Cueto or Hamels: The Deadline Decision
With the trade deadline 22 days away, we’re starting to reach the point where deals could come together pretty quickly. The standings are beginning to sort out the contenders from the pretenders, and teams have mostly completed their internal evaluations of what they need for the stretch run. Over the next few weeks, the focus will turn to getting deals done, and for every team looking for a big deadline upgrade, two names will be at the front and center of those discussions: Johnny Cueto and Cole Hamels.
They’re not just the two best pitchers on the market; they’re probably the two best overall players as well. Both are high quality starters with long track records of success, and each could upgrade an acquiring team by something like a couple of wins over the remainder of the season, plus the upgrade of adding a frontline starter to their postseason rotation. Both players are going to be in high demand, and will likely return a significant haul for their organizations.
But which one should a team prefer? Let’s compare the pros and cons of each, and look at whether contenders should be willing to pay more for either pitcher.
Performance wise, both are pretty similar. Here are their numbers over the last three calendar years, so July 8th of 2012 through July 8th of 2015.
| Name | IP | BB% | K% | GB% | HR/FB | LOB% | BABIP | ERA- | FIP- | xFIP- | WAR | RA9-WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Johnny Cueto | 520.1 | 6% | 24% | 47% | 11% | 80% | 0.249 | 68 | 87 | 87 | 9.8 | 14.7 |
| Cole Hamels | 635.1 | 6% | 24% | 45% | 10% | 78% | 0.293 | 80 | 83 | 87 | 13.4 | 14.1 |
Because Cueto missed most of the 2013 season, Hamels has thrown 100 more innings over this time frame, and he’s certainly avoided the dings and scratches that have caused Cueto to miss starts here and there. If a team is primarily looking for durability above all else, Hamels is the pretty easy choice. But Cueto did throw 244 innings last year, and is among the league leaders in innings pitched again this season, so we’re not talking about Erik Bedard here. There’s more health risk with Cueto than Hamels, but Cueto’s issues aren’t nearly serious enough to scare contenders away.
And what he might lack in quantity, he has made up for with quality. On the core metrics of walks, strikeouts, and groundballs/home runs, the two are quite similar; Cueto’s home run rate is a little bit higher, but HRs can be pretty fickle, and that difference goes away if you look at their career numbers. By things like FIP or xFIP, there’s no real difference between the two pitchers.
But while measures that ignore BABIP and sequencing are the better choice when dealing with smaller samples, both pitchers have thrown more than enough innings to establish themselves as pitchers who can sustain performances better than these ERA estimators would suggest. Over the past 10 years, Cueto is #4 in FDP-Wins (+8.2), while Hamels checks in at #24 (+4.7), as both pitchers have run well below average BABIPs over their careers. For both pitchers, FIP/xFIP understate their value, as these two also add value by allowing a lower-than-average rate of hits on balls in play.
But while both seem to possess some skills in this area, Cueto is clearly better at it. Since the start of the 2011 season, when he broke out as as a frontline starting pitcher, he’s allowed just a .256 BABIP over 791 innings, the lowest mark of any starting pitcher in baseball during that stretch. Hamels has allowed a .283 BABIP over 966 innings during the same time period, so he’s racked up those non-FIP wins more by being a little better than average over a larger number of innings. While it’s easier to run better rate stats in smaller innings totals — which means we have to regress Cueto’s BABIP back towards the mean more than Hamels — this does seem to be an area where Cueto has an advantage. Both induce weak contact, but Cueto does so more often, and to a larger extent.
So on a per-innings basis, you’d prefer Cueto, especially given the way he’s trending. By getting his strikeout rate up to 25% over the last year and a half, he’s really cemented himself as a legitimate #1 starter. Meanwhile, Hamels strong career track record of outperforming his FIP is mostly based on the early part of his career, and he’s pitched much closer to the ERA estimators over the last three and a half years. While Cueto has run a 66/85 ERA-/FIP- split since the start of the 2012 season, Hamels is at 81/83 over that same time period.
