Calculating Ian Kennedy’s Negative Trade Value

At 49-51, 8 1/2 games out of first place, the Royals sound like they realize they’re probably not contenders this year, and with a few days to go before the trade deadline, they’re now listening to offers for their best trade chips. Given the price of relievers these days, Wade Davis is pretty clearly their most valuable asset, and the Royals could expect to get back a significant haul for him, given that he’s also under contract for 2017.

But according to Jeff Passan, the team might be looking to use Davis to do something besides add young talent to the organization.

So that’s an interesting idea. By tying Kennedy to Davis, the price in talent would come down, which would likely make a deal more appealing to a team like LA — we’ve seen the Dodgers take on plenty of dead-money deals in order to acquire or retain prospects in previous trades — and would give the Royals the flexibility to reallocate Kennedy’s money to other free agents this winter, which would allow them to essentially make a trade for 2017 assets instead of prospects who might not be able to help before the rest of their core players hit free agency.

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On the surface, the idea makes some sense, but it also brings up a question; how much negative value does Kennedy have at this point? How much of a discount on the talent portion of the trade would the Royals have to give in order to free themselves from the rest of Kennedy’s deal? Let’s do the math.

Over the winter, the Royals signed Kennedy to a five year, $70 million contract that was as shocking as it was ill-advised. And, unfortunately for Kennedy’s trade value, they backloaded the contract, as they have done with almost of their free agent contracts the last few years, so barely any of that guaranteed money has been paid as of yet.

Kennedy’s 2016 salary is just $7.5 million, so since we’re about 60% of the way through the season, he’d been paid $4.5 million of that, and is due about $3 million over the rest of the season. The salary jumps to $13.5 million next year, then $16 million in 2018, and $16.5 million in each of the final two years of the deal. That means that any team trading for Kennedy at this point would be taking on about $66 million of the $70 million the Royals paid him, and because of the backloaded nature of the deal, Kennedy’s opt-out is basically irrelevant; he’s not walking away from the final $50 million of the deal after next season.

So it’s $66 million for 4.5 years of control of a 31-year-old with a pretty gnarly home run problem, and one who has been pretty terrible for the last few months. Since getting off to a hot start, Kennedy has imploded recently; since May 12th, he’s made 14 starts, putting up a 5.54 ERA/6.17 FIP/4.54 xFIP. Pitchers like Kennedy — ones who live at the top of the strike zone — have been particularly crushed by the surge in home run rate, and since Kennedy is one of the most extreme flyball starters in the game, the current dinger-fest environment essentially wipes out all the value he gets from controlling the strike zone.

His current combination of skills make him nothing more than an innings sponge, a guy you can pencil in as your fifth starter during the regular season if you don’t have better options but not someone you want to put on the mound in the postseason. But that’s clearly not worth $66 million, especially since Kennedy is probably headed towards the end of his career.

If we take the current projections for Kennedy’s future value and run them through our contract estimating tool, Kennedy’s future value looks something like this.

Ian Kennedy’s Contract Estimate — 4 yr / $26.6 M
Year Age WAR $/WAR Est. Contract
2017 32 1.5 $8.4 M $12.6 M
2018 33 1.0 $8.8 M $8.8 M
2019 34 0.5 $9.3 M $4.6 M
2020 35 0.0 $9.7 M $0.5 M
Totals 3.0 $26.6 M

Assumptions

Value: $8M/WAR with 5.0% inflation
Aging Curve: +0.25 WAR/yr (18-27), 0 WAR/yr (28-30),-0.5 WAR/yr (31-37),-0.75 WAR/yr (> 37)

During 2017-2020, when Kennedy’s contract calls for him to be paid $62.5 million, he’s projected to be worth $26.6 million, a $36 million deficit relative to his contract. That’s a pretty big liability.

Of course, that’s not the whole story of Kennedy’s value, since that ignores the rest of 2016; at just $3 million and as an arm who provides depth, at least, he does have a little bit of value in a market where teams are starved for guys who can throw the ball. Even with his current struggles, Kennedy has some value above and beyond his minimal remaining 2016 salary. Let’s be generous and say he’s got $6 million in positive value remaining for 2016, mostly due to the current market for available arms; that puts his overall value at about $30 million in dead money over the remainder of his contract.

