Madison Bumgarner Won’t Fetch the Giants That Much
For all the reasons that made running the Giants appealing to Farhan Zaidi, there’s one major, unavoidable negative: The roster is in pretty bad shape. That’s the roster of the big-league team, and, really, that’s the overall organizational depth chart. It’s an expensive and mediocre club with few reinforcements on the way, and while Zaidi obviously knows all this, that doesn’t change the fact he’ll be doing hard work, requiring hard decisions. Navigating this kind of situation is always unpleasant, when there exists a fan base rather accustomed to winning, so you can understand why Zaidi hasn’t yet said much about trading Madison Bumgarner. It’s something the Giants will have to confront, but it’s a troublesome concept to voice.
Still, the Giants are reportedly open to it. They don’t want to frighten the public, but they also don’t want to close themselves off to potential opportunities. It’s time for the Giants to change their direction, and Bumgarner is one of few players on the roster with trade value. According to the linked article, the Giants are likely to target “at least one high-end pitching prospect.” Bumgarner’s under contract only one more year, at a $12-million salary.
James Paxton has already been traded. Noah Syndergaard, Trevor Bauer, Carlos Carrasco, and Corey Kluber have all been the subject of rumors. Patrick Corbin is a free agent. Dallas Keuchel is a free agent. Yusei Kikuchi is going to be posted. You can add Bumgarner to the list of available starting pitchers. However, if Bumgarner is to be dealt, you shouldn’t expect the Giants to get a massive haul back. There’s a considerable gap between the perception of Bumgarner and the reality.
Part of this is because the average person still thinks of trades as involving players, rather than involving players and their contracts. Like it or not, baseball these days doesn’t just value players on the basis of their identities — so much of value is about future control. Bumgarner, yes, is a World Series hero, a borderline household name, and those can never be taken away from him. But because of his contract, he’s a one-year player, and one-year players don’t often go for blockbuster trades. This same thinking applies to Paul Goldschmidt. Goldschmidt is a great player who’s going to be underpaid in 2019, but after 2019, he’s set to hit free agency. Clubs aren’t wild about giving away so many years of service time.
Beyond that, though, there’s also the matter of Bumgarner himself. Bumgarner has continued to post pretty low ERAs. He’s come back from the dirt-bike injury that sidelined him for so long in 2017, and his fractured finger in 2018 was a fluke. Yet Bumgarner now profiles as a pitcher in decline. Those same low ERAs have been posted in one of baseball’s most pitcher-friendly environments. Check out how Bumgarner ranks among his peer group, over the past two seasons. Here is a selection of Bumgarner’s percentile rankings.
I hope it’s obvious I’m not trying to make the point that Bumgarner is bad. He’s not bad. He’s probably still an above-average starting pitcher. But Bumgarner hasn’t been posting ace-level statistics like he used to. I could understand if Bumgarner simply struggled after coming back from his shoulder injury in 2017, but then in 2018, with the benefit of additional time, he didn’t show improvement. Maybe *that* was because of the fractured finger, but ultimately, players are judged by their results, and Bumgarner’s results have gotten worse. I won’t bother embedding a table, but you’d be hard-pressed to find a difference in 2018 performance between Madison Bumgarner and Wade LeBlanc.
While it’s true that Bumgarner has still managed to keep his ERA low, and while it’s true that run prevention is the name of the game, there’s reason to believe a lot of that comes down to Bumgarner leveraging his home environment. During the Statcast era, Bumgarner has run a significant gap between his actual wOBA and his expected wOBA, but that’s only been the case in San Francisco. Historically, Bumgarner’s ERA- isn’t far from his FIP-, and as many of you understand, ERA is among the noisier statistics. I wouldn’t expect teams to pay much attention to ERA at all. I’d expect teams to pay more attention to, say, something like this:
Bumgarner has been losing the ability to miss bats with his fastball. He’s compensated by throwing more curveballs and fewer fastballs, and the curve and his cutter are still good and effective, but with the fastball declining, Bumgarner’s abilities are more limited. Perhaps he’ll be able to recover some of his losses, but trade partners wouldn’t agree to a trade on the basis of hopeful speculation.
