How You Defined an Ace
A week ago, I thought we’d try something fun. Not everything I think is going to be fun actually turns out to be fun, but this one generated some pretty good feedback. Starting from the position that it’s impossible to arrive at a consensus definition of “ace,” given that it’s a subjective term applied to different pitchers by different people, I tried to gather some information from the community so we could see what you all seem to believe. I gave you the names of 20 current starting pitchers, and for each I asked a simple yes-or-no question — is the pitcher an ace? Thousands of you took the time to participate in the project, for almost literally no payoff.
Whatever payoff there is is to follow. I’ve collected all the voting results, and I think there’s a good amount to be learned. The data is always the best part, and though we still don’t have a word-by-word definition for an ace, it appears that there are some rules, of varying importance. Spoiler alert: the community agrees that Clayton Kershaw is an ace, as he got a “yes” vote in 99.3% of polls. He was included mostly as a test, because I’m always curious how many people are actively trolling any polling project I try to run. They’re always out there. And while 0.7% of voters is a small percentage, in this case that’s 44 people. That’s 44 original thinkers! I’m glad you guys found a means to brighten your day.
So, never trust a small fraction of the community. Trust the entirety of the community! I think that’s how this is supposed to work.
Real quick, before we get to the voting results, we can take a glance at the voting totals. This wasn’t a team-oriented poll post — you’d think that each pitcher would end up with a more or less identical number of votes. And though the ultimate distribution wasn’t insane, an uneven distribution still existed, and…
…the Padres guy finished last, of course. So Padres.
But this is the thing you care about:
I decided in the original post that a pitcher would qualify as an ace if he simply got at least one more than half the vote. So while some pitchers are more inarguably ace-y than others, by this method, we’ve ended up with 10 of 20 pitchers getting the label. The line gets drawn right between Stephen Strasburg (57%) and Johnny Cueto (41%), with Noah Syndergaard almost but not quite tied with Cueto. Remember, this is based on a lot of votes, and I’m sure there are people among you who, say, think Syndergaard is an ace, but disagree on Strasburg. Those people are outnumbered! Which is what’s important, for these purposes, even though by definition no one can be wrong.
In that post, I didn’t include every good starting pitcher in baseball. That would’ve probably resulted in too many polls, and the community would’ve gotten exhausted. But based on the voting results for the selection of pitchers, I think the community would say there are about 20 aces in the game today. There are the above pitchers, and I’m guessing there are David Price, Chris Sale, Max Scherzer, Corey Kluber, Zack Greinke, Jake Arrieta, Madison Bumgarner, Felix Hernandez, Matt Harvey, and Cole Hamels. Felix might be close to the line, after last season, and I’m not totally sure what the community would say about Jon Lester and Masahiro Tanaka. But the number is near to 20. Close to an ace per team, but still short.
There’s no number of regressions you could run to get to a statistical definition of “ace.” There’s no cutoff, no criteria, no number of 5-WAR seasons. That’s not how people operate, because most people have a feeling about a pitcher before they look at his playing history. It’s about the impression, the perception, and while there will be a close relationship between how a pitcher is perceived and how good he has been, it doesn’t mean there’s an equation to unlock. Maybe that’s sort of disappointing, but you can’t expect opinion polling to strictly obey any math. All we can really look for are clues.
To be honest, I was surprised by the community’s response to Strasburg. He just finished strong, but he had a pretty bad first half, and Strasburg has long suffered from a perception problem, at least in certain circles. There are people around the game who don’t think Strasburg is tough enough, and he’s also gone down the Tommy John road, so he fought an early rep for fragility. I thought the community might reflect those feelings a little more, but instead he exceeded the ace threshold, probably owing to his career 10.4 K/9. I think Strasburg was carried by his stuff — he hasn’t pitched to his ceiling, but his stuff is so good even missing his ceiling means he’s an excellent starter. Notably, Strasburg was not the ace of his own team last year.
