Blue Jays Push Chips to Middle, Acquire David Price
Well, if you weren’t sure if the Blue Jays were really going for it or not, here’s your answer. A few days after acquiring Troy Tulowitzki, Toronto has shipped out pitching prospects Daniel Norris, Jairo Labourt, and Matt Boyd to rent the last few months of David Price’s 2015 season, giving them the #1 starter they’ve lacked all season, and a dramatic upgrade to a rotation that was mediocre at best, and extremely thin at the back-end. While Price can’t single-handedly solve all of their pitching issues, he’s still a dramatic upgrade that makes the team far more likely to advance deep into the playoffs than they were this morning.
Like with the Johnny Cueto deal, the price for a rental was pretty steep, costing the Jays a couple of guys who could pitch in the big leagues next year, plus have some long-term upside. In his pre-season Top 200, Kiley McDaniel put a 60 FV grade on Norris, ranking him the #17 overall prospect, two spots ahead of some guy named Noah Syndergaard. Norris struggled some this year, both in the majors and in Triple-A, but he’s the best prospect moved in any deadline trade so far.
And Labourt and Boyd aren’t just throw-ins. Labourt ranked 12th on the Blue Jays list, based on big velocity from a left-handed arm, and Boyd has dramatically improved his stock by seeing his stuff takes several steps forward this year. When asked about Boyd in a chat last month, Kiley said this:
Just talked to a scout that saw him a few weeks back. His velo jumped this year from 88-92 t94 to 91-94 t96 and the solid average off-speed is now above average, sometimes flashing better. He signed for 75K as a senior from Oregon State who had his velo bump as a senior, then again two years later. Basically unprecedented as far as I know. He’s at least a high 45 FV now, probably closer to 50 FV. When the scout was telling me what he saw, I made him repeat everything because it was so hard to believe.
A 55/60 FV guy in Norris, a 45/50 guy in Boyd, and a 45 guy in Labour puts this package even a step ahead of what the Royals paid to get Johnny Cueto, and significantly thins out the Blue Jays stockpile of young arms, already weakened by Monday’s deal for Tulowitzki. Unquestionably, the Jays have decided that their window to win is now, and they weren’t content to just see whether this group could run down a Wild Card spot without significant reinforcements.
Clearly, they’re going to need to do more than just reach the play-in game for this to be worth the cost. Price’s potential impact, though, makes this a deal worth doing, even if paying this cost for a rental is likely to be painful in the long-run.
The upgrade from Norris/Boyd to Price over the rest of the season will add roughly +1.5 WAR to the Blue Jays ledger, and given the dog fight they’re in for the AL Wild Card, the marginal value of those extra wins is remarkably high. For instance, here are our estimated Playoff Odds from right before the algorithm knew that the Jays had David Price, and right after.
| Trade | DIV | WC | POFF | WC | ALDS | ALCS | WS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Without Price | 7.5 | 26.1 | 33.6 | 12.9 | 10.0 | 4.9 | 2.4 |
| With Price | 12.2 | 32.8 | 45.0 | 17.3 | 15.6 | 8.6 | 4.5 |
By adding Price, the Jays saw their playoff odds spike by 11 percentage points, and their odds of getting to and winning the World Series nearly doubled. But even just quoting that upgrade is probably underestimating the impact Price can have if the Blue Jays can get deep into October. A lot of the focus is going to be on giving them an ace to hand the ball to in the Wild Card game –and certainly, Price is a much better option for that winner-take-all contest than Mark Buehrle or R.A. Dickey — but I think he actually has a larger impact in the later rounds of the postseason, when an elite hurler can throw a disproportionate number of a team’s critical innings.
In the regular season last year, Madison Bumgarner threw 217 of the Giants 1,449 innings pitched, or 15% of their team total. Last October, the Giants played in 160 postseason innings; Madison Bumgarner pitched 53 of them, or 33% of their total. That was obviously an extreme situation, and no one can be expected to dominate October like Bumgarner did, but it was a very clear example of how teams can reallocate innings to their best arms in the postseason.
And that’s one of the nice things about renting an ace; you don’t necessarily have to be quite as concerned with limiting his workload. Certainly, the Blue Jays shouldn’t be reckless with Price’s career, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the Blue Jays asked him to work on three days rest throughout the postseason, and he may very well end up throwing in excess of 25% of the team’s innings in the playoffs if they make a deep run.
