Astros Trade for Elite Closer Currently Suspended for Domestic Violence
Roberto Osuna made his major-league debut in 2015. Since then, among all relievers with at least 100 innings, he ranks in the 88th percentile in park-adjusted ERA. Even better, he ranks in the 95th percentile in park-adjusted FIP, and he ranks in the 95th percentile in strikeout-minus-walk rate. For the most part, when Osuna has been able to pitch, he’s been very, very good, and he’s blossomed into one of the game’s better closers. It’s just that he hasn’t pitched in the majors since May 6. Not because of an injury — Osuna’s arm, presumably, is just fine. Rather, he’s currently serving out a 75-game suspension for domestic violence. He’s eligible to return this coming weekend.
The Astros want for Osuna to return wearing their uniform. And so Monday has brought news of a trade.
Astros get:
- Roberto Osuna
Blue Jays get:
The Astros are trying to repeat as World Series champions, and they identified an opportunity to land a cost-controlled, elite young reliever. Osuna’s controlled another two years after this one. The Blue Jays, meanwhile, identified an opportunity to buy low on a cost-controlled, potentially elite reliever. Giles is also controlled another two years after this one. Paulino and Perez, as well, are intriguing power-armed prospects. As a baseball trade, there’s enough here to be fascinating. But this isn’t just a baseball trade.
The Astros have an organizational reputation for being overwhelmingly, almost over-the-top analytical. That reputation is entirely warranted. From top to bottom, the Astros are a juggernaut, in terms of performance and in terms of player development, and a major reason behind their success is that they’re just so damned calculating. They tend not to get sidetracked by feelings — they play the probabilities, almost all of the time, and they already have one title to show for their philosophy. In more ways than I can count, the Astros are the envy of several other clubs. I’m sure they’ve already figured out that Osuna is likely to be a net positive. Giles’ time with Houston was clearly up.
I can’t even sit here and say the Astros are wrong. They’re probably right; Osuna will probably come back and pitch well, and he’ll probably be accepted by many of his new fans and teammates. Some of those teammates might require an explanation, but under the circumstances, there’s a strong inclination to forgive. To overlook, at the very least, or to allow a fresh beginning. Chicago didn’t celebrate any less hard when Aroldis Chapman and the Cubs won their own World Series. In professional sports, winning is the priority. That’s been demonstrated time and time again. It’s exactly why I’m surprised that Luke Heimlich doesn’t yet have a contract. I think we’re all used to seeing teams do what they need to do to try to maximize their success.
Objectively speaking, Osuna should make the Astros better on the field. He’ll strengthen a bullpen that hasn’t been as strong as the rest of the Astros’ components. They love that they’ll have him for multiple years. Importantly, I should note I don’t think the Astros are the only club that would’ve been willing to pick Osuna up. Some teams ruled themselves out, but I’m sure it wasn’t all of them. The Astros, you could say, simply won the sweepstakes. It’s also important to say that people can earn forgiveness. Osuna could take meaningful steps to demonstrate how he’s grown and changed as a person. He could sincerely express his remorse, and he could devote his time to supporting helpful organizations and initiatives. Osuna’s career needn’t be over at the age of 23. Not if he grows, not if he understands how his actions have caused so much hurt.
That all being said — that all being said — this is an acquisition that leaves a sour taste for anyone who thinks beyond the standings. The Astros might not lose many games because of Osuna. The Astros might not lose many *fans* because of Osuna. A lot of people, though, are paying attention. I’m not qualified to speak with authority to the matter of women feeling welcome as baseball fans, but little good is accomplished when forgiveness for domestic violence is granted so swiftly. This isn’t just about Osuna getting a second chance. It’s just as much about the timing.
As mentioned earlier, Roberto Osuna is still suspended. Right now, he is still serving out his 75-game suspension. I know he hasn’t been found guilty of anything in a court — his court date is still coming up. But baseball conducts its own investigations into these matters, as is its negotiated right, and in the case of Osuna, MLB saw reason to issue what was at the time its second-longest suspension under the domestic-violence policy. MLB figured Osuna deserved a severe punishment. The investigation was into an incident that happened in the early morning of May 8. It is currently July 30. It has been, for Osuna, about 12 weeks. No matter what you believe about second chances, it’s virtually impossible to believe someone could earn one in under three months. It would be one thing for the Blue Jays to give Osuna an opportunity to grow. They already employed him. The Astros went out of their way to pick Osuna up, even having the gall to cite a zero-tolerance policy that obviously doesn’t apply to someone who wasn’t yet wearing the uniform.
What makes it all the more, I don’t know, cavalier is that the Astros didn’t have to do this. The Astros didn’t face a decision between Osuna and no one. The trade market has been overflowing with relievers. It still is! Maybe none of those relievers are exactly on the same level as Osuna, but some of them come awfully close, and none of them are currently serving out a domestic-violence suspension. The Astros could trade for, say, Kelvin Herrera. They could’ve traded for Joakim Soria or Zach Britton. They could’ve paid for Brad Hand. They could get Ryan Tepera or Kirby Yates or Craig Stammen or so on and so forth. The whole industry figured the Jeurys Familia return was too cheap. Where were the Astros on that one? (Note that Familia was also suspended under the domestic-violence policy in 2017, for 15 games.) Osuna, the pitcher, is very good, assuming he is what he was. He is not the only very good reliever. And, frankly, the Astros already had plenty of good relievers anyhow. This is something the Astros sought out. They know full well that Osuna’s suspended for dreadful behavior, and by getting him now, the message is that winning trumps everything else. Even for a team with genuinely the least reason to be desperate to win.
I’ve seen it argued the Astros had to do anything they could to be rid of Giles. Giles has been pitching in Triple-A, thanks to a couple of major-league blow-ups. Especially after the way the playoffs went last year, it seemed like it was time for both parties to split, but I know for a fact this wasn’t the only Giles trade available. The Astros had the chance to trade Giles in a different move, for different talent. They opted for Osuna, and they gave still more pitching up. Not that it would be a good justification anyway, but you can’t even say the Astros are paying pennies on the dollar. Giles, for all his troubles, has 31 strikeouts and three walks this year in 30.2 big-league innings. Paulino is a 24-year-old former good prospect with a big arm and high-minors strikeouts. Perez was rated the Astros’ No. 5 prospect in February, and he’s a 22-year-old who’s trimmed his walk rates. The Blue Jays come out of this looking pretty good — maybe they didn’t get to trade a player at peak value, but in return for a credibly accused abuser still serving a suspension, they got three pitchers who could reach the bigs in short order. Osuna has a career ERA- of 67, and an FIP- of 62. Giles has a career ERA- of 67, and an FIP- of 54.