To put that in prospect terms, $30 million is roughly equivalent to the value teams are paying to acquire middle-of-the-top-100 types. The Royals top prospect, Raul Mondesi, happens to have been ranked #55 on the recent mid-season Baseball America Top 100, so you could think of Kennedy as having roughly as much negative value as Mondesi has positive value. If the Royals were tying Kennedy and Mondesi together, instead of Kennedy and Davis, we’d expect that teams would consider taking the pair if they didn’t have to give up anything in return, assuming teams value Mondesi at the same level he’s being ranked on public prospect lists.

So if you package Kennedy with Davis, that’s the kind of player you’re taking out of the return. Given what Ken Giles, Craig Kimbrel, and Aroldis Chapman brought back in trades recently, the Royals are certainly justified in believing that Davis is worth a lot more than just one mid-top-100 prospect, so they’d almost certainly still be demanding some real talent back as well as forcing the Dodgers (or other interested buyers) to relieve them of Kennedy’s contract, but with a $30 million anchor attached, the talent return would certainly be less than each of those three commanded.

If the Royals are willing to concede that Kennedy’s roughly a $30 million liability, and agree to remove one of the primary trade chips from the deal in order to clear his contract from their books, then a deal could make sense for both sides.

But there’s also a catch that I’d think makes this idea unlikely to work with LA specifically; the luxury tax. As a team over that’s been well over the luxury tax threshold for years now, the Dodgers now pay a 50% tax on all big league salaries over the threshold, so when you factor in the money they’d have to pay to the league, Kennedy would actually cost them $99 million over the next four years, not $66 million, assuming they stayed over the luxury tax threshold for each of those seasons.

Even with the Dodgers financial resources, it’s almost impossible to imagine them valuing Davis highly enough to agree to take on $100 million in payments that would come with accepting Kennedy’s contract onto their books. And since the Royals aren’t going to be factoring in the luxury tax payments in how much they’ll save, there will be a mismatch of value between what the Royals are dumping and the Dodgers would be acquiring. With those luxury tax payments factored in, I don’t see how the two teams bridge the gap, getting to a point where both sides felt like this was a deal worth making.

Tying Kennedy to Davis is an interesting idea, but if the Royals are set on doing that, they’re probably better off trading the pair to a team that won’t have to pay a tax for taking on the money. Davis is a valuable trade chip, but he’s not worth paying $100 million for the right to watch Ian Kennedy decline even further.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

79 Comments
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dl80Member since 2026
9 years ago

Wouldn’t the Royals be better off keeping Kennedy for now and hoping that he rebounds at some point in the next 4 years enough to either a) be useful to them or b) net some kind of return or at least cost less to get rid of?

As it is, the Royals would save almost nothing this year or next, and by the time he’s in the last couple years of the deal, there is less money remaining, so he may be easier to get rid of.

Or they work to try to get him to stop throwing so high in the zone.

free-range turducken
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Too bad they couldn’t package him and Young to the Reds. Just for shits and giggles.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

If he stopped throwing high, he may just lose all his strikeouts and become sub-replacement. Some pitchers really should throw high, Estrada, Chris Young come to mind. It depends.

Why should they have any hope he will bounce back? He’s not an under-performing prospect, he’s a 31-year-old pitcher. Best case scenario is he rebounds to about the value of his contract, at which point he is still not a valuable trade chip. He might even get worse, and trading him now might be dodging a bullet.

dl80Member since 2026
9 years ago
Reply to  Bip

I think that’s very fair, that he may get worse. But he’s also going to (eventually) be owed less money. The question is, will he get more worse than he gets less money owed? Plus, as the Royals have no real replacement, keeping him as an innings eater in the hopes that the home runs come down (which is really the only thing keeping him from being better than average) seems as good as giving up a huge asset (Davis) for little real return other than saving some money.

And while saving money has value, why would we assume that them putting it back into more free agents will somehow work out better next offseason?

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

I think there are likely benefits to saving money that go beyond signing more free agents. But, in any case, if Ian Kennedy is about the worst case scenario for a free agent signing, then yeah, freeing up his money and trying again will probably work out better.

backward galaxy
9 years ago
Reply to  Bip

I’m not saying it’s a realistic comp by any stretch of the imagination, but there are examples of veteran pitchers who were basically out of the league who came back and were valuable. Scott Kazmir and Rich Hill come to mind. These are probably not hopes one should cling to or expect, but it’s not totally unheard of.

