Here Comes Your Manager: Three Teams Pick New Skippers

An entire offseason’s worth of managerial reshuffling took place early Monday afternoon, as the most coveted managerial role was filled and the most coveted managerial candidate found a home — just not how you’d think.
The Guardians first announced the hiring of Mariners bullpen coach and golden-voiced baritone Stephen Vogt. Shortly thereafter, news broke that the Cubs were hiring outgoing Brewers manager Craig Counsell, despite already having David Ross under contract for that position. Counsell had been expected to follow former Brewers baseball ops boss David Stearns to the Mets, but when he landed in Chicago, the Mets unveiled Yankees bench coach Carlos Mendoza as their new manager.
Counsell, regarded as one of the top skippers in the sport, has reset the market for manager salaries with a five-year, $40 million contract. A free agent after his Brewers contract expired, he interviewed with both New York and Cleveland and was regarded as both teams’ top choice. When he made his unexpected switch to Chicago, that made the other teams’ decisions easier, and thus followed the busy afternoon on the coaching carousel.
All three of these managerial hires depended on what Counsell decided to do, so let’s go through them in the order he would have considered them.
First: Cleveland. The Guardians are replacing Terry Francona, their highly decorated and highly successful manager of 11 seasons’ tenure. He had suffered several health scares over the past few seasons and stepped down at the end of 2023 at the age of 64.
From the outside, I don’t know why Counsell would leave Milwaukee for Cleveland, other than to pursue change for change’s sake. If he wanted to live on the Great Lakes and manage a team built to find the cheapest possible route to 88 wins, Milwaukee has a better roster and more financial support from ownership.
Counsell had been with the Brewers, either as a player, in the front office, or as manager, for the past 17 seasons, and was very much the face of a team run by a GM entering his second year. Had Counsell gone to Cleveland, he likely would’ve had less influence working under the Chris Antonetti-Mike Chernoff duo that’s been entrenched there for years. I don’t know what Cleveland could have offered in terms of finances, team competitiveness, or office politics that would’ve been an improvement on what Counsell had in Milwaukee.
So the Guardians turned to Vogt, whose single year with the Mariners represents the sum total of his professional coaching and managerial experience. They aren’t hiring a complete neophyte off the active roster or the broadcast booth — a strategy that was popular a decade ago and quickly became unpopular after it repeatedly ended in disaster — but it’s close.
Of the 30 full-time MLB managers at the end of the 2023 season, only three had as little professional coaching and/or front office experience as Vogt: David Ross, Alex Cora, and Aaron Boone. Only two others, Counsell and Kevin Cash, had three years of experience or less when they got their first managerial gig. Ross just got fired to make room for Counsell after four disappointing seasons. Cora won a title in his first season, though he had additional front office and managerial experience in the Puerto Rican winter league, and there were… extenuating circumstances. And Boone — well, how are we feeling about Aaron Boone these days, Yankees fans?
On the other hand, Counsell and Cash are two of the best managers in the league. So the right guy can come in and be successful even without much experience. We won’t know about Vogt as a manager for a while, but he’s very well-liked within the game; more than that, he made his reputation as the mother duck to a young Oakland pitching staff in the middle of the last decade. Vogt has had Future Manager written all over him for years, but we’ll see if he’s coming out of the oven underbaked.
Counsell was supposed to end up in New York with Stearns, the latest top-class baseball mind brought to the Big Apple by Steve Cohen’s hideously swollen wallet. Nevertheless, Milwaukee reportedly offered to make Counsell the highest-paid manager in the game on a $5.5 million-a-year deal and expected to be competitive until he made his final decision. Ultimately, the Mets (and Cubs, it turns out) were willing to go higher. Brewers owner Mark Attanasio seems to be taking it well.
Here is Brewers principal owner Mark Attanasio's full opening "Craig has lost us and he's lost our community" statement. pic.twitter.com/fJ57oEQuMA
— Curt Hogg (@CyrtHogg) November 6, 2023
As for the Mets, once they were relegated to runner-up, they acted quickly, offering the job to Mendoza. In contrast to the affable but inexperienced Vogt, Mendoza is the very image of a first-time manager. He spent about a decade as a minor league infielder, then retired at age 29 and joined the Yankees’ minor league coaching staff. He spent the ensuing 15 years with the organization, the past six of them in the majors under Boone. He has become a serial managerial candidate of late, interviewing for about half a dozen jobs, including the open Cleveland gig. He’s been around long enough to have risen through the ranks and paid his dues and is still relatively young; he turns 44 in a few weeks. If you were going to design a résumé for a good first-time manager, you’d end up with something that looks like Mendoza’s.