And that’s interesting, because otherwise the community seems to value being The Guy. There’s a certain segment of the population here that believes an ace ought to also be the staff ace. The belief is that a pitcher can’t really be an ace if he’s overshadowed in his own rotation. I think the best example would be Sonny Gray (72%) vs. Jose Quintana (8%). Gray and Quintana have been awful similar the past season or two, but Gray has been the No. 1 in Oakland, while Quintana has been pitching behind Sale. That’s not the only factor — Quintana just in general is incredibly underrated — but Quintana here is penalized in part because of Sale being better. The same thing is also a contributing factor for Carlos Carrasco’s results (27%) and Syndergaard’s results (41%). The Indians and Mets have had too many good pitchers, so it’s been tougher for the talent to stand out individually.
Something else that’s pretty clear: once ace-hood is earned, it can be lost faster through under-performance than through injury. A few years ago Justin Verlander would’ve been an undisputed ace. He’s lost that, because he hasn’t pitched well enough. To some extent, the same is true of Cueto. Yet, Adam Wainwright came in at 72%, even though last year he started four times. Yu Darvish came in at 77%, even though last year he started zero times. And Jose Fernandez came in at 91%, even though he’s started 19 games in two seasons. Aces seem to stay aces until they prove they’re not aces on the field. When injured, they get the benefit of the doubt. Presumably not forever, but for a year or two, at least.
Dallas Keuchel goes to show that an ace need not be overpowering. Chris Archer and Gerrit Cole go to show that an ace label can be earned with one really strong season. As the latter two go, Garrett Richards demonstrates that label can be a fleeting one. It’s like an ace-label probationary period. I suspect what Syndergaard shows, beyond how it gets weird when there are other great starters on the team, is that people want to see an ace over a full season, and not just most of one. Now, Jose Fernandez hasn’t reached 30 starts in a season himself, but he has started 47 games overall. I’m guessing Syndergaard was the toughest choice for most people, and it wouldn’t be surprising at all if a year from now his support more than doubled.
That’s what I have for now, and I welcome any further input in the comments. Based on your responses, it looks like there are roughly 20 ace starters in the game today. The names shift around over time, but due more to under-performance than to injury. And it appears to help a great deal to be a team’s No. 1, even holding a pitcher’s performance constant. In closing, maybe we need to write more articles about Jose Quintana. Jose Quintana is really good.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.


Staff ace doesn’t explain Gray. If Gray, then why not Ross, Cueto, or Richards? Please give me some insight Gray voters.
I’m not a gray Voter, but would suspect that the votes for him are as a result of him being in a smaller market, on a non-contending team. He’s truly the ‘guy’ in Oakland. He also pitched really well down the stretch last season, which puts his success at the forefront of fans’ memories of him. The fact that Gray was a first rounder coming out of college baseball powerhouse Vanderbilt is important as well. Nonetheless, I agree with you 100% that others should be considered more strongly along with or more than Gray.
Well, also, before last year all the A’s fans knew with SONNY GRAY was WINNING. From the moment he came up in 2013, and pitched down the stretch of a back-to-back AL West Championship run as a true rookie, starting Game 2 of the ALDS and outpitching the best SP of that stretch, Justin Verlander, then starting Game 5 of the 2013 ALDS….
Follow that up with the 2014 season, Gray was great in his first full season, and again, came up huge for Oakland, pitching a Complete Game Shut-Out in Game 162 to clinch the Oakland A’s third consecutive playoff birth on the last game of the season. So, last year was his first year on a “non-contending team,” and all he did was mess around and put himself in the Cy Young race as a 25 year old.
I would suspect post-season experience gives him the edge there.
I’m not saying that 13.0 innings of experience means he is better than Ross, but in my mind, that was my initial thought. He led a team that held the best record in baseball for a majority of the season in 2014. It just sort of adds credibility. It shouldn’t, but if I’m being honest, that was my initial thought.
Gray is definitely the elephant in the room on this list, a 13.2 K-BB% last year is not ace material.
But that’s where it gets hairy. Roy Halladay for his career had a 13.5 K-BB%. I would say he was an ace.
Different era. The two have comparable GB%, but Halladay has career 78 xFIP- to Gray’s 89.
I don’t think it’s wise to set single, arbitrary cutoffs for “an ace MUST hit this metric”. For any metric you choose, you can find a handful of pitchers that would generally be considered an ace that didn’t meet that criterion, and many who did hit the criterion that wouldn’t be considered aces.