Cidron
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

He has about as much a chance to bounceback as an anvil. He is a well known commodity thru the years. 31 going on 32…. it isnt bounceback, its decline that is in his future. He couldnt do it in San Diego (pitchers park), he isnt doing it in KC (another pitchers park due to defense). What makes anybody think he will do it in LA? If I am LA, I am staying away for the noted reasons in the article, plus my comment. I dont see this trade happening.

dl80Member since 2026
9 years ago
Reply to  Cidron

San Diego is not really a pitcher’s park any more. It was slightly below average last year and slightly above average this year, with home runs actually higher than average last year and slightly lower this year. It’s pretty close to average, actually.

Kansas City does repress homers quite a bit, and he’s not likely to end up anywhere better for that. But he’s allowed 18 homers in 66 innings on the road and only 8 in 47 innings at home.

Now even 8 in 47 innings isn’t great, but not as bad as he’s done on the road. He’s allowed 2 HRs in LAA and Citi Field, with 3 in Yankee Stadium, and 4 in US Cellular, all in 17-25 at bats.

For what it’s worth, those three parks are 1, 5, and 6 in terms of increasing home runs this year. Probably nothing, but perhaps Kennedy’s home runs will not stay at what is likely an unprecedented level for a guy with his strikeouts and hits allowed.

raws
9 years ago
Reply to  Cidron

His SIERA was 3.5/3.6ish in San Diego. I think he was “doing it”, in terms of performing close to his 2011 ceiling.

Also, Kennedy’s exit velocity is higher on stuff low in the zone. I don’t know what is causing that 17% HR/FB rate, but it is even scarier now that he is allowing more flyballs.

KCDaveInLA
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

His contract structure makes it where the last two years are only slightly less of an albatross than they are now. Realistically, Kennedy was signed in the hopes that Kaufman and the Royals’ outfield defense would minimize his home-run-giving tendencies, but neither of those things have helped a great deal. Almost anywhere else the problem is amplified, and will definitely not get better in Dodger Staduim.

If this happens, getting Jose Deleon and Alex Verdugo would be pretty sweet.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  KCDaveInLA

It’s pretty unlikely Davis alone would get both of those guys, and certainly not if Kennedy is included.

Jason BMember since 2017
9 years ago
Reply to  Bip

Even with the crazy-high premium being attached to top relievers, I don’t think Davis alone is enough to net the Royals DeLeon; they are definitely getting nowhere near DeLeon with Kennedy’s anchor of a contract packaged into the deal.

Mahoney
9 years ago

What if the Angels offered Pujols plus half of his future salary for Kennedy straight up?

The Angels would get much further under the luxury tax limit (while the Royals would remain far off), and have some payroll to add actual major-league players to Trout. Pujols might be willing to waive his no-trade clause to go home to KC and be the DH for a team still fresh from a WS ring.

Alex K
9 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

This idea is so interesting. I wonder if the Angels would have to eat a little more than half as to actually save the Royals some money, though. Otherwise it seems like it doesn’t do quite enough for them.

Besides that small tweak I think this makes tons of sense for both teams.

Shirtless George Brett
9 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

Why wouldn’t the Angles trade Pujols for someone useful??

I mean if they really wanted to trade him and were willing to pay half his salary I’m sure they could find a better return than Ian Kennedy. hell giving him away for nothing is almost better return than Ian Kennedy if all they are looking to do is get under the tax.

bjsguess
9 years ago

The Angels couldn’t give Pujols away. Nobody is touching that contract … not by a long shot. If they could dump Pujols on anyone it would have happened already.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

I’m not sure I see the logic in this. If my math is right, Pujols has about 150 million left on his contract, so cutting that in half would come out to 75 million. Even if they ate the other half, that would mean the Royals would be giving away Kennedy and his 66 million in exchange for Pujols and his 75 million. KC would actually be taking on money to get rid of Kennedy, and while the Angels would take a step back from the luxury tax it would be so small it would almost be neglibable. Maybe the Angels could eat a little more money to make the cash exchange even, but then the Angels wouldn’t be saving anything at all. So I’m just not sure this makes sense.

