How Did Previous Andrelton Simmonses Age?

Last night, the Braves traded Andrelton Simmons to the Angels for Erick Aybar and a couple of pitching prospects. While it’s likely that Atlanta’s staff made this deal primarily to acquire Sean Newcomb, a big left-hander with high-end stuff and strikeout rates to match, I think it’s fair to categorize this return as surprisingly light. Newcomb is brimming with upside, but he’s still a pitching prospect who hasn’t yet figured out how to throw strikes on a regular basis, and has made all of seven starts above A-ball. He could figure things out and become an ace, or he could go the Archie Bradley path, where the stuff declines before the command gets better, and the Braves could end up with little to show for trading away the best defensive player on the planet.

But therein lies the rub. While everyone agrees that Simmons is a great defensive player, the Braves don’t appear particularly interested in betting on elite defenders aging particularly well. They balked at Jason Heyward’s salary requests in long-term negotiations, then traded him last winter, rather than keeping a 25 year old star outfielder around as a core building block. Now, for the second time in as many years, the Braves have traded elite defense in a young player for pitching potential, seemingly believing that it is easier to find a good defender with offensive question marks than a power arm who racks up strikeouts.

And as I noted yesterday, there might be some logic to that idea, given that there’s evidence that defensive skills peak earlier than offensive skills. The athleticism that allows a player to make plays that his peers can’t make is more vital for defensive value than hitting skills, and it’s possible (and probably even likely) that the Braves saw the potential for Simmons to lose value in the near future, if his defensive value dipped and his offense didn’t improve to offset the decline. So, it’s probably worth exploring how previous elite defenders have aged, and see if we can find support for the idea that the Braves were selling high before a coming decline.

To answer that question, we have to look at how the best of the best of the young defenders in recent baseball history have performed during the same stretch of their career as Simmons is headed towards. To find other players who have demonstrated similar levels of defensive value, I dumped our leaderboards into Excel and looked for players who racked up significant defensive value through their age-25 season. Given that we only have UZR and DRS dating back to 2002, but I wanted to look at a larger swath of players, I grouped players by their DEF value per 600 plate appearances; DEF is a combination of UZR and the positional adjustment for 2002-2015, and Total Zone and the positional adjustment for all years before 2002. Here are 10 players in baseball history (excluding catchers, who age pretty differently because of the nature of their job) who have compiled a rating of at least 20 defensive runs above average during the 18-25 portions of their career.

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The Best Defenders of Their Time, 18-25
Name PA OFF/600 DEF/600 WAR/600
Ozzie Guillen 2926 -25 28 2.3
Mark Belanger 1350 -16 28 2.8
Andrelton Simmons 1999 -12 27 3.5
Andruw Jones 3971 10 26 5.5
Omar Vizquel 1725 -21 25 2.4
Jim Sundberg 1485 -15 23 2.8
Hal Lanier 1559 -37 23 0.3
Rico Petrocelli 1579 -2 22 4.0
Paul Blair 2096 11 20 5.0
Bobby Grich 2074 18 20 6.1
Average 2085 -9 24 3.5

Unsurprisingly, most of these guys couldn’t hit; there’s usually an inverse relationship between offensive value and defensive value, and the best young defenders we’ve ever seen almost all forced their way into the line-up despite offensive limitations. The fact that Hal Lanier held down a starting job while running a wRC+ in the low 40s should tell you just how remarkable his glove must have been. On average, these 10 players combined for per season ratings (up through age-25) of -9 offensive runs per 600 PA and +24 defensive runs per 600 PA; this made them above average players, but ones where their value was heavily skewed towards the defensive side of the ball. At -12/+27, Simmons is slightly more extreme than even this group, but the group is, overall, a pretty good match for his early career performance.

So, how much of that defensive value did these players maintain after age-25? And perhaps just as important, what happened to their offensive performances from ages 26-30, which are the years the Braves would have controlled Simmons had they not made this trade.

The Best Defenders of Their Time, 26-30
Name PA OFF/600 DEF/600 WAR/600
Ozzie Guillen 2037 -21 19 1.8
Mark Belanger 2544 -17 28 3.0
Andruw Jones 3305 10 21 5.0
Omar Vizquel 2839 -12 13 2.1
Jim Sundberg 2663 4 20 4.5
Hal Lanier 1424 -38 12 -0.8
Rico Petrocelli 2982 16 12 4.9
Paul Blair 2786 4 17 4.1
Bobby Grich 2695 20 8 5.0
Average 2586 -4 16 3.3

Not surprisingly, every player on the list remained a well above average defender, and in most cases, were still among the best defensive players in the game, but note that they did indeed decline in defensive value as they gold older. The group’s average DEF/600 fell from +24 to +16, so they lost nearly a win per season in defensive value as they reached the years normally described as a player’s prime. While Mark Belanger bucked the trend, and Jim Sundberg was able to retain most of his fielding value, the majority of these guys saw their defensive performances drop off in their 26-30 years.