Or, stated differently, there is no metric (or combination of metrics) that will include EXACTLY everyone that you would want and not exclude ANY that you consider aces. It’s good to have loose guidelines, but litmus tests, not so much.
Honestly, I’m not sure how Cueto got such a low vote, but I will say that Gray has a career ERA of 2.88 and those three guys are 3.57, 3.30, and 3.65 respectively. While of course ERA is a very incomplete stat, I think perceptions of pitchers are created largely by what actually happens in their games, whether or not they have control over it (which of course we don’t really know to what extent they do).
Cueto suffered from recency bias; his number would have been MUCH higher before his poor half-season in KC.
(Which, to be fair, that half-season DID happen and should be a factor, it just may be weighed too heavily against his career as a whole.)
Gray has thrown at least 208 innings in each of the last two seasons. 33-20 career win-loss record. Ross has never thrown 200 innings in a season. Averaged less than 6 innings per start last year. Sub-.500 record each year of his career.
As far as Cueto goes, it’s probably a combination of his poor 2nd half and the fact that he always seems to outperform his peripherals. Could compare him to guys like Matt Cain and Jered Weaver. Great for awhile, but when the wheels fall off, it isn’t pretty. His results are certainly ace-like over the last 4-5 years though.
True, though Win-Loss record has minuscule importance in the way we evaluate pitchers. Especially at Fangraphs, just looking at something such as WAR tells you Ross had 4.4 WAR last year. Gray, had a WAR of 3.5. I understand your argument, though length of start in today’s super bullpen era is not very significant. Ross not going as far into starts is not as significant today because of the emergence of super bullpens.
I disagree. In the Fangraphs piece about deciding whether or not to pull a starter the third time through the order, managers clearly preferred to be able to rest bullpens to be able to use the best relievers in future games. That’s why pitching around 200 innings (apparently exempting injury) seems to be a pre-requisite for being an Ace.
IP/start has a direct correlation to win-loss record though. Most teams only have 2-3 above average bullpen arms to make up those super pens. Those pitchers usually average about 65-70 innings per year. If your “ace” fails to go more than six innings regularly, it taxes the bullpen and leaves the long relievers and 6th innings guys to cover more often for the back end of the rotation. Definitely has a snowball effect.
Why do you think that Ian Kennedy just got a fat contract from a successful mid-market team? Those extra innings make a difference.
Here’s what I posted in the comments of the initial survey:
If you look at FIP, there isn’t much to separate Gray from Quintana, yet in ERA there is a substantial gap between them. ERA is certainly flawed yet it is also an actual rather than a theoretical result. Gray’s advantage cannot be attributed to his team’s defense (dreadful in ’15, good in ’14, and average in ’13), although some of it is attributable to the Coliseum. What stands out is that Gray ranks ninth among qualified pitchers over the last three seasons in lowest hard hit percentage allowed. Cueto is very similar and presumably would have earned the “ace” label if not for the perception that he lost his mojo in 2015. Richards is similar as well, but more of a poor man’s version of Gray.
Just a thought to explain the difference. Gray has been really good at inducing mostly medium contact ground balls and the A’s infielders (except Semien) have been roughly league average at converting expected outs into outs. Is Gray’s ERA is getting Jetered?
Tyson Ross is vastly underrated and playing on a losing Padres team won’t help. Even if he gets traded, he’ll likely be in the shadow of an ace. Nonetheless, playing in a bigger market would seemingly help his popularity within Baseball.
This is why, I believe, Ross got fewer total votes. I voted for everyone, but some people probably voted only for pitchers they “know” — either they follow or have seen pitch a couple of times.
Regarding S. Gray being basically the same as Quintana, I would note that it is pretty obvious why one was chosen an ace and one was not. Though everyone likes the saber-metrics, there are key thresholds that fundamentally are still important to people in their perception of what dominance must look like.
1) Quintana always has an ERA in the mid-3s. It looks pedestrian. Sonny Gray is under 3.00 for his career, which is a psychologically important barrier for an ace I bet.
2) Quintana always has a WHIP in the mid 1.2s. It looks pedestrian. Sonny Gray is 1.13 for his career. I bet 1.20 is a psychologically important barrier for an ace.
