Let’s Categorize Some Managers

In case you were on sabbatical on Monday and missed the news, it’s manager hirin’ season. As much as player evaluation is an inexact science, identifying good potential managers is even more so. Even previous success as a manager is no guarantee. Dusty Baker and Bruce Bochy both won titles almost immediately after being hired to their last jobs, but consider how badly things went for Joe Girardi in Philadelphia or Joe Maddon in Anaheim.
So much of this job is either intangible or inscrutable to outsiders; more than that, there are several different ways to become qualified for it. Monday’s new hires — Craig Counsell of the Cubs, Stephen Vogt of the Guardians, and Carlos Mendoza of the Mets — represent three different paths to managerial candidacy. That got me thinking about managers less as individuals than as classes of individuals.
Across all of sports, it’s hard to think of a league that values a head coach more than SEC football. A college football coach is the program’s primary in-game tactician, strategist, motivator, recruiter, fundraiser, father, son, and holy spirit. A good coach can conjure a champion from the very living earth. Knowing this, the boosters and administrators who run these programs have also developed very little patience for a head coach who doesn’t hit his marks. I believe the saying goes something like: “It just means more.”
Alabama’s Nick Saban is generally held up as the man who most embodies the head coaching ideal, but you can’t exactly hire Nick Saban, can you? No, but you can do the next-best thing: hire someone who learned at his feet. Between the current SEC schools (plus Texas and Oklahoma, who’ll join the conference next year), there are 15 head coaching jobs not currently held by Saban himself. There are former Saban assistants in five of those gigs. Three SEC head coaches worked for legendary Oklahoma coach Bob Stoops. Two other SEC head coaches — Kentucky’s Mark Stoops (Bob’s younger brother) and South Carolina’s Shane Beamer — didn’t work for Saban or Stoops directly, but both are second-generation members of both the Saban and Stoops coaching tree.
Let’s apply the same principle here. If you can’t hire the best guy, hire the best guy’s right-hand man:
| Experience at Hire | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Manager | MLB Managerial | MLB Coaching | Other | Tree |
| Bud Black | SDP (2007-15) | LAA (2000-06) | Two years minor leagues | Scioscia |
| Derek Shelton | None | Four teams, 15 years | Eight years minor leagues | Maddon |
| Dave Martinez | None | TBR (2008-14), CHC (2015-17) | None | Maddon |
| Brandon Hyde | None | FLA (2010-11), CHC (2014-18) | Five years minor leagues | Maddon |
| Alex Cora | None | HOU (2017) | Five years LBPRC | Hinch |
These categories are obviously inexact; I came up with five and considered putting Torey Lovullo in four of them. But in the late 2010s, MLB teams loved hiring Maddon assistants. So far, they’ve turned out pretty well: Martinez won a World Series, Hyde is coming off a 100-win season with the Orioles and headed in the right direction, and Shelton… well, it’s the Pirates, there’s only so much he can do.
There was a time when Maddon himself was the top guy’s top assistant. You might not be old enough to remember when the Angels won 90 games every year and Mike Scioscia was considered one of the best managers in the league. That shine certainly helped both Maddon and Black get their foot in the door. Consider that Scioscia was viewed as a Tommy Lasorda protégé when he was first hired, and all of a sudden we’re talking about Dave Roberts and Mark Kotsay (both of whom were on Black’s last Padres staff in 2015) as being part of the Walter Alston coaching tree.
