said. “Never want to try to hurt someone. They’re playing as hard as they can over there, we’re playing as hard as we can over here. You gotta break up a double play. Fortunately, we broke it up, everyone comes out healthy, but I thought it was a good play.”

At this point, why would Rizzo think otherwise? He committed a more egregious offense a year ago, was told by the league what he did was against the rules, and came away not with the sense of having been warned but of having done nothing wrong. The league backed away from enforcing the slide rule almost immediately after implementing it; however, the effect wasn’t that noticeable, as most players simply opted to comply with the rule. Compounding Rizzo’s failure to change, his manager believes the rules that have been enacted to protect players on double plays and at the plate “have no place in our game,” so Maddon likely hasn’t taken Rizzo to task to follow the rules as written.

We now have two similar, dangerous plays committed by the same player in the span of a year. A year ago, the league found Rizzo violated the rules, but ultimately he faced no consequences. While the umpiring crew ruled no violation occurred on the field, the league has said a violation occurred. Rizzo moved at the end of the play to make contact with the catcher and made that contact with the catcher with an unsafe slide that could have been incredibly harmful. The league needs to take action against Rizzo in the form of at least a fine and should probably do the same with Maddon if it wants one of the game’s premier managers to fall in line with reasonable rules to help keep players safe and prevent unnecessary injuries.





Craig Edwards can be found on twitter @craigjedwards.

211 Comments
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BillClinton
8 years ago

Here comes Cubs Twitter, y’all.

Brians Sticky Sock
8 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

I’m part of a decently intelligent Cubs group on Facebook. We’ve discussed the play and the vote was split. There’s a decent amount of Cubs fans that will say he’s wrong. I think people are defending Rizzo’s character more than the play… but obviously my fanbase can get pretty protective. I can’t deny it.

Lou BrownMember since 2017
8 years ago

Why would anybody defend Rizzo’s character without knowing him personally?

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
8 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

Because Fandom is a strange beast, and an attack on our guys is an attack on ourselves.

gaius marius
8 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

Indeed, why would anyone attack it under the same condition?

Brians Sticky Sock
8 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

I’m not sure what you’ve heard of him, but he’s pretty famous locally for spending a lot of time and resources on kids with cancer, he’s known as one of the nicer guys around, etc. I suppose it could be fake, but he comes off as a likable guy, and the fans really like him. I haven’t defended his slide, I’m trying to explain why Cubs fans are defending the guy. He’s got a great reputation in Chicago.

sgp2204
8 years ago

He does have a great reputation in Chicago (rightfully so), but being a good guy off the field has absolutely NOTHING to do with him as a player. He’s developing a much different reputation on the field among fans that don’t have Cubs colored glasses on.

CubsMLOrNah
8 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

Probably because the dude has helped countless child cancer victims and just won the Roberto Clemente award. An award for the player that “best exemplifies the game of baseball, sportsmanship, community involvement and the individual’s contribution to his team”

Rational FanMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  CubsMLOrNah

Great… tiger woods does more charity work than any athlete and he is not exactly the epitome of a role model. Charitable work does not make someone a good person. Cosby did a lot of it to…. Sandusky started a children’s camp etc.

The Cubs cry more than any organization -maddon crying about schedule and travel all year. It’s funny how the Cubs promote “old school” baseball in terms of sliding and hurting a player but when they were thrown at that’s unacceptable. Contreras cried and said he’d ignore the mound visit rule. Lester cried about the nacho fan. This team bitches more than any other and thinks they don’t have to play by the rules. Rizzo is a dirty player. Two years in a row he ignored the rule and could have badly hurt someone because him and Maddon don’t agree with the rule so they chose to ignore it. Disgraceful he wasn’t suspended. A force play makes it even worse. Bush league move by a player who thinks the rules only apply if he agrees with them. Imagine if this happened to Contreras lol. Cubs would be crying non stop

Curious Gorge
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

^^^ this guy is a Sox fan… they hate the Cubs more than they like their own team… they’re the most bitter fans in the country

Rational FanMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Curious Gorge

Should I quote all these things I claimed?

Willson saying he’ll ignore the rule because he doesn’t agree with it:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-spt-cubs-willson-contreras-mound-visits-notes-20180220-story.html

Lester and Maddon crying about the Slide Rule being properly enforced:

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/19377486/chicago-cubs-joe-maddon-jon-lester-rip-slide-rule-loss-st-louis-cardinals

Joe Maddon crying about playing a game in weather he didn’t think they should play in:

https://670thescore.radio.com/cubs-joe-maddon-criticize-decision-play-miserable-weather-MLB-office

Joe Maddon crying about the Wrigley Field aspect of scheduling:

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/chicago-cubs/cubs-joe-maddons-wrigley-problem-next-years-schedule

Maddon complaining about Memorial Day start time:

http://www.espn.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/12950141/chicago-cubs-manager-joe-maddon-unhappy-memorial-day-start

Jon Lester mad about the Nacho Guy who did nothing wrong:

https://deadspin.com/jon-lester-is-not-happy-about-the-nacho-man-1818807336

Anthony Rizzo crying about playing too many games:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/apr/17/we-play-too-much-chicago-cubs-anthony-rizzo-calls-for-shorter-season

As I said, no team complains more than the Cubs about the rules, scheduling, and emotion/fun of baseball. Pretty hilarious. I could quote 100 more articles.

CosmoMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Growing up in Chicago, I can assure you there’s a lot more complaints coming from the South Side and their miserable fans. There’s a black cloud hanging over the G Spot.

Rational FanMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Cosmo

Go ahead and quote any White Sox players complaining about MLB scheduling, and league rule changes stating that they are going to ignore them; I will wait.

This has turned into a Cub love fest in here; defend Rizzo as if you actually knew him. I have no bias in this situation, just knowledge and disdain for an organization that feels they are above the rules of the game.

Also tired of seeing fans point to charitable work as a crutch for kindness when we witness celebrites and athletes time and time again act like POS despite charitable work.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

“I have no bias in this situation, just…disdain for an organization” is…well, it’s an interesting statement.

Besides, I don’t think anyone is actually defending Rizzo here.

Rational FanMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Uh, there are plenty of people in this chain and the comment section defending Rizzo; hiding behind his “character” that they know nothing about given that they don’t know Anthony Rizzo personally but OK. The Cubs blatantly continue to tell the league they’re going to ignore the rules.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

“I’m part of a decently intelligent Cubs group on Facebook. We’ve discussed the play and the vote was split. There’s a decent amount of Cubs fans that will say he’s wrong. I think people are defending Rizzo’s character more than the play… but obviously my fanbase can get pretty protective. I can’t deny it.”

Nobody actually defended Rizzo on the play. Only explaining why other fans like Rizzo and are willing to defend him in this instance because they like him. Do you see the difference?

Rational FanMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

“We’ve discussed the play and the vote was split.”

Somehow = “Nobody actually defended Rizzo on the play.” Interesting.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Nobody HERE.

374285942768
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

well i for one have a brother who tells me that rizzo is a regular at his restaurant and he’s chummy, polite, and classy. something that anyone who works in the industry knows doesn’t apply to sox fans.

tramps like us
8 years ago
Reply to  374285942768

baseball history is filled with players known for their ferocity on the field and their congeniality off. As it should be. You want to make this about Rizzo’s character. It’s not; it’s about what he did.

j27roenick
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

“I have no bias in this situation, just knowledge and disdain for an organization that feels they are above the rules of the game.”

