Cardinals Trade for New Best Position Player

You could say that, in recent years, the Cardinals and Marlins have dealt with opposite strengths and weaknesses. Even leaving ownership issues aside, the Cardinals have fielded teams full of pretty good players, with precious few great ones. The Marlins, meanwhile, have had their great players, but they couldn’t surround them with any depth. With the Marlins presently tearing down, it made all the sense in the world for the Cardinals to try to get their ear. And although the Cardinals ultimately couldn’t get Giancarlo Stanton to waive his no-trade clause, Wednesday they’ve settled for a powerful alternative. The newest outfielder in St. Louis is none other than Marcell Ozuna.

This is the kind of trade the Cardinals were lined up to make. This is a form of talent consolidation, and the team might not be finished. The Cubs are just within reach, and the Cardinals aren’t happy missing the playoffs two years in a row. They made it a mission of theirs to acquire some form of impact bat. From the Marlins’ side, this was inevitable, unavoidable. This is how a rebuild proceeds, and the years ahead will be ugly. With luck, the Marlins will have a promising 2021. With luck, the Cardinals will have a promising 2018.

Even though news of the trade has been out for hours, it remains unclear exactly how the Cardinals filled out the package. What we do know is that the Marlins are getting Sandy Alcantara, a 22-year-old righty with an upper-90s fastball. He’s a guy the Marlins wanted in exchange for Stanton, so he should be assumed to be the centerpiece. There is, probably, another prospect, likely a pitcher, and some manner of position player with big-league experience. Alcantara will be the focus in the seasons ahead.

Once the Marlins started taking themselves apart, it was evident that Ozuna would be on the block. There’s little sense in a partial rebuild, and Ozuna has just two more years of team control. Sure, the Marlins also wanted to lose the salary, but this is an easy one to understand from a normal baseball perspective. Ozuna is represented by Scott Boras, and there was next to no chance he was ever going to re-sign. The Marlins, in the short-term, are going to be terrible, meaning Ozuna’s skills would be wasted. Although he’s popular in Miami, he just doesn’t belong on a team in the basement. Any club in the Marlins’ situation would be looking to trade shorter-term talent for longer-term help.

If Alcantara does indeed turn out to be the key guy, his stock has fallen. Before this past season, Eric Longenhagen ranked him third in the Cardinals’ system, and now he ranks fifth. Alcantara’s strikeouts went backwards, and he’s still showing inconsistent control of his big-time fastball. Because Alcantara has yet to make more of his peak velocity, there are real concerns he ends up in the bullpen. All of his major-league appearances with the Cardinals were made as a reliever. The Marlins, presumably, will let him keep starting. He instantly becomes a jewel in their own system, as the organization hopes he learns where his fastball is going.

You Aren't a FanGraphs Member
It looks like you aren't yet a FanGraphs Member (or aren't logged in). We aren't mad, just disappointed.
We get it. You want to read this article. But before we let you get back to it, we'd like to point out a few of the good reasons why you should become a Member.
1. Ad Free viewing! We won't bug you with this ad, or any other.
2. Unlimited articles! Non-Members only get to read 10 free articles a month. Members never get cut off.
3. Dark mode and Classic mode!
4. Custom player page dashboards! Choose the player cards you want, in the order you want them.
5. One-click data exports! Export our projections and leaderboards for your personal projects.
6. Remove the photos on the home page! (Honestly, this doesn't sound so great to us, but some people wanted it, and we like to give our Members what they want.)
7. Even more Steamer projections! We have handedness, percentile, and context neutral projections available for Members only.
8. Get FanGraphs Walk-Off, a customized year end review! Find out exactly how you used FanGraphs this year, and how that compares to other Members. Don't be a victim of FOMO.
9. A weekly mailbag column, exclusively for Members.
10. Help support FanGraphs and our entire staff! Our Members provide us with critical resources to improve the site and deliver new features!
We hope you'll consider a Membership today, for yourself or as a gift! And we realize this has been an awfully long sales pitch, so we've also removed all the other ads in this article. We didn't want to overdo it.