You get into weird and muddy territory when you start talking about which major-league organizations might occupy the moral high ground. None of them are charities; none of them are beyond reproach. These are businesses, making business decisions, and just as the Blue Jays made the business decision they’ll be better off without Osuna, the Astros made the business decision they’ll be better off with him. Honestly, I assume they’re right. Osuna helps the bullpen. The bullpen helps the team. Many fans don’t want to think about anything beyond the basics. They see sports as an entertaining distraction from everything else. You’re happy about wins and you’re annoyed about losses. It’s never any more complicated than that.
For the fans for whom it is more complicated, the Astros today have scored an own goal. They made a trade they didn’t need to make for a player still looking ahead to a court date. The Astros know exactly what they’re doing. That’s kind of what makes this so difficult to stomach.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.
A racist first baseman and now a closer who assaults women. From a fan perspective I’ll be neutral in the playoffs… but it’s hard not to root against the Astros when they play. How do you sit there with your kids and explain this stuff?
I would suggest you explain to your kids that they are just baseball players not superheros and they make the same mistakes as everyone else and they shouldn’t be defined by their mistakes but perhaps what they took out of it, I’m suggesting that parents actually do the parenting of their children and allow athletes to play the games.
That’s… really poor parenting. Assaulting a domestic partner isn’t just some “mistake” that you can brush off, which is what young kids would equate that word to.
See and this is whats wrong with the internet, you take a simple word in a statement remove all the context and then chastise a person based on that.
You just told me that its bad parenting to teach your children forgiveness and that its bad to suggest that athletes aren’t hero’s, I’m a bad parent for being a parent. It wasn’t a simple mistake and I didn’t at all word it that way, would it make you feel better if I had added the word gross in front of mistake or horrendous or disgusting? Pick your favorite adjective and I would agree, it’s bad parenting to teach your children that a person is defined only by that (fav adjective) mistake.
Quote: “they make the same mistakes as everyone else”: implies that Osuna’s apparent behavior is no worse than what everyone else does.
Explaining domestic abuse as a “mistake” is not good. Explaining that people have a public, private, and inner life are certainly topics children should learn. Heck, even in early grade school they’re going to start noticing that their friends do not always act the same way with the same people. If you’ve ever ever had to explain to a crying child why their best friend suddenly turned mean on them then explaining that professional athletes are not always great and inspirational people is easy.
Honestly, I often think that people going “How can I ever explain this to my child!?!?!” are usually childless and just acting like Helen Lovejoy. I mean, if you can’t manage the tee-ball-level challenge of “famous person acted horribly” then you’re going to really have a hard time when the stakes get ratcheted up.
@abgb123 — Well, it’s not like he just cherry-picked your use of the word “mistake” completely out of context.
You refer to assaulting a loved one as a “mistake” – it’s quite a bit more than a mere mistake. I’ve made mistakes in my life, and I’ve gotten very angry, but I’ve also managed to never physically attack any of my loved ones. I’d say that’s pretty normal for most people. Characterizing that behavior as a mere “mistake” downplays just how serious and dysfunctional it really is.
You say a person shouldn’t be defined by their mistakes. Ever? What if a person makes the same “mistake” over and over? What if their “mistake” was killing a bunch of people? Is there some point where you really should define a person by these “mistakes”?
You say that people should tell their children athletes are people who make mistakes, and say that parents should allow athletes to pay the games. See this strikes me as the rationalizing of someone who wants their team to win, and wants to turn a blind eye, tacitly condoning anything it takes to make that happen.
Until his arrest Roberto Osuna was one of my favorite players, and I have really struggled with my feelings about him since. At the end of the day, I have to say that I feel better about him no longer being a part of the Blue Jays.
Ok I was going to just walk away from this but apparently you need some help because you read 1 thing and ignored the rest.
For starter you couldn’t be more wrong, I said mistake because I didn’t want to address what he did because I don’t know any facts, for all I know he could go to court on Wednesday and have all charges dropped (I don’t believe this to be the case), but I don’t know any facts and I also haven’t see any factual releases, hard to form an opinion on his actions when I don’t know what they were.
I said people “shouldn’t be defined by their mistakes but perhaps what they took out of it”, I suppose I should have said “solely by there mistakes” meaning people are capable of redemption, are you people not capable of inferring from context? As for when they should be defined by their mistakes? I don’t know, who does? I believe they call that a tipping point, eventually someone does something so much or so often they become defined by it, so it was a really really bad horrifically, disgusting mistake and if he did it again that would be enough for me to define him by it but I have a hard time doing it without more information.
As for your “fan rational” bs, I’m a Jays fan, Osuna is a loss both today and for the future (although I’m happily surprised by the return) so no this isn’t the rational of a fan that just wants to win, so get your ears checked if that’s what your hearing.
You could just say “crime” or “felony” instead of mistake and then you’re good.
Or, you could just say “I don’t believe women when they accuse men of assault unless a court agrees with them first. I’m too distant from the situation to assume the woman would have a desire to tell the truth about a situation, but instead assume there’s an equal possibility that she’s seeking personal gain by lying.”
The problem is a “mistake” is forgetting to pick up milk from the store, and assaulting another human is a criminal offense, and the language you used is part of a culture of apologist men.
Do you, but do it honestly. That’s why people keep coming at you here. You can’t have it both ways bro.
abgb123: It’s time to walk away from this argument, as the internet mob has spoken. Its members will question your parenting, question your honesty, and claim, cynically, that you condone the bad behavior in question if you don’t denounce it clearly and stridently enough to appease them.
And Gawd forbid you dare to admit that you teach your children mercy and forgiveness. Good on you for teaching your children mercy and forgiveness, but don’t try to justify that to the internet mob. The internet mob has no use for mercy and forgiveness.
So…the way to teach mercy and forgiveness is to forgive someone still currently serving a domestic violence suspension? Seems a bit of a false dichotomy there. Forgiveness is earned over time.
Frankly, I don’t know why you didn’t just insta-forgive everyone who is so wrong about you. They’re just making mistakes like everybody else. You should be cheering for them.
Is…is domestic violence “the same mistake everyone else” makes? Who are you hanging out with?