Bumgarner is under contract for one year and $12 million. If he were a free agent signing a one-year deal, what would he get? $25 million? Maybe $30 million? Just taking those two numbers, you could say Bumgarner would have around $13 – 18 million in surplus value. As it happens, Craig Edwards recently did the hard work to attach surplus values to prospect rankings. The average pitching prospect with a Future Value rating of 50 was calculated to have a surplus value of about $21 million. That would be a value in excess of where Bumgarner appears to be.
Last offseason, somewhat conveniently, the Giants were on the other side of a similar exchange. With Bumgarner, the Giants would be trading one of their own icons away. But you’ll recall that they traded for one of the Pirates’ icons, in Andrew McCutchen. McCutchen was coming off a better year than Bumgarner, but he was a bit older, and he also had just one year of team control left. The Pirates received position-player prospect Bryan Reynolds, and pitching prospect Kyle Crick. Reynolds, at the time, was given an FV rating of 45. Crick was given an FV rating of 40. Crick went on to have a successful season in relief. The Pirates didn’t get nothing, but the return didn’t blow anyone away. The parallels are numerous.
More teams, perhaps, need pitching now, compared to teams last offseason in the market for corner outfielders. If there’s a bigger group of suitors, maybe Zaidi could find a better return for his No. 1 starter. Nevertheless, premium prospects won’t be there on the table. That’s not how the industry works anymore. And it makes me wonder whether Zaidi might be better off waiting until July. That might seem like procrastination, but it could conceivably work in the Giants’ favor.
Just from a PR standpoint, Zaidi probably wouldn’t want trading Bumgarner to be his first major move with the team. He’s too popular a player, and it would leave a sour taste in peoples’ mouths. Plus, if the Giants held off, maybe the team would play well enough to flirt with the wild-card race. Maybe Bumgarner’s numbers would rebound, at least somewhat. He should actually begin the season healthy. And then there’s the matter of Bumgarner’s reputation. Really, it’s the matter of his statistical performance in the playoffs. So much of the perception of Bumgarner’s value has to do with what he’s done in October. I wouldn’t expect other teams to value that too highly right now, especially since Bumgarner was a hero all the way back in 2014, but come the next trade deadline, the playoffs will be closer in view. I wonder if Bumgarner’s background might be enough to get some other suitor over the hump. Imagine what that kind of deadline acquisition could mean to a contending clubhouse. I could be making too much of a small thing, but trades in July are just thought about differently. Right now, the postseason feels so far away. The previous one only just ended.
As always, it’s up to the executives in charge to know the details of what’s going on. Only Zaidi’s staff knows what’s out on the table right now, and only Zaidi’s staff can figure out whether it might be smarter to wait. Whether it be sooner or later, the Giants are going to have to make a tough decision with a very popular player. Assuming a trade decision is eventually made, though, it’s not going to fully re-stock the Giants’ system. Not unless the Giants wait, and Bumgarner rebounds. For the moment, he just isn’t that pitcher.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.


Good objective article that utilizes facts not fanboy conjecture. Bumgarner is likely still,a good pitcher, just not an ace anymore. He shouldn’t bring back an ace type return.
He was never an ace…let’s count his seasons with an ERA+ over 130, oh wait that’s only 1.
Jacob DeGrom has 3 in 4 full season with another one at 128.
MadBum was never an ace until the postseason arrived
I think there are at least a few teams that would be happy to trade a 45 and a 40 for Bumgarner. The Brewers are the most obvious example, but the Braves have endless depth and seem to be looking for pitching, and the A’s have a surprisingly deep system too. But I agree with Jeff–for that level of a return, it’s worth holding him and seeing if he has a hot couple of months before the deadline.
The Braves might give them Allard or someone who’s fallen behind the core group some but I really doubt they’d part with Soroka, Toussaint, Wilson, Wentz, Anderson, etc.
Wilson and Allard would probably be more than the Braves would like to pay. The Braves don’t actually line up all that well because they don’t have that many 45s, and the ones who are 45s aren’t Rule 5 eligible for a long time. Guys like Huascar Ynoa, Josh Graham, etc aren’t exactly the sort of player the Giants can credibly trade their local hero for.
Good analysis. Unless overwhelmed, keep him until deadline at least. If he has a great first half, teams will line up.