3) Becoming less important by the day, but Quintana has never even won double digit games in a season and is usually something like 9-10. It looks pedestrian. Sonny Gray has been 14-10, 14-7: that feels like what an ace’s numbers should be. That isn’t held against people all the time, but you have to wow in other areas. Quintana doesn’t wow in any of these traditional areas so, he is not perceived as an ace, or even close, by most people.
Note as well that just because something is not yet quantifiable doesn’t mean that it is nonexistent. Wins and ERA are poor measures of a pitcher’s true talent, sure, but when two players with similar peripherals have consistently divergent results it is entirely possible (maybe even likely) that there is something about their performance itself that is different, that we’ve been unable to isolate.
Add in a few other perception items:
4) He joined a rotation that already had a clear ace (Sale)
5) When he first started for the White Sox, he was a minor league free agent filling in for the disabled/crappy John Danks, so the expectation level was about zero.
6) Right about the time that Quintana was starting to establish that he was a front of the rotation starter, the White Sox drafted Rodon, whose pedigree has baseball fans waiting for him to be the secondary “ace” behind Sale.
I agree that that makes a really good pitcher fly under the radar. But I think “aces” don’t get hindered by that. But I think if he went out and put up a 15-9 season with 2.90 ERA, 1.11 WHIP and 200 Ks, people would immediately notice him and start calling him an ace. Things like sub 3 ERA, sub 1.2 WHIP, and 200+ K’s get you noticed immediately by everyone as elite.
Why are you quoting a W/L record to decide who is good? Jaysus, I thought we were at fangraphs. Chris Sale was 11-14 three years ago and 13-11 last year. The White Sox have been really bad, why would Quintana and Sale be punished for that?
I’m not deciding who is good, I’m describing part of the psychology of how people view aces. I think when people think of an ACE they think of not only a very good pitcher but someone who is expected to win: they are that good. Yes, luck can kill anyone in extreme cases, and people are willing to look past W/L even for aces if they really wow in other statistical areas (like Sale, or King Felix when he won Cy Young, etc). But if your win/loss looks pedestrian, and your ratios look pedestrian, most people are not going to declare you an ace by looking deep into FIP or SwStrike% or whatever. To me, Sale is clearly an ace. I don’t see Quintana as being one (and I don’t see them being as good as Thor, Harvey, deGrom)
I’m just not sure what is pedestrian about Quintana’s ratio’s or metrics. There’s really nothing pedestrian about them.
It’s not as if FIP is some tough to find or calculate value; it’s also not exactly a secret.
Quintana’s FIP the past two years is just under 3. His WAR is 9.9. There’s really nothing pedestrian about either of those, IMO.
I understand the psychological argument you are making, but to argue that Thor/Harvey and Degrom are better than Quintana despite countless peripherals to the contrary seems more hype related, and less results oriented.
I should change that to “clearly better” than Quintana. I would argue all three are on par with him if they can stay healthy and take the ball every fifth day.
FIP isn’t what actually happened. Quintana’s actual results the last two seasons have been above average but hardly elite. Furthermore, FIP pretends that home run rates are always true talent when the reality is that Quintana has been fortunate in HF/FB% the last two seasons, which offsets the effect of the White Sox’s abysmal defense to some degree. Jose Quintana is very valuable starting pitcher yet he is clearly not an ace.
Huh? You might want to check those peripherals again because they do not favor Quintana. Even in FIP, which I contend overrates Quintana, Jose finished well behind DeGrom, far behind Harvey, and just ahead of Syndergaard. In xFIP, all three of them crush Quintana.
How far a pitcher goes in a start is very heavily influenced by team defense, quality of the bullpen, and his teams ability to score in close game. All factors out of the pitchers control AND all factors the Padres were bad at last season. In truth once you factor in the team behind the player You have to move ROSS much higher on this list! He has more to overcome to be great!
How can a comment with this sentence:
“Quintana doesn’t wow in any of these traditional areas so, he is not perceived as an ace, or even close, by most people.”
have 10 upvotes? It’s truly baffling. If you don’t think Quintana is “even close” to an ace, you must not be paying much attention. If you don’t think a top 10 WAR over the past two years for a starter isn’t close to an ace maybe you need to head over to the ESPN comments section.