Welcome to Sheryl Rings world Mr. Sullivan.
100% this and as a father of a young daughter who is a baseball fan its doubly hard
I would say if you’re a neutral fan then you can certainly root against teams with player(s) you feel are morally reprehensible.
However it is one of those things where you probably end up realizing there are problem players with many teams who you can’t “explain” this stuff to your kids. I think in the end, it really is better to have kids understand the difference between a player vs. person. Because honestly most of the athletes your kids idolize have a side you don’t want them to know about.
“How do you sit there with your kids and explain this stuff?”
Dad: Okay kid, you’re going to hear about something which might be pretty upsetting… I need to you take a seat.
Daughter: Yes dad?
Dad: Remember a little while ago when you asked about that pitcher in Toronto who did a really bad thing and hurt someone he shouldn’t have?
Daughter: Yes…
Dad: Well, the Astros went out and acquired him.
Daughter: What? Why?
Dad: I could tell you all sorts of crap about forgiveness, redemption, winning, and the business of professional sports, but I’m not. It is a bad look for a team I have rooted for most of my life and you for all of yours. I’d have preferred they didn’t make the trade, but I wasn’t consulted. I have rooted for the Astros throughout thick and thin and this will not be the straw that brakes the camel’s back after going through multiple 100 loss seasons. I might pass on attending some games, I might rethink some non WS 2018 Champion merch, and I might not be too upset if he blows some leads as long as they still win the game. But that is me rationalizing a decision I know I wouldn’t support were someone else doing it. And I’m okay with this little slice of hypocrisy in my life; it’s not the worst thing I’ve ever done.
Daughter: But dad, you said he did a really bad thing. Someone no one should do.
Dad: I know, but I was counting on the Astros doing the right thing; they did cut Julio Lugo afterall. But, just because I’m a flawed person who isn’t going to live up to his aspirational morality doesn’t mean you need to. If you want to root for another team, please do so. Check them out, we have MLB TV after all. I’d suggest giving the Yankees a pass for a couple years, at least until Chapman moves on. I’ll support you and if you decide to root for another team, or even give up on baseball as a fan because of this, I’ll never stop loving and caring for you.
Daughter: Okay dad… who did they trade to get this guy?
Dad: Giles.
Daughter: No loss then
Dad: Yup. Also, if you decide to root for the Rangers I’m cashing out your 529 plan.
Great last line.
My kid could grow up to be Republican, Democrat, a Bernie-Bro, Trumpkin, fundie religious nutjob, or the most triggerable lib who deserves to get all the being owned. Straight, LGBTQIA, some car-loving dragonkin, animal spirit, doesn’t matter. I will love them and support them all the same.
If they root for the Cowboys I will disown them.
“there are a lot of terrible people on the world and not all of them get what they deserve and it’s wise to be careful about being so sure about what they do deserve. Instead of getting too stewed up about it, you just do your best not to be one of them. Also, try not to put too much faith in people whose primary skill or only is playing a sport.”
If my son internalized that I would call it a good day’s work.
Exactly, this is like second semester of freshman year at college level parenting challenges. I mean, it’s not easy, and if you haven’t done your homework you’re going to struggle. But if you have put any effort into the preceding classes you’re going to do fine.
what does osuna deserve in this situation?
“what does osuna deserve in this situation?”
What everyone deserves: a second chance.
He deserves way more than a second chance. He deserve jail time if he’s guilty. He deserves to repay society for the bad he did. He deserves to be deported back in Mexico if he’s guilty.
A second chance…..he can earn it… but deserve it….i’ll reserve my judgement on that
Absolutely nothing. He’s fortunate to be still playing the game he loves, earning a salary most of us can only dream of.
It’s not that he *doesn’t* deserve a second chance – I’m not a GM who has the power to make that decision – but now that he’s got one hopefully he uses it wisely and changes for the better.
Honestly – I can’t find many details on what’s been alleged, beyond just a ‘domestic incident’, so how can I say? I mean, did he push someone? Did he hospitalize someone? I hope he has his day in court and is prosecuted to the fullest degree possible in light of whatever he’s alleged to have done, and that’s about all I can say with the information I have.
The question of whether or not he plays baseball in the meantime or afterward, or for whom, is much, much less important to me than that the justice system has its say. This may be an unpopular opinion in today’s “express outrage and get details later (if ever)” culture, but…
This is what I’m trying to find out. There’s no details on this. Passan’s Yahoo! article mentions the incident and links to the report from when news broke that included no details. Then, after that, he refers to “pictures” and “stories police officers are still telling” without any link to this. People jumped on Chapman, even when the story had some logical holes. This story doesn’t even really seem to exist (in terms of available information), and people are even heavier with the hot takes.
“How do I explain this to my kids” is becoming he modern day version of “Won’t someone think of the CHIDLREN!?”
I mean my goodness, there are people who do good things and there are people who do bad things. How do you explain the NFL to your kid or the rap community or Hollywood? Why suddenly does it now “not compute” that someone on an MLB team did something awful?
Tell them “That guy did really bad stuff and he got in trouble for it. Don’t ever do bad stuff to anyone okay?” and move on with your life. If you don’t yet know how to tell your kid that bad things do happen in this world, you probably should just not let them watch TV at all.
“How do I explain this to my kids”
This was used 20 years ago as justification for why gay marriage or other morality laws targeting LGBT people were tolerable. “How could I ever explain to my kids that two men were kissing!?!?!” I’m sure there were op/eds along those lines back when Kirk kissed Uhura.
People hide behind their kids all the time when it comes to explaining things that bother the person.
“You can support the team or not support the team, but I certainly won’t and hope you’ll never support an abuser. While I hope he turns his life around and becomes a better person, you can never compromise on accountability. Maybe it would be best for him to be ineligible. Either way, we may find ourselves rooting for wins, on the back of his contributions. I wish they didn’t do this, but this puts us in a conflicted position, so I totally understand if you don’t want to support them. The only thing we can really do is never put ourselves in that man’s position and do what we can to prevent abuse and support victims.”
What’s more racist?
A) A hand-motion that Yuli Gurriel did while saying he normally doesn’t hit Asian pitchers well. (NOTE: Nothing derogatory said.)
B) Showing such a lack of understanding for Yuli Gurriel’s culture so as to not understand there was no ill intent behind his gesture?
Or C) Refusing to admit that the slanted eye gesture, to an Asian American like myself is a middle finger to my entire race?
