David Ortiz Has Refused to Decline
Anyone who’s ever tried to analyze baseball has had the occasions of coming away fairly humbled by the experience. I’ve been made to look stupid at least dozens of times, but one that really sticks out is a blog entry from May 2007, when I figured a mid-30s Raul Ibanez was about out of bat speed and power. From the date of that entry through the end of his career, Ibanez batted more than 4,000 times, drilling 166 home runs while posting a 112 wRC+ and making something like $50 million. Ibanez remained with the Mariners, left them, came back more than a half-decade later, and that year was the best hitter on the team. He was never toast until he was. It’s hard to look into the toaster.
Next season is going to be David Ortiz’s last. The official announcement is apparently coming Wednesday, but the word is out now, and it’s unlikely Ortiz is suddenly going to reverse course next November. So 2016 will bring another farewell tour for another franchise icon, and at every stop, people are going to share their memories. We all have our own, and if we’re being honest, we all have several. Among mine is that, time and time again, it’s been speculated that Ortiz was about at the end of the road. It’s a perfectly reasonable position to take with a player getting up there in years, but to Ortiz’s credit, there have been slumps, but he still hasn’t actually declined. He turns 40 tomorrow.
You might remember the talk earlier this past season. The Red Sox were slumping, and they were slumping in part because David Ortiz was slumping. When you have a slumping 39-year-old, you can’t not talk about the player’s age, and many suggested that, at the very least, Ortiz should be platooned. He was having a devil of a time against lefties, managing a paltry .274 OPS through June. It doesn’t seem like that should’ve been debatable, but second-half Ortiz was among the game’s most productive hitters, and against lefties from July on, his OPS soared to 1.069. He didn’t just hold his own; Ortiz was a menace, against everyone, producing like someone 10 years his junior.
While 2015 was the latest example, it was far from the first time Ortiz critics emerged from the woodwork. They were present for many slumps, and they were there when injuries ate into Ortiz’s 2008 and 2009. In 2010, he slugged .529; he’s beat that in four of five seasons since. In each of the last three years, Ortiz has reached 600 plate appearances, at 37, 38, and 39. We can’t know what 40 will bring, but at least there aren’t indications Ortiz will fall off a cliff.
Let’s examine Ortiz’s refusal to decline. First, just make note of his age. The following plot shows the number of players within given age groups who’ve reached 1,000 plate appearances, since 1900. It’s an arbitrary cutoff, but the right message gets across. They’re grouped by stretches of three years, and Ortiz has beat 1,000 in all of them easily.
Nothing you couldn’t have guessed: players don’t commonly stick around and play regularly. The 37-to-39 group totals less than 10% the 28-to-30 group, and while Ortiz is a DH, and while players today last a little longer than they used to, it’s impressive enough to see him still regularly in the lineup. By Ortiz’s age, many players are transitioning to coaching. They aren’t hitting 102 home runs.
As for performance, there’s this table. Shown are five successive spans of three-year windows, going back to 2001, when Ortiz was a Twin. You see Ortiz’s ages, and his wRC+ rank out of all the players who batted at least 1,000 times, the total of which is shown in the next column. The last column gives Ortiz’s percentile rank.

| Seasons | Ages | wRC+ Rank | No. of Players | Percentile |
| 2001 to 2003 | 25 to 27 | 46 | 231 | 80% |
| 2004 to 2006 | 28 to 30 | 6 | 243 | 98% |
| 2007 to 2009 | 31 to 33 | 24 | 234 | 90% |
| 2010 to 2012 | 34 to 36 | 5 | 230 | 98% |
| 2013 to 2015 | 37 to 39 | 14 | 233 | 94% |
In the first window, as Ortiz was improving, his offense ranked in the top fifth. Since then, he hasn’t dropped out of the top tenth, ranking 14th overall the last few years after having ranked fifth the three years previous. He’s coming off one of the best offensive seasons ever posted by a 39-year-old, and it looked just like the season he had as a 38-year-old. Taking offensive environment into account, the seasons wouldn’t have looked out of place for a younger David Ortiz, especially given that Ortiz has become one of the most heavily shifted hitters in the game. So that’s been rough for his singles, but Ortiz hasn’t lost his power. For his career, about 19% of his fly balls have been homers. Last year, he came in at 20%. Impressively, his strikeout rate is also below his career average. So Ortiz hasn’t been selling out for anything. He’s just hit like himself, accepting the occasional shifted groundout.