Alcantara isn’t an easy talent for the Cardinals to lose. All teams love their good prospects. Yet Alcantara wasn’t likely to be a major factor in 2018, and Ozuna’s coming off a season in which he was worth 4.8 WAR. The Cardinals might tell you they’re enamored of Ozuna’s intimidation factor. I don’t know to what extent that makes a difference; the Cardinals could already hit. But Ozuna will provide something that was missing, a dynamism for a team with otherwise lower-ceiling regulars.

According to Baseball Savant, this past season, Ozuna was something of an over-achiever. If you compare his actual wOBA to the wOBA you’d expect based on his batted balls, Ozuna might’ve gotten a handful of breaks. He might’ve just had the best season he’ll have. But then, turn to the Steamer projections. Looking at Steamer600 for the upcoming season, the previous Cardinals position player with the best projection was Tommy Pham, at 2.9 WAR. Ozuna is up there at 3.5, between Xander Bogaerts and Gary Sanchez. And, as a matter of fact, if you look at the pitcher projections, Carlos Martinez ranks first among Cardinals, at 3.4. Ozuna looks like the Cardinals’ best position player. You could argue he looks like their best player, period. The Cardinals needed to add high-end talent, and Ozuna fits the bill.

Ozuna isn’t exactly one-dimensional. He’s not an asset on the bases, but he is fast. He’s not an above-average fly-catcher, but he has one of baseball’s best arms. He doesn’t draw walks like Joey Votto, but he has progressively pushed opposing pitchers out of the zone.

Ozuna’s aggressive without being a hacker. But it’s the power that makes him look like a star, power that conquered Marlins Park. Ozuna just knocked a career-high 37 homers, and his exit velocity on balls in the air just put him around Paul Goldschmidt and Cody Bellinger. And while Ozuna has been strong from the start, there’s evidence of real improvement — in 2016, his expected wOBA on batted balls was .389, and in 2017 it was .423. That ranked Ozuna in the 90th percentile among changes in the metric, so the Cardinals don’t need to see that recent batting line as a complete and utter fluke. Ozuna still swings and misses a quarter of the time, but it looks like the contact quality itself might have taken a step forward.

If Ozuna were to repeat what he did, the Cardinals would be ecstatic. That would help them close the gap on the Cubs even further, and it would further distance the Cardinals from the rest of the wild-card competition. Probably, they don’t see Ozuna having the exact same season again, but even with a statistical step backward, Ozuna slots in at the top of the roster. He’s a good young player now, and he’ll stick around an extra season. The Cardinals have needed some players like this. The Marlins will miss Ozuna, just as they’ll miss Stanton and Dee Gordon, yet this is how it was always going to go. Ozuna might be thankful to them for giving him a shot at the playoffs.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

66 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Enlightening RoundMember since 2017
8 years ago

It is what is is, but does anyone else kinda feel bad for Yelich now? Yuck.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago

Some reporting now has the Marlins offering to trade him if he asks for it. But I guess that doesn’t necessarily make up for the contract he’s stuck with anyhow.

Paul22
8 years ago

They probably want to package him with a bad contract like Prado or Chen

jmaicardiMember since 2020
8 years ago

Not really. Signing that early deal was a calculated risk under an owner where that risk was readily apparent. The pitfalls are tough but that’s how it goes sometimes. His only choice now is to keep working and continue to get better. That’s what’ll get teams to make Miami that perfect offer and meanwhile build up his resume for his first FA contract.

ItsPoPtime
8 years ago

I’m surprised Yankees didn’t get Ozuna and yelich just for the hell of it

jdbolickMember since 2016
8 years ago

I hope the rest of the package is significant. I already thought a year ago that Alcantara would end up in the bullpen, and that looks like a near certainty now.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

It is significant.

Reported by the Miami Herald to include three other players also:

– 21-year old OF Magneuris Sierra, who Longenhagen actually put 1 spot above Alcantara in his recent ranking of the Cardinals system as a 50 FV guy – https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/top-23-prospects-st-louis-cardinals/ . Longenhagen is higher on him then many, I think, but he’s a speed and defense CF who should be a very valuable major league starter if he can hit even enough to have a league-average batting line.

