If You Vote for Vlad, You Have to Vote for Walker
If you’re an avid FanGraphs reader, you might remember a piece I wrote January in which I wondered whether Vladimir Guerrero had the credentials of a Hall of Famer. The verdict? He does. As an inductee, he wouldn’t have the most impressive resume in the Hall, but he’d belong — and, according to the first 44 ballots collected by Ryan Thibodaux by way of his BBHOF Tracker, it appears as though the voters agree:
| Player | Vote% |
|---|---|
| Jeff Bagwell | 89% |
| Tim Raines | 87% |
| Ivan Rodriguez | 81% |
| Vladimir Guerrero | 74% |
| Trevor Hoffman | 74% |
| Barry Bonds | 70% |
| Roger Clemens | 70% |
| Edgar Martinez | 66% |
| Mike Mussina | 62% |
| Curt Schilling | 51% |
| Manny Ramirez | 43% |
| Lee Smith | 36% |
| Larry Walker | 19% |
| Jeff Kent | 17% |
| Fred McGriff | 15% |
| Jorge Posada | 11% |
| Sammy Sosa | 11% |
| Billy Wagner | 9% |
| Gary Sheffield | 6% |
At 74%, Guerrero is right on the threshold for induction (which requires a candidate is named on 75% of ballots). That means that even if he isn’t selected this year Guerrero will almost certainly gain entry to the Hall next year. Which is great. Guerrero was a fantastic player. He’s deserving.
Larry Walker was also a great player, though. In most important ways, he was a superior one. And he’s received enough votes on previous Hall of Fame ballots to return for a seventh year. Like the previous six years, however, Walker is unlikely to be enshrined in Cooperstown this year — if the early polling holds steady, that is. In light of Guerrero’s seeming popularity, that’s strange. By most reasonable accounts, Walker has a better case. If you vote for Guerrero, you have to vote for Walker.
Let’s begin by re-examining the voting-percentage numbers for this year’s candidates so far, in the context of some well-established metrics for determining the strength of a player’s Hall of Fame credentials.
| Player | Vote% | WAR | JAWS | Hall of Stats | HoF Rating |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jeff Bagwell | 89% | 80.2 | 63.9 | 164 | 71.6 |
| Tim Raines | 87% | 66.4 | 55.6 | 128 | 54.2 |
| Ivan Rodriguez | 81% | 68.9 | 54.0 | 154 | 54.5 |
| Vladimir Guerrero | 74% | 54.4 | 50.2 | 111 | 43.7 |
| Trevor Hoffman | 74% | 26.1 | 24.0 | 63 | 16.1 |
| Barry Bonds | 70% | 164.4 | 117.6 | 362 | 168.7 |
| Roger Clemens | 70% | 133.7 | 103.3 | 294 | 124.4 |
| Edgar Martinez | 66% | 65.5 | 56.0 | 135 | 54.8 |
| Mike Mussina | 62% | 82.2 | 63.8 | 164 | 67.6 |
| Curt Schilling | 51% | 79.8 | 64.5 | 172 | 72.4 |
| Manny Ramirez | 43% | 66.4 | 54.6 | 129 | 51.7 |
| Lee Smith | 36% | 26.6 | 25.4 | 63 | 16.3 |
| Larry Walker | 19% | 68.7 | 58.6 | 151 | 56.4 |
| Jeff Kent | 17% | 56.1 | 45.4 | 102 | 44.1 |
| Fred McGriff | 15% | 56.9 | 44.1 | 94 | 44.0 |
| Jorge Posada | 11% | 44.7 | 37.7 | 90 | 35.2 |
| Sammy Sosa | 11% | 60.1 | 51.0 | 116 | 50.1 |
| Billy Wagner | 9% | 24.1 | 24.0 | 65 | 14.6 |
| Gary Sheffield | 6% | 62.1 | 49.1 | 116 | 51.6 |
HoF Rating from Craig Edwards’ “An Alternative Hall of Fame Rating System”
Hall of Stats from Adam Darowski’s HallofStats.com
JAWS from Jay Jaffe, obviously
As you can see, Guerrero sticks out like a sore thumb: he’s received quite a share of the vote relative to his most relevant numbers. Walker sticks out, too — for the opposite reason. The contrast becomes more stark when you strip this down to just right fielders:
| Player | Vote% | WAR | JAWS | Hall of Stats | HoF Rating |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Vladimir Guerrero | 74% | 54.4 | 50.2 | 111 | 43.7 |
| Manny Ramirez | 43% | 66.4 | 54.6 | 129 | 51.7 |
| Larry Walker | 19% | 68.7 | 58.6 | 151 | 56.4 |
| Sammy Sosa | 11% | 60.1 | 51.0 | 116 | 50.1 |
| Gary Sheffield | 6% | 62.1 | 49.1 | 116 | 51.6 |
Hall of Stats from Adam Darowski’s HallofStats.com
HoF Rating from Craig Edwards’ “An Alternative Hall of Fame Rating System”
JAWS from Jay Jaffe, obviously
When you boil it down like this, you see that Walker is first among all of these measures, while Guerrero is last in all but one (JAWS), and he is next-to-last in that measure. A graphic from Adam Darowski’s excellent Hall of Stats sums things up well:

These are the top right fielders by Darowski’s Hall Rating who haven’t been inducted. Darowksi’s methodology rates Walker as his seventh-best right fielder of all-time, with Guerrero as 20th-best, in a virtual tie with Bobby Bonds, who isn’t enshrined in Cooperstown.
Guerrero does have a lead on Walker in some counting stats, but not over all of his right-field brethren. (Listed in order of games played. Table is sortable.)
| Player | G | PA | H | 1B | 2B | 3B | HR | R | RBI | BB | IBB | SB | CS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sheffield | 2,576 | 10,947 | 2,689 | 1,686 | 467 | 27 | 509 | 1,636 | 1,676 | 1,475 | 130 | 253 | 104 |
| Sosa | 2,354 | 9,896 | 2,408 | 1,375 | 379 | 45 | 609 | 1,475 | 1,667 | 929 | 154 | 234 | 107 |
| Ramirez | 2,302 | 9,774 | 2,574 | 1,452 | 547 | 20 | 555 | 1,544 | 1,831 | 1,329 | 216 | 38 | 33 |
| Guerrero | 2,147 | 9,059 | 2,590 | 1,618 | 477 | 46 | 449 | 1,328 | 1,496 | 737 | 250 | 181 | 94 |
| Walker | 1,988 | 8,030 | 2,160 | 1,244 | 471 | 62 | 383 | 1,355 | 1,311 | 913 | 117 | 230 | 76 |
Looking specifically at Guerrero vs. Walker, we see that despite logging 1,029 more plate appearances than Walker, Guerrero’s extra-base hit advantage is a minuscule 56. If you look at rate stats, you see that Walker had a 19.1% HR/FB compared to 16.0% for Guerrero. And this isn’t merely a product of Coors Field, either: Walker’s advantage holds for away games as well — 16.9% for Walker to Guerrero’s 15.8%. And keep in mind those are numbers that encompass only the tail end of Walker’s career (our splits only go back to 2002, which is the first year the Rockies had their humidor), and the prime of Guerrero’s.