It was not innocuous. Yes, he may have mistaken (which is retarded given he actually effin played in Japan) but IMO the Houstonians defending his actions are worse than the “mistake”
You guys are willfully ignoring this. I sincerely hope every ill befalls everyone who stood up to give him the standing ovation during the WS
You seriously use the word “retarded” in a derogatory fashion while simultaneously claiming to be a victim of offensive speech?
And then you speak of ignorance of the other commenters?
And then you hope for bad things to happen to Gurriel’s fans?
I don’t think you’re being part of a solution at all.
Great article, Jeff. The Astros are following in the precedent the Yankees set – profiting on the field by acquiring someone another team feels ethically inclined to dump. And as wrong and f’d up as I think it all is, the sad part of it is that the Astros gamble will work. We’re less than three years removed from the Yankees acquiring Chapman, and already no one points out that the only reason they have Gleyber Torres is because they were willing to buy low on a domestic abuser. If they win a few rings while he’s under team control, it’ll be a minor footnote on that history.
The winning-over-everything culture has infected baseball to the core. And the shittiest part is that I honestly don’t see a solution. No one will pat the Blue Jays on the back for not wanting to be in business with Osuna, just like no one right now is patting the Reds on the back for dumping Chapman when they did.
Reds were planning to trade Chapman before the incident became public.
If any team deserves credit, it is the Dodgers who backed out of an agreement.
All the more so when Chapman being on the Dodgers instead of the Cubs could have brought them a WS. Dodgers could have had Chapman and Jansen in their primes instead of having to face Chapman.
The Cubs also deserve criticism for picking him up that season and that WS is tainted.
The Yankees brand and the Chapman brand, blinds the reality of the situation. Very sad, when a name like Chapman… who could have really been made an example of could have made a huge difference.
A season long suspension of both Chapman and Osuna, I think was warranted.
I also think a lot of that has to do with how the Chapman situation turned out, where he had a lot of witnesses who corroborated his testimony. His wife, being the only one with multiple, conflicting testimonies, ended up changing her account (to match all the others). In the end, it was the MLB that proactively (and wisely) suspended him, but it ended there.
Osuna got a MUCH longer suspension and didn’t contest the charges. Upon interviewing the victim, MLB decided that such a lengthy suspension was warranted. The trial is today, and no one knows how that will ultimately be resolved; he may very well end up in jail. This whole case is ongoing and may keep going.
One thing that I find extremely bothersome is that these suspended players are allowed to rehab in the minors. Why are they allowed on the field, at all, if they are being disciplined? Regardless of how circumspect MLB is being, a suspended player is a suspended player: it doesn’t make sense to me.
Is Osuna eligible for the postseason? Or is that ban only for PEDs?
MLB could easily put a stop to these deals by barring players from the post-season when suspended for DV during the season.
He is eligible for the postseason, however, he is scheduled to report to court on Wednesday and will plead not guilty (despite not appealing his suspension and saying he was remorseful for his actions). A conviction and subsequent jail time, could, of course affect his ability to participate in future games. Also, if MLB is made aware of new information regarding this incident or other incidents he could be subject to further discipline.
Also might effect his visa situation…
Its all but a given, it will be dropped. Either way, this is a move for 2019 and 2020…
Sheryl Ring wrote an article discussing this. The short answer is yes, he’s available to pitch in the postseason, unlike if he had been suspended for PEDs, and yes that is pretty messed up.
Can we please do away with this logic of comparing PED suspensions to suspensions for behavior? It’s a sport. People watch it because they believe it to be an inherently fair competition between participants. Of course the sport’s governing body is going to punish people who violate that more harshly than they will most other behaviors. If I go to a legal sports book and place a bet on the Reds to win absolutely nothing will happen to me. If you do this as a baseball player you’re going to get suspended or banned. MLB treats PED violations more seriously because violations of the PED policy impact MLB’s integrity as a sport. A player beating the tar out of his intimate partner doesn’t put the result of the game itself in question.
“MLB treats PED violations more seriously because violations of the PED policy impact MLB’s integrity as a sport.” That’s a choice they are making though
To some people, the PED usage is much less important than the character of the men these team’s are willing to give millions of dollars to. I couldn’t give a fuck if a player cheats in every way possible to win my favorite team games (that doesn’t involve injuring opposing players). He’s literally paid money to win my favorite team games. I find it extremely disappointing when management decides part of the money I paid they to watch the game should go to a person who’s done things I morally disagree with.
I understand that a team will always weigh the feelings of it’s different fan groups and make imperfect decisions based on what will make the most people happy/fewest people mad and that this means sometimes I’m going to disagree with their choices. But the reason the MLB policy is harder on PED usage is because that policy was drafted during a PR nightmare related to PED usage. They’re now in the midst of repeated, smaller PR nightmares relating to domestic abuse by players. It’s entirely possible these bans could change in the future, because both affect the fan perception of the sport, which is the only thing that actually matters.
“I find it extremely disappointing when management decides part of the money I paid they to watch the game should go to a person who’s done things I morally disagree with.”
So why even bother watching the game. I GUARANTEE you that your favorite team is paying large amounts of money to people who have done a lot of things you morally disagree with. I don’t know what your moral hot-button issues are, but you do know that your MLB-spending has gone towards people who take the opposite side on that issue right?
Also, is this a PR nightmare? MLB has a policy in place where an offender can get 1/3 to 1/2 of a season suspension upon their arrest. The NFL had a PR nightmare because they slapped Ray Rice on the wrist, then an awful video came out, Roger Goddel denied he knew about the video, they increased Rice’s suspension, and it came out the NFL knew about and had seen the video. Oh, and the Ravens and the NFL wound up having to pay Rice several million dollars after they were sued by him for how they handled his suspension. THAT is a PR nightmare.
Eh, this isn’t as messed up as made out to be. MLB has sole responsibility for policing the game in terms of a level playing field, while punishing people for D.V. incidents is not really MLB’s job, it’s the justice system’s. Anything MLB does is on top of civil/criminal penalties already in place, and I like the idea of being very cautious about setting a precedent that its MLB’s job to augment our justice system as they (or by extension the people egging them into being more activist) see fit. The NFL went down this rabbit hole and it never ends.
Astros took advantage of a market inefficiency – I’m looking solely at roster building so apologies for the cold terminology given the allegations. But Toronto clearly had their hands tied being owned by a media conglomerate who’s image in Canada is more important than winning baseball games.