Through 39, David Ortiz hasn’t changed very much. He’s protected much of his game from the usual consequences of age, and for that reason, we should expect that 40 will bring its own share of glorious moments. Of course, you can seldom really tell when a player is on the verge of collapse. Edgar Martinez held up through 40 before coming apart at 41. It’s a thin line between successful and unproductive, and age draws everyone closer, but Ortiz, at least, has worn his advancing age well. He’s gone above and beyond what would’ve been a reasonable expectation six or eight or ten years ago.
That’s a huge reason why Ortiz will have a legitimate Hall-of-Fame case. I don’t mean to get into that here; there are arguments for, and arguments against. Naturally, you need to take his playoff performances into account, because they make up so much of Ortiz’s story. That’s a conversation we’ll have, and it’ll be complicated, and it’ll contain a lot of references to Edgar. Maybe Ortiz belongs in the Hall. Maybe he doesn’t. But the argument in his favor is a hell of a lot stronger than we thought it would’ve been a decade back. David Ortiz hasn’t slowed down. Not many players of whom you could say the same thing.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

Only in a Jeff Sullivan article would a line like
not just make perfect sense in context, but also be the perfect summation of the entire concept of the futility of making predictions. Who knew kitchen appliances contained within them the essence of Sartre? Sullivan knew.
The well-known Corscian linguist and philogist Antonio Guessipe Fellini mused, during his imprisonment for fraudulent cheque passing, he mused that humility is the last lesson we learn, and one that is best learned as we die. But the appearance of learning, such that we present the Janus of both idiocy and competence to the world, is such that we should endeavour to know what we both know and wish to unknow. The electronic recording of our idiotic musings is a constant lesson teacher of humility – when humility is both a virtue and a punishment. Bald base baller Ibanez, like bald French historian Foucault, was both rapid to present and then abandon his works. But without the viewing glass of humility we are unable to perceive, or unknow, we are unable to perceive this utter end of our virtue and descend, necessarily, to madness and impotence.
You might even say he has … Declined to Decline.
Nothing but a dirty steroid using cheat.
I hope he never sees the Hall of Fame.
Keeping Piazza, Bagwell, and others out because of “alleged” use but voting Ortiz in, would be a joke.
That read “keeping pizza bagel and others out” at first glance…you can’t keep pizza bagel out!
But only he himself is “alleged” of use. The “evidence” presented against him is none.
If Ortiz gets in then it’ll be principally for narrative reasons, which players like Giambi don’t really have. Ortiz is never going to get in on his stats, so I guess we’re going to find out how much the hall values a good story.
Edgar should be in the HOF before Ortiz.
Obvious Troll is obvious
Old school troll doesn’t know how to read facts.
No decline you say? Perhaps we should try to uncover why….oh wait, we already know why, he’s the biggest cheater of this generation.
We’re not naive anymore.
Even if you’re sure he has cheated, what makes him the “biggest cheater”?
Yea, i want to hear this too. Hes clearly a rung below literally anyone who got caught after the testing and punishment regime was put in place.
And probably a few rungs below, say, a guy who hit 600 home runs, got caught and admitted years of steroid abuse, then got caught again years later and suspended for a season.
He is a cheater, and he’s probably slightly bigger than Bartolo Colon.
Some have called steroids the fountain of youth. We all know testing does not catch all users so that proves nothing. When a guy who has had the performance he has had in his age 35-39 years seasons and shows no decline from his peak (27-34), in fact he has improved as he has aged (152 OPS+ vs 144 OPS+), then you have to wonder. You really do.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Actually, no, you really don’t.