The Coors Field factor still is a bugaboo, though, isn’t it? Let’s look at the road stats for the position players on this year’s ballot.
| Player | G | PA | H | 2B | 3B | HR | SB | BA | OBP | SLG | OPS | ISO | tOPS+ |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bonds | 1494 | 6482 | 1505 | 309 | 37 | 383 | 255 | 0.296 | 0.44 | 0.597 | 1.037 | 0.301 | 98 |
| Ramirez | 1151 | 4984 | 1327 | 289 | 9 | 273 | 22 | 0.314 | 0.409 | 0.58 | 0.989 | 0.266 | 99 |
| Sosa | 1170 | 4999 | 1209 | 191 | 18 | 288 | 125 | 0.27 | 0.337 | 0.513 | 0.851 | 0.243 | 94 |
| Bagwell | 1067 | 4787 | 1153 | 241 | 14 | 215 | 110 | 0.291 | 0.398 | 0.521 | 0.919 | 0.230 | 94 |
| Guerrero | 1055 | 4461 | 1249 | 221 | 23 | 210 | 95 | 0.312 | 0.376 | 0.536 | 0.912 | 0.224 | 96 |
| McGriff | 1236 | 5206 | 1298 | 225 | 12 | 252 | 38 | 0.288 | 0.376 | 0.51 | 0.887 | 0.222 | 100 |
| Walker | 1002 | 4034 | 967 | 203 | 23 | 168 | 109 | 0.278 | 0.370 | 0.495 | 0.865 | 0.217 | 80 |
| Kent | 1149 | 4911 | 1277 | 291 | 22 | 203 | 43 | 0.29 | 0.353 | 0.504 | 0.857 | 0.214 | 100 |
| Sheffield | 1282 | 5538 | 1352 | 239 | 13 | 247 | 138 | 0.288 | 0.384 | 0.501 | 0.886 | 0.213 | 95 |
| Martinez | 1038 | 4391 | 1157 | 246 | 10 | 160 | 24 | 0.312 | 0.412 | 0.514 | 0.926 | 0.202 | 98 |
| Posada | 937 | 3721 | 836 | 201 | 7 | 123 | 12 | 0.263 | 0.363 | 0.447 | 0.809 | 0.184 | 91 |
| Rodriguez | 1269 | 5194 | 1386 | 300 | 18 | 149 | 69 | 0.285 | 0.322 | 0.447 | 0.769 | 0.162 | 93 |
| Raines | 1246 | 5295 | 1323 | 225 | 55 | 87 | 368 | 0.289 | 0.378 | 0.419 | 0.796 | 0.130 | 97 |
The table is sorted by road ISO, and you’ll see that Walker is squarely in the middle of the pack. Not much separates him from Guerrero, and he does better than Hall of Famers like Edgar Martinez, Gary Sheffield and Tim Raines, whose offensive credentials are not in question. Overall, on the road for their careers, Guerrero posted a .376 OBP, while Walker was at .370. That’s a negligible difference.
The real hangup is the separation between Walker’s home and road stats, which we see quantified numerically in tOPS+, which is defined as “OPS for split relative to player’s total OPS.” Walker’s road numbers look far worse than his home numbers, and so it appears as though his stats were unfairly inflated by Coors Field. But as we see here, Walker’s stats on the road show he was no scrub. He hit more road homers than Martinez in fewer PA. Compared to his contemporaries, Walker was in the top 40 in OBP and OPS, and top 50 in ISO and SLG.
Moreover, this gap isn’t a reflection of Walker’s true talent. We have seen time and again that Rockies hitters face an adjustment when they go on the road due to the altitude. Notably, we’ve had this discussion about Matt Holliday, Dexter Fowler and Carlos Gonzalez in recent years. Mike Petriello examined this at MLB.com a year ago today, and that entire piece is worth re-reading. Here’s a key excerpt, regarding the post-Rockies performance of Holliday, Fowler, Clint Barmes, Seth Smith and Chris Iannetta:
Every single one improved, except for Barmes, who basically hit at his established averages no matter where he was. While five players is admittedly not a huge sample, there’s no evidence that a Rockies hitter who goes elsewhere and gets regular playing time is going to fall apart. Unless you think Gonzalez’s entire career to this point is due entirely to Coors Field, which isn’t supported by evidence, he’ll be productive anywhere.
Let’s do the same with Walker. Was Walker aided by Colorado’s thin air in the pre-humidor days? Let’s look at his OPS+ and wRC+ breakdowns by team as well as by pre- and post-humidor for his time in Colorado.
| Team | Age | OPS+ | wRC+ |
|---|---|---|---|
| Montreal | 22-27 | 128 | 128 |
| Colorado (Overall) | 28-37 | 147 | 147 |
| Colorado (1995-2001) | 28-34 | 150 | 150 |
| Colorado (2002-2004) | 35-37 | 140 | 139 |
| St. Louis | 37-38 | 134 | 139 |
Now, you can see that Walker was at his best in those humidor days. Was the humidor single-handedly responsible for Walker’s better performance? There are reasons to believe otherwise. First of all, Walker was well past his prime by 2002, when he was 35. We wouldn’t expect him to perform as well then as in his late 20s and early 30s. In addition, when Walker was at his best, he was unstoppable anywhere. Check his splits from his 1997 campaign, when he won the NL MVP Award:
| Split | G | PA | H | 2B | 3B | HR | SB | BA | OBP | SLG | OPS | tOPS+ | sOPS+ |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Home | 78 | 350 | 116 | 30 | 4 | 20 | 17 | 0.384 | 0.460 | 0.709 | 1.169 | 100 | 199 |
| Away | 75 | 314 | 92 | 16 | 0 | 29 | 16 | 0.346 | 0.443 | 0.733 | 1.176 | 100 | 213 |
sOPS+ = OPS for split relative to league’s split OPS
As you can see, Walker hit just as well on the road as he did at home, and his road stats compared against the league (sOPS+) in that season were exemplary. Combine this with Petriello’s anecdotal evidence and there’s sufficient reason to believe in Walker’s offensive accomplishments. Walker hit well at Coors Field because he was capable of hitting well everywhere. This shows up in the stats that strip out the bias inherent with ballparks, wRC+ chief among them. For their careers, Walker was a better hitter than Guerrero by wRC+, 140 to 136. Whether you want to give full credit to these ballpark adjustments, they’re not so wrong as to be completely discounted. The bottom line is that there is no argument that Walker was a far inferior hitter to Guerrero.
We can also see Walker also stole more bases and was caught fewer times. His +154 SB-CS margin is nearly double Guerrero’s +87. Again, Walker did this with far fewer opportunities. Advanced metrics have him as a better baserunner as well. Walker’s 21.5 BsR is third-best among players on the ballot this year, while Guerrero’s -49.8 is next-to-last, better only than Posada’s. Take it to the full accounting of history, and Walker’s 21.5 BsR is 29th-best among 686 qualified right fielders all-time, while Guerrero’s -49.8 BsR ranks dead last.
