Maybe Agents Have No Leverage, Either

If you don’t follow college football, you may not be familiar with Baker Mayfield. He is the quarterback for the University of Oklahoma, the reigning Heisman Trophy winner, and a player who is expected to be selected in the first round of April’s NFL draft. What is his relevance to the pages of FanGraphs? Well, what is interesting to me about Mayfield is that he might not hire an agent to represent him.

Writes Mike Florio of NBCSports:

The argument against hiring an agent is simple: Thanks to the rookie wage scale, contracts for incoming players basically negotiate themselves. (Also, agent fees are no longer tax-deductible.)

Earlier today, Nathaniel Grow addressed the difficult situation in which the players union has found itself vis-à-vis owners. “The MLBPA Has No Leverage,” is how Grow titled that post. With baseball having introduced limits on amateur spending and having added recommended bonus for draft bonuses, it’s possible that more high-profile baseball prospects will question whether or not an agent is necessary when entering professional baseball. Several recent first-rounders like Hunter Harvey and Kyle Parker opted to negotiate for themselves and to varying degrees of success.

While negotiating pro contracts for amateur baseball prospects is more complicated than in, say, football as teams try to gauge signability and maximize their bonus pools and agents filter information for prospects, etc., what happens when negotiating major-league contracts becomes less and less about art and more and more about science? How will player representatives add value then?

Is it possible, to borrow Grow’s language, that agents have no leverage, either?

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In this information age, measuring and forecasting player value has become so much a science that ultimately many — including, I imagine, all 30 major-league teams — are trying to assign a dollar-value to on-field performance and forecasts. Those values are arrived at using much of the same methodology and approach, and there is similar information available in the public realm.

In fact, the crowd — the general public — has become quite good at estimating contract values.

As highlighted earlier this month at Fangraphs, Max Rieper of Royals Review found that, from 2013 to -17, free agents who signed before Jan. 1 received guaranteed dollars 4.0% above FanGraphs’ crowdsourced estimates. Pretty accurate! (Free agents who signed after Jan. 1, meanwhile, received 25.3% less than FanGraphs’ estimates.)

So, in the first half of the offseason, before the approach of spring training begins to produce anxiety in players, the crowd does pretty well.

Let’s see how the crowd is doing in its predictions for contracts this offseason. Through Jan. 16, 21 of Dave Cameron’s top-50 free agents have signed. In the following table, I compare those actual contract values with the crowdsourced median predictions.

(Note: since we forgot to crowdsource Tyler Chatwood, I have substituted Cameron’s prediction.)

The Crowd’s Contract Predictions to Date
Crowd Actual
Rank Name Years $ Years $
4 Carlos Santana 3 $45 3 $60
7 Wade Davis 4 $60 3 $52
9 Zack Cozart 4 $60 3 $38
12 CC Sabathia 2 $26 1 $10
14 Jay Bruce 3 $39 3 $39
16 Brandon Morrow 2 $18 2 $21
17 Tyler Chatwood* 3 $30 3 $38
19 Addison Reed 3 $27 2 $17
22 Mike Minor 3 $27 3 $28
24 Bryan Shaw 3 $21 3 $27
25 Joe Smith 2 $12 2 $15
27 Anthony Swarzak 2 $14 2 $14
29 Yonder Alonso 2 $20 2 $16
31 Juan Nicasio 2 $16 2 $17
32 Pat Neshek 2 $16 2 $16
37 Michael Pineda 2 $16 2 $10
38 Jake McGee 3 $24 3 $27
39 Tommy Hunter 2 $12 2 $18
40 Steve Cishek 2 $12 2 $13
47 Brandon Kintzler 2 $14 2 $10
48 Welington Castillo 2 $18 2 $15
49 Doug Fister 1 $8 1 $4
Total 54 $535 50 $505
Average 2.5 $24.3 2.3 $23.0

The crowd has been perfect in predicting some contracts: Jay Bruce and Pat Neshek, for example, signed for precisely the same terms predicted by respondents. It’s been very close on a number of others, as well.

