Imagining a World in Which Barry Bonds Retired Before 1999

For the next five minutes, convince yourself that Barry Bonds retired following the 1998 season. Perhaps he suffered a bad injury in the offseason prior to spring training in 1999. Maybe he got tired of playing baseball and wanted to become a farmer. Make up whatever fantastic story you want to about his life after 1998 — just don’t have it include playing major league baseball.

We’re focusing on 1998, of course, because that’s the final year Bonds was considered “clean” by most sources. For our purposes, I’m not going to try to pinpoint specific months or dates: 1999 was the first season Bonds had Greg Anderson as a full time personal trainer, the man who supposedly introduced him to certain PEDs, and there are books written about this subject that can inform a reader on specific timing far better than I can here. For today, the offseason after the 1998 is the delineating line.

——–

It’s the winter of 1998. K-Ci & JoJo are on the top of the charts with “All My Life.” In theaters, You’ve Got Mail reigns supreme. When the news of Barry Bonds’ retirement breaks, newspaper columns talk about how incredible his 13-year career was — often juxtaposed to the outsized personality he showed in the clubhouses of the Pirates and Giants. SportsCenter is particularly watchable, and Stuart Scott and Rich Eisen reflect on what might have been: about how, if only he were able to play for a few more years, Bonds could have been the first player in baseball history to hit 500 home runs and steal 500 bases. What an honor to have been able to watch this guy play, they say to the camera.

Following the sudden shock of his retirement, writers and analysts turn to another subject: Bonds’ Hall of Fame chances. They tally his counting statistics through the 1998 season and compare them against every player since 1871:

Barry Bonds, 1986-1998, All-Time Ranks
Count All-Time Rank
Home Runs 411 26th
RBI 1216 93rd
Runs 1364 75th
Stolen Bases 445 45th
AVG/OBP .290/.411 —
Awards 3 MVPs, 8 Gold Gloves —
SOURCE: FanGraphs
*Ranks include all player seasons from 1871-1998.

Given the exceptional power and speed numbers, as well as his stellar defense, Bonds has the statistics to get into Cooperstown on one of his first few tries. However, there is one issue that raises a flag for voters: his character. Always making the game about himself, Bonds’ history is littered with showing up coaches, arguing about his contracts, and always needing to to be the center of attention. After a couple years of not getting in, comparisons to Dick Allen’s situation starts to surface, but finally — after Bonds has paid his character penance — he’s voted in. A few years later, analysts run the numbers on the best players in history up to their age-34 season with a new metric, Wins Above Replacement. Bonds is the 12th-best player in baseball history up to 1998 by WAR for players aged 34 and under, and he ends up 19th overall with no age cap.

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Even though he retired with seemingly so much left to give on the field (he put up 8.5 WAR in his final season, 1998), Bonds is a clear Hall of Famer.

——–

What a pleasing fairytale this is: Bonds, the wiry wunderkind, one of the best players to ever live despite never playing in a game after he was 35.

This is where everything falls apart and we get hung up, because hey, this isn’t real. Bonds did have a career after 1998, and it was so utterly dominant and record-breaking that he became the face of an entire PED-fueled era of baseball. He was always outspoken and a questionable teammate, and then he “cheated.” To clear one of those Hall of Fame hurdles is hard enough; there is no evidence that anyone has, or will ever, to clear two.

There’s another problem, too: a big chunk of us think the Hall of Fame either is, or should be, all about a player’s performance on the field. Around this time every year, we dig up career stats comparing Hall of Famers with those players who are eligible, trying to draw concrete parallels between them, and we get upset when it doesn’t work out.

That’s because the current process for induction into the Hall of Fame is subjective compared to the way we value and analyze players on a daily, monthly, and yearly basis. It is separated – almost entirely – from what most baseball writers do for their everyday jobs. And the one driving force behind that issue is the “character clause” that has been so famously referenced in recent years.

In theory, including a player’s “character” in their candidacy for the Hall of Fame might make the process more inclusionary — allowing players who, despite possibly sub-par numbers, were extraordinary assets to their team in a way that can’t quite be measured. It’s quite obvious, however, that it has mainly had the opposite effect.

It’s important to know where the character clause finds its origins, and what implications that has on player candidacy. We can see the wording for the clause in some of the first rules for Hall of Fame voting outlined in 1936. This historical excerpt is from a letter written in 2012 by Brad Horn, director of communications for the Hall of Fame:

“In August 1944, a Hall of Fame memo outlined the informal policy that had existed for Hall of Fame voting from its origins in 1936. Paul S. Kerr, then treasurer for the National Baseball Museum and Hall of Fame, stated that Alexander Cleland, instrumental in the voting process since the Hall’s first election in 1936, listed general rules that ‘those worthy of Hall of Fame election should be selected from the ranks for ability, character and their general contribution to baseball in all respects.’”

The last line has been updated in a very small way, now reading:

“Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the team(s) on which the player played.”