Yes, I’m always looking for more unbiased Cubs opinions from the guy who predicted that Kris Bryant was going to be a bust and that Kyle Schwarber would never recover after his poor start in the 1H of 2017.

374285942768
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

thats a lot of crying youre doing about the cubs

Captain Tenneal
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

The Memorial Day article has this gem from Maddon: Joe Maddon says that “just because something has been done a certain way in the past doesn’t mean it’s right.”

kenai kings
8 years ago

there you go. Joe would be wise to apply this same logic to the plays in question, and recognize the danger his own players could face.

Wu-Bacca
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

There are indeed other examples, Rational Fan. One that comes to mind is Javy Baez complaining that he flubbed a grounder b/c of white signage behind home plate at Busch Stadium – then he and Chris Bosio claimed that the Cardinals messed with the signage deliberately to hurt the Cubs (which was provably false – the signage was the same for both teams).

tramps like us
8 years ago
Reply to  Curious Gorge

assuming he is, you didn’t make even a feeble attempt to argue against his very specific points.

113CandleMagic
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Don’t forget last year when Chris Bosio and John Lackey basically accused Eric Thames of taking PEDs.

Rational FanMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  113CandleMagic

Forgot about that one. That after the Cubs whined non-stop when rumblings started to take place surrounding arrieta’s remarkable turnaround and physique. Once again confirming that when the Cubs do it, it is ok

david k
8 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

A lot of [people here talking about which fan base cries the most, I wish there was more talk about the play itself. I can see how the HP ump could have missed the call, given his angle, but I can’t see how the folks missed it that do the replay reviews. Unless they somehow didn’t have access to the view from behind HP going up the 3B line (3rd GIF above). I wish I had the audio of the Cubs TV broadcast feed as I would have loved to hear how they described the play and whether they admitted Rizzo’s slide should have been ruled interference or not.

I say this because I saw a replay of Musgrove’s slide into Baez 2 days later and the Cubs announcers were screaming “double play”.. “double play” because they believed that slide was clearly illegal. I was wondering if they were fair on both accounts, or just Cubs homers.

david k
8 years ago
Reply to  david k

Also, I found Maddon’s comment that Diaz should have cleared a bigger path completely ludicrous. He took a full step forward out of the front of the batter’s box to make the throw. What does Maddon want him to do, run up to the pitcher’s mound and make the throw? He’s trying to make a double play and doesn’t have time to do all that. Diaz did it EXACTLY RIGHT, and Maddon is a moron to suggest otherwise.

thestatbook
8 years ago

Is there a more pompous asshole in baseball than Joe Maddon? John Gibbons might be the only one remotely close.

He’s an okay manager who acts like he’s superior to everyone. The schtick has gotten real old.

AlexTheGreat
8 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

Have you ever heard of Buck Showalter?

The Ghost of Johnny Dickshot
8 years ago
Reply to  AlexTheGreat

I think Maddon has lapped Showalter in terms of assholeness.

tramps like us
8 years ago

he’s retired from the field, but can we include Tony Larussa in this category, too?

Wu-Bacca
8 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

So wait a minute – you’re telling me that the guy who’s gone off on players for admiring their home runs, who responded to players kneeling during the National Anthem by saying “it’s dangerous when folks in our country stop respecting the White House,” who said Elias Diaz should either learn how to let Rizzo barrel into his knees or “don’t catch, don’t play the position” is perhaps not the avuncular teddy bear the media has led us to believe the past few years? HOW DARE YOU.

lambert58
8 years ago
Reply to  Wu-Bacca

Agree, and, extra points for the use of the word avuncular. Nice.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

Yeah, Maddon really shows his true colors here.

That said, I would characterize him as a very good manager…who also is a pompous asshole.

DougMember since 2019
8 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

I can think of a couple of umpires. You know who they are.

Maggie25
8 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

You leave Gibbons out of this! But honestly, like him or not, I do not understand calling him pompous.

chuckbMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

Is Tony LaRussa technically still in the game? Regardless, Maddon is definitely trying to assume that mantle.

Wu-Bacca
8 years ago
Reply to  chuckb

He’s definitely following the La Russa career path: from Innovator to Reactionary Crank in half a generation.

RadermecherMember since 2018
8 years ago
Reply to  Wu-Bacca

Having watched LaRussa as a twins fan.
He fought for his players,and won games.
So does Joe Madden.
You may disagree with the style.
They are successful,and sometimes hard to take.

hopbittersMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

There was an odd period, I think in the mid-2000s, when Maddon was with the (Devil?) Rays and alternating between his old school mantras whenever his team was on the controversial end of a play and righteous indignation whenever anything happened to his own players. The Red Sox seemed to get the brunt of it and, for whatever reason, the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry had simmered down a bit. The Yankees weren’t overly enthused with the Rays’ antics either so for a brief time, the Yankees and Sox were sort of vaguely united against the Rays. When you have Yankee fans rooting for Boston in a fight against your team, you’ve done… something. I’m not sure what, but definitely something.

revolu
8 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

What did John Gibbons do to deserve the moniker of pompous asshole?

Maggie25
8 years ago
Reply to  revolu

That’s what I’m saying! His whole persona is folksy old-timer. “Now I’m just a simple country manager” type stuff.

SertoriusMember since 2023
8 years ago
Reply to  revolu

The two Gibbons moments i can think of are saying “They want all the players to wear dresses” after his team got penalized for clearly blocking the plate and helping to escalate and prolong the Rangers brawl after Bautista tried to break Odor’s leg.

sgp2204
8 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

No, no there’s not.

dwm8a
8 years ago

I’m surprised he didn’t yell “Respect Me!!” after each takeout slide.

BobbyJohn69
8 years ago

Rizzo clearly has no intention of abiding by the rule.

He probably needs a few days off to think about it, and I hope he gets them.

DougMember since 2019
8 years ago
Reply to  BobbyJohn69

Hell, give him a few weeks. Flagrant, unrepentant violations of the rules deserve serious consequences.

bluescale
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

It couldn’t have been that flagrant if both the umpires on the field and the replay booth in New York said the slide was legal.

I’m not arguing in favor of Rizzo’s slide, but I think it’s incorrect to assume that what he did was so obviously wrong. The very people responsible for knowing the rules got it wrong after watching it multiple times and from different angles.

Free Clay Zavada
8 years ago
Reply to  bluescale

So the umps’ incompetence somehow absolves Rizzo of something?

bluescale
8 years ago

I’m not absolving Rizzo of anything. My point is simple that it’s not nearly as flagrant as some are making it out to be. The league ruled that the slide was illegal, and Rizzo should probably be fined (especially now that he and Maddon have gone on record saying they don’t really care about the rule), but if it’s obvious, one of the many umpires involved in the ruling would have ruled it interference.

