Can Freddie Freeman Re-Open the 3,000 Hit Club?

Two years ago, I wrote about the imminent demise of the 3,000 Hit Club after Miguel Cabrera became a member. Simply put, it was a question of math. The worse the environment is for hitting for batting average, the fewer players there will be who will put up lofty career hit totals. While it would be easy to think there are simply more lousy hitters these days, as league batting average has dropped in recent decades, the spread in individual batting averages has not increased; great players see lower batting averages when league batting averages decline. But while 2023’s new rules didn’t herald a reversal of the trend, one late entrant in the race for 3,000 hits has continued to excel: Freddie Freeman.
What makes the nadir of the 3,000 Hit Club so jarring to a baseball fan is the newness of this phenomenon. The explosion of offense in the 1990s wasn’t just homers, but batting average as well. Even going back 10 years, there were always a lot of players with career hit totals somewhere north of 2,000.

In 2023, that number is seven, and that’s only because there were four new members this year: Freeman, Jose Altuve, Elvis Andrus, and Andrew McCutchen. (I’m going to go out on a limb and predict that Evan Longoria won’t get 72 hits over the next two weeks.) Contrast that with 2004, which featured 27 active players with 2,000 career hits.
| Player | Career Hits |
|---|---|
| Rafael Palmeiro | 2922 |
| Barry Bonds | 2730 |
| Roberto Alomar | 2724 |
| Craig Biggio | 2639 |
| Fred McGriff | 2490 |
| Julio Franco 프랑코 | 2457 |
| Barry Larkin | 2340 |
| Steve Finley | 2336 |
| Andres Galarraga | 2333 |
| Jeff Bagwell | 2289 |
| B.J. Surhoff | 2248 |
| Edgar Martinez | 2247 |
| Marquis Grissom | 2222 |
| Sammy Sosa | 2220 |
| John Olerud | 2189 |
| Gary Sheffield | 2175 |
| Ken Griffey Jr. | 2156 |
| Omar Vizquel | 2147 |
| Frank Thomas | 2113 |
| Ruben Sierra | 2108 |
| Ellis Burks | 2107 |
| Bernie Williams | 2097 |
| Larry Walker | 2069 |
| Luis Gonzalez | 2057 |
| Ivan Rodriguez | 2051 |
| Kenny Lofton | 2019 |
| Todd Zeile | 2004 |
That brings us back to Freeman. While he was always good at hitting for average throughout his 20s, his hallmark was his year-to-year consistency rather than amassing batting titles. Batting average tends to peak rather early, and Freeman wasn’t at the top of the leaderboards in either hits or batting average over the first decade of his career.
| Name | AVG | H |
|---|---|---|
| Miguel Cabrera | .317 | 1595 |
| Jose Altuve | .315 | 1568 |
| Adrián Beltré | .307 | 1466 |
| Joey Votto | .306 | 1532 |
| Mike Trout | .305 | 1324 |
| Charlie Blackmon | .304 | 1244 |
| Buster Posey | .302 | 1378 |
| DJ LeMahieu | .302 | 1223 |
| Christian Yelich | .301 | 1067 |
| Mookie Betts | .301 | 965 |
| Daniel Murphy | .301 | 1367 |
| Robinson Canó | .300 | 1695 |
| José Martínez | .298 | 344 |
| Michael Brantley | .296 | 1339 |
| Whit Merrifield | .296 | 655 |
| Dustin Pedroia | .296 | 1225 |
| Vladimir Guerrero | .295 | 341 |
| Michael Young | .295 | 713 |
| Nolan Arenado | .295 | 1160 |
| Joe Mauer | .294 | 1279 |
| J.D. Martinez | .294 | 1168 |
| Ryan Braun | .294 | 1410 |
| Corey Seager | .294 | 545 |
| Yuli Gurriel | .293 | 516 |
| Freddie Freeman | .293 | 1451 |
| Troy Tulowitzki | .293 | 931 |
| José Abreu | .293 | 1038 |
| Marco Scutaro | .293 | 628 |
| Paul Goldschmidt | .292 | 1337 |
| David Ortiz | .292 | 1014 |
As noted above, most players see big batting average dips when they cross 30. Even looking just at players who managed 3,000 hits, their batting averages in their 30s were about 20 points lower than their 20s. Freeman didn’t get the memo, however; the three best batting averages of his career have all come within the last four seasons, despite league batting average bottoming out. This year, he’s at .335, arguably a more impressive number than his .341 in the shortened 2020 season.