Typically the trade market is unadulterated free market capitalism at its best. This feels much different and the Astros basically just paid 25 cents for a dollar.
My question for the Jays is why not wait until the off-season? Ownership clearly said he needs to be gone yesterday and left no wiggle room for Shapiro and company.
thing is, i dont see anyone saying the Jays got .25 on the dollar here. maybe if the Osuna in question was the non-baggage-laden version. but then if Giles were the productive, non-baggage-laden version too the calculus would also be different.
You guys can down vote him all you want, but he is right. The reality with society is, no one will care if he helps win ball games. Its sad, buts it true.
This is people trying to care and make things right. Shit gets better over time. Don’t fight it.
This would only make sense if the Astros were the only team with less of an image-conscious philosophy. That is obviously false. I know it is unlikely, but Osuna currently faces real legal trouble that could (but probably won’t) do a lot more harm to his career.
Nothing about baseball is “free market capitalism.” Teams have publicly-financed stadiums and an antitrust exemption. They’ve been excused from all the hard parts of capitalism because people love baseball so much.
Given that, it’s pretty reasonable to ask that teams occasionally put decency above making money.
Then all of those things you list are a part of the ‘free market’s.
Jeff said what I think about the Astros’ side of this pretty well. I’ve been baffled by the Astros’ complete indifference to Kelvin Herrera, among others. Osuna is awfully good, but with the other alternatives, is he that good that you’re willing to give up that much for a guy with that much baggage, who hasn’t played in half a season, and still is working his way through the legal system north of the border? They really went out of their way on this.
That said, I’m not enthused about the Blue Jays’ return on this, not because of overall talent (it’s an excellent return on overall talent) but because it’s become really clear between this and the JA Happ trade that they’re going to keep stringing along barely .500 seasons rather than try and get long-term controllable pieces. I agree pretty strongly with the article Travis wrote that the Blue Jays should be loading up for their core coming up around 2020, and it’s pretty clear the Blue Jays don’t see it that way. It’s only a good trade if the Blue Jays couldn’t get prospect talent out of the Astros or another team instead (although they more I think about it, I think it’s likely they couldn’t).
The best case scenario is they fix Ken Giles and Brandon Drury and flip them next trade deadline, but it’s hard to see.
I think your last paragraph is the key. You can’t get value for peak Osuna right now, but if you fix Giles, you can get pretty good value for him back. Perhaps even more for him at that point than you could for Osuna now, even though Osuna would come with more service. And if you do that, then you’re building for the 2020 core.
If they can fix Giles they don’t have to move him. They’re not far from respectability, given their next wave (Vladdie, et al) is cresting. Plus Toronto has deep pockets. Maybe they use him instead of flipping him.
Thing is, I actually like the return the Jays got on this, but it makes more sense if you’re actually thinking you can compete in 2019. There’s no guarantee they can fix Giles, although I think for a team like the Nationals it would be worth the risk. Because even if you fix him, there’s no guarantee they’ll be able to flip him.
As for the other pieces, Paulino is probably (literally) broken as a starter, but maybe there’s a useful reliever somewhere in there. Perez, on the other hand, looks like a future closer or maybe even a mid-rotation starter in there. I think the whole thing would have been better had they gotten a better piece than Paulino, like Celestino (who went to the Twins in the Pressly deal) or Josh James or Bukauskas (although he’s not Rule 5 eligible for a while).
” Osuna’s controlled another two years after this one.”
Im not 100% sure, but I think Osuna might be controlled for three years after this. He had 3.000 years of service time prior to this year so if suspended games don’t count towards service time he’ll finish with around 3.080 days of service time. But I may be wrong.
Not wrong.
The suspension moved his FA back a year.
omfg yet another unintended consequence that inflates his “trade chip attractiveness” or whatever grossly cold term applies.
Not to make an obvious point, but win at any cost is a mentality that pervades pretty much all sports, from big-time college to professional. How many times have we heard something like “the young man understands he made mistakes”? These are multi-billion dollar businesses, and what most fans care about is winning. They might rather win with a good guy than a bum, but, they would also rather win with a bum than lose with a good guy. MLB can’t shun Osuna–he will have done his time by August 4 and has a right to get back on the field. Let him be throughly booed, but I’m not sure there’s much more that can be done.
Baseball did effectively blackball Barry Bonds when he was still a useful player. There’s a line somewhere.
Yes, they did, and for purely business reasons.
30 teams deciding that the juice is not worth the squeeze is not blackballing. His usefulness did not make up for his baggage. Pretty simple.
“Baseball did effectively blackball Barry Bonds when he was still a useful player. There’s a line somewhere.”
Massive premeditated deliberate cheating and being a complete jerk to everyone?
Win at any cost is a mentality that pervades pretty much everywhere.
I would like some clarity over Houston’s zero-tolerance policy. Does that only apply to their players when they aren’t actually wearing an Astros’ uniform?
I am very much against hitting women.
“I am very much against hitting women.”
Me too, so long as the woman doesn’t initiate the hitting. Equality means that a man gets to hit back if hit first.
My good god, no it does not. Equality has nothing to do with two people assaulting each other…it’s just assault either way.
Reportedly the Jays had made the decision that Osuna would never pitch for them again and wanted to get rid of him as soon as possible at whatever price they could get.
As much scorn as the Astros deserve the Jays deserve an equal amount of credit for actually being humans before a baseball team.
(Of course that stance is easier to take when you suck too)
While it is a romantic notion that the Jays made the decision to jettison Osuna out of moral superiority, I suspect they made the decision they did NOT because their management are superior human beings or because they prioritize human beings and morality over winning, but for the exact same reason that the Astros made the decision they did: they measured the economic consequences and came to the conclusion that this made sense for them.
The Jays’ economic calculus starts with the team being owned by a media conglomerate, and the overall economic utility of continuing to employ Osuna was negative (because the lost economic utility due to a certain percentage of people refusing to use the conglomerate members’ services because of the stigma of employing a domestic violence perpetrator would outweigh any economic utility of his contribution to winning).
The Astros, on the other hand, measured their economic consequences, and determined that, because its ownership’s outside business interests involve a private equity fund company that is not subject to any public boycotting, the economic utility of Osuna’s contributions on the baseball field will outweigh any lost economic utility from fans refusing to attend games and buy merchandise.
