Avisail Garcia, Dayan Viciedo, and Giving Up on Potential
The Chicago White Sox have had an interesting offseason. Even if you share Jeff’s view that they aren’t yet a very good team, you can’t deny that they made some nice additions this winter. The Sox added Melky Cabrera, David Robertson, Zach Duke, Adam LaRoche, Jeff Samardzija, and Emilio Bonifacio to a roster that included superstars like Chris Sale and Jose Abreu and very good players Adam Eaton and Jose Quintana.
The problem for the White Sox, of course, is all of those nice additions were replacing talent vacancies. As Jeff noted, the Sox got better but becoming Wild Card contenders or challenging the Tigers for division supremacy was a tall order given where they started. Even after the spending spree, they have serious issues behind the plate, at second base, at third base, in right field, and at the back end of the rotation.
It’s a roster that’s moving in a good direction, but it’s still pretty rare to see teams with that many serious holes make a legitimate playoff push. There’s no doubt the Sox are working to build a winner in the relatively near future. You don’t have the winter they had without a focus on the next one to three seasons, which naturally seems to hinge on Avisail Garcia in the short term to some degree.
Garcia, in his age 24 season, is in line to be the primary right fielder on the south side with fewer than 500 career plate appearances to his name, but with plenty of scouting reports dripping with reports of his athletic potential. He was involved in the Jake Peavy–Jose Iglesias trade in 2013 and if not for an injury last year, we might have a slightly better idea where his development stands.
This time of year is all about projections. Most of the important free agents have signed. The big trades are likely done. It’s extension season then it’s Spring Training ephemera, and then we can start to talk about the games. For now, most of what we’re doing is trying to figure out what kind of year everyone is going to have. Sometimes that means projection systems like Steamer or ZiPS, but it can be as simple as you opening up a player page, recalling the times you observed them last year, and making an internal estimate.
Projecting is just a matter of determining what you think is going to happen. Some projections rely on raw data and some are emotional, but we’re all making projections all the time. At FanGraphs, we recently started hosting FAN projections that allow readers to log their expectations for the upcoming year and I’ve been very interested in the results.
Avisail Garcia is a particularly interesting case because of how favorable his FAN projection compares to his Steamer projection. Right now, among players with at least five FAN projections, Garcia is one of the players whom the fans like a lot more than Steamer for the upcoming year (Keep in mind the FAN projections will update with new votes).
The fans project a .350 wOBA for Garcia in 562 plate appearances while Steamer projects a .318 wOBA in 544 PA. Now, among the 291 players with at least five FAN projections, Steamer projects a .326 wOBA and the fans project a .332 wOBA, so I mentally added six points of wOBA to everyone’s Steamer projection when I compared the numbers. It’s a uniform transformation, so it’s not terribly important and there’s no reason to add to Steamer versus subtracting from FAN.
When you compare the fans and the adjusted Steamer numbers, Garcia has the fourth highest difference between what the fans expect and what Steamer does. George Springer and Kevin Kiermaier beat him by a single point of wOBA. Somehow Dilson Herrera finished in first place by 19 points of wOBA!
There isn’t a prize for where you rank in this index, but the fans like Garcia for 26 extra points of wOBA relative to Steamer, which is a sizable gap (the standard deviation of the difference is 12 points). Obviously, we’re talking about a dozen or so voters in most cases, so we aren’t going to take any of these as gospel, but 26 points of wOBA over a full year is in the neighborhood of a win of difference.
This is all very interesting if you just happen to like playing around with numbers and comparing projections, but there’s something else fascinating at work here. If you invert the list, and look at the players who have the biggest difference in the other direction (i.e. higher Steamer projections than FAN projections), Garcia’s teammate Dayan Viciedo is king.
His adjusted Steamer projection is .328 wOBA in 221 PA and his FAN projection is .290 wOBA in 281 PA. That 38 points difference bests second place Jesus Sucre by seven points. The fans who voted are very bullish on Garcia and extremely negative about Viciedo, even though Steamer considers them fairly equivalent hitters for 2015.
Immediately, you want to talk about age. Garcia is two years younger and he’s a more athletic guy with more impressive scouting reports. The fans are optimistic because they must see something in Garcia’s potential that Steamer is missing.
