Mike Matheny Fired by the Cardinals
“And just like that, as mysteriously as he arrived, he was gone.”
– Oscar Martinez, The Office
It wasn’t quite Nixon’s Saturday Night Massacre, but after the Cardinals lost to the Cardinals 8-2 Saturday night, dropping to just a skosh above .500 at 47-46, manager Mike Matheny was dismissed from his managerial duties. The Cardinals remain in the playoff race, but it’s been a tumultuous month behind the scenes in St. Louis, from normal run-of-the-mill struggles to public friction with right fielder Dexter Fowler to the latest report — written by the tireless Mark Saxon of The Athletic — of Bud Norris’s old-school clubhouse antics with rookie reliever Jordan Hicks.
While Matheny’s role in the Norris-Hicks situation probably wasn’t the main factor behind his dismissal, I have few doubts that it was a contributing factor. Saxon received a lot of pushback publicly about his reporting on the issues, but these types of wagon-circling denials from teams when a story becomes embarrassing isn’t just common, it’s practically de rigueur. That doesn’t necessarily negate the veracity of the original reports.
In the end, though, it usually comes down to winning. Like most managers, Matheny lived by the win before he died by the win, the extremely successful Cardinal seasons at the start of Matheny’s tenure making him as unassailable at the time as he was vulnerable by 2018.
In a piece for ESPN in 2013, Anna McDonald reported on the relationship between the analytics-friendly front office headed by then-general manager John Mozeliak (who’s since been promoted to team president) and the more traditional Matheny.
“I believe how [Matheny] puts a lineup together is that he is utilizing things we give him from upstairs, but we don’t want to bury him with having to overthink things. Most importantly, we hire a manager to make that lineup. I do think one thing that Mike and his staff have done a very good job of is embracing anything we can put together as far as advanced scouting for them. Trying to eliminate small sample sizes and make them accept larger ones for probabilities has been helpful. Mike, he is a young manager that is very interested at looking at the best ways to be successful, so that’s always a good sign when you have that in an employee.”
Few analytics types, myself included, really thought much of Matheny as an in-game tactician. But that’s only part of the job of a manager. I’ve talked a lot about admiring Joe Torre as a manager for the Yankees not because of his in-game acumen but simply because, unlike a lot of managers, he didn’t stand in the way of his team’s success. Sometimes, keeping the team from killing each other is what a manager is there for, which is why I praised Dusty Baker’s hiring by the Washington Nationals as the right move at the right time for that particular club.
St. Louis has long been known for its relative lack of drama, an organization that, under Mozeliak, tends to be run quietly and carefully, knowing that, despite the team’s ability to punch above its market size financially, there’s also less margin for error than the Yankees and Dodgers possess. With the team struggling, there’s been a lot of very unusual off-field drama. While the biting between Dexter Fowler and the team got the most notice, of greater concern perhaps regarding Matheny’s reputation as a Leader of Men™ was Rick Hummel’s June report on the communication issues between some of the team’s pitchers and their manager.
Reyes also didn’t tell Matheny he was in any pain at the time he was visited at the mound in Milwaukee, although most of the actual pain might have come later in the day.
This brings us to staff ace Carlos Martinez, who said he was hesitant to throw too hard in the early innings Tuesday in his first Cardinals start in nearly a month after he suffered a less severe torn lat. Martinez reiterated Wednesday he was “scared” to throw too hard until he aired it out in his final inning, the fourth.