Mahoney
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

To be honest with you, I don’t know if salary being paid to a player on another team’s roster counts toward the luxury tax or not. I was assuming that it didn’t, which would mean the Angels get the benefit of dropping from Pujols’ $28m per year to Kennedy’s $16.5m per year. But I could be totally wrong about that.

The other interesting thing about your post is that if you look at the deal as just a switch of future salaries, and that the value has to be equal, then that implies that you are assuming that the two players will contribute equal value on the field going forward. If you think that Pujols is worth more than Kennedy going forward, or vice versa (the jury of commenters looks split right now), you would expect the amount of future money owed to reflect that difference. Of course, the only way this kind of deal could happen in real life with rational decision makers is for the Royals to value Pujols unusually high and the Angels to value Kennedy unusually high. Otherwise, the same bias that led each team to sign these guys in the first place will lead them each to perceive that their guy has the greater value, making the deal a non-starter.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

Ah, I see what you were thinking, then. Unfortunately, all salaries on a team’s books count toward the luxury tax. (As a Dodger fan, that was one of the big questions I had when Kemp was dealt.)

And you’re right about the players contributing some positive vale – that does need to be factored into the equation. I guess I just figure that each of their positives is so slim that it won’t really amount to much. Sure, Kennedy could rebound, but he’s a pretty crummy, aging player at a position that’s known for breaking down. Likewise, while Pujols will probably stay in the black the next few years, as he pushes on 40 it’s not crazy to think he could put up at least a few below replacement seasons and ultimately give back any good he might’ve done leading up to there.

So, yea, maybe one of those front offices will see something in the other guy, but I don’t think there’s enough there at the moment for it to be tenable.

ShauncoreMember since 2019
9 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

KC is likely to be rebuilding soon. They don’t need to be taking on a 36 year old DH/1B type who is still owed $75M. That contract alone would be the largest in Royals history and if they somehow found themselves in contention in 2019/2020, it would be a huge barrier.

HamelinROY
9 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

Assuming they were taking on Kennedy’s contract, this year and 2021 are the only year they would save money. If you are saying they wouldn’t take on Kennedy’s contract, no way would the Royals do that.

AnonMember since 2025
9 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

You can debate that deal if you like but as you note, Pujols has a full no-trade clause. Since he grew up in KC, it would be interesting to see if he’d waive it but I bet he wouldn’t no matter who was on the other end. Players ask for a no-trade clause for a reason – they don’t want to move around any more.

The HammererMember since 2018
9 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

23 people agree with you??? Never ever ever ever in real baseball will a trade like this happen. The inability to understand metrics in the context of the real world is what keeps you fangraphians from ever evaluating properly.

LieutKaffeeMember since 2016
9 years ago

Isn’t Davis’s positive value less than Kennedy’s negative value? Why would they get any prospect whatsoever for this package?

Shirtless George Brett
9 years ago
Reply to  LieutKaffee

Did you see what half a season of Aroldis Chapman just commanded? Wade Davis is Chapman-lite with 1 more year of control.

Kennedy is bad, but he isnt that bad. The Royals would and should still demand substantial value in return.

showerdeer
9 years ago

The Cubs were uniquely positioned to value Chapman that much. Wouldn’t be surprised if other teams knew this and nudged the price up as a result. Kennedy is pretty bad and any team that would pay for Davis probably won’t want him taking a roster spot and would need to flip him while eating some of his contract.

Travis LMember since 2016
9 years ago

Some teams may see him as Chapman lite, some teams may see him as Greg Holland in 2014.

The Real McNulty
9 years ago

Cameron, don’t fall in with the “backloading is bad for the team” crowd, please

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago

Once the cheap part of the contract has played out, the remaining contract is worse than if the same contract were not backloaded. Since we are often talking about players traded part way through contracts, that is more relevant than the pros and cons of signing the backloaded contract in the first place.

timmer
9 years ago

I read it the same way as you at first, but he really didn’t. He said it was unfortunate “for Kennedy’s trade value”, not unfortunate for the Royals.

Concerned Reader John
9 years ago

He meant it in the sense that – all else being equal – owing him him $62.5mm after this season is worse than owing him $56mm after this season.

