Early-Season Pitch-Modeling Standouts

Jayne Kamin-Oncea-USA TODAY Sports

This offseason, FanGraphs got some new stuff. More precisely, we got some new ways of measuring stuff, and command, and pitching overall, via pitch-level modeling. You can read about PitchingBot here and Stuff+ here. They’re really cool! Pitch modeling is a wonderful tool to both verify the eye test – that nasty-looking slider you saw, it’s actually nasty – and to find new pitchers to keep an eye on. Sure, strikeout rate and ERA and FIP can do that too, but stuff is a purer signal, because it’s entirely in a pitcher’s control. There’s no question of whether a hitter spoiled a great pitch, or whether that ball should have been a home run. There’s only the pitch, with its movement and velocity and release point.

Eno Sarris, the proprietor of Stuff+, has written about how quickly that model stabilizes, but for our purposes, let’s just say this: these pitch modeling tools give a great early look at which pitchers are working with the best tools early in the year. That doesn’t mean that they’ll all be great – they might not wield the tools in the correct order, or they might struggle with command, or they might wear down as the season goes on – but it does mean that they’re starting with an advantage.

I’d caution you against using these with excessive granularity this early in the season. If a pitcher’s Stuff+ has declined from 119 to 116, or if your team’s swingman has vaulted two points above the fifth starter, there’s probably not much signal in that. Instead, I’m going to paint with a very broad brush. I’m going to look at three groups of two today: two pitchers who both models agree have great stuff, two pitchers who both models are down on, and two where the systems disagree.

Let’s start with the good stuff.

Shohei Ohtani, Los Angeles Angels

PitchingBot Stuff: 74, 1st among starters
Stuff+: 152, 1st among starters

Oh, sure, that seems fair. We all already knew that Ohtani was great, but c’mon, he has the best stuff of any starter in baseball now? It’s true, though: he just keeps adding weapons, and the sweeping slider he throws might be the best in baseball. Just ask teammate Mike Trout, who waved ineffectually at one to end the World Baseball Classic. Or ask the A’s, who saw 45 of them in his Opening Day start.

As always, Ohtani’s splitter is magnificent. It’s been his best secondary pitch for years, and both models have it on par with various splitter specialists at the very top of the charts. This year, Ohtani has done one better, though, by improving his already-excellent fastball. He’s throwing it harder and yet getting more vertical movement. Oh yeah, he commands it too. The result is a pitch that’s gone from solid to overwhelming. Pity Ramón Laureano, who drew Ohtani’s maximum-effort ire, painted low and away with runners in scoring position:

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Ohtani already had dominant stuff. He was already one of the best pitchers in baseball. Now he might be better than he was last year – when he finished fourth in Cy Young voting and hit 34 homers with a 142 wRC+. What can you do other than stare at his statistics in awe, mouth agape?

Dustin May, Los Angeles Dodgers

PitchingBot Stuff: 57, 16th among starters
Stuff+: 118, 15th among starters

May looked like the next great Dodgers starter at the beginning of 2021, but he suffered a UCL tear only five starts into the season. He barely pitched last year between rehab and a new back injury. I won’t fault you for taking a wait-and-see approach with him. That said, he looked electric in his first start of the year and both pitching models agree with the eye test.

The biggest change in May’s game is that he’s throwing a four-seamer more frequently than a sinker these days. He threw 36 four-seamers and only 18 sinkers in his first start, a big change for a guy who came into the big leagues as a sinker-only pitcher. Both of the models love both of the fastballs, which is a very fun sentence to write. His four-seamer has the requisite ride to make it hard to get a bat on, while his sinker is still a bowling ball with tremendous horizontal movement. It’s worth keeping an eye on his release points – he consistently releases the four-seamer three inches or so higher up than the sinker, which hitters might figure that out eventually – but for now, an upper-90s mix of two good fastballs is a great building block.

But wait – there’s more. May’s breaking ball, which is either a curve or a slider depending on who you ask, looks downright beastly. He throws it 85 mph on average, but with the kind of movement that used to get people accused of witchcraft. Poor Christian Walker never stood a chance on this one:

As a complement to that fastball/breaking ball mix, May throws a cutter that works mainly to keep lefties honest. It’s not the star of the show – it’s very clearly his fourth-best pitch – but the two pitch-level models agree that it’s above average as well. That’s a ton of good pitches, if you’re keeping track at home. If May stays healthy and pitches like this all season, the Dodgers will have an even better rotation than I expected.