I felt that Matheny would probably survive the 2018 season, but he didn’t quite make the All-Star Break and will be replaced for the time being at least by bench coach Mike Shildt. Both hitting coach John Mabry and assistant hitting coach Bill Mueller were also relieved of their duties, unsurprising given the team’s overall offensive performance in 2018 and the long-term failure to match the level the 2011-13 versions of the club.
| Year | wRC+ | MLB Rank |
|---|---|---|
| 2011 | 112 | 3 |
| 2012 | 106 | 3 |
| 2013 | 104 | 6 |
| 2014 | 95 | 16 |
| 2015 | 97 | 15 |
| 2016 | 105 | 7 |
| 2017 | 100 | 10 |
| 2018 | 94 | 14 |
One thing that’s difficult to assess is Mike Matheny’s management of the bullpen. To my eye, it has usually looked problematic, and I once said that if I were trying to demonstrate to someone what Mike Matheny’s bullpen usage is like, “I’d drop 500 spiders into a kindergarten class.” Attempting to gauge a manager’s effect on pitcher ERA is an incredible challenge, but one quick-and-dirty way to look at usage is to see how bullpen run prevention lines up to win probability added. WPA is a very noisy stat in the short run, but I was curious to see what it would say about Mike Matheny’s bullpen management, so I’m looking at bullpen ERA- over 2012 to -18 and seeing how the ranks differ from the WPA.
| Team | ERA- Rank | WPA Rank | Diff |
|---|---|---|---|
| Padres | 21 | 8 | 13 |
| Reds | 24 | 19 | 5 |
| Phillies | 28 | 24 | 4 |
| Dodgers | 13 | 10 | 3 |
| Tigers | 29 | 26 | 3 |
| Pirates | 6 | 4 | 2 |
| Rangers | 9 | 7 | 2 |
| Braves | 13 | 11 | 2 |
| Yankees | 3 | 2 | 1 |
| Mets | 29 | 28 | 1 |
| Orioles | 1 | 1 | 0 |
| Red Sox | 4 | 5 | -1 |
| Indians | 5 | 6 | -1 |
| Rays | 11 | 12 | -1 |
| Cardinals | 13 | 14 | -1 |
| Mariners | 19 | 20 | -1 |
| Twins | 20 | 21 | -1 |
| Marlins | 24 | 25 | -1 |
| Royals | 1 | 3 | -2 |
| Nationals | 7 | 9 | -2 |
| Blue Jays | 13 | 15 | -2 |
| Angels | 21 | 23 | -2 |
| Astros | 27 | 29 | -2 |
| Diamondbacks | 9 | 13 | -4 |
| Giants | 13 | 17 | -4 |
| Rockies | 26 | 30 | -4 |
| Cubs | 13 | 18 | -5 |
| White Sox | 21 | 27 | -6 |
| Brewers | 8 | 16 | -8 |
| Athletics | 12 | 22 | -10 |
At least by this rough measure, Matheny comes out better than I expected over this period, basically average. That said, it’s worth noting that Cardinal relievers have been 17th in ERA- but 28th by WPA since the beginning of 2017, so perhaps there’s an argument to be made that Matheny’s managed down to expectations.
[It also struck me, though it didn’t at 2 AM, that the FIP- vs. WPA chart would also be useful, as I should not assume that inherited runners and the like evens out over the years. Matheny looks a bit worse here, though deeper study of this issue is warranted -DS]
| Team | FIP- Rank | WPA Rank | Diff |
|---|---|---|---|
| Padres | 24 | 8 | 16 |
| Pirates | 15 | 4 | 11 |
| Reds | 30 | 19 | 11 |
| Diamondbacks | 20 | 13 | 7 |
| Giants | 24 | 17 | 7 |
| Cubs | 24 | 18 | 6 |
| Twins | 27 | 21 | 6 |
| Orioles | 3 | 1 | 2 |
| Red Sox | 7 | 5 | 2 |
| Rangers | 9 | 7 | 2 |
| Tigers | 28 | 26 | 2 |
| Royals | 4 | 3 | 1 |
| Mets | 29 | 28 | 1 |
| Blue Jays | 15 | 15 | 0 |
| Yankees | 1 | 2 | -1 |
| Braves | 9 | 11 | -2 |
| Rays | 9 | 12 | -3 |
| Angels | 20 | 23 | -3 |
| Indians | 2 | 6 | -4 |
| Phillies | 20 | 24 | -4 |
| Nationals | 4 | 9 | -5 |
| Cardinals | 9 | 14 | -5 |
| Dodgers | 4 | 10 | -6 |
| Athletics | 15 | 22 | -7 |
| White Sox | 20 | 27 | -7 |
| Brewers | 7 | 16 | -9 |
| Marlins | 15 | 25 | -10 |
| Mariners | 9 | 20 | -11 |
| Rockies | 15 | 30 | -15 |
| Astros | 9 | 29 | -20 |