To see how much progress Freeman has made, I went back and called up his final projected hits in ZiPS before each season of his career:
| Year | Hits |
|---|---|
| 2010 | 1850 |
| 2011 | 2116 |
| 2012 | 2299 |
| 2013 | 2238 |
| 2014 | 2434 |
| 2015 | 2532 |
| 2016 | 2238 |
| 2017 | 2407 |
| 2018 | 2362 |
| 2019 | 2506 |
| 2020 | 2581 |
| 2021 | 2583 |
| 2022 | 2669 |
| 2023 | 2827 |
| Now | 2991 |
ZiPS liked Freeman fairly quickly, but his career hit projection stayed relatively stable after a few years, hovering somewhere in the 2,400–2,500 range. The last few years have changed that. His runway has become longer and longer, with the risk increasingly coming from a serious injury rather than decline. Now, he will decline, but like flying a hang glider, the higher you start, the longer before you hit the ground.
Here’s the updated career projection for Freeman through Sunday’s games:
| Year | BA | OBP | SLG | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | SB | OPS+ | DR | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | .301 | .385 | .512 | 574 | 110 | 173 | 39 | 2 | 26 | 95 | 73 | 106 | 13 | 142 | 0 | 4.7 |
| 2025 | .290 | .375 | .484 | 531 | 97 | 154 | 35 | 1 | 22 | 83 | 67 | 101 | 10 | 132 | 0 | 3.5 |
| 2026 | .281 | .366 | .461 | 484 | 84 | 136 | 31 | 1 | 18 | 71 | 60 | 95 | 8 | 124 | 0 | 2.6 |
| 2027 | .272 | .358 | .442 | 430 | 72 | 117 | 26 | 1 | 15 | 60 | 53 | 88 | 7 | 117 | -1 | 1.8 |
| 2028 | .261 | .345 | .412 | 376 | 59 | 98 | 22 | 1 | 11 | 49 | 45 | 81 | 5 | 106 | -1 | 0.9 |
| 2029 | .252 | .337 | .399 | 321 | 48 | 81 | 18 | 1 | 9 | 39 | 37 | 73 | 4 | 100 | -2 | 0.5 |
| 2030 | .247 | .332 | .382 | 267 | 39 | 66 | 15 | 0 | 7 | 31 | 31 | 62 | 3 | 94 | -2 | 0.2 |
| 2031 | .242 | .325 | .363 | 215 | 30 | 52 | 11 | 0 | 5 | 24 | 24 | 50 | 2 | 88 | -2 | -0.1 |
This isn’t a particularly bullish outlook, with ZiPS projecting a fairly steady decline (as you should at these ages). But it’s still enough to net him 877 hits, which, with the 16 more projected in 2023, brings Freeman to 2,991. ZiPS actually has a milestone algorithm I wrote some years ago that reduces playing time less as a player nears a significant milestone, so the projection system now has Freeman more likely to get to 3,000 than to fall short, at 53%. With his projected homer total nearing 450 and his WAR likely to top 70, Freeman is increasingly becoming a good bet for Cooperstown.