Now let’s look at two pitchers who fare less well by the models.

Josiah Gray, Washington Nationals

PitchingBot Stuff: 31, 149th (out of 149) among starters
Stuff+: 71, 146th among starters

I’m not gonna mince words: Gray’s first start of the season was horrendous. If you think a 9.00 ERA is bad, you’re going to be horrified by a 10.63 FIP and three home runs allowed. It’s the kind of start that plagued Gray all too often last year, when he allowed 38 homers to “lead” baseball. One way to give up a lot of homers? Don’t have good stuff. Our two models seem to think that’s the case here.

Last year, Gray led with his fastball and complemented it with sliders and curveballs. This season, he’s trying out a new sinker and cutter, both at the expense of four-seamers, which means his two most frequently thrown pitches are the curve and the slider. That strategy has worked for a lot of pitchers, but there’s just one problem here: Gray’s two breaking balls aren’t very good. Whoops.

To me, the slider is the bigger offender of the two. It’s arrow-straight, the kind of gyroscopic slider that works when thrown in the low 90s to complement a big four-seam fastball. Gray throws it in the mid-80s, though, and throws it with backspin, to where instead of diving off the table, it hangs up enticingly. That’s a worst-case scenario because when he misses location, the pitch is static horizontally and fails to drop below the zone. That’s a great way to surrender a home run. Like, say, on an 0-2 pitch:

Gray’s curveball isn’t quite as offensive, though it’s still far too straight for my liking. The good news is, he throws it only three ticks slower than his slider but gets an additional 13 inches of downward movement on it, which means it’s far less homer-prone. But his cutter, which was responsible for the other two home runs, needs an overhaul too. Cutters are at their best when they have a bit of glove-side break, or maybe no horizontal movement whatsoever. Gray’s bends ever so slightly arm side, like a sinker that doesn’t sink or tail, and that’s a great way to end up on someone else’s highlight reel.

You might think I mentioned all these bad breaking pitches because Gray’s fastballs are good, but that’s not even the case. His four-seamer was already marginal last year and it looks meaningfully worse this year; he’s lost three inches of vertical movement. He also can’t command it; he threw 14 of them, 10 of which were balls. Let’s call it like it is: Gray doesn’t look like a major league pitcher right now.

Noah Syndergaard, Los Angeles Dodgers

PitchingBot Stuff: 37, 137th among starters
Stuff+: 77, 141st among starters

Lest you think the Dodgers are all stuff success stories, Syndergaard’s pitch mix didn’t look so hot despite an excellent first outing against the Diamondbacks. His velocity is down yet again, to 92.9 mph on average, a far cry from the days when he cosplayed as Thor, the god of thunder. His sinker, which he used far more frequently than his four-seamer, is cookie-cutter, with decent horizontal movement, decent sink, and decent velocity. Both pitching models think it’s slightly below average as a result, because throwing a pitch with no standout characteristics whatsoever isn’t a great idea against professional hitters.

That standout characteristic used to be Syndergaard’s velocity and four-seam rise, but those days look to be over. That also takes some of the starch out of his breaking ball, a 90 mph cutter/slider thing that looks excellent off of an unhittable fastball but less imposing these days. He’s getting a ton of ride on it, similar to the issue Gray has with his slider, though Syndergaard’s is at least thrown faster, giving hitters less time to salivate before they start swinging.

One big caveat here, though: Syndergaard located extremely well, which cures a lot of ills. I’m less well-versed in how the pitch-level models handle location, but Syndergaard gets a 67 command grade from PitchingBot and a 116 Location+ score, both of which are comfortably above average. It’s okay to throw subpar stuff if you’re putting it in the right places. Maybe that’s Syndergaard’s new plan. I’ll be watching with great interest, because it’s not every day you see someone take the career arc he’s followed, and I think it would be very cool if he succeeded after losing his Asgardian powers.

Finally, let’s indulge in a little pitch modeling debate.

Kodai Senga, New York Mets

PitchingBot Stuff: 58, 15th among starters
Stuff+: 98, 69th among starters

This comes down to what you think of Senga’s ghost fork, the splitter/forkball/changeup thing that garnered nine of his 10 swinging strikes in his opening start. It absolutely befuddled the Marlins, and Senga knew it: eight of those nine swinging strikes resulted in strikeouts because he waited for two-strike counts and then pulled the string on them. In my eyes, it’s his standout pitch.