And good luck to him, as the Mets have ridden managers hard and put them away wet, even before Cohen started waving $300 million payrolls around in front of a very excitable set of fans and local media. The most recent Mets manager to last more than two seasons was Terry Collins, who not only won a pennant, but was also on the more… tenacious end of the spectrum as far as major league bench bosses go. Bobby Valentine was the only other Mets manager in the past 30 years to last more than 600 games in charge; surely no one else before or since has matched the energy of the franchise so well. Cohen and Stearns obviously hired Mendoza expecting someone a little less weird. And that could end up being the smart play in the long run; maybe finding a safe custodian is what they need right now, instead of another headline-grabbing name.
Which leaves the Cubs, a club that wasn’t even part of the conversation until the news broke. (No offseason institution is more fun than Jon Heyman dropping “mystery team.” The mystery team has to come through at least some of the time in order for the bit to keep working. This should sustain us for another winter or two.) Given that the club didn’t dismiss Ross until it hired Counsell, it’s fair to assume that this was an opportunistic move. It’s the second time in three managerial hires that the Cubs cashiered an unobjectionable bench boss in order to bring in the top name on the market; we all remember the Rick Renteria-for-Joe Maddon shuffle of 2014.
Chicago’s ability to compete in the past decade has had a lot to do with how much money the Ricketts family is willing to invest. As the Maddon era collapsed, Chicago sagged from a top-five payroll team to something closer to the median. Under Ross last year, the Cubs were the ninth-biggest spenders in the league and nearly made the playoffs. If this move is meant to signal a new commitment to winning, there’s no reason to expect Counsell to be less successful than Maddon was. If this is an attempt to get him to do his middling payroll-to-division title alchemy an hour and a half down I-94, there are no guarantees. When the Cubs are good, there are few better places, if any, to win. When they’re bad, well, imagine the Mets, but poor. It can get ugly fast. But the Rickettses have more than doubled Counsell’s salary and made a huge splash to make this upgrade, so let’s be optimistic for the time being.
So why would Counsell choose the Cubs over the Mets? Well, first of all, it was the most lucrative offer, which shouldn’t be ignored. Second, the Mets are going to be in a retooling phase for at least another year, in a division with three teams that made the playoffs last year, including an Atlanta club that should be the class of the National League for some time. (I reserve the right to revisit this opinion if another NL team signs Shohei Ohtani.) The Cubs need to replace Cody Bellinger, Jeimer Candelario, and Marcus Stroman this offseason in order to tread water, but that’s not an impossible task. And nobody knows better than Counsell how winnable the NL Central is. There is upside here, perhaps even more than exists for the financially flush Mets.
Then there’s the lifestyle component. Counsell was born in Indiana, grew up in Wisconsin, went to Notre Dame, and spent the past 17 years working in Milwaukee in some capacity. He has two sons who play baseball in the Big Ten. Moving to Chicago nets him an extra $2.5 million a year compared to what he would’ve made by staying in Milwaukee and is at the absolute worst a lateral move in terms of team infrastructure. And it presents a fraction of the disruption that moving to New York would’ve entailed.
It certainly came as a shock that Counsell would end up with the Cubs, and in some respects turning down the Mets does carry risk. But it’s also Counsell’s best chance to have his cake and eat it, too.
Michael is a writer at FanGraphs. Previously, he was a staff writer at The Ringer and D1Baseball, and his work has appeared at Grantland, Baseball Prospectus, The Atlantic, ESPN.com, and various ill-remembered Phillies blogs. Follow him on Twitter, if you must, @MichaelBaumann.
Honestly, I like Vogt as a Guardians fan. We aren’t going to be good for a bit, and he’s always been great at building rapports, getting guys to settle in, and working with media and fans alike. He got two AS berths off of mediocre (for MLB) athleticism, savvy, and a good swing. At least in the short term, I like it. Any veteran manager we hired would instantly be compared (unfavorably) to Tito and the legacy he left behind, both in the dugout, on the field, and in the stands and behind TV screens. Vogt neatly sidesteps most of those problems after a beloved playing career. And he’s still more experienced (and personable) than Boone was at the time of his hiring.
It’s strange that a team that won a division a year ago doesn’t think it will be good for a bit. Why can’t they be good?
I’m assuming it’s because their offense stunk last year and they typically don’t spend what is needed to land the offensive difference maker(s) they need. I disagree that this team won’t be good for a while, but I agree they aren’t very good as constructed at the moment. The pitching is fine, the offense needs work, but most of the pieces of a good lineup are there. Kwan, Gimenez, Jose, and both Naylors are above average regulars. Laureano is a nice supplementary piece (as long as he’s not playing every day). Arias, Rocchio, Freeman, Valera, and Manzardo all have prospect pedigree and figure to be part of the equation next year (if they aren’t traded, which some might be). If they could somehow add two average or plus hitters to this roster, they could easily be good again next year.
Not only the offense, but the starting pitching too. Bieber is almost certainly going to be traded, and I’m not a believer in Quantrill. We have great young starters, and I’m very happy about them, but I would not be surprised at all to see the unit backslide next year. Especially because of the TINSTAPP rule, and the Pitchers-Are-Injury-Time-Bombs rule.