DougMember since 2019
8 years ago
Reply to  bluescale

I meant “flagrant” in the sense of “shameless.”

jayman4Member since 2018
8 years ago
Reply to  bluescale

Completely and totally flagrant. How in the world the NY video team could not figure that out is very odd.

tonywalnuts
8 years ago
Reply to  bluescale

Uh, no. Thats just all kinds of illogical. The umps in the field and in the booth need to be retrained, as it was obviously illegal. Wrong is a different question and flagrant is irrelevant.

A slide shall be deemed appropriate, in the case of a feet first slide, if the runner’s buttocks and legs should hit the ground before contact with the catcher.

slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder.

NOt sure how much more obvious it needs to be.

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago
Reply to  bluescale

The idea that he needs a large suspension over something debatable is absurd.

david k
8 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

I wouldn’t put this in the class of “debatable”. Virtually NOBODY outside of the north side of Chicago think the slide was legal (and in fact, many Cubs fans know it too). Just because the HP umpire had an unfortunate angle and missed it, and the replay reviewers are incompetent is no reason to believe the play was “debatable”

Magician_531
8 years ago
Reply to  bluescale

The only possible goal of the slide was to hit the catcher and break up the double play (as there was no tag to avoid and he didn’t need to make sure to stay on the bag). Therefore, even if whether or not the slide technically broke a rule wasn’t obvious, his intent there was.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
8 years ago

It might have been legal but they should create a new rule: at a force at home the runner must stay outside of the foul line all the way and slide or run over the outside part of the plate. At the same time the catcher must leave a lane to the outer half open and can’t block it on a force.

This would probably solve that situation similar to how it is at first base were usually the 1B stands on the inner half of the plate and the batter-runner runs over the outer corner of the bag. at second and third that doesn’t really work but at home and first it does because you can overrun the base and you don’t need to take a turn. rizzo clearly crossed the foul line to break up the DP. I don’t know if that is legal but if it is change it, on a force you don’t need to run inside the foul line, just run a couple inches outside of it and then slide over the outside part of the plate.

thestatbook
8 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

I agree with your rule idea, but I’m unsure how it would pertain to this circumstance. Díaz was a good 2-3 feet in front of home plate and Rizzo’s path to is was completely unhindered.

Matt
8 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

I think the point would be to make Rizzo’s slide incontrovertibly illegal, so that as soon as he steps inside the baseline the ump would call interference on it. The fact that Rizzo gets away with it now is because of the grey area in the wording of the rules.

bly
8 years ago
Reply to  Matt

It pretty clearly was. Imagine this slide takes place at first on an intended 3-4 DP.

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago
Reply to  bly

I can’t imagine that – it could never happen like that. In this scenario, I assume it is 150 feet from 1st to second – in that scenario, I would expect the slide to be deemed legal. It seems like this most commenters here don’t really understand anything that goes into the pivot on a double play – either the base-running or fielding parts. In fact they seem to be quite uncomfortable with the realities. I hate to break it to everyone, but every slide with contact is an interaction between two players – the fielder can always choose to protect themselves or not – they get it. The fielder always plays a role in the collision.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
8 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

The current rules are just fine to deal with this; they just need to actually be enforced.

In a world where the rules are actually enforced, there would never be a reason for a runner to slide into home on a force play. The catcher can’t block the plate when he doesn’t have the ball anymore than a first baseman could. If there is no space for the runner to run across the plate, that is blocking the plate. Since the only reason to slide would be to take out the catcher, there shouldn’t be any reason to slide because runners should not be allowed to take out the catcher.

bly
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

I don’t see this mentioned here, but he was out for so long I don’t see how he was a runner anymore. You have to slide coming into second on a potential DP to make a place for the fielder to throw to first. But coming to home?

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Those aren’t the realities of baseball. Slides do not serve only one purpose. Every child learns this early in their baseball career. You slide to give the fielder something to deal with on the turn – its not about hurting them, nor is it an epidemic that needs to be dealt with. Fielders also learn how to deal with this, or they don’t and they accept that risk. Since when is a slide into a fielder a problem? I don’t agree that it is is. I can see why people wouldn’t like it, but it is a part of the game. Slides aren’t dirty, they are part of the game. I could see them going away, but that would be a different game, which MLB is not above.

Brian Cartwright
8 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

I’d think “don’t deviate to target the fielder” should be sufficient

chuckd45Member since 2016
8 years ago

I agree – common sense is that, so long as the catcher is providing a lane, he will ultimately be the recipient of the baseball and therefore pose the threat of an out…which the runner should be avoiding under the safe slide/path rules AND to score a run. Mandating that fair territory is out of bounds and exclusively where the C operates takes the rare, but necessary, opportunity for the catcher to move foul side to give the inside lane (i.e. crossing back for high/errant throw, to give a throw coming in from LF/3B a cleaner lane if there’s traffic at 3B, etc.) Runner has a clear view of where the C is setting up/moving, and should have time to react. Unless you’re Anthony Rizzo.

gaius marius
8 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

while we’re writing new rules, why doesn’t MLB end the parsing by clearly stating in rule that no runner may initiate contact with any fielder under any circumstances — under penalty of both being called out and immediate ejection?

that they haven’t gone that far leads me to believe that MLB does see a place for limited contact in the game — which is not awful, as the amount of injury time accrued in MLB over these situations is not large and this is a part of the game with long tradition behind it.

timprov
8 years ago
Reply to  gaius marius

Because the runner has a right to the baseline, and an obligation to stay within it.

The Ghost of Johnny Dickshot
8 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

MLB said it was interference.

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago

MLB also made a decision to start runners at second in the minor leagues in extra innings. MLB makes lots of mistakes. This isn’t an organization trending up and I don’t trust their decision making processes.

dslimak
8 years ago

I am a Cubs fan, but it seems obvious that the slide violated the rule book. It is ok for Rizzo or Maddon to think the rule is a bad one, but they need to learn to follow it even if they don’t agree with it.

Maggie25
8 years ago
Reply to  dslimak

They’re conscientious objectors mannnn

MoateMember since 2022
8 years ago
Reply to  dslimak

Having recently bought tickets within shouting distance of first base for a Cubs game specifically because Rizzo is my wife’s favorite player, I’m with you on this.

This is a terrible look for the team. Rizzo needs to get at LEAST a slap on the wrist so he knocks this off. Maybe a suspension so he can go visit a children’s hospital and think about what he did. Hit Madden up with a fine too for encouraging his players to defy the rules.

IanMember since 2016
8 years ago

As a Cub fan, a fine or suspension wouldn’t bother me at all either.

BallparkFanMember since 2016
8 years ago

Anthony Rizzo is one of my favorite players. Joe Maddon is my favorite manager. Putting that aside, I agree with Craig’s assessment and conclusions.

Garys of OldeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  BallparkFan

Came to write this but you and others beat me to it. Also came to rag on White Sox fans responding, but what is the point.

EonADSMember since 2024
8 years ago

Also reminded of all the complaining that happened during the playoffs last year when Contreras blocked the plate. Maddon responded just as poorly then. Kind of seems like his disregard for rules governing catcher safety is the common thread.

Frankly, he’s allowed to dislike the rule. But that doesn’t give him a pass to ignore it, either.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
8 years ago

I have nothing against rizzo, he is a hard playing old school player just like utley who wants to win every game and stretches the rules for that. However we don’t live in 1985 anymore and MLB has decided that they don’t need to breaking up of double plays aspect of the game.

because of this they should enforce the rules on this, without some penalties they won’t get rid of it.

