Derek Jeter: Not Just a Good Hitter for a Shortstop
Derek Jeter’s final game at Yankee Stadium ended like a Disney movie. That’s not an insult; moments like this are one of the reasons why we love baseball.
You don’t have to like Jeter or the Yankees to enjoy that moment. There is perhaps no better way for Jeter to leave Yankee Stadium than with a game-winning, opposite-field single.
As his career comes to a close, nearly everyone who covers baseball has weighed in on Jeter’s legacy, and unfortunately, part of that legacy is his status as a poster boy for disagreements between the traditional media and the statistically inclined crowd, especially regarding his defensive value. Jeter’s poor ratings at shortstop have made him the subject of numerous articles on defensive performance, and that has created the perception that Jeter has been a poor defender; a notion which Jeff did a nice job of debunking earlier this year.
But that’s not the only misconception I heard fairly regularly about Jeter. Perhaps because his career spanned the era where nearly ever team had a shortstop who could hit 30 home runs, even Jeter’s offensive value has been called into question, and more than once, I’ve had people ask me if Jeter was even really a great hitter; would we hold him in the same high esteem if he had (perhaps rightfully) been moved to an easier defensive position earlier in his career?
The answer should be yes, absolutely. Jeter doesn’t need to be compared to shortstops to be recognized as one of the best offensive performers of all time.
Let’s just start with the easiest way to look at this. In the history of baseball, 955 players have had careers spanning at least 5,000 plate appearances, and Jeter has more offensive runs above average than all but 89 of them. At 350 offensive runs above average — and remember, OFF is using the average hitter as a baseline with no regard to position — Jeter is actually a few runs ahead of David Ortiz (347 offensive runs above average) on the all-time leaderboard, and a significant chunk of baseball observers think Ortiz has earned a spot in the Hall of Fame despite being the ultimate defensive liability.
Of course, the primary driver of their respective rankings is playing time, as Jeter has nearly 4,000 more plate appearances than Ortiz. On a per plate appearance basis, Jeter isn’t Big Papi, but even if we even out playing time, Jeter still ranks ahead of some of the more notable sluggers of our time. For instance:
| Player | OFF/600 |
|---|---|
| Sammy Sosa | 18.4 |
| Derek Jeter | 16.7 |
| Adam Dunn | 15.5 |
| Ryan Howard | 15.3 |
Sosa hit 600 homers in his career, Dunn might get to 500, and while Howard has declined fairly rapidly, he was a legitimate force as a cleanup hitter for the better part of a decade. And Jeter has been their offensive equivalent, only he’s done it for 50 to 100 percent more plate appearances. Adam Dunn isn’t an all-time great player, of course, but if he had a 20 year career while performing at his career averages, would anyone question whether he was really a productive hitter?
Or, maybe you’d prefer to look at guys who did end up in the Hall of Fame, almost entirely because of what they did at the plate? For instance, there’s Dave Winfield (19.7 OFF/600), Eddie Murray (19.2), and Paul Molitor (18.2) just ahead of Jeter, with Robin Yount (10.1) a good deal below. Molitor is perhaps the best example, as he and Jeter had almost the same career on offense.
| Name | PA | BB% | K% | ISO | BABIP | AVG | OBP | SLG | wOBA | wRC+ | BsR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Derek Jeter | 12593 | 9% | 15% | 0.130 | 0.350 | 0.309 | 0.377 | 0.439 | 0.360 | 119 | 43.6 |
| Paul Molitor | 12167 | 9% | 10% | 0.142 | 0.326 | 0.306 | 0.369 | 0.448 | 0.361 | 122 | 46.6 |
Molitor was elected to the Hall of Fame on his first try, receiving 85 percent of the vote in the process, despite the fact that he spent nearly half of his career as a designated hitter. Molitor’s career is Jeter’s offense mixed with almost no defensive value, and he was an unquestioned Hall of Famer.
Jeter wasn’t Ted Williams, but he also wasn’t just an okay hitter who stands out because of his positional peers. We shouldn’t just see Jeter as a great hitter for a shortstop, but a great hitter period.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
Interestingly, Derek Jeter had the highes WPA of any single regular season game in his carreer last night…. Baseball.
Maybe even his entire carreer. But unfortunately the game logs don’t show postseason games.
If I ran my play index query right, and I’m pretty sure I did, Jeter’s highest postseason WPA was .331 in game 4 of the 2001 World Series, in which he hit a walk off home run in the bottom of the 10th inning in a tie game.
The end of career tour stuff need to stop. The media machine makes these guys more than they are, they are not solving world peace. I love baseball but the true honor should be enshrinement in the HOF (something Jeter and Mariano Rivera will enjoy I’m sure) This farewell tour crap is more a popularity contest then a real assessment of thier value to the game. What about a guy like Beltre, a much better player than Jeter but not the media darling. Does he get a farewell tour too? Idoubt it.
Jeter and Mo were the faces of the rebirth of baseball. Studies show that attendance and TV ratings are higher for teams hosting the Yankees than they are when those same teams host non-Yankees teams. People tune in to see their team take on the “bad guys”, and that’s incredibly important to baseball.
Jeter’s a great player, but this tour is more about him being the face of baseball and the leader of the rebirth of baseball than it is about him being an all-time great.
I gotta admit though, I am getting a little sick of his farewell tour.
Cal Iron Man Ripken was the savior of baseball after one strike. Mark Iron Blood McGwire after another. Griffey was the everloving face of MLB up until his ignonimous midseason canning. Ripken did get excessive farewelliness, but nowhere to this extent.
Not even Yankee fans should be able to stand Jetes after a year of national fellation at this scale.
Does anyone else think that it would be more fitting for the game on Sunday to end on a walk off hit that was hit “passed a diving Jeter”?
He’s also great camouflage for A-roid.
I think Jeter’s overall consistency is undervalued too as he had 13 straight years of at least 3.7 WAR (and often in the upper 4’s or higher).
I agree with this 100%. I think the problem is that he was consistently great but rarely transcendent. For me he is a no doubt first ballot hall of famer but it is so difficult to rationally discuss this guy because of the media hype. How many years was he the best player on his team? Two?
Hell, after 2004 he wasn’t even the best shortstop on his team.
You mean aside from the fact A-Rod can barely even stay on the field to play 3rd anymore, and from 2008-2010, Jeter was + 1.8 at short and A-Rod was -11.1 UZR at 3rd?
2004-2006, sure, A-Rod was a better fielder. And 2011 as well, when he could play. Aside fom that he couldn’t play 3rd well or was to hurt to play the field.
@Wobatus: I don’t think you mean to include 2006: In 2006, Jeter was probably the deserving AL MVP, and A-Rod, while having higher power numbers, had far and away his worst defensive year. He was basically 1999 Chuck Knoblauch at 3rd, throwing away many routine ground balls.
You’re right Spunky. In 2007 Jeter had one of his worst fielding years and A-Rod picked it back up a bit at 3rd.
Overall there’s no simple narrative that A-Rod was the better ss after 2004. It was likely true only in a few of the early years. After that Jeter was clearly the better ss. I can’t imagine A-Rod trying to play ss the last 5-6 years.
If A-Rod had stayed at SS, would he have bulked up less and actually maintained better performance longer? We’ll never know. He was defensively better at SS than at 3B, regardless of age, evidently.
@Spunky
AL players better than Jetes in 2006 (per fWAR and bWAR):
Grady Sizemore, Joe Mauer, Johan Santana
bWAR only:
Ortiz, Hafner, Guillen, Wells, Wang
fWAR only:
–
1998, 1999, 2006, maybe 2009.
Isn’t that the point though? Maybe he wasn’t the #1 guy year after year, but he was the most consistent one. If he wasn’t #1, Jeter would be in the discussion of being one of the top say 3 each season through 2010. Each year a different player can be tops on a team. He played with Bernie, Tino, O’Neil, ARod, Tex, etc. So yes not always #1, but you knew he was going to get his 100 runs, 300 avg, 70 RBIs, 15 SB + HRs. All of that from the #2 hole or leadoff. You’d take that every year, no?
He was the best player on 3 of the Yanks world champion teams by WAR.
That was my point even if I didn’t make it clear. Having he was so good for so long but he lacked the transcendent years. How many years was Mantle the best on the team? Dimaggio? Ruth (not fair but still)? These are the people the media want us to think Jeter was an equivalent to.