This is where the ace-premium comes from, because while a #1 starter can still only start 33 games in the regular season, they effectively become as valuable as two good starters in the postseason. And the Blue Jays didn’t have anyone to fill that role, so the innings they’re going to be reallocating to Price come from the weakest parts of their organization, making this a larger upgrade than any other contender could have possibly made.
Now, having an ace is obviously no guarantee of success, and you can only carry that kind of workload if you’re actually pitching well. Clayton Kershaw was supposed to be that guy for the Dodgers last year, and you remember how that went. James Shields was the Royals rotation anchor last year, but he only threw 25 of their 141 innings (18%) because he kept giving up runs and had to be replaced with a more effective reliever. Just because the Jays have David Price doesn’t mean they can pencil him in for 30% of their team’s innings with an ERA under 2.00 across the board; baseball doesn’t always work that way.
But now they have the potential to have that performance, when that didn’t really exist before in a meaningful way. And if Price turns in a dominating postseason, with Buehrle and Dickey keeping things from getting out of hand in their starts, then the Blue Jays rotation starts to look pretty decent. And, of course, their offense remains the best in the league, so they only need to be decent at run prevention to be a serious threat in October.
Unquestionably, there’s a lot of risk here. As Jeff Sullivan noted last week, 21 teams have traded for aces since 1995, and not a single one went on to win the World Series. It’s easy to overstate the value of one dominant pitcher and forget that the rest of the team matters too, and no matter how good of a team you build up, the postseason tournament is still mostly decided by randomness. But while you can’t guarantee anything in advance, you can give yourself better odds, and David Price gives the Jays significantly better odds of making a run.
The cost was unquestionably high. Next year, when Price is likely pitching elsewhere while Norris and Boyd take the mound for the Tigers every few days, this deal might very well sting, especially if the Jays end up getting bounced early in the postseason. This deal puts a lot of pressure on the team to perform in October, and the history of those kinds of deals isn’t always kind.
But the potential payoff is enormous. The Blue Jays haven’t made the playoffs since 1993, the year Daniel Norris was born. They consistently run middle-of-the-pack attendance numbers now, after spending years putting record numbers of fans in the Skydome, and clearly, there’s an untapped market of Blue Jays fans who will return if the organization gives them reason to. A strong run in the postseason could bring in more future revenue than the team could have possibly hoped to have saved by keeping Norris, Boyd, and Labourt around for their cost-controlled years.
So yeah, the cost was significant. But the potential reward is as well, and given the rest of the team’s roster, this looks like the kind of scenario that justifies pushing your chips in and making a run. It might not work; in fact, history suggests it probably won’t work. But the return for hitting it big once can make up for going for it and failing multiple times.
The Jays are definitely going for it. And now, they have the kind of pitcher that makes going for it in October a heck of a lot easier.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
I always thought that the Tulo trade wasnt really a “deadline deal”, just more of a regular deal that happened to take place at the deadline. This trade is the deadline move people were waiting for.
Anthopoulos said as much. He said this was something he was working on since the off-season. It just happened to click now and that lines up with the deadline in terms of the calendar. making that trade was entirely divorced from where the Jays are in the standings, what they’re doing regarding the playoffs, etc.
AA wouldn’t make this trade if he didn’t know already that Rogers (Jays owners) was making the funds available to extend this window.
I feel like the likelihood of a Price signing with the Jays this offseason increased significantly. The teams offense is going to be exactly the same next year, except with a full year of one Tulo. And maybe Michael Saunders.
It’s time. AA isn’t letting the league’s best offense go to waste. Now it’s up to the players to do their thing. Let’s end this 21 year streak.
I hear ya and it’ll be fun to watch, but thinking about 2016 it should be noted (a) the Jay’s run differential has been much better than their BaseRuns or BP 2nd/3rd order projections and (b) most of their offensive production is on the wrong side of the decline curve…
Upside is huge… risks are there, though.
I don’t think there’s any chance Price resigns with the Jays.
It would be surprising to say the absolute least.
I’m not sure. That wild card play in game vs either Hou or LAA is such a crap shoot. Giving away chips for a 2 month rental to hopefully get to a 1 gm playoff seems like too much of a dice roll to me. If they had a better shot at division it would be easier to swallow.
They have 13 games left with the Yankees
also 7 with baltimore, 4 with the twins, 3 with the angels, 6 with the rays, 3 with KC. not an easy path….
