Mariners and Cardinals Swap Upside For Depth
Heading into the year, the Mariners plan seemed to be to acquire as many low-ceiling middling prospects as they could find and throw them all at the wall, hoping one or two would help stabilize the back end of the team’s rotation. Over the last year and change, they’ve acquired and started Ariel Miranda, Dillon Overton, Chase De Jong, Chris Heston, Christian Bergman, and Ryan Weber. Thanks to a .220 BABIP, Miranda’s been a reasonable enough starter for the team, but most of the other guys made a few low-quality appearances and were then shipped back to Triple-A.
But the Mariners are apparently undeterred, and are trying this strategy one more time.
#Mariners acquire LHP Marco Gonzales from St. Louis for minor league OF Tyler O’Neill.
— Ryan Divish (@RyanDivish) July 21, 2017
Given that Gonzales was a first round pick back in 2013, he’s a bit less fringy than most of the above group, but he fits the general profile of a lower velocity, pitch-to-contact guy who will likely rely on command to get outs in the Majors. Before the season, Eric Longenhagen hung a 40 FV grade on him in his Cardinals write-up.
Remember Marco Gonzalez? He’s still rookie eligible after making his big-league debut back in 2014 and proceeding to deal with various injuries (including a shoulder issue in 2015, TJ early in 2016) since then. Healthy Gonzalez was 88-92 with tail and life (he’d miss bats up in the zone with that fastball) while featuring a plus changeup in the 76-78 mph range with significant fade, a fringe to average curveball, and flashes of plus command. He was — and, you could still argue, remains — a potential mid-rotation starter. He was missing bats in the spring of 2016 before getting injured. He’s begun throwing again and should be ready to face hitters at some point toward the end of spring training, at which point we’ll see how much of his stuff is there.
Gonzalez has been okay-ish in Triple-A this year, and made one spot start for STL this summer, where his fastball averaged 91, right where it was before the injuries. He looks more like a back-end starter than a mid-rotation guy at this point, but of course, there’s plenty of value in a young cost-controlled starter if he can actually become a reasonable MLB pitcher. As Dipoto said yesterday:
Given the price for arms you can keep around for a while, Gonzales could turn out to be a valuable piece, even if he’s just a fifth starter. But that’s definitely still an if.
To land Gonzalez, the Mariners gave up Tyler O’Neill, who Eric graded as the team’s second-best prospect heading into the year.
A dense pillar of meat, O’Neill — at a shredded 5-foot-10, 210 pounds — is the most muscular baseball player many scouts have ever seen. But unlike most players with similar measurables, O’Neill is an above-average straight-line runner, has good range in (but not great feel for) the outfield, and an above-average arm. He does have the sort of power one might expect from a walking bicep, arguably plus-plus raw, and most scouts think O’Neill’s combination of ball/strike recognition and minimalist swing will allow him to catch enough fastballs to hit 20-plus homers annually despite justifiable questions about the hit tool.
Scouts who saw O’Neill in the Fall League noted that he swung through or made sub-optimal contact with lots of hittable pitches in the zone, and they have questions about the hand-eye or bat control. But he should do enough to play every day even if the hit tool ends up below average and, if you just look at the tools and not the unique physique, O’Neill has a pretty standard right-field profile. He projects as an average regular.
Despite catching fire lately, O’Neill has had a disappointing year in Tacoma, running just a 104 wRC+ with a strikeout rate that remains too high. The power still looks legitimate, but he might swing and miss too regularly to live up to Eric’s hopes of an average regular. That said, there’s still pretty clearly some upside here — KATOH had him 13th overall on the stats-only version of its prospect list before the season — and the Cardinals did pretty well to get a potential power bat with some athleticism for an arm who profiles as a swing pitcher with injury history.
But the Mariners have been making win-now moves for a while now, and Gonzales can probably help this team in 2017, while O’Neill was at least a year away. The Mariners clearly are swapping upside for something they see as a lower-risk profile and closer proximity to the Majors. Make enough of these trades and you’re going to end up giving away a star for someone who isn’t any good, and now the Mariners will have to hope Gonzales provides enough short-term value to justify the lost upside.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

Does O’Neill move into the Cardinals top 3?
probably not yet. still reyes, then kelly/weaver/flaherty in some order
Don’t forget Perez, Alcantara, and Sierra
yeah, the spots below kelly vary by list. anyway, o’neill probaby goes in with that weaver/flaherty/perez tier. still above sierra/hudson/bader/alcantara/etc./etc./etc. IMO.
great get, fits what the cards should be doing this deadline perfectly.