Not many active players are likely to join Freeman at 3,000 hits, with ZiPS projecting, on average, only 1.6 players other than him reaching the mark. Here are the 23 active players with at least a 0.5% projected chance:
| Player | 2000 | 2500 | 3000 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Freddie Freeman | 100% | 88% | 53% |
| Jose Altuve | 100% | 89% | 38% |
| Ronald Acuña Jr. | 91% | 54% | 22% |
| Juan Soto | 81% | 43% | 11% |
| Bo Bichette | 68% | 38% | 9% |
| Wander Franco | 63% | 34% | 9% |
| Julio Rodriguez | 60% | 31% | 8% |
| Luis Arraez | 49% | 18% | 8% |
| Vladimir Guerrero Jr. | 77% | 37% | 7% |
| Michael Harris II | 62% | 34% | 7% |
| Corbin Carroll | 55% | 24% | 7% |
| Fernando Tatis Jr. | 62% | 27% | 7% |
| Mookie Betts | 92% | 31% | 5% |
| Bobby Witt Jr. | 56% | 23% | 3% |
| Manny Machado | 99% | 51% | 3% |
| Xander Bogaerts | 94% | 25% | 3% |
| Francisco Lindor | 82% | 17% | 3% |
| Gunnar Henderson | 52% | 25% | 2% |
| Mike Trout | 95% | 57% | 2% |
| Nolan Arenado | 98% | 32% | 2% |
| Trea Turner | 72% | 12% | 2% |
| Paul Goldschmidt | 100% | 26% | 1% |
| José Ramírez | 84% | 19% | 1% |
ZiPS still thinks that Altuve is going to run out of calendar, but his outlook has improved somewhat since 2021. The two biggest gainers this year, meanwhile, have been Acuña Jr. and Bichette.
While it’s still too soon to be writing any speeches or preparing any celebrations, Cabrera might want to consider leaving the lights on at the 3,000 Hit Club for Freeman.
Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.
Cool stuff. Can ZiPS output ages as well? Would be very helpful in general when reading projection charts.
I’ve run several machine learning algorithms and I can project that age increases by one each year.*
*I know what you mean, though, it would be helpful and I’m sure I’ve seen the projections with age before.
“I’ve run several machine learning algorithms and I can project that age increases by one each year.”
I have backtested this through a couple of other channels. Math checks out, guys
I’m not so sure there’s a 63% chance Wander gets to 2,000.
Do projection systems incorporate “permanent ban” risk? I guess not!
FanGraphs did its trade value countdown this summer and put Franco at number 2 overall. Less than a month later, baseballtradevalues.com had Franco’s contract as the single most underwater contract in baseball, at -$163 million.
In the case of a permanent ban, I would assume the contract would get voided or forfeited. Teams don’t pay players while they are suspended.
The worst-case scenario from a team perspective would be if MLB finds there is enough to give him a ban of something like 1.5-2 years. That would indicate some serious misconduct. It would mean you’re stuck having a known abuser on the roster and everything that entails or cutting him and paying him not to play. If he’s permanently banned (something for which there is little precedent so far under the policy) then you wouldn’t have to pay him a cent.
Sort of like the Trevor Bauer situation, but, with 7-8 years left instead of 1.
I hadn’t considered that outcome, but that is essentially what happened with Bauer. But instead of having to pay out 1 year of the contract like the Dodgers did, the Rays would be on the hook for 8 or 9 years.
I wonder if there is language in the contract (or most player contracts) that voids them in the case of a criminal conviction, since that seems to be a possibility in Franco’s case.
The case study here isn’t Bauer, it’s the currently in prison for conduct with an underage fan Felipe Vasquez, and he’s on the restricted list and not getting paid – probably forever.
I don’t think its that unprecedented. If Felipe Vasquez was not in literal prison, I don’t think it’s a question he’d be banned for life (that might happen anyway; he’s due for release this month). Franco is much more in that category than he is in the sexual assault/Bauer category. If that’s what he’s doing, he’s never going to play again and it isn’t going to be controversial in any arena.
Yes if he goes to prison then he isn’t getting paid at least until he gets out, and maybe even after that. But I have no idea what the legal system is like in the DR or what sort of documentation of the crimes there are (there was a LOT in the Vazquez case) so I am not speculating on the outcome of the case.
If he gets any jail time, I’m guessing he’ll be banned permanently.
“Known but not convicted” is often the case. So, ‘known.’
Zeile had 2,000 hits? *Todd* Zeile? Shut my mouth.
A very similar number of hits as Jeff Conine and Mark Grudzielanek… being a decent overall player for a reasonably long time is one path to 2000 hits.
Nick Markakis!!!