Let’s compare the two players’ career numbers:
| Name | PA | BB% | K% | ISO | BABIP |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Avisail Garcia | 497 | 5.2 % | 22.7 % | 0.136 | 0.329 |
| Dayan Viciedo | 1798 | 5.3 % | 21.6 % | 0.170 | 0.291 |
| Name | PA | AVG | OBP | SLG | wOBA | wRC+ |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Avisail Garcia | 497 | 0.272 | 0.314 | 0.408 | 0.316 | 97 |
| Dayan Viciedo | 1798 | 0.254 | 0.298 | 0.424 | 0.315 | 95 |
| Name | PA | BsR | Off | Def | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Avisail Garcia | 497 | -0.8 | -2.7 | -20.8 | -0.8 |
| Dayan Viciedo | 1798 | -3.9 | -14.7 | -44.5 | -0.1 |
They are extremely similar, but we have to acknowledge the sample size. So let’s just look at both players through age 23 (where Garcia sits):
| Name | PA | BB% | K% | ISO | BABIP |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Avisail Garcia | 497 | 5.2 % | 22.7 % | 0.136 | 0.329 |
| Dayan Viciedo | 762 | 5.1 % | 22.0 % | 0.173 | 0.302 |
| Name | PA | AVG | OBP | SLG | wOBA | wRC+ |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Avisail Garcia | 497 | 0.272 | 0.314 | 0.408 | 0.316 | 97 |
| Dayan Viciedo | 762 | 0.263 | 0.307 | 0.436 | 0.323 | 99 |
| Name | PA | BsR | Off | Def | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Avisail Garcia | 497 | -0.8 | -2.7 | -20.8 | -0.8 |
| Dayan Viciedo | 762 | -2.1 | -3.3 | -15.1 | 0.7 |
Again, a very similar story. More power for Viciedo, a little more average for Garcia, but the numbers line up. In fact, if you look at their plate discipline from the similarly aged years (21-23), Garcia swings more and makes less contact.
| Name | O-Swing% | Z-Swing% | Swing% | O-Contact% | Z-Contact% | Contact% |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Avisail Garcia | 39.5 % | 76.7 % | 56.5 % | 55.4 % | 79.8 % | 70.6 % |
| Dayan Viciedo | 38.0 % | 64.1 % | 50.2 % | 65.5 % | 82.5 % | 75.7 % |
Garcia seems to have worse plate discipline than Viciedo, less power, and Viciedo’s own history suggests that Garcia isn’t going to suddenly get better at 24 or 25. He obviously could, but the evidence isn’t favoring that projection.
It wouldn’t surprise me at all to learn that the FanGraphs readers who are voting have player-type biases, but it is strange that two nearly identical players from the same team are getting such a wildly different treatment.
The two explanations that come to mind are related. One is age and one is the way we discuss upside in scouting reports. It could be as simple as the fans giving high projections to very young players, but I think it’s more about the way scouting information is communicated and understood by most people.
A good scout (or scouting writer) should discuss a realistic ceiling when telling you about a player. We all know the story about the scout who said Derek Jeter was destined for the Hall of Fame. You want to know what a player will become if everything goes right. Furthermore, good scouts and writers talk a lot about their realistic expectation for the player. Their best guess for what that player will be.
The problem comes in the way the reader interprets those two pieces of information, likely placing far too much weight on the former and not enough on the latter. In one of my other jobs, I cover the Detroit Tigers, the team that originally signed Garcia. The raw ability has been evident forever, but people who cover the Tigers farm system have always been cautious about Garcia’s ability to make contact and lay off bad pitches.
His flaws have always been there, but until a player fails enough at the MLB level, their ceiling is still possible. I think that’s what is driving the Garcia-Viciedo gap. They’re very similar players, but Garcia is young and only has 500 PA to his name, so we haven’t disproved his potential. Viciedo, on the other hand, is about to be 26 and has 1800 MLB plate appearances, which is enough to wipe the optimism from his name.
It is potentially a very interesting phenomenon. There’s a point in time or a number of plate appearances at which the fans will “give up” on a player. It might vary based on a whole lot of factors, but seeing it in practice is a bit jarring. Presumably, you would expect a slow decay of expectations as each additional PA makes you less excited about a player, but the drop off from Garcia to Viciedo this year is remarkable. The fans couldn’t be more excited about Garcia and think Viciedo will hit like Anthony Gose without any of the defense.
The White Sox are hoping the fans are right about Garcia. The difference in projection wouldn’t suddenly make them World Series contenders, but every little bit pushes them toward meaningful September baseball. Unfortunately for the Sox, they’re also in the position of having lived through this same kind of optimism once before without reaping any rewards.
Neil Weinberg is the Site Educator at FanGraphs and can be found writing enthusiastically about the Detroit Tigers at New English D. Follow and interact with him on Twitter @NeilWeinberg44.
Damn. This unmakes my day. Here’s my wallet.