Regarding the length of the contracts, the crowd has been very close, predicting a total of 54 years for the 21 players in this same. The actual contracts total 50 years. As for the guaranteed dollars, it’s also close. The crowd forecast $535 million ($9.8 in annual average value) while the actual dollars total $505 million ($10.1 million AAV).

Not bad!

While the crowd doesn’t have the same sort access of to medical records, scouting reports, and Statcast data as clubs, they have still exhibited a rather strong understanding of how the market values player performance. Also interesting is that, from 2013 to -17, the crowd was 4% above the actual contracts signed prior to the New Year. This winter, the crowd is 5.9% over. Again, a sign of a strong understanding of how the market values players.

The point here is really more of a question: what happens when the art of the deal becomes the science of the deal? If readers of this site can collectively predict the terms to which a player a player will ultimately agree, what use is negotiation? What becomes of the role of the agent? How must he or she evolve? How difficult is it to create markets and enhance the perception of players?

There will always be some sort of role for agents to play, but it seems they have been removed from what has previously been regarded as their main job — namely, to create leverage for their clients. Will certain players, in certain phases of their careers, consider the possibility of not hiring an agent to avoid losing a percentage of income?

Just as agents might have to adapt to MLB teams slow playing free agency, they might also have to learn how to interject more art into the process.

Scott Boras has been creative in going around front offices, though that tactic might not be sustainable. Last offseason, James Wagner wrote a terrific piece for the New York Times, providing some insight on how Yoenis Cespedes’s agents — CAA Baseball’s Brodie Van Wagenen and Kyle Thousand — pitched their client to the Mets last winter. With the help of an outside firm, CAA attempted to value Cespedes beyond his on-field contributions, including the quantification of variables like the 50 back-page tabloids featuring Cespedes ($3.2 million).

It was creative. Did it work? The crowd’s median prediction was five years and $118.4 million ($24 million AAV). Cespedes signed a four-year, $110-million deal (or, $27.5 million AAV) on Nov. 29, 2016, back when star free agents agreed to new contracts before the New Year.

It was, if nothing else, a creative way to extract and quantify value in a valuation game that is increasingly becoming more and more scientific. It is a valuation environment in which agents are going to have to be more creative to find ways to put some art back into the negotiation of a deal.





A Cleveland native, FanGraphs writer Travis Sawchik is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, Big Data Baseball. He also contributes to The Athletic Cleveland, and has written for the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, among other outlets. Follow him on Twitter @Travis_Sawchik.

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TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago

The statement that football draftee contracts are less complicated than baseball draftee contracts is extremely dubious.
Also, there have been many stories written about players representing themselves with poor results.

martyvan90Member since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

NFL contracts are significantly “slotted” I believe that was Travis’ point.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  martyvan90

While it’s true that the number of years and total dollar amount of the contract is more or less set, there are still more points of negotiations than Travis implies – https://www.si.com/mmqb/2017/05/16/nfl-rookie-contracts-fine-print

Summarizing, NFL teams and draftees still negotiate deferral terms on bonuses, the number of years that are guaranteed, offset language, whether the contract includes any split (meaning the player receives less money if he is on IR), and voiding.

I’m pretty sure that TKDC is correct here that these contracts are more complicated than baseball draftee contracts and is being downvoted due to people just seeing years and dollars on NFL rookie contracts and not understanding any of the very important subtleties of them. Aren’t baseball draftee contracts just set as standard minor league contracts where the amount of the bonus is negotiable (within the context of a team’s overall pool) but terms such as date of payment of the bonus are already set?

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Yes, this was my point. Baseball is just dollar amount of the bonus. Football has all sorts of other aspects besides the years/dollars.

bohknowsbmore
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

“The statement that football draftee contracts are less complicated than baseball draftee contracts is extremely dubious.”
I would disagree. Football draftees have nearly preset terms now and there is nothing like a major league deal vs. minor league deal, overslot/underslot, etc. of baseball.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  bohknowsbmore

There is nothing like a major league deal vs. minor league deal in the baseball draft now either. Major league deals for draft picks went away in the 2012 CBA.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago

Re going agentless: you don’t have to have no leverage to have leverage that isn’t worth 10% (or whatever).