I appreciate the amount of discourse that was devoted to how the HOF cases of Markakis, Starlin Castro, and Elvis Andrus were going to be handled when they got to 3,000 hits as if it was a high probability occurrence.
and before them it was Johnny Damon and Juan Pierre. Funny how none of those guys ever actually make it there though,
Really the only guy who isn’t a clear cut HOFer by the numbers with 3,000 hits is Lou Brock and he just got in on the first ballot without much fuss. The guys without the numbers tend to fizzle out before they get there because it is just very difficult to be a full time player in your early 20s and late 30s without being pretty darn good in your prime.
True..but, Brock retired in 1979, so his induction in 1985 was WAY before we had current evaluation tools.
At the time he held the all time SB mark (still 2nd) & had the 2nd best in-season SB total, was a 6x All Star, etc.He was also a great player in postseason play & in helping STL win 2 WS titles in 3 appearances.
I’d compare him to Kirby Puckett in that he was just overrated & considered a star,when he just wasn’t. Guys like Markakis, Castro, Pierre were NEVER considered THAT good. Damon may have been a similar case, if he had gotten to 3,000 hits.
Lou Brock was still a superstar, just not as great of one as many people think.
Still, he is pretty overrated. He’s still considered as about the 5th greatest Cardinals player (behind Musial, Gibson, Hornsby, and Pujols) by most Cardinals fans despite ranking 13th in Cardinals bWAR. Not counting future Hall of Famers Pujols and Molina, that ranking also falls behind 3 guys who didn’t or won’t make the Hall of Fame at all (and not because of PEDs or being banned): Ken Boyer, Curt Flood, and the soon-to-retire Adam Wainwright. While Brock didn’t play his entire career with the Cardinals, he still played a very high 87.5% of his games with them, which is a higher percentage than Boyer did.
The Ultimate Replacement Player for corner OFs
127th all-time on the Hit list.
As a result of him working on the Mets broadcasts (mostly pre/post-game shows) they fairly regularly bring up various Zeile stats and record marks that force me to concede the guy was (a) much better than I gave him credit for at the time and (b) a Zelig-like figure for his era of baseball, constantly cropping up all over the place. He’s on more leaderboards than you’d think for stuff like homers and hits at specific stadiums, against specific teams or particular very good pitchers.
It’s a pity he’s of the generation that tends to shout into the microphone because he’s talking to people he can’t see.
Juan Pierre is the one who always gets me, and he cleared 2,000 with plenty of hits to spare. When a guy gets mostly written off as a singles hitter in a power era it’s easy to forget he hit a lot of singles.
Gets a bad rap for some reason. In his prime, 2001-2007 he hit .301, took his walks (.348 OBP), and averaged 97 runs scored and 160 games played. A little above average in CF, too.
I love how Freeman’s hit projection WENT UP after the 60 game COVID year.
I guess that’s what a great year with a .341 BA & more BB than K’s will do for you.
this was absolutely my biggest takeaway. I had to double check I was reading chart right. That is some serious upward trajectory in long term to do that.
I’m surprised Bryce Harper doesn’t have a decent shot. Just saw that he was something like the 18th youngest guy to 1500, but I guess his aging curve and injury risk aren’t great at this point.
It was 18th guy to 1500 hits and 300HR before 31. That’s way different.
He also walks too much..which is great for his value, but, not for picking up hits.
His career high in hits is 172 and he only has 1 more year over 150
Harper and Machado are tricky because they reach milestones at young ages in part because of how young they were when they made it to the Majors.
It’s gotta be injury risk. I was thinking about this wrt to Corey Seager, as he’s basically the 99th percentile outcome of Luis Arraez…but a lock to miss ~50g a year. How do you project a guy like that?
It took him 12 full seasons to reach 1,500 hits, it presumably would take him longer to get the next 1,500 since performance typically declines and time missed to injury tends to increase after 30. 12 more seasons would get be through his age 43 season and well after his Phillies contract has ended. Maybe he can keep going through age 44-45 as a semi-regular, but I suspect the odds of that are below the 0.5% threshold for the chart.