Hiring off the hot coaching tree is no guarantee of success (trust me, my favorite college football team was once coached by Will Muschamp). But it at least guarantees that the candidate has major league coaching experience and was in proximity to someone who knew what they were doing. That gets you a long way.
| Experience at Hire | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| Manager | MLB Managerial | MLB Coaching | Other |
| Brian Snitker | None | ATL (11 years, various stints) | ~100 years minor leagues |
| Carlos Mendoza | None | NYY (2018-23) | Nine years minor leagues |
| Rob Thomson | None | NYY (2008-17), PHI (2018-22) | 20 years minor leagues and front office |
| Oliver Marmol | None | STL (2017-21) | Six years minor leagues |
| Pedro Grifol | None | KCR (2013-22) | 12 years minor leagues and front office |
| Matt Quatraro | None | CLE (2014-17), TBR (2018-22) | 10 years minor leagues |
| John Schneider | None | TOR (2019-22) | 11 years minor leagues |
The next class of manager is the lifer. These are guys whose playing careers ended in minor league anonymity, resulting in a long career of teaching rookie ball kids how to turn a double play. From there, they climbed the ladder one rung at a time, ultimately reaching a major league coaching staff and building their coaching and managerial skills at the top level. That path takes longer for some guys than others; Marmol was 35 when he got the call to manage, and Thomson and Snitker were both around 60. But in order for a lifer to become a manager, he has to demonstrate some ability to lead, teach, and work with people.
Lifers tend not to be splashy hires. In fact, three of these guys — Snitker, Thomson, and Schneider — only got into their positions as interim managers at first, then held onto the job after an impressive initial showing. But it’s the least vibes-based and most merit-based class of managerial candidate.
| Experience at Hire | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| Manager | MLB Managerial | MLB Coaching | Other |
| David Bell | None | CHC (2013), STL (2014-17) | Four years minor leagues |
| Dave Roberts | None | SDP (2011-15) | One year front office |
| Skip Schumaker | None | SDP (2018-21), STL (2022) | None |
| Bob Melvin | Four teams, 20 years | MIL (1999), DET (2000), ARI (2001-02) | Five years minors and FO |
| Stephen Vogt | None | SEA (2023) | None |
| Mark Kotsay | None | SDP (2015), OAK (2016-2021) | One year front office |
| Kevin Cash | None | CLE (2013-14) | One year front office |
| Bruce Bochy | Two teams, 25 years | SDP (1993-94) | Four years minor leagues |
Are you a major league veteran? Did you play an up-the-middle defensive position and have a career wRC+ under 100? Did you get along with your teammates and have a friendly relationship with the media? Inquire within for the fast track to being a major league manager. (Playing experience at a college in Florida or California a plus but not required.)
If I had to guess, this stereotypical Future Manager thing started back in the days of player-managers, when the best player who could string a sentence together often as not ended up writing the lineup card. After John McGraw, Leo Durocher, Frankie Frisch, and a few others, the archetype shifted to fit any sufficiently opinionated infielder.
To be fair, the stereotype got us Sparky Anderson, Bobby Cox, Tony La Russa, and a bunch of other Hall of Famers. Bochy, too, is bound for Cooperstown, and I like a number of the managers on this section of the list quite a bit. But there’s some survivorship bias here. Guys like Cash and Roberts get groomed for a managerial role, do it well, and stick around for a while. Not everyone is so lucky, or competent.
There was a mild objection to Vogt getting picked to manage the Guardians after just one year of major league coaching experience. I don’t think anyone has a problem with him specifically; rather, it’s about what type of player gets groomed for that role, and how implicit bias sometimes moves inexperienced white candidates to the front of the line.
That’s not always the case. I stuck Cora into the A.J. Hinch coaching tree, but he spent one year as a bench coach to cross off one last line on his application before being handed a big league managerial position. It’s also worth remembering that Mendoza, a highly experienced Venezuelan candidate, got his first managerial shot the same day Vogt did.
But when an active player gets pegged as a future manager, it’s fair to ask why. Sometimes an inexperienced candidate is actually ready for the job; other times, he just looks the part. But at least these Future Managers have some relevant experience before being handed the lineup card for the first time.
| Experience at Hire | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| Manager | MLB Managerial | MLB Coaching | Other |
| Aaron Boone | None | None | None |
It was not always so. Back at the turn of the century, when Buck Martinez and Larry Dierker descended from the broadcast booth, managing a major league club was a different job than it is now. A broadcaster has credibility and name recognition with the fan base (and with the owner) as well as top-notch communications skills.