Furthermore, I’m not a believer in most of our position-player prospects. Rocchio looks way overrated (seriously, he was terrible in the majors and has been below-average in AAA), Arias still has tremendous swing and miss issues, and Valera has only been a below-average hitter in AAA over his 115 games there, so I don’t think he’s ready yet. Freeman looks fine, but also like an average hitter. Gonzalez looks more and more like a flash in the pan, and Brennan’s offense will never be consistent because it’s fully BABIP-dependent. Manzardo, I like. And Bo is of course good. But that’s two positions out of like six that we needed help with last season. Maybe Andres Giminez finds what he was missing for most of last year too, but that’s still a lot of issues. Our offense went from way over-inflated by BABIP to slightly worse than they should have been. They aren’t going to replicate 2022.
Furthermore, Tito was the franchise since before anyone on this current roster, and most of the front office (everyone but Antonetti, really). That leadership void is not going to be filled overnight regardless of who you bring in. There will be growing pains.
I don’t not agree with you in certain ways, but both Naylors, Manzardo, Gimenez, Kwan and Ramirez is 6 of your starting 9. You’ve got imagine one of Rocchio, Freeman, Arias, Brito, Martinez is able to be good enough to hit 9th and play either SS or 2B.
It just leaves CF and RF as issues, one of which could easily be fixed this offseason.
And the pitching factory hasn’t really stopped at all for like….a long time, so I am not really expecting it to slow down any time soon.
They should compete for a central division crown again, although sure, that bar isn’t too high
Stopped? No. Slowed down? Hell yes it has. 2019 and 2021 were both years where issues showed themselves early and often. Players will get hurt, underperform, and/or both. We got WAY luckier than we had any right to last season, and the bullpen were way overworked. And guys like Quantrill, Tomlin, TJ House, Zach Plesac, and Adam Plutko spent their entire tenure with the team overperforming. The front end of the rotation has always been solid. But not the back end. And that’s the biggest difference between an average team and a contender imo.
If you expect the Guardians to sign anything or anyone to “fix” a hole in the roster, you don’t know this team. Or the Cleveland-area Dolans. Cheap does not begin to cover it. Unless we get a minimum signing who goes off, we aren’t getting that hole patched. The only way it fixes itself long-term is one of the prospects figures it out, which I’ve already said I don’t buy.
Also, while this lineup has a higher floor because of the ability to generate contact, their lack of raw power caps the ceiling too. Bo and Josh, along with J-Ram, are the only power threats on the roster. Giminez, Kwan, Manzardo, and the young guns are various flavors of average or worse in that regard. We won’t completely suck. But I could easily see us being very bland on offense again.
they spent like 22M last year on free agents. they ran payrolls in the 90M range back in the early 10s.
They ran a 95M payroll to open last year and are currently sitting somewhere around 90M. They put 500k more butts in seats this year vs last year
They said back in like 2018 that the 100M range was where they were most comfortable, and you’ve got to imagine that that is something that has gone up a bit since that is 5 years ago. Most payrolls increase by about 4% a year among the sport, and CLEs did most years since Dolan took over outside of a few where they cut it down.
There is not reason to think they couldn’t add 20M to payroll and roll with a 110M roster this season and be totally fine with it, especially since they have the new minority owner in place and he is supposed to gain more and more control over the franchise each year.
Like Dolan bought the team in 2000. They gutted payroll down to 30M by 2004. By 2009 payroll was at about 80M. They added 50M over 5 years. They took 2 years to cut in 2010 and 2011, and then took 2 years to build back up and they were at 80M again in 2013. By 2018 they were running a payroll of about 140M. They added 60M to payroll over 5 years. They are on record saying that 2018 they went too high for what they could afford, and cut down, then COVID happened and messed lots of things up for many owners. And they are back up to close to 100M this past year which is what they ran in 2020.
They add to payroll. Usually around 10-12M a year over the last years payroll, unless they are in a cutting period. Which they aren’t. A 110M payroll is not crazy to think about, and would give them 20-25M to work with, maybe more depending on what they do with ARB and if they can somehow figure out how to unload Straw.
Yes, they are fairly cheap in comparison to most other owners and it will be very nice for us CLE fans to finally be rid of them with fingers crossed that Blitzer spends more money.
But they add payroll to the team. They fix issues. Suggesting otherwise is just peddling a narrative that isn’t really accurate.
Dolan is cheap, nobody disputes that.
But if you track the times the team adds payroll it is when he has a minority chipping in. Like when Sherman was owner-in-waiting. Then he bought the Royals and not only did Dolan have to fund the tram alone, he had to buy out Sherman’s share out of escrow.
It took years but he found David Blitzer to buy 25-30% to clear out the debt to Sherman and boost payroll with the *promise* of taking over in 5(?) years as majority owner.
How much that will help the budget is TBD but realistically, who are they going to pick up? Bellinger was and is the best fit and he is going to be out of their range (and anybody in either Central except the Cubs).
No quick fix for the offense.