But he did have 3 or 4 transcendent years, 3 of which were for WS Champion teams.
But he did have 3 or 4 transcendent years, 3 of which were for WS Champion teams.
News to me guys…Michael Brantley is currently having a transcendent year per Cool Lester Smooth.
Is your point that you don’t understand how great Brantley has been this year?
And if you don’t think Jeter’s 1999 qualifies as “transcendent,” you need to check the dictionary.
Especially considering that Jeter’s never been linked to steroids, which (as mentioned above) suggests that he may be underrated by Relative-to-League stats.
My point is that transcendent needs a higher cut-off that 7 WAR (unless someone like Mo since he was a RP but still transcendent). Jeter has been amazing and consistently great. I have never once thought Jeter was in the conversation for the best player in baseball. Have you?
Actually, he lead the Yanks’ position players in bWAR in 1998, 1999, 2001, 2006, and 2009, and fWAR in all those years except 2001.
Sybil’s looking for you, tough guy.
Of the 5000+ PA crowd he has more offensive runs above average than 89 of them? That’s more than 1 every other season since baseball began. Color me unimpressed. With all the bombastic rhetoric of the last few months you’d think we were sending off one of the all time great players in history.
I mean Jeter only has 10 more WAR than Edgar Martinez, a designated hitter, in ~700 more games.
I’m glad this season is coming to a close just so I don’t have to hear any more of this ridiculous worship. Good riddance.
Note that I mean worship from other media outlets, not fangraphs. And hell I don’t even have cable TV and I’ve been exposed to a disturbing amount of it. I can’t imagine how bad ESPN is.
No, he has more offensive runs above average than all *but* 89 of them. So he’s 90th out of 955.
You post on FG yet you hate baseball… hey man, how you spend your time is your own deal…
You’re missing a couple important words there. “All but” 89 of them. Meaning he’s 90th out of 955 players in that category all-time.
Yeah, a typo. I did mean all *but*, so ranking 90th… not impressive, considering the hullaballoo going on right now.
Jeter ranks in the top 10 percent of a crowd that, by definition, consists largely of excellent MLB players – you generally don’t get 5,000 plate appearances if you aren’t very good. That’s a pretty impressive credential.
I don’t think Spacelord is saying it is unimpressive.
I think the point is that, while impressive, it back up the quantity and quality of accolades showered on Jeter.
Someone can be great (an all-time great, even) and still be over-rated. Jeter is a great example of that phenomenon.
Well, except for when he says “not impressive”…
I’m about to go off on a pretty serious tangent here, and I apologize to the multitude of Jeter fans around here. I don’t think anyone can reasonably argue that Jeter does not deserve a place in the Hall, no matter how overrated he may (or may not) seem, but speaking of Edgar Martinez…
Paul Molitor’s OFF/600 was 18.2, he had a career wOBA of .361, career wRC+ of 122, a slash of .306/.369/.448, amassing 67.7 WAR, and he was an “unquestioned Hall of Famer” despite providing “almost no defensive value”.
David Ortiz’s OFF/600 is (to date) 23.5, he has a career wOBA of .391, wRC+ of 138, a slash line of .285/.379/.547, with 43.3 WAR, and “a significant chunk of baseball observers think Ortiz has earned a spot in the Hall of Fame despite being the ultimate defensive liability”.
Edgar Martinez’ OFF/600 was 34.6 — nearly twice Molitor’s total, and 1.5x Ortiz’s. His career wOBA is .406 and wRC+ is 147, both of which are a fair bit higher than either Molitor or Ortiz. His career slash line is .312/.418/.515, all of which are much better than either of the other two, save Ortiz’s (admittedly very impressive) slugging percentage. Edgar accrued 65.6 WAR over his career, which is only 2 fewer wins than Molitor, and he did so in 2/3 as many plate appearances.
Molitor provided some legitimate value on the basepaths which can’t be overlooked, and Ortiz still has some gas left in the tank to build on his numbers, but that Edgar is unlikely to ever get elected to the Hall through the natural process is absurd given just how good he was.
Not sure why you felt you had to apologize. Edgar Martinez deserving a place in the Hall takes nothing away from Jeter.
Mostly because of the tangential nature of it. This article is about Jeter, and it’s not my intention to draw the focus away from him.
Edgar was a beast when he was in his prime. no need to apologize for that.
What’s actually pathetic is that this off-topic but very welcome screed could have been written about at least twenty other hitters.
I did a regression analysis to determine the objective HOF standards for hitters that the BBWAA applied to classic-era players, and there was actually a great deal of consistency, with peak value showing up much more importantly than in JAWS (the criterion was basically 2 * WAR5 + WAR). I’ve added as thorough a tweaking as I can to adjust for military service, reduced PT for catchers, changes in the size of the talent pool, and so on.
There’s is of course a point in this metric above which every 20th century classic-era player has been inducted. The last five on this list are Slaughter, Sisler, Hartnett, Ashburn, and Elmer Flick; Sherry Magee is the highest-rated omission.
Eligible contemporary players above this bar, in order, are Bonds, Piazza, Bagwell, Grich, Walker, Biggio, Raines, Trammel, Palmeiro, Dick Allen, Buddy Bell, Nettles, Dwight Evans, Simmons, Edgar, Whitaker, McGwire, Sosa, Keith Hernandez, Munson, Bando, Freehan, Reggie Smith, Ken Boyer, and Olerud.
The BBWAA track record with post-expansion players goes beyond dismal in the direction of sickening (e.g., Ron Santo). The combination of inept analysis and unjustifiable nostalgic raising of the bar has been devastating to the Hall’s integrity.
and that’s just the hitters…
Schilling, Mussina, Kevin Brown, Pettitte, Halladay. Just to name a few who look like they will be fighting an uphill battle, a.k.a. getting the Blyleven.
Ok, Griff, don’t take this as an attack, but I have to point something out here.
I absolutely understand that all the media attention that Derek’s retirement has gotten makes many of us want to throw up. It’s a ridiculous overplay simply to draw in viewers.
That said, get sick of the heinous commercialism, not Derek Jeter. As annoying as it is, Jeter and the fans who love him shouldn’t have to hear him put down all the time and have a very special event tainted just because people are tired of hearing about him. When you begin attacking his career, it starts to come off like that. I’m just saying that you want to be careful about what it looks like you are ragging on: Jeter’s career or the media hype around it.
All I want is for this stuff to be in the proper context. Derek Jeter is not Jesus resurrected, which is what the media would have you believe.
Well, of course he isn’t, but he’s also not Hank Aaron or one of the other all time greats.
Derek Jeter was a good, sometimes great baseball player for a solid chunk of 20 years. That’s it.
The only reason for this incredible circlejerk is that he played for the New York Yankees the entire time.
Look at Edgar Martinez. 8 fewer WAR in 700 fewer games. Playing DH. Career wRC+ 28 points higher than Jeter. And nobody gives a sh*t about Edgar Martinez.
Look at Ken Griffey Jr. 21 seasons, career WAR a little bit higher than Jeter. I don’t remember anything remotely close to this magnitude of a circus when he retired.
No titles. Didn’t play in New York.
Beautiful, great player, but if you’re looking for reasons, those are them.
Out of those players, he’s in the 90th percentile of players.
Why can’t we just look at it objectively? The guy was a damn good hitter, and like Jeff Sullivan said, if he was “the worst” at shortstop, he was “the worst” defender out of the best group of defenders. Sometimes hating a Yankee is just the trendy thing to do I suppose.
He’s a shortstop, competing on a list of hitters that include outfielders and firstbasemen.
I’m impressed.
Your comparison to Edgar Martinez is a good argument that Martinez should’ve gotten more support for the Hall of Fame (that and Martinez’ career record against Mariano Rivera), not a real knock against Jeter.
Think about that: a man who is acknowledged to be a poor defender at shortstop is 10 WAR better than a great hitter of 0 defensive value like Martinez.
Edgar Martinez didn’t put up 0 defensive value.
Career positional, fielding and defensive (cumulative of those two) values for Martinez v Jeter
Fld: 16 v -145.3
Pos: -133.5 v 117.6
Def: -133.5 v -27.7
Martinez was a much better hitter than Jeter.
Martinez was a much, much better hitter than Jeter.