– Zac Gallen, who is a starting pitcher that Longenhagen has as a 40 FV. 2016 Drafted out of college in 2016 and made it to AAA this year; and

– Daniel Castano. I’ve never heard of him as a Cardinals fan, and I don’t see him mentioned in Longenhagen’s write-up as even an honorable mention. Looks like a throw-in. 19th round college pick from the 2016 draft. Seemed to have good numbers this year but with the big caveat that he was 22 in low-A ball.

Maybe Alcantara does end up in the bullpen, but there are worse outcomes than ending up with a high-quality, controllable late-inning bullpen arm.

There were rumors that either Piscotty or Grichuk would be part of this package, and I think that the actual return shows that the Marlins are realistic and pursuing a sound rebuild strategy. They don’t need pieces with their service time clocks running, and Grichuk is only controllable through 2020. Piscotty has longer-term control due to an extension, but he’ll be 27 in January.

Paul22
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Combined Katoh is 5.7 WAR over 6 years. Probably get 8 WAR from Ozuna in the next 2 years. Lost a lot of surplus value there for some lottery tickets that will take 4 years to recover based on the projections

ssf
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul22

Yeah there’s a pretty good chance this just ends up being 2 years of a stud for a 4th outfielder and a relief pitcher

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  ssf

4th OFs, and RPs, come in all shapes and sizes.

If they just grabbed 6 years each of Rajai Davis+CF defense (Or Bourjos+steals) and Trevor Rosenthal, along with a solid #5 starter (barring any Denbo voodoo that sees Gallen adding a tick to his fastball and becoming a 4), that’s a good deal for both teams.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul22

It’s possible these guys won’t amount to much, but my understanding is that KATOH is biased low on players like Sierra who get a lot of their expected value from defense.

From a Chris Mitchell THT article in 2014: “Unsurprisingly, KATOH tends to underrate players who man premium defensive positions–like catcher, center field, and shortstop–whose offensive abilities may not be the most valuable part of their game.” https://www.fangraphs.com/tht/katoh-forecasting-a-hitters-major-league-performance-with-minor-league-stats/

The article is an interesting read in retrospect because in part it discusses how KATOH was at the time negative compared to prospect rankers on a low-minors Yankees prospect by the name of Aaron Judge.

I could also see KATOH being generally negative compared to rankers/scouts on pitchers like Alcantara, who is stuff more than results at this point and needs to improve his command, but KATOH might be correct to have that skepticism.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Mitchell integrated some defensive numbers into it after that article was published. No one seems to have any idea how these stats are calculated (they come from Clay Davenport) but they do seem to be predictive.

I would guess most of his value in the KATOH projections is coming from defense and stolen bases.

jdbolickMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

It is significant.

The projected value of those prospect grades does not even come close to the estimated surplus value of Ozuna over the next two seasons, so actually it was a very disappointing return, as Dave explained. But obviously you’re invested in pretending that the Marlins’ ownership is making these moves for baseball reasons instead of to reduce the $400 million in debt they assumed as part of the purchase price.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

No, jd, if you read Dave Cameron’s argument it’s really that he doesn’t believe that Sierra and Alcantara deserve the 50 FV grades that Longenhagen gave them last month ( https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/scouting-miamis-return-for-marcell-ozuna/ ).

The math absolutely checks out if you believe that they deserve those grades, based on the information here – https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/valuing-the-2017-top-100-prospects/ . If one believes that Sierra and Alcantara deserve 50 FV grades, then their total value is $36 million. It’s not hard to estimate another ~$10 million or so from a 40 FV pitcher and a throw-in. They’re off the lower-end of the chart, which stops at 45 FV pitchers being worth $13 million.

That looks to be, clicking through to the Point of Pittsburgh work linked in that FG article, based on valuing WAR at $8 million / WAR. And, they are discounting back to present value at 8% per year, so an NPV concept is factored into their equation.