That is entirely possible, even likely. but the Jays and Rogers also have a bit of a history of not putting up with stuff like this.
Yunel Escobar was shipped out like 60 days after he got the bright idea to write a homophobic slur on his eye black. Greg Zaun was turfed pretty much instantly from his analyst job (thank god, he was so bad) when his inappropriate behavior came to light.
I’m not so naive as to think that simple PR reasons was not the major factor behind these decisions but I also dont think that it was the only reason either. I think there are people in the org who genuinely dont want to employ people like Osuna. And at least they are doing something even if it is mostly for their own interests.
(Judging by the reactions of Jays fans I also think the Jays could have kept Osuna pretty easily with very little backlash.)
What bugs me the most is everyone’s moral judgement on things they only gather through hearsay.
I guess the moralist writer and moralist commenters must believe that if a 23 year old kid makes a mistake and slaps another woman, that suddenly he should be denied employment until the end of his life.
If you or your neighbor beat your wife up, more than likely you would need to work again in your life to be able to pay the bills and serve the community.
This would be impossible if you right to work again (and repent, and learn) is now suddenly denied by people who have never met you, never talked to you, and pass judgment on your entire life.
It’s silly that we have to say that most people who are truly moral abhor this type of behavior. It’s horrible. Undeniable. There are all kinds of terrible and shitty things human do, seen and unseen.
I’m not even a religious person, but I think a whole lot of you have a problem with forgiveness and snap judgements.
Dude has a BETTER job now. Because(!) of his domestic violence charge.
How you whining about people losing their livelihood?
No one lost a job.
No author or commenter has said Osuna deserves to lose his job.
Who exactly are you arguing against?
“I’m not even a religious person, but I think a whole lot of you have a problem with forgiveness and snap judgements.”
I have posted this here many times before. It’s true and those here without forgiveness will downvote you all day long for pointing it out.
Plus a number of those posters aren’t utterly unforgiving, they are just virtue signallers.
Forgiveness is something you give to people who’ve wronged you. The only person who can forgive Osuna is his victim.
“Forgiveness is something you give to people who’ve wronged you. The only person who can forgive Osuna is his victim.”
Horsecrap. Forgiveness is not limited to only the victim, even though that does seem to be the case around here.
So the Astros may have got a discount on Osuna because of the domestic violence cloud? This seems like a potentially shrewd move for the Astros that plays to upside. The moralizing is not the only commentary here
Nor was it the only commentary in the article.
The Astros have seen that the negative consequences from employing someone involved in domestic violence is almost nil – Aroldis Chapman, Jeurys Familia, Jose Reyes, and others continue to be employed with nary a ripple in the fabric of the baseball and non-baseball universe … for the most part, it is all but forgotten that any of them were ever even involved in domestic violence (and certainly hardly ever mentioned by anyone involved in baseball because it is bad for business).
It is not just baseball, of course. Joe Mixon, for instance, was drafted by the Bengals last year and navigated his way through his rookie season without any major ruckus being raised, and will probably be their starting RB this year … and again, noone involved in the NFL will mention what he did during broadcasts or otherwise because it is bad for business (and if you have seen the video of what he did to a woman, it is pretty despicable).
Maybe wait to write the articles until more of the story comes to light (Keith Law) Wednesday. Still that story could get even worse, and result in the Astros facing so much backlash, they end up cutting him.
Paulino really was the the last guy on the 40 man potentially. He was going to get moved or tried to be snuck through waivers. Many pitchers have passed him up, in the Astros system.
I’m not sure Jeurys Familia as an alternative to Osuna is all that morally upstanding either. Apparently MLB thinks that his situation is less serious, since his suspension was a lot shorter, but he’s tainted too for me. I’d rather the A’s would have picked up Joakim Soria instead.
It is not at all clear to me that MLB really thinks Familia’s situation is less serious than Osuna’s. There are a number of factors involved in MLB’s calculus in determining suspension length, and call me a cynic, but I believe a major factor is how much time has passed since the episode(s) of domestic violence – from a PR perspective the less time that has passed since the incident(s), the bigger the risk that MLB will appear callous for allowing the player back.
So I believe that Osuna’s event occurring in the middle of the season was a major factor because the investigation necessarily played out while Osuna missed games on administrative leave, whereas Familia’s investigation was conducted primarily in the offseason. Familia was arrested on October 31, 2016 and played his first game after his suspension on April 20, 2017 – almost six months after the incident. Osuna, on the other hand, was arrested on May 8th and is eligible to come back August 5, less than three months from the incident.
Am I the only one suprised at how much TOR got in this deal? For the pressure they were likely under to be rid of Osuna, I don’t think anyone would have faulted them if they had trade him for very little at all.
Giles has his own issues, clearly. But there is plenty of talent there and a couple of years of control. It is absolutely possible that from this day forward, he is more valuable and productive than Osuna.
Giles straight up for Osuna would have been a pretty even change of scenery trade.
The other guys, also, have legitimate shots of being useful MLB pitchers. This is a terrific get for TOR.
The Astros must be very confident that the criminal proceedings are going to proceed favorably for Osuna (and as a consequence, will have minimal PR consequences) to give up that much – I suspect they have had some pretty extensive discussions with Osuna and his lawyers and have learned that a deal has already been reached with the prosecutors, and that at the hearing on Wednesday, that deal will be presented to the court (and is expected to be accepted and entered by the judge). with nothing terribly damning coming out about Osuna publicly.
The Jays had pressure, but they also had 80 days. Osuna’s value was much less, but there are plenty of non-moral reasons for that, including that he is a reliever who missed 80 games and also he could be deported. He could also repeat his offense. People look at Chapman with nothing but hindsight and now think that there was no risk in that move other than PR risk. There definitely was.
I hate the Astros, I hate the Yankees, but I really do think things are being taken a bit out of hand here. As far as I know Chapman wasn’t convicted of anything. Iirc she even recanted her statement. Basically he used a firearm inside his garage, which for some absurd reason is not illegal. While I think what he did is bad, the fact remains he was not convicted of anything. He even got punished…why would we criticize the team that signs him? That seems very stupid. Most states have tax breaks that actually reward businesses for hiring ex-cons , yet we are going to criticize an employer for hiring someone whose merely suspected of a crime?
Osuna probably did what he w as accused of, but lets let the law run its course. If not, why is it there?
“Most states have tax breaks that actually reward businesses for hiring ex-cons , yet we are going to criticize an employer for hiring someone whose merely suspected of a crime?”