Rational FanMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

Is there any saying worse than an “old school player?” What that means to me is a cranky white guy who doesn’t like people to show emotion when good things happen, believe in physical retaliation for things they don’t agree with, and an ignorance for rules implemented to protect players safety.

Brian McCann is a nice example, as is Rizzo. The only people allowed to have fun are themselves or their teammates and the only people that should be protected are their teammates.

Curious Gorge
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

When has Rizzo *ever* been part of the fun police? Your Sox bias is shining brightly.

Rational FanMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Curious Gorge

He ignores rules to play old school baseball, and has complained about countless rules and etc that harm “old school baseball.” So he’s not a part of the fun police, cool. 2 out of 3 is enough for me.

dustin0224
8 years ago
Reply to  Curious Gorge

When Rondon sprayed shoe cleaner at his groin. Although he did try to quickly recover from that and resume the fun 😉 That’s the only time I can remember.

timmer
8 years ago

There is a clear problem here:

Rizzo is saying that it’s his job to “break up the double play”. But that’s precisely what was illegal. Rizzo seems to think that he can break up the double play while staying within the parameters of the slide rule, but that’s just not the case. If Rizzo’s slide yesterday is illegal (and it is) then initiating contact to break up the double play is illegal.

“Breaking up the double play” has been “good baseball” for a century but MLB has recognized that it’s dangerous. They should be explicit about the fact that “breaking up the double play” is no longer “good baseball” and old schoolers are just going to have to deal with it.

Brian Cartwright
8 years ago
Reply to  timmer

You can break up the double play if the fielder is still on the base. You can’t go chasing him across the infield.

timmer
8 years ago

Sorta.

Basically, the rules are now that you can slide into the base. But historically, “trying to break up the double play” meant “try to slide into the pivot man”.

But the key thing, the thing I think MLB needs to be very clear about, is that the “try” part is now illegal. You can slide into the base and perhaps make contact with the fielder. But you cannot “try” to hit the fielder anymore. I think they should say exactly that.

Brian Cartwright
8 years ago
Reply to  timmer

I was speaking of the current rule.

The old rule was if the runner could touch the base he was good. Now he has to stay on a line towards the base.

If the shortstop of the catcher is standing on the base then they are in the runner’s way and fair game. But the runner’s primary intent is to get to the base.

Bronnt
8 years ago

I seriously think that, if you’re going to initiate a slide, you at least need the PRETENSE that you’re just trying to reach a base safely. In this case, Rizzo was out before he ever started sliding, so there’s no point to it.

The only reason to slide into home is to avoid a tag anyway since you can just run through home plate. If you’re not sliding to avoid a tag, why are you sliding? The only reason is here is to get a cheap shot on a player who isn’t looking. Not that I’m trying to imply that Rizzo is dirty, but it is pretty scummy to take out someone’s legs when they’re facing away from you, and the NFL has several different rules about that.

Jetsy Extrano
8 years ago
Reply to  Bronnt

This is what really stands out to me too. You can’t be sliding to reach the base at this point, you’re sliding purely as a weapon. That’s no good.

Magician_531
8 years ago
Reply to  Bronnt

The other reason to slide into a bag (which also doesn’t apply here at all) is to make sure that you don’t overrun it. I agree that a runner should have to at least have a pretense that he is trying to reach the base safely.

Shirtless George Brett
8 years ago
Reply to  timmer

Breaking up the double play is still good baseball. All MLB did was reign it back into the realm of reality. It had gotten to the point where guys were diving at the knees of a SS who was 10 feet off the bag under the guise of “breaking up the doubke play” which was absurd and dangerous.

timmer
8 years ago

I don’t think that’s true. “Deviate from your path” = “Try to make contact with the fielder”. You cannot try to hit the guy to disrupt the throw any longer. “Trying to break up the double play” is illegal, and that’s what Anthony doesn’t realize.

Shirtless George Brett
8 years ago
Reply to  timmer

You can still slide into the fielder (EG; break up the double play) if he is near the base and you make an honest effort to slide into the base and not him. It happens all the time.

The change is that you cant slide soley at the fielder with zero regard for the base any more.

timmer
8 years ago

That’s kinda my point though. You can slide at the base and if the fielder is in the way, then so be it. But all the runner can do now is slide to the base, they no longer can “try” to do anything about the double play. Just slide to the bag and hope for the best. The idea that you can “try” to do anything to disrupt the play is now dead.

Momus
8 years ago

@Shirtless George Brett — Ah yes, the Rougned Odor move. Remember when he went like ten feet to the 3B side of second so he could bury his raised cleat into the side of Giovatello’s knee?

Jon L.Member since 2016
8 years ago

Thanks for the article. I come away from it believing not only that Anthony Rizzo should be suspended without pay, but also that Joe Maddon should be fined for trying to undermine MLB’s safety rules, and that the umpires should be privately admonished for allowing a clearly illegal play to stand and possibly affect the outcome of a game.

(Adding here the usual note of not being a Pirates’ fan, or anti-Cubs, except as regards the Craig Edwards article above.)

difflja
8 years ago

I’m an Anthony Rizzo fan, but that slide was wrong given current rules and probable intent (yeah, tough to know intent, but give me a break). And Maddon clearly neither believes in nor supports the rule. MLB can change all the rules it wants, but if they’re not enforced and not supported by management—-always love the “it was just a baseball play BS”—-well, then we get retritributive “baseball plays” in return. And so it goes……and nothing changes.

Being Don Mattingly
8 years ago
Reply to  difflja

Exactly. If Rizzo isn’t punished, teams will take matters into their own hands.

And then Maddon will cry like a baby when Rizzo gets his hand broken by a high-inside pitch, or gets spiked in the leg on a play at first.

Rational FanMember since 2020
8 years ago

Yeah, Old School Baseball is only good for the Cubs when they’re the ones doing it to other people. When the Cubs are the ones on the receiving end of the punishment, they cry endlessly.

Spartacus
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

You sure are an unhappy bunghole.

Rational FanMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Spartacus

Not really, just tired of an organization blatantly telling the league how they’re going to ignore all the rules they don’t agree with; putting an opposing player in harms way.

374285942768
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

no, you are.

Garys of OldeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

You must have been one of those Sox fans chanting “Cubs suck” during your own World Series games and subsequent parade. Defining your fanhood by who you hate. Sort of the opposite of fun.

NFSontheNorthside
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Are you going to whine this much about the cubs if the white sox become competitive? The fact that you feel the need to jump into nearly every conversation is pretty telling. Its definitely not helping the white sox fan stereotype

Garys of OldeMember since 2016
8 years ago

A few thousand Sox fans did whine (or at least chant) about the Cubs every home game of their World Series win. This despite the fact that the Cubs were irrelevant that year. So to answer your question, yes they will probably continue. I hope they do get better, I like a lot of their young players. Just wish their fans would stop harassing everyone wearing blue.