Yikes. However… I think a lot of Sox fans (myself included) are excited about Garcia because he walked a bit in September while cutting down a strike outs. The walks aren’t where they need to be, but if he does have a better command for the strike zone, then we might be looking at a pretty good hitter.
There’s also bias, as he looks like a ball player.
He’s got the good face!
What’s his girlfriend look like?
She’s a six, at best…
And we all know that one month’s worth of plate appearances is totally predictive of future performance and far more important than years of established tendencies.
Good stuff Neil, although I would suggest calling Garcia “more aggressive” rather than saying he has “worse plate discipline,” given that swinging at more pitches within the strike zone is not poor plate discipline. Another difference worth noting is that Viciedo produces significantly more infield fly-balls than average while Garcia produces fewer than average.
This is the flaw with just looking at statistics on a screen. Many people in the baseball stat world look at Avisail’s numbers and make a blanket statement that he won’t perform well. When context is not layered in you don’t get the full picture. Avisail sustained a shoulder injury 30 AB’s into the 2014 season. White Sox head trainer Herm Schneider (considered one of the best in the game) called it a season ending injury. Avi managed to return in mid-August and stunned Rick Hahn and Herm on this recovery and rehab. His numbers in Sept were much improved from August considering he was starting over, and was expected to be a little rusty.
To a typical scout or viewer 2014 was an unfortunate wash for Avi. He had no momentum in his comeback and by the time he got his timing back (essentially a second spring training) the season was over. Yet this article barely highlights his injury. The FAN projections seem to take the context into consideration. Yes they still may be over-hyped, but I would assume the FAN projections also take into consideration the improvements he’s made during this year’s winter ball season in Venezuela (.312 BA, 5 HR, 22 RBI and .528 slug%) and also the fact that reports say he’s dropped 15 pounds in preparation of teh ’15 season. Avi is a case where the FAN projections have done more due diligence compared to computer simulated numbers.
where are you able to find Venezualan League stats?
winter ball stats are available on mlb.com
Garcia stinks.
Actually…
This discussion of ChiSox outfielders in a good time to remind everyone that Mike Trout was taken 1 pick after we selected Jared Mitchell in 2009. Hawk Harrelson and I will now return to weeping into our beers
Even the Angels took an outfielder ahead of Trout in the 2009 draft
teammates no longer
And the Sox just DFA’s Viciedo to sign Beckham.
The disparity in FAN ratings for these two players isn’t surprising. I happen to watch a lot of White Sox baseball, and Viciedo looks lost at the plate almost exclusively. It appears as though he runs into fastballs and muscles them out on occasion. Garcia, being younger, has at least shown flashes of a plan at the plate (i.e. working some counts or taking pitches to the opposite field to drive in runs, etc.). They could very well end up as similar busts, but when you watch Garcia he seems to have a little more potential to become a useful regular right fielder. I personally never saw that with Viciedo.
Between watching him play and now through the data provided in this article, Viciedo appears to be getting worse as he gets older. In the last 1000 PAs he’s dropped his career OPS by 23 points and just about every measure is trending downward. Furthermore he was set to lose significant playing time with the arrival of Melky. (Now that he is DFA’d we have to see where he lands). The point is that Viciedo is heading toward obscurity and Garcia still has upside. I still think the article makes a good point that the fans overemphasize both the decline and the upside, but there is a sound reason why people are not excited about Viciedo.
As a White Sox fan…thanks for ruining my day! He is probably penciled in as the #5 hitter and if the Sox are going to go with 0-1 WAR players at C, 2B, and 3B they are going to need some legitimate production from Garcia if they want to compete for a playoff spot.
I just want to build off of what Brad already pointed out. Of Garcia’s 190 PA’s last year, 150 came after his injury that was supposed to be season ending. I’m not sure how much weight we should give those PA’s. Additionally, I think Neil would be able to comment on this since he covered the Tigers..but how much regular playing time did Garcia get during his time in Detroit? He was extremely young when they brought him up and he was essentially a bench player (platoon player at best) who they trusted enough to give at bats to during significant situations (including the playoffs). And now because of last year’s injury, we really haven’t seen how Garcia performs as a regular starter for more than a month or two at a time.
None of this really argues with Neil’s overall point. In fact, he hit the nail on the head. Garcia is a guy who is difficult to project because we have such little MLB data to go off of.
Why is Tyler Flowers a 0-1 WAR player? Depending on whether you us fWAR or bWAR, he was between 1.8-2.2 last year. Tyler Flowers is a league average catcher, but for some reason many view him as a weakness. Catcher is a weak position in baseball right now, and Flowers is fine.