Now, managers need more than that. They need the emotional intelligence to get the best out of 26 different players who respond to praise or criticism in 26 different ways. They need the tactical and empirical foundations to make the right in-game decision, even as pitching changes are more common than ever and minute mistakes can result in the end of the season. And they need the stomach to do it all, even as criticism comes from more directions than ever before.
Back in the 2000s and 2010s, the perceived center of power in a baseball club shifted from the dugout to the front office. And many so-called “new-age” GMs made the rash (I’d argue arrogant, in retrospect) decision to hire inexperienced managers who would be less set in their ways and follow the front office’s instructions. It’s instructive that we’ve seen a shift away from that model.
| Experience at Hire | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| Manager | MLB Managerial | MLB Coaching | Other |
| Torey Lovullo | None | TOR (2011-12), BOS (2013-16) | 11 years minor leagues |
| Craig Counsell | MIL (2015-2023) | None | Three years front office |
| A. J. Hinch | ARI (2009-10) HOU (2015-19) | None | 10 years front office |
| Rocco Baldelli | None | TBR (2015-2017) | Four years front office |
| Scott Servais | None | None | 12 years front office |
What teams have learned in the past few years is that a field manager is not merely a functionary, but an essential node in an integrated chain of command. These managers are all MLB veterans, which gives them credibility in a clubhouse, but for the most part they trained not as minor league or assistant coaches but as special assistants or in some other role in a front office.
Sometimes, a manager has a specific personal affinity with his head of baseball ops. Diamondbacks GM Mike Hazen worked with Lovullo in Cleveland and Boston for the better part of 15 years. When he finally got his chance to run a team, one of the first decisions he made was to put Lovullo in the Diamondbacks dugout. Jerry Dipoto played with Servais, hired him as assistant GM when he was running the Angels, and then made him manager when he moved to Seattle.
Regardless, these managers are more integrated into the front office, and (ideally) are able to translate all that egghead business from GM-speak into ballplayer language. Is that the way to go? Again, it depends on the man and the situation. Servais, Lovullo, and Baldelli have had their ups and downs. Hinch’s immense success in Houston is now clouded by the various scandals that tainted the front office that hired him, and his tenures in Arizona and (so far) Detroit have been unremarkable. On the other hand, the bidding war that Counsell kicked off speaks to how he’s viewed around the game.
Wins and losses are the only thing that matter, but a manager’s input is but one of many factors in the team’s final record. Few baseball operations decisions that are as highly scrutinized as managerial hiring have such an opaque relationship with the team’s fate. Any type of manager can lead a team to a championship. It’s more important that the GM has a clear, defensible understanding of who they’re hiring and why.
Michael is a writer at FanGraphs. Previously, he was a staff writer at The Ringer and D1Baseball, and his work has appeared at Grantland, Baseball Prospectus, The Atlantic, ESPN.com, and various ill-remembered Phillies blogs. Follow him on Twitter, if you must, @MichaelBaumann.
Good stuff. It would be really interesting to see a breakdown of how guys in the different categories fare as managers, to see if certain categories tends to portend more or less success. A more longitudinal study that included recent former managers for a larger sample size would be even cooler.
I feel like there’d be too much noise in that kind of of study though, because at the end of the day a manager’s success is tied to his roster
That’s absolutely fair. There are probably things one could play around with, though.
I dunno.
Need Dan to come up with a MiPS.
And even given two teams of identical roster strength, the noise from baseball’s inherent random variation (everything from sequencing to bad hops to injuries) drowns out almost anything you can measure quantitatively about managers.
100%. A 100 win true talent team will win 97 or 102 games just by randomness
Friend, a 100 win true talent team can win 92 or 108 games by randomness, its much wider than we give it credit for.