By the same token, don’t write off the kid pitchers. There’s talent there so the rotation will be fine. The bullpen though? Help needed.
So this is why I have an issue with the narrative because statements like these just aren’t accurate. As stated above, he added 50M to payroll from 2004 to 2009. He added about 20M to payroll from 2013 to 2016. Sherman came on in April 2016. They were adding 7-10M without Sherman.
Yes, they gutted when he left, and by 2021 they were sitting at 50M. But they increased payroll by 30M going into 2022 and Blitzer wasn’t around yet
He adds payroll by himself. Yes, it isn’t a lot, and when he has a minority owner, it is usually more than by himself.
But he adds anywhere from 7-12M on average by himself, and when he has a minority owner, it’s more. He has one now.
They started 2023 with a 100M payroll. There is no reason to think they can’t add 10M to that. The payroll right now is under 90M.
But ya, they aren’t adding Bellinger. No one with a brain would suggest they are. But Gurriel at 15M per year or so? Hernandez at 15-20M per year or so? totally doable
not entirely sure what the downvote is for. you move Kwan to CF and roll with the following and this absolutely can compete for the division
Kwan
new LF via trade
Ramirez
J Naylor
Sign Hernandez to play RF
B Naylor
Manzardo
Arias
Gimenez
that’s bringing in two players. They aren’t that far away. Sure, they likely don’t do this because they won’t move Kwan to CF, but it is what they SHOULD do as it would open up 2 corner OF spots to fill with power, which is what they need
What they’re more likely to do is platoon Laureano and Brennan in CF, bring in a retread 1B/RF and hold auditions for DH/1B. In the ALC that might even work.
Your concerns about the rotation could apply to any team. The fact that Cleveland could role into the regular season with Cal Quantrill or Logan Allen as their 6th starter has them in pretty good shape. Quantrill is fine as a back-of-rotation regular season innings eater. Obviously, that changes somewhat if Bieber is traded, which I’m not convinced is a guarantee based on his 2023 and the strength of the FA market.
On offense, if the Guardians can get to a point where guys like Brennan, Valera, Straw, and Laureano are bench/depth pieces and not integral to their success, then I think they’re in good shape. The shortstops can at least play defense, unlike what they got from Rosario last year. They’re all young enough that offensive growth is possible as well.
If they do nothing this off-season and let the kids play next year, they most likely won’t be very good. If they can add a couple hitters and maybe some pitching reinforcements, I like their chances of being in the playoff hunt next year.
They were 10 games under .500 in 2023, their division will likely improve raising the bar for success, and it’s unclear where Cleveland’s commensurate improvement is supposed to come from. Triston McKenzie’s return gets you a few WAR. A bounce back from Beiber if they don’t trade him? I struggle to look at the lineup and see where any meaningful improvement comes from.
Maybe they’ll make a free agent splash? [waits for laughter to die down]
a full year of Bo should help. Some slight improvement from Gimenez and Kwan should help. The BP not blowing like 25 games should help.
they also 100% have the money to make a free agent splash. Last year they ran about a 100M payroll out the gate. This year by my estimate it’ll be somewhere around 90M as currently constructed. They could easily add 15-20M to payroll
Everything you’re saying is reasonable individually, but them all happening in aggregate (a) feels like a best case scenario, and (b) doesn’t hugely move the needle.
And none of this accounts for something that went well going worse.
And payroll….well, I’d say it’s even money that ownership pockets the $10M, but if they do decide to spend it I bet it comes in the form of extending pre-arb players, not meaningful additions.
they have a history of spending about 10-12M more year over year in payroll. Payroll to start 2023 was close to 100M. Right now payroll sites somewhere around 88M. Less if they don’t tender Laureano or Karinchak who are certainly a bubble candidates for DFA. They are set to make about 6M between the two of them.
They could be going into December with a projected payroll of like 82M and it isn’t outlandish to expect them to be sitting somewhere around 110M by April. That’s almost 30M. Sure, they could extend some people but generally speaking guys aren’t getting MASSIVE raises when you do that. Gimenez went from pre arb 700 to making 1.5M in the first year of his deal. That’s a 700k raise over what they were expecting to pay him. Even if they extended 2-3 players, you’d have to anticipate they could still have 20+ million to play with
sign Hernandez to 18M per. Make a trade for a guy like Ward who is set to make 4.5M. DFA Laureano who is set to make the same so its a wash payroll wise
Payroll is sitting around 105M and they just added like 40+ HR to the OF and just filled there two biggest needs with RHH power bats
and it’s 100% possible. They added 30M to payroll year over year from 2021 to 2022. 20M from 2022 to 2023. They added Bell (16M) and Zunino (6M) to the team last year.
They can 100% add
Yes they “can”, and yes it’s “possible”, but is it likely?
And even if they do an add ala Bell & Zunino, does it really help that much?
Full year of Bo + Triston + a Bell like acquisition + no regression from anyone else(JRam isn’t getting any younger) makes them what…500ish?