One guy pitches in the a top 3 pitchers park in baseball, the other pitches in a top 3 hitters park in baseball; do you realize how many extra outs you get as a pitcher in the Colliseum compared to the Cell?
Citing wins and losses when Quintana has been historically unlucky is also just absurd.
Also, Quintana’s ERA the past two year has been 3.36 and 3.32… I’m not quite sure how that’s “mid-3’s.”
Loosely speaking, bottom/middle/upper thirds could be thought of as low/mid/high 3’s, so 3.00-3.33 could be thought of as “low 3’s”, 3.34-3.66 as “mid 3’s”, and 3.67-3.99 as “high 3’s”.
It’s such a minor thing to pick a nit over whether 3.36 is “low” or “mid” 3’s really.
You’re right that wins and losses are a super poor metric to evaluate any pitcher and their qualifications for “acehood”. Still, a lot of traditional or old-guard fans still attach some importance to them (rightly or wrongly).
Fair enough.
I was probably nit-picking there which was probably caused by the W/L comment.
The White Sox have been abysmal; judging their arms based on W/L makes even less sense than typical.
Here’s an article on the incredible amount of bad luck Quintana has experienced:
http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/jose-quintanas-bad-luck-hasnt-been-seen-dead-ball-era
I also tend to give Quintana extra credit for suffering through a 90 game stretch of horrendous luck and sticking with the pitcher he is and not getting outside of his box.
He’s talking about perception. He’s not saying that he actually thinks that Wins and Losses are the correct way to measure performance.
fWAR is calculated based on FIP, which overrates Quintana’s actual performance.
As far as W/L record goes (note: I think W/L is generally meaningless, unless you’re 24-0 or something) 20 is the official “Ace” standard, anywhere between 16-19 is pretty good, an acceptable down year for an ace unless they led the league; 10-15 is just you were a pitcher and you pitched all year. That doesn’t explain where Quintana ranks of course, he’s just the master of lacking team support from the beloved and terrible offensive White Sox.
Funny thing is, I don’t see Madison Bumgarners name anywhere on this article(except being mentioned for not being an ace). He’s been just as durable, more clutch(the idea is the ACE shouldn’t choke in the playoffs, kershaw) and has 3x as many rings. So please explain how he’s left off?
You misread it: he is listed as being one of the league’s other obvious aces not included in this poll
Apparently I did misread it then…
Hey, it happens. Sometimes we’re in such a rush to register our consternation that we don’t bother reading the article(s) very closely… =)
Or we’re in such a hurry to post our comment that we don’t proofread until after posting, and then we criticize FanGraphs for not offering an Edit button… =)
It brings me great pleasure to point out that the Dodgers have 0 rings with Kershaw (or anyone else for a loooong time), so Bumgarner actually has infinitely more rings than Kershaw, not 3x.
#evenyear (I know it’s absurd, but I can’t help myself)
Clay Bellinger has infinitely more rings than Ernie Banks.
What’s your point?
Uh, zero times infinity equals zero, while three minus zero equals three. So Bumgarner has three more rings than Kershaw. But as JPo points out above, this line of thinking is a non-starter.
Madison Bumgarner does not have 3x as many rings as Clayton Kershaw.
Definitely agree that being the #1 on your team is a factor – maybe because I associate the word ‘ace’ with the playing card and not the incredibly talented fighter pilot. That said, for me it’s not a hard-and-fast rule and there is some subjectivity. Greinke was for-sure an ace for me last year despite being the #2 on his team.
For me I think I’d define it as top-15 ish (up to 20 max) pitchers in baseball with some flexibility to switch out pitchers from the back half of that group if they’re not their teams’ #1s, which is why I’d give a vote to someone like Gray but not Strasburg or Lester
Setting qualifiers of Swinging strikerate > 9%, K%>20%, BB%<8% and ERA<4 gives 32 guys(min 100 IP). Of these 32 Buchholz and Iwakuma have the health question, Syndergaard, Odorizzi, Salazar ,Kazmir, Hammel, Wacha and Carlos Martinez have the career track record question. King Felix and Verlander are former aces with performance decline and the rest seem to be solid aces.( Carrasco could be included in the performance questions group, and I think Lester and Tanaka are aces). Seems like a good enough objective cutoff.
