Breaking Down the Prospects in the Scott Kazmir Trade

With significant deadline trades, we’re going to attempt to provide an evaluation of the prospects changing teams from both Kiley McDaniel’s scouting perspective and Chris Mitchell’s statistical breakdowns. The numerical breakdown of both players appears below Kiley’s write-ups.

Today, the Houston Astros officially decided to go for it, acquiring Scott Kazmir from the A’s in exchange for for A-Ball prospects RHP Daniel Mengden and C Jacob Nottingham. Both were late cuts from my preseason prospect list list, which by Opening Day, with the Evan Gattis trade and losing Delino DeShields in the Rule 5 draft, included 22 players.

Both players were among the group of six given 35+ FV grades, so they were both in the 23-28 range in Houston’s system entering the year. I don’t have inside info on how the negotiations went down, but I’m guessing Kazmir was long a target for Houston (as they took a run at him this offseason) and Oakland was holding out for a top 10 prospect in the Astros organization. Based on the preseason rankings, this will look like a light return, but given Nottingham’s breakout season, they did indeed land a guy who would have ranked in the Astros top 10 if the list was re-done today.

Coming into the season, Nottingham was an offensive-minded catcher with the body and tools to be a high-level prospect, but there were some questions relating to his contact and defensive skills. He’s emphatically answered the offensive concerns this year, and that makes the defensive questions less important. A scout I spoke to today answered the “Will he be a catcher?” question with “Yes, not elite defensively, but will hit enough to make it work.” There’s still some typical A-Ball stuff to work on for him, as another scout told me today that Nottingham gets a little too high or low on himself based on offensive results, and there are some mechanical issues to work out behind the plate, but this is normal for a 20 year old.

That said, there’s above average raw power potential and arm strength, with a chance to hit .260 or better; if it all works out, Nottingham could be an above average everyday catcher. He’s 6-foot-3 and 200 pounds at 20 years old, while remaining athletic and performing against older competition. He may have enough bat to play everyday at any corner position, so it’s hard to not be excited from Oakland’s perspective, as there’s a lot to like here. I would have Nottingham in the 6-10 area of the Astros list as a 50 FV, even with Kyle Tucker, Alex Bregman and Daz Cameron entering the system from the recent draft, since they’re basically just taking the place of Carlos Correa, Lance McCullers and Vincent Velasquez in the top 10 of the org list.

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As a 50 FV, Nottingham would be in the (roughly) 85-150 area of my top 200 using last year’s list as a guide, but I’ll have a more specific answer after I go through the entire research process this off-season. Nottingham should spend all of next year in the minors and probably most, if not all of 2017, in part because catchers take longer to learn the small things than any other position and he’s still pretty raw back there. I could see the A’s holding onto him like Franklin Barreto, as a potential up the middle impact type that was the prize of a trade, or spinning him into a more MLB-ready piece(s) before next April if the right offer comes along and their 2016 plan comes more into focus.

Mengden only missed the list due to some back issues which he now looks to be mostly past, so I’d slide him up to the 40 FV group. He isn’t big and doesn’t have a plus pitch, but has good feel, three solid average pitches and athleticism — he was also a pretty good hitter as a a two-way guy in college at Texas A&M — so you’re looking at a lower risk, possibly quick-moving back-end starter type.  A scout I talked to said Mengden’s stuff has been more fringy to average this year and he looks like a middle reliever or long man on some days, then like a solid back-end starter on others. He’s a A’s-type pickup in that he doesn’t blow you away with stuff or size but has the ability to eat 180 innings at somewhere around a league average level if things work out.

—
Let’s start with Daniel Mengden, who is a right-handed pitcher just a year removed from Texas A&M. Mengden, who was a fourth round pick in last year’s draft, has split time between Low-A and High-A in 2015. The 22-year-old has pitched to a 3.46 ERA and 3.42 FIP over 88 innings, with the help of better-than-average strikeout (22%) and walk (7%) rates.