And if he tanks, he won’t lose that much value since he didn’t have THAT much to begin with. In the end, the Giants system is so bad that I would rather risk a 40+45 for a good shot at a 50+ etc.
This. Is age 29 Bumgarner really that bad of a bet to rebound?
He’s also 29 years old with over 1,700 innings on his arm – including some very heavy workload seasons. That’s a lot of mileage for a guy under 30.
I like MadBum a lot, but all signs point downwards, not up.
Don’t forget about Verlander. Old workhorses do rebound sometimes. Change of scenery might even help, as long as there are no dirt bikes in the vicinity.
Verlander after age 29 season 1553.2 innings regular season, 70.1 postseason so 1624 total
Bumgarner after age 28 season 1638.1 innings regular season, 102.1 innings postseason so 1740.2 innings total
So assuming 180 innings next year- he’d be 300 innings more than Verlander.
and Verlander thru age 28- was at 1357 total. So Madbum is almost 400 innings ahead of him same age. And that’s with these last 2 seasons.
1980 onward, I found 15 pitchers who were +/- 200 IP of Bumgarner through age 28 and had an fWAR/200IP within 0.75 wins
As 29yo John Smoltz lead the bunch at 8.4 fWAR. Andy Benes, Javier Vazquez, Mike Moore, Tom Glavine, Mark Buehrle and Jose Rijo all managed 4+ win years as well.
Greg Swindell and Matt Cain came in at the bottom at 1.2 and -0.1 fWAR respectively.
—
For ages 29-31 combined- Smoltz still comes out at the top, by a huge margin. Nine of fifteen averaged 3+ wins with Swindell and Cain still at the bottom.
The median was 9.7 fWAR over the three years
Just like Kershaw, though for some reason few people want to acknowledge it.
2100 innings and clearly trending downward, with actual durability and injury concerns (unlike Bumgarner, who has had two freak injuries).
Bumgarner has a much easier delivery than any of these comparisons, more of his power comes from core muscles as opposed to shoulder/elbow. So, more mileage but less wear and tear per mile. I’d bet on him.
The Giants need to make a deal with the Braves.
is this from the OOTP IBWDL Slack channel?
You know, his repertoire change sounds an awful lot like Adam Wainwright’s progression. Wainwright lost velocity and effectiveness with his fastball and compensated by going to his curve and cutter more. He was still solid, but clearly his ace days were gone. Both guys also racked up innings in the regular season and in the playoffs. Heck, both are known as solid hitters and defenders (MadBum a better hitter, Waino a better defender, but look at their numbers — they are virtually identical!).
The major difference is that Bumgarner is still under 30, but if you look at how many innings he’s already thrown, that isn’t as big of a plus as you’d think.
I see teams with the weakest analytics going after him that think they can improve their teams and get some name recognition. Teams like the Orioles or Angels. Whoever gets Bumgarner should get an upgraded Leake innings eater.
I think with the Elias/Mejdal hires, you can safely pull Baltimore out of the “weakest analytics” pool
This seems like the Reds. Questionable analytics. Loaded with 40-45-50 prospects. Need a “front of the rotation” starter.
Every team’s fans thinks the Reds are the ones dumb enough to overpay for pitchers. I don’t entirely disagree, but this is not a front office with a history of deal-making.
It’s hard to change perception after a deal like Homer Baily got…
Good piece. I think the overwhelming dynamic is that teams’ ideas of players’ values are becoming closer and closer thanks to good analytics. It’s rare anyone will get fleeced in the winter, so unless more than one team really wants one year of an above average but declining pitcher, it’s hard to see Zaidi moving him now, rather than waiting for someone needing a rental for a playoff/championship charge.
The exception would probably be if the Giants really don’t like what they’ve seen and they feel like taking what they can get – I’d bet on the former rather than the latter.
Waiting to trade him after the season prevents the acquiring team from offering a qualifying offer and therefore avoids them recouping a draft pick. Therefore, better to trade him now (avoid risk of injury) and get a slightly better return since the acquiring team gets a pick. The McCutchen trade, as it was in-season, did not result in a pick.
Actually you’re wrong somewhat about McCutchen- the package they’re talking about for him was what the Giants sent the Pirates. Not what the Yankees sent the Giants in August.