It’s just hard for me to see this team as anything but an also ran unless a couple players take a quantum leap forward and turn into stars.
“they also 100% have the money to make a free agent splash. Last year they ran about a 100M payroll out the gate. This year by my estimate it’ll be somewhere around 90M as currently constructed. They could easily add 15-20M to payroll”
Two things though – (1) could add $15-20MM in payroll and will add $15-20MM in payroll are two different things, especially talking Cleveland’s ownership group; and (2) I don’t know if $15-20MM, even if fully spent, is enough to create a “splash” that changes your team’s fortunes. (just as an example) Does Teoscar Hernandez qualify as a “splash”? If your baseline projection is 82 wins, he gets you to what, 84?
you both above made the same point so i’ll address it once.
Again, yes. They have added anywhere from 7-12M a year to payroll on average basically ever since 2004, expect in years when they are trimming. They are not in a trimming pattern, they just exited one. That would put there expected payroll somewhere in the 110M range. At present, it is around 88M. That’s 22M available to do stuff with.
And ya, why not re improvement. Gimenez and Kwan can both improve. A full year of Naylor will help significantly. Adding 30 HR to the OF will provide 40+ extra runs in and of itself. These improvements can probably pretty easily add 60-70 runs to the offense.
Health from Bieber and McKenzie as well as improvement in the BP and them not blowing like 25-30 games over the course of a season can likely drop there RA by 30-40 runs.
Them going from a -30 RD to a +75 RD easily pushes them into contention
Assuming full health everywhere and uniform improvement across the board may leave you disappointed come the end of next year…
good thing i didn’t say that
Well, yesterday was the craziest managerial carousel that I can remember in my lifetime. Counsell interviewing for a job that was already filled and the Cubs rushing out and sneakily interviewing Counsell with only Hoyer and the owner being aware was pretty snake like. The Cubs have done something similar in the past nearly a decade ago with Maddon. Good for Counsell for setting the market for managers and the Cubs definitely upgraded. The reports are that the Cubs significantly outbid everyone on Counsell I kind of wish the Mets matched them but he probably stays closer to home. I’m not going nuts and comping the Mendoza to guys like Rojas and Callaway who flopped as first time managers like the most of the media and Mets fans are just terribly stupid and lazy analysis on their part. I don’t know how Mendoza will do but burying him on day one was stupid. Keith Law aka the worlds angriest sports writer didn’t cover himself in glory by going off on how you can’t hire guys with no managerial experience when it comes to the Voght hiring! Hello there are a decent amount of guys with no experience managing in the minors turned out fine like Counsell,Servais Baldelli and Hinch(though his first run wasn’t good), I believe. The whole thing was madness and the hour where everyone wondered which team hired Counsell was fun I guessed wrong btw.
Maybe he can stay above the Mendoza line…from a managerial standpoint he only needs to reach 33 wins!
Occasionally people get offers to relocate clear across the country for more money (and often other things too). Some of the time, their bosses take it seriously and offer them the money so they don’t leave.
And the rest of the time, their bosses look at their employee and say to themselves: They married a local person, they have kids in the schools, it would be super stressful for them to move clear across the country and start over again. We don’t have to match the offer, we just have to meet them halfway; no need for us to bid against ourselves. (Not coincidentally, the bosses say this a lot more often about their women employees than men, but that’s not a factor in this case)
If you want to know what happened from the Brewers’ side of things, they had talked themselves into thinking that they didn’t have to offer $7M a year or whatever the magic number was because they didn’t take Counsell’s outside offers seriously. Their guy had grown up in Milwaukee, his family was happy in Milwaukee, etc. It just never occurred to them that he was serious. And he saw that. You really shouldn’t take your best employees for granted like that.
Attanassio’s offer would have made Counsell the highest paid manager per year in MLB.
Counsell never gave him an opportunity to match the Cubs offer.
No one was taken for granted, except for the Brewers fan base by Counsell.
And the Brewers fan base by Attanasio. “Highest paid manager in MLB” is about as meaningless as the Angels offering Ohtani “highest paid DH in MLB” and trying to sell that to their fans. When the market goes up you’re either in because you believe in the asset or you’re out because you don’t at the asking price.
How did he take the Brewers fan base for granted? Seems a bit hyperbolic. Guy got a better job offer. Who turns that down?!
Not to pile on while you’re obviously upset, but the “Brewers fan base” is one of the smallest and most insignificant in the league. Cubs meanwhile have one of the largest fanbases nationwide.
This almost certainly didn’t factor in his decision because if fan bases were important to him he would’ve left Milwaukee long ago.
Ladies and gentlemen of the Fangraphs community,
I’m just a caveman. I fell in some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me.
Sometimes the honking horns of your traffic make me want to get out of my BMW and run off into the hill, or whatever.
Sometimes when I get a text on my smartphone, I wonder, “did little demons get inside and type it?” I don’t know!
My primitive mind can’t grasp these concepts.
But there is one thing I do know.