* I also feel Cueto is an ace( just a half season of bad performance) and Quintana is really underrated.
Yeah, someone has to explain to me how deGrom, Harvey, and Thor are all “ace” or close to “ace”, but Quintana–who is at least as good as, and is arguably better than, all of them–is not an ace.
I get the high vote total for Thor, as I think he’s probably the best pitcher on that team, but the number for deGram seems way high if having other elite pitchers on your team is a disqualifying factor.
Not criticizing any of the incredible Mets pitchers, just noting a curious result.
We’re talking some pretty small samples– since Quintana, Harvey and deGrom are all roughly the same age and Syndergaard is much younger, lets leave out the latter.
In terms of career track record, Quintana has roughly the IP of Harvey and deGrom combined, so lets compare Quintana to an amalgam of deGrom and Harvey:
deGarvey 758 IP 20.9 fWAR
Quinatana 743 IP 15.0 fWAR
deGarvey 20.7% K-BB 71 ERA- 70 FIP- 78 xFIP-
Quinatana 13.1% K-BB 86 ERA- 84 FIP- 94 xFIP-
As far as I’m concerned, the Mets’ starters are highly popular largely as a result of them being classic power pitchers who throw in the mid to upper nineties. This is significant, especially in because pitchers are throwing harder than ever.
It is the expectation of domination.
Instead of comparing to the Mets’ young power pitchers, try comparing him to other contact pitchers. As pointed out above, Quintana gets results but Ace-hood isn’t just about results. Expectations matter.
Getting the outs is the goal but making it look easy, inevitable, is what brings the Ace tag. Style points.
Kershaw on the mound? You expect a win regardless of team or opposing pitcher.
Quintana? You expect him to hold his own but… a sure thing?
I think it’s a confluence of factors that has the Mets dudes outperforming Quintana in terms of perception:
1. Syndergaard and deGrom both pitched well in the playoffs (and deGrom threw a dominant inning in the All Star game), giving non- Mets fans a chance to see them dominate. Quintana has had no such luck.
2. Syndergaard & deGrom (& Harvey & Wheeler & Matz) all throw incredibly hard, which is part of the wow factor with the Mets staff. Quintana’s pure stuff doesn’t jump out at you in the same way, altho the results are there.
3. Syndergaard has major prospect pedigree, and altho deGrom came out of nowhere he won Rookie of the Year, so more casual fans have been told that they’re really good for some time. Quintana was cut by his first team and has never gotten much hype either way.
4. Altho deGrom seems to play second fiddle to Harvey, he established himself during the year that Harvey was out with TJS, which allowed him to emerge as staff ace without the media attention on Harvey.
5. Long hair and fun nicknames
Quintana is clearly worse than all of them, not better.
I have seen many Mets games and those pitchers are very good but not yet aces! The team behind them made them better! In the second half last season anyone could have won games pitching for the Mets! Anyone!
If I could do the vote over, I would say “No” to Justin Verlander. I was thinking that past ace-hood qualified him for my “yes” vote, but that was just my emotion, remembering how good he was a few years ago.
For me guys like Carrasco and Thor are very close to being an ACE, but I just need to see another half season or so of dominance before I’d consider them for acehood.
Syndergaard puts up one 3.5 win season, and is the third best pitcher on his team. 41% ace
Quintana averages 4.5 wins each of the last three seasons, and is the second best pitcher on his team. 8% ace
This is a little disingenuous because Syndergaard put up that 3.5 WAR in 2/3 of a season. I’m not saying the results are fair — I voted yes on Carrasco and Quintana both, who I think are terribly underrated — but let’s not cherry pick a counting stat without at least mentioning that on a rate basis Syndergaard largely outperformed Quintana last year.
How did he outperform him?
WAR is a cumulative stat – you are correct there – but Syndergaard averaged .022 WAR per/IP. Quintana averaged .023 WAR per/IP.
Sorry Thor averaged .020 WAR/IP
Quintana was .023/IP
Quintana beat him overall and beat him in rate.