There would be a precedent for a Bumgarner trade: one of the first things Friedman and Zaidi did with the Dodgers is trade away Matt Kemp, probably the team’s most recognizable home-grown player at the time, other than Kershaw. While Kemp’s contract was quite a bit more problematic than Bumgarner’s, the Dodgers were also in a position to compete at the time, which the Giants ostensibly are not.
I’m sure if Zaidi is able to find as good a deal for MB as they got for Kemp, he’ll jump right on it; but even though that was only five years ago, it seems very unlikely he’ll be able to perform that kind of highway robbery again.
I have long been a sabermetric die-hard; but I think MadBum is one of the exceptionally few whose value does not follow the same pattern. I am not a Giants fan in the least, they are shit now. I would trust MadBum as a 2 on a competitive team and I would trade a 50 for him for 1 cheap year. Stats are great but fanfare and playoff planning also matter.
let’s see how many downvotes
I just don’t see any team trading away a 50 value for Bumgarner. San Fran will WANT a 50…..but they have little to no chance of getting one.
I can’t ignore the data (evidence) entirely, but I will say that it is difficult to attribute all of his “decline” to natural regression.
The injuries that he had in 2017/18 aren’t concerns going forward, and he also didn’t get the benefit of fully recovering and settling in either time.
In 2017, he had a very normal start to the season (not bad, not spectacular), and actually pitched well when he came back, with the exception of two clunkers.
In 2018, he clearly struggled with pitching issues related to the hand injury, in my opinion. We can point to the velocity dip all day long, but I don’t think it’s fair to look at it in isolation. Think about it. He finally gets another offseason to rest and prepare normally after the shoulder injury, and then gets his hand broken. Didn’t have a great spring, depending on how you look at it (which doesn’t matter anyway), but missed tons of bats (30 Ks in 21IP). Once he did come back, again with an interrupted season, he was clearly not comfortable with his slider/curveball releases, which can easily be explained by having his pitching hand injured, and there’s no way to say that it didn’t affect his entire game. Trying to adjust midseason, and mid-game, isn’t easy.
I’m not saying that he’s definitely going to return to his best days, but I don’t think we’ve seen enough to make that determination yet. Give him a full, healthy season to pitch and then talk about his decline.
He will be a free agent then, what good does that do the Giants?
I’m not saying they shouldn’t try to move him, though as a Giants fan I’d certainly be sad to see him go. My point is aimed at all teams, including the Giants and anyone considering trading for him. I don’t think his value should be diminished prematurely, though a return for him will certainly be lower than if he had a typical year in 2018.
For a team headed to the playoffs, he’s an extremely valuable asset, and will be treated as such by Zaidi through the winter. If he puts together a good 1st half and hasn’t moved, he’ll fetch an even higher price by a desperate team at the deadline. Sure it’s a rental, but for a team with an honest shot at a championship, and an ownership group with high expectations, a high price is worth it.
They could probably get a 50 if they took back a contract $8m underwater. Still they’re probably better off waiting until July.
Is there a way to quantify a player’s marketing value as well? Bumgarner has surplus trade value from his performance, but does he not have additional value over the Wade LeBlanc comparison just in the number of tickets and merchandise the prospective team would also gain?
I’m most interested to see whether Zaidi is able to trade Bumgarner for real value in return, or whether he packages a contract like Longoria’s along with Bum and a mid-level prospect in return for a mid-level prospect and another veteran contract (shorter term) in order to clear salary and set up more flexibility for future moves.
Neither would surprise me with Zaidi’s history. It’ll say a lot about how the rest of the league actually sees Bumgarner’s future.
He was always overrated because of the small sample postseason success. He had 6 full years before being hurt the last 2 and averaged 4.3 WAR per year which is really good. King Felix averaged 5.8 WAR over his best 6 years; Kershaw 7.1 WAR; Verlander 5.9 WAR. He was never one of the truly elite pitchers in baseball but he was amazing in 2 WS runs.
I’d disagree. He was valued for exactly where he’s been dominant – the postseason.
He was never considered on level with Kershaw, peak Verlander, etc. as a regular season elite pitcher.
One of my favorite Bum games was in 2016 against the cubs. Sunday night national tv. He pitched a shutout and drove in the only run of the game with a double off the left field wall.