Granted, despite the injuries he’s still 48th all-time in PA through age 30. Limiting the list to those who debuted at 19, are no longer active and debuted 1962 onward (min 5000 PA ages 19-30):
NAME PA19-30 PA 31+
Edgar Renteria 7409 1657
Ken Griffey Jr. 7319 3985
Andruw Jones 7276 1388
Rusty Staub 6961 4268
Adrián Beltré 6877 5253
Justin Upton 6808 841
Johnny Bench 6759 1910
Alan Trammell 6472 2903
Cesar Cedeno 6389 1744
Tim Raines 6159 4200
Ivan Rodriguez 6062 4208
Joe Morgan 5939 5390
Aurelio Rodriguez 5929 1149
Bob Bailey 5799 1244
Juan Gonzalez 5779 1376
Jose Cardenal 5776 1920
Greg Luzinski 5762 1752
Gregg Jefferies 5687 385
Claudell Washington 5676 1691
Gary Sheffield 5548 5399
Tim Foli 5483 1090
Jeff Burroughs 5343 1106
B.J. Upton 5319 539
Bobby Murcer 5305 2413
Bill Buckner 5251 4782
John Mayberry 5224 1222
Jack Clark 5112 3113
The correlation, for this group, between PA ages 19-30 and 31+ is only 0.14.
The correlation for total WAR between the two periods is also low, but not quite as low, at 0.34. The correlation for fWAR rate is a little higher than that, at 0.47.
Trimming the bottom of the list, so that all of the players are +/-1000 of Harper’s 19-30 PA, the average player added 40.8% more PA and 30.1% more fWAR.
If Harper does that, he’s looking at 60.9 fWAR in 9029 PA for his career. Similar to (relatively recent players like):
Alan Trammell
Willie Stargell
Kenny Lofton
Joe Torre
Willie Randolph
Ryne Sandberg
Keith Hernandez
Joey Votto
Yadier Molina
He needs 1,496 more hits in his 30s and hasn’t played a 150+ game season since 2019. Not impossible, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
Freeman is now 34 and getting better. He is showing no signs of slowing down and accepting ZiPS’ projections. He will have his first 200+ hit season at age 34!
He must accept his ZIPS fate like a hang glider accepts gravity!
How do we measure aging curves? Everyone is different and I refuse to accept that Freddie Freeman, still playing everyday and at a very high level, has to be lumped in with Andruw Jones who was washed up at 30. What is gained by guessing how this great player is going to play as he ages? As of this moment he has not shown any sign whatsoever of any decline. Of course there will be a time when it happens but there can’t be any way to predict when Father Time wins but I would put my money on Freeman still being a productive player for much longer than the average, and he has already done more than enough to be a Hall of Fame player.
Freeman’s aging curve is based on players who performed similarly at similar ages as him, roughly. Since he is already far more productive at a later age than Jones ever was, Jones’ late-career production is not likely to be factoring in much for what ZiPS thinks Freeman is going to do. The projections above more or less do show that Freeman is expected to be a Hall of Famer by the time he retires.
And, as a caveat – for every Adrian Beltre who stays good basically until the end, there are just as many or more dudes that flame out at right around Freeman’s current age. Miguel Cabrera sure looked like he was defying aging curves through his age-33 season. Then he got hurt, stunk, and couldn’t ever get healthy enough to find his stride again and has basically been washed for five years.