One thing about the firing is that Mozeliak’s place in the organization is different than it was when Matheny is hired. Whatever your opinion on Tony La Russa, Mozeliak in 2011 was a 42-year-old general manager, still relatively early in his tenure. Replacing a manager bound the Hall of Fame is a difficult task, and the team was already taking a chance in hiring a manager with no professional coaching or managing experience. With the ample benefit of hindsight, it’s easy to say Mozeliak made the wrong choice — it’s hard to say that Terry Francona, a finalist for the position at the time, wouldn’t have been the better choice — but I don’t think it was necessarily a good place to go all Statty Q. Nerdington. The Cardinals’ next manager, if it’s not Schildt, will likely be more analytically inclined. Joe Girardi is already being cited in several Hot Takes as the favorite to replace Matheny, but sitting here, just hours after Matheny’s dismissal, I’m skeptical.
I’m not a believer in the idea that firing managers gives a real short-term bump in team performance. While there’s data that shows this, it also doesn’t take into account the effect of mean reversion. A manager is more likely to be fired while his team is underperforming rather than overperforming, after all, so simply attributing improvement to managerial replacement is a bit like suggesting that a patient who’s just left the hospital is healthier because of all the Jell-O and ice chips he consumed. But given the tense situation in St. Louis and the team’s performance, it was time for a parting of the ways.
As of press time, I have no idea if Matheny plans to start Michael Matheny Manager Company. (See, that’s a callback to the start of this article!)
Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.
Hey Dan, you regularly post my weird Orioles questions and poetic verse in your chats. Just wanted to say, I really appreciate how your writing both manages to weave a wide array of interesting linguistic structure, pop culture references, and phrases like “wagon-circling denials” in a highly cerebral manner while also avoiding the common trap (for such weavers) of sounding off-putting or overly verbose. It’s a quality that I highly admire and appreciate in writers who do so successfully. I look forward to reading more of your work!
It’s my shtick and it’s served me well. I won’t claim I never cross the line into being overcute or just downright pretentious.
Are you aware of Dan’s Twitter?
It’s cruel to subject people to that.
Unless you really like to watch wrestling clips.
Stubby Clapp is lauded at their AAA. If the Cardinals go in-house, he’d probably be a good choice being considered a “winner” type and a guy good with the kids. Not sure how he is analytically.
He had an 80 name as a player and it’s even a better manager name.
And as a bonus, the St Louis Post-Dispatch headline can be “Cardinals Get the Clapp!”
P.S. love your writing style, Dan.
Slow Clapp for the Cards new hire!
First hire ?
Rusty Kuntz, of course
Avoid the clapp!
Jimmy Dugan.
He would need Stump Merrill to be his bench coach…
Excellent article, I’m glad that we’ll get to see more of your work here.
Minor minor quibble, I’ve been too busy at work to watch, but because of a typo I have no idea who the Cards lost to last night. Need to flog Carson
“…after the Cardinals lost to the Cardinals 8-2 Saturday night…”
Oh, I’ll make typos, but this one was absolutely intended!
My first thought reading that line — which I also thought to be a typo — was “well, if any game outcome would lead to firing a manager, that would be it” so it worked as intended.
They always say “we beat ourselves tonight … “
100% my fault, I should have known.
Now that the Matheny era is finally over, deliberations on the most flagrant examples of Mathenaging can begin.
