Manny Ramirez != Barry Bonds
Patrick Sullivan at Baseball Analysts already paid homage to Ken Tremendous on Jon Heyman’s latest column, but that won’t stop me from looking at this line:
[Manny Ramirez] could have replicated the years of Barry Bonds, with comparable productivity, less controversy and more good cheer.
I’m a fan of greatness, so Barry Bonds has a place in my heart despite the moral and legal issues associated with his legacy. Outside of crushing Rays pitching, I don’t believe I have too many bad things to say about Manny Ramirez either. Still yet, let’s analyze this step by step.
First up;
“Could have replicated the years of Barry Bonds”
The obvious response is “Oh, Manny’s playing for another decade?” Since, you know, Bonds spent quite a while in San Francisco. Second thought, Jon Heyman is out of his mind. Over the last three years, Manny has wRAAs of 49.2, 21.1, 56.3. Bonds last three seasons were 39.5, 33.2, and 4.3 – if you discard 2005, then you get 2004’s 108.8 wRAA season. CHONE has Manny at 38.3 and ZiPS says 35.5. We’ll call it 37. Of 15 seasons with San Fran, 37 wRAA would’ve ranked as Bonds’ fourth lowest offensive output. Manny is great, he’s not Bonds.
“comparable productivity”
See above, but if we’re talking present day Bonds, sure.
“less controversy”
Can’t argue against that one…
“and more good cheer”
Okay wait. Is this the same Manny Ramirez shipped out of Boston because Red Sox management was less than decisive on his option one way or the other which lead to him throwing constant temper tantrums? The same Manny who got into at least two shoving matches last year, including with a clubhouse attendant? The same Manny who invented the “Manny being Manny” motto after yearly trade requests? To recap:
Bonds
Was a prick in the clubhouse and took PEDs which might have made him a better player, therefore helping his team.
Bad guy.
Ramirez
Whined about his contract annually and gave questionable effort at times until he forced his way out of town.
Good guy.
The difference; their agents, silly.
Bonds is one of the greatest hitters of all time. I’d rank Ruth, Williams then Bonds.
is that Bonds pre-HGH or post?
2 things
i agree that theres probably no one who could replicate bonds #s in SF, probably one of the best 10 year stretches (not counting his last 3 years) of any player ever.
but i have time believing that it was manny acting alone “throwing temper tantrums” and that is wasnt the “evil doings” of boras. Im not sure manny is capable of comprehending the financial decisions that the red sox and he faced this past offseason. I do believe that boras strongly urged him that it was in his (meaning Boras’) best interest if manny’s options werent picked up by the sox so he could sign for more money as a FA.
its been a well known and often reported fact that manny did not like living in boston primarily bc of the constant attention and bombardment by fans he received when out in public. I dont see how anyone can hold his yearly trade demands against him if he and his family were not happy.
on a side note i think the main problem between youk and manny was youk’s perception that manny wasnt trying. youk has to work very hard to squeeze every bit of talent out of his body to be a good player, while manny can coast through and still be a very good player, this is what probably irked youk. Mannys incident with the attendent is completely inexcusable.
oh and didnt bonds get into a fight with kent in the dugout before??
I know you didnt talk about it, but many people, even in the media, claim manny was “tanking” while in boston. I dont watch the red sox, but look at his monthly splits
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=2974
and you can see his june and july numbers were in fact very very good.
1. Yea the dugout scene happened with Kent, but a) it ways Jeff Kent, not exactly the kindest man in the world (grabbing the umpire, lying about his motorcycle antics), and b) Bonds didn’t get into anything close an altercation since that incident in 2001. No, Bonds wasn’t a great clubhouse presence, but he for the mostpart stayed out of his teammates’ way. The other players’ complaints were completely based on the media that surrounded him, which couldn’t be prevented.
2. Do you really believe Manny when he said he never liked living in Boston? He thrives on attention. Having lived in both Boston and San Francisco in these players’ prime, Bonds got much more attention, but decided to shy away from it rather than fight it and create a clubhouse distraction.
You can spend time excusing Manny’s individual incidents for however long you want, but you have to look at the endless string of events that just continue to add for him. Bonds’ antics were as bad at worst. Bonds and Manny do have similar track record in many ways, but in the end Bonds has the superior numbers.
“Manny”, I have very little doubt that the real Manny Ramirez is a more intelligent man than you are. That he’s a drooling idiot led this way and that based on Boras’ whims is an indefensible position.
Players hire Scott Boras to get them what they want. He does exactly that better than any agent in the game, which is why players consistently seek him out.
You know != will confuses people, you should have used:
¬ Manny Ramirez is Barry Bonds.
Huh? What does “¬” mean? Google was no help.
Think you mean
Manny Ramirez is ¬Barry Bonds. 🙂
I’m fairly sure UZR is park adjusted by position (well; lf, cf, rf, and infield). That should correct for the wall.
I know steals are overrated, but the thought of Manny trying to swipe 30 a year makes me chuckle.
Also, I think that Manny would have brought more good cheer than Bonds, at least as far as the writers were concerned. Bonds is notoriously reticent and paranoid – anyone recognize the name “Jon Dowd”?
Certainly, though, the gap in productivity between Bonds’s peak years and your garden variety first ballot hall of famer is as big as the gap between that group and ordinary starters.
Jon Dowd can mash.
I love it when LL memes find a wider audience.
That’s not even counting defense. Barry was a top notch defender throughout his career, his cumulative UZR from ages 38-43 was 11.6, Manny’s over the same period when he was 30-35 was -55.
If UZR was available before 2002, the numbers would look significantly worse.
Does that include the fact that Manny was fielding in front of the Green Monster? I know John Dewan’s +/- had that problem.
Manny’s defense has been severely underrated since the introduction of the more advanced defensive metrics specifically because of Fenway. I believe his numbers in L.A., which were around league average, are more indicative of his true defensive play.
Still I’m nearly positive that Manny’s “true defensive play” whatever that may be, is still nowhere near the level of the Great Barry Bonds. I mean players can we a couple fluke gold gloves (Derek Jeter) here and there, but 8? Bonds and godfather Mays are the two most complete five tool players in the history of the game. I don’t see how Bonds and Ramirez are ultimately comparable when Ramirez is really only a two tool player.