Unfortunately, he was no longer able to even fake the field for the last 10 years of his career, and the difference between being a full time DH and being a poor defensive shortstop, combined with the fact that the Ms trapped Edgar in the minors for far too long, means that he didn’t provide as much value over his career as Jeter did.
Well in all honesty Edgar Martinez should have been a first ballot hall of famer. He was the best offensive player in the AL more than once during the steroid era and never did steroids!
I’d have thought the fact he was a DH for most of his career would prevent 1st ballot status, but I’m very surprised he hasn’t gotten much more support. He was a legitimately dominant hitter for a dozen years.
Jeter’s value comes from sustained excellence. The other guys on this list had better peak years, but they also had more down years.
You mention that it is a Disney movie moment yet, in 20 years, we’ll probably be going to theaters to watch “Jeter”, the riveting story of the greatest SS ever and some guy who helped him through it (clearly played by Jon Hamm). Only the single will be become a homerun to clinch a playoff berth or something.
and they’ll be playing the Red Sox
Tony Danza will play Girardi, Brett Gardner will be played by the Great Gazoo, and Teixeira will be played by California Chrome.
what can Jose Canseco contribute?
What a final moment, what a player, what a guy. Clutch, captain and classy.
Great player. Hall of famer. The hype for his last game was ridiculous. MLB Network not switching to a game that has meaning and instead focusing on all of the post game interviews in New York was an embarrassment. Alan Trammell was just as good as Jeter and can’t even get a sdniff of the Hall of Fame.
I would love for you to justify that Alan Trammel means as much to the sport of baseball as Derek Jeter has…
In what ways is Trammell “Just as good” as Jeter?
In what ways is he not?
Gift Baskets Above Replacement.
Didn’t give herpes to Scarlett Johansson
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=1977&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=826,1013157
Alan was a good player, but Jeter has a pretty clear edge here. It’s not a huge edge, but it’s pretty easily discernable. Trammell was a far better defensive player, but Jeter was roughly 10% better offensively. It’s not huge, but that’s not nothing either.
Using JAWS as a quick and dirty stat Jeter and Trammel are an entirely appropriate comparison. Larkin can get slotted in there too. According to BREF:
Jeter 71.7/42.2/57.0
Trammel 70.4/44,6/57.5
Larkin 70.2/43.1/56.6
They have similar total WAR for their career (Jeter out front), similar peaks (Trammel out front) and similar JAWS scores (with Jeter just barely out front).
JAWS is far from perfect — but it encapsulates the argument. Of course, none of this is argument against Jeter. Just drives home how sad it is that Trammel has yet to make the Hall.
Yeah, it’s absurd that Alan Trammel isn’t in the HOF.
The fact is more people nationwide are interested in seeing Jeter.
Secondly, fans are watching their team play on their local channel.
*Alan Trammell was ALMOST as good as Jeter and can’t even get a sniff of the Hall of Fame. They had similar peaks and Jeter had significantly more longevity.
That’s fair. I’d take Trammell’s 5 year peak over Jeter’s, but admittedly, I’m biased. Jeter played in around 500 more games and accumulated about +10 WAR. Jeter was better offensively and Trammell much better defensively.
I actually like the Paul Molitor comp – which simultaneously points to Jeter’s Hall worthiness and his overratedness. I don’t think any of Jeter’s critics are asserting that he isn’t HOF worthy – just that similarly valuable players in history failed to receive near the amount of media glorification. I’d say most of this discrepancy can be attributed to him playing his entire career in NYC as a Yankee, on multiple WS teams.
And also the fact that he’s very, very good with the media, and universally recognized as the leader of 5 World Series champion teams, the first four of which took place in his 22-26 seasons.
It’s not just because he’s a Yankee, it’s because he’s Derek Jeter, and that really does mean something to a hell of a lot of people.
“also the fact that he’s very, very good with the media”
Captain bland? No, he never went on a rant about the Jews or anything, but let’s not pretend he was exactly illuminating either.
“universally recognized as the leader of 5 World Series champion teams” Simply not true, williams, o’neill, etc.
Bernie was never considered the leader. He was an integral part of the dynasty, but he was never “The” guy, on any Yankees team he played on.
Paulie is another story, as is Cone, but Jeter became the face of the franchise pretty much from jump in 1996.
“I’d say most of this discrepancy can be attributed to him playing his entire career in NYC as a Yankee, on multiple WS teams.”
Well, “on multiple WS teams” is a legitimately big deal and not part of any “discrepancy”.
Many many players play on multiple WS teams – that feat alone DOES NOT make them all-time greats. I’m not even sure it should be much of a consideration in our career evaluations of players – being as it has so much to do with the quality of your teammates, and so little to do with one’s individual accomplishments.
What about his being worth roughly 5 WAR in the full season of playoff games he’s accrued?
He’s actually put up a .006 higher wOBA than his career line, despite playing only against division and Wild Card winners.
I’m a stats guy, but I’m sick of seeing statheads pointing to every famous player and talking about how over-rated they are.
Baseball players are human beings. They have personas. Derek Jeter played 20 seasons, won 5 World Series and 7 pennants, and is widely regarded as an outstanding leader with a great work ethic who has been an example not just for his teammates but for every player in the Yankees organization. In an era when so many elite athletes seem to get involved in off-the-field controversies, Jeter has played 20 seasons without a single tarnish on his personal record.
The most popular players will never necessarily be the *best* players. Get used to it. Derek Jeter’s whole story is incredible and he is a great man, and people like that. Sure, there are some commenters out there comparing his baseball prowess to Mickey Mantle, or calling him “the best player within the last 20 years,” and those people are definitely over-rating him as a player. However, generally speaking I have no problem whatsoever with all the attention and “worship” he’s gotten this season and throughout his career. He deserves it.
And just to pre-empt anybody who is tempted to call me a biased Yankees fan, I am actually a die-hard Red Sox fan. Last night was the first time I ever stood up and cheered when the Yankees won a game.
Yes the problem is the people pointing out over-rated players…Not, you know, the people over-rating them in the first place.
To the extent that people say “Jeter is today’s Mickey Mantle” or “Jeter is the greatest player of all time” they are over-rating him, sure. I have no problem with people pointing it out, either. However, I don’t think Jeter is at all over-rated as a PERSON, and I think he deserves all the attention he gets.
Exactly. The reason Jeter is an icon isn’t just because he’s a top 5 SS of all time; it’s because he’s considered one of the best people to play the game.
“it’s because he’s considered one of the best people to play the game.”
Whoa, whoa, whoa, let’s slow that train down. Let’s not pretend we know what goes in people’s private lives. He hasn’t gotten in a whiff of trouble, which is great and admirable; but let’s not put him on a pedestal as though we know everything he does, says, or thinks. We’ve seen time and again athletes failing to live up to that ridiculous level of adulation (and that’s no fault of theirs, they’re only human and can make mistakes like the rest of us peons; it’s we fans who build them up into demigods).
I agree with you. That’s why I didn’t say a damn thing about Derek Jeter’s private life.
Did say that he is one of the best people to play the game?
No, I did not.
I said that Derek Jeter is considered one of the best people to play the game.
Those are two very, very different things.
@Jason B – Couldn’t agree more. Look at Tiki Barber. Everybody loved the guy. He wasn’t just a great player, as the Giants all time leader in rushing, he was universally considered to be a great buy. He had a great smile and was always warm and engaging. He appeared in off-Broadway plays and did some news reporting on the side during his playing career. He was so good at the off-the-field stuff that he retired at the top of his game in 2006 with over 2100 yards from scrimmage. NBC immediately hired him to high profile positions as a member of the Today Show and Football Night in America. It all looked great until it wasn’t. It began when he slammed Eli Manning and his leadership several times and basically said the Giants would never win anything with him at QB. He looked overmatched and was completely bombing his gig on the Today Show. Then the death blow came when he got caught banging a teenage intern which wouldn’t have been so bad if it weren’t for the fact that he was married and his wife was pregnant at the time. NBC canned him, the Giants won the Superbowl beating the previously unbeatable Patriots the very next year after his retirement, and he went through a very ugly and public divorce. Tiki, once one of the most beloved NY sports figures and a can’t miss media talent, is now broke and the last thing I can remember hearing about was his failed attempt at an NFL comeback at age 36.
Would it surprise me if Jeter took that same path? Yeah but it sure as shit wouldn’t totally shock me.
