Mets Acquire Lindor, Carrasco in Blockbuster Trade
For years, rumors have circulated that Francisco Lindor was available in trade. Cleveland, ever penny-pinching, always looked unlikely to sign him to an extension. He’s due to reach free agency after this season, which put a clock on the situation. Today, that clock struck midnight. As first reported by Jeff Passan, the Mets have acquired Lindor and Carlos Carrasco in exchange for Amed Rosario, Andrés Giménez, Josh Wolf, and Isaiah Greene.
It’s easy to like New York’s side of the deal. Lindor is one of the 10 or so best position players in baseball, and at 27, he’s just entering his prime. In addition, he’s one of the best defensive shortstops in the game, a huge upgrade for a team that induces a ton of grounders.
He’s a free agent after this year, of course, which limited Cleveland’s return for him, but the Mets have talked all offseason about signing marquee free agents, and Lindor blows this year’s crop out of the water. None of the available free agents this winter project for more than J.T. Realmuto’s 4.1 WAR, and none of the top 10 are younger than 30. Lindor is better, younger, and arguably more marketable than anyone on that list, and it’s not particularly close.
Most of the best hitters in baseball get there by, well, hitting. Lindor does that too — Steamer and ZiPS think he’ll be the third-best batter at the shortstop position in 2021 — but he gets an outsize proportion of his value from defense. From 2018 to 2020, he’s been the second-best shortstop defender in baseball per UZR, behind only Andrelton Simmons. DRS has him fourth, behind Simmons, Paul DeJong, and Nick Ahmed. Per Outs Above Average, he’s second only to Ahmed. No matter how you slice it, his defense is stellar.
If you plug Ahmed or Simmons (and probably DeJong, too) into your lineup, you’re sacrificing offense for defense. Not so with Lindor. His worst season at the plate was 2020, but even then, he managed a .258/.335/.415 line, good for a 100 wRC+. For his career, he’s a .285/.346/.488 hitter, a line buoyed by his phenomenal contact skills. Despite an aggressive approach at the plate, he strikes out only 14.1% of the time while walking at an average rate, which gives him a high floor.
Though he brings plenty of other positive qualities to the table, that contact skill is his only true standout offensive ability. He displayed shocking power in 2018, barreling up 9.3% of his batted balls on the way to 38 home runs, but for the most part, he gets to his stats by being roughly average when he makes contact while making far more contact than the average hitter. In his career, he’s accumulated a .383 xwOBA on contact and a .380 actual wOBA on contact, a hair higher than the .376 and .370 marks the league as a whole has accrued over the same time period. Even average power plays up when you get so many opportunities, though, which is how he put together three straight 30-homer seasons from 2017 to 2019.
That total package works out to a good but hardly overpowering hitter, one who would be above average at any position on the diamond without approaching the rarefied air of the Mike Trouts and Juan Sotos of the world. Combine it with the defense, and you get something special. ZiPS thinks Lindor will continue to put up MVP-caliber seasons for years to come:
| Year | BA | OBP | SLG | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | SB | OPS+ | DR | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2021 | .268 | .335 | .487 | 628 | 101 | 168 | 38 | 2 | 32 | 88 | 60 | 106 | 20 | 122 | 8 | 5.8 |
| 2022 | .267 | .336 | .494 | 599 | 97 | 160 | 39 | 2 | 31 | 85 | 58 | 104 | 17 | 124 | 7 | 5.6 |
| 2023 | .265 | .335 | .486 | 584 | 94 | 155 | 38 | 2 | 29 | 82 | 57 | 99 | 16 | 122 | 6 | 5.2 |
| 2024 | .264 | .331 | .481 | 565 | 90 | 149 | 35 | 2 | 28 | 79 | 54 | 93 | 16 | 120 | 5 | 4.7 |
| 2025 | .262 | .330 | .479 | 545 | 85 | 143 | 33 | 2 | 27 | 75 | 52 | 87 | 16 | 119 | 4 | 4.4 |
What might Lindor command in free agency? The Mookie Betts extension provides a general guide. Betts got 12 years and $365 million in new salary commitments, and like Lindor, his first season of free agency will be his age-28 season. That’s a significantly bigger outlay than we expect it to take to sign George Springer, the free agent the Mets have been most linked to, but if Springer gets the deal we expect, Lindor won’t be meaningfully more expensive per year, and he’ll be 40 at the end of his deal as compared to 36 for Springer. He’s also, you know, Francisco Lindor.
If Lindor were the only piece headed to Queens, Mets fans would have every right to be ecstatic. In keeping with their perpetual goal of shedding salary, however, Cleveland also included Carrasco in the deal. He isn’t the generational talent that Lindor is, but he’s an excellent second starter or an absurdly overqualified third starter if you think Noah Syndergaard slots into the number two spot upon his return.
That statement in itself is a remarkable one considering the adversity Carrasco has faced. In 2019, coming off a dominant two-year stretch, he was diagnosed with leukemia. After a three-month battle with the disease, he returned to the team as a reliever in September, then picked up where he’d left off in 2020, delivering 12 starts and a 2.91 ERA (3.65 xFIP). His walk rate ballooned, but he otherwise roughly resembled his former dominant self.