Using his 2015 numbers, KATOH forecasts Mendgden for a weak 0.7 WAR through age-28. Although he’s turned in respectable numbers this year, he’s done so as a 22-year-old in A-Ball, which isn’t overly impressive in KATOH’s eyes. His Mahalanobis comps based on his 2015 performance are similarly pessimistic. There are very few successful pitchers in the bunch.

Rank Mah Name IP thru 28 WAR thru 28
1 0.20 Jason Hirsh 165.2 0.6
2 0.25 Simon Mercedes* 0.0 0.0
3 0.34 Nate Bland 20.1 0.0
4 0.35 Robert Gilliam* 0.0 0.0
5 0.39 Jim Abbott 0.0 0.0
6 0.39 Ramon Ramirez 295.2 3.5
7 0.39 Aaron Russelburg 0.0 0.0
8 0.41 Jason Navarro 0.0 0.0
9 0.46 Tyler Smith* 0.0 0.0
10 0.46 Ryan Carter 0.0 0.0
11 0.48 Hansel Izquierdo 29.2 0.0
12 0.48 Jancy Andrade 0.0 0.0
13 0.53 Lance Davis 106.1 1.3
14 0.59 Rafael Lluberes 0.0 0.0
15 0.60 Rich Hines 0.0 0.0
16 0.60 Charlie Rogers 0.0 0.0
17 0.61 Zach Kroenke 10.2 0.0
18 0.62 Greg Aquino 115.0 0.0
19 0.62 Chuck Wanke 0.0 0.0
20 0.62 Harold Mozingo 0.0 0.0

*Pitchers who have yet to play their age-28 season.

Nottingham, a 6th round pick back in 2013, has raked to the tune of .326/.383/.558 as a 20-year-old in A-Ball this year. Most impressive has been his .233 isolated power. Based on his numbers from Low-A and High-A this season, KATOH projects him for 3.0 WAR through age-28, which would have placed him 167th overall on KATOH’s preseason list. That’s not an excellent outlook, but it’s not a terrible one either. Based purely on the numbers, he looks like a future big leaguer, at least. On to the comps.

Rank Mah Name PA thru 28 WAR thru 28
1 0.58 Delwyn Young 779 0.2
2 0.61 David Ortiz 2,871 9.6
3 0.68 J.R. House 63 0.0
4 1.37 Jorge Padilla 0.0 0.0
5 1.42 Luis Tinoco 0.0 0.0
6 1.48 John Roskos 53 0.0
7 1.48 Steve Gibralter 5 0.0
8 1.79 Javier Valentin 799 0.0
9 1.92 Brandon Drury* 0.0 0.0
10 2.07 Walter Young 37 0.0
11 2.20 Juan Encarnacion 3,627 5.5
12 2.35 Travis Snider 1,926 3.3
13 2.36 Brook Fordyce 276 0.0
14 2.40 Alejandro Freire 0.0 0.0
15 2.44 Mike Ryan 285 0.0
16 2.47 Dmitri Young 2,805 7.7
17 2.55 Steve Dunn 43 0.0
18 2.61 Ray Sadler 8 0.1
19 2.68 Brad Nelson 31 0.0
20 2.69 Matt Davidson 87 0.2

*Batters who have yet to play their age-28 season.

Seeing David Ortiz’s name near the top is obviously encouraging, and there are a few other successful hitters sprinkled in as well. The catchers of the group — J.R. House, John Roskos, Javier Valentin and Brook Fordyce — weren’t overly successful in the major leagues, but each of them managed some sort of big league career.

Nottingham seems like the potential prize here, with more upside that this might indicate if his 2015 breakout is sustained going forward. If he keeps mashing, KATOH will be a lot higher on him next year. Despite their late draft selections, both players have achieved a good amount of success in the low minors. It’ll be interesting to see how they fare in the upper levels of the A’s system.