Of course, that’s nothing to sneeze at, and both marks still put Hamels clearly among the better pitchers in baseball. But Cueto’s rate stats are just a little bit better, and he has a stronger argument for being in the top tier of Major League pitchers right now; since the start of the 2012 season, in fact, only Clayton Kershaw has posted a lower ERA-. On a runs allowed basis, Cueto has been better than Chris Sale, Felix Hernandez, Max Scherzer, or David Price. Hamels hasn’t quite cracked that tier, though he’s very solidly established in the next one.
So Cueto is probably the slightly better pitcher at this point, but Hamels comes with reduced health risk. If you only want to maximize your upside and try to add as many 2015 wins as possible, you probably want Cueto, but if you’re looking to make sure you get the upgrade you’re paying for, perhaps taking the higher floor with Hamels isn’t a bad idea. Picking which one you’d rather have on the mound for the rest of the year is mostly a matter of risk tolerance.
Of course, that’s only focusing on 2015, and trade value is not just expected performance over the remainder of the season. Contract status matters, and the largest difference between Hamels and Cueto isn’t on the field, but on the books. Cueto is in the last season of his contract, so he will be eligible for free agency this winter, where he’s likely to land a deal somewhere in the general range of Jon Lester’s 6/$155M contract. Hamels, meanwhile, is under team control for at least the next three seasons at a total of $74 million, with the possibility that his fourth year option will either vest or be picked up as part of the trade, which would push his remaining guarantee to $92 million over the next four years.
If we give Cueto the Lester deal, then the future expected cost difference between the two is something like $65 million over the last two years of the deal. Cueto is a slightly better pitcher and two years younger than Hamels, but adding something like 2/$65M on to the end makes it more possible that Hamels provides a better return on the investment going forward. As good as Cueto is, I don’t think we can project him to be worth more than $10 or $15 million per year in those last couple of years, creating something like $30 or $40 million in negative value in those extra seasons, and Cueto would have to be a full win per year better than Hamels in the first four years of the deal to make up for that likely dead money at the end of the contract.
And, of course, Cueto’s deal could end up north of Lester’s 6/$155M. Maybe he’s gets 7/$175M instead, pushing up towards Max Scherzer’s price based on his level of recent dominance. The acquiring team also isn’t guaranteed to re-sign him even if they’re the high bidder, so there’s some value in the certainty of having Hamels versus the potential of bidding on Cueto. Even with Cueto being the better pitcher at the moment, the extra years of team control may provide enough 2016-2019 value to make Hamels the better acquisition for a team not just focused on 2015.
But it isn’t clear cut one way or the other, especially because we didn’t touch on the $6 million difference in remaining salary for the rest of this year. The Phillies could very well pick up the difference for any team deciding between the two, but they’re unlikely to want to keep $6 million on their 2015 books for nothing, and will likely ask for a better return in any deal where they’re picking up some of the remaining salary. And while 3/$74M or 4/$92M is a below market deal for a pitcher of Hamels quality, some teams might prefer to pay a little more in years five, six, or seven to get a better pitcher in the short-term.
So, in the end, I don’t know that it’s clear that either one has significantly more trade value than the other. To a team solely focused on 2015, or a team uninterested in adding a big salary to their books going forward, they should pay a little more for Cueto. To a team that is trying to balance winning both this season and next year — and has the financial capability of adding a big salary to the books next year — Hamels is probabably worth a slight premium over Cueto.
When the dust settles, I’d bet they command very similar returns, with both pitchers bringing back multiple quality prospects to their organizations. What might those packages look like? We’ll tackle that tomorrow.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
How Jeff of you.
Is anybody else about done reading Dave Cameron’s articles? I think I am. It’s a mixture of stating the obvious, making assumptions and speaking in generalities about future contracts and WAR estimates, concluding with no real conclusion.