It’s easy to call Carrasco an inspiring story and leave it at that, but that sells him short by a good margin. He was the 22nd-best pitcher in baseball in 2020 by WAR and 12th-best by RA9-WAR. He’s not doing it with smoke and mirrors, either: he induced swinging strikes on 15.1% of his pitches, the seventh-best mark among starters. If the Mets didn’t already have Jacob deGrom, we’d be calling Carrasco their ace.
Unlike Lindor, Carrasco isn’t approaching free agency. He’s under contract for two more years at $13 million per year, a bargain for the production that ZiPS expects:
| Year | W | L | ERA | G | GS | IP | H | ER | HR | BB | SO | ERA+ | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2021 | 11 | 7 | 3.60 | 27 | 23 | 142.7 | 123 | 57 | 21 | 37 | 166 | 118 | 2.9 |
| 2022 | 10 | 7 | 3.62 | 24 | 21 | 126.7 | 111 | 51 | 19 | 33 | 144 | 117 | 2.5 |
| 2023 | 9 | 7 | 3.83 | 24 | 20 | 124.7 | 112 | 53 | 20 | 33 | 140 | 111 | 2.2 |
| 2024 | 9 | 6 | 3.80 | 22 | 19 | 116.0 | 104 | 49 | 18 | 31 | 130 | 111 | 2.1 |
| 2025 | 7 | 6 | 3.96 | 20 | 17 | 102.3 | 94 | 45 | 17 | 28 | 114 | 107 | 1.7 |
Of note, ZiPS is a far better forecaster of talent level than playing time. Pitchers are always one ligament away from the Injured List, but if Carrasco hits our Depth Charts projection of 174 innings pitched, that works out to a 3.5 WAR season — roughly equivalent to Blake Snell, Stephen Strasburg, or Aaron Nola. Carrasco is older than those three — he’ll be 34 this season — but pitchers break more so than they age, and a healthy Carrasco will give the Mets another stud pitcher to complement deGrom, Syndergaard, and Marcus Stroman.
Carrasco also has a vesting option that kicks in if he pitches 170 innings in 2022 and is healthy to start 2023. At $15 million, it’s a bargain if he’s healthy and effective, and it carries a $3 million buyout if he doesn’t reach that 170 IP threshold. All in all, Carrasco looks like both an excellent pitcher and a financial bargain — production in the same general zip code as former teammate Trevor Bauer on a wildly cheaper contract.
To get these two huge upgrades, the Mets parted with two major league shortstops and two prospects. Rosario was the everyday shortstop in New York in 2018 and ’19 after debuting in late ’17. He initially struggled defensively, but started to put things together there as 2019 wore on. At the same time, he took a step forward on offense, paring his free-swinging ways back to unlock his solid bat-to-ball skills.
2020 was a rough one for Rosario. He struggled at the plate, swinging too often at bad pitches. His strikeout rate climbed to 23.1%, his walk rate fell to an abysmal 2.7%, and he didn’t hit for the sneaky power he’d shown in previous years. All told, it led to a 76 wRC+, a big step back from his form in late 2019.
In fact, he struggled so much that he lost playing time to Giménez, who is also headed to Cleveland. Giménez was a less-heralded prospect than Rosario, but he outplayed him in 2020. His game profiles very similarly, though with less power — he’s aggressive at the plate and has good bat-to-ball skills. At only 5-foot-11 to Rosario’s 6-foot-2, he’s less likely to grow into more power, but he displayed the skills of an average major leaguer in tough circumstances in 2020, and he’s still only 22.
ZiPS sees Rosario as an average contributor right this minute:
| Year | BA | OBP | SLG | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | SB | OPS+ | DR | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2021 | .283 | .316 | .431 | 575 | 77 | 163 | 27 | 8 | 14 | 61 | 26 | 119 | 16 | 96 | -3 | 1.9 |
| 2022 | .282 | .317 | .437 | 549 | 74 | 155 | 27 | 8 | 14 | 59 | 26 | 117 | 15 | 98 | -3 | 1.9 |
| 2023 | .281 | .317 | .442 | 545 | 74 | 153 | 27 | 8 | 15 | 60 | 27 | 121 | 15 | 99 | -3 | 2.0 |
Those three years will all be in Cleveland short of another trade. Rosario projects to earn $2.2 million in arbitration this year, his first year of eligibility. For a team that is perpetually shedding salary and trying to save a few pennies, that’s an attractive quality.