Bronnt
8 years ago
Reply to  difflja

Perhaps intent can be tough to gauge real time, but if you’re not even going into your slide until you’ve already been forced out, it’s clear what you are trying to do.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
8 years ago
Reply to  Bronnt

That, and also nobody slides like that when there isn’t a fielder there. Rizzo has played baseball for 20 years. He knows how to slide.

Magician_531
8 years ago
Reply to  Bronnt

Also, there was no reason to slide there other than to break up the double play (no tag play and no worry about sliding beyond the bag, so the intent is obvious).

de CarabasMember since 2017
8 years ago

“You have to teach proper technique. He’s gotta get out farther, he’s gotta keep his foot on the plate clear because that’s absolutely what can happen.”

This quote from Maddon is probably what bugs me the most about this situation. As the second gif clearly shows, Diaz made a clear effort to get clear of the plate after making the play. He caught the ball, drug his foot across the plate, and made a full hop toward first to make the throw. If Rizzo hadn’t gone out of his way to take Diaz out, he wouldn’t have been anywhere near him. With a proper slide, he wouldn’t have even been able to touch Diaz, even if he reached his arm out. I think a fine and suspension should definitely be in his very near future.

MikeSMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  de Carabas

Diaz is a step and a half off the plate and up the line. Rizzo was out four steps from home plate. It is clear that Rizzo went out of his way to make contact which is illegal by the letter and the spirit of the law. It is bizarre that MLB let him get away with it, especially when it is a second offense.

david k
8 years ago
Reply to  de Carabas

DaveT, I totally agree with you! His statement was totally ludicrous. He took a full step forward out of the front of the batter’s box to make the throw. What does Maddon want him to do, run up to the pitcher’s mound and make the throw? He’s trying to make a double play and doesn’t have time to do all that. Diaz did it EXACTLY RIGHT, and Maddon is a moron to suggest otherwise.

BillClinton
8 years ago

MLB managers who blatantly ignore rules MLB has put in place for player safety should be forced to endure one AB against the impacted team—without any game implications; lets say the 1st AB of the game—and face their own tough-guy music.

Deacon DrakeMember since 2017
8 years ago

Yeah, not sure where all the gray area is here. The video is in disputable- Rizzo deviated his path significantly to try to take out Diaz’ leg. If this were soccer, that would be a red card, possible suspension. If this were football, that would be 15 yards and a fine. Baseball? Good work, son, but it is against the rules… only 2 runs score.

Rizzo was out, the interference should have killed the play and the runner at first out. And upon review, they should have ejected him for going Johnny Lawrence on him.

HoratioSky
8 years ago

If Diaz was blocking home plate, then this slide would have been fine. In fact, I believe he could have taken out the catcher with a shoulder if only Diaz was obstructing the plate. The infraction was that he weaved in to Diaz from the other side of the foul line in order to trip him and break up the double play. This is about as obvious as it gets, folks.

I hate the Posey rule as I think it is going to cause more injuries to young catchers who don’t learn to protect themselves properly, but as it’s written, this violation is obvious. By not blocking home plate, Diaz was probably thinking he was avoiding a collision and doing the right thing and he gets penalized for it.

Many people predicted this would happen when the rule was created because the rule was a careless and hasty change to try and protect golden boys of the game instead of promoting safety. Here is a golden boy (Rizzo) and he is taking advantage of the rule used to protect stars like himself. Brilliant.

Mason
8 years ago
Reply to  HoratioSky

The “Posey Rule” was a careless and hasty change? Are we referring to the same catcher-interference rule that was established in 2014 in response to an injury that occurred to Buster Posey in 2011? lol Also, I cant think of one catcher that was injured due to this rule change.

Wu-Bacca
8 years ago
Reply to  Mason

A study out of Johns Hopkins looked at the ten years 2001-10 and found about 2 injuries per year due to home-plate collisions. I can find only one since 2014 (Chad Kuhl as a baserunner running into Stephen Vogt), and it doesn’t seem to be due to the Posey Rule. If, as HoratioSky suggests, the rule “is going to cause more injuries to young catchers” you’d think we’d see more indications of that, although it’s possible my search missed some examples.

formerly matt wMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Wu-Bacca

For the record, here’s the Kuhl-Vogt collision.

You could honestly make the argument that if it weren’t for the POsey Rule this wouldn’t have happened. Vogt is injured because he catches the ball up the line and has to dive back to the plate to tag Kuhl, and they get tangled up. Before the Posey rule, Vogt would probably be back blocking the plate before the throw comes in, so he wouldn’t have had to dive back awkwardly. (It may not help that Kuhl is a pitcher and probably doesn’t have the best sliding technique.)

On the other hand, before the Posey rule Kuhl would almost certainly have had to try to run him over. On balance I think it’s been an unalloyed good, and has improved baseball aesthetically as well (slides and tags are better than collisions).

Wu-Bacca
8 years ago

Thanks for doing that research, formerly matt.

Shirtless George Brett
8 years ago
Reply to  HoratioSky

I’m confused. What exactly do young catchers have to protect themselvess from if runners are no longer allowed to smash them with a 90′ running start?

What is causing this theoretical plague of injuries??

Lou BrownMember since 2017
8 years ago

This is the reason people should root for laundry instead of players. Don’t pretend to know that Rizzo isn’t a P.O.S.

OneearMember since 2018
8 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

The guy almost lives at the child cancer ward. You might not like his slide, but calling him a P.O.S. is nuts.

Lou BrownMember since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Oneear

I can’t attest to his motives for spending so much time at a child cancer ward, but a series of rights do not exonerate a person for his wrongs. Awful people are capable of doing good. He went out of his way to try and injure 2 players.

Wu-Bacca
8 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

I don’t know a ton about Rizzo, but he seems like a decent enough guy (apart from these takeout slides) (and that “RESPECT ME” moment, ridiculous b/c (a) he did it after a cheapo pop-up single, and (b) he was miffed that the Nats didn’t pitch around him – a direct insult to his teammate on deck, Willson Contreras). Hm. Maybe Rizzo isn’t an awful person capable of doing good but rather a good person capable of doing awful and/or silly things?

timmer
8 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

God this kills me. For like 100 years you were supposed to purposefully slide into the fielder to prevent a double play. A couple of years ago, the league changed the rules in a way that still was confusing (the replay review team said it was fine) and the player who violated the new rule is now a P.O.S. Crazy shit.

FillmoreMember since 2018
8 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

And wonderful people are capable of doing bad. But apparently in your book “spending free time doing charity work for sick children” + “performing a potentially dangerous, probably illegal slide that was considered fine until a few years ago” = “POS awful person”. Your pompous moralizing is callow and weak.

Lou BrownMember since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Fillmore

Legal or illegal, when a player deliberately makes a very dangerous play with a high probability of injuring another player but not himself it represents a character flaw. For many years I was always against defensive backs obliterating defenseless receivers, I am anti-boarding, and anti Kevin McHale. I’ve never known a dirty player in all my years of sports who wasn’t also a dirty human. Rizzo deserves all of his credit for his charitable work, but he’s still a douche.

Bret
8 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

I’m willing to guess that his motives revolve around his being a cancer survivor.