Kiley McDaniel has worked as an executive and scout, most recently for the Atlanta Braves, also for the New York Yankees, Baltimore Orioles and Pittsburgh Pirates. He's written for ESPN, Fox Sports and Baseball Prospectus. Follow him on twitter.

49 Comments
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state the obvious
11 years ago

daz cameron wont be a big leauger book it.

RSF
11 years ago

What a steaming pile of hot take.

Za
11 years ago

Of course he won’t be a “big leauger”. No idea what that even is.

Walter
11 years ago
Reply to  Za

Cut the guy a break. Engmish is hurd.

state the obvious
11 years ago
Reply to  Za

typo, how will the world continue?

Spitball McPhee
11 years ago

seems like a low price, overall. One i wish my Jays had paid first 🙁

Daniel
11 years ago

As a ‘Stros fan, no complaints. Kazmir may have a higher risk than some of the other names, but he’s been good when healthy for a while now and they ended up giving up I imagine quite a bit less here than they would have with Cueto/Hamels.

Also, I’m not so sure he’s a rental. That’s all they’ve been guaranteed, but with his age and injury history, Kazmir may come relatively cheap. He’s from Texas. And the ‘Stros are still a few years away from having to shell out big bucks for their guys.

Overall, sad to see Nottingham go, but this is better than it could have been. I didn’t want the Astros to overreact to their first glimpse of hope and splurge – I think this was a smart, calculated approach.

jb
11 years ago

I definitely feel the Astros won big. They acquired a solid SP for their playoff push. The prospects they gave up are years away, and although Nottingham seems like he’ll be okay, that’s still up in the air. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I’m really surprised a different team did not pony up a bit more for Kazmir.

I may have even preferred a compensation draft pick from letting Kazmir walk in the offseason over the two prospects the A’s got in return.

B.S. Campagna
11 years ago
Reply to  jb

With the comp pick, you would have gotten a player like Mengden, who was first round talent that fell because of injury. So you definitely did better than getting a comp pick for Kazmir, because in addition to Mengden you also got one of the best catching prospects in the game. Beane knows his prospects, and he made out alright in this deal.

n0exit
11 years ago
Reply to  B.S. Campagna

I know Beane wins all trades by default, but one of the best catching prospects in baseball? You can’t be serious. The guy can’t catch. He may never be an average receiver, that not my opinion that scouting opinion from Keith law. This very publication gave him a 35FV before 3 good months in low A. Let’s just tone down the hype a little.

B.S. Campagna
11 years ago
Reply to  n0exit

Fine, some clarity: one of the best BAT-FIRST catching prospects in baseball. And besides that, scouts are now saying that Nottingham will likely stick at catcher. For example, link: http://www.baseballamerica.com/majors/trade-central-astros-bring-kazmir-home/

If you don’t think he’s one of the best catcher prospects, how many would you rank above him? And how many do you have to rank above him before he’s no longer “one of the best”?

Keith Law
11 years ago
Reply to  n0exit

Because Keith Law said so! Hilarious

Walter
11 years ago
Reply to  jb

Really? A comp pick over two solid prospects with good MiLB track records? Ummm, what?

Sure prospects’ MLB performance is ‘up in the air’, that’s why they are called prospects. But you know what’s MORE up in the air, draft picks in the 30+ range. Its not often a comp pick even ends up being a prospect ranked as high as Nottingham would be today, assuming he’d be in the top 75-100 range.

Plus the A’s pay Kazmir’s remaining salary during a lost season….eh, not seeing this here. Its easy to just say they should have held out for more, but we all have exactly zero idea if a better package was being offered.

Rational Fan
11 years ago

I guess I’m in the minority here – I think Nottingham is being valued far too low if he’s in the 150 range. I’d put him somewhere in the top 75, but obviously that evaluation is heavily reliant on this years production. That said, I am comfortable throwing out his first two years in pro-ball, because he was a raw prospect when he was drafted.