There is one piece of evidence that does offer support for why Guerrero is doing so well on ballots. Check out that IBB column in the counting stats table above. If you subscribe to the theory that the most respected/feared hitters are the ones who garner the most intentional walks, then Guerrero is definitely at the cream of that crop.
| IBBs, 1955-Present | IBBs, 1996-2011 | ||
|---|---|---|---|
| Player | IBB | Player | IBB |
| Barry Bonds | 688 | Barry Bonds | 492 |
| Albert Pujols | 302 | Albert Pujols | 251 |
| Hank Aaron | 293 | Vladimir Guerrero | 250 |
| Willie McCovey | 260 | Manny Ramirez | 206 |
| Vladimir Guerrero | 250 | Todd Helton | 183 |
| Ken Griffey Jr. | 246 | Carlos Delgado | 182 |
| George Brett | 228 | Chipper Jones | 170 |
| Willie Stargell | 227 | Ichiro Suzuki | 168 |
| Eddie Murray | 222 | Jim Thome | 158 |
| Miguel Cabrera | 220 | Lance Berkman | 154 |
1996-2011 is the span of Guerrero’s career.
In the non-Barry Bonds division, Guerrero was basically the most respected hitter in the game. Part of that is surely because Guerrero was capable of making contact on any pitch, so you couldn’t just pitch around him in a normal way. But all those IBBs may just be distorting his true value.
Walker was also a far better defender. In the scouting community, they talk of five-tool players. Larry Walker was the quintessential five-tool player who actually exhibited those tools in game action. Guerrero no doubt had all the tools, but he too often wasted them.
Walker suffers a little in this regard because he played so much of his career outside of the “FanGraphs era.” The chief defensive stats we use — UZR and DRS — aren’t available before 2002 and 2003, respectively. Since Walker played from 1989 to 2005, only the tail end of his career is accounted for by these stats, whereas Guerrero — who played from 1996 to 2011 — gets the majority of his career covered. And yet, Guerrero, he of the cannon arm, loses out to Walker in the two Arm components.
| Player | Innings | rARM (DRS) | ARM (UZR) |
|---|---|---|---|
| Larry Walker | 3392.3 | 5 | 15.8 |
| Vladimir Guerrero | 7627.3 | 2 | 6.3 |
Even at the tail end of Walker’s career, when he had endured eight surgeries and it hurt for him to turn his head to the left, Walker still had a better arm than Guerrero. In fact, that table is being generous to Guerrero. If we isolate it to the final four years of Guerrero’s career the way we are for Walker’s, it looks a lot worse for Guerrero.
| Player | Innings | rARM (DRS) | ARM (UZR) |
|---|---|---|---|
| Larry Walker | 3392.3 | 5 | 15.8 |
| Vladimir Guerrero | 973.7 | -5 | -3.2 |
Pay special attention to the innings column. Guerrero played far fewer innings in the field his last four seasons. In fact, in his final season, he was strictly a designated hitter, whereas Walker played the field right to the end.
The same is true for the older advanced fielding stat, Total Zone. Baseball-Reference has Walker’s TZ at 97, compared to 43 for Guerrero. They also break it down per 1,200 innings, and Walker again grades out twice as well — 8 to 4.
Of course, we don’t even need advanced stats for this comparison. Let’s look at basic statistics.
| Player | Innings | Putouts | Assists | Errors | Double Plays |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Larry Walker | 14,987.0 | 3,315 | 154 | 48 | 39 |
| Vladimir Guerrero | 13,784.0 | 3,169 | 126 | 125 | 32 |
This is what you call no contest. The notion that Walker was less durable doesn’t exactly square with what we see in the innings played column. Walker played in the field for far longer than did Guerrero, who started 508 games at DH — more than three seasons’ worth. The reason why is clear when you look at the error totals. Guerrero’s 125 errors are eye-popping. During his career, Guerrero was charged with 46 more errors than any other outfielder. In the Integrated Era (1947-present), only eight outfielders have been charged with more errors. To say he was mistake-prone is a gigantic understatement.
So, we’ve established that Walker was a better hitter, fielder and baserunner in the regular season. What about the playoffs?
| Year | G | PA | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | BA | OBP | SLG | OPS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Larry Walker | 28 | 121 | 100 | 23 | 5 | 1 | 7 | 0.230 | 0.350 | 0.510 | 0.860 |
| Vladimir Guerrero | 44 | 188 | 171 | 45 | 7 | 0 | 2 | 0.263 | 0.324 | 0.339 | 0.664 |
Walker bests Guerrero here as well. In 67 fewer postseason PAs, Walker racked up four more extra-base hits than did Guerrero. Walker’s .860 postseason OPS was at least in the neighborhood of his .965 regular-season OPS. But there is a Grand Canyon-sized gulf between Guerrero’s regular-season .931 OPS and his .664 postseason OPS. In fact, these overall numbers don’t do the comparison much justice. Walker put up a .389 OBP against one of the best-ever pitching staffs in the 1995 Atlanta Braves, and was the only Cardinals player to hit a home run off of the Red Sox in the 2004 World Series. Guerrero faced those 2004 Red Sox too. How’d he do?
| Player | Age | Tm | Series | G | PA | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | BA | OBP | SLG | OPS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Vladimir Guerrero | 29 | ANA | ALDS | 3 | 14 | 12 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0.167 | 0.286 | 0.417 | 0.702 |
| Larry Walker | 37 | STL | WS | 4 | 17 | 14 | 5 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0.357 | 0.438 | 0.929 | 1.366 |
Look, obviously it’d be silly to condemn Guerrero over 14 PAs, but the point is illustrated once again: whether you want to slice it finely, or take the broader view, there are very few ways you can paint Guerrero as a superior player to Walker. Yeah, Guerrero has him on career bulk in some categories, most notably for home runs, because Walker was injured a lot. But that’s about it. And subjectively, if you’re talking about the love of the game, you’re going to have a real hard time convincing me that the guy who endured eight surgeries and kept coming back for more deserves to be punished for his relative lack of career bulk. If anything, he deserves to be applauded. Seems to me that a player who goes under the knife eight times and can still rock a .424 OBP and hit two homers in the World Series at age 37 is about as tough as they come.
If you want to vote for Vladimir Guerrero, that’s totally fine. I would love to see him in the Hall of Fame — I’m not a “Small Hall” guy by any stretch. But if you are voting for Guerrero, you should be voting for Larry Walker, too.
Paul Swydan used to be the managing editor of The Hardball Times, a writer and editor for FanGraphs and a writer for Boston.com and The Boston Globe. Now, he owns The Silver Unicorn Bookstore, an independent bookstore in Acton, Mass. Follow him on Twitter @Swydan. Follow the store @SilUnicornActon.
It’s certainly worth noting that I’ve seen my fair share of ballots with Walker as their #11, and if you only have ten slots and see next year’s first time group on the horizon – Andruw Jones, Chipper Jones, Scott Rolen, Jim Thome, Omar Vizquel and Johan Santana, five or six of whom could get 5% and two of whom should be first-ballot selections- it’s not insane to want to clear Vlad from the ballot and push hard Walker’s final three seasons. Walker is definitely deserving. If he can make serious gains, like into the 25-30% range, then there could be actual momentum towards giving his final three years an incredible push to 75%. Even if he fails, he’ll immediately become one of the top Today’s Game candidates. I think he’ll get the support there.
I hate that there has to be this much of a strategy to filling out a HoF ballot.
Yes Kevin L, a million times YES! Look at what a hotel’s relatively innocuous marketing strategy (let’s build a baseball museum to attract guests, after all, baseball was invented here (it wasn’t of course)) has come to!