Just don’t tell the pitching models that. PitchingBot simply doesn’t give the pitch a score, because Statcast lists it as a forkball and there aren’t exactly many comparisons for that. Stuff+ gives it a 76, where 100 is average, and uh, what? It must be a difficult pitch to model, but I don’t really love either system’s output here. I’m going to need to see more ghost forks and more starts to develop a better idea of what I think about it. For now, I’m considering it his best out pitch by a mile.

One thing the models agree on: the rest of Senga’s pitches are solid. His fastball plays well, combining velocity with solid shape. I’m not sure it would work that well if it weren’t consistently hitting 96-97 mph, but at that speed, it looks quite good to me and to the models. He throws an excellent sweeper, too, with a ton of horizontal break and a bit of drop. It’s slow enough compared to the rest of his pitches that hitters have a bit of time to adjust, but it moves enough that their adjustments often aren’t enough.

Senga also throws a cutter that PitchingBot thinks is slightly above average and Stuff+ thinks is slightly below average, but the key thing to look for here is the ghost fork. What you think about that pitch has a lot to say about what you think about Senga’s overall stuff. I don’t trust either model here, at least yet; I’d say go with your gut.

Aaron Civale, Cleveland Guardians

PitchingBot Stuff: 39, 128th among starters
Stuff+: 116, 18th among starters

Now here is a disagreement. PitchingBot thinks Civale has almost no stuff to speak of. Stuff+ thinks that he’s one of the nastiest starters in the game. What in the world is going on here? In a word, it’s everything. The two systems disagree across the board on how effective Civale’s raw pitch metrics are.

Let’s start with his two fastballs. They’re not going to grade out incredibly well by either measure, sitting in the low 90s without extreme movement, but PitchingBot hates them. It gives them grades of 26 and 28 on the 20-80 scouting scale. Stuff+ is more sanguine; it checks in at 76 and 101 on a plus-stats scale. That’s not a huge deal, because Civale mostly relies on a cutter, but it explains some of the disagreement.

Both models like Civale’s cutter just fine, though PitchingBot thinks it’s slightly below average while Stuff+ thinks it’s slightly above average. The biggest disagreement of the whole bunch is in his curveball, which everyone agrees is good. The question is how good. PitchingBot thinks it’s a 60, comfortably above average, but Stuff+ happens to think it’s the second-best curveball in baseball, behind only Taijuan Walker’s. I can see it; it’s a truly fearsome hook. It gets both more drop and more horizontal movement than average, and it’s not even that slow for a pitch with that much movement. Here, watch Tommy La Stella chase ghosts:

On the other hand, that’s the only swinging strike that Civale garnered out of 20 curves, and he also only landed one for a called strike. You might be tempted to write the pitch off given that. But this is one great strength of pitching models: they look at the raw building blocks rather than what hitters did against the pitch on a single day. Civale’s curveball looks mostly the same as it did last year, when it had a 19.7% swinging strike rate. It looks mostly the same as it did in 2021, when it had a 14.8% swinging strike rate, and in 2020, when it had a 19.7% swinging strike rate. The Mariners did a great job against it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a good pitch. It’s reasonable to expect good season-long numbers given that we have a mountain of data suggesting that this pitch shape works for him.

The truth on Civale is probably somewhere between the two models. I’m sympathetic to them here; pitchers who throw cutters as their primary pitch present problems given that differential from primary pitch is an important input. I’ll direct your attention to Graham Ashcraft, who is fourth in Stuff+ and 27th according to PitchingBot’s Stuff grades, as a similar case. Modeling baseball pitches isn’t easy. That doesn’t mean that it’s not useful, though, and I hope this was a helpful look at the way our leaderboards work.





Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.

52 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
mike sixelMember since 2016
3 years ago

Really interesting stuff! thanks,

DH
3 years ago
Reply to  mike sixel

Really interesting stuff+ even!

ShauncoreMember since 2019
3 years ago

Is the pitch modeling data updated daily?

David AppelmanFanGraphs Staff
3 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

Yes!

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago

PitchingBot simply doesn’t give the pitch a score, because Statcast lists it as a forkball and there aren’t exactly many comparisons for that.