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago

I’m pretty sure that the current standard for agent fees is more like 3%.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Hence the “or whatever.” The point should be clear. If the agent’s fee is $2.75, then the agent’s leverage or negotiating skill has to be worth an additional ride on the subway to the player.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago

My point is that it doesn’t take much to get an extra 3%. Many of the contracts that we see as “almost spot on” in the crowdsourcing above still vary by more than 3% from the prediction, such as Nicasio (6.7%) and Cishek (8.3%).

mshwiesner
8 years ago

Reporting the average only shows that the crowd is able to predict total spending across all free agents, but not really at predicting individual contracts which is what the claim is. The predictions could all be very low and very high and then averaging as in the article, it would look like the crowd knew what they were doing, when in reality they just equally many contracts horribly wrong in both directions.

Looking at deviations is more useful I think, but the duration of the contract complicates things. Assuming the contract value is distributed uniformly over the duration of the contract ( which I realize is not how it works), we can get the crowds per year estimate of the player’s worth

I took the relative error between per year worth according to the crowd’s prediction and the actual contracts. Here’s the histogram.

bins freqs
-1
-0.9
-0.8
-0.7
-0.6
-0.5
-0.4
-0.3 —
-0.2 ———
-0.1 ————
0 ———
0.1 ————
0.2 —
0.3 ——
0.4 —
0.5 —
0.6
0.7 —
0.8
0.9
1
1.1 —

So the crowd is predicting a little high, but is basically good. It’s not bimodal as feared. It’s hard to draw conclusions from a sample size of 50 though.

mshwiesner
8 years ago
Reply to  mshwiesner

Sorry. Sample size of ~20.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

Mike Florio also had another post about all the little things agents do.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/23/good-agents-do-a-lot-more-than-negotiate-contracts/

Also, it is not wise to think that free agents are going to be as skilled negotiators as the ones MLB teams hire. That’s not say that some players would eventually be good agents if they put the work in, but probably not when they’re trying to play well enough to stay in the league.

So agents often pay for themselves, and sometimes much more so. Agents might not be able to add much value, but they can protect against subtracting it.

fjtorres
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Not so little things.
Some of the better agencies are life coaches and nannies for their clients. For foreign players, good agents are vital to getting the player culturally acclimated.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think a big point is that any player (or at least good player) is only likely to go through free agency a handful of times in his career, so he’s simply not going to have much experience with the process. And the first trip through free agency is normally the big contract, when the value of knowing the process can make the most impact in getting a player guaranteed money. Maybe a player learns through experience and gets better at self-representing himself by the time he’s 36, but at that point there are only so many incremental dollars to be made in free agency.

There are a lot of little details that agents with experience as repeat players negotiating these contracts should understand better than a player. They’ll understand how to leak selective details of contract offers to flush out the last dollars from a bidder, and they’ll have ongoing relationships with the Jon Heyman’s, Ken Rosenthal’s, and J.P. Morosi’s of the world to get that information out there at the right time. They’ll have a better sense of the negotiating styles of different front offices such as willingness to move upward from initial offers.

I’d also be very surprised if a player – or anyone else – would do a decent job in an arbitration hearing without some experience in that process. If a team truly wanted to save money on arbitration, I think that it would stick to its guns on its arbitration offer to a self-represented player figuring that the team would have a big advantage in knowing how to present at an arb hearing.

HandsomeBoyModel
8 years ago

Having an agent for superstar NBA players is also pretty useless considering the contracts are all the same.

srpst23Member since 2025
8 years ago

But wouldn’t the superstar NBA player need the agent to find/negotiate endorsement deals? After all, Jordan made way more money in endorsements than he did playing basketball.

OddBall Herrera
8 years ago

Yeah, I would love to see Lebron’s agent’s negotiating tactics:

“What’s the biggest contract? Ok, that one”

AnonMember since 2025
8 years ago

I don’t know how widespread it is (probably not very), but I know Ray Allen did this back at the peak of his career with the Bucks. He knew he was getting a max deal so he simply hired an attorney at hourly rates to review the contract:

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/feb/11/sports/sp-7182

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago

Even beyond srpst23’s point, I don’t think that’s the case.