But because they were dropping off from such a high level, they remained valuable contributors even without historic defensive value, and it’s worth noting that their offensive performances did offset some of the defensive decline; the group went from -9 OFF/600 to -4 OFF/600, pushing them closer to the league average in terms of overall offense. Jim Sundberg made the biggest leap, going from being a hitter even worse than Simmons is now to an above average hitter during his peak, putting up +20 WAR during that 26-30 part of his career.

Overall, the group’s production barely moved at all; their +3.5 WAR/600 from 18-25 was almost matched by their +3.3 WAR/600 from age 26-30. They got better offensively and worse defensively, so they weren’t the same extreme kind of above average players they were earlier in their careers, but overall, they remained quite productive with a skillset that still leaned towards the defensive side of the ball. And it’s not like one guy is pulling up the average here; Lanier is the only one of these nine elite young defenders who bombed out as he got older, but his offensive performances were so poor that there’s no real reason to think Simmons is going to follow his path.

It’s worth noting that this aging curve almost identically matches what Dan Szymborski’s five year ZIPS projection for Simmons suggests. In the trade value series from this summer, where Simmons rated #30 overall, I noted that the forecast expects him to put up +17.5 WAR over the next five years, as it believes that he’ll decline slightly over the next few years but remain a +3 to +4 WAR player during the remainder of his contract. While it might be tempting to think ZIPS might struggle with extreme versions of defensive-value players, the other nine guys in history who played the field like Simmons early in their careers suggest that we shouldn’t expect a steep aging curve here.

And because I created an artificial cutoff of +20 DEF/600, we actually ended up omitting the guy who makes the best case for Simmons’ long-term value. Ozzie Smith graded out at +19 DEF/600 by Total Zone’s numbers in his 18-25 years, but then jumped up to +23 DEF/600 from 26-30, while also going from -17 OFF/600 to -5 OFF/600, turning himself from an average player into a star. Smith is the guy Simmons is most often compared to, given his elite defense and high contact rates, and it’s worth noting that he does provide precedent for some upside here. And it’s not just Smith, either; Terry Pendelton also rated at -18 OFF/600 and +19 DEF/600 through age-25, then jumped to +1/+11, so his offense improved more than his defense declined, and he got better as he got older as well.

Smith and Pendleton are at the top of a much larger group (29 players) that ranked between +15 and +19 DEF early in their careers, and as a whole, this group actually went through larger changes. As a group, they put up -6 OFF/600 and +16 DEF/600 from 18-25, so they were just less extreme versions of the bad hit/good field player, but from 26-30, these 29 players combined for +3/+3 ratings; they got a lot worse defensively, but got a lot better offensively, and so their WAR/600 went from +3.1 to +2.7, even with the big defensive drop-off.

So, yes, history suggests that Andrelton Simmons is going to get worse defensively in Anaheim, and we shouldn’t expect him to continue putting up +20 UZRs for much longer. But that history also suggests that the same trends that take some value from his glove should add some back to his bat, and that overall, Simmons should be expected to remain roughly as valuable as he has been to this point in his career. And that’s pretty darn valuable.

For the Angels, this looks like a pretty great deal, picking up one of the best shortstops in baseball for a couple of high variance pitching prospects, plus one year of Erick Aybar. For the Braves, well, I hope they’re right about Sean Newcomb.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

97 Comments
Oldest
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Johnston
10 years ago

Worst trade in decades. Whoever agreed to this travesty on behalf of the Braves should be run out of town on a rail.

And I’m not even a Braves fan. THOSE guys are furious.

TKDC
10 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

Yes, as a Braves fan, this is by far more demoralizing than all the trades last year put together. Last year seemed like “we might have a rough year or two.” Getting rid of a guy with 5 cheap to cheapish years? Fuck that.

tz
10 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Ditto. What will be interesting is when they have 97 B- pitching prospects that they have to protect on a 40-man roster. Which one(s) will go on to be Rule V steals for some other club?

And all of this just makes the Nick Markakis signing even more ridiculous. Not to mention the Hector Olivera trade.

Brian
10 years ago
Reply to  tz

2 years ago the Braves won 96 games and the division by ten games.

Here’s the core of that team, with their ages –

Freddie Freeman, 23
Andrelton Simmons, 23
Jason Heyward, 23
Justin Upton, 25
Mike Minor, 25
Kris Medlen, 27
Julio Teheran, 22
Craig Kimbrel, 25
Alex Wood, 22
Jordan Walden, 25
Luis Avilan, 23

Now they’re a complete utter tear-down, with only a couple of those guys still on the team.