When a manager like Craig Counsell, witnesses his front office trade away a player who was arguably their team’s best hitter for an unranked prospect instead of exercising its team option on that player, then he is entitled to no less than $8 million dollars in contractual salary on a 5-year guarantee.
Thank you!
I don’t think many people – cavemen included – are going to make the argument that Canha was/is the best hitter on the Brewers roster. He had a 150+ AB streak, but he’s not better than Yelich, Adames, or likely even a decent number of the young outfielders that will take his spot.
Airforce21one,
I’m just a caveman. I fell in some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me.
I don’t understand what AVG, OBP or wRC+ mean.
My primitive mind can’t grasp these concepts.
But there is one thing I do know.
The bigger the number, the more and better your AVG, OBP and wRC+ are.
When Mark Canha finished his season with the Brewers having made 204 plate appearances in 50 games, he finished with a .287 AVG (2nd on the team by just .002), .373 OBP (1st on the team), and 120 wRC+ (3rd on the team, only 4 behind the leader). Christian Yelich finished with a .278 AVG, .370 OBP, and 122 wRC+, and Willy Adames finished with a .217 AVG, .310 OBP, and 94 wRC+.
And if you only sample the qualified hitters from the period in which he played as a Brewer, his numbers were the 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd best. Meanwhile, Yelich had a .248 AVG, .360 OBP, and 98 wRC+, and Adames had a .239 AVG, .348 OBP, and .114 wRC+.
Canha was better than Adames and Yelich in his time with the Brewers, no Brewer was but a rounding error ahead of him in AVG or wRC+ for the season. That is why I feel confident stating that Mark Canha was arguably the team’s best hitter in 2023.
Thank you!
Canha is a better hitter than Adames. (saying nothing of positions played, just strictly on their hitting ability alone) I would say he’s a tad behind Yelich – achieving their value in very different ways but not dissimilar on the whole.
Also I am here for the unfrozen caveman lawyer shtick.
They had the option to match the Mets and didn’t, why would they match a higher offer (unless they lowballed against New York for the reasons, @sadtrombone is saying).
That’s what you take away from this, that the Brewers cheaped out because of Counsell’s “family commitments”? Not the fact that the Cubs manager under contract just found out he was out of a job when his employer publicly announced his replacement?
I’m a Brewers fan, and honestly, I don’t think spending 1/10 of our budget on a manager is a good move. Further, now the Brewers can give one of the “little guys” a chance to manage in the bigs. Isn’t that doing the “right thing”?
The second question is wrong. https://theathletic.com/5038015/2023/11/06/cubs-craig-counsell-david-ross-jed-hoyer/
Is it milquetoast to say neither party was in the wrong here? Brewers made a competitive offer, it got blown out of the water, and Counsell was well within his rights to choose both the better offer and the better baseball situation.
(I also don’t think Attanasio’s comments are a big deal — he’s the owner trying to support his team and is promoting their culture.)
Attanasio’s comments are indeed a small deal, and 100% chickenshit. Like he made enough $$$ to become managing partner of a MLB baseball team by ever leaving one single nickel on the table.
Potentially. I suppose it’s possible that they legitimately didn’t ever want to pay a manager more than $5.5M a year. It might not make that much sense to spend $7M or $8M a year on a manager. That said, every comment I’ve seen by anyone involved in this situation leads me to believe that they thought they could get away with it.
Counsell didn’t even move clear across the country. Just 90 miles down the road.
He was going to be away from his home city at least 81 days a year plus spring training anyway. He could probably even manage the Cubs, still spend some nights in Milwaukee and just get a place in Chicago to stay at when he needs/wants to and not be away from his family much more than he would be if he had stayed with the Brewers.
The reports are that the Mets didn’t really top the Brewers’ offer by much. So in a way, the Brewers were probably right. But when the Cubs and their huge money showed up just down the road…
Likely.
Counsell agreed to talk to Cleveland, why?
Well, until he retired, Francona was the highest paid manager so Counsell was looking to be paid. Going to Cleveland was an invitation to bid.
Whatever Cleveland and Milwaukee offered got beat by the Cubs, plain and simple. NYM? Maybe they offered more money, maybe less. Whatever it was it wasn’t enough to offset the downsides that went with the big budget.
He was a FA and he did what Free agents do.
Francona was the highest-paid manager, of last year and whose salary details were publicly known. Historically, it was not that high, and it seems there’s a very good chance someone else was higher this year.
Do you want to get things thrown at you, Baumann? Because this is how you get things thrown at you.
Seriously, yesterday’s events are hilarious in that they further inflamed the spicy-for-the-Midwest Brewers-Cubs rivalry, and somehow managed to piss off both Yankees and Mets fans at the same time.
And Stephen Vogt.
Overall score: 10/10, would recommend
I’m not sure there’s much Brewer hatred by Cubs fans. That would be for Cardinals and maybe White Sox
If:
The Cubs are Michigan, and
The Cardinals are Ohio State, then
The Brewers are Michigan State
The fact that the Brewers have been better than both the Cardinals and Cubs is immaterial. (Note that at times where Michigan State is better than Michigan and Ohio State, this statement works for them too)
I thought the White Sox were Michigan State
The White Sox are Purdue, man.
LMHAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As an MSU alum, I’d say that’s a pretty accurate statement.
You can explain a lot of things using that analogy. Many years ago when it was a real news outlet, Sports Illustrated ran this poll asking college sports fans who their biggest rival was. In the Big 10, something like 90% of Michigan fans picked Ohio State, and 90% of Ohio State fans picked Michigan. And you would see teams like Michigan State overwhelmingly pick Michigan or Ohio State and I thought “they know you exist, and they don’t like losing to you, but they’re not thinking about you.”
Other analogies are Duke-UNC and NC State. Or the United States-literally any other country and Canada (this is true in sports and real life, too).
As a Washington State fan I just saw this play out as WSU fans see Washington as their biggest rival and the Apple Cup as always the most important game on the schedule. Meanwhile UW considers Oregon their real rival and WSU a distant secondary rival.
A fun exercise is drafting protected opponents for college football. Since conferences have gotten big enough that every team can’t play every other team each year, ask each fanbase who are the 3 opponents they think need to be on the schedule each year. Pretty quick you will realize more than a full conference schedule worth thinks they are rivals with the big brands (Bama, Ohio St, Florida St, Oregon) while those teams barely even consider half of the teams that view them as rivals.
It’s not a pronounced in pro-sports, but I suspect the rest of the AL East all views the Yankees as their big rival while the Yankees care way, way more about the Red Sox than the Rays, Orioles, or Blue Jays.
I know the whole AL West sees the Astros as the team they care most about beating, but I honestly don’t know which division rival the Astros care most about.
Probably the Rangers. This year, anyway.
It would be the Rangers going back to interleague play and how badly the Rangers used to fry the Astros when they first moved over. The Rangers made their last playoff appearance prior to this year in 2016 basically solely by beating the snot out of the Astros that year (this feat was not repeated beginning the next year).
Starting next year, WSU will have only one rival, Oregon St. Fighting all the way to the bank for the championship of the Pac-2.
Or is it 2-Pac?
Just neighing.
Rangers, most likely.
Reminds me of A&M vis a vis Texas and OU in the old Big 12.
There is one other thing that I was thinking of. It probably didn’t make a difference in Counsell’s decision, but it does seem like it matters when you’re recruiting a high-level coach or executive. Which is: For the Brewers or Guardians, if they’re offering a huge salary to the manager, does this come out of the budget for the players? It seems ridiculous. An extra $2.5M per year is basically nothing. But both franchises have been exceptionally…frugal, lately. Does a person like Counsell ever think to himself, “are they really willing to commit to winning, or just to continuity?”
Maybe not straight from player budget but in some non-direct way yes. I guess teams have something like big overall budget for players, ML coaches, front office, non baseball staff, minor league players and coaches, logictics, equipment, marketing and promotions etc… there is a lot of expenditures behind the curtains and if they spend extra somewhere the money must be kind of save somewhere else. Maybe not from players or not only from players, but somewhere.
All operating expenses other than marketing come out of the same budget in any business or should. Player salaries are only a bit different because of luxury taxes
You’re asking if baseball teams have an overall budget….?
What does $8M get you in player value?
A 1WAR FA?
Seems like a bit of a tough break for Ross, who had a winning record every year the Ricktts were spending.
He’ll get another chance. Maybe not immediately (there are only so many musical chairs) but he didn’t do anything disqualifying for his future managerial employment.
Ya just preferring Counsell doesn’t mean Ross isn’t one of the top 30 managers. Any more than preferring Sean Murphy meant that William Contreras isn’t one of the top 30 catchers
What’s the deal with this Mendoza guy? What kind of manager is he expected to be?
Former Yankees minor league infielder, he’s spent a lot of time working with defenses and getting the most out of the fairly mid defenders the Yankees have rolled out over the last six years, both as their infield QC Coach and Bench Coach. He’s gotten most of his experience as a manager filling in after Boone got constantly ejected, so in close or losing efforts, though he was a Minor League manager in their system during the early 2010s. And Brian Cashman said in 2021 that “his day [was] coming without a doubt” as a manager, so he was highly respected within the Yankees org. He’s also been a contender for a lot of jobs recently; Detroit, Boston, and Southside Chicago all had interest in him during their searches since 2018.
Thanks! This is more info than was in the article
So similar to Oliver Marmol or Ron Washington?
I would say more Ron Washington, without the off-field issues. Mendoza is a fairly even-keeled guy from all reports. Give him a bench coach who is good at motivational stuff or good clubhouse guys, and he’ll be quite solid imo. He’s also used to the New York media circus, so being on the Mets won’t be any sort of new territory for him.