Or 82 like the 100 win Padres did in 2023.
It’s well past time you people stop thinking of the Padres as some elite organization. They’re not underperforming when it happens year in and year out, that’s just who they are.
That feels like something we’ve been told by people who sound smart, rather than something that is actually true. No quantitative measurement is going to be free of noise, but taking numbers and reducing the noise connected to them is something folks in these parts have been trying to do forever.
lol Boone. the yankees are a goddamn clown show and an atrocity
How in the ever-loving fuck does that moron still have a job?
Complacency. They had their worst season in three decades, worst in my lifetime, and they’re going to change absolutely nothing. It’s criminal.
It’s amazing to see them content with mediocrity.
Mediocrity? Try abject failure
“Abject failure” is definitely too strong — I’ll save that for the White Sox. But last season was absolutely a multifaceted, systemic failure.
If Steinbrenner was still around (all due respect to Hal, but his dad will always be who we mean when we say Steinbrenner), Boone would’ve been gone 3 years ago
But would he have hired a better manager? Say what you will about Boone — and there is a lot to say — there are absolutely worse choices out there (some of which other teams actually picked).
I think Boone might have been Billy Martin’d more than Billy Martin if George were still alive
True, though Steinbrenner was and always will be a grotesque.
He’s doing the job he was hired to do, namely deal with media and other external entities. The problem is that isn’t a job description a manager should have. Managers need the respect of players and need to be able to inspire them. A PR director can’t possibly do that
He’s also been terrible at that….how many LOLs did he provide by trying to sugarcoat the team’s embarrassing performance this year?
I would argue his job functionally is that, but with a twist. A big part of his job would seem to be to direct as much criticism about the franchise as possible towards himself. A lot of times he seems to do that by saying something indefensible and moving attention away from an actual problem.
Whether he’s done a good job of that — I’d argue, on balance, he’s been OK at it, with a few notable failures — is debatable.
Whats even more funny is they fired lawson and hired sean casey as the hitting coach. You can’t make this up. Yankees have 0 direction or clue as to what theyre doing. So out of touch.
Lawson was atrocious at his job too, but yeah Casey another fuckin guy straight off of TV with no coaching experience. Takes a real genius to figure out how this team is so bad!
You need to add a category for managers hired by AJ Preller just to be fired/released a short time later. Call it the doomed to fail tree or something like that
I’m not sure that the manager definitely has to translate analytics to players. That could be done by coaches, particularly if the “pitching coach” is a “director of pitching” organization wide, or reports to that person. The inspirational leader may be the most important manager attribute
I wonder if a similar exercise for the ostensible “face” of the front office would be interesting. Like, Elias who just won Exec of the Year with the Orioles came from Luhnow’s Astros who came from Mozeliak’s Cardinals who was a scout.
Thomas Boswell did a fabulous “managerial categorization” piece in his book in the 1980s….same themes as here, but more historical comparison to older managers and those working at the time….would be a great companion piece to this one if you can still find it – I think the book title was “Time Begins on Opening Day”
Up until this offseason, even though they weren’t members of his coaching staff, there were 7 players for Francona in Boston that were managing teams which I thought was fun. Kapler, Kotsay, Roberts, Cash, Ross, Cora and Baldelli. I thought Varitek and Pedroia would be on this list ahead of some of those names but I think it’s interesting, hopefully someone else does too.
I’m kind of shocked that Varitek hasn’t been a manager, he is pretty much the archetype of the “Future Managers” group except for actually being a manager. It appears that he has been in various roles with the Red Sox since he retired and has interviewed for open managerial positions in the past, so that may be in the pipeline.
Varitek just barely qualifies for this archetype with a career 99 wRC+
I would not have guessed it was that high. That 2003-2005 stretch where he was a genuine good hitter really props him up. 94 wRC+ through 2002, 87 wRC+ from 2006 on.