In essence, baseball’s Hall of Fame is still using voting instructions from pre-integration, reserve-clause-era baseball. At best, it’s antiquated; at worst, it’s biased for obvious reasons. The 10-player voting cap on ballots is bad and needs reform, yes, but these voting criteria cut to the core of baseball’s uneasy relationship with those that don’t play the right way, no matter their talent or performance. It is the bat-flip argument played out on a grand, important scale, with countless legacies at stake.

Perhaps this is the number one reason why we need to adjust our expectations for the Hall of Fame, accepting that player performance truly is only a part of the puzzle. We can compare stats all we want, but performance will simply never serve as a trump card for the intangible, malleable constructs of character and integrity. That is, without a doubt, unfair — especially given the cultural biases embedded in American culture and thus the voter base. As fans, we’re stuck in a terrible limbo between wanting respect to be paid to our heroes and annually suffering through a process that is so obviously exclusionary, broken, and filled with an arbitrary sense of moralism.

Two days ago, Dave Cameron wrote about Ken Griffey Jr. and his greatness. This particular point resonated:

“Griffey is perhaps the primary example for why peak performance should matter more than longevity when discussing the best players in the game’s storied history.”

It’s an important argument in favor of Griffey as an obvious Hall of Famer, and it’s doubly important for Bonds. It shouldn’t matter what he did after 1998: take away the steroids and the 70-plus home run season, and you’re still left with one of the best baseball players who ever lived. That seems like it should be the trump card. That should be his ticket to a plaque.

Yet here we are, waiting for a systemic change that might never come, hoping our favorite scraps cast off the ballot will be one day picked up an adjunct committee. That’s a problem. The bigger problem for baseball and Hall of Fame voters is that bat flips aren’t going to stop, and moral relativism is alive and well in Cooperstown, and no one has ever been truly clean — not even a make-believe Barry Bonds who retired in 1998.





Owen Watson writes for FanGraphs and The Hardball Times. Follow him on Twitter @ohwatson.

89 Comments
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BubbaMember since 2016
10 years ago

A HOF without Bonds (and Clemens and ARod) won’t be that relavent. Might as well change it to “The Hall Of Some Of The Best Players Of All Time, Who We Though Were Nice At The Time, Sorry About Kirby Puckett.”

NatsFan73
10 years ago
Reply to  Bubba

To be fair, a HOF with those guys is not exactly super relevant either.

Sean C
10 years ago
Reply to  NatsFan73

So none of this matters, and we should just close the whole thing up and call it quits because you can never make everyone happy?

rounders
10 years ago
Reply to  Bubba

Somebody explain to me how journalist, especially baseball writers, can vote on character and integrity.

francis_soyer
10 years ago
Reply to  rounders

It’s called “let’s add in some subjective BS so we can get a little more re2pect (sic) and make ourselves more relevant than we really are”

MikeI
10 years ago
Reply to  rounders

It was clearly a different era, when there was still an attempt at character and integrity. If we can’t reach it than why try right? I’m sure we’re all offended by that comment.

AaronC
10 years ago
Reply to  Bubba

As opposed to what, ‘The Hall of Numbers, where everybody is inducted via spreadsheet?’ What a fun and exciting place!

It should be the Hall of Heroes. The Hall of Players who Elevated the Game Itself.

With Clemens, and especially Bonds, their story absolutely includes being good at baseball, but it also absolutely includes being an embarrassment to baseball. Same for Rose and A-Rod. Their accomplishments can be noted, and even celebrated; that’s what the record books do.

But the PLAYERS themselves cheated, lied, and perhaps most damningly, did so in public via lawsuits, congressional testimony, and taking their bullshit straight to the people who just want to see them play baseball. That’s what separates these guys from the Piazzas and the Bagwells who get suspected, but never once took the narrative away from what happened between the lines.

Maybe Mickey Mantle was a drunk, and every player for a whole generation was on amphetamines. But what happens largely behind closed doors is far different that if one of those guys had come out and flipped the script into dragging everything out into the open and putting the institution of baseball on the defensive.

Maybe I’m being an old codger about this, and in reality, I’m mostly ambivalent about Bonds and Clemens. But I really do have a hard time with the suggestion that they are such obvious HoF PEOPLE that all debate should be shut down. Numbers are numbers, players are players, and I don’t think it’s unfathomable to make that distinction.

NBarnes
10 years ago
Reply to  AaronC

So, you’re a charter member of the Kick Ty Cobb Out Of The Hall Of Fame Committee, then?

Ebenezer
10 years ago
Reply to  NBarnes

And in favor of kicking out Kenesaw Mountain Landis, who prevented blacks from playing in MLB while he was commissioner.

AngelsLakersFan
10 years ago
Reply to  AaronC

“It’s only cheating if you get caught”

Sabometrics
10 years ago
Reply to  AaronC

Mantle was, definitely, a drunk.

devo1d
10 years ago
Reply to  AaronC

Bonds and Clemens dragged everything out in the open? Or things were illegally leaked by the federal government? That’s a bold strategy, Cotton. Not one I would advise, but let’s see how it plays out for them.