For those curious, the top players in Freeman’s large cohort of similar players at similar ages
Paul Waner
Keith Hernandez
Dixie Walker
Stan Musial
John Olerud
Rod Carew
Edgar Martinez
Lou Gehrig
Paul Molitor
Mark Grace
Zack Wheat
Joey Votto
Augie Galan
Lefty O’Doul
Julio Franco
Bill Terry
Harry Heilmann
Riggs Stephenson
John Kruk
Minnie Minoso
Frank Thomas
Pete Rose
Don Buford
Paul O’Neill
Brian Giles
Monte Irvin
Roy White
Al Kaline
Paul Goldschmidt
Gary Sheffield
Johnny Mize
Pedro Guerrero
Luis Gonzalez
Wes Parker
Enos Slaughter
Matt Holliday
Eddie Murray
Magglio Ordonez
Adrian Gonzalez
Chipper Jones
Andruw Jones isn’t part of the cohort (Andruw Jones as of 2007 is the 9373rd most similar baseline)
I have no side in this debate. All I ask is for somebody to tell me who is going to age well and I question whether projection systems are better than the eye test. It is a guess, pure and simple, and teams are making some awful guesses. Tell me now when Freddie Freeman is going to stop being a productive player. I don’t know and you don’t know. If it is that obvious that performance drops off a cliff at a certain age then why are GM’s signing aging players to long term contracts that carry the player well into their declining years. Is it really a viable plan of operation to pay Xander Bogaerts $280 million for what is possibly an average of $60-70M/year for actual productive seasons. These teams are playing the same guessing game that is the point of this debate but some seem to be trying to defy the aging curve to the point of absurdity. My guess is that Freddie Freeman will be closer to Adrian Beltre than Miguel Cabrera.
To obtain their services in their prime years, obviously.
But surely you think a reasonable approach is to take the outside view of comparable players and see how they age, right? It’s not a “guess, pure and simple” – it’s an educated guess. Just like every projection is.
If you value the eye test over comps, I would be happy to place wagers with you :).
“All I ask is for somebody to tell me who is going to age well”
Elizabeth Hurley
Jennifer Lopez
Cindy Crawford
Mario Lopez
Halle Berry
AC Slater totally played in the NFL until he was 40.
If anyone thinks a plus-sized 1B who’s been a metronome his entire career can’t decline rapidly in his mid 30s, please look at last year’s NL MVP.
Goldschmidt’s decline looks pretty graceful if you don’t include 2022. Going from MVP to 3.5-4 WAR at age 35 looks like a sudden decline, but it is about 1 WAR under what he was averaging from ages 28-31.
If Freeman returns to the ~4.5 WAR player he was in his late 20s next year, it will feel like a drop from where he is now, but would hardly be a rapid decline in the scope of his career.
Yeah, I think Votto’s the better example. His age-33 season was even better than Freeman’s has been, but it was his last great year.
Joey Votto, age 31-33: .320/.449/.557, 167 OPS+
Joey Votto, age 34-36: .265/.382/.420, 110 OPS+
His OPS+ by year in that time: 174, 160, 167, 126, 95, 107
And while he’s had injuries at different times in his career, those were all full seasons (at least 140G in each of the full seasons, 54G in the shortened 2020 season).
Even the best of the best aren’t guaranteed a gentle, sloping downward curve, much less a plateau.
I just wanted to say the hang glider thing.
It probably doesn’t hurt that Freddie Freeman seems to be able to play without taking days off, and that he has been exceptionally durable. I’m not entirely sure how he can keep doing that as he moves into his 30s but his past record has been very good.
Yesterday, in the Sunday notes column the quiz was about who had played in the most games. Pete Rose’s record of 3562 is probably unreachable because he kept playing even when he was bad (being his own manager probably didn’t help there) and because it’s a lot harder to juice now compared to the past. Freddie Freeman is 6th among active players with 1871. If he averages 155 games a year going forward (which would be quite a feat) he would have to play another eleven years until he was 45 to top Rose. Like Pete Rose, actually. It would take him 8 years to top Rickey Henderson (#4 on the list); it would take him 7 years to top Rusty Staub (at #14).
Looks like only 10 members of the 3,000 games played club.
Dan!
How many games does Zips project him to play over that 8 year projection?
I remember coming into the 2019 season the media was questioning Freeman’s long-term durability. (He missed significant time in both the 2015 and 2017 seasons due to injuries and finished the 2018 season in a power slump that saw him get post-season surgery to remove bone spurs in his elbow) He then proceeds to rattle off a chain of Iron Man type seasons and everyone quickly gets the memo that the narrative changed regarding his longevity.
Wander Franco only 9%? I bet he’s crushed that he isn’t in the teens
(I’m going to get banned, aren’t I)
I’m more interested in the question: assuming Gerrit Cole gets there, will there ever again be a pitcher to get 200 wins in a career?