Varitek’s been getting some chatter as a candidate; I wouldn’t be shocked to see him in the big chair within 2-3 years.
It’s a low stakes, vibes-based award, but I was kinda shocked to see Roberts not at least be a finalist for MoY. Say what you want about his postseason decisions, but he guided a very injured team with numerous incidents that could have unraveled them (a la Pads, Yanks, etc.), but never did. They exceeded every expectation for the 162 game season in a fairly competitive division. (And rewarding MIA with anything after sandbagging Kim Ng is nonsense to me)
Why even make the racial comment?
Does anybody really think white job candidates are undeservedly being hired/promoted in 2023?
The recent jobs report from S&P 100 corporations shows that of those 300K+ new hires: 6 percent white, 94 percent non-white… In a country that is still a bit over half white…
Those figures sure seem to indicate racial discrimination, just not the kind Baumann was describing.
Why include the comment? Simply to note how the racial component can determine who gets to fast track and cut to the front of the line. The next sentences in the column expand on that idea and provide counter examples. Baseball front offices have had well documented issues regarding race long term including recent examples.
Per the “S&P 100 corporations shows that of those 300K+ new hires: 6 percent white, 94 percent non-white” I would posit that the numbers do not tell the story that you are hinting at. A deeper dive could expose issues such as minority hiring traditionally lags hiring of white job seekers and in a period of historically low unemployment, minority hiring has increased as that is the pool where the applicants are coming from. Or it could reveal that the hiring has taken place for job typically held by minority classes (maybe seasonal work is such a job category).
Have there been recent examples? I don’t think MLB (or US society in general) has a pro white bias these days.
As for a deeper dive, the BLM protests occurred in 2020. I think it was just reactionary discrimination to appease the protesters
Way to cherry pick a single study from a single year that supports your argument. Not only was that just for 2021, coming off the pandemic which would obviously skew results, but you also completely ignore something that exact article states:
“The share of executive, managerial and professional roles held by people of color increased by about 2 percentage points compared with 2020. That still leaves most companies in our dataset lopsided, with White people holding a disproportionate share of high-paying jobs at S&P 100 companies.”
Dude there’s no cherry picking necessary for discrimination against whites in 2023. It’s literally taught in public schools these days so that the public is divided and easily conquered in the political and economic spheres.
If you’re against white people disproportionately having certain positions, shouldn’t you also be against blacks disproportionately being hired for said positions?
I’m against the racism of the past and the racism of the present. I understand the desire to rectify the injustices of the past but I fear that by going too far we are setting up further racial conflict in the future
Please, if there’s so much evidence of racial discrimination against whites provide more than one study that’s obviously going to be skewed when it investigates hiring for people of color the year after people of color were let go in jobs that were effected by a global pandemic.
I didn’t mention any racial injustice ideology I believe, I simply pointed out how your flawed evidence is not indicative of anything you think it does.
But go on with your Critical Race Theory BS “taught in schools” and keep believing that everyone is out to get the poor white people. The same rhetoric the right wing has been preaching in some form since the Civil Rights Act was passed.
My financial aid for college was denied because “we aren’t looking to help your demographic”.
My paperwork wasn’t even looked at. I had good grades and had been in the “Gifted and Talented” classes since elementary. Even played sports and held down a job; basically an ideal candidate.
Denied on sight for being a white male.
My minority friends were awarded that same financial aid to the same school despite: their families were wealthier, they had much worse grades and standardized test scores with no history of succeeding in advanced classes like me.
This was over a decade ago. The bias in higher education is right out in the open these days. Don’t take my word for it, ask an Asian person about racial bias in higher ed.
Comparing MLB to any other S&P corporation is like comparing Gerrit Cole’s fastball to mine. Cmon, man. The honest comparison would be to NBA (where diverse hiring happens more because players are a bigger part of who gets coaching jobs, and players are more diverse than owners) and the NFL (where players have far less power, the good ol boys reign, and therefore, Josh McDaniels is getting ready for his next interview)
Is the racial profile of the NBA’s player base an example of racism? It doesn’t come close to matching the racial demographics of the US.