With the caveat that I definitely do not understand how Statcast classifies pitches, this seems weird and non-optimal (just like the stadium scoreboard in Miami showing a big UNKNOWN when he throws the pitch, which it did). Can you not just call it a split changeup instead of a “ghost forkball” and see what the models think then?

si.or.noMember since 2017
3 years ago

If the models can’t classify it, then it means it’s different enough in shape (or something) where there’s nothing comparable in the system.

So forcing a comparison with other pitches that are not, by definition, comparable, won’t do a lot.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago
Reply to  si.or.no

OK, but the problem is exactly what is “by definition, comparable” and what isn’t (or equivalently, how these systems actually classify pitches), so this is really just begging the question. Senga grips and throws the ball in a manner that appears (to me, and Ron Darling for whatever that’s worth) close to identical to the pitch called the “split change,” but the ball-tracking system still sees it as different enough, based on spin/path/shape/whatever, that it is getting confused. What I am asking is, what’s wrong with just classifying it manually based on what we know about the grip and delivery, at least until Statcast figures it out? The name of the pitch isn’t magic, and this isn’t the only time in history that a guy achieved a better result with a given pitch than anyone else while starting with the same basic grip and mechanics. Statcast obviously knows what an outlier, say, curveball (in terms of movement/spin/whatever) looks like, so why can’t we tell it that this is basically an outlier split change?

si.or.noMember since 2017
3 years ago

> Statcast obviously knows what an outlier, say, curveball (in terms of movement/spin/whatever) looks like

Huh? I mean, either statcast classifies something as a curveball, or it doesn’t. A pitch either fits within a grouping or it doesn’t. There is no “outlier” category.

> The name of the pitch isn’t magic, and this isn’t the only time in history that a guy achieved a better result with a given pitch than anyone else while starting with the same basic grip and mechanics

  1. SSS alert. I mean, we know the pitch is different, but I would really hold off on describing it as a better result until he throws more than 10 of them.
  2. We definitely do not know that the mechanics are basically the same. Is the release the same? Is he pronating some amount? I for sure don’t know.

But, bottom line, the whole idea of stuff+/pitch-modeling is that we can evaluate a pitch shape based on interpolating from the historical record of pitch data, and understanding success/failure with those pitches. If the model says “we are unable to compare this pitch to any other pitches”, shouting “No! You must compare this!” won’t do much :shrug:

It will take an adjustment of the model, and likely much more than a forced classification.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago
Reply to  si.or.no

A pitch either fits within a grouping or it doesn’t.

Do you actually not see how this is just continuing to beg the question, or do you not care? You are just asserting over and over without evidence that the black box of pitch classification is totally reliable. If there is a reason to think so, I would be happy to hear it, but I am not just going to take it on faith because you keep pretending that “the model says so” is a reason.

si.or.noMember since 2017
3 years ago

I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about, or what question is being begged. Getting begged?

I’m not asserting that anything is totally reliable. I’m not asserting that the pitch isn’t a splitter. And I don’t know why you think that. I’m just asserting that the model doesn’t classify it as a splitter. Which is _inarguable_ because that’s the reason we’re having this conversation in the first place. And that means that something must be different about the pitch?

I don’t know how to explain that any simpler.

Your original post simply said “just call it a split changeup and see what the models think then”. I guess maybe you think the classification and the value determination are two distinct models?

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago
Reply to  si.or.no

maybe you think the classification and the value determination are two distinct models

Yes, this was apparently the point you were missing because “the model” can refer to too many things. As the part of the article that I quoted in the first comment that you responded to specifically says, Statcast is classifying the pitches using its own black-box method for doing so, and the PitchingBot/Stuff+ models are just using that classification, which means they are currently unable to do much with the forkball. Even if you go look at Senga’s Savant page, it currently doesn’t show many of the metrics for the forkball. I have now done some googling to try to learn how this works (eg there’s a very interesting SABR paper on using clustering to determine pitch subtypes) and it looks like literally no one (public) actually knows how Statcast classifies pitches, but someone can inform me if I’m wrong about that.

mikejuntMember
3 years ago

This is just a re-hash of what is kind of a long running parallel debate over the last 10 years of whether what you call a pitch is determined by what the pitcher is trying to throw or by what the pitch does after it’s thrown

Until 2010 or so we always used the former, but technology increasingly does the latter, and sometimes that leaves gaps where it lacks comparison points. They have created whole new classifications not used previously (like “sweeper”) to help improve this accuracy

dukewinslowMember since 2020
3 years ago

Just give me the distance to the n nearest neighbors

GoodEnoughForMeMember since 2018
3 years ago

This is a really cool tool and article and I hope to see check ins on it as the season progresses.