But the Yankees are precisely the team you need to beat, so having 13 games with them is really good. You don’t need to depend on other teams to make them lose.
As for the other teams, except for KC, not all that scary.
Yanks have the best record in MLB since all star break. For arguments sake, if the current hottest team in MLB simply played .500 ball remainder of season, Toronto would have to go 37-23 rest of way to catch them.
But the point is that they have 13 games against them. We’re all playing the hypothetical “what if” game right now, but if Toronto goes 9-4 against the Yankees, they gain 5 games on them and then only have to be one better throughout their remaining games.
When you have head to head matchups with teams in front of you, deficits can be cut very quickly.
I dont think having 13 games minimizes the deficit. Expecting a team to win 9 of 13 is crazy. All these hypotheticals are possible, but extremely unlikely. I think Jays did not make this move expecting to catch the Yanks, but made this move to get into wild card game, and if they happen to catch the Yanks then great.
Either way my point remains the same. They traded for a rental with a very small likelihood of winning the division. Their odds increased, but according to this article increased to 12%. With division more than likely out of reach, and wild card more than likely Tor route to playoffs if they were to make it, I just cant justify the trade.
Thing about this is if it’s Houston (which it should be) they probably wanna start Keuchel or Kazmir. Jays have pounded lefties to a tune of like 140wrc+ this year. Should be a fun game for Jays fans.
Well, for the moment it’s the Angels and the Astros actually have the better odds of winning the division.
In that case, I still like the Jays’ chances.
You probably face Garrett Richards who hasn’t been nearly as good as last year.
I know this does make the Tigers future look bright, but it does help, and it should end all the talk about the Tigers being Philly 2.0. Dave D figured out it was time to sell much faster then RJ.
My thinking exactly – all the Phillies talk was getting out of hand. DD is far more skilled than RJ at extending the window. The amount of young talent on the Tigers is under appreciated.
Yep, the Tigers have an All Star SS and RF in the primes of their careers, their starting CF, 3B and C are all 25 and under. They have 60 million coming off the books this year and 3 contracts beyond 2017. Their 2 bad contracts are to one of the 10 greatest RH hitters in the history of baseball(who is still one of the 5 best hitters on the planet) and to an MVP pitcher who still touches 97 with a curveball. Not the same as the Phillies players.
Of course the Tigers could still end up bad, you never know, but the Phillies narrative is really overplayed. That is the absolute worse case scenario, if they can’t sign any players, Cabrera stays injured, Verlander doesn’t rebound at all, Kinsler loses all his value, Sanchez declines, Castellanos doesn’t develop, nobody from their farm contributes. Then yeah they could become the Phillies but all those things happening are highly unlikely.
‘an MVP pitcher who still touches 97 with a curveball’
The f*#k?
The Jays weren’t really a .500 team even before these trades also as they were the team that most felt has been the biggest underachiever this season of the remaining contenders left (meaning base runs and pythag.).
Huge point. Talent and performance-wise, the Jays were already close to being the best in the AL East. Getting Price (and potentially keeping him from the Yankees) after getting Tulo moves their potential performance the last few months to the point where they may actually catch the Yankees and avoid the play-in game.
Talent-wise, they outscored their opponents by a far greater margin than any other team in the AL.
That’s because they have offensive outbreaks vs terrible arms – specifically lefties. That’s a deceiving number in my opinion.
The Jays are the reason that run differential is more than flawed in my opinion.
Well except they WERE actually a .500 team because thats what thier record was. I get what you are saying but those wins and losses actually happened and the Jays are where they are.
I think the point is that you play the remainder of the season with your talent, and not just with your previous record. That is of course why you make trades. And on talent alone, this was not really a .500 team. So the addition of Tulo & Price doesn’t make this team a .550 team, but potentially a bit better than that. Adding these two to a true .500 team would not be as impactful.
You play with your talent, but you also have to drag your previous record, to get the division the Jays have to be a lot more than simply better than the yankees.
Exactly jss.
Jays can have the best record in MLB rest of way, and Yanks would simply need to be ok to hold them off.
Yes, that is definitely the challenge. They need to play .660 or better ball to do it. But they could, unlike many .500 teams that add a few pieces.
We have a real chance of some exciting baseball through to the end of the season, and that has value, too.
They would need to play better than .600 ball assuming the Yankees win 87 games.
The Jays have to play .600 ball to win 87 games, and they are still throwing garbage out on the mound 3 of the 5 days a week.