Ozuna, based on his Steamer projection of 3.5 WAR for 2017, and arb salaries ($10.9 million per MLBTR for 2018, which implies about $25 to $30 million over his last two arb years combined). That’s about $25 to $30 million of surplus value at $8 million per WAR, or $40 to $45 million of surplus value at $10 million per WAR.

And, if we’re using $10 million per WAR for Ozuna, then we also need to make increases throughout the entire prospect value chart that appears to be based on $8 million per WAR.

jdbolickMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

It’s not hard to estimate another ~$10 million or so from a 40 FV pitcher and a throw-in.

Actually it is hard to estimate that, as 40 FV pitchers rarely turn into anything.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

“Actually it is hard to estimate that, as 40 FV pitchers rarely turn into anything”

Maybe that’s right, maybe it’s not.

Per the scouting chart, it says that they’re guys who can turn into “swing/spot starting pitchers” or “middle RP”, so they’re regarded as having some value. https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/scouting-explained-the-20-80-scouting-scale/

KATOH projects him for 1.6 WAR in 6 years, so if that’s what 40 FV means (not certain how it compares to a typical 40 FV, but that sounds like it fits the description) which at $8 million per WAR is something like $12.6 million in production less maybe $4 to $5 million in salaries since guys like this don’t get paid much in arbitration. Then we’d need to discount it back to current value, so something more like ~$7 million is probably better for Gallen and combined.

It doesn’t change the overall mathematical story, though, because, as I said, Sierra and Alcantara have meaningfully higher value if we use $10 million / WAR rather than the $8 million / WAR that apparently generates the prospect value chart.

The overall point still stands: the trade value on this deal is fine if you believe that Sierra and Alcantara are actually 50 FV prospects. The arguments against it are people (e.g., Dave Cameron’s subsequent Instagraphs post) or KATOH not believing that they’re really 50 FV prospects.

asreitzMember since 2016
8 years ago

I mean, the Cubs aren’t that much better than St. Louis, anyways. Their rotation is taking a huge hit losing Arrieta. Lester regressed, Hendricks came back to earth. Lackey is gone. Their bullpen stinks and they are losing their closer. Yes, they have some nice pieces but I wouldn’t say they are heavy favorites, at all.

carterMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  asreitz

I’d take the under on Lester’s projection. He looks like he is toast. Arrieta is still an above average pitcher, but if the season began today I would think STL>>>CHC

Original Greaser Bob
8 years ago
Reply to  carter

LOL

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  asreitz

The thing is that I think that the Cubs are going to add about 3-4 wins from where their projection sits today between signing at least one free agent starting pitcher and at least one more late-inning bullpen arm. Cot’s has them as still being $44 million under the luxury tax even after signing Morrow.

Even as a Cardinals fan, I think that the Cubs are going to go into 2019 projecting to be several wins ahead of the Cardinals.

That said, starting pitching injuries or ineffectiveness are once again going to the area where I think that the Cubs will have a lot of risk. That’s part and parcel of not having much in the way of well-regarded upper minors pitching prospects: those players are normally depth if something goes wrong with the starting rotation. Their farm system is also pretty thin to go after any bigger name pitchers in-season, and they’re in a tough spot on seeing a path to replenishing it if they keep selling off to get back relatively short-term upgrades. Quintana was at least longer-term, with team control through the 2020 season.

mbs2001
8 years ago
Reply to  asreitz

Don’t discount the hangover that comes with breaking the longest championship drought in american sports history. The cubs are still the team to be beat in the central.

KCbbq
8 years ago
Reply to  asreitz

Arrieta is no longer a #1. His control has been off and he had issues the third time through the order. Don’t get me wrong, he’s still a good pitcher but he’s not an ace and that is what Boras is selling him as. Lackey was toast this year. Heck of a competitor but no better than a low end #4. Hendricks had issues the first half but pitched more like his 2016 numbers in the second half.

Quintana is a quality #2. Yeah, Lester is no longer a stud but is still a quality SP. Not sure what to expect out of Chatwood away from Coors other than his overall numbers should be at least league average but with some decent upside. Still expect them to add a quality arm in either Cobb or Darvish.

tdouglas
8 years ago

Ozuna is probably a couple of wins better than Piscotty, so the trade is a plus for STL, but I don’t think it makes much sense. The Cubs are still quite a bit better, so STL will be fighting for a WC spot next season and in 2019. Is 2018 really the year for them to use a ton of assets to upgrade their WC position? I thought Yelich made way more sense for STL, because he will be around for many years.