Like – what happened???

(I mean, I know what happened with most of those guys – some injuries, some contracts set to end, some regression, etc. But in total it must feel like a sucker punch to Braves’ fans.)

Micah
10 years ago
Reply to  tz

To be fair, Brian, of the 11 names mentioned, only two of those traded were younger guys who were long term options for the Braves (Simmons and Wood).

Freeman and Teheran are still actually Braves (for now). Kimbrel was nice, but his contract was high for a reliever and he allowed the Braves to move BJ and gain prospects, so that’s overall a big win in my book. Minor is at the moment a Brave, but an injury issue and could be non-tendered. That’s also what happened to Medlen. Heyward and Upton, as you said, were expiring contracts and good moves. Walden and Avilan are relievers and not really worth mentioning.

So it’s not quite as bad as it looks in terms of selling off a bunch of young guys for questionable returns. I think they took big risks in two trades, and those risks could very well pay off. They basically need Sean Newcomb to post about 15 WAR during his six years of control (assuming he’s not traded), and it’s an even swap if Simmons keeps putting up the same production he is now for the next 5 years of the contract, as Dave suggests (and I question if the bat will get better, which is something I’m working on).

I thought the Braves would trade Simmons, but I thought it would be another year or two down the line when Albies was close and Simmons contract was escalating, but maybe the Braves thought his value would be lower by then due to age/contract issues as much as performance. They are also banking on Albies panning out, and quickly, it seems. If he does, then that mitigates the damage as well as he sounds like a guy who is a notch down from Simmons defensively, but does also bring offensive value. In two or three years, his overall value could very well surpass that of Simmons and his cost is much less.

Getting value out of Aybar and that other good prospect (who no one is really talking about to the point I forgot his name) would just add to the value of the trade even if Newcomb winds up as a mid-rotation guy, and he has the stuff to front a rotation. Of course, he could not pan out at all, so there’s that.

This is definitely high risk, but it also could potentially be very high reward.

fastatlast
10 years ago
Reply to  tz

Jason Heyward and Upton would be gone right now regardless. The team just made they they got a ton of prospects during a year when keeping both would not have gotten them to the playoffs.

Mike Minor, Kris Medlen and Brandon Beachy were all hurt and had to be non-tendered (Minor will possibly be non-tendered this offseason)

Luis Avilan sucks

Which leaves you with Freeman, Simmons, Kimbrel, Wood and a whole lot of nothing. They’ve gotten rid of assets who would have cheap valuable seasons while the Braves weren’t competing, which would be a huge waste. By trading Simmons and his most valuable years left in ’16/’17/’18 they get Newcomb whose valuable years will be ’18/’19/’20 when the rest of the team (Albies, Mallex, and the glut of other pitchers) is ready to compete as well. Of course the Olivera trade doesn’t really fit into any of this so I dont know what the fuck is up with that.

Bob
10 years ago
Reply to  tz

Brian, it’s definitely a bit of a sucker-punch… I mean, people get that rebuilds happen, but it’s weird to be shipping off 26 yr olds…

Keep in mind that if you’re a long-term fan, then you’ve sat through year after year after year of mind-numbingly painful playoff flops… and a lot of fans will tell you that ever since Ted sold the team the front office hasn’t really made a genuine effort to build a championship. Sure, they’re smart enough to build a team that’ll win juuuuust enough games to put butts in the seats, but every single painful faceplant in the playoffs is always followed up with a half-assed offseason and mostly penny-pinched lineup. Everyone gets that most teams can’t be the Yankees, that’s not the point. The point is that at some you’ve got throw people a damn bone and this double-rebuild, clear-cut, obliteration of what was a very young, exciting team is a bit too much for most to stomach. I live in ATL and I have a lot of friends that are really into baseball and I can’t think of anyone that’s going to forgive this team for how they’ve handled the last 10 years.

bleh
10 years ago
Reply to  tz

>Jason Heyward and Upton would be gone right now regardless.

Why, because they’re too cheap to sign them? Why is it that every other franchise has been able to lock up every other star young player through their prime years but the Braves couldn’t lock up 2 of them? Those are 2 great players you build a team around (along with the other guys they had). There is something seriously wrong going on with that org.

Brian
10 years ago
Reply to  tz

Thanks for your replies, Micah and fastatlast, but I think both of you are under the mistaken impression that I’m attributing the Braves’ decline to mismanagement. I mean, maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, but the point of my post was how all this must FEEL to Braves’ fans – how agonizing it must be to have such a young, hopeful core and then a couple years later – poof.