Well, as pointed out by RF, if you extend Syndergaard’s 2015 performance to a full season (which is not something that can be safely assumed), his performance would be roughly equal to Quintana’s 2015. I may have cherry-picked, but the longer view doesn’t show a different result.
I’m not trying to make a definitive case about who is better, but the differences in the perception of those two are striking — I’m making a point that “ace” seems to have MUCH more to do with hype/profile than it does with actual performance. When rationalizing why Quintana isn’t considered an “ace,” it seems many say that a guy has to “earn” it over an extended period of time or to be “THE guy” on the staff, but Syndergaard has done less “earning it” and is even less “the guy” on his staff than is Quintana, but is considered substantially more like an ace.
I’m just pointing out an inconsistency in the subjective and “aesthetic” categories that seem to be used to justify arguments that don’t agree with the purely logical and performance-driven arguments. I have no problem with the aesthetic argument, but I think part of the purpose of this piece is to attempt to define it, and that doesn’t work if there are inconsistencies.
Also, sorry for the “overuse” of quotation marks.
It can all be explained by “hype”. I think you might be disappointed to realize that it’s a lot less about the numbers than many would like it to be.
Syndergaard has a nickname and played on a team that went to the WS.
You couldn’t avoid hearing Fernandez’ and Strasburg’s names before and after they made their debuts.
Gray was the #1 starter for the A’s playoff team as a rookie.
Archer is harder to explain, but pitched for a playoff team the year after he finished 3rd in ROY voting.
Yeah, that’s pretty much what I was (poorly) trying to get at.
Effing Quintana…that creep can roll
Love this. Bless their hearts.
Re: Quintana
I think Quintana suffers from a perception, but to the contrary of Stasberg. Quintana was flat out RELEASED by the Yankees as a 21 year old lefty. The White Sox picked him up, and within 3 months he was a 1.6 WAR pitcher in 22 starts. I remember watching Rookie Quintana and just waiting for the implosion; his stuff didn’t impress, and it was hard to accept that a MLB team would flat out release a 21 year old lefty starter who was capable of being not only a Major Leaguer, but a damn good one.
Fast forward 3 years, and Quintana has improved every single season. What a blunder by the Yankees for one, and what a find by the White Sox. I am sure Don Cooper and Herm Schneider deserve some of the credit for Quintana’s progression, but Quintana is underrated for the simple fact that the guy was never even on prospect radars… The Yankees didn’t even think he could be a MLB reliever. That’s quite the difference in evaluation. Even the lead scout who found Quintana for the Sox was on record saying he COULD BE a #3/#4 starter at best. The guy has just gotten better and better.
Lastly, he has been one of the more unlucky pitchers in baseball history, and that’s not a stretch. His W/L record, which is irrelevant but at least 50% of the baseball community still think it matters, and his no decisions are on another level from anyone else. He’s pitched in front of the worst defense in baseball, which has inflated his pitch counts, harmed his ERA, and limited the duration of his outings. This further decreases the perception of his value, because he’s not “winning.”
Having had the pleasure to watch over 100 Quintana starts over the past two years, I can say he’s not only an ace, he’s a damn good one. He’s reliable, and ALWAYS keeps his team in the ball game. It has been painful watching him suffer the fate he has in the luck category, but the guy doesn’t let him get down.
Amazing that the Yankees released the kid.
“watch over 100 Quintana starts over the past two years”
Damn his arm must be about to fall off. Easily the league leader in starts though I would assume.
haha, meant the past four years.
50 starts a year? Pffffft.
Ach ran out of time today but wanted to get this in while the topic was still fresh.
My list of Aces, statistically….
EDIT: this is not a complete list. But these are the guys I’ve calculated so far that I’d consider clear aces…
Last 2yrs as SP:
(WAR = average of fipWAR and ra9WAR)
Kershaw: 60gs, 7.2ip/gs, 54era-, 51fip-, 8.6war/32gs
Arrieta: 58gs, 6.7ip/gs, 55era-, 60fip-, 7.3war/32gs
Price: 66gs, 7.1ip/gs, 74era-, 71fip-, 5.8war/32gs
Keuchel: 62gs, 7.0ip/gs, 68era-, 77fip-, 5.9war/32gs
Wainwright: 36gs, 7.0ip/gs, 63era-, 76fip-, 6.0war/32gs
Kluber: 66gs, 6.9ip/gs, 75era-, 68fip-, 5.9war/32gs
Sale: 57gs, 6.7ip/gs, 71era-, 66fip-, 6.1war/32gs
Greinke: 64gs, 6.6ip/gs, 60era-, 76fip-, 6.2war/32gs
Scherzer: 66gs, 6.8ip/gs, 76era-, 74fip-, 5.7war/32gs
There will likely be a few more to add to that list.