The package of Alcantara, Flaherty, and Gricuk or whatever the package is isn’t going to cripple STL’s future, but it’ll hurt. Unless STL truly buys in to running down the Cubs (which would require a top starter, like Arrieta or Darvish, plus another big bat, like Santana), I think the Ozuna trade doesn’t make much sense. They’ve got the money and farm system to add a couple more big pieces, so this trade could look fantastic by March, but Ozuna alone isn’t enough.

rp90
8 years ago
Reply to  tdouglas

It’s pretty clear from everything they say that the Cardinals’ front office does not regard this as enough either. But, that’s not a criticism of the deal. It’s also doubtful that it includes Flaherty, but we’ll see.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  tdouglas

(1) Making the wild card game still has value.

(2) There are probabilities and error bars to projections. Projecting as, say, 4 games back of the Cubs before the season rather than 6 still has value, especially given that it also makes a wild card spot more likely.

(3) There could be other additions, whether free agents or trades, both this off-season and also after 2018.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

#2 is the key. The range of possible outcomes is still pretty enormous. St. Louis could easily win the division, and if they weren’t in the same division as the Reds I would say they could (less easily) finish last too.

carterMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I’m looking at the Cubs and Cardinals lineups right now. I just don’t see how if you subtract Arrieta from the Cubs they look better at all. I’m certain the Cubs will go out and get someone else and will improve their lineup, but as is on paper I like the Cardinals

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Well, we could have said the same thing about the Giants in the NL West coming into this year, with the Padres guaranteeing that they wouldn’t finish last, but somehow the Giants pulled it off.

bostonskrong
8 years ago

Why didn’t they just sign J.D. Martinez if they’re trying to stockpile right-handed power OFs and were willing to pay for Stanton?

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  bostonskrong

Because J.D. Martinez looks like he’ll get a huge contract and gives back some of his hitting value with awful defense in the corner OF.

He’s a significant defense liability at 30, who probably ought to be a DH now, and we should only expect his defense to get worse over the course of a 5-6 year contract.

Martinez really ought to go to an AL team, where he can DH at least part of the time now (if not all the time) and be a full-time DH within no more than two or three years.

Ozuna and Stanton, by contrast, are both good defensive corner OF’s.

tramps like us
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Martinez will cost someone a 1st round pick, too. Stanton won’t.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  tramps like us

Still costs a pick (or picks, for teams over the luxury tax), but no longer a first rounder in the new QO system. For the Cardinals, it would be the team’s second highest pick and $500k of international pool money.

tramps like us
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

ouch, I somehow missed the change. Thanks for pointing it out!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  tramps like us

Martinez was traded in-season. No QO. If you want to keep your minor league talent, sign Martinez instead of trading for guys.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Excellent correction, sadtrombone. I would downvote my prior comment for forgetting that if I could do so. Mea culpa.

tramps like us
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

true dat….and yet it still seems applicable either way. Thanks to each of you.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
8 years ago

With every deal the Marlins make I keep asking myself if they will draw 1,000,000 in 2018.

Paul22
8 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

When tickets go on sale Jeter can fire half the staff handling the ticket sales

francis_soyer
8 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

Maybe they’ll just broadcast the YES network on the big screen and forfeit the games.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago

Complete Cardinals prospect package according to reports on Twitter (@ESPN_Beisbol and others):

RHP Sandy Alcantara
RHP Zac Gallen
LHP Daniel Castano
OF Magneuris Sierra

Sierra might be good enough not to qualify as a mere throw-in but otherwise this looks like a borderline steal to me.

Paul22
8 years ago

Katoh predicts Marlins generated about 1 WAR per year for the next 6 years, and loat 8 WAR over the next 2 years. Its another gift but thats what Jeter is known for

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago

I disagree.