If you’re more into team control than 2021 production, Giménez looks even better:
| Year | BA | OBP | SLG | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | SB | OPS+ | DR | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2021 | .248 | .306 | .381 | 436 | 59 | 108 | 19 | 6 | 9 | 40 | 23 | 108 | 26 | 81 | 3 | 1.3 |
| 2022 | .257 | .316 | .418 | 421 | 60 | 108 | 21 | 7 | 11 | 43 | 24 | 101 | 26 | 93 | 4 | 2.0 |
| 2023 | .254 | .316 | .424 | 429 | 62 | 109 | 21 | 8 | 12 | 45 | 26 | 108 | 26 | 94 | 4 | 2.1 |
| 2024 | .252 | .316 | .425 | 428 | 62 | 108 | 21 | 7 | 13 | 46 | 27 | 111 | 24 | 95 | 4 | 2.1 |
| 2025 | .252 | .319 | .430 | 428 | 63 | 108 | 21 | 8 | 13 | 47 | 29 | 113 | 24 | 96 | 4 | 2.2 |
With a whopping five years of team control remaining, Giménez looks like he can join Rosario as an average middle-infield corps for years to come, with the kind of financial certainty that would make Ross Atkins drool. Only one of them can play shortstop, but both have the range and arm to handle either second or third, so while there’s overlap between the two, it’s useful overlap.
To round out their return, Cleveland acquired two minor leaguers. Josh Wolf was the Mets’ second round pick in 2019, and he pitched in a handful of games that year after signing. I asked Eric Longenhagen about the prospect return, and he shared that Wolf has an atypical build and arm action for a starter, but that Cleveland has historically been good at altering deliveries to account for that. He sits 94-97 with a breaking ball that flashes plus, and Eric speculates that a new delivery might unlock better action and feel for a changeup that he sometimes throws. That said, he still projects as a reliever, though an impact one, and there’s certainly starter upside in there somewhere.
Isaiah Greene was a 2020 draftee, New York’s pick in the compensatory round. Again per Eric, the scouts who were highest on Greene see him as having good feel for contact with a frame that portends power in the future. He’s still raw in the field, with a scattershot arm, though he’s only 19 and didn’t play much in 2020 due to a pandemic-shortened senior season. Eric’s greatest concern is with his swing, a long, loopy contraption that will likely require a re-work. He appeared to start an overhaul in Fall instructs, our only look at him as a pro.
Cleveland has a penchant for drafting hitters from southern California, which raises the likelihood that their area scout there is behind the acquisition, as Greene has seen essentially no action since being drafted. Cleveland tends to pick up younger high schoolers — Greene is already 19 and a half — but it’s more a guideline than a rule, and there’s certainly a lot to dream on in his profile.
Perhaps most importantly for Cleveland, neither Wolf nor Greene needs a 40-man roster spot for several years. They have a logjam there, and by including two recent draftees in their return, they won’t be adding to the crunch with this trade. They’ll both profile in the 20-30 range on Cleveland’s prospect list as depth pieces with upside, though Eric likes Wolf (ranked 25th as a 40+ FV) more than Greene (28th as a 40 FV).
That’s the nuts and bolts of the trade. As for the bigger-picture implications, New York and Cleveland are both playing to type with this deal. Upon purchasing the team, Steve Cohen announced his desire to flex some financial muscle this offseason. Lindor fits that bill exactly — the reason Cleveland asked so little in return for him is that he’s a year away from signing a massive contract, and he’s slated to earn roughly $20 million in arbitration this year. As for Carrasco, his contract is hardly backbreaking, but hey, if he’s on offer, who would say no?
Cleveland started this offseason by waiving Brad Hand in a futile attempt to save $1 million. That followed their pre-season trade of Corey Kluber and in-season trade of Mike Clevinger. They shopped Lindor all season rather than sign him to an extension. At every turn, they’ve looked to economize, and this is merely more of the same.
While shedding Lindor will feel disappointing to fans expecting the team to compete for the AL Central crown in 2021, trading Carrasco is in some ways even harder to digest. He was the longest-tenured member of the team, and clearly a team leader. He’s on a team-friendly contract; he’d command far more than his current salary in free agency. With another 25 days of service time, he would have hit 10 years of major league service time, which would grant him 10/5 rights and the ability to veto any trade.
In theory, Carrasco would be just as tradable then. There’s a small chance, however, that he would have refused a trade and that Cleveland would be stuck with the salary. Again, that shouldn’t be a problem. Carrasco is a bargain at that rate. There’s just one sticking point: Cleveland frequently behaves as though they’re unwilling to accept any chance of being forced to pay a player’s salary.
After the 2018 season, they declined to extend Michael Brantley a qualifying offer. That offer would have granted them a draft pick if he signed elsewhere, and if he stayed, that was hardly a bad outcome — it would leave the team paying a market rate for badly needed outfield depth. They decided the risk of his accepting the contract was too high, saw him sign a $32 million deal elsewhere, and spent the next two years with the worst outfield in the game.
It’s not clear that Carrasco falls into the exact same camp — perhaps the Mets asked for him in trade, or perhaps he was necessary to get a prospect Cleveland was interested in. There are reasons to trade Carrasco that aren’t at all related to eliminating financial corner cases. It’s hard to give the team the benefit of the doubt, however, when they’ve so consistently acted to minimize any potential cash outlays.