Its “Hot or Not” for baseball writers. That sounds hyperbolic, but whatever, its the same idea. Having a concept of what is *exclusive*, and then applying it, but here the hotties are made public. Cool.
So let’s just have fun with baseball stats. Fancy stats like you guys who are good at the maths, and easy count-y stuff for guys like me. Awe and laughs, that’s the goal. I just flipped through baseball reference numbers and am laughing that Barry Bonds had 2,169 more combined hits, walks, and hbp than Vlad Guerrero. 5599 to 3430 (Barry played a lot more games, of course). And yet, Vlad managed to get himself thrown out on the bases 142 times (not counting caught stealing… just running around) and Barry was out on the bases only 91 times. Vlad Guerrero, overconfident at running. Lol.
Also fun, they scored from 2nd on a single at nearly the exact same rate, to the thousandths: .659. I love how skill-focused baseball is. Think of how Barry and Vlad would have ran from 2nd to home in their absolute prime compared to their last years. Some physical skills can crater, and yet you can still suit up. Like life
HOF is dumb, bye all
Aha! I was looking for that BBHOF tracker link just this morning and couldn’t find it.
Interesting to see Bonds/Clemens floating around 70%, also interesting that Guerrero has so much support in his first year on the ballot, is this a sign that the “he’s a hall of famer but not a first ballot one” crowd are (finally) being phased out?
OK, OK. I give up. Walker it is.
I’ve seen people say things like “it was so much fun to watch Vlad!” To my mind they mean it made him unique and fun to watch when he hit a pitch that bounced or one over his head. How much do these intangible factors that make a player “famous” count? It’s clearly not all about the numbers when the actual ballots come in.
I think this is a factor as well. Hall of “Fame” for some is not just a numbers thing, but a stories issue. You can tell a story about watching Vlad when you pass the plaque with your kid “he would hit a homerun off of his own shoelaces in one at-bat, and then line a double off of a pitch that looked like it was going to hit the bill of his cap in the next.” With Walker you don’t have that here-are-my-memories moment. Just “Oh yeah, Walker was a really good player that had trouble staying healthy. He could certainly hit it a long way and that thin air made for some impressive blasts… Did I tell you about the time Mike Piazza almost hit one out of the stadium there?”
Still, his numbers are worthy. I didn’t realize that he was as much of a defensive asset, or that he stole so many bases (again, possibly more of a PR issue than anything.)
Well there was the “after John Olerud, Walker was the guy we thought might have a shot at .400” narrative. He put up some astounding batting averages.
Sure, but Larry Walker was just as fun to watch. The Rockies just seem to exist in this space where no one pays attention to them. They’re the only team in the Mountain time zone, etc. I didn’t include this video because Jay Jaffe included it in his piece yesterday, but Larry Walker was/is hilarious.
http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v23179017/nlal-walker-turns-helmet-backwards-bats-righty
That he’s not remembered as fondly has as much to do with the space between his playing days and today and the fact that the Rockies don’t generate much media heat.
If you’re talking narrative you can’t underestimate his value to baseball in Canada as well.
True! This is probably his most compelling narrative case.
He was almost certainly the best player Canada produced in the era between Ferguson Jenkins and Joey Votto…
As of right now you can’t say best between, as that has you putting Votto as a better player, and he still has a ways to go to pass Walker. To the point where Votto may not retire as a better player than Walker (I don’t think he will, but that’s just my opinion). Walker falls more as the best Canadian player not named Jenkins I think. Or best position player. However you want to swing it.
Montreal had a pretty negative media profile too. And the strike hurting early chances at postseason heroics. Though, as a Jays fan, I still enjoyed watching the Expos when I could.
phoenix2042, that’s an excellent point and speaking to it, Walker was one of funniest guys to ever play. The backwards helmet against Randy Johnson in the All-Star game? Genius. Watch any interview or ask any teammate, guy was gold. If Vlad gets points for that (I saw him hit a broken-bat HR in SF, amazing) then Walker gets points for being the best goof of that era.
That John Kruk was quite a character 🙂
On the topic of broken-bat HRs… They’re not *really* all that amazing. I might just take a little bit of the magic out of your world here, so feel free to skip the rest of this post if you prefer to keep the magic alive.
…
…
The Hardball Times posted an article in January (http://www.hardballtimes.com/the-physics-of-broken-bat-homers/) about broken-bat homers – if you are pressed for time, the gist of it is that the bat flexes when it contacts the ball, but by the time the bend in the bat reaches the point that the bat actually breaks, the ball is already gone.
So, while it is impressive to hit a homer when making contact that far up the handle, the fact that the bat happened to break isn’t really as impressive as it might seem.
I agree with you but very few of the HOF voters are going to take it down to that level of detail. They just aren’t. And he is always going to face the Coors Field stigma (as Helton will in a few years) with too many writers dismissing all Rockies hitters.
But beyond that, Walker just doesn’t have the counting stats. Walker has 2160 hits. The only HOF RF with fewer played in the 1800’s mostly. The only post-WWII HOF RF with fewer than Reggie’s 2584 is Enos Slaughter and he had 2383, or over a full season’s more hits than Walker.
Similarly, Walker finished with 383 HR. THe HOF RF with fewer mostly played 100 years ago. The only 2 post-WWII HOF RF with fewer are Clemente and Gwynn and they both topped 3000 hits.
He doesn’t have the counting numbers and that’s mostly because he just couldn’t stay healthy for full seasons. His MVP year in 1997 was the only year he played over 142 games, and even that year he only played 153. (To be fair, he was on pace to exceed 142 in 1994-5 but only barely. IN each he was on about a 146 games played pace.) I would say he reminds me of Jim Edmonds in that respect, but Edmonds managed 150 4 times plus a 150+ pace in 1995.
You mentioned the 1029 PA gap between Walker and Guerrero – that’s what is going to keep him out. If he had been able to stay healthy, he gets 400 HR and maybe 2400 hits. Plus, he would have no doubt made a bigger dent in the MVP voting with more counting stats. He might have even won another one in 1992 with a few more RBI.
I’d vote him in but I’m a big Hall guy. I think based on the current voting trends he is going to have a hard time making it by the writer’s vote
What’s interesting here is that the gap in plate appearances would likely have shrank if Walker played in the AL. The voters, if they emphasize these differences in longevity, are favoring AL hitters who can move to DH to prolong their career. Doesn’t seem quite right.
Hot take alert! The HOF will be just fine (maybe even better) if it inducts people who were “fun to watch” even though they didn’t have the best stats (within reason) and excludes people even though they had pretty good stats but were boring. The ones who fit well in that second category would be guys like Mike Mussina and Larry Walker. Please downvote to agree with me.
But Mussina and Walker didn’t just have pretty good stats, they’re the 17th and 27th best players at their positions (all OF positions for Walker) in the history of baseball respectively.
I agree. But my point that I won’t miss them not being in a museum that celebrates memorable people, remains. They just weren’t memorable.
But Walker was fun to watch. It didn’t get more fun than watching the Blake Street Bombers hit a bunch of dingers. And that’s before you get into Walker’s highlight plays in the field.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but if “fun to watch” is the major criteria, then Sammy Sosa should be getting more votes. I know PEDs and a poor relationship with his team at the end of his career are keeping his totals down, but his “hop” was iconic, his “sprint” was known to everyone, and his chase for history with McGwire brought baseball back from the shadows of American sports. If there’s an exception to be made in the PED case; Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and Clemons are probably those guys.
yellowpineapple – if you think Walker was boring, you never saw him play.