MikeI
10 years ago
Reply to  Bubba

Why is there no respect for league rules, not to mention the law. Is there no repercussion for cheating? The guys rich because he cheated, should he be in the Hall to? I’m sure the Hall is irrelevant, which is why guys are crying at the induction ceremony. Why do we as fans and media think we know so much about something we’ve never been that successful at?

Hurtlocker
10 years ago
Reply to  Bubba

The saddest part of this whole PED saga was how really fantastic Bonds and Clemens were without PED’s. Makes you wonder why an athlete with so much talent would think they need an additional edge?

david k
10 years ago
Reply to  Hurtlocker

Well, you saw the numbers Bonds put up before and after PEDs, it went from Great to Amazing. Who doesn’t look for ways to improve? Isn’t that the American way? Do you say Warren Buffet should be satisfied with the billions he already has and shouldn’t try to invest and make even more money?

As for Clemens, I think his numbers were slipping around this time and he just wanted to continue to compete at a high level, so his situation was slightly different from Bonds’.

I find myself on the fence regarding the HOF and PED users. I understand the “moral character” part of the criteria, but clearly we have precedent of that being brushed aside before. This is a Hall of FAME, and these guys were about as FAMOUS as they come. Should they let them in and then give them a big asterisk at their plaque site? If so, who gets the asterisk and who doesn’t, since many weren’t proven for sure to be users? If I have to lean one way, I say let them all in, but I don’t really have a strong argument for it, just my opinion.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
10 years ago

Is this as easy to do with Clemens? If anything, it would seem that Bonds would have a higher percentage of the vote. I guess being uppity is worse than being a raging asshole?

rayguMember since 2024
10 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

why should that matter? Babe Ruth wasn’t the greatest of guys either.Nor Mickey Mantle. I am sure they aren’t the only ones.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
10 years ago
Reply to  raygu

I don’t think it should. For the record I think both of these guys should already be in the Hall. My point is that I can’t really think of a reason for why crusty old baseball writers vote for Clemens and not Bonds other than finding Bonds’ “personality” more upsetting than Clemens, if you know what I’m saying.

ashlandateam
10 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Clemens is a southern white dude who – in a world where no one cares about PEDs would be considered a ‘gun-slinging good old boy’ a la Nolan Ryan (whose reputation is vastly greater than his career production). Even with the bridge burning in Boston, etc. – Clemens is exactly the sort of guy crusty old (white) writers love.

Bonds is none of those things.

B N
10 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

@ashlandateam: I agree that Clemens definitely gets a pass from writers who didn’t seem to follow him. Race is definitely a factor. Clemens also did more media campaigning. On the converse, Bonds seemed to build solid private relationships instead (e.g., a trainer and friend willing to spend a year in jail, rather than testify) and built roots with SF. Among home team writers, I would think that Bonds might have more support than Clemens.

After all, as someone from the Boston area who grew up with Clemens around, I assure you that he was not even the most beloved of writers even before the bridge burning. Even in Houston, which would seem like the most obvious place for him to get great support (big playoff run help), he had the black eye of not traveling with the team (which, despite being fairly rational, cost some points). I don’t recall him exactly growing deep roots for the Jays or Yankees either.

I think one metric of character in the modern era would be: “How many teams would fight to have that player wear their cap in the HOF?” In that light, Bonds might actually be in better shape than Clemens: SF would fight hard for him. For Clemens, who? The Astros? Writers should think on that question when they think about character.

Sean C
10 years ago
Reply to  raygu

I hear that Ty Cobb was a nice upstanding citizen.

Shirtless George Brett
10 years ago
Reply to  Sean C

Most of the thing you probably “know” about Cobb are almost certainly untrue. Thank Al Stump for it.

dl80Member since 2020
10 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

In terms of stats, Clemens would also get in. Up through 1998 (I’m not sure where to cut off, but I picked that for consistency with the Bonds argument), Clemens was 233-124 with a 2.95 ERA and 3153 Ks. He was 8th in career WAR at 95, fourth in K/9 among anyone with 2000 IP (though Randy Johnson would eventually pass him). Second in K-BB% (behind Koufax), first in ERA- (just ahead of Walter Johnson), first in FIP-, 55th in Wins, and 10th in Ks.

He would have been a top 10-15 pitcher all time if he’d retired after 1998, instead of top 3-5 all time.

He’d still have gotten in for sure.

NATS FanMember since 2018
10 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Clemens Juiced in high school if you believe an old uncle of mine.

redsoxu571
10 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Unfortunately, with Clemens the “most likely clean to this point” cutoff is after the 1996 season, not the 1998 one. When you put up the best season of your career (a career to that point including an MVP and 3 Cy Youngs) at age 34, not coincidentally the first season after you leave your lifetime franchise after that team’s GM dubbed you to be on the decline, you can read the tea leaves.