At the beginning of this offseason, we already knew that the Mets would look to spend and Cleveland would look to scrimp. In this trade, both teams are what we thought they were. For New York, it’s a portent of how the team will behave under new management — we now project them for the third-highest WAR total in baseball, behind only the Dodgers and Padres. For Cleveland, it’s less portent than confirmation. We now estimate their 2021 payroll at $40 million, the lowest mark in the game, and shedding talent in exchange for payroll relief has been their aim for years now. Which of those two is preferable is in the eye of the beholder, though I know where I fall – on the side of winning baseball.
Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.
This was a pretty fair return for Lindor and Carrasco given the former’s contract situation and the latter’s health concerns; Gimenez looks like he’ll be a good shortstop, and Rosario has some upside. But I do feel that Cleveland is so intent on never taking a big step back that they’re never going to get another window of contention like the one that just passed. When you have two of the most valuable players in baseball and a pitching staff that almost always has one league ace on it for a 3+ year window, I’m not sure it’s ever realistic to expect you’ll get that again.
Jettisoning Lindor and Carrasco makes this a .500 team for the next couple of seasons if things break right for them, and this team won’t really start to pick up again until that wave of prospects arrives in 2023/2024 and some of them form the core of the next team. By then, Ramirez and Bieber (and Rosario and Reyes) will be about done with their contracts, so the window of having a Top 5 position player and Top 5 starting pitcher will be completely gone. Cleveland in 2020 is now the 2016 White Sox, watching the prime and cheap control of their stars tick down as they’re surrounded by guys from the JV squad.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that if I were a Cleveland fan, I would have really wanted them to get higher-end talent that was further away, because unless Rosario breaks out in a big way there’s no way these guys move the needle in the next couple of years.
This take seems reasonable until you consider Rosario’s pedestrian forecast and only FV40+ and FV40 ratings on Wolf & Greene. I’m not sure I’d trade Jeter Downs for those 3 and the BoSox got to dump Price’s contract in the process. Also, Betts’ 5-year Zips projection is only slightly better than Lindor’s if you look at Szym’s “Betts avoids FA” article in July. So any Betts premium over Lindor for 1 year is de minimus.
Finally, Cleveland’s farm system is far better than CWS in 2016, which only had Tim Anderson.
I’ll agree with the last part. Regarding the first part, I don’t think Lindor is as good as Betts, although he’s certainly the best recent comparison. That ZiPs forecast was shocking and I’m not sure I believe the 50th percentile projection.
Great job, Ben, to do all this work in only, what, 2-3 hours? Wow.
As far as the Mets side goes, I pretty strongly agree with Ben here. Let’s say it takes $30M over the next 10 years to keep Lindor. Is that worse than $30M over the next 5 years for Springer? The difference is that Springer 4 years older than Lindor. But also, Lindor is probably (although not guaranteed) going to be better in 2020. So I think I’m fine with that at the end of the day. Having Lindor at shortstop is particularly valuable for a team that, say, likes pitching Marcus Stroman every fifth game and believes JD Davis can play third base as well. And Carrasco solidifies the rotation, with the possibility he can be the #2 guy in a playoff rotation if he’s healthy and his stuff is clicking.
I do think that Springer might have overplayed his hand (although maybe he’s fine with whatever he’ll get). He knew he was the only top center fielder on the market, so he was asking for a deal totaling $150M. I sure hope he didn’t prefer the Mets and he’s fine with the Blue Jays, because the Mets are starting to come up on the luxury tax line and they’ve already made a big splash. They could still fit him in but now it’s the Blue Jays bidding against themselves, most likely.
Mets are about $32M shy of the CBT so they could still be in on Springer, and other than maybe a temporary 5th SP don’t have too many other holes right now.
It depends what Springer will cost, and whether they want the flexibility for in-season upgrades when injuries hit. For that reason, I’m going to guess they probably do not want to go above $200M right now. But that is literally just a guess.
Yeah I’d say Springer is less likely for the Mets now but they’re still probably #2 with a bullet in the Springer sweepstakes
Ooof, if Springer was being offered $140M from the Mets and the Blue Jays are at $115M, then he definitely misplayed his hand.
https://sny.tv/articles/what-s-next-for-the-mets-after-trading-for-francisco-lindor-and-carlos-carrasco-
It would be a lot easier for the Mets to fit Springer and maybe Kluber or Hand, if they were able to shed Familia’s salary somehow.
Realistically, I’d imagine the only way anyone is taking Familia on is with prospects attached, and after this deal, the Mets basically have 6 real prospects (who they probably want to hold onto), and a massive dropoff to organizational filler after that.
There does seem to be a gap (at this point) between their top 7 prospects and the Franklyn Kilome / Shervyen Newton types. I wouldn’t call either of those guys org filler but I think it’s 50/50 whether you could convince a team like the Giants to take one of them to shed Familia’s contract.
The Indians will keep churning out cheap talent, let the NY teams pay the high dollar contracts.
A few takeaways from this trade:
1) Cleveland seems to love quick middle infielders who make a lot of contact. Rosario and Giménez profile similarly to Lindor when he was a prospect, Ramírez before he broke out, Cesar Hernandez, Brayan Rocchio, and probably more that I can’t think of off the top of my head.
2) If Giménez can really play SS as well he did in 2020, then Cleveland isn’t downgrading their SS defense very much at all for 2021. A Giménez/Rosario platoon at SS would probably be very productive.