Um i think Sheff has a bigger gripe than Walker
only 6%? wtf
But, that’s on BALCO, not on performance.
Is it? Sheff had a pretty damn good career before 2003
Voters treat the BALCO penalty as punitive, not corrective.
Yes! Thank you, Paul. I made this exact point a little while back.
“As you can see, Walker hit just as well on the road as he did at home.” FALSE! Check any Colorado year OTHER than the MVP season and see the massive difference in production.
This should not be getting downvoted.
1995H: 1.131 OPS
1995A: 0.845 OPS
1996H: 1.248 OPS
1996A: 0.523 OPS
1998H: 1.241 OPS
1998A: 0.892 OPS
1999H: 1.410 OPS
1999A: 0.894 OPS
2000H: 1.062 OPS
2000A: 0.770 OPS
2001H: 1.256 OPS
2001A: 0.965 OPS
2002H: 1.124 OPS
2002A: 0.917 OPS
2003H: 1.021 OPS
2003A: 0.766 OPS
Indeed, nothing should be “downvoted,” as that adds nothing to any discussion.
However, both that comment and your followup plainly miss the context that was clearly stated in the full sentence from which an excerpt was quoted:
“As you can see, Walker hit just as well on the road as he did at home, and his road stats compared against the league (sOPS+) in that season were exemplary.”
“In that season.” The author is talking about that MVP season. He discusses Walker’s career splits elsewhere.
What you’re plainly missing is that singling out Walker’s only season with the Rockies where he didn’t have a massive home/road split and using that to argue “when Walker was at his best, he was unstoppable anywhere,” was misleading at minimum. And while the author did briefly bring up Walker’s career splits, he only brought them up to dismiss them by arguing that “Rockies hitters face an adjustment when they go on the road due to the altitude.” Clearly Larry Walker was an excellent player before he ever joined the Rockies, but it is just as clear that he benefited tremendously from playing his home games at Coors. If he had played longer then it would be easier to overlook that factor, but as it stands, it’s hard to see the case for him when it is built on numerical excellence that was unquestionably influenced by where he played.
I just don’t get you, man. It seems like you don’t acknowledge that major league games have been played in Coors Field, and that those who played well there deserve credit for their work.
79 guys have batted at least 300 times in Coors, including Barry Bonds. Walker leads them all in BA, SLG and OPS in that park.
The other 78 guys totaled .318 BA, .528 SLG and .913 OPS in Coors. So yes, it’s a great hitter’s park. But Walker’s numbers there are .381 BA, .710 SLG and 1.172 OPS.
If Walker’s OPS is 28% better than what other regular players have done there, isn’t that just as meaningful as Miguel Cabrera’s 2016 OPS being 28% above the AL average? Cabrera’s 2016 was a HOF-caliber batting season — All-Star, Silver Slugger, 9th in MVP votes. Walker’s work in Coors Field was HOF-caliber.
Let’s try a different angle. During Walker’s career, 147 guys totaled at least 5,000 PAs. In home OPS, he ranked #3. In road OPS, he ranked #30. The average of those rankings is #16 or #17. The total OPS rankings for those years show #16 Mike Piazza, #17 Edgar Martinez. Can you still deny that Walker was a brilliant hitter?
So when we look at OPS+ for that group and find Walker #18, it suggests that the park adjustment baked into OPS+ is reasonable. Walker’s 141 OPS+ is a fair statement of his true batting performance.
Clearly, he was a great defender and very good baserunner. He won 7 Gold Gloves, had a large number of assists and a low error rate. By WAR fielding runs, he’s #13 in that same group of 147. He’s in the top fifth for stolen bases, with a very good success rate. WAR baserunning runs ranks him #16.
Great hitter, great defender, very good baserunner. That supports his #5 ranking in bWAR for that span.
Is it HOF-worthy?
There are 50 modern HOF outfielders. Walker’s OPS+ would rank #16 in that group, his bWAR #20. Yes, he played less than the median of that group — but WAR already accounts for that, and there are 13 HOF outfielders who played fewer games.
Was he not a big star? He won an MVP (leading the league in WAR that year), and got MVP votes in 7 other years. He was the NL’s highest-paid position player in 2000, 4th in ’01 and ’02.
What HOF box does he not check for you? Simply saying that he wasn’t a great road hitter is like saying some guy couldn’t hit a good changeup — it doesn’t matter if the total package is still good enough. Walker’s package is more than good enough.
It would probably help you “get” me if you acknowledged the things I actually wrote instead of deliberately misrepresenting my position. “Clearly Larry Walker was an excellent player before he ever joined the Rockies” was a pretty unambiguous statement endorsing Walker’s abilities. You’re pretending that I am impugning Walker and dismissing him as some Dante Bichette-type creation of Coors Field when I did nothing of the sort because you don’t have any rebuttal for the facts I have presented regarding his home/road splits. Colorado hitters absolutely deserve credit for their work, but they very clearly do not deserve full credit for their work.
Your excuse that “saying that he wasn’t a great road hitter is like saying some guy couldn’t hit a good changeup” is deeply disingenuous because you’re dismissing the undeniable reality that Coors Field, especially during that era, was a performance enhancing ballpark. Larry Walker was not simply a bad road hitter, as his time with the Expos demonstrates. With Montreal, his OPS was 0.046 higher at home than on the road, a pretty normal split for the average major leaguer. With the Rockies, his OPS was 0.280 higher at home than on the road. That’s six times larger. Larry Walker was the best hitter to play in that performance enhancing ballpark and therefore he benefited even more from it, just as Barry Bonds was the best hitter to use performance enhancing drugs and benefited even more from them.
You noted yourself that among Walker’s contemporaries, he ranked only 30th out of your 147 in road OPS. That is not Hall of Fame caliber. He was an excellent hitter along with being a quality defender and baserunner, and had he played significantly more then he would probably get in even after docking him for the Coors effect, but unfortunately his career was cut short by injuries. Anon provided a compelling explanation above as to why Larry Walker is not a Hall of Famer:
Do you get that?
I get enough to see that you neither accept park-adjusted stats nor state a specific dispute with them. And that you confuse playing time with value.
On the latter topic … I already showed that 13 of 50 HOF outfielders played fewer games than Walker, so he’s hardly an outlier there. Kirby Puckett, Ralph Kiner and Earle Combs played less than Walker. All had bad luck with health. But playing time is just one factor. Would you grant that Babe Ruth or Willie Mays would belong in the Hall even if they’d quit after 2,000 games?
Many guys who played more added little to no value in several seasons. Walker was good from beginning to end, excepting his September call-up. Counting stats can be misleading. Let’s talk about good years. Whatever level of good year you care to count, Walker had at least as many as the median of HOF outfielders:
Walker had 12 years with at least 3.0 bWAR. That would be tied for 18th among modern HOF outfielders.
Walker had 10 years with at least 4.0 bWAR. That also would be tied for 18th among modern HOF OFs, along with Griffey, Reggie, and Al Simmons.
Walker had 6 years with at least 5.0 bWAR. That would be 25th among modern HOF OFs, just ahead of Gwynn, Winfield, B.Williams, Rice, Kiner and Hack Wilson.