The Real McNulty
9 years ago

my point is that it, from the Royals’ perspective, the structuring of the contract has no effect on their return (outside of the benefits from the time value of money) The Royals know they’ve “saved” money on the front part, which can be used to offset the higher salary.

tippie
9 years ago

The Royals made their bed with Kennedy. His contract looks bad now, but it will be horribly bad for 2018 when Hosmer, Cain, Moustakas, and Dyson all hit the FA market.

alang3131982Member since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  tippie

Eh- none of those guys are that great anyway.

Shirtless George Brett
9 years ago
Reply to  alang3131982

Dyson is irrelevant but Hosmer, Cain and Moustakas are good players. Hosmer is a top 10 hitting first baseman, Moustakas is an above avg 3B and Cain has been one of the most valuable players in MLB the past 2 1/2 years.

LHPSU
9 years ago

Among qualified hitters, Eric Hosmer has been the 10th best hitting first baseman from 2015-2016.

Out of 19 qualified hitters.

dl80Member since 2026
9 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

And Moustakas was worth 4.4 WAR from 2014-2015, putting him at 14th and just about exactly at average. With a 102 WRC+ and a small amount of defensive value (4 per year), he’s almost the definition of an average third basemen.

Cain, on the other hand, is quite good, and has been the 4th best CF by WAR over the past year and a half.

Shirtless George Brett
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

And Moustakas was worth 4.4 WAR from 2014-2015, putting him at 14th and just about exactly at average.

I was more grading Moustakas on his recent performance (3.8 WAR last year) and his projection for this year (2.5 WAR). Through his first 27 games this year before he got hurt he had already accumulated 0.7 WAR. Which puts him on pace for ~4 WAR again (I know, I know. Not a good way to project).

I think he is above average but I have no problem calling him average either. Regardless an average 3B is still what I would call a “good player.”

Concerned Reader John
9 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Hosmer’s also below average defensively, despite his gold gloves.

Jason BMember since 2017
9 years ago

“But gold gloves tho!” – Raffy Palmeiro, after playing 28 games at 1B

“Co-sign!” – Derek Jeter

Shirtless George Brett
9 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Well thats some nice cherry picking. If you go back to 2013 there are 44 qualified 1B and Hosmer ranks 15th in wRC+ (115) and is only a few % points below 10th. It is entirely realistic to say he is a top 10 hitting 1B.

More to the point, I dont really follow your logic though. You are saying that Hosmer is less valuable because he is an above average hitter at a very shallow position?

There are 30 teams in baseball and over a third of them dont even have a 1B good enough to play everyday. I would think that someone who can play every day and post well above average numbers (115 wRC+) at the plate would classify as a pretty good option. It seems like there are probably at least 11 teams that would agree.

I dont see how there only being 19 qualified 1B somehow diminishes Hosmer. It still means he is a better hitter than ~70% of guys playing 1B. Unless you think there is an abundance of great hitting 1B who teams just refuse to play.

LHPSU
9 years ago

2015-2016 was picked because that’s the only way Eric Hosmer ends up in the top 10. Also because picking the two most recent seasons is a lot less arbitrary then going back to 2013 but not 2012 or 2014.

And, well, saying that “there are 11 teams that would love to have him” is pretty much as backhanded a compliment as you can give.

Average is perfectly good and well. Hosmer is neither more nor less than that.

Shirtless George Brett
9 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Again though, even using 2015-2016, how does the lack of qualified 1B make Hosmer’s 10th overall any less valid??

Like I said, unless you believe that there is an abundance of 1B who would be better than him that teams are just not playing (which makes no sense) then the fact that there is only 19 qualified hitters really doesn’t mean anything. He is still in the top 3rd of hitters at his position. The fact that the bottom 3rd are so bad that they dont qualify is irrelevant. Regardless of how many are qualified there are 30 first base positions in MLB. And Hosmer has been a better hitter than 20 of them. Just because 11 of them arent qualified doenst mean they no longer exist.

Even if you drop the PA’s to only 400 for that time period Hosmer is still 13th overall in wRC+ (out of a field of 44 players) and only 4% behind 10th.

Average is perfectly good and well. Hosmer is neither more nor less than that.

he has posted a wRC+ of 119 since 2015. By the very definition of wRC+ that is 19% above average.

You arent making a whole lot of sense here.