You can choose to wonder, if you find pointless speculation about an endlessly debated subject interesting.
But you don’t have to do anything.
Why wonder when you can just assume guilt?
Hank Aaron: 161 OPS+ from ages 27-34, 168 OPS+ from ages 35-39.
Ted Williams: 192 OPS+ from ages 27-34, 198 OPS+ from ages 35-39.
Edgar Martinez: 154 OPS+ from 27-34, 154 OPS+ from 35-39.
Well shit guys, time to remove them from the Hall. They were obviously cheating!
Ozzie Smith: 89 wRC+ from ages 23-40, 99 wRC+ from ages 41-41.
Fuckin Ozzie, I knew it
The fact that a very few players did better in their late 30s than in their early 30s is not a very strong argument. At FG of all places, I would have expected posters not to cherry pick a few rare examples, when a wealth of data show that the overwhelming majority of players get worse in their late 30s.
Doping is by far the more likely explanation. Especially when we’re talking about a player who has already tested positive. Arod is probably the most hated currently active player, yet when tested positive at the same time, at least he manned up and admitted it. Ortiz denied. Think about that. Forgetting Biogenesis, Arod at that time actually took a higher road than Ortiz.
ARod admitted it because there was a Sports Illustrated report that nailed him. Who knows how MLB and MLBPA would have reacted if not for that report, but they did support Ortiz’ denial.
I was with you until you brought A-Rod’s “stepping up” and “manning up” into it. He was backed into a corner with no way out and after denying use repeatedly, he finally admitting using as a strategy for gaining re-admittance to baseball. That was the ONLY reason.
If steroids have this amazing effect, why do we not see lots of players that don’t decline until their late thirties or later?
Please, hop right on.
I’ll answer this.
[1] In the steroid era, we did have a bunch of players still productive and not declining in their mid-late 30s. I think testing has curtailed this some. Also, there is the effect of the amount of money players make now. You don;t have to play into your late 30s to accrue “lifetime money”. One contract of 6-7 years for 10-20 million pretty much does it.
[2] For the players from group 1 that did eventually decline, it was primarily joint injuries that did them in. Not an uncommon problem with sustained steroid use. Muscles recover faster than joints, tendons, and ligaments. So, the muscles recover faster, allowing a player to work more or peak more, but the joints eventually can’t take it. See the world of powerlifting, etc for even more vivid examples.
[3] Young players cost less. That’s a big change we’ve seen. Teams are more eager to get young players to the majors and feed off their cheap, but good production. The players that prove themselves get team-friendly extensions, and those that are going to test FA … well, their team is going to get as much out of them as possible, for a cheap price.
Young players are more prepared for MLB than they have ever been, namely due to elite showcase baseball where the top plays the top continually from ages 10 on up. Teenage players in elite programs routinely face 90-99mph pitching. It’s a world of difference.
You can take Aaron out of that evidentiary offering, which occurred exactly at the moment the Braves moved from a poor hitters park in Milwaukee to the “Launching Pad” in Atlanta. Williams and Edgar are valid, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule. Like many players, we’re left to use our powers of deduction, logic and common sense to make educated guesses at likely steroid users. Ortiz was named in the infamous leaked report of 2009. His lack of decline is another reason for suspicion. Lowest OPS of his career the same season at the age of 33…..normally declining production….followed by the best production of his career through his age 38 season. If you believe he’s more likely clean than not, why not believe Barry Bonds, too? Actually, Bonds never failed a drug test. The chemists are the best money can buy and they know how to mask the results. No, I don’t know for a fact that Ortiz juiced. But my powers of deduction tell me it’s much more likely than not. Bret Boone….Pudge Rodriguez……Brady Anderson…..Eric Gagne…Jacob Ellsbury…..there’s a long list of guys never caught but the stats just don’t line up right on the back of their baseball cards. We can have the HOF debate on Bonds/Clemens/McGwire etc., but let’s not kid ourselves….they juiced.