He also slept with a hell of a lot of beautiful women.. That counts for something, right?
“I have no problem whatsoever with all the attention and “worship” he’s gotten this season and throughout his career. He deserves it.”
I think the extent to which ‘he deserves it’ is exactly what people are trying to discuss…
Okay, fair enough. Some are certainly just “trying to discuss” that. That’s fine. Others are commenting things like this:
“I can’t wait till he’s safely retired and everyone shuts up about him.”
Right, Trammell should probably be in the Hall of Fame. That has nothing to do with Jeter, or the Yankees, or the MLB Network. It has to do with the HoF voters.
Jeter is a deserving HoFer, so no need to tear him him down in comparison to Trammell. They should BOTH be in.
Now, if you want to go off on say, Jim Rice, and the absurd campaign to get him in over Trammell, by all means…
Alan Trammell should be in the Hall.
So should Lou Whitaker.
Again. New York Media. Yankees make the playoffs every year. Jeter on national TV 5-20 times every fall for 18 years. 5 rings.
It’s not fair, but it is why.
“Jeter is actually a few runs ahead of David Ortiz”
Cherry Pickin’ Dave has done it again. Too bad Ortiz can’t run from here to there without collapsing, and OFF factors in base running. Jete’s 119 wRC+ gets him 242 all-time out of players with at least 2100 ABs.
Jeter was a great hitting SS period
And comparing him to Adam Dunn and Ryan Howard may not be the best strategy for countering detractors either.
It’s too bad baserunning has nothing to do with a player’s ability to help his team score runs!
Also, it’s very, very funny that you think his being a Top 250 hitter on a rate basis among everyone who has played four full seasons of professional baseball is proof of anything other than his being a historically great offensive player.
It’s sad, too, but it’s mostly funny.
I heard MLB was going to change the rules and let the Yankees play in the World Series this year. You know, because Jeets earned it.
No one is saying Jeter wasn’t great. No one thinks he shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame. But people are treating him like he is going to sacrifice his life to save the planet from an asteroid or something.
When you “knock” Jeter’s offense or defense, what you’re really doing is suggesting he just might not be the greatest player of all time. And I think Jeter-Nation needs that reminder sometimes, honestly.
No – I think people are treating him like he is the most beloved player in the past 50yrs for America’s Pastime. Drop away the performance arguments and counter-arguments and just think of that for a moment. Jeter is the most respected and beloved player in the sport that you love for the past 50yrs. And that is “how people are treating him.”
Which is to say he’s the most beloved player in the largest US city that spends the most money marketing. Woo-hoo.
It’s almost as if baseball is a business? Who wouldve guessed? The Jeter love is very over the top, but his career mixed with his off the field behavior, is something unique in the days where Twitter and social media rule all.
He’s was great player who wasn’t an asshole. That’s not unique.
Exactly. I was in a business meeting the other day where someone was expounding upon how impressive it was that Jeter went his whole career without any public controversy. Seriously? If that’s true than almost everyone I know should be commended. None of us ever had drug problems, got DUIs, or beat up women either. No amount of media scrutiny would have unearthed anything. That’s just the standard for being a normal, decent person.
Well, except for the whole, you know, playing at a Hall of Fame level for 20 years in the biggest media fishbowl without anything like a major scandal, and succeeding in the most pressure filled games more often than most players. Other than that, you guys are just like Jeter.
If you asked baseball fans who they’re favorite, most beloved, most respected player was over the last 50 years, fewer than 10% would say Derek Jeter. Probably fewer than 5%.
making up stats.
………and it was still be a higher percentage than any other player
you seem angry….I can feel your jealousy and bitterness through the computer screen. jeter is better at life than you. if it makes you that mad, go for a walk.
spouting stats about his popularity that you pulled out of your ass just makes you look petty. hes the most popular player of the past 30 years. that’s not really arguable.
Most people would respond with a player from their home team, and answers would thus be all over the board. I’m from Milwaukee and my most beloved (active) player is Carlos Gomez, who many would consider the exact opposite of beloved.
Jeter, on the other hand, would be at or near the top of most New Yorkers’ lists and in the top 10 for many non-Yankee fans. So even if your hypothetical 5-10% is correct (seems a reasonable guess), that would still be more than enough to qualify Jeter as The Most Beloved Player.
The thing with Jeter is he’s overrated by Yankee fans and underrated by everyone else. The Yankees want you to believe he’s right there with Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle, which is a joke obviously. But when you look at his careers, they’re really good.
Just got back from my walk.
I made up stats in response to a made up declaration that Jeter is the most beloved player of the last 50 years. Yankee fanboys cried about it. I also think Cal Ripken was more popular (or “respected and beloved”) at his highest point. Pete Rose might have been, too. People loved that guy.
In 20 years, if you ask people who their most beloved player over the last 50 years is, Jeter will be lucky to still be #1 among Yankee fans.
i hate the Yankees. am an Astros fan in fact (hardy har har)… but ive always liked and respected jeter. you just come across as a bitter red sox or bitter braves fan with some of your posts. that or someone pissed in your cheerios.
your arguments are absurd and it makes you look petty. you can be sick of the media coverage on him, but an argument about his popularity being overrated is hard to take seriously. hes the most popular player in modern history,and its not close. not with ripken, not with anyone.
youre a braves or red sox fan and youre angry. take a few deep breaths, realize jeter is an icon whether you want him to be or not, and just move on.
Point to Slugger…. Well put.
I don’t at all hate Jeter. I was at the game on Sunday and I cheered for him every time he came up and when he got those two hits. He is honestly one of my favorite players. This is all just way over the top and that is my point. And I think you are projecting with your comments about anger.
Slugger27 –
I think it really depends on your region. On the West Coast I NEVER hear people talk about Jeter. I have no doubt that folks in NYC or are from NYC have nothing but love for Jeter. Here, most people are just mehhhh when it comes to Jeter.
TKDC, Pete Rose? People loved Pete Rose? Lots of people hated Pete Rose long before the gambling stuff. Bud Harrelson/Ray Fosse/Charlie Hustle Pete Rose?
I’d say Ken Griffey Jr. would be #1
“No – I think people are treating him like he is the most beloved player in the past 50yrs for America’s Pastime.”
Exactly! The *best* players will not and should not necessarily be the *most beloved* players. Statheads need to get that through their heads. I think they make us look bad when they’re clamoring to knock Jeter down a few pegs.
This is a completely subjective statement and I doubt it has any basis in useful fact. If you asked people in other markets who the ‘most beloved’ player from the last 50 is you’d get market specific guys like Kirby Puckett, Chipper Jones, Griffey, etc.
I will accept that Jeter is ‘most beloved’ only in the context that New York is a bigger market than most. And hence the resentment – because they are The Big Market, many New York fans have been pandered to by the media to the point that they’ve projected their own feelings about, and desire to hear praise of, Derek Jeter onto the rest of the country and can’t fathom why other people aren’t interested, and why people from other markets are saying “Hey, what about our guy Trammell/Biggio/Molitor/etc.?”
To the first point, sure, I’ll grant that I don’t really know for sure whether Jeter is the “most beloved.” I’m sure if you polled the whole country though that he’d be up there.
To the second point, that is never going to change. Baseball is a business and it responds to demand, and New York happens to be a big chunk of the demand.
What is so bad about worshipping Jeter? I just don’t get it. Over-rated or not, he’s a great guy and a role model to just about anybody. What is so bad about stopping to make a big deal about that at the end of his 20 season, 5 championship career? Honestly, the stat guys choosing this moment to clamor about Jeter’s over-ratedness looks so envious and resentful, and turns off traditional fans from learning more about the game from us.
Here’s another way to think about – instead of calling Jeter “over-rated,” why don’t you focus on Trammell and Biggio being under-rated? I’d be with you, then.
Yes Luke, I would be on the same page with you with the statement “Overrated compared to the treatment of similar players” or “Similar players are underrated compared to the treatment of Jeter”. It’s not an indictment of Jeter, he is a great player at a high value position, it’s an indictment of people’s attitudes.
Chipper? Is he even the most beloved Brave of the last 50 years?
I’m reminded of that Onion article.
Who, Lester?
Dale Murphy? Hank Aaron?