Phantom Stranger
10 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

And no one on MLB Network will openly criticize the Braves for this trade since they are all good friends with John Hart, their former co-worker. John Smoltz looked anguished when asked about this trade on the air. Simmons was the only reason to watch the dreadful Braves over the past two years and now we are looking at 100 losses each the next two seasons.

Let us make no mistake, the Angels had a thin system. Newcomb is no sure pitching stud like Matt Harvey or Cole were ranked as prospects. It’s very possible he never puts up a 3 WAR season in his entire career. Simmons could easily have a 7 War season if he became a 95 OPS+ hitter.

It is now apparent the real Braves’ plan is to compete…in 2019. I have no idea how they expect to compete in 2017 with this projected roster. I guess they think people will come to the new stadium even if the team only wins 60 games.

BenH
10 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

Not as bad as the Teixeira trade.

James
10 years ago
Reply to  BenH

Thanks

-Ranger fan

Mike
10 years ago
Reply to  James

Yeah because those guys really panned out. Neftali Feliz is gone, Matt Harrison is hurt every year, they shipped Salty out very early, and they wish to god Andrus was gone. People overreacted to that trade early on when Feliz and Andrus peaked for a year.

hurtlocker
10 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

The Braves were in the post season 3 of the last 6 years and had a amazing run of success from 1991 to 2005. Sometimes it just takes a few years, no team is great every year. Be patient.

Will Graham
10 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

The Blue Jays just traded 4 years of a top 3 player in the AL for 3 years of an average at best third baseman, two back end starter ceiling guys and a good but not great prospect.

Will Graham
10 years ago
Reply to  Will Graham

Athletics I mean

Will Graham HATE
10 years ago
Reply to  Will Graham

WILL GRAHAM I HATE YOU

Hannibal L
10 years ago
Reply to  Will Graham

ME TOO.

al
10 years ago

Man, all the Orioles….It woulda be nice to see those Orioles teams play

hurtlocker
10 years ago
Reply to  al

Likely the reason a lot of those Orioles pitchers did so well in those years too.

tz
10 years ago
Reply to  hurtlocker

Grich should be in the HOF, and was a great defensive 2B. The only reason he wasn’t a Gold Glove shortstop is that he had to switch for Belanger, who was just below Ozzie as an all-time defensive SS. His glove was so great that he was an above-average overall major leaguer in spite of a career .228/.300/.280 slash line.

That’s right: .228/.300/.280.

Tramps Like Us
10 years ago
Reply to  al

The 69-70-71 Orioles may be among the top 5 teams ever. They don’t get much love for that kind of recognition because they only won 1 world championship. But they were exceptional at every facet of the game. Great pitching, great hitting, and historically great defense. And Earl Weaver to boot.

Anon
10 years ago

Maybe the Braves looked at the landscape and decided teams were starting to overvalue defense. I’m mostly kidding but it will be an intersting off-season with Gordon and Heyward being 2 of the biggest FAs out there and both expected to get hefty deals primarily for their defense. Yes, the both are good hitters but 10 years ago they wouldn’t be getting anything remotely close to what they are going to get for their good but not great bats.

Owen Barron
10 years ago
Reply to  Anon

If they thought teams were overvaluing defense, wouldn’t they hold on until they got back something better than a couple of (promising but) raw pitching prospects? I know you’re being facetious, just adding my bewilderment.

Phantom Stranger
10 years ago
Reply to  Anon

The only thing I can guess is that the Braves thought the local fan community would mutiny in the press and on social media if Simmons being on the trading block got out there for very long. They did the same thing with Kimbrel, keeping mum on trading him until they did trade him.

It appears the Braves wanted the fan backlash kept to a minimum. I do think they could have gotten more for Simmons if every team knew he was available.

jdbolickMember since 2024
10 years ago

The fan backlash is going to be from trading him at all, and especially for such a light return. 2016 attendance is going to be a Marlins-level embarrassment.

Bob
10 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

I genuinely hope it’s worse than that.

Roger
10 years ago

Reports were that half of baseball checked in on Simmons. I’d say they explored the market thoroughly, but quickly.

Likewise Freeman’s availability has been in a hot rumor among scouts for at least 10 days before it went mainstream.

The Braves have long been known for operating in secrecy.

Daniel
10 years ago

I was surprised that Ozzie Smith didn’t make the comp list; they seemed to be fairly similar at the same age

JBone McGraw
10 years ago
Reply to  Daniel

He mentions Ozzie later in the article. Ozzie’s age 18-25 Avg DEF/600 was below the cutoff for this article (20).

Daniel
10 years ago
Reply to  JBone McGraw

Sorry, I missed that!!

Tom
10 years ago
Reply to  JBone McGraw

Here’s a comparison between Ozzie and Simmons through their age 25 seasons:

http://goo.gl/ECQvt5

Simmons has been far superior so far.