Ryan DCMember since 2016
3 years ago

Would love to see this as a regular or semi-regular feature

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

“Ghost fork” sounds creepy and absurd.

docgooden85Member since 2018
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It’s a splitter with unusual movement. You can call it a wet blanket if you prefer.

AzizalMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

“sadtrombone” sounds creepier and absurd-er.

DLHughey
3 years ago

Is “Stuff+” a reliable and valid metric? I know Eno has been promoting it forever now (and frankly, reducing the discourse around pitching to one stat that to my knowledge isn’t public). Are the calculations public now, or has it at least had some independent analysis done on it? It feels like we’re back in the early 2010s where saber nerds reduced every argument to WAR because it was novel and was telling a story that hadn’t been widely accepted yet, despite the fact that using WAR as a blunt tool like that isn’t advisable.

Darren
3 years ago
Reply to  DLHughey

TomTango looked at Stuff+ in this post and found value in it: http://tangotiger.com/index.php/site/comments/predictiveness-of-the-tools-of-pitching

Eno also described the components of Stuff+ on TheAthletic a while back which shows what percentage each component of the pitch is used for Stuff+ (not sure if this is still up-to-date or not): https://theathletic.com/2641834/2021/06/11/the-pitcher-report-what-exactly-is-stuff-featuring-rich-hill-sam-long-and-more/

DLHughey
3 years ago
Reply to  Darren

Tango’s analysis is 1) interesting for a brief post, but 2) absolutely not a validity measure. His quick work is comparing stuff+ to ERA predictors. Stuff+ looks at the physical characteristics of pitches to essentially define “nastiness” via deviation from the norm. So is this an ERA predictor or is this a “nastiness” metric? Or is this pitch/arsenal metric basically being used to replace the mere concept of ERA/FIP and just saying “this guy’s pitches move, thus he’s great.” Value in the metric is different than it having statistical validity. Grabbing a bunch of positive pitch characteristics/variables and combining them into a metric doesn’t mean the metric itself is actually measuring what its name claims to measure. Kind of like how “slugging” isn’t a great metric of power because it includes singles.

tyke
3 years ago
Reply to  DLHughey

i personally see it is some combination of the a “nastiness” metric and a predictive feature. if the stuff+ is good, the results should be good. it could help identify pitchers that are performing better than their stats indicate, or breakout candidates. i don’t see it at all as a measure of value or a stat that anyone should, say, base an award on.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  tyke

I think this is the right answer–it’s there to help you see who has the raw building blocks to succeed rather than actual successes.

DLHughey
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

That might be what it’s being used as, I’m just not sold on it being what Eno claims it is without a larger community discussion/evaluation. A hodgepodge of positive metrics doesn’t make an aggregate metric accurate. It can be an indicator of general good things, but what use is it beyond a binary good/bad? Eno has been pushing this so hard, and it’s frankly been unappealing. I dropped my Athletic sub in part because of how almost every sabermetric take of his for pitchers was getting reduced to Stuff+.

And watching him argue with Brandon McCarthy on twitter and using Stuff+ to tell him why he and the orioles were wrong about Grayson was an absolute cringe fest.

AzizalMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  DLHughey

I am bullish on Stuff+ and on Eno in general, he’s crazy smart. But as a listener to his podcast, he gets a bit over the top with his confidence in it, even though he admits it has flaws. It’s still a new model, as good as it is. That means there are going to be hiccups and things that need ironing out.

Last edited 3 years ago by Azizal
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

Let’s say Ohtani makes 25-30 starts with this level of stuff and gets at least 600 PAs. 1) Does he win the Cy Young? 2) Is there any way he wins the Cy Young but loses the MVP? 3) How big of a contract does he get?

I’m going with winning Cy Young, winning MVP, and $450M. It would be interesting to think of a scenario where he would win the CY but not the MVP, but whatever that level would be would need to be lower than last year’s output.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think the only thing potentially holding back Ohtani from a truly ridiculous contract is injury potential.