Run the prospect value numbers – https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/valuing-the-2017-top-100-prospects/ – along with Longenhagen’s rankings of this year’s Cardinals – https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/top-23-prospects-st-louis-cardinals/

Alcantara, 50 FV pitcher: $14 million value
Sierra, 50 FV position player: $22 million value
Gallen, 40 FV pitcher: not sure of value per FG prospect value
Castano, pitcher without ranking listed

Castano does look like a true throw-in, but Gallen has some value. It’s pretty easy to see about $10 million in value between Gallen and Castano. (A single 45 FV pitcher has a value of $13 million).

I think that Longenhagen is higher than some on Sierra, but he might also be lower than some on Alcantara. Raising Alcantara to 55 FV and dropping Sierra to 45 FV would keep their combined value essentially the same.

So that’s around $45 million of total prospect value.

Ozuna is 27 with a 3.5 WAR Steamer projection for 2018. Call that 7 WAR over two years. His combined arb salaries over his final two years of control are expected to be $25 to $30 million. MLBTR has him at $10.9 million for 2018.

Do the math at $8 to $10 million per WAR, and Ozuna’s surplus value is $30 to $45 million.

The Marlins’ return looks to be at the high-end of this range, so it looks to me like they got a pretty good return for Ozuna.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

And Gallen’s the type of 40 FV that’s a *likely* 1-win SP for 6 years, (barring injury, Maddux-ing or Denbo having brought over the Yankees’ velocity voodoo) rather than a “could be a superstar if he doesn’t burn out in Short-Season” type.

Mike NMN
8 years ago

Sort of fascinating how the reaction to this trade, which seems to be a good one for the Cards, is so muted compared to the reaction to the Stanton trade, where many were calling for Congressional Investigations.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

Now that we know the return, I am willing to make four hot takes:
1) The Marlins did not make this deal to shed salary. They did it to improve a future Marlins team. So they did it for the right reasons.
2) This is not a good return. Either the Marlins suck at this or the outfield market is reaaaaaaalllllly soft. Of course, if it is that soft, then they probably should have held Ozuna. Okay, that would suggest the Marlins suck at this.
3) What the hell is up with Miami and getting guys with blazing fast fireballs? That can’t be all they care about, but it sure looks that way sometimes.
4) I like the trade for the Cardinals, but not if it keeps them from getting Machado. Maybe it will, but just eyeballing it I don’t think it necessarily would prevent them from going for Machado.

ashlandateam
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

To your second point, this comes a year after trading Luis Castillo and his 99-100 mph fastball as a starter for perfectly average and boring Dan Straily. Perhaps seeing him do well in Cincinnati has caused them to do a 180 in philosophy.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  ashlandateam

Funny, I totally forgot about that deal. Looks awful in retrospect, doesn’t it? Of course, it also looked awful at the time, since Straily’s performance didn’t look sustainable.

I started paying attention to the Marlins and their obsession with the radar gun a little after they drafted Tyler Kolek. I started looking in at their pitchers and lo and behold, they were all lighting up the radar gun. I looked at what prospects they had (not many at the time), and they were also all close to triple digits. I know every team prefers more velocity than less, but they seem to put more of an emphasis on it than most.

Paul22
8 years ago
madfencerMember since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul22

No, not MLB commissioner. Then he would just be using his wizard skills on behalf of the owners. He needs to be head of the MLBPA. Tony Clark is getting waxed.

JoserMember since 2021
8 years ago
Reply to  madfencer

Can you imagine if (a) Boras was the head of the MLBPA and (b) the union included all professional baseball players, not just the guys in the major leagues? I wonder how long it would take before we had an international draft.

RadermecherMember since 2018
8 years ago

Watched M.Sierra this season,gifted with great speed,a fine defender,could easily be a Marlin leadoff hitter,and starting OF,by 2019,or earlier.Alcantra,is a very live arm,often topping 100mph.
His fastball seems to lack movement,and his control is suspect.
Still,the potential is there.The Marlins at least got some return,this time around.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Radermecher

Eric Longenhagen comped Sierra to Kevin Pillar, and that seems like a good comparison. You obviously hope he hits more like Boegarts than Billy Hamilton, but there’s some potential there.