Mathematically, it doesn’t look good for the Jays to catch the Yankees.
But don’t forget about the randomness of baseball. Luck isn’t any more symmetrical in baseball than it is in life.
Some recent collapses that illustrate this: the 2013 Oakland A’s, who barely made the final WC and then lost in the WC game. Remember where they were at the All-Star break? Injuries to Moss, Crisp and the sudden inability of others to perform lead them to the crapshoot that is the WC game. And the Angels: if Richards and Shoemaker had not gotten hurt late in the season, how far might they have advanced in the playoffs?
The Royals were probably the healthiest team in baseball when the playoffs began and that has more to do with luck than anything else. Unless, of course,you believe their yoga teachers are better than those of other teams, lol.
The 2011 Red Sox, who were up 9 games on the Rays at the beginning of September.
The 2007 Mets, the 1995 Angels…the list goes on.
But the very same baseball gods that may frown on the fortunes of the Yankees (Pineda hurt again?) could just as easily derail the playoff hopes of the Jays. Given the injury histories of Tulo, Bautista and even Encarnacion, is it all that unlikely that more than one of these players ends up on the DL at a critical juncture?
As the saying goes: stuff happens. The teams that will make the playoffs will have fewer brushes with bad luck in the next two months. That little white baseball that takes funny bounces will humble even a very talented team.
I’m not a huge fan of this trade for my Jays, but as an interesting historical note, if Jeff had extended his study just two World Series back, he would’ve hit the last time trading for an ace at the deadline helped win a championship – the 1992 Blue Jays themselves.
Of course, that team went straight to the LCS, so they didn’t have to deal with the Division Series filter.
True, that did make it easier, though they also had only a 2 in 14 chance of making the playoffs.
That would be true if every team had equal talent and therefore equal chances to win each game, but that’s not how sports work.
Obviously I didn’t mean that by it, the point is that there were half as many playoff spots to fight for.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Saying the last time it worked was when the jays did it last is a better point.
The Tigers are looking at mediocrity at best for the next few seasons. This trade is a good head start on re-building, but don’t kid ourselves Tigers fans, its going to be a rough road ahead.
Next year’s rotation is going to be worse off with no David Price, and this year’s was pretty bad already.,
Yep, bummer for Ilitch, who probably won’t see a world series now. It’s going to be about 4 years of suffering. After that, the only prohibitive contracts on the books will be Cabrera and verlander, and while they will be big, as long as the team still is willing to spend it won’t be a massive hurdle. It’s the next few years, when five players + fielder are eating up 110+ million, leaving them with a Marlins like budget to fill out the rest of the team, that will suck. The one good thing is that DD has been down the rebuilding road a few times before. Hopefully by the end of the decade we’ll be back in it again.
I don’t understand the happiness about this trade from Tigers’ fans. Its like being happy your spouse died after a long illness because now you can go out and date again. OK, maybe that’s not the best analogy, but the Tigers as we’ve known them the last few years are over. I can’t believe there are people who think this team is still going to contend in 2016.
I think it’s just a sense of relief, sort of a feeling of knowing what’s done is done. We’ve had a nice run. We need to try to start building for the future now. There are some fans who think we’ll be great still, but I think the realistic ones understand why this was done and what the short term looks like.
They have 60 million dollars to spend in the offseason, they didn’t field a lineup of a healthy Victor, Cabrera or JD all season, they had 4 guys start at one point with ERA’s over 5.5(Doesn’t cost much to improve that), Sanchez was subpar, and they are just now starting to get a healthy Verlander.
Their sequencing has also been unlucky this year. They lead the league in BA and OBP yet are 5th in runs scored.
Basically everything that could go wrong with the exception of Iglesias has gone wrong for the Tigers. They have a great offense, solid defense, just need decent pitching. They are carrying like 6 or 7 guys that have ERAs over 5.5. It’s not hard to improve upon that.
These reasons are why people think they can and should contend next year.
Seeing this deal happen gives me a lot of respect for Ilitch. I already like an owner who says to spend money, but he also remembered that he’s not the only fan.
Who else are you referring to? People assume that rebuilds work like clockwork. There is still tremendous risk involved with this deal. You’re giving up a shot at the playoffs for a lot of uncertainty down the road.
It might still be the best decision, but its nothing to be happy about.