A lot of contenders, but I have to go with bringing in Michael Wacha in the 9th inning of an elimination game of the 2014 NLCS against the Giants, despite the fact that Wacha hadn’t pitched in ~over a month~, despite the fact that a then-dominant Trevor Rosenthal was available. Matheny’s explanation after the game:
“I put him in a tough spot. But you [saw] the first couple pitches come out of [his] hand and I think everybody in the baseball world asked why we had been waiting so long to let this kid throw. Just a tough spot for him to be in and not the spot we want him to be in but we’ll put him out there again in a similar situation.”
And the most immortal Matheny line, when asked why he didn’t bring Rosenthal in: “”We can’t bring him in, in a tie-game situation. We’re on the road.”
Goodbye, Mike Matheny.
“And the most immortal Matheny line, when asked why he didn’t bring Rosenthal in: ‘We can’t bring him in, in a tie-game situation. We’re on the road.‘“
This is known as the height of idiocy. Matheny should have been fired on the spot for doing that. How is that my girlfriend fully understands the concept of leverage in baseball but Matheny somehow does not?
Ausmus had said similar howlers. It’s definitely one of my peeves.
Matt Adams in left field when Jose Martinez (a natural outfielder) couldn’t get in the game. That was fun.
Adams in the outfield was an ongoing train wreck, but calling Jose Martinez a natural anything in the field is a stretch.
He is naturally the worst first basemen I have ever seen.
They had a logjam of serviceable 1B that they were trying to find playing time for. The responsibility falls on the front office for that one.
By which I mean the Colorado Rockies front office, of course.
W.I.Y.:
Glad you brought up the “Wacha game” as it is the signature example of persistent anti-Matheny revisionism.
Check the numbers. Trevor Rosenthal was not “then-dominant” by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, in the 2014 playoffs Rosie had been quite ineffective, allowing 10 of 21 batters to reach base safely. Moreover, in his one appearance versus the Giants two days earlier, he’d allowed 4 runners while retiring just 2 batters.
Wacha was a gamble that backfired, of course. But keep two things in mind. (1)In the full objective context of the moment, there actually were no obvious better alternatives, and (2)when Wacha entered the game, St. Louis had a roughly 35-40% chance of winning that game, and thus 8-10% chance of winning the series. So it’s silly to argue that Matheny’s choice of Wacha had anything more than a very minor impact on that series as a whole.
All managers screw up, even in October. There are too many opportunities not to. But Matheny’s “Wacha blunder” pales in comparison to Joe Maddon leaving Aroldis Chapman in with a 7-run lead in Game 6, or Buck Showalter’s refusal to use Zach Britton at all in the extra inning play-in game loss a couple years back.
Just a little thing, but you have two 23s on the bull pen ERA- rank and no number 1.
How the heck! I’ll find that one.
Also 2 2s
I redid the chart.
I left ties as is. One of the things that struck me is that I don’t actually know if FanGraphs is sorting by unseen decimals in calculated stats. The issue hadn’t come up before that I had to ask, which I’m about to do.
All the recent headlines aside, as a Cards fan, the most damning thing going about T-Ball Mike was the fact was after 7 seasons as a MLB manager he was no better than when he started. I won’t go as far as worse, but I think that case can be made. He managed the same now as he did then. Poorly. That lack of growth as a manager was his ultimate downfall. I’d argue it’s staggering to me he got a pass the way he did after the “performance” in the playoffs with the Wacha/Rosenthal thing. If that was any other market — not even just bigger ones — he probably gets run off sooner.
I’ve argued recently that if the Cardinals simply had the 25th best manager in baseball — whomever that archetype maybe — we’d make the playoffs. That’s debatable id guess, but what’s not is that every night the team was run out there for a game, T-Ball never gave the Cardinals the edge at Manager for the game. Ever. Why as an organization would you do that? It didn’t make sense, and it seems like it was merely penny pinching. Anyone remember whom else they interviewed at that point? Terry Francona. Light years apart between those two. I don’t think Tito would have taken the job — he was going to take is TV hiatus — but it’s damning that the difference between those to and what could have been.