Consider that you noted his 95 career WAR after 1998…19 of that came in just those last two seasons. 20% of your career WAR at ages 34 and 35, even while your career had been clearly headed to its expected decline phase until those seasons?

free-range turducken
10 years ago

I’m looking forward to the sequel, “Imagining Victor Conte, Felipe Crespo, and Melky Cabrera’s Future Website Designer Walking Into A Bar”

outliarbaseball.com
10 years ago

You forgot to mention all the additional MVP awards Albert Pujols would have won.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
10 years ago

Andruw Jones, too, in a roundabout way. Pujols won in 2005 over Andruw largely because he’d been #2 to Bonds so many times (the .067 lead in batting average helped too). If Pujols had already won a couple MVPs, I’d bet Andruw and his 51 dingers would have won.

dl80Member since 2020
10 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Interesting. And that might be the difference between Andruw getting in or not, or at least having to wait.

redsoxu571
10 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Pujols had a higher SLG despite Jones’s 51 HRs, to say nothing of an 83(!!!) point Pujols advantage in OBP. Considering that STL won 10 more games than ATL (and 100 games overall), while many would say that should not be relevant it definitely was at the time, and I would call that the final clincher for a Pujols win (though Jones still MIGHT have won, if voter fatigue on Pujols had set in…I just wouldn’t assign that the most likely outcome).

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
10 years ago
Reply to  redsoxu571

The Braves won their division. I’ve never heard of raw team wins as being a factor in MVP voting. It certainly wasn’t when Cabrera won over Trout the first time.

Mike K
10 years ago

I’m fine with including “character” as part of the HOF criteria. The problem is how it is being applied. Writers have been using it as an excuse for not voting players in.

If you think about it…if Barry Bonds had retired after 1998, and two years later it came out that he was a serial murderer, would anyone have an issue w/ him not being in the HOF? Probably not. I don’t think steroid use quite fits that bar though.

Now, Palmeiro (70 WAR) and Biggio (66 WAR) are essentially equivalent, and both are near the bottom of what you (or I anyway) think of “sure fire” HOF by the stats…is there enough difference in character there that most people would be OK w/ Biggio in and Palmeiro out? These are the levels where I think character would normally come into play.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike K

Seriously. When was the last time you heard someone talk about the injustice of Palmeiro not being in the HoF? The next time I hear that will be the first.

olethrosMember since 2020
10 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Palmeiro should absolutely be in. 500/3000 is first ballot numbers for anyone else.

Self-righteous baby boomer distinctions between drugs are fucking stupid.

The Ghost of Johnny Dickshot
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike K

What? So if a guy doesn’t want to talk to reporters, is short with them, and is an overall jerk, but their performance on the field is out of this world they aren’t a HoFer? Really?

I get a guy who’s a wife beater, murderer, drug user, etc but just because he’s a jerk, cmon man.

redsoxu571
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike K

The difference between Biggio and Palmeiro is that people strongly believe that Palmeiro only even got that far thanks to steroid use, and so assume that he would not have been HOF worthy without the steroids.

The point of this article with Bonds is that he was clearly a HOF performer before he began his likely steroid use, and so his exclusion is JUST based on the character/cheating side of things. With Palmeiro, it’s a combination of character and that the steroid use got him over the bar.

Also, he was left with a lot of egg on his face when he wagged his finger, period, at a committee and, indirectly, all of us.

bjsguess
10 years ago

I agree with the premise of the article. Bonds was definitely HOF material prior to 1999. My larger issue is that we don’t know when Bonds started using. The belief is that he started in 1999 but that is questionable. What if it was 1994? That would change the debate quite a bit.

I really wish these guys would just come forward and say, “Look, I used steroids. I started in the ‘x’ season and stopped using in the ‘x’ season.” Even if they are lying about specific dates, I think the majority of the public would be more than willing to let things move on. It’s the continuing lying that makes this issue linger.

My quick analogy is children. I know my kid took a cookie from the Oreo pack. It doesn’t really matter much. I’ve gotten over the fact that it was the last Oreo. However, it really, really irritates me when my kid won’t own up to it. If he just says, “Yes daddy, I took the last Oreo” we move on after a brief scolding. However, when he continues to lie about it I just get more angry. I think fans and writers are looking for the tinniest act of contrition so that we can move forward. Unfortunately, Bonds and others refuse, which makes this debate continue on into perpetuity.

ashlandateam
10 years ago
Reply to  bjsguess

Counterpoint: Mark McGwire, who did precisely what you’re asking for and has gained zero traction in either the public eye or the HOF voting.

dl80Member since 2020
10 years ago
Reply to  ashlandateam

But McGwire wasn’t nearly the hitter Bonds was, either before or after steroids. THere’s a good argument to make that McGwire would have been only a slightly above average hitter (along the lines of Dave Kingman) if he hadn’t done steroids, if Canseco’s timeline is to be believed.

ashlandateam
10 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Well, that statement alone helps bolster the point that an apology and a timeline aren’t enough. McGwire apologized and gave dates he doped that didn’t encompass his whole career (he said that he used them to help recover from injuries). McGwire – by his apology – was far better than Kingman.

Of course, you don’t have to believe his apology. But the original comment was ‘if these guys apologize, we’ll move on.’ That hasn’t been the case with McGwire, because now the story is ‘well, we don’t believe his apology, assume he used his whole career, and call him Dave Kingman.’