So everyone who had one great year is a steroid cheat? Why did they all stop taking the drugs after that year? Maybe you need to work on those powers of deduction a little.
Why is it not possible that Ortiz also is an exception to the rule? After all, he’s just one data point and there is an overwhelming likelihood that through randomness one or two very good players will continue to be very good very late in their careers…
No, not everybody who had one great year juiced. But when you look at a player’s power numbers and see his home runs by year as 4-5-4-8-11-9-32-12-7-5-8-4……and the year of 32 came in the steroid era-then I’m figuring he used. Brady Anderson is the poster child for the statistics I’m citing. A 50 home run season is NOT within any possible projections for him before he accomplished that. And decline with age is so entrenched in statistical history that any severe aberration is suspicious.
Aaron was definitely helped by the change in parks, but OPS+, which Bobby cited, is park-adjusted. wRC+ tells a similar story. Yes, his raw numbers look better thanks to the move to Atlanta, but even taking park factors into account, he still maintained or slightly improved his offensive production in his mid to late 30s.
Or you could just appreciate being able to watch a great player defy age. Why is everyone so cynical? We’re talking about a damn game here. Who gives a shit what anyone did or did not use.
The steroid era boosted baseball’s popularity beyond where it ever would have reached without it. Nobody was watching the home run chase and thinking they were cheating, they were enjoying the thrill and entertainment. Nobody watched Bonds’ historic years and thought “this isn’t fun, he’s cheating.”
Enjoy the game you’re given. If you want to keep him and other alleged steroid users out of the Hall, then please let’s also remove the guys who were doing amphetamines, or the pitchers that doctored baseballs, or the pre-integration guys who played against limited competition. At least take it all the way if that’s where you want to go, and we’ll remove most of the Hall of Famers and start over.
That’s not how I remember it.
I remeber fans throwing needles on the field, signs like “The babe did it with hot dogs and beer, not the cream and the clear”. All of the sudden Hank Aaron went form underappreciated great to one of the all-time great players and fan favorite.
I also remember mid-summer of 98 when the whole Andro thing came out and the awareness and mood did change for a good number of people.
By the time the single season home run record saw it passed by 66, 68, 70, and then 73 home runs … there’s really no way anyone could deny something very weird was going on. By the time Bonds was breaking Aaron’s alltime record, everyone was aware of BALCO, etc. Not everyone was celebrating.
He cut his K rate by 10% following the 2010 season. Are we thinking he took a 7 year hiatus from steroids?
Obviously he was in it for the long con.
If we’re going to play the “If they had a big late career then they must have been on ‘roids” smear game:
Nolan Ryan from age 37-45: 100-92, 3.31 ERA, 2.80 FIP, 42 WAR (4.67 per yr)
and Ryan played with a virtual who’s who of either known steroid users or suspected/whispered (right or wrong) steroid users: Canseco, Palmeiro, Pudge, Juan Gone, Caminiti, Downing . . . .
Oh and Ryan also led the league in K 4 times during that period from age 40-43 with 1 year over 300, posted a 112 ERA+ that is right in line with his career number and led the league in ERA once at age 40.
The steroid numbers game has always been stupid. If you buy the reports about the 2003 testing sample and you want to say that is enough to condemn him, fine. On the other hand, he’s not actually a better player, performance wise, than many guys who’ve gone one and done in HOF voting. I mean, are we arguing about whether or not Carlos Delgado deserves the hall of fame? No, he was passed over immediately.
Or we could look at the other pretty obvious factor:
In a career that will have spanned two decades when all is said and done, he’s on track to have played well less than two full seasons’ worth of games in the field. That’s going to do wonders for longevity and there really isn’t a reasonable comp for that kind of career, even Edgar Martinez played roughly twice as many games in the field.
{PS – thanks for deleting my comment after that one from the troll. I was afraid it would look like I was trashing Jeff’s article.}
YOU WERE.