3) Luis Guillorme has a clearer path to MLB playing time now than he did before the trade. The Mets still probably would have made this deal even if they didn’t have Guillorme but simply playing Guillorme more often probably makes up for whatever value the team lost in giving up Rosario and Giménez. ZiPS has him as a 2.0 WAR/600 player in 2021 and he’s been a 1.7 WAR/600 player since making his MLB debut.
Lindor showed much better plate discipline in the minors than Rosario and better discipline than Gimenez, and it was that patience plus stocky build – he was already filled out in AA to close to his current 190 lbs (at 5/11″).
Scouts always liked Rosario’s power potential because of his frame, but I am skeptical he will develop that power so long as pitcher can get him to chase. Gimenez still needs to fill out. I think there current projections are fair and they make for a cheap, passable option with some real upside. I just don’t think their minor league records compare as closely to that of Lindors, but then again, I may value more than most that combination of good plate discipline plus strong contact skills – it’s why I loved players like Mookie Betts before his was on any top 100 prospect lists. Guys like that sometimes develop game power quickly.
I think your other observations are astute.
Roughly looking at the ZiPs Data, it looks like Cleveland did fine in the trade assuming a $5M/WAR for this year. Choosing not to spend the payroll difference will hurt them in the win column.
I think they will reinvest at least some of the money and overtake the Pirates in salary, and maybe even the Rays. I don’t think they’ll make an offer until February, though. They, along with a handful of other teams are going to be figuring out who is left over and desperate to get a guaranteed contract and start camp on time.
Looking at Rosario’s 2nd half, he had a wRC+ of 111 and improved plate discipline down the stretch. That, along with his step forward on defense, and the fact he’s still only 25, he could actually be quite good.
He improved offensively mostly because he was sitting vs righties and played against lefties and he’s done well vs lefties while being very bad vs righties.
Improved plate discipline is really a relative term when the initial bar was 1 BB going into September, followed by 3 BB’s in September/October. I say this as someone who wanted Rosario to put it together more than anyone, but he was going in the wrong direction.
He’s getting borderline unplayable against righties, his plate discipline is somehow going backwards since he reached the majors, he ‘s fast, yet useless on the basepaths…
I sincerely hope he pulls it together, because he is a very easy player to root for, and the talent is there. I hope he kills it in Cleveland, but I think it wasn’t going to happen in NY.
Your comment on swinging strike percentage got me to look at it a bit deeper. 3 of the top 4 pitchers by SwStr% were in the AL Central. 11 of the top 20 were in one of the centrals. If you go back to 2019 the numbers don’t resemble this at all. I am trying to figure out what the hell happened in the centrals last year. Would be an interesting article to read. Why did all the pitchers become so good and all the hitters so bad?
Could it be weather related? Later start to the season means pitchers aren’t dealing with cold springs in the central parks and are instead getting up to speed in warmer weather, which may reduce some of the early season advantage hitters might have over pitchers. That plus hitters getting less time to find their swing generally could have made an outsized impact last year.
Maybe something to do with only playing other central teams? Let’s say the pitchers were always this good, but in 2020 they only pitched against the weak offenses in the central divisions which gave them better results. From what I can see the extremely unbalanced schedules make it hard to compare stats between the east, central and west teams since there was zero overlap of opponents played.
Also sss and randomness.
Honestly, in a dimension where the Indians reinvest the savings in free agency (Springer), I actually like this trade for the Indians. Unfortunately, I am unable to enter said dimension.
Would like to purchase substances that allow *anyone* to enter this said dimension.
You do not want to sell us dimensional entry substances. You want to go home and rethink your life.
Hey, Angels: Lindor AND Carrasco were available?
The lack of a proper farm meant they never had a shot so why grumble?
Prospects are currency and if you have a sparse pipeline you can’t improve from inside or trade for proven talent. Double whammy.
I dont know, Marsh + Adams probably gets Cleveland interested, and Cleveland doesnt mind taking poo poo platters of far-away talent.
Yeah, that’s a bad take, the Angels farm > Mets, with OF in particular. Which I’m still chocked Cleveland didn’t target.
Are you sure they didn’t?
They got two young major leaguers right off the mets roster. What SS or OF on the Angels meet that test? Fletcher + Adell?
What is Ben trying to do in his evaluation of Lindor as an offensive player. He appears to try to show Lindor’s 38 HR’s in 2018 as some sort of outlier. It is anything but. He also popped 33 in 2017 and 32 in 2019. In those 3 seasons he slugged over.500 and had an OPS between .842 and .871. These are the numbers of an outstanding offensive player. Search as I might I can’t find another current SS with 3 consecutive 30+ HR seasons, in fact only Story has 2 and he averages 175 K’s a year. The hyped guys like Correa, Baez, Bogaerts, Seager aren’t even close. Tatis has a chance to surpass LIndor but, as of now, when top of the shelf defense and 20+ steals at a good percentage along with proven consistency are added in, he is my choice as the SS I would want to build a team around.