Great question. It would be fun to see a Divisional Era breakdown of each inning where decisions (W/L) are determined vs. a regression analysis of the length of starts. That would provide a baseline projection of a pitchers’s decision rate.
Maybe ZiPS already accounts for this (along with injury risk and age decline), but running the odds in those terms would be an interesting exercise.
Surprised Soto is projected so high. He just walks way too much to accumulate a significant amount of hits.
I would guess it is largely a reflection of how young he came up (he’s not yet 25 and already has 752 career hits) and ZiPS thinking he will age well enough to play for a long time.
Averaging 150 hits a year through his age 39 season would get him there. At 530 ABs a year (which is what he will have averaged over the last 3 years if he meets his ROS projection) that would take a .283 BA, which is just about his career BA. Of course that assumes very good health and maintaining his career BA that he has been well under the last couple years, but the path is still there.
Also two years, now, of good-not-great batting averages. He’s awesome, without question. But 3k hits requires…well…getting more hits.
In 2004, there were so many guys with 2000+ hits.
I am 39. For the past 4 years, I have compiled an annual “all older than me team.” This year, I couldn’t do it as the only hitters older than me were Nelson Cruz, Miguel Cabrera, and Joey Votto. I think next year there will be no hitters.
There used to be so many more guys in their 40s. I remember in 2007, the Mets had 4 guys in their 40s in the starting lineup. 3b Jeff Conine, P Tom Glavine, LF Moises Alou, C Sandy Alomar Jr. They also had Julio Franco on that team. Around this time, the Giants had an ancient outfield.
I’d be curious to see median age of MLB players over time, as surely, it’s gone down (whether due to old school “play the vets” guys mostly gone and/or to depress costs), with only a handful of celebrity/future HoF types (Greinke, Votto, Cabrera) hanging out.
I just think it’s harder for a 40-something to adapt to todays game. For pitchers, it’s very hard to survive with below average velo. For hitters, it’s all to catch up to the cheese as your reaction time slows. This of course would change if the players had access to a certain nutritional supplement.
This is def a major part, i think Chipper did an interview while at the end of his playing days saying he had to start guessing on 4 seam fastballs because he couldnt catch up like he used to (and his incredible baseball knowledge allowed him to guess correct more often than not).
Go check avg 4 seam fastball velocity in the past 15 years its almost perfect(stupid 2018) in how every year pitchers are throwing harder than the years past.
The other factor is moneyball and teams know they can get similar if not better value out of a 23 year making league min, than a 15 year vet on decent sized contract that might crash and burn leaving them on the hook for a massive money.
All great points but we’re missing one more pretty huge factor that differentiates the 90s-early 00s from now, and it relates pretty closely to the ability of older players to return from injury.
Without casting aspersions on any individual players (other than, you know, all of them, the game as a whole, and the cynics who profiteered from them then but who clutch their pearls now), I think we can say with a fair amount of confidence that PEDs lengthened careers.
This isn’t necessarily true; traditionally, the oldest players in the game have always been crafty lefthanded pitchers. Such as current oldest player Rich Hill.
If I inputted the numbers right (and that’s debatable, as I skipped the COVID year and used Freddie’s 2019 numbers), Bill James’ Favorite Toy has him at a 16% chance. That sounds about right overall, but I could see FF putting up 570 hits over the next three years to improve those odds considerably.
Wondering how much the shift ban has aided players like Freeman and Altuve, if at all.
Definitely helps Altuve. He’s snuck plenty of grounders through on the pull side that were outs in previous seasons. Even his swinging bunts/weak grounders bear more fruit since they are scooped by infielders having to range further and make more difficult throws.
I don’t think he’ll get that close to 3K though. Small levers and declining athleticism are a brutal crunch. His last several seasons(including this one) have established him as a HOFer in my book. Fastest player ever to 2000 Hits/200 Hrs/200 SBs. Second fastest is now Willie Mays… What a badass
I’ll take the under on Wander Franco getting to 2000 hits at this point
I think the ban on the shift will lead to higher hit totals than we’ve seen recently. There’s so much incentive to try and pull in the air and with the shift ban, more of your pulled grounders become singles(and occasionally doubles/triples).