{PS – Thanks for deleting my comments, then the troll. I fear that it will be as if it exterminates article Jeff.}
{PS – Well-translated!}
Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas, Paul Molitor, Harold Baines, and Eddie Murphy were all full-time DH’s in the latter halves of their careers and they all continued to hit at all-star levels in their late 30’s and into their 40’s as health allowed. This is by no means a rigorous search but just me thinking of all-time greats at DH off the top of my head.
It’s just impossible for aging elite hitters relieved of fielding responsibilities to maintain their batting skills well beyond the average player…..huh?
Snarkiness aside even this Red Sox fan looks at Ortiz’ career WAR and late start to his MLB prominence and agrees Edgar needs to get into the hall first.
*Murray (goddamn autocorrect)
Eddie Murphy would DEFINITELY be in the HoF if it weren’t for all those damned beat writers who favored David Spade!
Or Garrett Morris.
Perhaps you should proofread before posting, not after.
I agree that Edgar should be in the Hall, it would be a travesty if he doesn’t make it.
However, I would also say keeping Ortiz out only because Edgar didn’t get in is bad too. Each player should be judged independently. I happen to think they should both be in.
Papis postseason stats, achievements, and moments deserve serious merit when we include his soon to be 540 homeruns, 600 doubles, and 2300+ hits. Oh and the RBI. People that mention steroids are actually the NY lawyers who broke their sworn duty and lied, people who actually believe papi and his never changing physique are due to roids, don’t know anything about the wonders of never playing the field, people who David has burned in the playoffs, or NY fans who think jeter deserved all those gold gloves
without even looking at the stats, I’ll bet my house on every one of those guys losing a LOT of value in their age 35-39 seasons. Yeah they were still good, but were they as good (or even BETTER!) as their 25-31 years?
Living in the heart of redsox nation, I witness first hand the fans vehemently opposed to any form of accusations of a star redsox player cheating. They did it with Manny and said he cheated before and after he was in Boston.
Doesn’t matter if I think he is a cheater, fans are to a very high percentile going to defend their own.
What I don’t like is his constant career long complaining of any called strike, as though if he didn’t swing at the pitch, it was a ball. Or the death stare at a pitcher hitting the inside corner with a pitch for a strike, as though the pitcher was trying to hit him. For these, I have very little respect for ortiz. I would love to have seen how he would have fared before the rules changes and batting against pitchers like Early Wynn, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Clem Labine, Stan Williams and the like.
Yeah…nice, your name betrays your actual dislike for papi. Of what you accuse him, proves you watch few sox games
Did you bother to read my first sentence? I live here in the Boston suburbs. Been watching them on nesn for years.
I think the answer is obvious. David Ortiz isn’t actually 40. He’s 32.
He lied on his birth certificate in the wrong direction because he wanted a challenge.
Somewhere Chuck Norris approves of this notion.
True story: Adrian Beltre DID lie in the wrong direction because he was too young to sign.
Beltre never ceases to amaze me.
His dad must have tried rubbing his head one too many times.
Beltre should have his own Hall. And it should be glorious.
I think he’ll get in the Hall long before Edgar Martinez does and I do not like that
From GrassRockFish on the Lookout Landing page:
“The best argument for Ortiz getting in first is that he has 7 Edgar Martinez awards and Edgar doesn’t have any.”
NEITHER DOES JEFF.
Narrative.. duh… World Series.. post season heroics.. Ortiz>Martinez for Cooperstown enshrinement; they should both be there.
As educated baseball fans can’t we just enjoy this article for what it is? A reflection of a hell of a player on his way out.
I personally don’t care for Ortiz, think he’s an assholes, but his accomplishments are undeniable. What Edgar did, the Hall, it’s all irrelevant. Ortiz was fun, he was clutch, and most importantly he was really, really good for a long time.
Put a down the pitchforks and be glad you were alive to witness it.
There have only been roughly 1700 players age 25 to 30 who have had 1,000 PA in a 3-year span since 1900???
Does anyone else find this amazing? I know there used to be less teams and no DH, but still, I can’t fathom how this number is so low!