Walker had 3 years with at least 6.0 bWAR. That would be tied for 26th, along with Gwynn, Doby, and several pre-WWII guys. 7 of the 50 had no such years.
Walker had 2 years with at least 7.0 bWAR. That would be tied for 20th among modern HOF OFs, along with Puckett, Stargell, Jackson, Dawson, Ashburn, Medwick and Heilmann. 15 of the 50 had no such years.
Walker had 1 year with at least 9.0 bWAR. 11 modern HOF OFs had 2 or more, 4 had 1, and 35 had none.
So, longevity’s nice, but I’m not really moved by Reggie Jackson’s 4 full years worth 1 bWAR or less from age 37, or the same by Dave Winfield. Griffey’s last 9 seasons added little to his HOF credentials, and his last 5 totaled less than 1 WAR.
Walker played less than most HOFers, but he produced wins at a higher rate than most of them. Thus, he scored 48.2 wins above average. That would be 16th among modern HOF outfielders.
Walker did average just 123 games in the 16 years after his cup of coffee. But if you have Walker for 123 games and a replacement-level RF for 39, you’re still better off than if you had the median HOF outfielder playing every day.
George Brett won an MVP playing 117 games; DiMaggio won one with 120 games; Mantle won one with 123 games; Bonds won one with 130 games. Playing time is just part of the picture.
It’s wearisome that none of the things you claim about my arguments are actually true. When you repeatedly have to misrepresent what someone else has said, that should be a giant clue that you need to stop arguing because you have let your emotions overrule your reason. I recognize park-adjusted statistics, but the reality is that applying a uniform correction to all statistics ignores that players are individually different and benefit to different degrees. Furthermore, I am not in any way confusing playing time with value, as I have argued in other Hall of Fame threads that simply being good for a prolonged period of time is not compelling either. The problem for Larry Walker is that his value was greatly boosted by where he played his home games, and that he did not play long enough to overcome the necessary docking of his value for the Coors effect.
Puckett and Combs don’t belong in the Hall of Fame either. Kiner does, but he was ludicrously dominant over a five year stretch in ways that few major leaguers ever have been.
Sure. Larry Walker is not Babe Ruth or Willie Mays. Either you’re suggesting that he is, which is ridiculous, or you’re implying that I impose some kind of playing time minimum on inclusion, which is completely untrue. What I and others have stated is that Walker missing so many games hurts his case, especially after you dock him for the Coors effect.
*facepalm* Yet again with the ridiculous and pointless misrepresentation. In what way did I even remotely imply that Coors Field was “custom-built at Walker’s fiendish request”? Please, please knock this off. Either you can argue your point or you can’t; repeatedly twisting my words is only damaging your credibility and my patience.
Thank you for acknowledging this because it is exactly my point. Uniform application of park effects misses how individuals benefit from them to different degrees. It’s absolutely fair to point out that Wade Boggs benefited more from Fenway than Dwight Evans did. That’s not intended to be a condemnation of Boggs just as the facts I am presenting are not intended to be a condemnation of Walker. The splits I presented are intended to demonstrate that Walker benefited tremendously from playing so many games in Coors, and that if he had played for some alternate team then his production would not have been nearly as impressive. As I stated, Larry Walker was an excellent player with the Montreal Expos. In a theoretical world where he stayed with the Expos for his entire career and had the same health issues, I do not believe that there would be much support for his Hall candidacy.
I never claimed that it was “directly proportional,” because it isn’t, but there is evidence of proportionality:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml
“It’s absolutely fair to point out that Wade Boggs benefited more from Fenway than Dwight Evans did. That’s not intended to be a condemnation of Boggs just as the facts I am presenting are not intended to be a condemnation of Walker. The splits I presented are intended to demonstrate that Walker benefited tremendously from playing so many games in Coors, and that if he had played for some alternate team then his production would not have been nearly as impressive.”
Firstly, your conclusion assumes facts not in evidence. You acknowledge that Walker was excellent with Montreal (through age 27), but imply that his improvement with Colorado was unusual enough that it must be a park distortion. But many great players improved around that age. Roberto Clemente’s improvement from age 28 was much bigger than Walker’s. Nap Lajoie was better from 28 on than before. Adrian Beltre’s been better in his 30s than 20s. So was Charlie Gehringer. It’s just not unusual. So you can’t tie Walker’s improvement — which began 2 years after he joined the Rockies, and remained even after he left them at age 37 — strictly to the change in home parks.
But more importantly, if you would deny a player full credit for excelling proportionally to others within a shared environment, no matter what that environment is, simply because that environment seems to favor him, then you would set up a standard that is impossible to enforce fairly or consistently.
Babe Ruth was the first to successfully uppercut with all his might, all the time, and strikeouts be damned. Part of his success was because pitchers weren’t used to that approach, and outfielders weren’t used to balls being hit so far. So in one sense, it was an environment that “unfairly” favored Ruth. But in another sense, he made his luck by taking advantage of the conditions he found.
My view is, if Wade Boggs can loft soft flies off the Green Monster, if Rod Carew can read the infield grass and bunt accordingly, if Carl Hubbell can get guys to hit into CF in the Polo Grounds, and if Larry Walker can do whatever he did to hit better than anyone else ever did in Coors Field, kudos to them.
I say the only rational way to use park effects is to apply them uniformly. I challenge you to lay out a practical way to do otherwise. Quibbling about them on a case-by-case basis won’t do.
Here’s one part I don’t get: “Larry Walker was the best hitter to play in that performance enhancing ballpark and therefore he benefited even more from it, just as Barry Bonds was the best hitter to use performance enhancing drugs and benefited even more from them.”
In the first instance, you act as though the conditions were custom-built at Walker’s fiendish request. The conditions existed before him. If they did happen to suit him better than most guys, that’s hardly unusual. Wade Boggs got a bigger boost from Fenway than almost anyone; his home/away gap was .200 during his Red Sox years. Is that his fault? — or is it to his credit that he bested most others at exploiting the park? Hank Greenberg had a .208 gap with the Tigers. Boot him out of the Hall? If a field has high grass and someone bunts for a lot of hits, is he getting an unfair advantage?
In the second instance, there is no evidence that PED gains are directly proportional to the baseline ability. Indeed, if that were widely believed, we wouldn’t see folks citing sudden leaps from ordinary to star-level as de facto evidence of PED use.
Thus, your analogy fails on both counts.
Of course. It’s not even a controversial statement to say that Coors Field positively distorts offensive production, particularly during that era. And I already provided evidence of how it affected Walker specifically:
“ Larry Walker was not simply a bad road hitter, as his time with the Expos demonstrates. With Montreal, his OPS was 0.046 higher at home than on the road, a pretty normal split for the average major leaguer. With the Rockies, his OPS was 0.280 higher at home than on the road. That’s six times larger.
I’m guessing that you’re in college and about to get a rude awakening regarding the real world and how it isn’t “fair.” Subjective judgment is a necessary part of life. The reality is that Larry Walker’s road performance is compelling evidence that he was a very good player but clearly short of Hall of Fame caliber. You said yourself that he ranked just 30th out of 147 contemporaries with 5k+ PAs in road OPS.
*facepalm* Great googly moogly.