I don’t see what’s so special about Alcantara?
he throws 100, with two secondary pitches that scouts think can be plus?
Didn’t DiPoto make a deal similar to this, last year? Chris Taylor for Zach Lee?
He’s now traded Tyler O’Neill, Luiz Gohara, Tom Burrows, Carlos Vargas. Ryan Yarbrough, Mark Trumbo, Logan Morrison, Brad Miller, Chris Taylor and CJ Riefenhauer for Shae Simmons, Marco Gonzales, Jarrod Dyson, Zach Lee and 20 games of Steve Clevenger
And Alex Jackson for stuff (was it Povse and Whalen?).
Some pretty bad timing on some of those. Brad Miller before he went off. Trumbo before he went off. Morrison and taylor also
Unless you think it’s less about timing and more about location / organization. The Mariners for years now have been a system that trades away “failed” position players who then find a way to “went off” when coached/developed by another team. (Except the guys they seem to permanently break, like Dustin Ackley, though before this year I would’ve added Justin Smoak so you never know)
Trumbo trade was probably by LAA owner — after they got some guy named Albert Pujols.
Jerry probably wishes he still had Taijuan about now, finding Segura/Hangier replacements would be cheaper.
It’s worth noting Tyler O’neill turned 22 years old maybe a month ago.
So I love Tyler O’Neill as a prospect, and I get that many scouts don’t, but for Marco Gonzales? You would think they would be able to get *something* better than the “okay-ish at AAA” guy with injury problems and low upside. Even with O’Neill as the headliner, whose stock is down at the moment.
I hate it when teams decide an actual upgrade is too expensive, and send away prospects for guys who don’t move the needle. If you’re going to buy, just do it. Gonzales probably isn’t better than what they already have, so this is like giving a prospect away.
I completely agree with your point, but if you look at some of the starters the M’s have run out there this year, Gonzales has a real chance of being better than some of them.
For what it’s worth, Fangraphs’ depth charts project Gonzalez for a better FIP than everyone currently in the Mariners’ rotation except Hernandez and Paxton. Like it or not, Gonzalez is basically the Ms’ number three starter right now, and in that respect, at least, he is an upgrade.
The only explanation I have for this is that the Mariners’ internal analytics on pitching looks a lot like Steamer, who thinks he’s going to have a 4.23 FIP.
Since he currently has about that in AAA and his old MLB 4.75 FIP was many surgeries ago, I’m pretty skeptical of that…but maybe the Mariners aren’t.
If you go by ZiPS he’s projected for a 4.98 FIP. That puts him around Ariel Miranda’s projected FIP.
I know controllable starting pitching costs an arm and a leg at the trade deadline, but maybe it’s a better idea to aim higher or just get a rental.
Well, Longenhagen called O’Neill a walking bicep, so I guess they only paid an arm for a controllable starter.
Don’t forget that a pitch-to-contact type pitcher like Gonzales is likely to significantly outperform his FIP with a lot of soft contact. I call it the Kyle Lohse Effect.
Despite what the article says, Gonzales is actually having a great year in AAA.
this is true. In particular, since he came up for his one MLB start he has been lights out back in AAA.
“Great” if you think that ERA is the best predicitve stat.
watching the games is the best predictive tool, which I doubt you have. You just looked at his stats…
I think it’s worth noting that O’Neill had comparatively little value to the Mariners, given the emergence of Haniger, Gamel, and Heredia. Seems like he didn’t have an obvious path to significant playing time in Seattle.
This is true, but since Gonzales isn’t really an upgrade the main effect of this trade is that they can’t trade O’Neill to someone else (and if not now, during the offseason).
O’Neill is one of those players that amateur prospect hounds like a lot more than the scouts do. He may end up proving the prospect hounds correct, but my point is simply that I don’t think he had all that much trade value right now.
KATOH loves him, so I think he’s the kind of prospect the amateur prospect hounds on Fangraphs like too.
I don’t know whether he had poor trade value right now or if the market for starting pitching is that high, but I think it’s likely that at the minimum the Mariners didn’t think he had much future value.
I thought O’Neil and Gamel would start playing a bit of 1b/DH. Dipoto is always willing to downgrade his talent abit to reshape the roster the way he wants. I think this one ends up hurting for years to come.