374285942768
8 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

the burden of proof is on you to support this claim that “he went out of his way to try AND INJURE 2 players.” from what i can see is he made a hard-nose play to try to negate an out. but there’s nothing that shows any kind of vindictiveness or malice towards the opposing player.

thestatbook
8 years ago
Reply to  374285942768

If we’re setting the bar at “trying to injure” you’ll never prove anything, as we’re not inside Rizzo’s head.

Rizzo knows the rules. He knows he is not allowed to slide into the catcher like that, but yet he does. Quite frankly, I don’t care about your intent when you are blatantly breaking the rules. When you are willfully negligent and reckless, you kind of assume all the results to your name, intent or not.

Rational FanMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Oneear

When will people learn to stop pointing to athlete’s and celebrities charitable work to decide whether someone is a good person or not?

How many celebrities and athletes have been exposed as complete pieces of shit despite all their volunteer work?

You don’t know Anthony Rizzo personally and you have absolutely zero clue if he’s a good person or not. Doing charitable work does not make one a good person; plenty of scumbags volunteer their time in the public eye.

EonADSMember since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

“You don’t know Anthony Rizzo personally and you have absolutely zero clue if he’s a good person or not.”

Rational Fan, doesn’t this go for you as well? Because your entire argument is based around acknowledging wrongs he has committed while ignoring completely the good he’s done for the local community because it supports your narrative. Why is your argument somehow more valid than anyone else’s?

Rational FanMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  EonADS

Acknowledging? I call Anthony Rizzo a dirty player on the baseball field; based on his history of playing baseball, that’s exactly what he is. He barreled over a catcher last year despite the rule change, and now he’s going out of his way to take out a catchers plant leg while throwing even though he was forced out.

I know nothing about Anthony Rizzo personally; therefore I don’t call him a good or bad person. I know he’s a dirty baseball player though – who feels he is above the rules of the game – because his actions and words have said such. Please show me where I personally called out Anthony Rizzo in regards to him off the field? What I said is people need to stop assessing the quality of an athlete (calling them good people) with having no clue as to who they really are.

Where do I ignore the good stuff he does for the neighborhood and what does any of that have to do with him being wrong, and frankly an asshole, on the baseball diamond? He’s a repeat offender. Had Carl Everett done this – or John Rocker – I’m sure everyone would be coming to his defense? Donating time to charities doesn’t change the actions on the diamond.

scotttttttttttt
8 years ago

Baseball is a funny game. You’ve always been able to slide tackle a guy at second base or home plate to prevent him from throwing/catching the ball. But you’ve never been able to slide tackle a first basemen to prevent him from catching the ball at first. What’s the difference?

¯\_(?)_/¯

Shirtless George Brett
8 years ago

Because allowing the slide tackle at second was always stupid in the first place.

scotttttttttttt
8 years ago

This is actually my point. Sorry if it sounded like I was defending the idea of breaking up the double play. I was actually attacking it.

Magician_531
8 years ago

I agree that doing something specifically to break up a double play like that, is dirty, but the situation at second and at first are not the same because sliding into second is often a reasonable thing to do (to avoid sliding beyond the bag) so that in case the fielder loses the ball on his own, you’re safe.

(This particular play at the plate falls into the first base category, not the second base category.)

WebsMember since 2020
8 years ago

I suspect that Maddon fully recognizes that Rizzo was wrong but is publicly supporting his player as part of his duty.

DougMember since 2019
8 years ago
Reply to  Webs

…and throwing another part of his duty under the bus to accomplish it. No, that’s no excuse.

thestatbook
8 years ago
Reply to  Webs

Somehow, I don’t believe Maddon thinks Rizzo did anything wrong.

Wu-Bacca
8 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

Maddon has also more or less acknowledged that he doesn’t agree with the Posey Rule, nor does he intend to encourage his players to follow it. Not sure how that protects them exactly.

The Ghost of Johnny Dickshot
8 years ago
Reply to  Wu-Bacca

Let’s hope somebody takes out Contreras.

MoateMember since 2022
8 years ago

Supporting retaliation seems like a bad look Mr. Dickshot.

FS54
8 years ago

Can someone please explain to me why is it OK to break up a double play? A player going for breaking a double play implies to me that he deems himself out as he is approaching the plate or base. If he is intending to score, shouldn’t he try to avoid the player with the ball, not run into him and risk possible injury? Honestly next time Rizzo or someone attempts this BS, I want the catcher to perform Big Boot on the runner.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
8 years ago
Reply to  FS54

Because testosterone, is why.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
8 years ago

The rule should be worded more strongly. The phrase “without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder” is terribly vague, and requires the umpire to know what is in the heart of the baserunner.

Instead, simply state that the baserunner is required to attempt to avoid contact with the defender, so long as doing so does not impede his ability to reach base. Forget trying to determine intent. If the runner has a clear path to the base and slides into the defender, he’s out.

If the defender is blocking the bag, go ahead and hit them. Blocking the bag is it’s own violation. But if the defender is NOT blocking the bag, the baserunner can’t take a path or make a slide such that they initiate contact. It’s that simple.

timmer
8 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

This is the problem. The league should just come out and say that attempting to break up the double play is no longer legal.

Shirtless George Brett
8 years ago
Reply to  timmer

I mean, they pretty much did exactly that with the slide rule.

timmer
8 years ago

I just think they should be explicit. Rizzo saying to the press that “I was just trying to break up the double play” SOUNDS fine, it’s just baseball, but “I was just trying to break up the double play” is describing an illegal play.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

“he baserunner is required to **attempt** to avoid contact”

Your proposed rule is no less vague. And personally, I’m OK with vague. The attempt to codify all possible situations is what has led the NFL down a ridiculous rabbit hole of attempting to define a catch.

Magician_531
8 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

It is clear what was in the heart of the baserunner. If you can come up for any possible explanation to slide into home on a force play other than to initiate contact with a fielder, I’d love to hear it. The usual reasons for sliding (avoiding a tag, not sliding beyond a bag, etc.) don’t apply here.

Maggie25
8 years ago

Here’s a way to break up the double play: don’t hit into double plays.

timprov
8 years ago
Reply to  Maggie25

An even better way is to just never get on base in the first place.

Maggie25
8 years ago
Reply to  timprov

Wow. That is true outside-the-box thinking. It will shorten games too.

MDMember since 2017
8 years ago

I think the “problem” here is that the slide rule and the Posey rule have a slight inconsistency in them. The slide rule applies at all bases (except 1B?) with only a portion of it applying to Home Plate. The Posey rule only applies to Home Plate, but specifically states that contact is OK, as long as the catcher has the ball.

From a rule-reading standpoint, it’s relatively clear (as the article pointed out). From the standpoint of a player that has played the game a very specific way their entire life, interpreting their split-second decisions, etc is difficult. This is all removed from whether or not the players like the rule even. This type of play doesn’t happen often, and its fair to think that in his head, Rizzo is formulating and incorrect mash-up of portions of both of these rules.

Luy
8 years ago
Reply to  MD

If these same professional athletes have the ability to change their swing plane but changing a motion they’ve done just as long, and they can learn plate discipline by watching video and forcing their brain to think differently about 90 mph pitches…I think they can handle remembering not to run into people on purpose, and exhibit the body control necessary to not run into people on purpose.

MDMember since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Luy

“I think they can handle remembering not to run into people on purpose, and exhibit the body control necessary to not run into people on purpose.”