Concerned Reader John
9 years ago

But first basemen are expected to be more than above average hitters. Since 2013 (arbitrary I know!), 94 players have had a qualifying number of plate appearances as a first basemen. The median seasons were Todd Frazier in 2014 with a wRC+ of 121 and Eric Hosmer in 2013 with a wRC+ of 120. Roughly average offense for his position plus below average defense and baserunning. He’s averaged just over 1 WAR per season in 5+ seasons. He’s average. It’s fine.

Shirtless George Brett
9 years ago

I think your numbers are a bit flawed there. Todd Frazier made only 37 starts a 1B in 2014. He made 118 at 3B. How is he a qualified 1B?

You seem to be including a WHOLE bunch of guys who didnt really play 1B that much and counting them as 1B.

In reality, only 44 guys qualified as actual 1B in that time period.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=1b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2016&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=4,d

Even if you accept that 1B, as a group, are expected to be better offensively, Eric Hosmer has still been a better hitter than 70% of that group since 2015. That is not average by any definition I’m aware off.

Concerned Reader John
9 years ago

He’s got 0.1 WAR this season. One-tenth of a win above replacement level. I’ve spent far too longer thinking about Eric Hosmer on the comments section of an article that’s not even about Eric Hosmer.

MarsupialJones
9 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Among qualified hitters, Eric Hosmer has been the 10th best hitting first baseman from 2015-2016.

Out of 19 qualified hitters.

The fact that this horribly illogical post got a dozen thumbs up and 0 thumbs down makes me concerned for fangraphs readership.

LHPSU seems to be operating under the assumption that because their are only 19 qualified firstbasemen that means that being 10th is below average (because 10th is more than 50% of 19). Only this makes zero sense because there are 30 first base positions in baseball. Its not 10 out of 19 its still 10 out of 30.

You are better than this Fangraphs commenters.

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  MarsupialJones

You are making things up about other people’s posts and coming to conclusions based entirely on figments of your imagination.

Manute Bol sings better than this
9 years ago
Reply to  MarsupialJones

Jones marsupial

31 minutes, 50 seconds ago

· Necessary scorer Eric Hosmer hit basemankuva years 2015-2016, ten.

Type 19 countries.

These reactions are very illogical gate 10 and the 1-0 thumb thumb disease has touched my fangraphs readers.

LHPSU because they are law enforcement 1910, assuming an average run firstbasemen down (more than 10% of 19-50). Because it can not be 301 letters baseball promised zero. 30,191,010.

Fangraphs.

rockbardMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  MarsupialJones

Eric Hosmer has 6.9 WAR since 2013 on over 2,000 PAs. That works out to about 1.8 WAR/600 PA, which is a reasonable estimate for a full season. According to this site, 1-2 WAR means he’s a Role Player, tending to be a Solid Starter. I’d say he’s average, maybe a bit below average, and that he is overrated by some Royals fans because of some of his postseason antics. There’s nothing wrong with being average, the Royals most probably will be able to find someone to play first base, filling the void left by Hosmer rather easily. That’s as much as I want to spend talking about a player I loathe.

KCDaveInLA
9 years ago

Truth is, Hosmer’s perceived value is greatly elevated by some terrific moments. If you follow him on a day-to-day basis, he is so inconsistent. He goes into prolonged slumps, and even his hot streaks are muted by a lack of real power.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  alang3131982

Let’s look at this another way: Since 2015, the Royals are 12th in WAR and 8th in wRC+ out of 30 teams from the 1st base position at 3.6, 0.4 above #15. Incredibly, it seems that Hosmer is responsible for exactly 100% of their playing time at that position over that time. So, he has been the 12th best 1st base situation in baseball. Should he get a bonus for never getting hurt and apparently requiring no time off? Perhaps.

EDIT: Disregard this comment. The fangraphs leaderboard does something really weird when you select a positional filter on the team leaderboard. For example. I think the Giants total includes all of Buster Posey’s stats. I’ll have to come up with another way to get this.