The final two paragraphs could’ve been the entire article
I’m sure everyone will miss you.
When you get a hater troll as a internet blog writer, you’ve got it made!
Dave’s articles are the only ones I read *no matter the subject matter*. Dude has mad skillz…
This is his best work in awhile. No elitist comments, no talking down to fans like he does in most articles and chats.
I think youd like him if you would have went to the meet up. His real life personality is NOTHING like his elitist internet persona. Very nice guy.
It doesn’t really matter to me if you read any more of his articles, but it would certainly improve things if you were done commenting on them.
Good then you won’t need comment on his articles ever because you won’t ever read them. Better for you and better for us.
Trolling aside, theres been a lot of comments lately about the quality of his work declining. Speaking in generalities like you said, not giving evidence to back up his opinions, and like the other comment, the constant talking down to fans is pretty amazing when fans are the reason he’s so popular. Hes still right up there with Klaw as the best baseball writer in our stat-head community, but unlike the rest of the posters i actually see what you and Joe are saying. I met him at the fangraphs event as well and he was nothing like his chats make him seem.
No, no one else is.
Get on with it, Bushy Top…
Wouldn’t Hamels’s trade value be almost entirely dependent on how much money the Phillies eat? It seems like a cash strapped contender with a 2-3 year window would empty their entire farm system for Hamels at 5 million a year for a couple years.
His trade value, in dollars, is the same in both cases though. The phils are just buying extra prospects in your latter example.
While I’m certain that Hamels can bring in a nice trade for the Phillies, I don’t know if he is really worth emptying your farm system. He’s likely worth at most an extra 2 wins this year and around 4 WAR a season for the next 2 years. Don’t misunderstand me, that is very nice. Its just not empty your farm system nice.
I bet the Tigers would empty there farm system for Hamel at 5 mil a year.
I’ll give you that one. Right now Mike Ilitch’s strategy appears to be, Win now at all costs, die shortly afterwards, let someone else pick up the tab.
Think of the talent drain!
Except nobody wants what’s in the Tigers’ system.
I’m sure I will miss everyone
I bet your parties are fun!
Weren’t you on your way out?
Shouldn’t the level of risk associated with the uncertainty of re-signing Cueto ensure that the trade package will be less than what it would take to acquire Hamels?
Regardless of what team Cueto goes to, it would be shocking to see him not enter free agency. Hence, Cueto pursuers need to value him strictly based on the 2 wins he may create post-all-star break.
I see Cueto as a great fit for the Bluejays, as a summer rental in a very tight AL East race. Those 2 wins could be enough to generate a playoff appearance. Although their cupboard is barer than last year, there may be enough pieces to make the deal.
Hamels would be awesome for the Royals, getting them the ace that has been lacking since Greinke left. However, I don’t know that they can build the right package to acquire him. Not sure where he will wind up.
Cueto’s value is the rest of the season plus any small chance that Cueto is willing to give a discount to stay (so, none)
Signing Cueto to Lester’s contract is a completely independent decision and can be done with or without trading for Cueto.
I was thinking the same thing. Projecting Cueto’s future contract has no bearing on the analysis. IMHO, the correct analysis is Cueto’s excess value on his 79 games v Hamels’ excess value over his remaining 3.5+ seasons.
And they are really two different commodities. A team like KC or PT might put far more value on Cueto’s $5M cost, while a team like the LAD or NYY might prefer Hamels’ l/t stability.
I think that the Reds have more of a floor in terms of what to get back than the Phillies do. If the Reds do nothing, they’ll net a draft pick for Cueto. Not that a draft pick is all that, but it’s at least something that they can leverage.
and if the Phils do nothing… they’ll have Cole Hamels!
Just like they had Halliday and lee
Royals would be good landing spot for Hamels but they don’t have much prospect value beyond their top 3 or 4 guys – Manaea, Zimmer, Finnegan and Mondesi. But given where they are, maybe they package 2 or 3 of those together and do it. Couldn’t blame them much if they did.