It looks like Gilaspie might be on the juice, so that bodes well for the White Sox. He’s already put on 20-25 pounds of muscle this off-season. Second base is a question mark, but I hate penciling in 0-1 WAR at a position for the sole reason that the player there is an unknown.
Look at his BABIP and HR/FB rate and you will find your answer. Flowers is not likely to repeat his 1.3 – 1.8 WAR season without some substantial strides forward.
Flowers was a better player in the 2nd half than the 1st half though. I understand reverting to the mean, but apparently Flowers had bad eye-site and didn’t wear glasses while playing. At the All-Star break he made the adjustment and wore goggles/glasses to assist his vision. After the adjustment, he slashed 280/337/553. Does that mean he’s a 890 OPS player now? Very likely not, but clearly it made a difference. Here’s the source on his vision issues:
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/08/05/levine-flowers-flourishes-with-new-vision-of-his-game/
After a game in Boston on July 8, Tyler Flowers was hitting .219/.278/.302 and playing his way to a reduced role, if not out of the White Sox’ future plans entirely.
Then Flowers started fighting that fate. He made a much-documented switch from contact lenses to glasses on July 9 and has since turned things around. He’s hit .390/.438/.695 since that date, including a particularly hot 12-game stretch of slashing .452/.511/.738.
Some things aren’t accounted for via projection systems.
Stories about guys changing their eyewear or getting Lasik surgery are frequently thrown about as reasons to believe in improvement and it almost never comes to fruition. Flowers was just as awful at making contact in the second half as he was in the first, he just had better results with the balls he did manage to hit. That September when he was crushing the ball, he had a walk rate of 2.3% and a strikeout rate of 41.9%.
I don’t disagree with you Bolick, but I do think that enhanced vision may not help you to make more contact, but it could help with the quality of the contact that you make. Obviously we need to see another full season of + production before drawing any conclusions, but the possibility of Flowers being an average MLB catcher is there in my opinion.
Thanks for the write up. When I read the other article about the sox, the rather sedate opinion of A.Gar stuck out at me. In particular, the defensive numbers for him never seemed to make sense. Isn’t it typical that most rookie players tend to improve their defense after the first year or so? Every time I watch Avi play the field, I’ve never seen him really muck anything up in right field. I just can’t wrap my brain around the -20.8 DEF stat, especially given that Viciedo is only listed at -15.1. In Avi’s case, we don’t really have enough data for those numbers to stabilize. But I’m going to go out on a limb and say he’s a better OF than Viciedo by a long shot. Viciedo, the joke goes, was one double-cheeseburger away from being a DH last season.
With some regression towards move average defense, and an every-day job in the lineup, I would take the over on Steamer’s 0.6 WAR projection.
Pure garbage. Garcia suffered a serious shoulder injury, which was considered season ending when it occurred. How would the projections/analysis be if he in fact missed basically the entire season? It’s sort of like bemoaning Melky Cabrera’s defense/production without noting he played a season with a tumor in his back.
Apparently the Sox themselves feel more like the fans as they just DFA’ed Viciedo.
Yes, and I think it’s safe to say that Hahn is a little bit more informed, in tune, and intelligent in regards to the differences between Viciedo and Garcia than Neil. That’s not a shot at Neil – Hahn is one of the smartest minds in the game.
Avasail Garcia costs $0.5M, Viciedo costs $4.4M. Maybe that’s the big difference separating two essentially replacable outfielders?
The more and more I read this article and the comments, the less I understand it.
Viciedo regressed after his first 500 AB’s in the big leagues. He got worse when he was supposed to get better – usually you don’t get worse when you’re entering the prime of your career, and you’ve accumulated 500+ AB’s playing everyday. Viciedo did.
Garcia has barely had a cup of tea in the big leagues. We’re counting last years AB’s, as if they hold some sort of merit (they don’t), when the guy was coming off a major injury. Garcia is far from a finished product, and has a very high ceiling.
Viciedo has already proven, at least so far, that he’s not a good baseball player. Garcia performed well at every level in the minors despite being one of the youngest players at every level. He has a lot of tools that scouts like. Could he bust and not improve? Sure, anyone can. Is it fair to compare him to a 1500+ AB player? Absolutely not. Is it fair to compare them up until their age 23 season? Absolutely not.
If you think the only difference Hahn feels there is between Avisail and Viciedo is money, you just haven’t followed the White Sox all that closely. Hahn sees a very bright future for Avisail – it was the first guy he went out and acquired. These two players aren’t comparable. Their paths to the big leagues have been very different, and Viciedo never missed an entire season due to an injury when he was young.
I don’t think it is pure garbage. I don’t think Neil is saying we have reached a conclusion on Garcia’s potential. But we clearly do have a variance between two projection systems.