I think there are as many Yankee fans who’d say Mariano Rivera, Don Mattingly, or Mickey Mantle as he technically fits the criteria. If it is really cut and dry, 100% the easy answer, you probably played for a shitty team. I’m looking at you, Tony Gwynn (RIP).
I was thinking Smoltz or Maddux, but I mainly wanted an excuse to post this article:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/nation-dumbfounded-as-to-why-littleleaguers-favori,2716/
The black man who “stole” Babe Ruth’s record was certainly not one of the most popular players of a baseball team based in 60s and 70s Georgia.
Was anyone arguing that he should not be in the HoF?
More career WAR than Barry Larkin, Ron Santo,Tony Gwynn, Ernie Banks, Ryne Sandberg, Pee Wee Reese, Frankie Frisch. He deserves to be in the HOF, but the hype is because he plays for the Yankees. If he played for the Brewers and had the same stats he would still be in th HOF, just without the giant farewell tour.
What if he had been on 5 world series winning Brewer teams and was the best player by WAR on 3 of them?
He would never have won 5 WS on the Brewers.
Chipper had a tour. If he can have one, so can Jeter.
is there anyway to calculate the probability of the events that happened in the 9th?
Yes.
The question isn’t whether Derek Jeter is an excellent ballplayer deserving of first round induction in the Hall. No reasonably knowledgeable and unbiased individual is denying that. The question is whether Jeter is the Greatest Baseball Player of All Time. And if he really isn’t even one of the top 20, the next question is: how are they going to top this when somebody truly outstanding retires? Will there be any re2pect left over? Will Kershaw have his mug chiseled onto Mount Rushmore? Will Pujols be elevated to the papacy? Will Trout be named dictator for life of a country to be named later? Inquiring minds want to know.
Again, you are guilty of arguing a straw man… No one thinks he is the greatest… His coverage has more to do his popularity than his performance. I can’t see why people don’t get this…
You love baseball – you’d think you would had noticed that Jeter is a once in a generation player in the collective fans’ mind…
Well, i think this is part of what people are complaining about. Most people are sick of having New York “heroes” rammed down our throats. I can appreciate that Jeter was a hall of fame player. The “most beloved” thing is a media creation, imo.
Agreed – many fan bases have ‘beloved’ players who are equally as good as Jeter (the Molitor example) – yet the rest of the country didn’t have to put up with their victory laps when they retired.
“what people are complaining about…”
I’d challenge you to name a player since 1960 who has been as identified with the sport as Jeter.
I live in the Bay Area and am an A’s season ticket holder. I coach LL out here and every kid loves Jeter and Posey – universally. This is not a NY thing, as much as you’d like it to be…
I’m pretty sure Chipper got a nice victory lap too (and Mariano, but he’s a Yankee). It seems to be something that’s going to happen from now on when probable Hall of Famers announce retirement. Is a lot of it shoved down our throats by the media so they can squeeze every last viewer out of it? Of course.
But I remember a saying that many of our mothers probably taught us.
“If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.”
I don’t think too many of the people here really would say Jeter is the best player of the last 30 years if you put a gun to our head and asked the question. But he’s among the elite players of that period, and he’s many people’s favorite. People’s favorite player isn’t always the best player. Hell, I love Luis Valbuena.
What I’m trying to say is that I wish people would realize that it’s not very nice to put someone down when people want to celebrate him/her and rightfully so.
Popularity is dictated. In this case, it is a product of the ESPN 24-hour sports cycle, NIKE’s advertising, the Yankee’s home in the world’s largest media market. Oh, and the fact that Jeter isn’t Alex Rodriguez.
Interesting comparisons abound. Jeter is somewhat better than Craig Biggio, but not that much. Both were compilers who played on the same team their entire careers. Biggio couldn’t even get elected to the Hall his first try, while Jeter is a rock star. And poor Greg Maddux. Truly one of the all-time greats at his position, but bland. Looked like a high school social studies teacher, so not marketable. He had no hyped up farewell tour.
I like Derek Jeter. I like the Yankees. Loved watching a game at the old Yankee Stadium. But Jeter a generational player? Really? The collective fans’ mind…perhaps I can’t read it like you can. But I suspect most people think what they are told to think.
So to be clear, your world-view is that people are told what to like by ESPN and Nike… rather than Nike and ESPN being commercial entities that chase what viewers and consumers demand?
Has it occurred to you that this coverage is a RESPONSE to Jeter’s popularity and not a cause of it?
I agree with ‘Death to Flying Things’ – Jeter’s popularity is largely a construct, created by the media and him simply being a Yankee. You think if he played in KC his whole career, we would even be having this conversation?
Another part of it is that there hasn’t really been a ‘truly great’ Yankee for a while. They had been spoiled in the 1940-70 era, with HOF many many HOF candidates on each team. The WS teams of the 90s were different – pretty much just Jeter, and I guess Rivera (and Clemens for a few of those years) are the no doubt HOF guys on those teams. The fact that he had little inter-team competition for the face of the Yankee franchise for the entirety of his career helped elevate him to an undeserved immortal status.
Chicken or the egg question. The marketing fanfare around Jeter hypes him which creates even more of a market.
I like the Biggio comp, everyone complained that Biggio was ‘just a compiler’ and not dominant, yet Jeter is Biggio trading HR and SB, for some BA. So Jeter is similarly a ‘compiler’ only he compiled less. Their fielding is basically a wash. Anyone who votes for Jeter first ballot and left Biggio off is being intellectually dishonest.
@Matt – thing is, Jeter didn’t play in KC. The Yankees have 27 World Series titles (5 with Jeter). They are one of the greatest most storied franchises in all sports, worldwide. The fact that Jeter played for them is part of his legend.
I went to a game in KC a couple weeks ago. They were right in the thick of a playoff race, set to make the playoffs for the firt time in forever, and the stands were half empty most of the game and then almost completely empty when they were down 3 runs in the 8th inning. Think that would be the case for a playoff race Yankees game in mid-September?
Well except for that whole Jeter playing well in the post-season, and Biggio playing like crap thing. That makes Jeter a somewhat better HOF candidate (always has, by the way), but it is a key reason why he’s much more highly thought of, even if he isn’t that much better, career considered as a whole.
Molitor is a better comparison because he was a great post-season hitter, too. Much better than Jeter, but in far fewer games. And then there’s the whole Molitor was mostly a DH later in his career. Maybe Jeter should’ve been one, too, but the Yanks had other guys for that.
And who made you the speaker for this “fan collective”? What are we, Borg?
In just my lifetime we’ve had, at short, Jeter, Ripken, A-Rod, Ozzie Smith, Vizquel, Trammell, Larkin, all remarkable players in their own ways. Jeter has been a great player, but once in a generation? This is the type of hyperbole that sets people off…
No one says he’s the greatest. The most rabid Jeter fans might put him over Yogi as the fifth best Yankee of all time, but no one other than assholes looking for something to bitch about thinks that anyone considers Jeter is the best player of all time.
If we assume PED use was a major cause of the inflated offense in the 90s-early aughts, and that Jeter never used, doesn’t WAR underrate him? (This is generally true for any adjustments for run scoring environment that did not affect a particular player). We’ll never know. What if Jeter would still have been able to put up roughly the same numbers, even in a lower run scoring environment?
Why do we assume Jeter never used PEDs?
Exactly. Jeter has close friends and team mates that were using at that time.
And that proves exactly what? You could make the same statement about every player that played during the steroid era.
Literally every player.
We don’t really know, so yeah, it is just an assumption. I’m just saying IF it’s true he was clean, then to the extent the inflated offense of that time was due to PED use, then WAR may be underrating how good he was. WAR assumes Jeter benefited equally from the higher run scoring environment as any other player. That may not be a totally fair assumption though.
This would also apply to any other position player who was clean during that era.
Yeah, that is the insidious thing about steroids, and I’m generally a “fuck it, I don’t care anymore” guy when it comes to PEDs.
Because he’s never been tested positive, never been rumored? Because 1/2 the Mitchell report came from the Yankee clubhouse, and Jeter was never mentioned, not even tangentially?
I assume he never used them because there is no evidence or rumor he ever used them. Your mileage may vary.
BUT! How many of those 89 players better than Jeter have a Movado watch with a big number 2 where the 2 should be? Exactly- none!