BigChief
9 years ago
Reply to  Bip

The positional tabs filters by the listed position of the player. If you want to see how a team has done for a specific position, use the splits drop down.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=c,6,34,35,36,21,37,38,39,40,53,41,52,51,50,54,65&season=2016&month=36&season1=2015&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

Mahoney
9 years ago
Reply to  BigChief

Assuming that the positional filters are working mostly ok, it’s clear that Hosmer’s 119 wRC+ is above average for 1B (though not 19% over):

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=1b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2016&month=0&season1=2015&ind=0&team=0,ss&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

Bip, I think you’re onto a key point here. Hosmer might rank below the median in wRC+ among qualified 1B, but if you factor in all the guys who are part-time/fill-in/failed first basemen the average offensive performance goes down, which makes sense. So if Hosmer chugs along playing close to 162 games every season, he saves you from having to use those second-tier 1B. Being an “innings eater” probably does have some value for position players too.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  BigChief

BigChief has found what I was originally trying to get. Thank you BigChief.

rauce1
9 years ago
Reply to  tippie

Don’t forget Danny Duffy 🙁 … Hosmer is probably the only one from that group that the team should want to extend for 4 or 5 years (assuming the team/player can meet in the reasonable middle).

Shirtless George Brett
9 years ago

Maybe this was Moore’s plan all along? Take a flyer on Kennedy with the assumption that if they aren’t contenders he will just trade him away at the deadline for whatever. As we have seen in the past no contract is truly untradeable.

Its a terrible contract for sure but what if Moore never really intended to pay more a few months of it?

(I’m not saying this is a good plan but at least it makes Kenndys contract a little more logical?)

rosen380
9 years ago

“As we have seen in the past no contract is truly untradeable.”

A contract that is only untradeable if you basically throw away a shitload of cash or valuable players, I think is still untradeable.

Sure, the Angels got out of that Mo Vaughn contract, but only by taking back a similarly bad contract with Appier

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  rosen380

If I paid someone $100 to dispose of my old car, I don’t think I can say that I managed to sell it.

Shirtless George Brett
9 years ago
Reply to  rosen380

Like I said, I’m not saying its a good plan. I’m just trying to find some explanation to giving Kennedy that contract.

LHPSU
9 years ago

Maybe he expected Kennedy to be better with the Royals, maybe starting pitcher prices were just high and he got pressured into making a bad deal. Misjudgments happen all the time and he’s got plenty of company regarding this past offseason’s free agent pitchers.

Arjon
9 years ago

Is Moore dumb enough to make a poor plan like that? The b/e for $70mm over 5 years is less than 2 WAR per year. Maybe it wasn’t the hugest leap ever to think that in KC’s park and with their defence, Kennedy could deliver that after providing 2.5, 0.6, 3.5 and 0.8 from 2012 thru 2015.

Not saying it was a good bet, just maybe not as bad as it has turned out.

Grammer Police
9 years ago

You’re grossly misusing the expression “take a flyer”

Fernando
9 years ago

I don’t think his plan was to take on a bad contract that could only be moved by either eating a ton of money or by packaging it with a much better contract, thus erasing most of the latter’s value.

JeremyMember since 2016
9 years ago

If the Dodgers want to throw their financial weight around, don’t they have to be willing to eat the extra luxury tax? Kennedy may cost them more in dollars than he would for a team under the threshold, but the value of the actual dollars could be considered to be less to LA than to KC, no?

Travis LMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy

It’s the opportunity cost concept that matters here, not the relative value of dollars between teams. The Dodgers may well be willing to take on salary, but Kennedy is a lot of salary for the return. LAD can spend their money better elsewhere.

mattMember since 2023
9 years ago

Think those projections are optimistic, have nothing against projections but think he will roughly be replacement level going forward. Kennedy is probably hurt with whatever is making this HR binge happen *cough juiced up baseballs cough*. His hard hit % has sky rocketed since 2014.

nolefan5311
9 years ago

I doubt anybody can answer this, but why are the Dodgers seriously considering acquiring Davis? They have one of the better bullpens in baseball and are a handful of games away from taking a lead in the division. Davis would be a luxury, and certainly not a luxury that would justify taking on Kennedy’s god awfulness.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  nolefan5311

I think you’re asking two different things. Davis might be a luxury for an already-good Dodgers bullpen, but if he can replace one of the weaker arms at the back of the pen then suddenly one of their strengths gets even stronger. It goes to the idea that if you want to improve you don’t necessarily have to focus on upgrading a weakness.

As to whether or not Davis is worth taking on Kennedy’s contract, I think that’s a much more pertinent question. And to that I agree with Dave’s conclusion above, that the Dodgers probably wouldn’t go that route.