“Let’s try a different angle. During Walker’s career, 147 guys totaled at least 5,000 PAs. In home OPS, he ranked #3. In road OPS, he ranked #30. The average of those rankings is #16 or #17. The total OPS rankings for those years show #16 Mike Piazza, #17 Edgar Martinez. Can you still deny that Walker was a brilliant hitter?”
It’s entirely possible that I’m reading this wrong, but if you’re trying to take out the Coors Field factor, shouldn’t you just compare road OPS?
My interpretation is that even with Coors Field as his home, his average (either 16th or 17th) was in line with Piazza/Martinez. That would imply that Piazza/Martinez were clearly better hitters, because they put up the same numbers without calling Coors Field their home. Piazza’s entire career was in pitchers parks.
You absolutely can’t just compare road stats for a couple of reasons. The Rockies play their road games in a division full of pitchers parks and are the only team in the NL that doesn’t play any road games at Coors. There is also the likely “reverse Coors effect”.
In those days, National League West teams typically played 12 or 13 games against divisional opponents. While it’s fair to point out that non-Rockies hitters would benefit slightly from having some Coors road games in their sample, you’re only talking about a maximum of 6 or 7 regular season contests per year. Feel free to give Rockies players a slight bump to their road OPS and give other N.L. West hitters a slight hit, but that’s not going to change the results very much.
I must admit, I overstated the meaning of Walker’s ranking in raw home OPS. Mea culpa.
The truth is, none of us has the chops to unpack all the factors in Walker’s home/road splits on the back of an envelope. There are many complications:
— He rarely played in Denver as a visitor, just 12 games. Bonds had 91 games there and hit .358/1.207. It’s a small thing, 3% of Bonds’s career games, but it matters.
— Walker played 30% of his career games in Denver. Some people act like it’s half his career.
— His next 4 most frequent parks were Olympic Stadium, Busch Stadium, Quallcomm in SD and Dodger Stadium. Those were, on balance, pitcher’s parks, and he batted more in those parks than in Coors.
— Walker’s years as an Expo mostly predate the offensive explosion. That exaggerates the meaning of his leap in raw stats after joining the Rockies.
— The “Coors Effect,” whereby the act of batting in Coors Field seems to have a lingering negative effect on batters when they go on the road, is not well understood or universally believed. But the Rockies hitters have a much bigger home/away split than their pitchers, even after you adjust for the intangible home-field edge.
— The Coors Effect would help explain the Rockies’ extreme gap in home-away winning percentage. For their 24-year history, their W% is .542 home, .391 away. That gap of +.151 is the largest of any such team span since 1960; it’s twice the average of all other teams since 1993; and it’s very consistent. That doesn’t prove the Coors Effect, but it is certainly consistent with the theory.
Ultimately, either you accept the park adjustments that have been developed by very smart people, or you don’t. If you accept them, Walker’s a no-doubt HOFer.
So much of Walker’s problems are just going to come back to Coors Field stigma. People just mentally discount every offensive stat and ignore the fact that we have objective park adjustments which can do this with far greater accuracy than their personal intuitions.
That’s still a problem today, even in the humidor era. I mean, Coors Field is the most offensively charged park in the majors, but it’s not really that far beyond other launching pads like Yankee Stadium (more BABIP inflation, less HRs). And EVERY conversation about Rockies hitters involves a digression into home/away splits. Even some of the park factors can get it wrong (e.g. LeMahieu’s wRC+ penalty ignores the fact that his batted ball profile is essentially unaided by Coors) by virtue of being insufficiently granular, though they certainly get it wrong less often than everyone’s “Coors mirage” mental cheat.
As we get further and further from the pre-humidor era, I suspect that some of this bias will wash away. More and more home-grown Rockies position players will leave in free agency and produce elsewhere (Fowler is a recent example; Arenado will be a very exciting future example). But for the time being, players like Helton, Walker and eventually Tulowitzki are going to have a rough go of it on HoF ballots.
It’s like Coors (and Mile High before it) finally forced people to accept the reality of park effects-but in a very rudimentary black and white fashion, where they are incapable of dealing with it in a fair and balanced way.
I’ve run into this on another forum, one where the posters (we are building up our own HoF position by position, currently on 1B) are much more enlightened about sports (and things) in general, but where I am the only one to have voted for Todd Helton (we are to vote for the 10 best 1B of all time). I simply noted that he has the best season of WAR by any 1B over the last 20 years (of course properly adjusted for the park-his D gives him an edge over the likes of Thomas or McGwire)-and have either had my observations ignored, or have gotten grief over it and this “Coors Effect.”
It’s like they see Denver as being part of some freakshow baseball universe (such as say Blernsball) that they can safely ignore, since what happens there must de facto be the result of the confluence of all sorts of wild and crazy effects that they can thus safely ignore as having happened in some lunatic parallel dimension that has no bearing on the actual game of baseball as it is played in the other 29 stadia.
I hate to say it, but Tulo isn’t getting anywhere near the Hall. He’ll be offered up, but that’s it. He’s 32 and I don’t see any 7-8 WAR seasons coming.
CURT SCHILLING Fifty-One Percent
Smoltz went in on the first ballot and he isn’t more than 75% as good as Schilling.
Disgraceful, by both the voters and the rest of the MLB media.
Journalists undervalue someone who thinks lynching journalists is funny? Imagine! Don’t worry though. They’re already preparing his plaque at the Crappy Meme Hall of Fame.
Odd that many people, including on this board, hate Schilling because of words, but love players who had serious actions (PEDs, violence, domestic assaults). To me, actions mean more than words so I easily discount anyone’s post-game blather.
I respect your opinion, but to me Schilling’s bigoted words are much worse than PEDs.
1. Don’t group PEDs in with ‘violence’ and ‘domestic assault’.
2. He bankrupted Rhode Island.
By fWAR, Smoltz and Schilling were identical (if you include hitting, Smoltz comes out ahead. If you include defense, Smoltz comes out farther ahead).
Smoltz had more innings and more starts despite being a closer for several years. Smoltz was also better in the postseason.
You can argue Schilling was better, I’d disagree, but you can make the case. But the 75% comment is not supported by their stats.
Hahahahaha
By what standard was Smoltz “better in the postseason”?
Raw win totals?
Schilling trounces him in ERA and beats him soundly in FIP…while spending all but one of his postseason appearances with Arizona and Boston, two of the most hitter friendly parks on the planet.
Even his .846 winning percentage blows Smoltz’s .789 out of the water.
If you’re trying to use Smoltz’s having four more wins to claim he’s better than one of the most dominant postseason pitchers of all time…you should really just count the rings.
Pour one out for Kevin Brown, too.
How many Canadians have HOF ballots? Walker is revered here and looked upon as the pinnacle of Canadian baseball so it surprises me that there hasn’t been more of a push to get him in.
I bet we will say the same about Votto 15 years from now, or whenever.
Votto is divisive even outside of being Canadian because he has always achieved value in a way that frankly annoys old school types. “Why doesn’t he hit more homers?” they ask. “Yeah all those walks and base hits are great, but you want guys that look like Votto to be putting up those RBI numbers!” they decry.
Votto is right up there with Raines for most unappreciated superstars in MLB history.