I don’t think Zimmer moves. He’s had so many shoulder problems, it would be an extreme sell low.
But I don’t see the Royals in play for Hamels at all. They won’t commit that kind of long term, big money. If it was Billy Beane running the show, then yeah, they’d maybe trade for Hamels now and then unload him for prospects in the offseason. But Dayton Moore is not Billy Beane.
I could see the Royals possibly being in play for Cueto, though, given that there are no dollars committed to him after 2015. But I still think we’re more likely to get a comment from Dayton Moore to the effect of “we are happy with the organizational depth we have created in our pitching ranks and did not want to disturb that.”
the phillies paying half just makes it like having another james shields. but yeah their package wouldnt really have a lot going for it unless they trade off the big league roster like finnegan, culbert and mondesi. with them eating half the phillies would probably want more.
What about Scott Kazmir?
The A’s better hope that his tricep situation clears quickly.
I’ll take both. And zobrist for david price.
how many Addison russells do you have!?
Assuming Hamels to the Dodgers for some package not including Seager or Urias (or Pederson of course). Verdugo/Schebler/Cotton? Something along those lines. Or Barnes instead of Schebler??
Cueto to Jays.
Leake to Cubs
Kazmir (if he gets healthy) to Stros
anyone else?
So, that leaves Lasorda and Magic. LOL.
Dodgers would have to give up more than that. Probably DeLeon or Holmes instead of cotton. But a Holmes, verdugo, schebler, Sweeney haul would be very solid.
Leake isn’t going to the Cubs. The Reds organization already stated two things: that they were not interested in trading to inside division and they would not trade both Leake and Cueto due to no depth in starting rotation given the possibility that Iglesias may not be healthy to be a starter for the second half of the season.
I think Hamels should go to a team like the Cubs or the Astros. A team that is good this year and looking for a championship, but is more realistically going to compete harder next year or the year after.
I seem to remember you always stating that you should never consider the possibility of re-signing as part of a trade value, but I suppose I should go find a link with that in it before accusing you as such.
He’s actually taken the opposite position. See http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/dbacks-extend-martin-prado/
“we can’t separate out decisions that were clearly made with the intention of agreeing to a longer term deal”
but would that qualify in this instance? Is Cueto saying that he wants to resign with whoever trades for him without testing FA?
It’s a different situation. My point was merely that Dave has not taken the position that Gregory attributes to him. The quote probably included somewhat more context than needed to make that point.
I go with Hamels all the way. His contract is the deciding factor for me. At 4/92million he is a bargain in today’s market..heck that’s Porcello money( gotta love that Sox fans)!. Any team would gladly take Hamels on at that salary.
…find out next time, on Dragon Ball Z!
Hamels has won a WS MVP and thus has the playoff cachet some GM may prefer. Cueto meanwhile is an absolute horse who I could easily see throwing 3 games out of 7.
I could see a team like the Dodgers try to mimic the Nats’ (quest for a) superrotation and overcome their playoff jinx by adding Hamels while a low-payroll, ace-less team like the Royals grabs Cueto.
Then of course the Dodgers ink FA Cueto in December.
Tango and Cash, Cash and Tango…
Ok, so it seems like your argument hinges on:
1. Cueto will provide more value to a contender in 2015 than Hamels will.
To me, your argument relies overly on cherry picked narrative and less on the appropriate data. For instance, you write a paragraph about FDP-Wins over 10 years and then make conclusions about 2015. First, what do FDP-Wins tell us over 10 years (10!) when Jeremy Guthrie is the leader on that list and there are no fewer than 10 relievers in the top 25 (and none of those are Craig Kimbrel or Aroldis Champman)? By cherry-picking Cueto and Hamels place on that list, you’re implying that this list is meaningful–but that is very questionable. As an aside to the reader–if you haven’t looked at this list, do so. Second, you use this 10-year data in support of the conclusion that in 2015 only, Cueto will be better. Huh? Why present this at all?