Greg
9 years ago

If you held a gun to the GM of the team I follows head, and said “either pay me $30 million dollars or take on Ian Kennedy’s contract.” that dude is shelling out the cash.

My point being, this is being overly generous to Ian Kennedy (2.5 WAR over the next two seasons). He probably wouldn’t fetch 1/$13 or 2/$21 on the open market this offseason.

BABIP .260, LOB% 82.0%. Beating FIP by a run, when he’s never done that in the past. Looks like a 5+ ERA pitcher moving forward, especially when the velocity and K/9 decline.

There’s very real consequences of having this guy hold a roster spot the next four years, especially for a contender. If a team acquires him they better be willing to cut him loose and eat the remainder of that contract as soon as next year. I think its fair to say at this rate he probably isn’t on a ML roster in 2019, Or at the very least, I doubt a team looking to win ballgames in 2019 is running him out there every fifth day.

I think the perceived negative value could very well exceed $30 million.

Slappytheclown
9 years ago

Polishing the Ian Kennedy Turd.

Let’s look at the positives at Ian Kennedy and how we could possibly polish this turd. One, he’s been relatively healthy since 2010. Two, his fastball has positive value and currently sits at about 92MPH as a starter. Is it completely out of the realm of possible that you could pull a Blanton/Wade Davis move and put him in the Pen? His sOPS+ first time through is 86, 2nd time 90, 3rd time 139. His first innings have been ugly, but that’s the case for a lot of SPs as they ‘warm up’. His 2nd IP is actually his best this year overall, 3IP is next, 4IP next, then things get ugly again.

So, move to RP he adds a few MPH on a fastball that’s already +, have him come out throwing gas, drop one of either the curve or slider and have him refine just one of those and *poof* you’ve got a .5 to 1 WAR Reliever? It won’t completely make up for the $16mil back end of his contract, but hey if you can squeeze 1 WAR out oh him from the Pen then maybe it’s something. And I think he could make that transition quite well. Done, turd polished.

Mahoney
9 years ago
Reply to  Slappytheclown

Now I’m wondering what the Angels would have to add to Pujols to get this polished turd.

Sooted72
9 years ago
Reply to  Slappytheclown

lol not bad

venus44Member since 2018
9 years ago

Dave,

Is there a way to download a report that has mlb players home vs right, home vs left, away vs left, away vs right batter stats customized? Or do you have to select each individual player to manually input these stats in an external worksheet?

jim fetterolf
9 years ago

Trading Davis for a strong package of prospects would return enough value to the Royals to at least tolerate Kennedy for another year to see if he rebounds. Royals need prospects to make up for last year’s bad trades much more than salary relief. As bad as Kennedy has been it’s not like anyone is pushing him out of the rotation.

UnitedStatesofMisery
9 years ago

Royals need to sell off everything of value right now and rebuild. All of the current ‘stars’ sans Salvador Perez are in decline and I don’t think they’re good enough to make another playoff run; their starting pitching sure isn’t.

Brad JohnsonMember
9 years ago

The Dodgers aren’t the only team with financial might. Three team trades are tricky, but sometimes they’re the path of least resistance. The Phillies come to mind as a viable partner. They have the payroll space, they could benefit from the rotation depth, and they should be interested in adding more near-majors prospects.

In this scenario, the Dodgers pay the full asking price for Davis, and the Phillies get one of the two good prospects plus Kennedy in the deal.

bglick4
9 years ago

I was thinking of saying that it’s great that one of the Royals bad decisions is finally coming back to haunt them, but then I realized that this hasn’t haunted them yet. They’ll probably dump this terrible contract with Davis for some awful prospect who, in turn, magically becomes the next Mike Trout. These are the Royals we’re talking about. The team that turned bloop hits and mediocre pitching into two world series appearances. I’m thinking this’ll all work out in their favor in the end.

bglick4
9 years ago

I’m surprised that we don’t see more trades with the luxury tax paying teams. They have a liability that is 50% more harmful to them than a team below the lux tax threshold. That’s quite a difference – you would think they would regularly being trying to find some prospect/bad contract trade that would be mutually advantageous. They can get 75% of the value of their prospect/bad contract combo and still make out on the trade.