TKDC
10 years ago

This is a great article, and the result also matches the gut test. Anyone who has watched Simmons play the last several years would believe he will stay an elite defensive player for at least the next few years. Nobody would get he won’t be a well above average short stop during the last year of his contract, even if he does decline (there is just so far to go).

Two other points:
1. the first graph is mislabeled.
2. Andruw Jones belongs in the hall of fame. I know he’s not eligible, but he’s going to be snubbed when he is and that is wrong.

tz
10 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Andruw Jones is not too far off the career history of the guy who’s going to get in on the first try in 2016:

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=327,96,1009355

Or, to look at it another way, he’s like Dale Murphy with a 30 WAR head start to his career. Should be a no-brainer for the Hall.

JimmyD
10 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

“I know he’s not eligible”
Why not? He has enough service time to be on the ballot. Offensively, he didn’t do enough to get him in, but he’s 8th all-time in defensive value, and only half a win behind Ozzie Smith in total WAR.

bblackwell
10 years ago
Reply to  JimmyD

He played in the majors in 2012. He’s not eligible for induction yet.

Elbo
10 years ago

Jim Sundberg was a catcher.

Tom
10 years ago
Reply to  Elbo

He confused him with Ryne Sandberg?

JKB
10 years ago
Reply to  Elbo

I think he pitched on occasion too…

bothstillplaying
10 years ago
Reply to  Elbo

This is NOT good analysis: 1) Jim Sundberg is a CATCHER, and he is one of just two who showed an improvement in WAR by largely holding his defensive value (along with Mark Belanger); 2) there is no reference to selection bias in the sample, all of these guys had productive years into their 30s w/o injury, cliff falls, etc; and 3) almost all of the offensive improvement is concentrated in just two players who went from negative to positive contributors (Sundberg again–+19 OFF/600 & Rico Petrocelli–+18 OFF/600—Omar Vizquel did improve by +9 OFF/600, but remained negative offensively)…..
I think it is safe to say that Simmons will neither become a catcher, nor morph into Petrocelli, who hit 40 bombs in his age 26 season, but carried a .150+ ISO prior to that (vs Simmons at a .107 career ISO)……
So reversion to the mean probably also eliminates Simmons from becoming Mark Belanger, the best remaining option from this list…….

Ryan
10 years ago

So does this mean we need to reevaluate the true value of a top 50 trade value player? Simmons and Donaldson were guys traded from that list for less than expected (not to overreact to a sample of two). Far off from a conclusion just a thought but Yasiel Puig could provide another data point to base this off of

Owen Barron
10 years ago
Reply to  Ryan

I think 25 out of 30 teams at least would not have done the Donaldson trade, and 30 out of 30 teams would undo it now if they could. I’d say it says more about Beane than about trade value.

Analyst
10 years ago
Reply to  Owen Barron

This.

Jsolid
10 years ago
Reply to  Ryan

And we know how the Donaldson trade turned out.

jdbolickMember since 2024
10 years ago
Reply to  Ryan

This means that General Managers are human beings, and as such they sometimes do incredibly stupid things. What separates a good general manager from a bad one is not whether they do something stupid, but how often.

Riled Up In The LBC
10 years ago

They lost a win per year in defensive value? I assume you are talking about the entire group — but why? Should be on average what each player lost — and that was closer to a run per year not a win.

And big error bars too.

Captain Tenneal
10 years ago

They went from +24 DEF/year to +16/year. At 10 runs per win, losing 8 runs per year is just about losing a win per year.

Sir Issac Drake
10 years ago

You want to do this on a player basis not group basis. No way a player lost one win per year. You would be -52 runs after five years. That doesn’t happen.

Jason B
10 years ago

In aggregate the nine players excluding Simmons went from +215 runs per 600 during their 18-25 seasons to +150 runs per 600 during their 26-30 seasons. That’s a net loss of +65 runs per 600 spread over nine players, or -7.2 runs per 600 per player, or about 0.72 of a win.

Daslied
10 years ago

So Kiley may have had a hand in this trade? Interesting if so…

scotman144Member since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  Daslied

Man I’d love to get his honest opinion on this deal.

no
10 years ago

Andlreton Simmons typo in the first line

hurtlocker
10 years ago

I was amazed at how good defensively Omar Vizquel was with the Giants in his age 38-40 years! I never really saw him play much in his 20’s, but he was still superb at age 38.

Victor Conte
10 years ago
Reply to  hurtlocker

I gave him the last of my secret stash on my way out the door, a proprietary defense blend our finest lab techs were working on.

VinceClortho
10 years ago

… they got a lot worse defensively, but got a lot better offensively, and so their WAR/600 went from +3.1 to +2.7, even with the big defensive drop-off.