Exactly, but you are going to get downvoted for using logic and advocating forgiveness.
You’ve really got the pulse of this place. I for one HATE logic, and don’t even get me started on “advocating forgiveness,” yuck! I mean what is this, ForgivenessGraphs?!
They mean different kinds of felons and they should only be able to get servile jobs where they can reflect on the grave offense they committed against society and show their penance through demanding physical labor.
Not being snide or sarcastic, just asking the obvious question…
What would you want to see happen before offering Osuna a second chance?
By the standards of the league, a firm denial and “I’ll be vindicated.” Plus a firm (hypocritical) condemnation of domestic violence. Followed by some sort of private settlement. No actual repentance required, as demonstrated by the trade.
By not saying anything and letting the full court procedure play out this long he has created the impression that he is both guilty and unrepentant. If he is actually innocent or truly repentant, his advisers have not served him well.
It is past the point where being not-guilty in court will redeem him. The scarlet A of abuser will follow him until he fades from public life. Maybe beyond.
I think there is a couple components here.
One, some passage of time. The idea that in 12 weeks Osuna has gone from someone who felt it was ok to hit their partner to fully understanding deep down why they felt that way, unpacked it and learned coping/adaptive behaviors to employ when that “urge” surfaces that can serve as an alternative. We don’t even know if he has undergone any kind of serious treatment.
Two, a real penalty from the legal system. I forget where I saw it, but someone pulled up statistics of DV cases against athletes and you will shocked to hear almost none of them have gone to jail in circumstances when their non-famous contemporaries often do. To have a second chance, you first have to suffer the consequences of your first. Athletes often do not in any real way (Sans Michael Vick who actually went to jail and thus I think is one of the few players you can point to of actually “Earning” a second chance)
Three, and this is out of his control a bit but have Baseball show it actually cares about this. Ban them from postseason play. I understand the argument that PEDs are more integral to the integrity of the sport but DV is more integral to our integrity as human beings and since human beings make up the sport of baseball and all its rules there is no reason why this can’t be changed.
I would love to see the study that found that athletes received a lesser punishment than their non-famous peers. Osuna is a first time offender, I don’t know Canada’s laws but first time offenders for misdemeanor crimes, even involving intimate partners, very rarely get hammered in court. Assuming it even gets to that point and they don’t plead out or have the charges dropped because the victim refuses to cooperate. The justice system generally doesn’t treat first time participants harshly, and that is what we want.
“What would you want to see happen before offering Osuna a second chance?”
Nothing. He should be pitching.
For matters not relating to the industry (ie off the field matters), I’m not sure I need to see much. I don’t believe its much of an employer’s business what is done outside of the office. I totally understand the argument of the “public persona”, and my only hesitation for those types of exceptions is just where does it end?
If the matter is serious enough, then there should be legal proceedings, and in whatever way they stop the player from working, they should – ie if they’re in jail, they can’t pitch. DV certainly falls under this realm.
Now, you can argue (correctly, in my opinion) that celebrities do not get equal application of the law, and thus will not face the full consequences. To that I’d say, we’ll let’s not stick our fingers in the levy. Let’s address that issue, because its a real problem.
Were any of you struck by how disproportionately Hispanic the list of accused domestic abusers in baseball is? I am not condemning Hispanics or anything, but it is sort of the elephant in the room that nobody seems to want to address.
I was struck by it when Sheryl Ring wrote about the issue about a month ago in relation to, I think, Luke Heinlich; the list of players punished under the MLB DV policy is heavily weighted towards players from Latin America.
What exactly are you asking? There have been so few suspensions, it’s clearly inappropriate to draw conclusions about national origins. Not to mention the fact that Osuna is Mexican, while Chapman is Cuban and Jose Reyes, for example, is Dominican, so it’s awfully broad brush to lump them all in together as Hispanic if you’re trying to reach some cultural conclusion.
It’s likely a weird coincidence because of small samples. Here’s some guys who allegedly did some awfully violent stuff against women but weren’t necessarily suspended under the DV policy: Luke Heimlich, Derek Norris, Brett Myers, Kirby Puckett, Josh Lueke, Addison Russell, Milton Bradley, Albert Belle
“Were any of you struck by how disproportionately Hispanic the list of accused domestic abusers in baseball is?“
There’s a very real cultural issue here, but everyone is looking right past it because they don’t want to be viewed as racist.
I thought th Astros had a ‘zero tolerance policy’? I guess that only pertains during the first half of the season. #winatallcost
I think this article was well-done.
One comment: I’m pretty sure Osuna is under control for 3 years and not 2. I don’t believe he accrues service time during the suspension.
It’s tough to do but I thought this article struck the right balance between the on-field and off-field stuff. Nice work.
The analytics-driven Astros correctly identified Osuna as a market inefficiency and traded for him. I am reminded of two things:
1. Team tradition. This is the same Houston Astros team who once played Cesar Cedeno in the outfield after he was convicted of the involuntary manslaughter of a woman. Why? Because he was a good baseball player and they didn’t give a damn about the baggage. I was a regular at Astros games at the time, and with a very few exceptions, the Cedeno-cheering fans thought what the Astros had done was fine.
2. Baseball tradition. Leo Durocher once famously said “Walker Cooper, Mize, Marshall, Kerr, Gordon, Thomson. Take a look at them. All nice guys. They’ll finish last. Nice guys. Finish last.” Leo was right, and some people have paid attention. Some haven’t.
Like it or not, the Astros made a trade that winners make and that analytics would tell anyone to make. Are you here to win, or are you here to engage in virtue signaling? It’s up to you, but the Astros are in it to win it.
I love a view of the world that conceives of two and only two moral choices: winning or virtue signaling. And which deputizes Leo Durocher into the argument as a good example.
To clarify, I’m not actually very fond of that view of the world.
“I love a view of the world that conceives of two and only two moral choices: winning or virtue signaling.”
And I would love a world where virtue signalers didn’t constantly try to show their alleged moral superiority. But then I am anything but fond of virtue signalers.
Do you want to win, or do you want to show people how allegedly virtuous you are? It’s up to you. The Astros are in it to win it with Osuna, just like they were decades ago with Cedeño. You want to get beat? Then let your fastidiousness get in the way of assembling the best possible team that you can. Your call.