“That total package works out to a good but hardly overpowering hitter, one who would be above average at any position on the diamond without approaching the rarefied air of the Mike Trouts and Juan Sotos of the world. Combine it with the defense, and you get something special.”
I think Ben’s making the point that he’s got an all-around game and what makes him truly a star is great defense at SS. A 120 OPS+ will land you in the 45th-50th range of qualified hitters. Which could be considered outstanding for a shortstop, but just “good” overall. Also his BsR has been positive only two of his six years in the league, looks like his stealing ability is negated by subpar baserunning elsewhere. Put him in left field and he’d probably need to have a stronger bat to be considered a stud.
Career OPS+:
103 Báez
113 Bogaerts
117 Lindor
122 Torres
126 Correa
129 Seager
Last 3 years:
110 Correa
112 Báez
122 Lindor, Story, Seager, Torres
138 Bogaerts
Agreed, and SS is deep these days. You cannot just be like 30hrs boom now he is a star. Middle infielders aren’t as far off from corner position players as they used to be, and in the last two years Lindor has been the 13th best hitting shortstop in 2020, and the 6th in 2019. Those are both very good numbers..but I feel like sometimes his bat is considered as slightly better than it is. It is very good, he has a career 118 wRC+. He is projected for a 118 wRC+ next year, and while I would take the under due to a few negatives in his recent profile, that is what he is, an 18% better than average hitter with elite defense. Great player! But the bat isn’t the carrying tool.
Also look at those players’ physicality.
Playing regularly takes its toll and injuries degrade even the best players. Lindor’s running game took a big step back after his leg injuries.
Lindor doesnt *seem* like a home run hitter to me so I was suprised to be reminded that yes, he is actually a perennial 30hr threat
Mr Carson explained how he does it: lots and lots of good but not great contact.
Look at his average HR distance.
He isn’t a product of short fences and a rabbit ball but neither is he a 500 foot masher.
If I had to bet, I’d bet he’ll be closer to 20 than 30 HRs for the Mets.
No one is more surprised than me that Lindor has hit 30 HR’s in 3 consecutive seasons. I had heard all the hype when I watched him play several times for Akron at New Britain Stadium and would have bet that he would have struggled to get to 38 HR’s in his career, much less one season. He looked the part of simply another Latin American SS, in the mold of Chico Carrasquel, Louie Aparicio, Rey Ordonez, Omar Vizquel and quite a few others. Great glove, lots of singles, a few doubles and single digit dingers but the numbers speak for themselves.
Well done write up!
Finally, the hot stove is lit!
Enjoy it while it lasts.
It’ll be spurting off and on until camps open. If.
I truly hate what the state of baseball has become. A handful of teams actively try, while most are now adopting a cost-cutting approach to which they can’t even field a team with a payroll above $40 million.
I don’t think “most” teams will have a payroll below $40 million in 2021…
Feel free to fixate on everything other than the point of my comment.
But, I’ll expand upon my point because it evidently was not clear. Will the Red Sox and Cubs have $40 million payrolls? No. But does it suck that big market teams are trading Mookie Betts and Yu Darvish in a move to become willingly less competitive for dollars and cents? Yes.
Cleveland can afford Lindor. He’s a 27-year old face of the franchise. Cleveland isn’t New York – but they could’ve done it. Instead, let’s just send him on his merry way in order to save $20 mil and gather raw prospects in hopes they acquire someone who becomes 30% as electric as Lindor.
To be fair, we’re dealing with unique circumstances this offseason. Several of the various cost cutting moves that have been made wouldn’t have happened in a normal offseason.
Basically, the MLBPA threw the current free agent class (including those who have been non-tendered and had options declined) under the bus just so they wouldn’t have to take further than pro-rated pay cuts last season. Those still under contract are benefiting at the expense of the other players, and anyone could easily see that coming. That’s terrible behavior for any kind of worker’s union to purposely benefit part of the employee class at the direct expense of the rest of the employees!
You’re saying most teams won’t have a payroll above 40 million?
Reading comprehension is your friend.
Teams won’t all field $40 million payroll teams. But please, by all means, explain to me why Boston moving Mookie Betts, Chicago moving Yu Darvish, or Cleveland moving Lindor/Carrasco is good for baseball in any way that benefits you, a fan. How do you, a fan, enjoy the game more knowing teams are actively trying to be worse to save money that you don’t see come back to you?
“while MOST are now adopting a cost-cutting approach to which they can’t even field a team with a payroll above $40 million…”
Your exact words. Are you sure it’s me that’s struggling with reading comprehension?
So how is Cleveland holding on to Jose Ramirez? He has to be due for a big payday soon, doesn’t he?
9m this year, 12m in ’22 and 14m in ’23. ’22 and ’23 are club options
Interesting, overall, but SS was not on the Mets list of essential needs. By sending about 2.5 WAR to Cleveland, the Mets are adding a net of 6 WAR for 2021 at a cost of around $28m (figuring 3m for the salaries they sent away), while if they had signed, say, Bauer and Springer for a $55m AAV and kept Giminez and Rosario, they’d be getting 11 WAR for $58m.