If it’s not (and it’s not IMO) then how can we hold it against other employers?
Main point being the demographics of individual companies will rarely match the demographics of a country
In every American sport, unqualified whites are routinely hired as head coaches over qualified minority candidates. It’s so embarassing for the leagues that they have to force ownership to interview minority candidates.
In baseball, dugouts are divided by language and race, and a higher % of the best players speak Spanish than the player population as a whole. Yet, whites who can’t even speak Spanish and communicate with their players are hired over more qualified candidates.
Maybe in decades past. I don’t think that’s an issue in modern day America.
I live near Houston and our coaches are all minorities: Dusty Baker(Astros), Demeco Ryan’s(Texans), Ime Udoka (Rockets)
The Texans, among a number of NFL teams, are currently being sued for racial discrimination in their coaching hiring practices.
The Astros owner, Jim Crane, once paid millions of dollars to settle a racial discrimination lawsuit. He would refuse to hire or promote blacks, hispanics or women. Crane told his managers not to hire blacks because “once you hire blacks, you can never fire them.” Witnesses said Crane did not permit Eagle to advertise job openings because he did not want to build up files of applications by qualified minority job-seekers.
So yes, I think this is still an issue in modern day america.
Being sued doesn’t equal being guilty. Let’s wait for a verdict before judging the Texans.
Didn’t know that about Crane. Even so, he hired Dusty so he’s been forced to change with the times.
And I’ve heard many business owners and bosses make the comment that it is very difficult to fire a minority, even if they deserve to be fired, because of anti-descrimination policies/laws.
So I do wonder if some of these issues are made worse by policies intending to help
“Maybe in decades past. I don’t think that’s an issue in modern day America.”
Then you willfully choose to ignore it. There’s literally evidence yearly of racial discrimination in sports alone, and you think it’s a non-issue?
“Oh but black people are hired in some field so that means it’s not a problem!” /facepalm
Even within that dataset, the Executive hires went to whites at a rate of 42.2%.
Which is much lower than the percentage of white people in the US(over 55pct).
Whenever this happens to minorities it’s supposedly racism.
If over-representation is racist so is under-representation.
Now that’s a ridiculous premise because it’s literally impossible for the majority of society to organize this way. Even if it were possible, sorting people into racially calculated positions is also ….(wait for it)…. totally racist.
Snitker straddles the line between lifer and coaching tree for me. Yea, he’s been with Atlanta since time immemorial but he also spent a fair amount of time either working directly underneath Bobby Cox or tangentially with him.
I expected in some article about the origins of managers that at some point I would read something about catchers.
Enjoyable read, my only quibble would be that with 11 years in the minors, 6 years MLB coaching experience and no front office experience noted that Torey Lovullo is more of a lifer than a front office guy to me.
“…and how implicit bias sometimes moves inexperienced white candidates to the front of the line.” —This encouraged me to wonder whether anyone has referred to the effective limit on whites and on foreign players on Japanese rosters as “racist” and, if not, why not?
It’s human nature to be a little more trusting of people who look similar to you. Notice most countries in the world are racially homogenous.
My guess is you would find some evidence of racism in every country because of humanity’s preference for similarity. You can look up experiments that show we recognize and read emotions quicker in people that look like us, etc.
As to why race isn’t researched and discussed outside the West the way it is inside: In a racially homogeneous society there isn’t a political advantage or large block of minority votes to win by exposing the bias.
Also many people want to see racism as a Western problem rather than admit humanities default state is to be slightly discriminatory(unconsciously so) on the basis of similarity
As Baumann is a Phillies fan (and I, Cubs), I’d enjoy an addendum on the Sandberg experience.