Walter
10 years ago
Reply to  dl80

“McGwire wasn’t nearly the hitter Bonds was, either before or after steroids.”

Really? Without steroids, they were likely pretty similar. Maybe a slight edge to Bonds, but not a whole lot.

B N
10 years ago
Reply to  dl80

@ashlandateam: The apology does help though. McGuire is back in the sport as a hitting coach for his old team. I have trouble imagining that happening if he was stonewalling like some of the others.

Bonds? After years of hanging around, he’s now hitting coach for the Marlins? Clemens hangs around the Astros a lot, but I haven’t heard of any official postings. An apology won’t help much for the Hall, but it’s still good for the fanbase and I don’t think that it hurts.

I will also note that for hitters, it’s hard to say that it’s just for injury recovery. A record stands for over 30 years and then two guys break it in the same season? McGuire can say it’s for injury recovery, but Sosa and he were in a HR race because they were suddenly so “healthy?” It’s hard when your most obvious accomplishment is obviously tainted.

TheGrandslamwichMember since 2020
10 years ago
Reply to  bjsguess

The problem is that people will lie like hell to protect their reputations. A-Rod gave a time frame when he used PEDs and we all know how that turned out. Nice guy Andy Pettitte gave a very concise admission of when he and his gym buddy Clemens used, but recanted it all to get Clemens off the hook. Hell, there were rumors of Ryan Braun and teammates being scolded by their coach for injecting each other back in the Cape Cod league.

My point is, there just isn’t a way for people to know. And players will protect their best interests. We will all have to take players admissions with some skepticism.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
10 years ago

…Pettitte testified that Clemens used HGH.

frugalscottMember since 2025
10 years ago
Reply to  bjsguess

Thanks for this. It’s the point I’ve considered all along and have heard very few people consider. Bonds wanted to be loved. He felt his father had been underappreciated and disrespected and part of his motivation was to make up for that. If you look at a lot of his press conferences, this comes out a good bit. My thought is that it is every bit as plausible that he started trying to tweak his ‘workout routine’ once he saw how revered Canseco became for being the first 40-40 guy.

It’s just as possible that he started using much earlier than suspected and he just needed Anderson to help him find the right mix as it is that he never used before Anderson.

I also feel that the way things are unfolding is the perfect solution. Rose, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc are not banned from the Hall. There are displays there that celebrate some of their accomplishments. They are mentioned and recognized for things they did in the game. They simply don’t have plaques. Given what we know (Rose) and what we don’t know that we don’t know (the PED guys), that seems about right.

The Ghost of Johnny Dickshot
10 years ago
Reply to  bjsguess

How long does it take for your head to grow?

devo1d
10 years ago
Reply to  bjsguess

Why can’t the kid have the last Oreo? That’s messed up.

redsoxu571
10 years ago
Reply to  bjsguess

My mother always said that there is most nothing that I could do wrong that could not be forgiven (and pretty easily so), but that lying not only made it MUCH worse, but could be near-unforgivable. Wanting to avoid a decline phase and keep up with other users is a very human mistake. Prancing around like a god and then playing us for fools even when exposed, on the other hand…not so much.

ashland, McGwire is not a good counterpoint. As noted, Bonds is viewed as a HOF even without steroids, and so is being kept out JUST due to character/cheating. Many question whether McGwire would have a HOF worthy career without his steroid use, and so character isn’t really factoring into it.

In fact, as with Andy Pettitte, I would argue that the public largely doesn’t assign major character flaws to McGwire. Also, keep in mind that McGwire kept largely silent for a long time even once exposed, which is a form of lying too, and so his response was not “precisely” what bjsguess was advocating.

AutomatedTellerMember since 2016
10 years ago

Sure, Bonds would have made it in had he retired after 1998. Also, if he hadn’t taken steroids in an attempt to go from the best player of his generation to the best player ever.

But he did do that. The world we live in is a world where Bonds cheated. It’s world where athletes taking steroids warranted a paragraph in the STATE OF THE UNION speech.

I think it’s perfectly reasonable to punish Bonds for cheating by keeping him out of the Hall. It’s not like he faced any actual punishment for it. He made a ton of money.

I also, btw, think there is a reasonable argument that he should go in, regardless. But it’s not that “hey, he was great before he cheated, so it doesn’t matter what he did after that” – it’s that no one really thought it was cheating when he did it, so he should go in.

BMac
10 years ago

When someone is caught cheating, we never assume that it was the first time. We assume that it was the first time CAUGHT, and that previous cheating likely occurred.

Ace up the sleeve playing poker? Nobody is going to assume it was the first time it was there.

If you have the character to cheat, it is likely you had it before you were caught.

If illustrious former greats had used PEDs, what might they have achieved? We don’t quite know, but certainly they would have done more. It’s so silly to talk about the achievements of someone abusing PEDs in relation to the stats of those who obviously did not (obvious since PEDs were not even available).