Jeter played his entire career with one of the most popular franchises in sports. His career coincided with the return of the glory years, of the most successful franchise in the sport, who had been down for 1.5 decades. He was the SS and face of the franchise for a dynasty that won 4 championships in 5 years. He had a hall of fame career in New York City…….And you people can’t comprehend why he might have more publicity than Paul Molitor and Alan Trammel? Seriously? Do you not understand marketing and the business of baseball?
You appear to be describing why he has publicity. I don’t think anyone here would deny that he has publicity for these reasons extrinsic to himself.
You go wrong when you turn this objective statement of fact into a normative statement; in other words, turning a statement of ‘is’ into one of ‘ought’ without any sort of warrant.
In other words, should we regard him as better because he was drafted by the Yankees? *Should* we regard him as superior because he was drafted by the New York Yankees, a team with enough money to pay him a $190M contract without hamstringing themselves in the long term?
Because ultimately, that’s what this comes down to. He was drafted by the Yankees, and the Yankees could afford to pay him $190M without delivering terrible damage to the long-term ability of their franchise to operate. Think about the implications of that. That’s a privilege afforded to *very* few teams; in turn, heroism of Jeter’s proportion can only be achieved by those players who either:
a) Were drafted by one of maybe five or six MLB ballclubs
b) Take a contract so absurdly below market value that they do terrible harm to the MLBPA’s cause
I think this conclusion is correct, that a career and legend like Jeter’s can happen only in New York. See Minnesota with Mauer – and that’s really the only comparable I have, because Jeter’s was the 9th most lucrative in contract in history and the only one more lucrative inked before 2012 were both given to Alex Rodriguez.
Which is why you implying that ignorance of economic and marketing realities is just the least bit ridiculous. I don’t speak for everyone, certainly, but for some, or at least myself, it is because they recognize these realities that folks of smaller-market teams might get just the least bit annoyed by it.
Understand?! Of course we understand! That’s why we’re complaining! A great majority of this Jeter hype is because of marketing, and that is annoying to no end.
You don’t enjoy sports because of marketing. We enjoy sports for watching the world’s greatest athletes compete on an even field and seeing which one comes ahead. We don’t enjoy seeing which marketing spin expert can make fill in the blank player more popular than another!! Its damned frustrating this emphasis on popularity.
Derek Jeter is a great player. A hall of fame player. Was he stop what you are doing and turn on the tv whenever he is on screen level of great? No. He is not at the Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Lionel Messi, or Wayne Gretzky level. Perhaps no baseball player of this era is. So let’s just let the hype go down. Please.
“Molitor’s career is Jeter’s offense mixed with almost no defensive value.” Agreed. Or put another way, Jeter’s career is Molitor’s offense mixed with the defensive value of a mediocre SS. Look, most of us who hate the Myth of Jeter recognize that he’s a first ballot HOFer and deservedly so. We just dislike the mythology which attempts to separate him from the other similarly great players who are not discussed with such reverence. Do you think that, if Molitor was able to play mediocre defense his entire career, he would be remembered any differently?
The way some people talk, you’d think Jeter costs the Yankees 3 wins a year with his lack of range. I look it up, and his career UZR/150 -7.0 …. not even a full win per season, and closer to half a win. And that’s not even counting his prime years, where he was undoubtedly quicker and more athletic.
Haters gonna hate.
Jeter, to me, represents everything about sports and life that I could never achieve. That is, one of those people that is preternaturally confident regardless of the situation, AND socially astute enough to turn every situation into a popularity booster. I resent him for it, but its mostly my problem. In reality, this approach has undoubtedly served him well in the form of all-world consistency and ability to play up to has natural talent in the most pressing of circumstances. Even as he was the bane of my baseball-fandom existence growing up, I fully respect him as a player, and (begrudgingly) as a person.
That being said, I have no problem railing on the disproportionate media attention he has received over the course of his career. He’s received perhaps the most egregious long-term positive bias I’ve ever seen in sports. For 15 years now, he’s been beyond criticism, receiving heaps of praise for such vagaries as “intangibles,” “leadership,” and “charisma”. These types of descriptions have their place, don’t get me wrong, but the extended exaltation of the “legend” of Derek Jeter flies in the face of everything resembling objective, analytical analysis. Jeter: nice work, great career, enjoy your retirement. Mainstream media: CHILL THE FRICK OUT
I can’t wait till he’s safely retired and everyone shuts up about him.
Well put. Thank you for knowing yourself well enough to be able to sort out your emotions and point them in the proper directions.
It’s really hard to maintain Jeter’s offensive consistency and play SS, albeit below average, almost every day. Molitor tried to “play mediocre defense his entire career”, but he couldn’t stay on the field until he became a full-time DH.
Since I’m a Tigers fan, I looked at Jeter vs. Trammell as offensive players. It’s a straight peak vs. career argument.
Jeter, ten best seasons by OPS+: 153 32 28 27 25* 25 25 25 24 21
*2003, only 119 games (the Toronto collision year)
Trammell, ten best seasons by OPS+: 155 38 38 38* 36 30 20 13 (97) (92)
*1993, only 112 games (split SS/3B/CF)
Trammell wins big on peak, but he has six full and four partial seasons (min. 200 PA) with an OPS+ below 100. In the midst of his prime, he tossed in two stinkers in 1985 and 1989.
Jeter has two: 2010 and this year. Hard to believe.
Has anyone noticed that Jeter has been better at defense in his later years? If you look at his UZR 2002-2007 and compare it to his UZR 2008-2014, he is actually slightly better in the latter years, and these are years where he should be getting worse at defense. Isn’t that very odd to be better at defense ages 34-40 compared to your 28-34 aged years? I do remember reading that early they thought Jeter played far in, which limited his range. And really, if that is actually the case is it even fair to blame most of that terrible defense on Jeter? Shouldn’t a coach be in charge of where to place defenders? Just a thought…
I think his 2008-2010 stretch is very impressive. After that he got too old really, but he really improved at the tail end of his prime. To where he was as good as a scratch fielder at the toughest fielding position going against guys far younger who were playing mostly for fielding. At age 34-36 he was the 11th best ss by UZR per 150, ahead of Jose Reyes, Stephen Drew, Hanley Ramirez, Ryan Theriot, etc
Derek Jeter has his place in basebal history. There’s no questioning his impact on the game and he’s exactly the type of player the media and anti-PED fans drool over. From a pure baseball standpoint, his career has been nothing short of impressive. Will he be the first ever 100% Hall of Famer? That seems to be the quetion I hear a lot lately. The fact that there hasn’t been a 100% inductee yet speaks more about the voters than the players. My take on that is he probably should get 100% because I can’t see how you can be honest with yourself as a voter and not put him on your ballot. I really don’t know how these voters can get away with it. Everything else you do in life, you are held accountable for you performance. These voters should have to answer to somebody as to why they don’t vote for players who deserve the HoF.
“I can’t see how you can be honest with yourself as a voter and not put him on your ballot.”
There are a lot of players who have and have not yet gotten in about whom that could be said.
Totally agree. It shouldn’t even be an issue but unfortunately nobody has received 100% so it’s not going away. It’s a shame really looking back on the guys who didn’t get 100% that should of.
As a Yanks fan, I agree that no one has a reason to leave Jeter off the ballot.
I don’t think he should be the first 100%-er, though, if that makes sense. Way, way too many far better players didn’t get 100% of the ballot for Jeter to be “the one.”
Agreed. Better players before him and after him that didn’t or won’t get 100%. I guess what I was trying to say is that if a voter doesn’t vote for him or any other player that’s a no-brainer, then they are obviously lacking in baseball intelligence and should probably not even be voting for the HoF.
Mike Trout had better get 100% if he keeps this up.
I think that’s right, too.
Can this please be the last of the Jeter stuff until he’s up for the Hall of Fame ballot? I’m completely oversaturated with this stuff.
There are so many interesting players with futures who aren’t him.
They’ve had hundreds of articles on different players on Fangraphs all year. There’s been almost as much written on Jacob DeGrom as Jeter.
So he’s a better overall hitter than Adam Dunn and Ryan Howard? Whew boy, that’s stunning. Where does he rank compared to Russ Branyan?
You may not be aware of it, but they have pretty good career numbers.
He’s probably not aware of it.
He’s the most popular player in the biggest, wealthiest market. Rail against they system all you want – it’s not going to change. Without the system you wouldn’t get to watch games on TV and there wouldn’t be sites like this.