Did the N of the smample change? One would expect survivor bias, as guys who’s defense went from elite to above-average, but who’s offense stayed in the poopoo house would fall out of the league. The guys who offset that with improvement at the plate could still hold down a job.

Kevin
10 years ago
Reply to  VinceClortho

Oops, didn’t see this much more succinct version of my post below. Apologies.

Survivor bias. That’s the point I was going for.

Brian L
10 years ago

The Braves clearly don’t believe in the bat improving to offset the defensive decline. If they thought it would/could improve, I can’t imagine even this crazy FO would consider trading a generational defensive talent with average or better hitting potential.

Jay
10 years ago

Be kind of curious as to how the team projections for the Mets and Braves would have changed if they did a Simmons/Harvey swap (or Simmons for Matz/Conforto as was bandied about).

David Bowser
10 years ago
Reply to  Jay

As much as I acknowledge Simmons defensive awesomeness, I’m a Mets fan, so I would not have wanted any deal that trades a 2016 projected starting pitcher.

For me, it pretty much boils down to replacement level math of a SP vs SS plus the fact that Wilmer Flores was actually not a terrible defender (league average at worst to the eyes and better according to the advanced stats). Flores is a better hitter, 2 years younger, and his progression through the minors seems to indicate that he will get better at hitting over the next couple years (Steamer 2016 has a wRC+ 102 vs 89 for Simmons).

Za
10 years ago
Reply to  David Bowser

I’ve heard that a lot about Flores but I’m not sure what numbers are being looked at. He was negative by UZR and the 4th worst in baseball by DRS at -10. Simmons was on the other end of the spectrum at +25. That’s a massive swing, whatever it means.

Thomas Scherrer
10 years ago
Reply to  Jay

Another Met fan here…I woulda hung up the phone for Harvey; would talk deGrom, but needed either Miller or Terhan to go forward (would have to add Flores or Reynolds in the deal); Matz and Conforto….? I probably would say yes (I’d try seeing if Lagares/Marx would work)-Simmons is THAT good. He’d protect Wright at the corner, be a valuable pivot with either Flores or Herrera, and he’s durable…just pencil him in 8th in your lineup card.

Now…we get to Atlanta for just a second. They seem to be confusing with their methodology the last two seasons as it pertains to Simmons and Hayward. If they were going to sign one based on their defensive prowess, why not sign both? Was it just a matter of service time that they parted ways with Hayward? But still, why trade this guy when he can make these pitching prospects look better than they would with an average defensive SS? Were they that worried about his bat not coming around? Seems confusing, that’s all. A final point on this, in the era of really smart front offices, is the value of defensive efficiency at such a premium that executives are more willing and able to buy out these types of players in their early arbitration years as opposed to the offense first player?

Thomas Scherrer
10 years ago

Damn, I should proofread…

heyward…
Heyward…
HEYWARD…

matz…
Matz…
MATZ…

davels
10 years ago

Physically, Simmons seems most similar to Petrocelli (of the guys on that list)… and he has some power potential, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see him develop into a Rico like batter. Thing is, he still fields like Belanger. And if he hits like Petrocelli, and fields like Belanger… he’s gonna be a high outlier on that chart. And this trade is gonna look very very dumb.

Are OFF/600 and DEF/600 adjusted for park and position? (sorry if its a dumb question… I’m too lazy to look them up)

Tramps Like Us
10 years ago
Reply to  davels

Rico was a 40 homer guy, I believe. That comparison doesn’t seem valid?

Bpdelia
10 years ago
Reply to  davels

True but it’s not that instructive to compare builds across eras imo.

I mean the players are all bigger now.

But yeah he’s much more of a petrocelli.

There’s anon zero chance that Simmons has a 25 hr babip fueled 290/330/500 year at some point and has more war that newcomb ever puts up.

I’ll reserve judgment but it’s a confusing trade.

dom
10 years ago

Anecdotally, it seems like some of the biases against northeast products like Newcomb are going away. The days of not drafting a Trout in the first 20 picks because of his geographical location are probably ending. Interesting that the Braves, known for a good scouting operation and with the best access to the south, appear to be so high on Newcomb.

I get a little confused every time we talk about how speed/defense guys age. It’s understandable that defense would peak along with the peak of “athleticism” in the early 20’s. But then we always hear about how generally, athletic guys age better? This is brought up every time an Ellsbury type is on the market.

Barob111@yahoo.com
10 years ago
Reply to  dom

Yeah, basically, the skill begins waning earlier, but there’s a gentler curve and its usually not as steep a decline as less athletic guys get into the 30s.