TheBestPhamInBaseball
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think this is way too optimistic about Sierra. Pillar had an ISO about 100 points higher than Sierra in the minors. To this point he’s shown almost no power and a terrible batting eye. The odds of him ever hitting like Pillar are extremely low. Alcantara and Gallen could end up being arms that the Cards miss but it’s hard to see Sierra being a big loss.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

This is fair. It was more in the sense of “this guy will be a major asset in CF and likely below average hitter” kind of guy.

There’s still a place for slap hitters here and there (Dee Gordon!) but Sierra doesn’t really have the contact skills for that. There are some pretty obvious questions there.

johansantana17Member since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  Radermecher

Work on your punctuation

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

Also, if I’m a GM and I see that this is what the Marlins took for Ozuna, I am calling them up and asking about Yelich.

johansantana17Member since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Jeter is so, so bad.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I don’t see that. Per above, the surplus value checks out if we believe Longenhagen’s prospect rankings.

Paul22 is here in the comments quoting KATOH numbers, when my understanding is that KATOH is specifically acknowledged as a bad tool for evaluating speed and defense players like Sierra. It primarily estimates hitting, and then adjusts for position. And I think it even lumps together all outfielders, so Sierra has the same KATOH projection as a corner outfielder with the same offensive stats.

There were reports of 6-8 teams at least making inquiries on Ozuna, so I don’t see any evidence that the Marlins took the first offer available.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

FYI, the article you linked to up above is before Chris tweaked KATOH to include minor league defensive numbers. No one has any idea how those defensive metrics are calculated, but defense guys do way better now. So Sierra’s prognostication is likely not biased (accuracy unknown, though), especially with the weight given to stolen bases.

This comes down to whether you think Eric or KATOH is closer on this. Eric thinks that Alcantra and Sierra are likely 2-WAR players every year. KATOH thinks they are likely 2.5-WAR players over their first six years. I’m going to side pretty heavily with KATOH on this. Guys with bad hit tools and no power, and pitchers with serious control problems at 22, are not guys I would bank on for much success.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Ok, I stand corrected if he’s added that to KATOH. I had a tough time finding a current description of how KATOH works. I did see a 2015 update where Chris added positional data to KATOH.

But yes, I agree that there’s clearly a big difference between the rankers and KATOH here. Just looking at Eric’s Cardinals’ prospect ranks from a few weeks ago, for example, some of the 40 FV outfielders like Oscar Mercado (2.6 WAR in first 6 years from KATOH) and Randy Arozarena (1.1 WAR from KATOH) compare to Sierra as a 50 FV but only 1.4 WAR per KATOH.

The Cardinals have 6 50 FV minor leaguers per Eric, and KATOH likes three of them (Kelly, O’Neill, and Flaherty) far more than the two who were in this trade.

Rahul Setty
8 years ago

Why did the Marlins move so quickly on Ozuna? Not like he had loads of surplus value or something…

forum199Member since 2017
8 years ago

The consolidation of talent purview might applies aptly to the Dodgers and Christian Yelich. The Dodgers are loaded, but their OF is full of high-variance players like Yasiel Puig (impending FA), Joc Pederson, Andrew Toles returning from an ACL tear, and rookie Alex Verdugo. He immediately becomes their best OF and doesn’t make a lot of money, which is vital as they try to stay under the 197M mark.

Alex Verdugo, Brock Stewart, Mitch White, and DJ Peters for Yelich? Who says no?

Aduhey
8 years ago

Did Ozuna’s numbers change significantly when Stanton was not in the line up?

paccus
8 years ago

This article has aged poorly now that the Cardinals have acquired Fringe Five regular, Max Schrock. #RockOutWithYourSchrockOut

TwinPeaks
8 years ago

Oh – I thought this article was about future MVP Max Schrock. I guess this article was written before that trade.

Lee Stone
8 years ago

How did the Marlins fail to get Weaver, Reyes or Flaherty? Any one of them was a better haul than the four minor pieces the Fish got.