I’m pretty sure I would be able to watch games on TV without a team being in NYC, as well as I’m sure a baseball blog on the internet could also exist sans NYC.
The system’s already changed, thanks to MLB.tv I haven’t seen a Yankee game all season (with nary a highlight, since the choice exists to not watch ESPN highlights), and it’s pretty great that choice exists. If you want 24/7 Jeter love, you can get that and if you want to avoid 98%+ of it and still follow the sport, you can do that as well.
I don’t really care for Jeter. He’s always come across as kind of smarmy to me. But…
He was a great player. People seem to forget that one can be truly great and still be overrated (cf. Joe DiMaggio).
He was consistent and almost always in the lineup (until last year). He was never even thrown out of a game. Those things have value.
How many of those 89 players with more offensive runs above average than Jeter were not corner outfielders, first basemen or designated hitters?
Some sabermetricians have advocated stretching the defense, playing the best offensive player than can reasonably handle a defensive position. That’s what the Yankees did with Jeter, even if they thought he was a better defensive player than he actually was. And it worked. The Yankees won multiple World Series in an era when it is extremely hard to even get into multiple World Series. He had help, of course, but he was a major contributor.
Jeter also has had a knack for creating transcendent moments. “The Flip”. Hitting a home run for his 3000th hit. Having the game-winning hit in his final home game.
I’ve grown weary of the hype and extended farewell tour. I think Jeter should have been willing to move off shortstop when the Yankees signed ARod. I think his announcing his retirement before the season was a ploy to make it harder for the Yankees to bench him. But I shouldn’t let those negatives blind me to the fact that he was a great player for his career.
On what planet is Joe DiMaggio overrated? I think you can make an argument he was underrated. Career 4.8 K% with a .254 ISO? He averaged 6.4 WAR for his career and he’s Top 10 wOBA all time. You can argue DiMaggio’s hit streak was overrated but I don’t see how you can say his career was overrated. If DiMaggio doesn’t lose three of his prime years to the war, we might be talking about him as one of the greatest players ever.
All this about Joe D. and let’s add something else: with a 4.8 K%, he hit 361 career HRs – and did it as a RH hitter whose home park was 457′ to left center field and 460′ to straightaway center. That boggles the mind. Unsurprisingly his home run rate was significantly higher on the road (one every 16 at bats) than at home (one every 22.7 at bats). While Old Yankee Stadium was great for left handed sluggers, it was hard on RH sluggers. LF and CF were known as “Death Valley” because it was where fly balls went to die.
If you normalize his at bats to his road HR rate, it’s the equivalent of 426 HRs. And that doesn’t count the three seasons in the prime of his career (age 28-30) that he lost to WWII. Overrate? If anything, modern fans who are jaded by crazy HR totals during the steroid era underrate Joe D., who was really one of the top 20 or so HR hitters of all time (figuring that adding the war years and normalizing his HR rate to his career road rate brings his equivalent total to between 500-525 HRs and discounting a handful of known steroid users) while playing solid defense a premium defensive position.
Well said. I think a lot of fans forget about Joe D. 4.8 K% for a career? That’s mind boggling for a season let alone a career. In fact, he’s the only player in MLB history with at least 1,000 PAs to have an ISO over .200 and K% under 5%. Unbelievable.
It’s absolutely nuts.
He had 361 career HR, and 369 career Ks.
Heading into his final season, he had 349 career HR, to 333 career Ks.
DiMaggio’s strikeout totals and his hitting streak are remarkable, but they don’t have any inherent value. Mantle struck out 4.6 times more that DiMaggio, yet made outs at a lower rate than DiMaggio and hit into fewer double plays. Mantle was more valuable.
One can make a case for DiMaggio being a top twenty position player, if you give him credit for his lost wartime years and the disadvantage of his home park, but many people rate him much higher than that. As I said, it is possible to be great and still be overrated.
The thing is, a big part of why DiMaggio was so beloved was because of stuff like his contact/power numbers.
When people say he’s one of the greatest players of all time, they aren’t just talking about on-field performance. They’re talking about the way he achieved that performance.
He was an incredible contact hitter with massive power, good speed and good fielding in center field. He went all-out on every play, while simultaneously making the difficult look easy.
While other players may have been more talented, and more valuable, DiMaggio absolutely maxed out his potential as a baseball player. And he won nine rings.
People weren’t saying he was the “best” living baseball player. They were saying he was the “greatest.” The difference isn’t just semantic.
Honestly, I think Joe DiMaggio’s hit streak is the single most impressive accomplishment in the history of professional sports.
I mean, no one else has ever gotten within 10 of him. I don’t think anyone is ever going to break that record.
This one for starters. Any ranking that has him as a top three all-time center fielder, rather than 5th or 6th. Anywhere he is ranked higher than Mantle or Williams. Back when he was alive, being called “the greatest living baseball player” when there were at least four or five living players who were better.
The low strikeout totals are interesting, but have no particular value if he was making outs other ways. Mantle struck out more, but grounded into fewer double plays with 2000 more PAs. That has real value.
Bingo. A great, great player. Never the Greatest Living Player, definitely being Cobb, Speaker, Mays and Mantle in CF, arguably behind Griffey, Jr.
Who, exactly, would argue that DiMaggio was “behind” a man who was worth 6 wins less over 900 more career games, despite DiMaggio having missed 3 prime seasons to WWII?
I’m genuinely curious.
In fairness to Dave, he may be a little sleepy and forgot that he intended this post to be for Fox Sports.
I will grant that Jeter isn’t Honus Wagner. But ask yourself, if you were a General Manager with perfect foresight, if you wouldn’t be interested in filling a very difficult position with a durable, consistent player who performs at a high level for the next two decades. From 1996-2009 Jeter had 14 consecutive seasons of 3.0 BWar or more. There’s plenty of nits to pick when you are talking about Jeter, but a fair evaluation of him supports the premise that this was a fine player for a very long time.
Ok, I give up. Jeter is the best player and human being of all time. If he joined the NBA next year, he would score 40 ppg; if he joined the NHL, Gretzky’s records would all be shattered within five years; etc., etc. I can’t wait for the inevitable announcement that he has single-handedly cured AIDS, cancer, and made world hunger a thing of the past. Mind you, none of this anger is actually directed at Jeter, himself. I’m just wondering what all of these hacks are going to write about once he retires. I thought I could come to fangraphs to escape the 24/7 media fellatio of Jeter, but apparently, I was mistaken…
Better than Ryan Howard! Ama5ing!
Incidentally, Jeff Sullivan’s previous story in no way ‘debunked’ narratives about Jeter’s defense. Stating that “Everyone should remember that Jeter is a great defender because he’s one of the worst of the great defenders” is a bit of a bizarre argument. He’s a shortstop and he gets evaluated as a shortstop, saying ‘he’s great compared to a first baseman’ adds nothing.
Paul Molitor played in the field mid- and late-career more than people credit him for. You can look it up.
In his last 8 years, Molitor played 969 games at DH, 160 at 1st base, and no games at any other positions. I think people are talking about those years, and not ages 30-34
After the final out is recorded in Sunday’s Yankee game, I fully expect Jeter, like Elijah, to be swept up to heaven, in a fiery chariot, complete with The NY logo.
Jeter vs Roberto Alomar
Up the middle players with nearly identical slash lines/wOBA/wRC+/BsR. Alomar was slightly better in the field at a slightly easier position.
People are already talking about making an exception to the 5-year HoF rule for Jeter, while it took Alomar until his 2nd ballot to get elected. Sure personality plays a role in that, but as great as he was, is there anybody arguing that Roberto Alomar is an inner-circle all-time god among men?
Good for Jeter on a wonderful career, and he’s a no-doubt first-ballot guy, but all this hero-worship takes more away from his legacy of humility and putting the team first than it adds to it.
I forgot to add, his BRef Most Similar player is Biggio. Another great player who is still (somehow) waiting for his Hall of Fame call.
Biggio was a worse hitter and may have been worse defensively at much easier positions.
He’s a lot more similar to Molitor.
I was going for similar defensive positions to simplify the comparisons. And I’m not sure you can even say Biggio was a substantially worse hitter. The entire difference between them is 10 singles/year.
Click Me
I still think Alomar is the best comp, but Biggio had nearly identical career length/PA, so the counting stats are easier to compare.