Now, I’d argue that you are right to limit your scope to 3 years. If you look at their RA9-Wins for that period to adjust for Cueto’s missing 100 innings in 2013 (we’ll come back to this in a sec) Cueto actually DOES come out ahead by 0.8. Contextually, Cueto ranks #7 and Hamels ranks #8 in baseball. It’s true that over the last 3 years Cueto, per inning pitched, has been better than Hamels. The degree to which that is significant though is less clear–that’s less than 0.3/year. I’m honestly not sure how much that matters.
Ok, now let’s predict the future–the rest of 2015. One player has multiple DL trips in the last 3 years. The other doesn’t. We know that previous DL time is a predictor of future DL time. If we were to assign injury risk to both players, Hamels would carry a non-zero % score. He does pitch for a living after all. Unless you believe that pitcher injuries are totally random, it doesn’t seem terribly controversial to say Cueto’s chance of being injured is greater. If we run a simple expected value integral including Cueto’s greater chance for injury (after all, what is production but # of starts times average performance in a start), the small lead Cueto had is erased.
It’s very difficult for me to see anything but Cueto=Hamels. You may be right, Cueto might be ever-so-slightly ahead on a per-inning basis, but I’d argue that when you take into consideration error bars on performance along with injury risk, these are two pitchers almost indistinguishable for contending team in 2015. Given that a contender would use them for 12-15 starts, we’re talking about less than half of a win here between the two. Think about that.
2. “Trade value is not just expected performance over the remainder of the season”.
So:
A. To the best of my knowledge, we have no evidence that Cueto would want to avoid free agency. Like…none at all.
B. We don’t know which teams would be willing to offer him long-term deals in the offseason and whether those same teams also posses the prospects to acquire him now.
I would argue that the acquiring team has a 25%-33% chance of resigning him and they would still have to outbid every other team. That’s simply not a good enough probability to do a deal like that. With Hamels, you’re locked in to the $ mentioned, which you admit is “below market”.
So basically, you’d rather pay a greater price in prospects and then pay a market rate (6/155) for Cueto then pay a lesser price in prospects and then a below market rate (3/74 or 4/92) for Hamels? Look, it may well turn out that Cueto greatly eclipses Hamels performance going forward and, in that case, I’ll look like a fool…but given the information today, I ask, respectfully:
Are you out of your mind?
It sounds like you’re saying that you should pay more for a 3 month rental than you should for a roughly equivalent pitcher signed on a below-market deal. Asked another way: how much exactly is that alleged 0.5 WAR difference worth to you today in present value dollars? It’s true that certain wins are worth more than others, but in July, that info isn’t always known. Just ask the A’s from 2014 and see how much they’d like to have the Samardzija deal back.
I agree with most of what you said, but I think his point was that you could pay more in prospects for a cheaper Hamels or less in prospects for a more risky/expensive Cueto.
“When the dust settles, I’d bet they command very similar returns”
Please:
Stop referring to it as the Samardzija trade. Hammel was in that too, and he’s a damn fine pitcher so it’s not as comparable (2 [retty good pitchers as opposed to one ace, 1 not a rental). He did happen to have many of his worse starts in the last 18 months during his tenure with the A’s, but his performance this year and the first half of 2014 suggests to me that the A’s might have valued him alone near as much as Cueto. Everybody knows the Baseball gods hate Billy Beane.
If you want to bring up Hammel, you have to bring up McKinney as well: a ballpark top 100 prospect and the As most recently tradeable first round pick. (In fact, the type of player that might go roughly straight-up for a good-not-great SP rental at the trade deadline, and if that’s not enough call Straily a sweetener on this deal.)
So it really was six years of Russell for 1.5 years of Samardzija — unless a half-year of a a 31-yo SP with 11 WAR prior to his age 31 season nets more than a top 100 prospect and change, and that the difference moves the needle on trading a top-5 prospect for 1.5 years of Samardzija.