Hard to see much changing in the 2nd half. Maybe a little better. This has been an 88-83 win team from the jump. My guess is it still ends up that way. Not having a moron for a manager however is progress.
Tito did interview for the job! And he’s definitely someone who *has* grown as a manager during his stint. Clint Hurdle is another one. Hinch and Maddon have good records but they’re always talking about learning new things. You kinda get the impression that the last new thing Matheny learned was a compact disc.
I’m trying to think who the 25th best manager is. Buck Showalter?
“I’m trying to think who the 25th best manager is. Buck Showalter?”
Good guess!
Okay, Matheny was a lousy manager the day he was hired, and he was still lousy the day he was fired. But he DID learn a few things. His first year he ROUTINELY called for a bunt every time his leadoff hitter got to 2nd base. He never did that at the end. He also never used to bring in his closer in a tie game on the road; at the end he always did. He also never used to bring in his closer in the 8th; at the end he frequently did (a couple times a month anyway). Still a bozo, but I think you’re forgetting just how putrid he was back in 2012-13.
For any office fans that might be unaware, Matheny’s middle name is Scott, so he is actually a Michael Scott. Unfortunately, the Dunder-Mifflin branch manager is a great analog for Matheny’s managerial abilities.
IIRC the Scranton Branch, managed by Mr. Michael Scott, was always the sales leader of all the Dunder-Mifflin branches.
So Bob Melvin is the worst bullpen manager in recent history? Huh.
Just a small thing, but the beginning of this article says, “after the Cardinals lost to the Cardinals”
Great article!
I don’t think it had anything to do with internet drama. Back in May 16th, Mo was quoted as saying, “As you enter this phase of the season and there are certain areas or concerns, at what point do you put it on the coaching staff or put it on the players?” On June 25th, “If you look at really this past week and how many strikeouts we’ve had, really it has been mind-boggling.” “Where does it start, obviously with the players, but at some level you have to put some responsibility on the coaching staff and specifically the hitting coach. But I always hate to say that’s the problem.”
Depth charts has the Cardinals having the 4th best record in the National League for the remainder of the season, which I think is what most projections systems had them at the beginning of the season? But they’ve the 9th best record in the NL so far. There may be a lot of reasons why the total is less than the sum of the parts, Matheny and his hitting coach might or might not be a significant one.
Thanks for the article. Do you think this was a move made at least partly because people were starting to look further up the managerial ladder to where the problems might lie? Matheny didn’t hire himself, or make some of the more puzzling trades, for example.
I don’t think so. In the later few years, Mo and Matheny were reportedly at odds, and Matheny was only kept around because the owners liked him. I imagine these past few months were enough to get rid of him.
And can you clarify “more puzzling trades”? I’m not aware of any of them, most make pretty clear sense to me.
Might have had something to do with going 11-18 prior 29 games. Losing 5 games in the standings in the process….
Dan seems to start with his conclusion that Matheny is a terrible manager then support it with anecdotes like the Saxon non-story. He then concocts a weak analysis which doesn’t support his thesis but barrels forward with the Matheny is terrible narrative.
It may be time for a managerial change, but I would personally give Matheny the rest of the year.
The poor performance from players like Fowler has much more to do with any underperformance of the team. And the current team roster put together by the front office is not in the top tier of baseball.
Matheny has put together an admirable record with the Cardinals and best of luck to him in the future.
I always love these takes. When the team wins Matheny gets the credit, but when they lose it’s the players’ fault.
Because everyone knows the sign of great leadership is throwing your charges under every oncoming bus you see.