Yes, the max contract NBA rules do limit the top-tier of NBA salaries because the very top-tier superstars are worth more to teams than the max contract.

There are still some subtleties to these contracts, however. LeBron, for example, maximized his leverage to make sure that he agreed with Cleveland’s other roster moves by signing multiple consecutive contracts where he could opt out 1 or 2 years into the deal.

With so many superstars wanting to go for championships on teams with other really good players, I would think that agents for top-level superstars also serve as non-front office voices who will explain to their clients what’s possible for a team under the NBA cap rules (not just in paying their clients, but for building out a team around them) and if front offices are being honest about those possibilities.

Apparently Chris Paul, for example, forced his sign-and-trade to Houston structured in a manner in which he opted into the last year of his contract (when Paul could have otherwise been a free agent) and then kept open the possibility of a super-max extension for more money because Paul was traded rather than leaving as a free agent. I’m not going to claim that I understand every financial detail of what that means, but the NBA’s CBA is complicated enough that there are a lot of ways for agents to add value for their superstar clients, monetarily and otherwise (i.e., telling their clients ways to get to their preferred team with other good players).

Jetsy Extrano
8 years ago

Sure, the teams know exactly how they value a draftee, but does the draftee know what that is? How does he extract what they’re willing to pay?

OddBall Herrera
8 years ago

Sure, the day that agents could talk their way into huge contracts for big name guys are either over or ending.

However, I fail to see how agents could not regain leverage simply by joining the data age. Why couldn’t, should a team say their models value a player at X, the agent simply respond with “I’ve got this other model that says Y”? Projections and modeling are not a science after all, they are simply the products of (usually very informed and rigorous, but not inarguable) decisions about how to weight present data w.r.t calculating future probabilities. No reason why agents can’t make a competing projection and a good argument for why theirs is more representative. Leverage would then consist of a game of chicken over who trusts their data more.

This is probably more effective with players whose future outcomes are more speculative (ex: Hosmer), than with players who have established a long and stable baseline, but it’s something.

ThrasiusMember since 2016
8 years ago

Boras has a fairly large analytics staff, reportedly the largest among MLB agents. Though those same reports state that it isn’t nearly as sophisticated as a front office’s staff, particularly due to the lack of proprietary data like Statcast.

Aaron Judge's Gavel
8 years ago

This is a great point and I think goes along with what Travis is saying. The negotiation seems to be going away from “hey my dude hit 40 jacks last year, now pay up;” it’s now much more “what are you GOING to do for the length of the contract I’m signing you for and how much is a win worth on the market?”

There is still room to negotiate of course, but it seems to be a different conversation than it used to be. For instance, take a look at the unsigned Todd Frazier’s publicly available projections: Depth Charts (which right now is still just Steamer projections with playing time adjustments) pegs him for 2.4 fWAR (101 wRC+ in 595 PAs) for the upcoming season; meanwhile ZiPS has him all the way up at 3.5 zWAR (115 wRC+ in 583 PAs). That is a pretty massive discrepancy. So the negotiation then becomes basically about what assumptions you’re making and how your valuation model works.

scooter262
8 years ago

Let me just say that I won’t shed any tears if agents go the way of the buggy whip makers.

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  scooter262

I wouldn’t shed any tears if owners went away, too.

d_iMember since 2016
8 years ago

It’s the same dynamic that exists is selling a home now. Why pay 5% fee when 75% of the work is just getting it listed online. I think the market factors are for a decrease in these types of transaction costs both in homes and in baseball. As information becomes more ubiquitous and standardized among the parties involved, there is less of a value proposition to offer.