“You don’t change the world by going and waving signs at people you’ve defined as more evil than you. First of all, the probability that they’re more evil than you is actually quite low.” – Professor Jordan Peterson
1. Hmm…do I want to win, or do I want to constantly try to show my alleged moral superiority? Damn, you got me there. If only there were a third option. I do appreciate your giving me a choice, though.
2. That’s not what “fastidious” means, and considering that it actually means “very attentive to and concerned about accuracy,” it’s one of the funnier words to indignantly misuse.
3. Leo Durocher, Cesar Cedeno, and Professor Jordan Peterson. That’s an impressive list of role models you’ve compiled.
Icebox, you went 0 for 3 and struck out.
1. Trading for Osuna or not trading for Osuna is a binary choice. There is no “third option.”
2. You are the one who doesn’t know what fastidious means. From dictionary.com:
fastidious
[fa-stid-ee-uh?s, fuh-]
ExamplesWord Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective
excessively particular, critical, or demanding; hard to please:
3. You have no idea who my role models are and wouldn’t understand if you did, because your criticism of the very popular Peterson confirms that you are a virtue signaler.
So you struck out on logic, English, and politics. Grab some bench, rookie.
But nice try at signaling all of your faux virtue to your buddies.
MLB needs to change the system so that this isn’t profitable for teams. Should be treated the same as a PED ban. Make Osuna playoff ineligible and this never happens.
Not that this makes what the teams/player did acceptable.
I would agree, if the player was convicted of any wrongdoing.
“I would agree, if the player was convicted of any wrongdoing.”
None of these virtue signalers care about the actual justice system. A rumor is enough for them to demand that someone’s careers be ruined.
Properly, any suspensions or bans should wait until the verdict on the matter has been rendered. But then nothing is proper about extrajudicial vigilantism.
I mean, the Jay’s “profited” off this in the sense that he was (I assume) an IFA signing, and thus was probably acquired for pennies and became worth something. But that’s not really fair to look at in isolation, because the IFA system is based on a broad investment expecting a small percentage of those assets to mature.
Aside from that, they actually got less value than they would have absent DV allegations.
Even if Osuna was playoff ineligible, the trade still would have happened.
The only difference is that the Blue Jays would have gotten a lighter return.
And ‘profitable’ is a weird word to use.
I guarantee you, it would’ve been much more profitable for Blue Jays if they sold a non-DV associated Osuna at this point.
Floyd Mayweather still fights after beating a half dozen women. Craig MacTavish had a great career after killing someone. Ted Kennedy stayed in the Senate after killing someone. Chris Brown and R Kelly still make music that people buy. Mel Gibson still makes movies that people watch. People will watch the next Kevin Spacey film when it is released.
Ultimately, if you’re really good at what you do (and there is no debate that Osuna is really good at what he does), you’ll get a second chance.
The Blue Jays traded Osuna because they are retooling, and the Blue Jays believe the players they got will provide more 2019/2020 value than Osuna would have provided. The Astros acquired Osuna because he will provide more 2018 value than the players they gave up.
The morality aspect of these transactions makes for interesting conversation, but was/is/always will be irrelevant to the underlying decisions. If the Blue Jays were in first place, Osuna would not have been traded.
One thing I find interesting is that much of this is approached from the angle of “we’re willing to give a second chance if that person is good at what they do” rather than using this as an opportunity to contrast how we’re all too often *not* willing to give second chances to others who may not have particularly “useful” skills.
Maybe. But my (admittedly anecdotal) experience in life leads me to believe that most people who screw up in life (up to a felony conviction) get a second chance (or third, or fourth, etc) to contribute to society on the same level they were contributing before the screw up.
There just aren’t websites dedicated to analyzing the performance of, say, HVAC technicians, that debate the morality of allowing a HVAC technician with a domestic violence conviction from ever working in HVAC again.
That’s probably a pretty fair response with regard to the second chance. But I guess it depends on how you define “second chance”. As many criminal records etc will severely diminish the quality of life post-incarceration – in a society in which we are based off the rule of law and paying one’s penalty and being absolved.
“There just aren’t websites dedicated to analyzing the performance of, say, HVAC technicians, that debate the morality of allowing a HVAC technician with a domestic violence conviction from ever working in HVAC again.”
Menial jobs for those who have offended the moral “code” of the virtue signalers is fine with them. They just object to anyone they don’t approve of being allowed to ever do well.
‘One thing I find interesting is that much of this is approached from the angle of “we’re willing to give a second chance if that person is good at what they do” rather than using this as an opportunity to contrast how we’re all too often *not* willing to give second chances to others who may not have particularly “useful” skills.’
Society properly values you by your education, skills, and experience, and so of course someone who is more valuable should get extra chances. But everyone who has paid their dues and/or served their sentence deserves a second chance.
I’m not going to give any hot takes on the judgement side of the story, because frankly, I can’t seem to find any details of what actually happened.
What I will say though, is that there is a major point that people are ignoring – whether intentionally or not – from a socioeconomic realm. The Blue Jays traded him because they’re currently bad. Sure, they probably wanted to disassociate with him, which helped push that along, but they’re in a full rebuild. In all likelihood, he would have been dealt regardless. So let’s work with that assumption for a moment.
Free of the allegations of abuse (and suspension, etc) Osuna’s value would have no doubt been higher (obviously, aside from a performance collapse…but the reasonable assumption is he would continue performance in line with history). It is our moral judgement, as a society that has driven Osuna’s price down. There’s the internal pressure, from GM’s that are members of our moral society that are not willing to part with the same amount of talent to bring in someone of questionable judgement (argue about the floor of this all you want, but it doesn’t change the truth of the situation). There’s also the external pressure we as non-GMs in the moral society put on these teams – to think HOU is surprised by the pushback would be insane, so they’re weighing incentives themselves.
In the end, this specific economic system penalized the Blue Jays for not sufficiently vetting the character of their employees (in this case player, specifically). If you want to say that you don’t believe this incentive system to be strong enough, that’s fine. But there is an incentive system within this – defined by us as a moral society, and not by the MLB – that had an impact and a negative one at that upon decision makers within the game.
A little bit of history about the Houston Astros and their players and violence against women:
https://www.nytimes.com/1974/01/16/archives/cedeno-gets-fine-of-100.html
Yes, that is correct. She died, and Cedeño got fined $100. The Astros GM even showed up to support him.
Osuna, pardon the expression, isn’t even in the same ballpark.
LOL, even factual history gets downvoted by virtue signalers!
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