I would guess Beane had Nottingham as a top 3-5 catcher prospect in baseball, with a ++ offensive ceiling… That is a lot more value than some players that were perceived to be worth more before the season started; and even now.

jdbolickMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

I’d put him somewhere in the top 75

I would guess Beane had Nottingham as a top 3-5 catcher prospect in baseball

Yeah, that’s a really aggressive projection based on a little over a half season of performance. It’s fine to argue growth and development, but there’s no justification for completely “throwing out his first two years in pro-ball.” Even Kiley’s 50 FV is probably optimistic, as it’s more likely that Nottingham is a 45. Clearly Oakland is hoping for more than that given how light this return feels in a supposed seller’s market.

To be fair, Nottingham’s swing has improved since his high school days as he had a more exaggerated weight transfer back then that had him hitting out over his front foot. It’s not as dramatic now, but he still has a pretty significant stride and transfer that could give him trouble with changeups and better breaking pitches at higher levels. I also think the defensive concerns are being underplayed right now because of how hot he has been at the plate. As a receiver, he stabs at pitches and doesn’t react fluidly to pitches that aren’t where he expects them. Given that he has already improved it would be unreasonable to suggest that Nottingham won’t continue to get better, but I think someone who watched him without knowing his numbers would be significantly less excited than those who do know them.

ShauncoreMember since 2019
11 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

And of note, Nottingham is currently hitting in arguably the best hitters park in arguably the best hitters league.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

True, but if we were to park adjust his numbers they would still be at the top given his position/age/level.

I appreciate the thoughts bolick – given that the majority of my analysis stems from his production, and not the eye test, I appreciate the thoughts from someone who has seen him.

As far as a receiver goes, I think you’d be hard pressed to find many A ball catchers who don’t have work to do in terms of receiving a baseball. Pitch framing is something that improves through reps and reps only.

shadow
11 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

Well yes, technically he is. But he’s spent most of the year (and compiled all these gaudy statistics) down in Quad Cities, which is much more neutral.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Absolutely it’s aggressive, and I understand all who aren’t entirely sold… but in the game of finding a MLB catcher, aggression and risks should be taken. If Nottingham continues down this path – he isn’t exactly an old prospect – he’ll be in the top 50 by the middle of next year and will be a young 21.

Look no further than Swihert’s development, and rise through the prospect rankings; while Swihert got his feet under him a little more quickly, he actually never produced at the level that Nottingham has this early. I am not a big Swihert fan – as I’ve made clear elsewhere – but I have to respect the pedigree and the value he has. Beane got aggressive and went after someone who he valued much higher based on the 1/2 season. I have never weighted a young high school kids production all that heavily to begin with.

I actually like Nottingham’s defensive tools better, and his glove progressed quicker than his bat.

Damaso
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

agreed on both counts – swihart being overrated and nottingham being well ahead of his development curve.

After his 2013 season in A+, Swihart was ranked in the 50-75 range on most lists. And he was a year older than nottingham.

both have similar defensive profiles – raw but athletic enough and good arms – while nottingham boasts a similar batting profile but a whole lot morr power.

and of course nottingham is destroying the competition like swihart never did, and certainly not at that age.

if swihart got ranked 50-75 after A+, nottingham should be ranked higher. maybe even much higher.

jdbolickMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

both have similar defensive profiles

Not even close. Swihart was always fluid whereas Nottingham is stiff and reacts to pitches with his upper body rather than lower body. They are not comparable defensively.

Damaso
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

after your poor stroman scouting report i don’t believe you anymore.

jdbolickMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

By “poor Stroman scouting report” are you referring to me having him more highly ranked (24th) than any major source prior to the 2014 season or me recently pointing out to rabid Blue Jays fans that he is not a #1?