TADontAsk
8 years ago
Reply to  d_i

It might be a similar dynamic, but as someone who just sold their home a few months ago, I’m very glad I had an agent. Sure, 75% of the work is getting it online, but it’s work I didn’t have to worry about doing. And the bigger issue would have been getting things done professionally. A guy down the street took his own pictures and posted his own listing. My agent had professionals come in to take pictures and also to create a 3D walkthrough. Exactly when it was listed was also carefully planned. Guess which place sold in under a week? That was absolutely value provided by my agent. As some of the other posters have said, unless you have thorough experience and knowledge of negotiating tactics, it doesn’t hurt to pay a little bit more to have someone with experience on your side.

v2miccaMember since 2016
8 years ago

In the case of case of Baker Mayfield, you could concede he has a point. Let’s say he is taken at the number 6 spot by the Jets. One could argue with the slot assignments in the NFL, he could get away with hiring a lawyer that specializes in contract law, tell the Jets to just give him the Jamal Adams contract (last year’s number 6 overall pick) plus 3 percent to adjust for the increase Salary Cap. Let the Lawyer confirm the contract and go from there.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago

“Just as agents might have to adapt to MLB teams slow playing free agency, they might also have to learn how to interject more art into the process.”

I think it’s just as plausible that, between lots of Boras clients and other agents (and their clients) seeing the results that he’s historically gotten by waiting, it’s the agents who are slow playing free agency this year.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago

“If readers of this site can collectively predict the terms to which a player a player will ultimately agree, what use is negotiation?”

One answer there is that, in the context of what I understand to be a standard agent’s fee (3%), it doesn’t take that much to move the needle enough to be worth the fee.

The chart above, for example, shows summary terms. Let’s look at the potential value difference between McGee and Minor, who signed contract that summarize very similarly as 3 / $27 million and 3 / $28 million, respectively, looking at contract details on their respective Fangraphs pages.

McGee’s payout structure is $7 million / $8.5 million / $9.5 million, with a $9 million team option / $2 million buyout for the 4th year. The option vests by hitting certain thresholds of games pitched (or finished) in 2020, or 2019-20. There are total incentives of up to $4 million (unclear exactly what they are).

Minor’s payout structure is $9 million ($1 million of which is a signing bonus) / $9.5 million / $9.5 million. It’s not reported to include any team options or incentives.

Is it intuitive which of those contracts is more valuable from the player’s perspective?

Minor gets money earlier in his contract, and maybe he can get some decent additional value by reaching free agency again after 2020 as a 33 year old.

McGee can get more (4 / $38 million) if he hits his incentives (the terms of which are unclear) and is healthy at the end of 2020 while meeting his appearance threshold of either 60 games in 2020 or 110 games total between 2019-20. And perhaps if he’s good enough to hit his incentives he’d really prefer to be a free agent than have the Rockies bring him back for 2021 at an incremental $7 million, but then again the 4 / $34 million total (sans incentives) he could get by being healthy but just not particularly good in 2019/2020 does have appeal versus hitting free agency as a mediocre 34 year old reliever.

And that’s just on the relatively minor details. It’s not even getting to whether an agent who understands the free agency negotiating process and – crucially – has gone through it far more times than any individual player got an extra couple of million on the summary terms of guaranteed money for x years.

I agree that some agents almost certainly aren’t highly competent at their jobs, and the worst horror stories are the agents who have been outright crooks who stole from their clients. The fact is, however, that even Juan Nicasio at 2/$17 million versus 2/$16 million had an agent who incrementally earned a 3% fee versus Nicasio’s crowd-sourced projection. And Nicasio’s $4 million of incentives based on games finished is still more potential value on top of that 2/$17 million.

RoyalsFan#14321Member since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Heck, the difference between $28M and $27M is greater than 3% – worth the price of the agent, I would think (without concern of the other issues).

Psychic... Powerless...
8 years ago

Thought-provoking stuff, Travis!

Paul22
8 years ago

When an entire industry adopts the same valuation model for players thats collusion. If such a model is arrived at independently there should be significant differences. You will see significant differences in the 3-4 publicly available WAR numbers, so certainly 30 separate analytic departments with proprietary methods and teams having different needs and revenues should be attaching different valuations to many players .

You lose your wallet in in a room with a convicted thief in it who are you going to suspect. MLB has paid out on collusion charges 4 separate occasions. Take a closer look.

bohknowsbmore
8 years ago

RE: Hunter Harvey not employing an agent, his father was an MLB pitcher and his older brother pitched in the minors for several years, so they may have had greater insight into the industry/process than the average draftee.

DBA455
8 years ago

I think there is still a place for agents – who presumably are experienced negotiators – in these proceedings.

For something like pre-ordained slot dollars – sure. Don’t bother paying the vig.