You’re right. For shortness, I refer to it as the Samardjiza deal. But there were other components to it, including Hammel and BA’s #2 ranked organizational prospect for Oakland which the above commentator mentioned.
Here’s the thing: what you’re saying doesn’t change the argument that was made in favor of the deal from the A’s perspective at the time–it only reinforces it. The logic is that the marginal value of the wins they were acquiring by improving their already good but “unproven” starting rotation in 1.5 years of Samardijza and 0.5 years of Hammel were worth a top 5 midseason keith law prospect– Addison Russell–and a recent 1st round pick as well. My argument is that the *prospect* of those marginal wins were not worth that. Further, that neither started a playoff game for Oakland is not the least bit surprising, given the historical results for these sorts of deals. Again I ask: how bad would Oakland like to have the Samardjiza/Hammel deal back? Any takers?
FWIW, I am not all that high on Russell reaching star status as a SS in the majors, so I don’t believe Beane should be taking the beating he’s received. He went for it; the main problem is that anyone can win a one game series. That said, I certainly think Hamels is worth someone’s top prospect. Dude’s got 3 more years of control and don’t discount his success in the postseason (SSS apologies but knowing how GMs think…)
Cueto’s chance to re-sign with whatever team he is dealt to depends entirely on WHO acquires him. It goes without saying that if he landed with the Yankees, Sox, or Dodgers that there would be a roughly 50-50 or 60-40 chance of him remaining there.
But, if you’re the Astros, Royals, or Jays then it makes much more sense to go after Cole.
By the way, why haven’t there been any rumors regarding the Twins perhaps being in play for one of these guys or Kazmir or Samardzija? Have they made their intentions clear about not wanting to trade away prospects or commit any money?
I think Dave assumes that they pay enough to get a negotiating window to resign Cueto or at least to explore how much it will cost them. He also probably believes that the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, Chicago or Angels might trade for Cueto teams with enough money to make the necessary push. I do agree signing him adds risk so I think Cueto gets slightly less but given that the FA market is loading with pitching and even getting a slight edge on negotiation could lead to a FA signing I don’t think its a stretch to think somebody like the Angels could value Cueto more. I personally think Hamels is the safer bet for most of the contenders. Reds will probably favor teams who think they have a shot at signing Cueto since they are willing to pay more. All except the Angels have the flexibility in farm system. I can see Houston being a player they have a loaded system and while Cueto has risk giving a way a couple exciting prospects who are long way off for a strong chance this season is a good idea. Plus Cueto does not weigh you down long term. If Houston cares too they could have quite a bit of payroll flexibility going forward. Luhnow frowns long term deals.
Hamels will get a better haul than Cueto. I think this is a no brainer.
Re-signing a player on the verge of free agency just can’t have any extra value. He’s only going to sign if you’ll give him more than anyone else would in FA (since you’re not assuming any risk). And since you can sign someone else (David Price, e.g.), or just put the money in the stock market*, there isn’t any advantage to re-signing a FA. So you shouldn’t pay anything extra for the opportunity to re-sign one. That Cueto is a little better than Hamels, and makes a lot less for the rest of the year, is what is going in his favor. That Hamels is signed to, essentially, a short-term, below market contract is what’s going in his favor. That you might be able to re-sign Cueto doesn’t add any value.
*The purpose of a baseball team is, after all, to make money for the people who own it. In evaluating the wisdom of baseball moves we should take into account non-baseball things they could do with their money.
It absolutely DOES make a difference that you might be able to re-sign someone in FA. You have a slight edge over another team if by chance you get him now as a short-term rental and he likes the way your team is managed or he sees it as a good fit for his style of pitching. You have to take into consideration the players own feelings towards a team. If they trade for someone like Cueto and he really enjoys pitching for that team, coffee may be more willing to re-sign with them if they match another top teams offer.