Damaso
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

both. also your false description of how good his rookie year was. also your false claims as to who he was not comparable to. also your take that his 6-pitch mix with great command and mid 90s velo wasn’t #1 caliber stuff.

here, i put together some comps for you.

first year as a full-time starter, ages 22-24:

Sale (23): 29gs, 6.6ip/gs, 72era-, 77fip-, 78xfip-, 3.31siera, 5.0war/32gs
Stroman (23): 20gs, 6.0ip/gs, 84era-, 73fip-, 84xfip-, 3.21siera, 4.8war/32g
Syndergaard (22): 13gs, 6.1ip/gs, 83era-, 75fip-, 84xfip-, 3.14siera, 4.7war/32gs
Gray (23): 10gs, 6.0ip/gs, 73era-, 73fip-, 76xfip-, 3.13siera, 4.5war/32gs

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

The big difference was Swihert was a first round pick. He was a bit more polished behind the plate, but their overall skill sets and future ceilings (defensively) are very similar. Both have + arms, and are good athletes who move well side to side. Both are big bodied.

First round picks, for obvious reasons and sometime erroneous ones, get the benefit of the doubt; mainly because of their raw tools. In this case, I don’t see much of a skill set difference between the two.

Speaking of first round picks with unwarranted prospect rankings… do we really have to look at Mark Appel in the top 50 again next year? At what point does actual productivity outweigh your pedigree?

jdbolickMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

The big difference was Swihert was a first round pick. He was a bit more polished behind the plate, but their overall skill sets and future ceilings (defensively) are very similar. Both have + arms, and are good athletes who move well side to side. Both are big bodied.

Please let this go, as they are not at all similar. Nottingham is significantly bigger and thicker, while slower and less agile in his movements. As noted, he stabs at pitches and lunges with his upper body whereas Swihart has the proper technique in sliding his lower body. They look nothing alike behind the plate.

Speaking of first round picks with unwarranted prospect rankings… do we really have to look at Mark Appel in the top 50 again next year? At what point does actual productivity outweigh your pedigree?

On that we agree: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/capitalizing-on-the-astros-success/#comment-5042798

state the obvious
11 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

his first year in rookie league he was above average. i don’t think its crazy to put a 55 FV on him. double A is a distinct possibility by the end of the year for a 20 year old catcher.

jdbolickMember since 2016
11 years ago

double A is a distinct possibility by the end of the year

He won’t be in AA this season, and being above average in rookie league is like being above average in a small collegiate conference. If Nottingham continues to drive the ball and his strikeout rate doesn’t get back up to his Greeneville level then that’s great, but wouldn’t you agree that the people getting excited are reacting solely to his numbers? People are going to similarly overrate Javier Guerra, a shortstop in Boston’s system who is currently putting up massive numbers. I watched Guerra in person this past Sunday and I don’t care what his numbers are, the guy I saw will not be able to hit at the major league level due to the nature of his swing. His hips fly open, his eyes are too far in front, his hands drop too much, and he ends up trying to pull everything. More advanced pitchers are going to eat him alive.

My concerns about Nottingham are nowhere near that acute, but I do see things that make me believe that he won’t be able to keep up this level of performance at higher levels without further adjustments. Significant weight transfer from the back to the front foot rather than staying balanced makes timing and pitch recognition essential. It can work, but it narrows the margin for error.

Rational Fan
11 years ago

agree with you bolick, think there’s next to no possibility he’ll be in AA this year.

Catchers already progress slowly through the system as they have a lot more to pick up, and it would be in his best interest to continue his success at A+ this year, bring that confidence into next year which he’ll probably start at AA and be one of the youngest players at the level.

busy scouting t-ball
11 years ago

Beane is aggressive with prospect promotion. If the bat isnt challenged in a month he could get a week taste of AA.

state the obvious
11 years ago

My point was it is not exactly out of nowhere that he is hitting now. He flashed it before with just his raw tools out of h.s. if his technique is his biggest flaw behind the plate i would remind you that is the easiest fix. An adjustment and more reps will bring fluidity.

Damaso
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

I agree.

The upside is enormous and his performance is elite this year. He finishes the year strong and he should be in contention for top-50 ranks imo.