Rental yes but Norris has taken a step back. A big one this year. He doesn’t remind me of a future ace. That 60 FV was on the heels of a great milb season in 2014. I’d take Finnegan over him.
What step has he taken back? He’s young for AAA, and showed at the big league level that he has the talent to get people out – his control just needs some work.
Really? Reduced K rate, increased BB rate. 1.51 WHIP in AAA. He has looked much worse.
Plenty of arms aren’t quite as effective following a demotion. Not sure what you think that proves.
proves he has taken a step back.
That’s far from ludicrous. Brandon Finnegan is a very, very interesting arm.
Real question – what postseason position is more enviable? Team A cruises through the regular season, wins the division and has a staff consisting of numerous #2 or #3-type starters, at best. Team B just gets in as a WC but has two legitimate #1-type starters, with the rest of the staff consisting of league-average pitchers. Which team would you bet on?
There is just no way that those two aces can make up for having to play in the WC game. Even if you’re a heavy favorite, it still cuts your chances of winning the WS almost in half.
Price is great and all but the fact remains that, even with Price the Fangraphs rest-of-season projections have Toronto sneaking into the last wild card slot. That’s a big price to pay (no pun intended) just to be able to participate in a 50/50 play-in game. Many might point to the Blue Jays +100 run differential and claim that they’ve just been underachieving thus far. That may be, but we’re 100+ games into the season and they sit at .500, 3rd in their division (7 GB of the Yankees), and 2 GB of the last wild card spot. Again, a steep price paid and far from a guarantee of even making the playoffs. All told, probably a good move, particularly if they can leverage the last 60 games into a reasonable extension for Price (assuming they can afford it) but Blue Jays fans should realize that this is a team that still has less than a 50% chance of making the playoffs and closer to a 75% chance of participating in no more than one playoff game.
Philosophically. and taking the long view, I think AL East teams who are not Bos/NYY have to be aggressive in exploiting the years when the two goliaths are relatively weak.
Neither is too impressive a team this year, so it makes sense to exploit the window … or rather, it would if the Jays were neck and neck for the division lead. As it is, even with adding Price and Tulo, they only have about a ~15% chance of winning the division, ~50% of getting into the wildcard.
You’re giving up three prospects on the 50/50 hope of a wild card game, and then a 50/50 hope you win that. Terrible move by Toronto.
#Bluejays 4.34 rotation ERA add Price. #Yankees 4.32 rotation ERA lose Pineda.
— Joel Sherman (@Joelsherman1) July 30, 2015
And the good starters are on innings limits and are injury risks, so they might not have many bullets left for October. But if the Yankees can hold on for the division, at least they get ALDS revenue!
Yankees have a 3.89 rotation FIP and a 3.60 rotation xFIP, FWIW. Blue Jays are at 4.34 and 4.33, respectively.
Yeah, I think you can argue that after these deadline moves and Pineda’s injury the Jays have a better overall rotation (and possibly overall pitching staff as the bullpen comparison is MUCH closer now), but the Yanks were obviously better in the rotation and worlds better in the bullpen before.
You’re giving up three prospects on the 50/50 hope of a wild card game, and then a 50/50 hope you win that. Terrible move by Toronto.
Terrible move? What do you do for a living, Eddie? Go out in the real world and show some balls. Live a little. I give Toronto credit for having the balls to make such a move.
Going out in public and showing your balls to people is often inadvisable
Padres showed some balls, how’d that work out?
I wonder if the Yankees feel threatened enough by the Tulo and now Price deals to make a splash, especially in light of Pineda’s injury and Tanaka’s relative struggles, not to mention Nova’s probable innings limit (and lack of strikeouts) and Sabathia’s struggles (not that they would ever actually remove him from the rotation, but he might get a phantom DL stint). Oh, and Stephen Drew is probably not the answer at second base either, but that may be less pressing given that they have been scoring runs.
“Next year, when Price is likely pitching elsewhere while Norris and Boyd take the mound for the Tigers every few days, this deal might very well sting”
The Jays lack pitching, but they had some good prospects on the way. Not anymore. With the Tulo trade, they did gain a lot of future value. But with this one, they sacrifice a lot for this year alone. In 2016 they’ll now have to rely on Aaron Sanchez (who I think is destined for a career in the bullpen), RA Dickey’s unpalatable option, and the volatility of the free agent market. I think they’ll be regretting this deal, possibly on Oct 6…
Price could take them through the play-in game, but there’s still a long way to go after that. And what if he pulls something?