10 singles per year over 18 years adds up to 80 offensive runs.
That’s a big difference.
But Lester … is 10 singles a year really the gap between a guy who who couldn’t get into the HoF vs a guy who many extol as the best shortstop to ever play the game? Over the course of their career the variance falls within the margin of error when you consider things like luck, supporting lineup, ballpark, competition, etc.
Biggio’s going to get into the Hall of Fame, but a 8 win difference is significant.
Also, no one thinks that Jeter is the best SS to ever play the game. He might be Top 5, even Top 3 if you don’t think pre-WS stats should be counted on the same level, but he’s nowhere near the best SS ever.
Biggio, however, is a lot closer to the 16th best 2B (Utley) than the 5th (Gehringer). They aren’t that close.
No serious-minded person is proposing to drop the 5-year rule for Jeter. And no, PTI/Around The Horn/First Take talking heads desperate for a controversial take on the topic by which to sell more underwear are not serious-minded people.
“[…] is there anybody arguing that Roberto Alomar is an inner-circle all-time god among men?”
I can think of a few up here in Canada that would absolutely have that conversation with you. You’re far more likely to find Robby Alomar hero-worship around here than Jeter-worship, especially with the key role Alomar played in the last two years in which the Blue Jays were really relevant.
In my mind, the two are basically identical players — based on personality, based on marketing impact, based on the numbers (albeit as sort of flip sides of the same coin with Alomar being more glove-first, and Jeter more bat-first), and especially based on the weird mix of localized and nationalized (over-)admiration.
IF! you believe in the 1st Ballot distinction – which all here who write regarding which not only disparage, but go on to disparage those fellow human beings who do so believe – but if you think it’s a valid distinction to make, not clear to me that Jeter deserves 1st Ballot entry. He’ll certainly get it, but as has been pointed out he’s quite comparable to a player – Alan Trammell – who 13 years after eligibility still isn’t in at all.
(excuse me while I prepare for the coming calumny)
…and that Disney movie was Mulan II.
I have the sinking feeling that I’m going to see a Dave Cameron article titled, ‘Derek Jeter, better defensive shortstop than Ozzie Smith, better human being than Ghandi’, coming in the next few days. Ok I’ll shut up now.
http://ofmi.org/gandhis-sexual-abuse-of-grandnieces/
D’oh! I was just pulling out a random name, but yes, bad choice on my part.
I wonder what the Gandhi gift basket consisted of.
There is so much false narrative attached to Derek Jeter and the Yankees. Cameron perpetuates this when he says Jeter divides the saber crowd from the traditional sportswriters. The fact is the traditional sports writers have been writing negative articles about Derek Jeter his entire career. The narrative has always been that Derek Jeter is overrated. Always. The only reason Dave Cameron and everyone believe Jeter is overrated is because that is the only thing you’ve read about him since the late nineties when the story from the mainstream media was that Jeter was only a star because he played in New York, and that he wasn’t in the class of Nomar, Arod, or even Tejada.
Jeter has never been a media darling in the sense that the majority of coverage is positive, however every story ever written about him pushes the myth that every other story ever written about him was positive.
Also, there is absolutely no evidence that being a Yankee helps players with the mainstream media. Derek Jeter never came close to winning an MVP, and several times lost out to lesser players on small market teams. Also, there are lots of ex-Yankees players who have never sniffed the Hall of Fame, despite the fact that they deserve to be there (WIllie Randolph, Graig Nettles, Thurman Munson). If Thurman Munson had played for the Twins, is there any doubt he would have been a first ballot hall of famer?
Munson might have made it if he hadn’t dies young, but he hs a pretty low fWAR total for a Hall candidate. Randolph shouldn’t be in unless Whitaker is in, but Whitaker should be in. You might be able to make a case for Randolph but he didn’t have many “great” years but a lot of good ones.
Nettles should probably be in.
Kirby Pucket had to leave the game at a very young age because of injury. He was a first ballot HOFer. …but of course he played for a media-darling small market team, and not the hated Yankees. fWAR is an absurd statistic to use since the defense component is largely just a random number for historical players such as Munson and Pucket, but take a look at both player’s fWAR.
I’ve been a Yankee fan since 1967, and Randolph, Nettles and Munson are all close misses, Munson not so close. So are Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, and Andy Pettitte.
One thing missing from the debates in this comment section is how other Major League players feel about Jeter. Last night @MLB tweeted out Jeter shoutouts from:
Bud Norris
Jason Kipnis
David Price
Mike Aviles
Bryce Harper
Collin Cowgill
Adam Jones
Matt Carpenter
Nick Swisher
Mike Trout
Justin Verlander
Torii Hunter
Jimmy Rollins
Andrew McCutchen
I am guessing they did not get every single one.
Jeter is clearly respected by more than just Yankees fan and the media.
Sure, part of it is respect. Even for someone like me who is not a Jeter fan, I can appreciate his contribution to baseball. But let’s not pretend that tweeting about Jeter is all about genuine love. It is like kissing the ring of the king. You almost HAVE to do it or people will ask you why you haven’t. It’s expected that you should bow down in reverence to Jeter.
I don’t quite get the hate for Jeter having a farewell tour, even as a Red Sox fan. While it might be a bit of a spectacle, I mean… that’s the Yankees. They do spectacle. They are spectacle. That’s their DNA. When they win, it’s big news. When they suck, it’s big news too!
At least as much as Jeter’s play on the field, his ability to handle a press conference and a spotlight has to be consider a key factor of why he meant so much to the Yankees. A guy like that helps you distract the media from a scuffling and grumpy A-Rod, a rusty Randy Johnson, and a whole host of other guys who would straight up crack if subjected to that kind of unfiltered limelight. So, given that, doesn’t it make sense that he’d get a lot of attention in his retirement season? He spent his whole career attracting that attention, and it is a very useful clubhouse skill.
PS, not to throw any stones out of glass houses, but the Yankees did kind of suck this year. However, Jeter did not suck. At least not at baseball… 🙂
I think its ridiculous to not think Jeter isn’t great just because he wasn’t Albert Pujols or the like. However his 1999 year was definitely transcendant. 3rd best war in baseball and having an OFF of 50 plus. Thats pretty darn good. We aren’t arguing if he’s better than Arod. Part of being SS is sticking there and not dissappearing after age 30 which often happens to SS. He’s not Ruth or Mantle but who is. None of those guys played SS. While the farewell tour is tiresome nobody really is arguing he’s the greatest ever but he’s a great player and he has to be considered one of the best players of his error when all is said and done.
I agree with all of this, except the “error”.
What got to me was that necklace he wore the last month. If A-Rod or Big Papi or Rickey Henderson had that thing on anytime during their career, not to mention their victory lap, the press would have crushed him for it, but somehow, this guy is the most humble guy on earth.
Imagine Michael Jordan sinking the game winner in ’98 with a string of rubies flying in the air with him. It would look ridiculous.
Imagine Ted Williams with that thing on. Or Aaron. Or Greg Maddux. Or Ripken. Or Jimmy Rollins. I don’t mind the accolades about his hitting, because he could hit ( he’s the third best active hitter on his team ) , but the humility worship is a little much.
For more than half his career he had an OPS+ of 111. His peak years from 98-03 he had a 128 OPS+. He was a good hitter, not a great hitter, although he was a great hitter for a SS. As a SS, he was a poor fielder.
Slam dunk HOF’er because of the position he played, the rings, and longevity and counting stats. He was never the best player on his own team, and was not even the top SS in the game at his peak.
The hype is incredible, and if he played for the White Sox we would hardly hear about his exit like Konerko
Or perhaps the reason you don’t hear much about Konerko’s exit is because he is not an inner circle HOFer and one of the top five ever to play his position.
Dude, don’t bother. He’s just a Red Sox homer.
Jeter deserves to be in the hall of fame. But, I think Jeter is roughly as good as Trammel is fair. But, Trammel deserves to be in the hall of fame as well!
I have always regarded Jeter as an arrogant jerk, so I do not get that he is a great guy comparison, but I met him in person when he was roughly 28 years old and he was a jerk! I may have caught him on an off day, but still he was a Jerk! I wont bother to say why because he deserves some love right now from baseball fans.
Eh you sound like the type who would be incredibly annoying in person. I don’t blame him if he lost his cool.
I just cried watching that video.