Agreed. I don’t have great insight into his negotiation tactics or how he handles trade discussions, but based on available info, it sure seems like he gets fixated on addressing a particular need and rival GMs know that they can offer him mediocre AAAA-type pieces in order to address that need. Frustrating as a M’s fan to watch guys like O’Neill get moved for junk.
I have no problem with prospects getting moved for valuable pieces, and although we’re all prone to overvaluing our team’s prospects, I know they’re not as valuable as we think. It just seems like he’s too willing to accept flawed pieces back who have virtually no upside. I’d rather see these guys get packaged together, or used as part of a bigger trade, to get someone more valuable.
Gamel isn’t emerging. Kinda reminds me of Schawber or Diaz of the cardinals
Not sure how a pitcher coming off elbow surgery who couldn’t stick in the majors before surgery isn’t considered the higher risk part of the package. He’s been bypassed by at least 3 other starters in the Cards organization. This probably is part of another trade for the Cards, since they had way too many OFs as it was.
It’s not that he couldn’t stick in the Majors. It’s that he’s never had much of a chance. He had barely gotten his feet wet at the MLB level when he had those two lost years to injury, and this year the Cardinals’ entire opening day rotation has remained healthy and mostly effective with Weaver also on standby at AAA, while Alex Reyes will be back next year, not to mention Flaherty.
Now that he’s in an organization where he’s not completely blocked, he’ll have a real chance for once, and I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised at how good he is.
“something they see as a lower-risk profile”
I assume you mean talent/skills wise here because pitcher with previous shoulder and elbow issues has got to be up there on the risk profile.
what is more valuable? potential LHP SP or a corner OF who can hit 25 HR. guys who hit 20-25 HR are a dime a dozen now
Potential LHP SP does not equal quality LHP SP or even league average LHP SP.
corner of who can hit 25 hr does not equal quality OF or even league average OF either
I got yr dense pillar of meat right hyeah.
I will be the contrarian viewpoint here and say that Gonzalez could turn into a reasonable pitcher. He’s got a 3 to 1 K/BB ratio in the AAA PCL, his velocity at 90 or 91 will play potentially like a pomeranz or hamels and even if he flops as a SP it is very possible he could turn into a good RP. For O’Neil, an 800ops in the PCL is meh. This one could go either way in 3 to 4 years.
Hamels was 94-95 when he was in the minors.
While this has nothing to do with the performance of Gonzalez ( most likely), the Mariners are bringing Gonzalez ” home”. He dominated in college 3 1/2 hours east of Seattle in Spokane when he went to Gonzaga. Gonzaga routinely has alumni events at Safeco and if anything this could be beneficial in a business sense.
You know what else is beneficial in a business sense? Building a great team and winning ballgames. This move accomplishes neither.
The Mariners have a bad recent track record as far as trades and draft picks (~10 years or so). They’ve had some nice FA signings in Cruz, Cano and Segura, but their other transactions have been been pretty bad.
By far their worst draft whiff was 2005, so it’s more than a decade. But overall it’s hard to know if the problem has been the picks themselves or the inability to develop them (particularly on the non-pitching side).
Yeah. They drafted Adam Jones in 2003, but of course they traded him away for Erik Bedard. Clement in 2005 was so, so bad in retrospect, right ahead of Braun, Zimmerman, Tulowitzki, Pelfrey, Maybin, McCutchen and Bruce. 2006 was also bad, with Brandon Morrow ahead of Kershaw, Andrew Miller, Lincecum and Scherzer. Then there was Ackley 2nd overall in 2009, Danny Hultzen 2nd overall in 2011 and Zunino 3rd overall in 2012. Those last three guys weren’t just bad picks in hindsight, they were bad picks at the time, too.
Ackley was absolutely not a bad pick at the time.
Zunino wasn’t really either. They were both supposed to be high floor guys who would rise quickly to the majors, with good contact skills at up the middle defensive positions. Unfortunately for both the offensive skillset hasn’t wound up where it needs to.
And it’s really hard to separate Zunino’s poor MLB track record thus far from the terrible mishandling of him by the previous front office.
@seattlecougar Zunino has a poor offensive track record? A .774 OPS over the last two seasons is nothing to sneeze at. It ranks 11th out of 33 catchers with >= 400 PA in ’16-’17.