If you think Dickey’s option is “unpalatable”, you should check him again. He’s actually pitched very well in nearly all his starts, but the ones that hurt him have hurt him REALLY badly.
If he keeps it up, his option is going to be a good deal.
11M for 1 year of Dickey is very reasonable.
Marky Mark comes off the books this year (and Romero too I believe) so there’s the 25-30M for Price to resign him
The Jays make a QO on Buehrle. If he accepts it, the Jays get him for another year, which is very reasonable. If not, the Jays get the pick and can use the money he would have earned on a different pitcher. It’s a win-win.
for his age 37 season i think he accepts it. i would probably prefer to offer 2/25 assuming you ask him how he feels about it.
For a 37 year old, 2/25 is far more appealing to the player than it is to the team. He’d reject the QO in a second if he had that on the table elsewhere.
the q.o is what 18/19 mil next year?
They’d be able to get Price in the offseason without trading anyone. There’s no restricted FAs in baseball.
Stroman will be back next year, if not sooner.
Totally forgot about him
Next year could be Stroman, Dickey, Sanchez, Hutchison, Estrada. Looks pretty good to me right now.
Osuna could be in there, too, but then of course then you just have to find another closer.
We weren’t even dreaming on Boyd this year, so hard to lament his leaving. Too bad about Norris & Hoffman, but c’mon! Tulo! Wow!
Osuna is likely a better bet than all those guys other than stro.
Your comment makes a lot of sense. This deal could look bad in the end. No question. I do think that there’s a real chance that Sanchez and Osuna wind up in the rotation though. Stroman will be back too. They should have some payroll room to make a meaningful addition or two as well. It probably won’t be someone as good as Price, but I have faith that they’ll find a way of putting together a rotation that’s better than what the Jays have received to this point in the season.
either the deal gets the Jays to this year’s World Series, or they get Price to stay with the club….or it really is going to hurt
Really? Check out the scouting report: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/projecting-the-players-in-the-david-price-trade/
The Jays could be really unlucky and have given up a Junichi Tazawa and a Gavin Floyd for two fun months of Price. Nice players, but not that bad a trade, eh? And that is the high side of the projection.
If the Tigers turn them into something better than that, some of the credit goes to their farm system.
There is definite value in waking up the fan base; let’s see what season ticket sales look like next year.
Anthopolous is trying to save his job with a big splash run at the playoffs. If they don’t get in, and he gets canned, then what does he care if the Blue Jays’ prospect cupboards are bare? If they do get in, then maybe they make a run and he saves his job.
Yep, this is it in a nutshell. There’s just no way this is anything but a very bad % bet. But AA’s toast unless they make the playoffs, so future be darned.
Or this is a recognition that this Jays team is actually much better than their results so far (considering their run differential), so AA is doing what’s necessary to improve what may be the best or second-best team in the AL.
Actually, beginning in the off-season, AA has worked tirelessly to set the team up for a future beyond Bautista/Edwin.
They now have Travis/Martin/Donaldson/Tulo locked up for 4+ years as the new core after next year if both JB/EE leave.
In terms of pitching, Stroman/Sanchez/Osuna form a nice young core – with really only about $100 million committed for next year. Plenty of room to add to the roster.
Regardless if JB/EE leave, if you want to look at 2017+ then
Bautista is 36
Encarnacion is 34
Tulo is 32 with 2 years on concrete to get injured
Donaldson is a free agent in 2019
Martin is 34
I think the window is now-2016. Bautista, Tulo, EE, and Martin will be well into their decline. The farm needs to be restocked. They luckily still have enough time to do that organically but it could get ugly.
Yeah if that was the case he would have leveraged the pieces he traded for Tulo into another rental. He probably could have gotten Price, Cueto, and kept Reyes if he only cared about 2015.
You really think Rogers lets AA trade for Price if AA is gone at the end of the season?
Well, I don’t think the decision has absolutely been made, but I think if the Blue Jays don’t make the playoffs – and maybe they even have to advance in the playoffs – then I think Anthopolous is going to get fired. The Blue Jays were trying to hire Dan Duquette this past offseason already, which would have made Anthopolous’s position tenuous to say the least. He has every incentive to go all in for this season. I think this dynamic of job security is an underappreciated feature of major league front office decisions.
So, let’s see what is still in the cupboard from their springtime top prospects: #3, #4, #5, #7-#11, and most of the rest of the top 30. A lot of good arms in there; feel free to check it out.