Roger
10 years ago
Reply to  dom

Ironically, the Braves’ historical success in scouting pitching at the beginning of their 90s dynasty was all based in the north: Glavine (Mass), Smoltz (Michigan), Avery (Michigan), Pete Smith (Mass).

jacob
10 years ago

typo alert:
the plural conjugations of Simmons is Simmons’ or Simmons’s
Simmonses isn’t correct…

Jetsy Extrano
10 years ago
Reply to  jacob

Thank’s, so halpy

Rick Sanchez
10 years ago
Reply to  jacob
verbs conjugate
10 years ago
Reply to  jacob

Nouns (like young elite defensive shortstops) decline.

cthabeerman
10 years ago
Reply to  jacob

This is false.

-C

Kevin
10 years ago

Dave,

You said “Here are 10 players in baseball history…who have compiled a rating of at least 20 defensive runs above average during the 18-25 portions of their career.”, and presented this list as the reference from which you drew the conclusions of your piece.

I wonder about this sample. For example, is this ALL the players in baseball history (excluding catchers) with at least 20 defensive runs…? Or is this the list of 10 guys who then went on to play through the age of 30 on a semi-regular basis? I find it surprising that not one of these guys suffered a career-ending injury, or general regression, or was overlooked on their club, or was relegated to a bench role due to some other player on their team for the entirety of their 20’s. Or are you suggesting that every player who was a defensively elite player from 18-25, averaging +20 or more defensive runs, is listed there, and then continued to stay healthy and playing baseball until at least the age of 30?

If not, this piece has a huge selection bias to it. Obviously Simmons forecasts better when we ignore the vast number of people who couldn’t hack it any longer.

I apologize for not looking this up myself, but the leaderboards don’t lend themselves to such a study easily, and I don’t have time to dump it into excel and solve it on my own.

ice_hawk
10 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

that’s a good point.

i think overall the braves are betting not only on defensive aging curves but also against Simmons figuring it out with the bat. his offensive numbers have been putrid the last couple years and seemed to be going very much in the wrong direction if you are trying to be bullish about his future. he is near the bottom of the league in hard%, and the only semi useful hitters in that group are ben revere types that can run consistently very high BABIPs. Simmons is near the bottom of the league in BABIP, despite a grounder heavy profile that you would think lend itself to some BABIP fortune. the other thing is that the Braves paid him for only the first two criminally cheap years of his extension. the remainder of the contract is not expensive per se, but if his overall game slips just a little bit, it stops providing surplus value.

Dave
10 years ago

Do defensively oriented guys age differently than offensively oriented guys? I understand that defense declines earlier, but it should decline for both types of players right? Would it decline MORE for someone that plays good defense? It’s not obvious to me this is true.

In other words, compare Simmons to, say, Derek Jeter. Both are/were valuable players at this age. One mostly due to offense, one mostly due to defense. Would we expect Simmons to lose more of his value than Jeter? Would Jeter’s defense decline more slowly?

Kershawshank Redemption
10 years ago

Since the catcher aging curve is so different than any other position, shouldn’t we exclude Sundberg? And if we do exclude him, the future looks bleaker indeed for Simmons and any offensive upside..

Grammar Police
10 years ago

“.. but note that they did indeed decline in defensive value as they gold older…”

james wilson
10 years ago

Is there some rough estimate of an elite shortstop’s effect on the entire pitching staff, vs an average defender? And how good would the pitching prospect need to be to offset that effect upon the season’s other 1,300 innings?

MGL
10 years ago

You probably should have adjusted for regression toward the mean or at least mentioned it.

For example, a “decline” of +24 to +16 is mostly regression toward the mean. It is NOT a decline of 8 runs/year in defensive TALENT. I realize that you are comparing these guys with Simmons actual defensive performance thud far and not his defensive talent, but it is worth mentioning the rile of regression toward the mean in this analysis I think.

Ted Nelson
10 years ago
Reply to  MGL

Not sure regression to the mean is worth more than a cursory mention.

First, it’s speculation on your part that these guys regressed to the mean rather than declining defensively. (Though controlling for the overall defensive career arc in each of their eras could inform us a bit on whether they followed a wider trend of declining defensively as you age or regressed towards the mean while other guys regressed in the opposite direction.)

I think the idea is to assess Simmons’ potential value going forward, not his theoretical defensive ability. If his defense on the field gets worse even though he didn’t decline in talent… he still declines in value to his team.

Rick Sanchez
10 years ago

A cost controlled SS seems like something a team could build around. Worked for the Royals. I mean, a lot of other things went right too, but Esky was there first.

Jordan
10 years ago
Reply to  Rick Sanchez

Wow Royals fans are turning into the new Giants fans, somehow managing to turn every conversation/article into something about the Royals.

pft
10 years ago

Teams just don’t attach that much value to defense as they do offense, especially for teams in which the incremental value of a win is very low like the Braves. Offense is the scarcer commodity, so is valued at a premium.