This is my point though. Running into people on purposes is expressly LEGAL at home plate if the catcher has the ball. It is illegal at any other bag. As the author pointed out, the home plate rule is nullified because there was a force, and thus Rizzo was already out – enter slide rule. Force-outs at home don’t happen all that often, and not knowing which bylaw of the rules applies to a certain rare situation based on nuanced context in a split second is understandable. It’s also completely different from training your body a to a swing path that it will execute without thinking due to muscle memory.

I’m not necessarily defending him, as much as saying its understandable, and he can both have been wrong while not having been the incredible nefarious jerk a lot of people here are implying him to be.

kidrobot
8 years ago

Would it be legal for Rizzo to run as fast as possible in a straight line at Diaz, screaming “I’m gonna get you!” then just run past harmlessly?

MDMember since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  kidrobot

If he does that, then by Rule 64.3.1 (c), he would need to complete the play with a tickle fight. Without a tickle fight, this would be an illegal move.

mikejuntMember
8 years ago

Don’t forget the incident in the NLCS against the Dodgers with the Cubs as well. It’s clear that the cubs do not agree with these rules and intend to find the boundary of what they can get away with.

In fact they clearly say in any number of locations that they do not like these rules and do not believe they should be followed.

MLB needs to fine the shit out of them until they get the message

The Ghost of Johnny Dickshot
8 years ago

What respect I had for Maddon is totally gone after his defending of this. What a dick.

CosmoMember since 2020
8 years ago

Yeah, I heard it’s huge!

Shirtless George Brett
8 years ago

I think people are making this too complicated.

Rizzo is out by a solid 10 feet. Well before he starts his slide. They should just rule this run of the mill interference.

Bronnt
8 years ago

It does seem to be a slam dunk case. Too many people are looking at the rule 6.01(j) which is the slide rule-just a clarification for interference calls. 6.01 (a) (5) declares that it’s interference any time a runner who has just been declared out impedes a fielder making a player. Rizzo was out before he ever started to slide, so he was interfering by sliding.

ballz1220
8 years ago

Shocker that a Cardinals Fan had a problem with the slide. This is baseball. The catcher is not wearing a skirt. Let men play a game for men. The amount of whining about this has been silly.

revolu
8 years ago
Reply to  ballz1220

You know who else wears skirts? Grown Scottish men

LHPSU
8 years ago
Reply to  revolu

I got a claymore for ya here, ballz1220.

Maggie25
8 years ago
Reply to  ballz1220

“Because I, ballz1220, know for a fact that I am much tougher than anyone who would wear a skirt. No woman could ever be tougher than I, the great ballz1220.”

Shirtless George Brett
8 years ago
Reply to  ballz1220

Ballz1220 “Instead of running to first I’m just going to tackle the guy trying to catch the ball”

Everyone else “Uhh…thats against the rules”

Ballz1220 “Fuck you, you skirt wearing pansies! this is a mans game!”

Luy
8 years ago
Reply to  ballz1220

Shocker that a grown adult who can’t handle when the internet disagrees with him immediately goes to name calling and casual misogyny!

Bonus points for being one of the loudest whiners in the comment section, while chastising others for whining. I guess it’s only whining when it’s not your opinion.

Wu-Bacca
8 years ago
Reply to  ballz1220

“Shocker that a Cardinals Fan (and 95% of non-Cardinals fans) had a problem with the slide. I, ballz1220, look at things objectively, without allegiance to the team I root for. Let men play a game for men, and let those men destroy other men’s ACLs so that my team can get an insurance run, and let me enjoy the destruction of the ACLs on those skirtless men, for I am a man, and I’m not at all insecure about being perceived as anything other than a man.”

John S
8 years ago

it’s fun to read the comments from last year’s Rizzo article: https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/anthony-rizzo-clearly-violated-the-posey-rule/

Paul G.Member since 2016
8 years ago

They should trade for Chase Utley. Drop kicks at every base!

BobbyJohn69
8 years ago

Would “breaking up the double play” include running inside the baseline and steamrolling the first baseman in an attempt to prevent him from receiving a relay throw from second base?

Asking for a friend.

steex
8 years ago
Reply to  BobbyJohn69

My understanding is that’s only acceptable behavior if you’ve already been forced out.

Cue PSA starring Anthony Rizzo: “You, alright!?! I learned it by watching you!”

jim fetterolf
8 years ago

Dirty slide. Already out and left the basepath to cheap shot the catcher. Since he likes to play hard he won’t mind getting beaned.

Garys of OldeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  jim fetterolf

This is actually true, he doesn’t seem to mind getting beaned. Probably fining him or a short suspension is a better solution.

halidonhill
8 years ago
Reply to  jim fetterolf

He hangs half his body over the plate and is at the top of the leader boards in HBP every year. I don’t think he minds being hit.

MoateMember since 2022
8 years ago
Reply to  jim fetterolf

He’s frequently at the top of the league for HBP already. There’s a reason Willson Contreras was hit twice during the next game instead…

AlbyMember since 2017
8 years ago

“I could have gone in with my shoulder like a linebacker and really took a shot,” Rizzo said.

Nobody ever beat an assault charge by pointing out he could have murdered the victim instead.

Bronnt
8 years ago
Reply to  Alby

That statement is one of the most baffling things about this situation. “What I didn’t wasn’t illegal because it wasn’t this OTHER illegal thing.”

Johnston
8 years ago
Reply to  Alby

“Nobody ever beat an assault charge by pointing out he could have murdered the victim instead.”

That’s actually not true.

Ruki Motomiya
8 years ago

I feel like the nail in the coffin is the fact Rizzo was already out. There’s literally no reason to slide, let alone clearly going towards the guy, when you’re already out, right? Especially at home plate.

Garys of OldeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Ruki Motomiya

There is a reason: to break up the double play, which he did, and runs scored. The problem was not that he didn’t have a reason, but that it was against the rules.

Bronnt
8 years ago
Reply to  Garys of Olde

When you’re already out, there’s no legal reason to slide. It was interference long before he made contact. I don’t know how this was missed on the field and on review.

Magician_531
8 years ago
Reply to  Ruki Motomiya

There wasn’t a reason to slide anyway (even if he wasn’t out yet) because there was no tag play and no worry about sliding beyond a base. The only reason for the slide was to break up the double play.

Sammy Sooser
8 years ago

“Violating the slide rule”… what exactly did they put in this unfortunate instrument?

MoateMember since 2022
8 years ago
Reply to  Sammy Sooser

THE FACT THAT THIS JOKE IS BURIED UNDER A BUNCH OF STUPID ARGUMENTS IS CRIMINAL!

ThomasMember since 2016
8 years ago

Article documents the Cubs’ old-school refusal to change their slide techniques. Up to MLB to do something about it prior to serious injury. MLB is snoozing.

Does an MLB replay review actually exist, or do the umpires just pretend? Why cannot we all see the failed process at work? We have TV cameras all over the fields but nothing in the replay room. Of course Rizzo was in the wrong – he apologized to Diaz later, which proves it. Maddon was in the wrong – he later admits he was a jerk.

Johnston
8 years ago

Everyone keeps ignoring the fact that the umpires on the field AND the replay officials BOTH ruled it a legal play, and it does not matter what the league says or does or what any of us might think about the play.