I was with you until you brought A-Rod’s “stepping up” and “manning up” into it. He was backed into a corner with no way out and after denying use repeatedly, he finally admitting using as a strategy for gaining re-admittance to baseball. That was the ONLY reason.
“So 2016 will bring another farewell tour for another franchise icon…”
Can we just say no? I begrudgingly understood the Rivera and Jeter tours, even though I’m not a Yankee fan. They are both legitimate, first-ballot Hall-of-Fame players who played their entire careers for one team. Rivera’s tour was born out of his desire to thank fans in every city. He asked each team to identify a special group he could meet with on his last appearance in that city. The teams, in turn, decided to give Rivera a gift. It was all handled with dignity and at times a bit of humor. When Jeter preannounced his retirement the following year, it no longer was a case of meeting with fans, but doing a tour for the sake of a tour. My impression was Jeter wanted nothing to do with it, but for a man who was the often called the face of MLB, it was understandable.
I did have one fear. A blue print had been created for all future near-great players. Not clear Hall of Famers, but borderline players who want to elevate their stature on the way out. The cynical side of me says this has now come about and someone like Ortiz is going to demand the Red Sox work with teams to orchestrate farewell tours in each city. Hopefully I’m wrong, and it’s only Red Sox fans who will have a goodbye tour for Ortiz. The rest of MLB should pass because the bar for these tours will keep getting lower.
So, just to be clear: Mariano Rivera – dignified ambassador of the game; Derek Jeter – reluctant hero embarrassed of the limelight; David Ortiz – callow famewhore.
Retirement tours for me but not for thee. Right.
Wasn’t a fan of the Jeter tour either. My issue is with the trend. The bar will drop below Ortiz also. Yet if fans love it…
“… someone like Ortiz is going to demand the Red Sox work with other teams to orchestrate farewell tours …”
Yep, you’re just worried about the trend.
“David Ortiz – callow famewhore.”
Yeah, that’s basically spot-on
Really isn’t any guy who becomes indisputably “a franchise icon” worthy of a farewell tour and likely inclusion in the hall of fame? I mean how many guys reach that stature? I mean, we’re not talking about Jeff Conine here. I mean guys like Ripken, Jeter or, yes, Ortiz.
Not necessarily a fan of farewell tours myself, but I agree on the stature argument. It is not the Hall of the Best, or the Hall of WAR Leaderboards, it is the Hall of Fame. It is as much about baseball history as it is about honoring the greatest players. You would be remiss in your account of this era of baseball history if you did not acknowledge David Ortiz and his Red Sox teams that won three World Series after a historic drought.
Ortiz is that rarest case of a guy who should be in The Hall because he was a genuinely excellent (if not absolutely top-notch) player who dominated a big chunk of baseball with what he did and when he did it along with being a joyful presence who made the game more fun. The guy is just fun to watch, any at bat, any time. Jason Giambi, not so much.
Giambi was a better player though, so there is that.
Did you really expect to see an article about a player who defied the age curve, has previously been publicly associated with PEDs, and not get a bunch of “CHEATER” comments? I can’t look into the toaster either but I can sure expect someone to claim they can see DRUGS. Someone somewhere once said haters gonna hate.
If I was gonna “hate” on Ortiz, I’d make comments more along the lines of …
“Well yeah, no poop he hasn’t aged much … if doesn’t have to do as much as everyone else.” By that I mean that he doesn’t have to chase down fly balls, foul balls, field ground balls, run to the bag, or make a bunch of throws. He essentially gets to swing and jog.
I would be curious as to whether position players are more likely to get hurt in the field or at the plate. As someone that just turned 42 and has been athletic all my life and never really had to “warm up” to do something athletic, it’s been appparent to me for a few years that I am no longer to do things that “start fast” or “end fast” without a warmup period … otherwise my achilles, hamstrings, knees, or shoulders ache.
Not that my situation makes it true for everyone, but it does cause me to suspect that sprinting after baseballs and making hard throws, diving or sliding, etc is more difficult at older ages than hitting and jogging.