No PED cheaters should ever be in the HOF. Period. Their stats don’t count, their character is wanting. Without a level playing field, sport becomes WWF. (With apologies to those fans of WWF…)

Deelron
10 years ago
Reply to  BMac

Our illustrious greats did use PEDs, there’s plenty of evidence of greenie usage.

Additionally many of our greats would not have done better, in fact many would have done worse, particularly since many of the more marginal greats excelled in the long run because they were able to stay healthier then their peers (frequently through little to no additional effort), something which PEDs could very much help to mitigate, not to mention other advantages compared to a more modern era.

With so many variables from medical advances to a much higher standard of competition overall, it’s foolish to presume they’re certainly do better.

devo1d
10 years ago
Reply to  Deelron

Picking nits, but I agree with most of your argument.

I don’t get where the notion comes from that steroids or PEDs (particularly HGH and anabolic steroids) cause injuries. If they are misused, that can be the case (tendons and ligaments are unable to withstand the force generated or bulk being carried).Just like you can overdose from taking too much vitamin C.

They are mostly for recovery. AIDS patients, cancer patients, growth disorders. Especially HGH, which allows you to heal faster. If used properly, they are extremely useful.

I’m sure there were plenty of players that misused them and suffered injuries. But if you look at a lot of the guys who got popped, it was for recovery. They were aging and wanted to be healthy all 162. They weren’t huge monsters.

The congressional hearings in 2007 were a joke. We have families saying steroids killed their kids and it turned into an absolute charade. Vitamin C kills more people.

francis_soyer
10 years ago

Considering if was a Bush State of The Union address, whatever he said was probably less true than anything Bonds said on the subject.

Eric B
10 years ago

Bonds and Clemens will make it in their last year of eligibility because deep down voters know they should be in the hall of fame, but want to take their pound of flesh by making them wait.

I completely understand this mentality even if I don’t agree with it. The analyst in me says they should be in on the first ballot, while the fan in me says let them squirm. I don’t like what that says about my fandom and I really hope baseball comes to term with the steroid era and votes them in next year.

Original Greaser Bob
10 years ago

Really enjoyed this but there are a few things you should clean up.

1) Barry Bonds retired after the 2007 season

2) Barry Bonds hasn’t been elected into the baseball hall of fame

3) I think you meant Grover Cleveland or maybe Cl-eland, as Chrome auto correct
suggests, not Cleland Alexander.

Otherwise, thoroughly enjoyed this!

Excelsior,
CHD&WB

BranchRickey11937Member since 2016
10 years ago

What I’d like to see is how Bonds would rank if he had followed a normal aging curve after 1998– and by “normal” I mean the aging curve of other immortals like Aaron, Mays, Mantle, Robinson and Williams. What would Steamer or Zips have projected based on his stats and comparables after the 1998 season?

The Ghost of Johnny Dickshot
10 years ago

Like Griffey Jr?

AngelsLakersFan
10 years ago

Am I the only one who would like to see the stats revised to estimate what his career would’ve looked like if he had take steroids his whole career?

Mahoney
10 years ago

Look no further, I’m about to do it for his HR and WAR (though with a little cheating):

Eyeballing his numbers, his 1999 was about the same as you’d expect with a normal aging curve, 2000 was about 2x what you’d expect, and 2001+ was about 3x what you’d expect (takes a while to hit maximum effect).

So if he starts in his rookie season, he still has 16 HR and 3.3 WAR for that season, 50 HR and 10.6 WAR for 1987, and 72 HR and 16.2 WAR for 1988. After signing a record 18 year, $21.6 million/year deal with the Giants in 1993, Bonds breaks his own MLB records with 138 HR and 31.5 WAR.

Upon his retirement in 2007 due to complications from megalocephaly and mastitis, Bonds owns the all-time career marks of 1,619 HR and 361.4 WAR (along with countless others)

devo1d
10 years ago

Hopefully he would have aged like Mays or Aaron. He always took care of himself before PEDs. Would not have been shocked if he played to 40, but with some of those years being at 3-6 WAR instead of double digits. I would have liked to see that. As a kid in the Bay Area, I started doing the math at the end of the 2000 season and was just hoping to see him get 500/500 for his career. Obviously I had no idea what was in store.

He had a ton of knowledge and still would’ve been an OBP machine, less homers and probably less games. That’s the tough part and the real quandary for professional athletes. When you are in your physical prime, you have so much to learn and are playing on instinct in your early 20s.

By the time you have your craft mastered, your body betrays you. I think that’s the biggest thing about PEDs, you are healthy and strong when your knowledge is at it’s absolute peak. Bonds, maybe one of the most knowledgable hitters and players ever, was (relatively) healthy when most began their decline.

Mahoney
10 years ago
Reply to  devo1d

That sounds about right to me.

Funny thing is, if I take the aggressive, tongue-in-cheek estimate I made above and apply the same logic to translate Bonds’s career without steroids, he’d still have had 559 HR and 124 WAR for his career. Realistically, he’d probably have done better than that, enough that he probably could have stuck around a long time as a DH, at least to hit the 600 career HR mark.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
10 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

Yup.