I’d rather have the latter, particularly with the Mets already aging rotation, and that Bauer is more likely than Carrasco to be healthy by the time the postseason rolls around (in each of 2021, 2022, and 2023). Also, by adding Springer instead of Lindor you improve defense at both CF and LF, don’t sacrifice depth or force Davis into the role of primary 3Bman, and don’t end up with Smith as the Mets primary LFer, at least for now.
The Mets still need another SP. With Cohen saying he wants to stay under the LT threshold Odorizzi’s about their limit, given they need to add at least a backup CFer who can really play, another bullpen arm in at least the Justin Wilson range, and ideally another versatile IFer. With the Carrasco-Lindor deal in the works the Mets would have done well to sign Ha-Seong Kim.
I’m not as high on Lindor as most, but despite the above, as a Mets fan there’s a lot to like about this deal. It’s a strong push towards the 2021 postseason, while also setting the team up to have a powerful rotation once they get there–assuming they handle Syndergaard with that end in mind.
I see the point your making, but you’re ignoring their ability to still likely add one of Springer or Bauer – in your scenario they still have $27 mil to play with.
You’re a Mets fan and you’re nitpicking this trade?? I wish my team had just traded for the best shortstop in the game
This is a great baseball trade for the Mets but was done with much moor than statistical production in mind. Sandy Anderson talked yesterday about changing the reality of the Mets rather than just changing the perception, and they’ve clearly done that.
Financially, investing in Lindor (if he signs an extension) is as Ben notes, a much better investment than Springer or anyone else on the market.
Lineup wise, Lindor as a switch hitter gives the Mets a ton more options in a lefty-heavy lineup.
Defensively, the Mets can roll Dom Smith / Jeff McNeil (2b) / Francisco Lindor / Luis Guillorme in the late innings which could be the best defensive infield in baseball and will only make that pitching staff better. And upgrading the SS bat to Lindor means you can play Guillorme more… because Guillorme and Rosario/Gimenez profiled a little too similar in the lineup (Guillorme’a hot 2020 notwithstanding).
Getting Carrasco is the Cookie of the deal – a true desert. I would have traded any two of these guys for Carrasco on his contract because of how dependable he’s been and how bargain the salary is. I would have traded any three of these guys to get Lindor if I think I can sign him long term. To get both…. wow.
Finally, as mentioned elsewhere, I think Isaiah Greene will have the best career of the bats the Mets gave up. Prospects are fickle, but even as trade currency I suspect Greene will have significantly more value in a year or two as he develops. This is a true CF with elite speed on a 6 foot frame that could add power to go with it, batting from the left side of the plate.
Interesting take. Would you rather have Lindor for $300 million or Springer for $150 million? The Mets traded away from SS, which wasn’t a huge weakness for them; they still have a huge logjam in the infield (where does Dom Smith, their best hitter last year, play?). The Mets have already started to change the reality with the additions they made, and would have even changed more reality with a Springer signing, which would massively help their outfield defense, which is a big need for them.
I like the addition of Carrasco as well – the Mets clearly need pitching.
To be honest, as a pure baseball move, I would’ve traded one of Gimenez/Rosario and sundry for Carrasco and wait for next year’s Crop (Correa, Baez, etc).
But new owners like to make an instant splash to energize the fanbase.
If it’s a binary choice, I’m taking 27-year old Lindor at $300 over 31-year old Springer, who will become a corner OF during the contract length, at $150.
You’re 100% correct that the Mets have greater needs than a shortstop upgrade, though I would submit that Rosario was pretty much toast in New York and Gimenez would have gotten 2/3 of the innings and PA’s this season if they stayed. That made Rosario as much of a surplus part as other logjams, and far less valuable than Smith, Alonso, or even Nimmo or Davis.
I hope JD Davis has spent every waking minute of the offseason working on his reaction time and defense at the hot corner. He has the arm to play 3B, without question. Where he struggled was not just range, but reaction time. However, Todd Zeile – whom I trust in terms of baseball opinions – is on record as saying that Davis is an incredibly hard worker who is getting better and can play at a high enough level as he continues to work at the position.
To your Dom Smith question, there’s no doubt that he *should* play 1B and Pete Alonso should hope there is a DH. Dom is a better hitter than Alonso – watching him swing last year was beautiful, and there’s literally 50 doubles a year in that bat even if there’s not 20 homers (and, yes, I know how rare 50 doubles is). Alonso also carries over bad at bats and loses his swing far too often for my comfort. Also, there’s no question as to who is the better defender. If I had to trade one, I’d trade Alonso. And that may sound insane unless you watch far too many Mets games like I do.
I think what I’m trying to say is this: Is the difference between Lindor and Gimenez larger (and worth paying an extra $150M) than the difference between Springer and whoever the Mets will trot out as their third outfielder?
Agreed on Dom Smith (although I would say more like 30HR/year in that bat), but it’s going to take an awfully progressive organization to play him the majority of the time at 1B if there is no DH in the NL. Sitting a 50 HR ROY on the bench is going to ruffle a lot of feathers. I would also trade Alonso.