Lots of smart folks agree with you
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

A lot of the young prospects traded for, over the past 12-18 months, by the best GM’s in the game (AA, Silverman, Freidman, Beane, ect) have been lower rated than was expected for the player traded, but almost all of them had excellent current year statistics (generally young for level and the current year is both excellent and their first decent or good season). Boog/Robertson was considered a low return but Boog has turned into an excellent player that is borderline FV50 (10 pts higher than at time of trade) Anyone else notice this? I know it’s nothing new to want these qualities (fastest increasing prospect stocks are found here) but it seems to be the focus of all these guys in particular while the rest of baseball is noticeably not going for these players.

I definitely think Beane (and others) probably have Nottingham as a FV50 and a top 50-70 prospect. I don’t know what I think but young catchers hitting like this are definitely worth something. It will be interesting to see Kiley’s updated list (if he does it) to see where a lot of these recently traded players rank.

Haney24
11 years ago

The A’s have seen both prospects up close frequently since they have affiliates in those leagues (Stockton and Beloit). The A’s have traded for (Wendle) or drafted (Pinder, Martin and White) lots of middle IFs so Kemp is a bit redundant. Phillips was probably first target but ‘Stros wisely said no. I think it’s good for both teams on the whole.

Catoblepas
11 years ago

Good lord do I love the combination of KATOH and scouting in this article. FanGraphs GOAT

Alex K
11 years ago

Is Nottingham at all similar to Josh Donaldson? Or do the similarities stop with him being an A-ball catcher who is projected to hit?

state the obvious
11 years ago
Reply to  Alex K

donaldson was a college pick. so the fact that hes showing more at a younger age puts him ahead of donaldsons age curve

jdbolickMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  Alex K

That’s pretty much it. Their swings are not similar, while Donaldson showed superior walk and strikeout rates in the minor leagues.

Alex K
11 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

That’s what I figured. But I had literally never heard of this guy until today.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

as he should have, given that he was a more polished prospect coming out of college opposed to High School.

Delwyn
11 years ago

Wasn’t I just the top comp on someone else’s list?

jdbolickMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  Delwyn
Kris
11 years ago

Any A’s fan that is down on this trade should hit the pause button. As an Astros fan, I think they paid way too much for 2 months of Kazmir and get nothing if he walks.

First of all, both players are athletic which decreases their likelihood of washing out.

With Nottingham, other than Correa, McCullers, Velasquez, Phillips and Appel, I would have preferred to see any other player dealt than him. I might have still called it an overpay it was Feliz or Reed, but you don’t trade catchers that can hold their own behind the dish and can rake. That’s like saying you don’t like lefties that throw in upper 90s. And just as rare.

Mendgen has done nothing but perform since he got drafted, but it’s a little less painful with guys like Feliz, Appel, Hader, Musgrove, Martes, Paulino and Bostick likely ahead of him in the pecking order. And all of them younger, except Appel.

state the obvious
11 years ago
Reply to  Kris

i think it was an overpay by the astros.

slm
11 years ago

It was an overpay because you have to give something up to grease the wheels. Their system is loaded either way.
I’m not an Astros fan, but they’re a legitimate world series contender. They owe it to themselves and the fans, and a deep playoff run would have benefits (both financial and baseball) for them going forward.

Tim
11 years ago
Reply to  slm

Costs are higher in the division.

Kris
11 years ago
Reply to  slm

Exactly Tim, which is why I was hoping the Stros would not go after Kaz.

They were going to have to pay a premium to get Kaz from Beane in favor of other places like Toronto and they did.

Nottingham is going to be a stud.

Bert
11 years ago

Even if you buy into the Nottingham breakout this year, the return is still light for Kazmir. The Astros got a lot better while giving up nothing they will miss. The A’s got what seems to be the typical A’s return in trades lately, trading for multiple C level prospects hoping one of them takes a big step forward.

Dick Trickle
11 years ago

Nottingham sounds like a special player.