With Bonds, it really does boil down to his transforming himself from Willie Mays into Babe Ruth.

Jeff the Troll
10 years ago

Drug use in baseball has been prevalent for decades:

https://sites.google.com/site/brettbushthesis/chapter-4/amphetamine-steroid-era/amphetamines

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/sports/baseball/28chass.html?_r=1&

Excluding the PED guys, while letting the greenie guys in exposes all of these HOF exclusions as media hype BS.

Shirtless George Brett
10 years ago
Reply to  Jeff the Troll

Well except for the fact that the gorge between PED’s and amphetamines is so big it could reside in a state park.

Most studies show that amphetamines actually make athletic performance worse. What they actually effect is perception (they make you THINK you are performing better). PED’s, on the other hand, work. Completely and unequivocally.

Equating someone who did recreational drugs with someone who had a very specific program of designer chemicals designed to specifically improve athletic performance seems absurd.

But that’s just me.

noseeumMember since 2020
10 years ago

Recreational drugs? Greenies were taken to stay awake and energized during the marathon of the regular season. There was nothing recreational about them.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
10 years ago
Reply to  noseeum

Yup. I think they’re a bigger reason for the decline than the steroids.

35 year olds can’t do 162 games.

dpratMember since 2017
10 years ago

I need to read these studies. Citations, please? Because I suspect the biggest “gorge” is between what you think “most studies show” and what studies actually show.

Doug LampertMember since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  dprat

And regardless, the people taking greenies believed they were illegally taking a performance enhancing drug.

Same as the guys taking the more modern drugs.

If one of these is so wrong and immoral it gets you excluded from the club, then both of them are. If not, then not. “But the more modern methods of cheating probably work better!” isn’t a reason to only exclude one group of cheaters.

Shirtless George Brett
10 years ago
Reply to  dprat

I need to read these studies. Citations, please? Because I suspect the biggest “gorge” is between what you think “most studies show” and what studies actually show.

If only there was this massive, easily searchable source of information where one could look for such things.

Amphetamines may provide some minor, short-term benefits. Current research shows that 10-30 mg methamphetamine may improve reaction time, and cognitive function, increase the feelings of alertness, decrease a sense of fatigue and increase euphoria. But this also came with a tendency to make more high-risk choices. The researches also stated that at a higher dose, they expected subjects to experience agitation, an inability to focus attention on divided attention tasks, inattention, restlessness, motor excitation, increased reaction time, and time distortion, depressed reflexes, poor balance and coordination, and an inability to follow directions.

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/performanceenhancingdrugs/a/Amphetamines.htm

So basically a small and precise does MIGHT increase some aspects of performance in the short team. But most likely the guys taking handfulls of greenies in the locker room were/are doing themselves more harm then good.

output gap
10 years ago
Reply to  dprat

@ Shirtless George:

That’s true of the average person. Not necessarily MLB level athletes. For example. Chris Davis without adderall 2014 vs Chris Davis with adderall 2015.

Mahoney
10 years ago
Reply to  dprat

@output gap:

Your Chris Davis Adderall analogy is less about the difference between elite athletes and the average person. It’s more about the difference between a specially tailored medication for a specific condition and a generic amphetamine taken for an overall stimulant effect. If Davis truly has ADHD, a proper dosage of Adderall could easily be the difference between AAAA and All-Star. If he doesn’t, it’s probably as helpful as Red Bull.

FunFella13Member since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  dprat

@ShirtlessGeorge, meth (methamphetamine) is not the same drug as greenies (amphetamines a.k.a. speed or Adderall). You’re using notes about meth to claim people doing a lot of speed is more harmful than helpful for concentration.

devo1d
10 years ago

Which studies? I’d like to read those. Amphetamines help you to focus and stay energized.Not that either of those would be valuable in baseball which is why they aren’t classified as PEDs….

wait…

I agree, they are different. One involves strength. The other energy and focus, to say which is more valuable is incredibly hard to do. We do have an idea of which was more wide-spread.

It sounds like the studies you are reading involve crystal meth, which alters your perception and can lead to hallucination. The gap between greenies and crystal meth is also pretty big.

Barney Coolio
10 years ago

The author asks us to imagine that Bonds retired after 1998, and that we can make up our own narrative: career ending injury, desire to become a farmer…

But I think that the reason he retired after 1998 matters immensely for the HOF. If he dies in a plane crash on his way to some humanitarian relief project a la Roberto Clemente, he’s an automatic lock for the HOF no matter how many reporters he pissed off in his career.

If he has an injury a la Puckett, he’s probably still in.

If he retired to become a farmer, I think he would have to wait. Some voters might punish him for not completing his baseball career.

If he retires and says, “I’m retiring because I only wanted to be a baseball HOFer, not a baseball player. So, I will now dedicate my life to signing baseball cards for money and touting my HOF case!” He might have to wait the entire time, or might not ever make the HOF.

francis_soyer
10 years ago
Reply to  Barney Coolio

Koufax basically went the ‘farmer’ route.