So far there are a number of borderline guys that I’m not quite sure I’d call aces at this point – all of Hernandez, Lester, and Cueto come in around 5.0war/32gs over the last 2yrs. If they do qualify as aces (I’m not sure yet if they do or not for me) then they’re right at the cutoff line.
I’m assuming that there will be approximately 10-15 clear aces on my list in the end. Now that I think of it that 5.0 average war/32gs level is probably going to be a perfect cutoff point.
I’m surprised by the strength of the consensus on Keuchel. I don’t have very strong feelings *against* him as an ace, but I think last season has really skewed perception of him. It really is his only ace-caliber season, by most metrics.
Pre-2014: 217 IP 0.9 WAR -0.1 RA9-WAR 5.04 ERA 4.71 FIP 4.27 SIERA
Not a good pitcher.
2014: 200 IP 3.8 WAR 4.9 RA9-WAR 2.93 ERA 3.21 FIP 3.11 SIERA
Very good pitcher, but a fringe case for an ace I would think.
2015: 232 IP 6.1 WAR 8.1 RA9-WAR 2.48 ERA 2.91 FIP 2.84 SIERA
Inarguable ace performance.
To be fair, what happened most recently does matter most and both ZIPS (4.5) and Steamer (4.8) project him to be an ace going forward. But again, given the lack of previous track record and lack of conventionally dazzling stuff, I’m just surprised at the strength of the consensus here.
Would it really be that surprising if he put up 2014 numbers this year, or slightly worse? Intuitively, I would think an ace is someone you’d be surprised to see put up e.g. only 3 WAR (assuming health). I don’t know of Keuchel is over that bar for me.
Agree about Keuchel. His lack of high-octane stuff doesn’t disqualify him, but his reliance on pinpoint accuracy along with a newly unhittable slider are skills that aren’t easily repeatable…and given his lack of pedigree, there are still some question marks – he needs one more excellent year to fully warrant the ace label.
How do you feel about Gerrit Cole, who polled 2% less than Keuchel, and who has put up more than 3 WAR exactly once in his career?
Yeah, the cole as an ace thing is the only result that blew my mind.
I’m not surprised Cole did that well in the poll. He’s the prototypical big, hard-throwing righty who looks the part, and with what he did last year at age 25 a couple of years after being drafted 1-1 I’m sure many people feel he’s already made the leap to being an “ace”. This might also explain why Syndegaard polled as well as Cueto.
I also think the “projectability” thing hurts Quintana in a way. It seems safe to say he’s already done about as much improvement over the last 4-5 years as anyone could expect of a pitcher.
I wasn’t exactly trying to knock Cole. I was just trying to bring up the lack of track record citing for Keuchel could be applied to most of the pitchers who received 70-85% of the vote.
If you don’t like Keuchel because his stuff is not there, that is fine. If you think he will regress from 2015, that is probably a really safe bet. I wonder how many Cy-Young pitchers negatively regress the following year, I’d guess a lot. But I do think it is unfair to look at the pitchers that were called “Aces” and single out Keuchel for lack of track record.
The topic is really interesting because it does shine a light on how fans hand out the title “Ace”. I would bet that if Keuchel threw 95 with the exact same stats, he would have polled higher. Now I don’t know if it is right or wrong to define an ace by traditional ‘stuff’, but we probably all agree that he pitches better than his stuff may lead you to believe. I bet Lloyd McClendon may have a different view of Keuchel today than he did in 2014. http://www.rantsports.com/mlb/2014/05/25/seattle-mariners-lloyd-mcclendons-post-game-comments-on-houston-astros-dallas-keuchel-downright-idiotic/