I think that Votto will get in, and comfortably. In his first 9 seasons, he’s at 46.7 fWAR, 47.3 bWAR. Even assuming major regression, you can safely assume another 20 WAR over the next 8 years he’s under contract; his skills should age well and that’s fairly conservative as is. That will put him firmly in the HOF crosshairs in 2029, when all the saber writers are credentialed and voting. The 2029 electorate should put him in no problem, I’d think. Or hope.
I’ve never understood the issue with Walker. Yeah, Coors inflated his stats. But you can’t just say ‘no one who plays in Colorado is eligible for the HOF.’ It’s one of the 30 MLB teams! And it’s not like he’s the only guy to play in a hitter’s park. It just seems so arbitrary to me, and makes it seem like people are just looking for reasons to exclude players, instead of looking for positive players and achievements to honor.
Chuck Klein says hello.
“Hall of Famers like Edgar Martinez”
Er…
If you don’t eat yer meat, you can’t have any pudding.
While Walker may be worthy of HoF, Vlad is a slam-dunk. The home/road slashes favour Vlad by a stretch, and he was 5-tool like Walker. How many players have 400+ career HR and under 1000 K’s? 5 in history, one being Vlad. How many batted at least .315 with over 1400 RBI’s and 1300 runs? Six at most, with one being Vlad (Other guys are ones such as Gehrig, Ruth, Foxx, Ott, Musial, those people). Vladimir is everything the Hall deserves. Not just great averages, great totals, always a winner in the “impact on winning games” column (6 Divisions in 7 years on teams with mediocre hitting/defence, above .500 in Montreal at least twice while MLB was trying hard to sink the team). Walker may be a HoF, Guerrero definitely is.
FUn with selective, arbitrary lists:
THe list of players with 2550 H, 590 2B and 350 HR:
Musial
Yaz
Aaron
Ripken
Pujols
Bonds
Beltre
. . . .and Luis Gonzalez
BTW, if you take it back all the way to the beginning in 1876, there are 19 guys in your second list of .315/1300/1400. If you limit it to post-dead ball (ie, after 1919) it’s 15. TO be fair, the only 3 in the last 50 years are Vlad, Miggy. . . .and Helton. (The most amazing thing about looking up that stat? Pujols’ terrible last couple years have dragged him out of that club as his career BA has dropped to .309. . . it was .328 after his 2011 season)
More fun with arbitrary lists:
The list of players with 300 HR, 300 SB and 100 3B:
Babe Ruth
Willie Mays
. . . .and Steve Finley
Errata I was mistaken about Ruth. He only had 123 SB. Started thinking about it after I posted that and realized that couldn’t be right
OK, one last one:
The list of guys who have hit .300 with 510 2B, 1100 R and 1100 RBI includes 31 guys and some of the greatest ever: Mays, Cobb, Musial, Aaron, Pujols and so forth. It also includes Mark Grace and Al Oliver. You know who it doesn’t include? Barry Bonds (.298 BA) and Babe Ruth (506 2B)
The problem with arbitrary lists like this is they take a guy who barely meets the arbitrary minimums that are set and lump them in with guys who have put together much, much higher numbers than Mr. Minimum. Meanwhile, as I just showed, it also excludes great players who far exceeded Mr. Minimum in multiple areas but fall just short in one single area.
Mark Grace had a fine career but not as good as Mays and Cobbs and not as good as Ruth and Bonds who aren’t even on the list.
Vlad had a fantastic career, but he wasn’t as great as Cobb or frankly even most of the guys on the .315/1300/1400 list.
I think we covered this in the “Vlad had 5 tools, didn’t always use them” part. Look at the base running and OF assists. Walker has HUGE edges there. Walker also had a great arm, he also didn’t routinely let singles turn into doubles, was far more accurate and a far better runner. It’s no contest. I love Vlad, but Walker goes in, too.
I definitely think a few things are hurting Walker, including people holding Coors too much against him, but also the crowded ballot,less than 2000 games, and barely 8000 plate appearances. I just think the whole home/road thing is way overblown, not as much these day with all the park adjusted stats, but still is to a point. His park adjusted stats are over the HOF bar as shown here and the voters still have to consider the Coors hangover the hitters have to deal with.
Another thing hardly anybody considers when just throwing out H/R stats are the hidden disadvantage it gives a players like a Walker/Helton/Holliday. Walker was a great hitter for the Expos, Helton would have been a great hitter anywhere, and Matt Holliday was a great hitter for the Cardinals.
When these guys play for the Rockies, no matters how good their adjusted stats are, it always come back to home and road splits. For Walkers career he didn’t get to hit on the road in Colorado to make his road stats look a little better like the other hitters in the NL West, he mostly got to hit in some of the toughest parks on the road: Candelstick/ATT, Qualcomm, Dodger Stadium, etc. Same for Helton and any Rockies hitters. If they weren’t good enough icheoverall it would show up in their adjusted stats like Bichette and Castilla.
“Not much separates him from Guerrero, and he does better than Hall of Famers like Edgar Martinez, Gary Sheffield and Tim Raines, whose offensive credentials are not in question.” But whose Hall of Fame statuses are…
If you vote for Walker, do you have to vote for Vlad?
Larry Walker and Duke Snider were extremely similar in a lot of career numbers.
Snider was elected by the writers, but it took 11 years. In their first 3 years on the ballot, Walker averaged a slightly higher vote share (about 22%-21%).
But while Snider gained about 5-10% from year 4 to induction, Walker’s share plunged in year 4 and has yet to get back where he started.
This may be a perfect example of how the PED backlog affects the non-slam-dunk HOF candidate.
(FWIW, Walker tops Snider in just about all advanced metrics, including bWAR, Jaws, Hall of Stats, OPS+…)
Don’t tell me what I have to do, Paul Swydan!
All I can say here is a huge THANK YOU for this article, Paul.
I am completely not impartial since Walker is one of my favorite players of all time, so I would be thrilled to see him get into the HoF. As an Expos fan I am most certainly also cheering for Vlad, but in my mind Walker was clearly the superior player. Your article has done a great job outlining the numerous ways that this is in fact the case.
Maybe being from Canada hurts him? Honestly, Americans are weird.
Dream scenario: Raines, Vlad, and Walker inducted together, with Trammell and Whitaker joining them as Veterans Committee inductees.
Too bad we have a traffic jam where Jeff Freaking Bagwell has had to wait forever for what should have been a no-brainer, first-ballot election, and Mike Mussina, and Curt Schilling, and …..
Expos such as Raines,Vlad,and Walker seem to always be undervalued.
This franchise had some great players,all the above should be HOFers.
Keris book,Up,Up and Away is a great history of this vastly under rated franchise.
funny, one of your first charts has a heading which I read as “career ROID stats”…and, of course, that cheating bastard balcoboy was the first name listed.
After looking at at Vlad and Walker’s peak years, about 8 straight for both players of 4.0 WAR or better, one question sprung to my mind: If Mike Trouts career ended after this coming season. Would he be a Hall of Famer? Assuming he again reaches about 9 WAR or so, that would put him at about 55-56 WAR for his career, with 6 straight seasons of ~8-11 WAR. Nutz.
Lack of longevity would certainly hurt fishboy but he has been considered top 3 or 4, if not the very best, player in all of major leagues in each season. Even in their peak seasons, was vlad and walker considered top 3 or 4 each and every season? HoF’ers, imho, should have a peak in which they are considered among the top of the top. Fishboy definitely deserves to be in such a group.