Actually it sounds from this forum that Matheny gets the blame for every loss, but zero credit when they win. I do not believe that managers play the most critical role in wins and losses, and the credit should generally go to players. However, it is hard to call Matheny the worst manager in baseball when he had more wins than any manager in baseball during his tenure. And he did not consistently have the most talented team in baseball. Matheny certainly made numerous questionable moves, but in total it is hard to characterize him as the worst manager in baseball.
I wonder what the Padres are doing to come out so well in bullpen WPA compared to their ERA and FIP…
I don’t follow them that closely but I do own Hand in a dynasty league and it seems like they’re very willing to use him in tie games and for multiple innings…much more so than other teams.
decent managing. might have contributed to their -12 pythagorean last year
Losing games early ?
Seems to me that the recent “controversy” was leaked to provide a pretense of “losing the clubhouse” that mgmt typically floats before a canning.
My guess is that a Norris/Hicks situation occurs 25 times a month in the MLB and you don’t hear about it and nobody gets fired.
Can’t blame them for firing him though. They have a LaRussa level bar and he didn’t clear it.
Below is a great article on Matheny taking responsibility for his firing and the team struggles. A classy interview of a man with integrity:
https://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/cardinal-beat/updated-matheny-takes-high-road-accepts-blame-for-cardinals-disappointing/article_69abff1b-7266-5e84-8497-7e127f233566.html
If only he’d treated his job with the same level of integrity. He never learned, claimed to be new-school but was just another boring old-fashioned guy who wasn’t smart enough to manage well.
At some point,bullpen management needs to be placed on Matheny. Mike never really wanted to consider what reliver would be best in a situation, only who was available, nor did handedness play any role in his decisions. Routenly he would leave Tyler Lyons in against right handed batter only to see him get shelled. He always wanted an ” automatic ” bullpen,ie,he never was interested in thinking about pitching. And let’s not discuss Jedd Gyorko at short,or Luke Voit at first, He always looked over matched .
Mike was poor at putting the team in a position to win,and in the end ,that cost him his job.
thought it was interesting Fowler hitting the HR yesterday early in the game and the bench going absolutely crazy about it.
and would say just as interesting in a save situation it was Hicks going out there instead of Norris.
You guys are missing the chance to do one of those “Job Postings” things for Cardinals manager, hitting coach, and assistant hitting coach
Matheny reminds me of George Siefert.
Both took over championship clubs,built by there HOF predecessors.
Each franchise slowly declined.
Francona was much more expensive.
So Cards choose MM.
Indian fans are still thanking Mo.
St. Louis Post-Dispatch writer (and President of the BBWAA) Derrick Goold has written about the Terry topic numerous times over the past few years. He has repeatedly reported that yes, indeed, Francona interviewed with St. Louis, but that he was in fact not interested much in ANY managerial position right then, including St. Louis, having just been fired himself. (I think Francona explicitly said as much in his autobiography.)
Francona wisely took a year off, and was re-energized enough to take the Indians’ position for the 2013 season.
As a St. Louis fan, I only pray that the next manager wins 55-56% of his regular season games, exceeding the team’s Vegas over/under by an average of 4 wins per year, and wins 49% of his playoff contests, including a majority of playoff series, despite being the betting underdog in more than 75% of those series.
Francona, by the way, has won 12 playoff games in 5 years with Cleveland. Matheny won 21 in 6 years with St. Louis.
Great information on the Matheny era!
Matheny surely made numerous questionable decisions, but so do all managers. The bottom line is his teams won 6 years in a row, and he handled his position with professionalism and class. It appears to be time for a change in St Louis, but the extreme negativity of this blog towards Matheny is unjustified.
I read Tommy Pham is spending his all star break revamping his swing with Ricardo Sosa of the swing team that revamped JD Martinez and Jose Martinez’s swings. Has anyone done a before and after comparison of players who have had their swings revamped by Robert Van Scoyoc, Ricardo Sosa and their launch angle revolution?