Barry Sanders did it in the NFL.

They had no problems making their respective Halls.

devo1d
10 years ago
Reply to  francis_soyer

Koufax was injured. His arm was shot.

Sanders was a Detroit Lion for 11 years and wanted to be shot.

John Elway
10 years ago
Reply to  devo1d

LMHAO!!!!!

Sabometrics
10 years ago

Sounds like we should treat the character clause the same way we treat the 3/5 clause.

JamesFanMember since 2018
10 years ago

You might as well not have a rule in a sport unless you actually enforce it. Maybe what Bonds did was illegal, but if EVERYBODY was doing it and the enforcing body couldn’t enforce it, you are going to punish a whole era of people because of the failings of the enforcing body? You can’t tell who might have gone to the hall while being clean if they were surrounded by a bunch of dopers. At the same time, you can’t really tell who the dopers were since there was such weak enforcement.

My preference would be to let them in and have an era of PED use or have the commentary of the player detail the investigations. That is a critical part of baseball history and shouldn’t be ignored.

devo1d
10 years ago
Reply to  JamesFan

I think that’s definitely going to be the case if and when it happens. Particularly with Bonds and Clemens. Those investigations are public record as opposed to the speculation surrounding Bagwell and Piazza.

olethrosMember since 2020
10 years ago
Reply to  JamesFan

“You might as well not have a rule in a sport”

Until 2005, they didn’t have a rule about steroids and amphetamines.

jdbolickMember since 2016
10 years ago

It doesn’t matter when Bonds started using PEDs or if he would have made the Hall of Fame based on what he accomplished before that. A cheater is a cheater. A straight-A student doesn’t get a lesser punishment for cheating on a test than a C-student. Bonds, Clemens, and Rose are all part of the Hall of Fame already, but they absolutely do not deserve enshrinement due to their own choices to undermine the integrity of the game. Faith in the legitimacy of a sport is essential to that sport’s survival, and therefore there is no greater crime within the sport than to violate that faith.

Mahoney
10 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Upvoted your comment and Steve’s comment above yours. Both well-stated points to ponder in the debate about PED users and the HOF.

devo1d
10 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

That’s fair, but do we remove guys who took greenies? Do we remove guys who perposely kept minorities out of baseball until after WWII? Vehement racists like Ty Cobb or Nap Lajoie (among MANY others)? Is Kirby Puckett out, or are you safe if your transgressions were discovered after you got in?

I don’t think so. I think the HOF is the history of baseball, good and bad. If those people stay in, you are walking a very slippery slope.

I agree they still have a place in terms of displays and memorabilia. But if enshrinement is the issue, there are far worse examples in the HOF than Clemens, Bonds or Rose.

jdbolickMember since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  devo1d

That’s fair, but do we remove guys who took greenies?

Of course not. Steroids have a dramatically larger physiological effect on performance than amphetamines. There are medical studies that prove that definitively, but we should be able to grasp that simply from the way that the ’90s broke the record books. Steroids put the legitimacy of the game at risk.

I agree they still have a place in terms of displays and memorabilia. But if enshrinement is the issue, there are far worse examples in the HOF than Clemens, Bonds or Rose.

Worse human beings, sure, but no one put the game itself at greater risk. The gambling prohibition was put in place precisely because gambling almost killed major league baseball. In a similar vein, the steroid era threatened the public perception of the sport’s legitimacy.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
10 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Who says that steroids have a larger physiological effect than greenies?

Being bigger and stronger won’t help you make contact with a baseball 100 games into the season any more than you would be able to otherwise.

A 35 year old taking greenies to fight exhaustion absolutely will.

Look at how players from 32-38 have declined over the last 10 years relative to the league compared to 1976-85 or 1996-2005.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=1985&month=0&season1=1976&ind=0&team=0,ss&rost=0&age=32,38&filter=&players=0

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2005&month=0&season1=1995&ind=0&team=0,ss&rost=0&age=32,38&filter=&players=0

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2015&month=0&season1=2006&ind=0&team=0,ss&rost=0&age=32,38&filter=&players=0

There’s a reason guys like Damon were far more upset about them banning greenies than steroids.

jdbolickMember since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Who says that steroids have a larger physiological effect than greenies?

Are you being serious? If so, obviously modern medicine does. Studies have shown that use of steroids with absolutely no exercise produces equivalent muscle mass with someone who undergoes an extensive weight lifting regimen: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101 while the combination of steroids and weight training produce the most dramatic gains in muscle mass. Amphetamines enhance performance, without question, but to nowhere even remotely near the degree that steroids do. They have dramatically different chemical effects.

Being bigger and stronger won’t help you make contact with a baseball 100 games into the season any more than you would be able to otherwise.

Of course it will.

NATS FanMember since 2018
10 years ago

I think if someone is caught cheating they deserve punishment! I know I am a college professor is so damn sick of millennials who cheat that I am considering doing something else! Ruins my job!

Dave Stewart
10 years ago
Reply to  NATS Fan

I couldn’t agree more.