But my god….this guy is great. He’s at the “if he performs at this level for like five years, I’d put him in the Hall” level.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

He’s been worth 23.5 fWAR already and was worth almost 9 wins last year, so I’m not even sure he would need 5 years. Four more years of this would make him the best player in MLB for 4 years out of a 5 year stretch and give him 59 career war. Considering how he’s doing it, that would probably put him in the HoF before considering what he did in Japan (which voters don’t have to consider, but some do and so do I). At that point, he would just have to play enough seasons to be eligible.

MichaelMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

i’d be surprised if he doesn’t get $500m. I think he’s going to get a number that will be astonishing. There’s just so much production, so much marketability

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael

I think he could be the biggest baseball star of the last 50 years. What he’s doing is unreal.

MichaelMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Definitely. And a truly international superstar

kswissreject
3 years ago

I wonder if May’s use of 4S vs sinker in his first start was due to shift ban. Just a thought.

deuce26
3 years ago
Reply to  kswissreject

I think he’s also looking for more swing and miss. The 4 seam up in the zone can provide that.

docgooden85Member since 2018
3 years ago

I love these stuff metrics but as a math dude I don’t like anyone using + (an operator) with no object (operand). Every time I see “Stuff+” my immediate instinct is a humorless dad joke. Plus what? I don’t like the other ones either (OPS+, ERA+, AppleTV+). OPS is already a crime against math actually.

Seriously though, plus what?

docgooden85Member since 2018
3 years ago
Reply to  docgooden85

The grammar version of this is “I can’t even”. Can’t even what? Objects are in short supply.

Chris Reitsma
3 years ago
Reply to  docgooden85

It’sGiving+

docgooden85Member since 2018
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Reitsma

Giving PLUS noun-verb contraction MINUS a space=angry DocG
(so angry I can’t even cope – see? a verb)

Last edited 3 years ago by docgooden85
docgooden85Member since 2018
3 years ago
Reply to  docgooden85

Another better example from Super Troopers:

“Littering and?”

There is a reason “and” is traditionally not used as the last word of a sentence. Because it requires an antecedent.

Edited to add: I would support “StuffAnd?” because that would be funny.

Last edited 3 years ago by docgooden85
Spahn_and_Sain
3 years ago
Reply to  docgooden85

Understanding “I can’t even” is not a matter of grammar, it is a matter of rhetoric, it’s aposiopesis, it’s designedly incomplete.

bloopity
3 years ago
Reply to  docgooden85

This is the most wrong an unhinged take I’ve seen here in a while. The confidence is impressive though. If you legit cannot think of other very common uses of + w/o an operand, I guess that’s your world my math guy dude.

Last edited 3 years ago by bloopity
Spahn_and_Sain
3 years ago
Reply to  bloopity

Here’s hoping the stuff+ algorithm utilizes k+ means.

JCCfromDCMember since 2016
3 years ago

Baseball being baseball, in his first start after this article posted Gray goes six solid innings (1 run) in Coors with a light wind blowing out to left. Not citing as a counter argument, just amused.

Last edited 3 years ago by JCCfromDC
docgooden85Member since 2018
3 years ago
Reply to  JCCfromDC

I was unreasonably frustrated about this too. Good decisions leading to bad outcomes 47% of the time is the worst part of fantasy/gambling on baseball. Here’s to the long run and may we eventually find it.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago

Where can we find the Pitchingbot and stuff+ lists?

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  Ben Clemens

Awesome, thank you.

NATS FanMember since 2018
3 years ago

Not Josiah Gray! I need more light way down there please!

NATS FanMember since 2018
3 years ago

When I think about it, wouldn’t any pitcher have bad pitch modeling stats in any game they give up 3 home runs? Every pitcher has a bad day now and then. I’ll bet if Ohtani has a 3 home run pitching day with several base runners his pitches will model poorly that day.

tyke
3 years ago
Reply to  NATS Fan

sometimes good hitters hit good pitches

Sleepy
3 years ago

Shohei Ohtani, Los Angeles Angels

PitchingBot Stuff: 74, 1st among starters

Stuff+: 152, 1st among starters

…in a game the Angels lost. To arguably the worst team in baseball. Which is just the most Ohtani thing possible.

96mncMember since 2020
3 years ago

My early observation I’d that stuff+ might overrate curveballs and their effect on hitters while it struggles with change ups and forkballs.

Last edited 3 years ago by 96mnc
Ves
3 years ago
Reply to  96mnc

Eno Sarris has said that they still have trouble with changeups multiple times on his various podcasts. It’s a known flaw of his model and something him and his numbers guy are still working on.