Did the Warthen Slider Drag the Mets Down?

The Mets’ quick slide from a National League championship in 2015 to 90 losses this season had to claim a victim. Manager Terry Collins appears to be one of them: according to reports, he’s unlikely to return next year. Now, pitching coach Dan Warthen is a candidate to join him on the chopping block in New York.

It makes sense to some degree. The Mets’ fate over the past few years has been tied closely to the quality of the pitching staff. Once a clear strength of the club, that staff represented a weakness for this year’s team. But much of that weakness was a product of injury, and injuries hit every team at a seemingly random pace. Is Warthen a scapegoat here, or is he somehow directly responsible for the current situation?

Two years ago, Warthen’s brand of slider appeared to be a revelation. Somewhere between a cutter and true slider, the hard breaking ball seemed responsible for the breakouts of multiple pitchers: Jacob deGrom, Jeurys Familia, Matt Harvey, Steven Matz, Jenrry Mejia, Hansel Robles, and (of course) Noah Syndergaard.

The Mets consistently led the league in slider velocity and may have even inspired other teams to try out the harder version of the pitch.

While velocity is linked to slider whiffs, the relationship isn’t as strong as you’d think. And though the Mets have routinely produced the league’s hardest sliders, they may not have had the best ones.

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There are a couple of ways to evaluate the effectiveness of a pitch. To begin, here’s a three-year look at slider whiff rates across the league, grouped by team:

As you can see, the Mets actually placed among the bottom third of all teams by this measure. That’s not definitively bad, but it’s not encouraging, either.

But whiffs aren’t the only measure of success for a single offering. What if we combine whiffs with ground balls, to account for the two best outcomes over which a pitcher has control? I’ve done that below, grading all sliders on a scale of 20-80, with 50 representing the major-league average. Since a small velocity differential between the slider and fastball was linked to ground-ball rate in the study linked here, maybe it’s not surprising the pitch does a little better here. Still, it’s not as dominant as it might seem when Noah Syndergaard is throwing it at 94 mph.

The pitch has confounded hitters to some extent, but maybe not as much as we thought it might. And this doesn’t even account for another possible effect of the pitch: injury. Look back at that list of pitchers at the top; it’s hard to find one who hasn’t spent significant time on the disabled list.

Of course, every pitcher seems to need a blow. An executive once told me off the record that the most surprising thing he learned from working in baseball is that “every pitcher is injured at all times. It’s just how much they can handle.” Especially now with the 10-day DL, it seems folly to draw any straight lines between a few pitcher injuries and a pitch they share in common. They also all threw hard, for example, and that’s been shown to be the biggest single stressor.

About that finding, though. Studies using a Motus sleeve to measure stress by pitch type reveal that fastballs tax the arm more than all other offerings. But fastballs are thrown harder than all those other offerings, too. Here’s what stress by pitch type looks like if you normalize for velocity, as Kyle Boddy at Driveline Baseball did:

Breaking balls emerge as the most stressful pitches per mph by this methodology. Now the alarm bells are going off. The Warthen Slider is the hardest slider in baseball by mph. You’re not throwing the curveball 90-plus mph, but there are plenty of Mets throwing sliders 90-plus mph. The Warthen Slider might be the most stressful pitch in baseball.

Of course, there are caveats, which Boddy is careful to note. We don’t know how the stress is distributed differently in each pitch type. We don’t know how this stress-per-mph relationship works within a pitcher. At Saber Seminar, for example, Glenn Fleisig from the American Sports Medicine Institute demonstrated that, yes, more velocity is generally more stressful, but it also matters how close to a pitcher’s personal max those fastballs are thrown. Syndergaard throwing his fastball at 96, when he can throw it at 100, is less stressful than deGrom throwing his fastball at 96. Perhaps sliders work the same way.

The uncertainty that remains in the relationship between pitch type and injury should hold us back from blaming Warthen for what occurred the last couple years under his watch. The coach himself brushed aside concerns when I asked him: “It’s easy on the arm when done correctly, it’s not one of those pitches that you try to make break,” he said.

What we can do is give him some credit for all the pitchers who broke out under his watch, especially since so many of them told Kristie Ackert at the New York Daily News they enjoy working with the coach, which echoes what David Laurila and I heard — without prompting — when we asked the pitchers themselves about their adjustments.

So take your pick. We’re still feeling around in the dark on injuries. Maybe Dan Warthen’s slider is risky. At the same time, we can see high-end production from so many of these pitchers pretty plainly — and they’re pointing directly to the coach. Maybe they should give him another year to rehabilitate all those arms he helped develop.





With a phone full of pictures of pitchers' fingers, strange beers, and his two toddler sons, Eno Sarris can be found at the ballpark or a brewery most days. Read him here, writing about the A's or Giants at The Athletic, or about beer at October. Follow him on Twitter @enosarris if you can handle the sandwiches and inanity.

24 Comments
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mikejuntMember
8 years ago

I’m not crazy in that there’s no LAD on the sliders 2015-2017 chart, right?