Unless the shift ban is removed or the juiced ball makes a comeback, developing a pull approach seems like the winning strategy for the vast majority of hitters who don’t have oppo power
Do I understand it right that before Freddie Freeman had a single MLB appearance ZiPS projected him for 1850 hits? And that after 24 PA of .167 AVG, 0% BB, 33% K it upped the projection to 2116? That’s some impressive confidence.
I’d guess that he was great in AAA as a 20 year old was the mean reason – he had a 141wRC+ – which is one point below his career wRC+. Reaching the majors at 20 is pretty impressive – even though he struggled.
I see what you’re saying, I’m just pretty amazed by the scale of it. 2116 hits puts you in the 98th percentile of all major leaguers. Great AAA seasons at the age of 20 are rare and a great indicator of future success, but I would never have guessed a projection system to say “as many hits as Joe Mauer / Duke Snider / Paul O’Neill” based off minor league numbers. As he’s done it, perhaps I should not have been surprised, but I am.
I wish I could pull up the exact number, but I recall Jay Jaffe citing that something like 25% of players who play in the bigs as teenagers make the HOF. Making the bigs at a very young age tends to have a very strong correlation with career success.
Though abysmal at 19 in AA after his promotion (.650 OPS). 1850 H is a lot of H, presumably as his median, especially if based largely on one year in a AAA of uncertain competition (most minor league competition is uncertain). Based on that kind of reasoning, Zips almost had to be projecting Alonso based on his unbroken success in the minors, to hit vast numbers of HR in the majors, though currently it isn’t. I’d be interested to see Alonso’s Zips projection during the winter of 2018-19.
I think you’re underestimating the impact of age on these types of projections. Freeman reach AA at 19 and the majors at 20 (first full season was at 21). Alonso was 3-4 years older for each of those milestones. A 23 year old splitting time between AA and AAA putting up ~160 wRC+ combined is a great prospect, but his age would likely have dampened the long term projections.
Another way of thinking about it… ZiPS projected him for 1850 hits after an age-19 season where he did very well at A+ and got the bat knocked out of his hands at AA. After an age-20 season where he dominated AAA and had that unimpressive but tiny sample in the majors, it upped him to 2116. Probably eliminating the chance of never making the majors made a difference, as is knowing how soon he had made the majors.
I’ve said before here that very few players ever project to make the Hall of Fame. Most of the time, you get to the Hall of Fame by crushing any reasonable projections for about a decade. That can be coming up at 19 and raking for a decade (Trout), by establishing a new talent level at 31 and maintaining it for a decade (Beltre), or by extending your peak way beyond what seems reasonable (Freeman). Of those groups, it’s only ever really the young over performers who could ever “coast” into the HOF on just their baseline projections, and then it’s still mostly because the start with such an advantage.
Freddie Freeman is the Chuck Norris of baseball. Of course he will get 3000 hits! It’s kind of disappointing that he wears batting gloves but that’s why there’s only one literal Chuck Norris.
He wears batting gloves to protect the bat from his hands. Without the gloves, he would just be able to grind the bat handle into dust when he tightened his grip.
Freeman is signed through 2027, which leaves him at 2,683 hits if the projections hold up. Would Dodgers extend him at that point? Would Freddy even go for it?? His son Charlie would be playing Little League ball at that point and maybe he would just be fine coaching him …
Betting against a MLB player continuing to play if offered a MLB contract is usually a bad move.
He can do anything as long as he isn’t stopped by his evil twin Freddy Fermin
You can go ahead and cross Wander Franco off any all such lists.
Funny how ready a group of analytical guys so often is to declare guilt in the absence of a verdict, and without evidence they’ve had a chance to examine. Says a lot about you, in fact.
Perhaps no 3,000 hit club member declined in batting average after his 20s as much as Albert Pujols:
Pujols in his 20s: .334 AVG
Pujols in his 30s/40s: .266 AVG