The marketing potential is higher for Lindor in NYC so he is easier to justify at $30M per, *if* he signs.
The question is how much more than $30M that’ll take.
I think there’s a very strong argument that he deserves the exact same deal as Manny Machado. A likely 5-win guy based on excellent defense and above average offensive production at roughly the same age, with the big difference here that Machado hits better but Lindor plays a harder position.
The Betts deal was a bit weird because he was better, a tad older, there was significant deferred money, and part of the allure for Betts was getting a guaranteed payday in case of a messed up season.
I was thinking of Machado as a comp this morning. I doubt the Mets can get Lindor with what the Padres gave Machado, though (even with the age-31 season opt-out); I’m thinking Lindor’s team will pushing for a Betts-type deal from the Mets, and won’t take less than Gerrit Cole money for an extension.
There is a huge difference in character. Lindor is always seen with a big smile, he IS Mr. Smile where as Machado is known, all too well, as a dirty player with his intentional tripping of Jesus Aquilar and spiking of Dustin Pedroia out there for all to see.
“ZiPS thinks Lindor will continue to put up MVP-caliber seasons for years to come…”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t “MVP caliber” well over 6+ WAR per season? According to Fangraphs:
https://library.fangraphs.com/misc/war/
Good player: 3-4 WAR
All Star: 4-5 WAR
Superstar: 5-6 WAR
MVP: 6+ WAR
Lindor is projected by ZIPs to top out at 5.8 WAR next year, and then trend down steadily after. The lowest WAR I could find for an MVP winner over the last ten years was 7.1.
It’s because ZiPS doesn’t predict anyone to actually get 8 WAR per year, because of injury possibilities, regression, etc.
Even Trout is only projected for 6.7 WAR next year.
Then the system is saying he is just as likely to have less than 5.8 WAR, no?
Also, shouldn’t we then change the ZIPS labels for types of player to delineate between projections and after-the-fact WAR?
Maybe I missed it in the comments, but holy hell. The CBT (if we can call the football team the WFT, we can call this team the CBT) will have a payroll of $36.5M this year. . . .and is expected to be at least reasonably competitive. They have 6 guys making more than the minimum, only 2 guys making more than $2M and nobody making $10M.
BTW, this site needs to acknowledge the lawsuit going in CA with the Angels’ fired clubhouse attendant coming out and acknowledging that he has provided spin inducing substances to pitchers for decades now, including most notably Gerrit Cole for whom he has solid evidence. This needs its own article.
But they are still the Indians this year. That is their company name. “Football Team” is a joke by Dan Snyder to stick it to those who made him change it.
Local media has quoted Antonetti as saying they will be reinvesting some of tbe savings so the once and future Spiders won’t open the season at $40M.
$50M is more likely. 😀
LOL
Thanks for mentioning the disaster that was letting Brantley walk without even a QO. He was not only a good hitter but a long tenured, team guy like Carrasco and the owner’s biggest fear was that they would retain him for one year at market rate. That showed us exactly who Dolan is…
Cleveland needs to sell the team. Maybe this trade is OK for them, maybe not but the constant unloading talent to pinch pennies should be embarrassing for baseball. This is a team in desperate need of OFer and wouldn’t risk offering Brantley a QO in case he signed a reasonable 1 year deal. A team that released Brad Hand, one of the better relievers in baseball because he was going to be paid $10M. This is a playoff-caliber team that has now traded Clevinger, Bauer, Carrasco, Lindor, and Kluber in the last 2+ years in order to save money. This is a team clearly indifferent to winning. If you can’t afford to compete or are not interested in spending enough to win, don’t own a team.
Dolan hasn’t been able to find even one investor to pickup Sherman’s share stuck in escrow.
He may be forced to sell but if he is it likely will mean the team moves.
(As for the previously traded guys, how did those trades work out for the other side? They gave up names, yes, but considering the cost attached to those names they haven’t exactly missed them.)
The Indians may have the best wins /dollar of any team since Francona took over. Their wizardry with untouted pitchers is exemplary and they also seem to have a feel for when a pitcher’s arm is about to fall off. Beware anyone who signs Brad Hand.
On the other hand, what if they had even half the NY resources.
They might still be making most of the same trades but they might be keeping a few more guys a bit longer (*cough*Brantley*cough). And not be fielding an OF of maybe’s and if-only’s.
They have a talented baseball crew behind the roster but there’s only so far you can get with just talent; at some point you need money to work with.
“It’s easy to like New York’s side of the deal. Lindor is one of the 10 or so best position players in baseball, and at 27, he’s just entering his prime.”
—It’s startling to read this from a thoughtful columnist like Ben Clemens. 27 IS a baseball player’s prime, on average, with 26 and 28 for stars being so comparable that you could reasonably call 26-28 the prime years, on average. A 27 year old is in the middle of his expected prime, perhaps, but it’s hardly the case, as Ben makes it sound, that 27 is the age at which a player climbs to his prime and where he stays for the next several years.
It would be interesting to hear Ben answer the questions, What do you think a player’s prime years are? and What do you think a players peak age(s) are?