Why Counsell would leave Milwaukee, even with the strong personal connection, is because their window is shutting. This is exactly the same case as why Maddon left the Rays. Bad news is on the horizon and staying there while the bottom falls out would absolutely be the wrong move. Burns is in the final year of his contract and will get traded (either now or mid-season)…Woodruff’s likely going to miss all of 2024…The offense was 24th via wRC+ (And that’s with Yelich having his best year since 2019)…. And what’s most indicative is they gave away Canha for nothing even though he was one of their best hitters after he was acquired. Ownership will cry poverty (rolls eyes) and tear it down sooner rather than later.
Or… he could go to the 3rd biggest market for a team that’s on the up and up and poised to spend money. Tough for the Milwaukee man to make this decision (but really it’s not).
He left because Cubs offered him more $ than all other teams. Even Counsell is open about money being the no 1 motivation.
And if Canha is so great value for 11,5M why the best offer from other teams is “nothing”?
Both things can be true. (and are)
You win the Canha debate, tho’.
Also its hard to imagine that Stearns leaving wasn’t a significant factor: manager and the chief baseball ops person are a close partnership, and that’s the most important part of organizational continuity for a manager.
Congrats to Counsell on trousering all that cash, but 5/40 for a manager is silly stuff. Nobody’s that good/better than the rest.
Yeah. Strange to see so much regression on this question among empirically-minded baseball fans. What’s more, for a low-payroll team, this is obviously the right place to pinch some pennies. It might not make much difference to the Mets whether the manager gets paid like a Fortune 500 CEO or merely like a radiologist, but it probably makes a genuine difference to the Brewers’ chances if they pay those dollars to a relief pitcher instead of a guy who doesn’t play on the field.
Because it’s more satisfying emotionally to complain about a baseball owner, that’s why. Poor Craig Counsell was only offered $5M/year by a small-market team? It’s obviously because rich people are jerks!
Always a bit confused by the idea that managers are labor and not management. It’s right there in the name!
Do we know that for sure? In fact, I think IF you think Counsell is the best manager, paying extra to get him is $$ well spent.
His salary doesn’t count against the luxury tax & if he can truly get more out of his players, the difference in pay between him & another generic manager is probably the cost of a middle reliever & is pennies on the $$ of what the extra wins will bring.
this is unequivocally correct
SEC baseball coaches are making $2m/yr these days. $8m/yr doesn’t seem like a silly amount for a big-market, high-payroll MLB team to pay for a manager of Counsell’s ability and experience. What’s silly is spending $200m on players and then cheaping out on the guy you pay to be their boss/leader/coach/counselor/surrogate father.
Is Milwaukee a big market team now?
We accept that $8M is the going price per WAR among players.
Yes, baseball managers have less influence compared to their football, basketball, soccer, etc. counterparts, but is it really silly to think that the difference between a good manager and a mediocre one amounts to one win per 162 game season?
& the difference is actually less than that. The real cost is the difference between Counsell’s $8M & whatever Ross or some other manager would make.
From what I can find,Ross was making $4M per year, so the Counsell is costing them an extra $4M, not $8M.
$$ well spent if he’s as good as we think he is.
How do you know?
“I don’t know what Cleveland could have offered in terms of finances, team competitiveness, or office politics that would’ve been an improvement on what Counsell had in Milwaukee.”
It should be noted that Cleveland’s outgoing Terry Francona was reportedly (per Jon Heyman) the highest-paid manager in baseball, at ~$4.5M.
And he had real power in who to play and how, unlike some front offices who micromanage even the daily lineup.
lol dat headline
These changes are so confusing. Thank goodness the Rockies aren’t heading towards confusion.
They’ve just lived there for the last…pretty much as long as they’ve existed.
David Ross: How could the Cubs do this, letting me guide their team through rebuilding and then dumping me for a big name the owner was in love with???
Rick Renteria: Talk to me when it happens to you twice in the same city.
$8 million a year??? For a RETIRED second baseman???!!!??
This reminds me of when David Tepper gave Matt Rhule a 7 year $60million contract. At least Counsell has a track record at this level but I’m not sure why I’m supposed to believe he is a much better manager than any other.
You can argue MLB managers are underpaid compared to other professional sports or that earning a certain threshold might impact their level of respect with veteran players, but it is not at all clear to me why I should believe he is better at his job than guys who are making 1 or 2 million like Mendoza or presumably Vogt.
MLB managers are underpaid compared to the NFL or NBA because they arguably have less influence on a game.
This one contract is paying him double what he made in his entire MLB playing career.
I would think that is true for many managers who played in MLB. Partly because the things that make you a good managerial candidate aren’t the same things as what make you a sought-after player, so a lot of managers are backup catchers and utility infielders. And partly because salaries in the game weren’t that high for players.
So it’s probably not true for more recent players like Gabe Kapler or David Ross but for someone like Bud Black (who was actually a pretty good pitcher), I wouldn’t be surprised.
This article about managers has a lot of critique about ownership. they either spend too much (mets) or too little (guardians, brewers) or a little of both (cubs)