With the rule 5 draft, it is actually prudent to trade a few guys away when you have a lot of them coming up, because otherwise you lose them for nothing. You’ll notice that this was mentioned prominently in the case of Anthony Alford, for example.
And after all, trading prospects is one of the reasons you want to have them. Despite what was traded away, I think the cupboard still have some stuff in it.
As a Jays fan my first reaction was that they’re giving up too much (though not as bad as when Alford was reported to be in it). It is strange that they gave up similar prospect value for Tulo as they did with Price.
But, a small note in Dave’s article was the untapped market potential in Toronto. They’ve acted like a mid-market team, but they could be more of a big market team. Even getting into the playoffs likely results in a huge revenue boost, both with attendance and TV ratings (and Rogers directly profits on the TV).
In theory that can enable them to sign another pitcher this winter, among the many good FA (maybe even Price!). They do have a lot of payroll space open in 2016 to fill that gap.
I’m not sure just looking at the added WAR is really fully explanatory when you add a new #1 starter to your rotation. You are pushing everyone down a slot, moving your worst pitcher off entirely, and one of your starters can now go to the pen. So Doubront can go be another lefty in the pen, where he will might be more effective and help the pen overall, and Hutchison or Estrada starts less frequently, and David Price gets to pitch, hopefully reducing wear on the pen.
What’s fully explanatory is Jeff’s study of last week. Teams trading for aces are now 0-for-the-last-21. Clemens, Unit, Maddux, Pedro all super-aces who played for plenty of good teams. With 1 WS title each to show for their careers. Baseball playoffs are just so, so random. Only proper strategy is try to get into as many as you can. Which prospects-for-rentals works dead against.
But David Cone …
Price has been one of the four or five best pitchers in baseball since 2010 yet it seems like this is just the fourth or fifth time I’ve seen an article about him on the front page of FanGraphs in that time. Sometimes it seems like he is really underrated.
He’s got to get behind Dallas Keuchel on this site.
Advice for all of us, that.
I think it’s because he’s always in the 4-7 range, never surprisingly good or bad, and never the best. It’s a side effect of his being so consistent I guess.
Yep. Plus I don’t ever remember him having a stretch or a season of spectacular baseball. Obviously he was consistently great for most of his career and especially his Cy Young year but I don’t remember him having a truly dominant stretch like some of the other aces have had.
It’s kinda like Miguel Cabrera on here. Obviously he got the national pub by winning 2 MVPs but on here he hasn’t gotten anything. I think I can count on 1 hand how many non roto articles have been about him. He has been the best hitter in baseball for about a half decade now, yet doesn’t get recognized on here. Before his injury a few weeks ago he led everybody not named Bryce Harper in rc+ and wOBA and was about to win his 4th batting title in 5 years despite the fact many pundits wrote him off after his disappointing year last year. Was there an article talking about his greatness or him not being done yet? Of course not.
You have to like your chances with Price pitching 1 game wildcard, 1-4 of 5 gamer, 1-4-7 of WS. On top of that you really only need 1 or 2 good ones out of either Dickey and Buerhle, and both are as capable of tossing a shutout as getting lit up. I respect the math but anyone who downplays the value of have Price throw 6 games as opposed to Dickey is just being a troll. This is a great move.
The thing is that you’re obviously not guaranteed a division, and if you go to a 1 game playoff Price is more than likely not starting.(Unless they start him on short rest there is an 80% chance he doesn’t) So more than likely for the 1 game playoff you are going to depend on your other guys.
Price isn’t going to be the guy that makes you win the division since he only has 10 starts left, so you are basically banking him on starting the 1 game playoff for you. If it doesn’t land on that than your entire season depends on your other starters and you are right back where you started. If that person can win and you can get to the ALDS and Price can start 2 games there than that is a huge advantage. But otherwise he won’t make that big of impact on the Blue Jays.
Sure he will be great the rest of the way, but the Jays could’ve made the playoffs with a number 3 instead of Price, when you’re scoring 5+ runs a game you don’t need a guy with a 2 ERA every 5th day to win. You just need a decent guy.
I’m undecided on whether it was the right move, but I do think it’s interesting to juxtapose it with the Orioles’ trade for Andrew Miller last year. That move is generally criticized in these parts because they parted with a good prospect for three months of a reliever. But Andrew Miller was worth .9 WAR to the Orioles for those three months and played an important role in getting them through the ALDS (plus pitched important innings in the ALCS).