*he not coffee….damn auto correct!
Hammels would be a great fit in Boston. That’s been said before. I wonder what Cherry would give up, seeing his and the managers job could depend on it. I say go for it Ben, but I have a job.
I think Cueto fits Boston better than Hamels. If Boston wanted to really make a run, they should shoot for Cueto and Chapman. I don’t know if they think they are close enough, but 5 games out is on the cusp.
Take a look at Hamels interleague stats. Not pretty. Pretty large sample too
190 innings spread out over 10 years isn’t a large sample.
Teams trading at this years deadline are paying a premium to acquire players for the stretch run of this season.
Based on that, the answer is Cueto and it’s not close.
Hamels will be in pinstripes. They can’t go into the stretch run with CC as their star lefty.
Not with Budget Hal in charge of the purse strings
“Budget Hal” found a way to sign Tanaka. He’ll find a way to get Hamels. They feigned having a budget last year, until they decided to break their own “rule”. Besides, they have all of that Jeter money freed up.
Beltran, CC, and Tex’s contracts expire the end of next season and A-Rod the year after that so the Yankees are in great shape salary wise. The only one of that group the Yankees would want to bring back is Tex.
The rest of the Yankees core of McCann, Gardy, Ellsbury, Miller, Betances, Tanaka, Warren, Big Mike, and essentially the entire bullpen are secured for years to come.
I don’t think Hal had any confidence this team could compete this season. But, now that they are a good stater away from being World Series contenders I think his fiscal restraint will melt away. The bigger question should be is Cashman willing to trade away two or three top prospects of the farm system he has worked so hard to rebuild back into respectability?
I see the Yankees more likely going after Kazmir or Samardjiza then Cole or Cueto. They may even consider getting an offensive upgrade for the middle infield a bigger priority than starting pitching.
I bet they are trying to deal Judge and another one or two guys for Hamels.
Plan B is Kazmir and Price in the offseason. This may make more sense, because my guess is Price is the guy they really want, and would lose less trading for Kaz than Hamels.
I just can’t see them going into the playoffs with CC as their only lefty starter.
I feel like any articles involving Hamels has to come with the caveat that Ruben Amaro is going to shoot for the moon and end with nothing. In reality, if Hamels is borderline unnatainable, then Cueto’s trade value increases (less supply).
Hamels sounds good for Pittsburgh considering they won’t be good trading partners for the Reds and where they’re at on the win curve. That contract is a bit much for them but that’s what prospects are for. Taillon, Meadows, Garcia, and Clay Holmes. Admittedly Taillon’s value is down with the sports hernia surgery but he’s still a top 50 prospect when he comes back.
I agree he’s a good fit for the Pirates.
Cueto definitely has the pitching skill to outperform his FIP indicators. Isn’t he one of the best at holding runners and shutting down running games? Also did you guys see when he did that dancing wiggle the other day (different from his normal funky delivery) when the batter was so confused he stepped out mid pitch and it was called a strike? That was amazing. He has some crazy pitchability, for lack of a better term
The Mets are willing to overpay for Jamie Moyer.
The solution is obvious: Hamels for Cueto!
How about a 3 team deal:
Reds get Hamels
Contender gets Cueto
Phillies get prospects from Contender and maybe something from Reds as well.
Phillies restock.
Reds replace Cueto with a similar pitcher for the next couple of years at below market value – giving up something, but not a lot for Hamels.
Contender gets the slightly better ace for the remainder of the season.
You sound like a Reds fan suffering from some serious denial flu. Cueto is gone and the team is likely mulling an entire rebuild.
I agree with the commenters who are surprised to see so much discussion about value past this year, given that Cueto will be a free agent. I don’t see a brief negotiating window as worth very much with a player of his caliber, who seems almost certain to test the market.
In talking about post-2015 expectations, however, I am surprised that Dave didn’t mention that Cueto is 2 years younger than Hamels.