That was the consensus back then and yet I never understood why he was so highly regarded. He played first base at Carolina, but he was so gifted at hitting the ball in college that people were willing to overlook his defensive limitations. We knew at the time that he had a weak arm, good but not exceptional speed, and a build that didn’t appear to have the capacity to add much additional strength. It really shouldn’t have been a surprise that he never hit for much power or that he struggled to find a home on defense.
Ackley is +19 DRS and 5.8 UZR/150 career at second base.
True, second base is the only thing he could play due the combination of a weak arm and mediocre range.
2B is not low on the defensive spectrum. He’s WELL above average at 2B and at least adequate in the outfield and 1B. That’s nobody’s definition of defensively limited. Everything you can say about Dustin Ackley you could say about early-career Ian Kinsler, only Kinsler didn’t have the same hype that Ackley did.
Ackley’s bat didn’t show up, that’s all. Don’t make up some narrative about defensive weakness.
Hultzen was absolutely not a bad pick at the time either. The only bad thing about him is that he’s a pitcher, and pitchers break. But he was on the fast track to superstardom.
And while it’s fair to judge them for Morrow, they just as easily could have wound up with Robert Stubbs or William Rowell (or Brad Lincoln, who was picked one spot ahead of him).
What I find weird is that you left out what I think is the worst one of all–Alex Jackson. Here are ALL of the picks immediately following Jackson: Aaron Nola, Kyle Freeland, Jeff Hoffman, Michael Conforto, Max Pentecost, Kodi Medeiros, Trea Turner, Tyler Beede, Sean Newcomb, Touki Touissant, Eric Fedde. That’s an incredible list of prospects. And that’s leaving out some good names after that too. The Mariners basically could have picked *anyone* other than Jackson and been better off, and with the exception of Medeiros and Pentecost they’d be much better off. That’s not something you can say about busted draft picks often.
Alex Jackson was the consensus best HS bat at the time, wasn’t he?
You realize it was a completely different front office that drafted Jackson, right?
Also, outside of Nola, Conforto and Turner, those are all marginal prospects in your list. It was a wasted pick in hindsight, to be sure, but it’s not like all the players who went after him are likely to have long major league careers.
Segura came over via trade
Yeah, not all of Dipoto’s trades have been bad. And sometimes, some which are puzzlers become “OOOH, now I see what he was thinking” a short while later.
However this one, in any case, is a bit of a head scratcher at the present time.
Segura was acquired vis trade not as a FA signing
The timing of this deal is what’s most confusing to me. Prices are always higher at the deadline and while I get O’Neill’s outlook seems to be pretty poor in the industry, he’s heated up tremendously and it doesn’t seem like his stock can go down anymore after his awful first half. Why not let him rake for 3 months and deal him in the offseason when you can typically acquire pitching for a little less than at the deadline? Gonzales doesn’t seem to move the needle now so the rush to trade O’Neill for an asset that doesn’t improve your playoff odds is weird. I can’t imagine the Cardinals wouldn’t have done this deal in the offseason too.
A really important part of this that can’t be overlooked: Marco Gonzales is out of options next season.
Cardinals gonna work some of that devil magic on him
Having the good fortune to see Sierra play several AA,ballgames.
He has excellent speed,and could become a solid leadoff hitter.
Reminds me of Whitey Herzogs outfielders,back in the go go 1980s.
What makes this hurt more is this week both Gohara and Yarbrough hit their career strikeouts for a game this past week.
Luiz Gohara and Thomas Burrows. Gohara Seattle’s once No. 5-ranked prospect, Burrows was ranked No. 25.
Then left-hander Ryan Yarbrough– their No. 13 prospect — and Minor League shortstop Carlos Vargas to Tampa Bay along recently acquired Smith. Sadly neither Smyly or Simmons has done anything for us.
Now Gonzales, another pitcher with arm issues.
Technically a AAA pitcher with a few cups of coffee where he did ok.
I’m still hoping Posse gets a shot to start. Don’t understand the bullpen switch at all when we need 4/5 starters. Bad luck and questionable use of what we already had unfortunately led to this trade.
His name is spelled “Gonzales”.
“Make enough of these trades and you’re going to end up giving away a star for someone who isn’t any good.”
I think Chris Taylor for Zach Lee already fits this bill. It’s BABIP-inflated, sure, but Taylor’s been worth 3.2 WAR in a half-season as a super-utility guy, and he would likely be a starting shortstop on most other teams.
The Segura/Haniger trade buys DiPoto a lot of good will, but I’m not loving his approach to the farm system.