I personally hate the poor quality of MLB umpiring with a burning passion, but the umpires made the decision here, and whether anyone likes it or not, it stands. Deal with it, get over it, and move on.

Johnston
8 years ago

Side note: have you ever noticed that to a White Sox fan, everything about the Cubs is always, always, always, both bad and wrong?

I’m a serious Dodgers fan but there’s still a lot of things about the Angels that I really like and admire.

Johnston
8 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

I’m starting to enjoy the downvotes, because it’s obvious they’re consistently coming from the same crowd – and I can’t stand those people either.

szielinski
8 years ago

This is the second instance of a Cubs player attempting to injure a Pirate. We learned from these cases that Maddox is an incorrigible asshole. If the League wants to improve player safety, it should fine Maddox and Rizzo and take away the Cub’s 2018 Rd. 1 draft pick, giving it to the Pirates. The fines: $4M and $2M respectively. Maddon pays the greater fine because he has command responsibility with regards to Rizzo’s actions.

Who believes the Cubs would continue with their reckless behavior if there were severe consequences for the team and it’s players?

thestatbook
8 years ago
Reply to  szielinski

Take away their 1st round pick and give it to the Pirates? Give us all a break. This was a bush league slide, but it doesn’t and should result in giving the Pirates an extra draft pick at Chicago’s expense. What a silly idea.

timprov
8 years ago
Reply to  szielinski

In fact, every time someone does something dangerously illegal anywhere in the league they should lose their highest available pick and have it awarded to the Pirates. This is a good solution for everyone!

Well, except the draftees who get stuck playing for the Pirates. But we can take after the MLBPA and throw them under the bus.

CosmoMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  szielinski

Szielinski… why stop there? Why not sentence them to death? Kill them with fire!!! The’ll never make a mistake again.

szielinski
8 years ago
Reply to  Cosmo

The good sense contained in these responses convinced me that I was way off base. Clearly, the Cubs should not pay a penalty when their employees assault someone….

Garys of OldeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  szielinski

They should pay some kind of penalty when they break the rules, as they clearly did here. They just shouldn’t pay insane arbitrary penalties.

Melvin Hendrix
8 years ago

What is absent from the majority of the comments is common sense. MLB has created a “reasonable rule” that protects all players. Yet, Maddon and Rizzo take this as an affront. A reasonable action MLB must take now is a hefty fine and lost of games for Rizzo and a hefty fine for both Maddon and the Cubs since they not only cannot read, but are hard of hearing.

francis_soyer
8 years ago
Reply to  Melvin Hendrix

The problem is that they are trying to make a rule that allows for technically legal slides whose intent is to alter a fielder’s motion with physical contact or the threat of contact.

Contact causes injuries. If they want to eliminate injuries, penalize the contact. Don’t say “this contact is OK, but this isn’t” – just address the root cause.

MrBlonde
8 years ago

Couldn’t agree more.

WillClark
8 years ago

Any opposing runner going from home to first should slide into first and leg whip Rizzo, or as he suggests maybe they should just go in with their shoulder, i suspect if it happened a few times Rizzo would be singing a very less smug tune.

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago

There is nothing technically wrong with that slide. I get that people don’t like it, but you would have to create an insane definition of a legal slide to call that illegal. Injuries are part of the game and they are not preventable – all this amounts to is demonizing a player. I am not sure that throw to first was even going to be in time – maybe he shouldn’t have tried to turn that double play. You see middle infielders not make the throw all the time because they know what is coming. I think you can call the slide dirty if you like, but certainly not illegal in any coherent reality – I think MLB is generally misguided and does not exercise coherent decision making processes and this is mainly a reflection of that. If MLB didn’t make the mistake of calling this illegal, then there is far less discussion. MLB has been getting home plate issues wrong for a while now… I think it was a smart baseball play – he was just breaking up a double play. Diaz wasn’t even hurt… I really don’t get what any of this is about other than MLB making a mistake and us over-analyzing it. I wonder if they would take it back if they could.

halidonhill
8 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

He violated multiple tenets of the rule that defines a slide. He violated the interference rule. I can’t see how anyone can say this was anything but an illegal slide.

TheomyheroMember since 2024
8 years ago

Let me start by saying I’m a Cubs fan, if that adds any legitimacy. The rules are clear, if you deviate your path to make contract, you are out. Is this Rizzo fault for not following the rules. No. It is not Rizzo’s job to enforce the rules. It is not Joe Maddon’s. The fact of the matter is players will, regardless of what we think they should do, do whatever they can to obtain an advantage. Pitchers and catchers constantly try to make balls look like strikes. Runners will always steal signs. Fielders will play in whatever positioning they can if they are allowed. MLB needs to step in and tell Rizzo and the rest of the MLB, these slides will not be tolerated. If you want to have a discussion about the rule that happens off the diamond.

francis_soyer
8 years ago

If baseball wants to end the BS, just say that you can not initiate contact with a fielder to break up a double play.

All the “that’s not the way I learned the game” people will just need to suck it up and play the game a different way.

They can still go at the knees if they want. Just give up the out and take a fine. Basketball players know flagrant 2’s can cost them games, but they make that calculation and still do it.

I’m sure the spitball people were upset once upon a time too. So were the roughing the punter people and the cross check to the face people.

On the other hand, if the MLB doesn’t give a crap about the occasional torn ACL or head beaning, they can proceed as before.

Rainja182
8 years ago

I am Batman.

Slappytheclown
8 years ago

Played baseball all my life, and this type of play should absolutely be banned, at any base. A runner should always slide in plenty of time to end up on the bag and not five feet past it. Now, if that rule is enforced, then two other rules need to be enforced. First, the fielder absolutely has to maintain contact with the base and no more neighborhood plays AND perhaps most importantly the fielder (and catcher in particular) must provide a clear lane for sliding and accessing the base/plate. Enough with ‘blocking the plate’. It’s stupid. on that slide last year, for what it’s worth, the catcher doesn’t give Rizzo a whole lot of room to slide…so while it looks bad I have to say the catcher Hedges was in a really bad spot. The more recent one was just dangerous on Rizzo’s part. Call a few guys safe after the catcher doesn’t provide a proper lane and all of this will come to an end pretty quickly.

Oh, and ‘old school’ Maddon talking about breaking up a double play…how about this – don’t hit routine ground balls with men on base batter, make a better play.

wystan49Member since 2018
8 years ago

Craig, you helped change my view of this play (I’m a Cubs’ fan). Rizzo was way up the line when Diaz completed the out. There was no need for the contact. I’m glad Diaz wasn’t hurt & he’s right that he could have been permanently injured (ask Ray Fosse). Rizzo could have blown his own ankle or knee out on that play too.

Magician_531
8 years ago

In my mind Rizzo loses the benefit of the doubt the moment that he slides on a play where the only possible benefit is sliding into the catcher to avoid a break up a double play (he didn’t have to avoid a tag and he didn’t have to make sure to not overslide a base). If the only purpose of the slide is to make contact with the catcher, and the slide looks even a little bit dirty, one has to assume that it’s dirty. There wasn’t any legitimate reason to slide on that play in the first place.