But for your typical free agent contract, keep in mind that
(a) the projections being about right in aggregate doesn’t mean they are precisely right for each player. And small increments can be big dollars
(b) just because front offices are filled with smart analysts who know the fair market of a player, it certainly doesn’t mean that’s what they’ll *offer* said player. In fact, they have every incentive to do otherwise.
(c) the core competency of elite athletes is probably not to be an expert in compensation
(d) this is not a true “auction”, where the player is assured of getting the highest bid. There is presumably some value for having an ongoing dialogue with 30 front offices (and the pulse on the non-US markets, where applicable) to assess their interests, what player attributes they may value more highly than others, etc. As well as a broad knowledge of precedent – e.g., here are some things other players have asked for/clubs have been willing to provide that you as a player might not have thought of – given you presumably are spending your time maximizing your playing ability, not your knowledge of transaction arcana.

It’s entirely plausible to me that in some cases – perhaps many cases – an agent can eke out an extra 5%+ for a player, thereby more than paying for himself.

And no, I am not an agent. But if I could have Scott Boras negotiate my next paycheck, I think I’d like the outcome better than doing it myself.

La Vie en Bleu
8 years ago

The crowd’s opinion is uninformed and selective.
The Dodgers signed an excellent pitcher – Tom Koehler. Yet, their fanbase doesn’t even know that he’s far superior to Darvish – let alone know how to measure talent.

fjtorres
8 years ago

Agents also serve one oft neglected role: as a buffer between management and the player. Negotiations can get pretty adversarial at times, especially pre-FA, when management counters salary demands by bringing up the player’s shortcomings.

lubs12
8 years ago

Are there any studies that show the long term value of contracts signed early in the free agent period, versus those signed later? In other words, perhaps December free agent signings prove to be even more of an eventual sunk cost than January/February free agent signings?

Beep Boop
8 years ago

“Will certain players, in certain phases of their careers, consider the possibility of not hiring an agent to avoid losing a percentage of income?”

Not if those players have any sense. The only reason why the crowdsourced predictions are close to the actuals, is because “the crowd” has the time and resources to study all of the publicly available data to quantify a player’s value. Does your average professional athlete have the resources to do all that without some kind of outside help?

This article possibly makes the case for robo-agents, if the value of agents are limited to representation during contract negotiations. A giant database of player valuations (presumably with the access to data sources equivalent to what agents have today) could theoretically churn out fair FA contracts within percentage points of human-human negotiations.

Sadtrombone linked an article describing all of the other things an agent does, which largely boils down to access to a bunch of high end financial, legal, health, and personal assistance resources, which would likely cost more than the 15% cut if anyone were to try retain them on their own.

Agents in the future may no longer need to be salesmen, but professional athletes will continue to need representation.

Jason BMember since 2017
8 years ago

Why would you not look at the absolute value of the “estimates vs. actual” chart? Aggregating everything at the end invalidates everything that came before it.

As a simplistic example, if I guess a player will receive 1 year, $25MM and another will receive 1 year, $1MM and they both receive 1 year, $13MM, then in absolute terms I missed BADLY on both; however in the aggregate (total of 2 years, $26MM) I was spot on!

paperlions
8 years ago

To determine if agents add value you have to take the agents out of the equation. The current data are contracts negotiated WITH AN AGENT…and the crowd estimates are a little high, but that is partly because the crowd is used to contracts negotiated by agents and that is unconsciously baked into to their feel for value.

If you take agents out of the negotiation process, I am willing to bet that suddenly the crowd is closer to 15-20% over in their estimates. The fact that the crowd can guess what agents negotiate doesn’t mean the agents don’t provide value, it just means that the crowd knows what to expect. Take out the agents and I bet the crowd is no longer so close in their guesses.

Daniel
8 years ago
Reply to  paperlions

I’ll tack on to Paperlion’s point — the value of the agent is in proving to teams’ satisfaction that every bit of the player’s value is “on the table” and being paid for. If the agent can convince two teams that the value is real, they already know what the value is worth and have now got to outbid a rival. Which sets the “obvious” value of the contracts for public schmucks like ourselves.