I would guess the Price equation is probably something like 6 million x WARoff + 1 million x WARdef. If so, Simmons will be paid more than his value the rest of the way under his present contract.

Jon Smith
10 years ago
Reply to  pft

Remember that defensive whiz who moved with the grace of a gazelle at shortstop in the early to mid 90s known as Jeff Blauser? No wonder Maddux; Glavine; Smoltz & Avery had so much success! #defense #inbaseball #overated

Jon Smith
10 years ago
Reply to  pft

Remember perhaps the most overrated defensive shortstop in History in Derrick Jeter & a defensive centerfielder who left plenty to be desired in Bernie Williams playing on the same Yankees team? How”d that team do? Oh yea a dynasty! #defense #inbaseball #overated

Ted Nelson
10 years ago
Reply to  pft

There may be a nugget of truth in what you’re saying, but you are exaggerating to such an extent that it’s hard to take you seriously.

Offense gets compensated 6:1 compared to defense… does that sound reasonable to you? (This is testable, by the way.)

That you have to go back 50 years just to find 9 comparable defensive players to Simmons really brings into question your scarcity argument…

Bret Levine
10 years ago

Would have chosen a cluster analysis using DEF as one of the variables. Andrelton Simmons might be a clustered into an even more unique latent class rather than just the top defense players of their times.

Michael
10 years ago

I wonder what the Upton and Uggla collapses have done to the front office psyche. Go back to 2014, the team is 79-83 with a lot of money being spent on players with limited or even negative value. The Brave don’t have that much financial flexibility. Maybe they felt the run that ended in 2013 was not sustainable, and they needed to rid themselves of salary.

I'MSsmarter
10 years ago

In 2 years this will be known as the Newcombe trade

steveneydie
10 years ago

i believe the plural is andreltons simmons

Bobby Bonilla
10 years ago

I wonder if this effect is just regular regression to the mean, and that they did so well in the first place was just that they were playing above their talent level, or if it’s a statistical artifact.

Binyamin Koretz
10 years ago

I can’t believe the Braves fans whining about years of anguish. Didn’t they win the division 14 out of 15 years not long ago?

Ted Nelson
10 years ago

I’m skeptical of using the mean to show how likely Simmons is to improve. The offensive improvement you’re capturing in the mean is far from uniform across the players you’re looking at. In fact, it looks like it comes entirely from 3 of the players. Just eye-balling the numbers, it looks like 3 of the players improved significantly on offense (Vizquel, Sundberg, and Petrocelli), while 6 of the players stayed the same or got worse offensively. This alone might suggest that Simmons is unlikely to improve on offense (2/3s of the players did not improve). However, I’d probably want to look into recent examples and guys with similar offensive profiles. I mean, Andruw Jones was a power-hitting CF… how informative is his career arc for Simmons? How instructive are guys doing this 50 years ago when training methods were considerably different?

I’m also not really sure what the Braves strategy is, but it certainly seems like it may involve purposefully tanking… It’s not totally clear to me that they’re trying to lose, but possible.

Keith
10 years ago

Honestly, I don’t have the opportunity to delve into this as deeply as others right now. However, my cursory glance has me wanting to be the contrarian.

Even with his all-world defense, 3.5 WAR/600 isn’t exactly a phenomenal number. Erick Aybar is at 2.5 WAR/600 for his career. Yeah, he’s much older, but he also put up 4.3 WAR himself in 2014. It’s only 2.5 in the past 5 seasons (including 2 at 1.5 or less), but he has some ability himself. We’re essentially asking Newcomb to be a 2.5-win pitcher over 6-7 years, and that’s before counting that quite a few of those defense-first players fell off 0.5-1.0 WAR themselves, according to those charts.

Far be it from me to just come out and say Simmons WILL be bad, or that there isn’t potential for failure on ATL’s part. Still, I think it’s a reasonable approach to not want an offensive black hole as much as it is to not want a defensive one. Sure, we can say defense doesn’t slump (unless you’re Ryan Zimmerman), but we can also say it won’t streak to the positive and carry a team for a week or two (something Daniel Murphy showed can be REALLY valuable, at the right time).

So, in ATL’s trading, I don’t think it was wholly insane for them to go get someone closer to an average two-way player (Aybar), while continuing to attempt to gather the young pitching they seem to be aiming for. Now, do I trust Newcomb? Not unless he cuts 1-2 BB/9 off without a serious strikeout dip next to it, but he can certainly be something worth comparing to 2.5-3.5 wins/season to replace Simmons.

FoozFan
10 years ago

Excellent analysis well worth bookmarking for future use.

shthar
10 years ago

Come back Rey Ordóñez!