I think this is an interesting example of a player that passes the eye test (I mean…he does have the “livest bat since Carlos Delgado” doesn’t he?) so we (perhaps preemptively) reach the conclusion that they should have a productive career. However, when the numbers don’t support that conclusion we should dig in and either figure out what went wrong or what the player does well that perhaps aren’t reflected in the numbers. Right now we clearly have a sample size issue. I think he clearly is better at defense than Viciedo and something is missing in the numbers. However, in order for Garcia to be as productive as the White Sox need him to be he does need to lose some of those Viciedo-like tendencies. Lets follow it this year and see which projection system was more accurate.
The differences between Viciedo and Garcia are significant though – it goes well beyond numbers. For one, Garcia is a + runner, has a + arm, and isn’t a complete train wreck in the outfield. He’s capable of legging out hits, and his power has always been something “that will develop.” Garcia had a lot of success in the minors for being one of the youngest players at each level, and he showed progression through the MiLB season. Viciedo was at his best his first two years in the league, and has only gotten worse since. He has shown no improvement.
Projection systems have never done a great job at predicting a break out performance – or a young player figuring it out. Garcia has flashed tons of talent in his limited playing time, which leads to higher expectations. To call Garcia a finished product is irresponsible and to call Viciedo a project with a high ceiling would also be irresponsible. One has collected enough data, while healthy, to draw conclusions on his projection going forward. The other has 550 MLB AB’s, and 200+ of them took place following a serious injury last year.
He looks very awkward in the outfield to me. And his defensive numbers are really bad. Hopefully his new svelte self will be better in the field, but it looks like a coordination problem to me, for whatever that is worth.
As others have said, the injury return really throws a wrench in to how seriously we should take what we saw last year. One thing I will say is the issue a lot of Sox fans had with Viciedo is the total lack of any kind of progress over 3 full years of opportunity to start, evidenced by things like his nearly identical 5% BB rate. Garcia has only had a couple stretches to play, but as someone mentioned, you could at least see some adjustments made. He played every day the last two months in 2013, and had a 3.0 BB%. In his roughly 1/3 of the season last year, his swing percentage went down a decent tick, and he had a 7.4% BB. Could of course be small sample, but he’s young enough that it could be somewhat of an adjustment, and maybe calming down a bit.
This isn’t garbage at all. The Chicago media has been selling us Garcia very aggressively, but he’s never shown that he has any idea what he’s doing at the ML level.
No doubt he has a ton of potential, but he doesn’t know how to hit or field yet. We hope he learns, but it’s far from a slam dunk.
It’s pretty simple and you got to it eventually. At 23 years old and 500 PA, people were hopeful that Viciedo would get better. Maybe even learn to be not awful at the easiest defensive position on the field. Two or three years, 1200 PA later, and with actually declining defensive numbers despite being young, people feel like he is what he is and won’t learn. Garcia still hasn’t had the chance, so he gets the benefit of the doubt with fans. Basically, it is an illustration that Hope is still the easiest thing to sell in the whole world.
I thought it was uncanny how similar Viciedo’s output was to McCann last year..
Viciedo: .231/.281/.405, ISO .174
McCann: .232/.286/.406, ISO .174
It’s quite a coincidence, but it’s also a respectable line from McCann. Obviously given the contract, you’d hope for more, but given that he’s a good catcher, you can accept those numbers. Viciedo is a bad defensive corner outfielder, and I may be understating just how bad he is by merely saying he’s “bad.”
How did Garcia get hurt again last year? Or was it just a fluke?
Diving awkwardly in the outfield.
actually he inured it selling out for a run-saving, diving catch in shallow right field that held a runner on 3rd in a in a 1-run ball game with 2 outs late in the game.
I would hesitate to say that the White Sox have ‘serious issues’ anywhere. They have question marks in 4-5 areas where they may not excel. Flowers is tolerable and could be boosted by a healthy Soto. Gillaspie should prosper at 3B with platoon support from Becks and Bonaparte. I am not sold on Garcia but if you triple his 46 games last year you get 21 HR and 87 RBI. The SP and bullpen have been upgraded, and they seem to be much better stocked with replacements there this season. 2B could be a black hole but they have 5-6 candidates and should manage. My view on Sanchez from last season is that he should be at least a placeholder until Micah is ready. Meanwhile people say Cleveland could win the AL pennant, because they are hoping that Gavin Floyd will step up and be their #2 SP.
For a fan base that doesn’t show up to the park to support the team they supposedly love, Sox fans get really butthurt when you talk about their players. Such as sensitive lot…