Rob MooreMember since 2019
8 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

I was about to comment the same thing.

Reflect
8 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

The Dodgers literally are in a league of their own.

mikejuntMember
8 years ago
Reply to  Eno Sarris

Outside of entertaining songs, one could argue one Seattle is already too many.

wfarley
8 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

Might’ve been an edit, but on the whiff rate graph they’re just above the Mets, and they’re last on the grade graph.

Edit: definitely an edit (thanks to eno sarris)

Turd Furgeson
8 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

even brandon morrow made it through the season (so far).

southie
8 years ago

Does Matt Harvey just lack the bite on his breaking stuff? I get his velocity is diminished but he still throws quite hard. Is it too late to reinvent himself? Use a different arm slot. Try the sinker route more, change pitch mix more drastically. Is he too stubborn or delusional to try something different because he doesn’t appear capable of pitching effectively as his “old” self. It’s an old cliche but the whole definition of insanity thing really rings true with him. Not as if he’s throwing 82 like Steve Avery was in his comeback stage.

LHPSU
8 years ago
Reply to  southie

Matt Harvey’s FB% is a career low 53.3 this year, down from his 58% career average. His SL% is a career high 23.1, up from his 17.6% career average. What he’s doing is quite drastic already, and one could argue that it might be the change that’s costing him.

Throwing shit against the wall doesn’t mean it will necessarily stick.

OddBall Herrera
8 years ago

Where did these same Mets rank in fastball whiff rate?

Seems like one of the benefits of a hard slider isn’t just ground balls/strikeouts on the slider itself, but strikeouts on the pitch it’s trying to mimic as well.

bunslow
8 years ago

Totally random, pointless and waste of time complaint: on the graphs, there’s a CHW and a CHN? Wtf? Where’s the consistency?

by jiminy
8 years ago

You’re right to be cautious in drawing conclusions without more data, but I would be very surprised to find out that throwing a lot of mid-90s sliders was NOT a significant injury risk.

If speed is a risk, and breaking balls are a risk, you’d expect a high-speed breaking ball to be a double risk, if not an exponentially greater one.

In fact I thought it was conventional wisdom that sliders were the riskiest pitch, going back to Ron Guidry’s sudden dominance and rapid flame-out. How could they not be?

Jetsy Extrano
8 years ago
Reply to  by jiminy

Well, they get less “breakish” as they get faster. Different points along the slider – cutter – fastball spectrum.

The Warthen slider is nearly a cutter, are cutters terrible on the arm?

NathanielMember since 2016
8 years ago

What’s up with Oakland’s sliders? By whiffs alone they’re last by a big margin. But you add in grounders and they’re top-3! Huh?

NicklePickersMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Nathaniel

Noticed a similar swap with Baltimore…

by jiminy
8 years ago

Does anyone understand Werther’s comment, “It’s easy on the arm when done correctly, it’s not one of those pitches that you try to make break”? I thought that was the definition of a slider. He obviously knows a lot more than me; I just don’t understand.

ice_hawk10
8 years ago
Reply to  by jiminy

sounds like the way he attempts to teach it is by not trying to change arm angle/release point/wrist action to get break on the pitch. you just grip it differently and throw it like a fastball.

he could still be quite wrong, because i’d guess that even something like changing the grip will change the arm/wrist action on the pitch even in absence of the thrower “trying” to do anything.

Dooduh
8 years ago

Seems like a ‘what have you done for me lately’ critique.

guerrillaMember since 2016
8 years ago

It seems to me the takeaway is that we don’t have a good idea of what causes pitching injuries, and least as far as pitch type/pitch selection goes. It also seems that a team’s strength/conditioning and rehab practices are just as important of a factor in keeping players (pitchers and position players) on the field. So before the Mets fire Warthen, they really need to look at firing Ray Ramirez and his staff.

belowreplacementaccountname
8 years ago

I think the first graph might be a lot more informative by including league average fastball velocity by year over this time. I know this probably messes with the y-axis a bit, but it would go a long way towards establishing that the league is trying out the Warthen slider versus just the league has started throwing harder.

Turd Furgeson
8 years ago

the entire mets training & med staff should be replaced. theyre incompetent.

boogshine
8 years ago

I follow the Mets. I don’t see how pitcher injuries can be measured without position player injuries as compared to the league. The whole team did DL time this year and the internet trolls are all calling for training staff turnover.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
8 years ago

The article asks, and appears to answer, the question of stress in relation to effort. Is a pitcher who is maxing out at 90 while giving 100% effort placing greater stress on his arm than the guy who has 100 mph in his arm but is throwing 95? Is there a definitive study anywhere or is this just an educated guess from, admittedly, qualified people. The only thing that is without question is that the arms keep falling off with absolutely no apparent relationship to anything, be it velocity, use of the slider or the splitter or absolutely anything else even remotely related to pitching.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
8 years ago

There is a guy named chris o leary who claims that the mets teach risky throwing mechanics which might contribute to all the injuries (that inverted w thing among other stuff).

Not sure if there is something to it but with that number of injuries it maybe needs to be considered.