Here, you’re projecting Price to be worth an extra 1.5 WAR to the Jays (ZiPS says 1.8). And he’ll probably pitch more playoff innings than Miller, but not definitely. So for about an extra win and more playoff innings, the Jays part with a prospect of similar vintage to the one the O’s dealt (if anything, Norris is more highly regarded than E-Rod was at the time), plus two other legitimate prospects who project to be future MLers.
So I guess I’m puzzled why the Miller deal is criticized by the Price deal complimented. Seems to me the two deals are pretty well aligned.
I defend the Miller deal. The Orioles were looking for a true weapon for the playoffs and they found one. It just didn’t work out against the Royals.
This deal is shakier for me because the Jays are in a much less secure position now than the Orioles were last season. They might not even make the playoffs. They are 2 in the loss column behind Baltimore, 3 behind Minnesota, and that’s just for the 2nd wildcard position.
Exactly. They very well may be looking at a 1 game playoff on the road, and who knows if Price would even start that. Atleast Miller would be available just about every game. You are basically gambling that you make the actual playoffs or that Price will be the one lined up to start the one gamer.
‘if anything, Norris is more highly regarded than E-Rod was at the time’
Not so sure about that but opinions vary obviously.
Agreed, opinions vary, especially in the prospect universe. But all the major rankings I’ve seen have included Norris in the top 50. Rodriguez, meanwhile, was not quite that high. A quick Google says BA and KLaw had him outside the top 50 last midseason, while Sickels had him out of his top 75. So I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that they were probably in roughly the same tier but, if anything, Hoffman was a notch ahead (at the time they were traded).
The Jays are too far back to be doing this. They won’t make the playoffs and wasted Norris + 2 for nothing.
Dumb. KC was 48-50 last year and came within one swing of winning the WS.
A ton of baseball still to be played and there is not a goliath team in front of them in the East. No reason they can’t still win the division and make a deep playoff run.
2 games back in July is pretty insurmountable.
Especially when you are chasing a team like the Twins and Orioles. Nothing against them but they aren’t exactly the 27 Yankees.
Has there ever been a more diverse 1-2-3 in MLB than Price/Buehrle/Dickey?
I’d like Price to be in the middle of that group. That’d be three completely different effective pitchers in a row, with the power guy in between the two slow guys.
I’d like Price to get as many starts as possible, since the Jays only have him for 2+ months and he’s objectively much better than Buehrle or Dickey.
This is the correct answer.
Pedro Martinez / Tim Wakefield / Derek Lowe?
Does anyone else think this package could’ve fetched Hamels? Not that Hamels is a better pitcher, but the extra years of team control would’ve fit well with the Jays contention window.
Hamels has a limited no trade clause, and that included going to Toronto. Given the haul that RAJ somehow got from the Astros (I didn’t know he had it in him!) it doesn’t look like this would have fetched Hamels even if he was willing to come to Toronto.
I have no idea how good or bad any of these prospects are other than what “experts” say about them so I’m not necessarily knocking the move, but is it the most prudent for the Jays to trade for a frontline starter like Price?
With their offense, couldn’t they just trade for a decent starter and/or dominant relievers, which wouldn’t cost as much? Especially if they are going for the division.
Price only has like 10 starts left and they are 6 back of the division. WAR aside, how many of those games that they potentially win will be because of Price?(I.E. like 3-1 or less games) Probably not that many.
So basically where Price really comes in handy is the playoffs. Being able to throw him 2-3 times in a 7 game series, with that offense is a huge luxury. But right now it is gonna be hard for them to win the division, so more than likely they are looking at a 1 game playoff. If Price isn’t scheduled to start that game than they are back to square one.
Long story short, I love Price and I love the fact that the Jays are going for it, I just think at this stage in the game that they he isn’t the best fit. If they were up 6 games and they knew they were making the “real playoffs” than I could see, or if they had a terrible offense and really needed a dominant starter every 5th game to almost guarantee a win I could see. But neither are the case. They have a great offense that really just needs a guy that doesn’t blow up for them to win.
Again though, I’m not knocking the trade itself cause they are a better team now then they were before, and they certainly could still win it all, I just think with how good their offense is and where they are in the standings that they could’ve used Norris to get a guy that could help them more than a guy that is only going to make 10 starts will.