MLB Should Throw the Book at Yordano Ventura
Last night, Yordano Ventura once again lived down to his reputation. The video at MLB.com shows not just the 99 mph fastball that drilled Manny Machado in the back in the 5th inning, but the 2nd inning pitches that led Ventura to decide to throw at the Orioles best player. If you haven’t seen the context that precipitated the brawl, this is worth watching.
As referenced by the announcers, this is nothing new for Ventura. Last April, he was unhappy with Mike Trout, and caused the benches to clear by mouthing off after pitching poorly. He was then ejected from his next start for hitting Brett Lawrie with a fastball, and in the start after that, he got the benches to clear by yelling at Adam Eaton after a groundball back to the mound.
As Jeff Passan — who lives in Kansas City and knows more about the Royals than most national writers — noted this morning, Ventura’s act has worn thin, not just with everyone else in baseball, but his own organization as well.
Recently, inside the Kansas City Royals’ clubhouse, Yordano Ventura was talking about how he planned on hitting Jose Bautista with a pitch the next time he faced him. The people around Ventura rolled their eyes, tired of the bluster, done with the immaturity, hopeful he was playing fugazi instead of the on-field arsonist they’d seen too many times for their liking. Among his teammates and in the Royals’ front office alike, they’ve long waited for Ventura to grow up, only to end up amazed at how he manages to plumb beneath even his own low standards.
After the game, Orioles manager Buck Showalter summed up the situation perfectly.
“I’m not happy about it at all,” Showalter said. “I thought he was trying to hit him the at-bat before. That’s why I talked to him before he took his last at-bat. I think he signaled breaking ball and shook to fastball. No, I don’t like when any of my guys are put in harm’s way, especially a guy throwing that hard and having some problems with his command tonight.
“But [its] not the first time. Obviously, it must be something that’s OK because he continues to do it. It must be condoned. I don’t know.”
He continues to do it, so it must be condoned. That’s the message the “police yourselves” suspensions have taught Ventura, who has no problem sticking one of the hardest fastballs in baseball into the backs and arms of baseball’s best players. It’s dumb, it’s petulant, and it’s time for MLB to show Ventura that he either needs to change or he can go find something else to do with his life.
Last year, following the bench clearing incident with the White Sox, MLB suspended Ventura for seven games, which caused him to miss one start. After this latest incident, MLB needs to throw the book at him. The punishments escalate significantly for repeat offenders of other behaviors MLB is trying to curb — a second failed PED test brings a suspension twice as long as a first failed test, for instance — and it’s clear that Ventura won’t be deterred from starting fights by simply missing a start and a week’s paycheck. It’s time for a real suspension that sends a real message.
My suggestion? Suspend him for a month. A 30 game suspension will cause him to miss six starts and will take roughly $150,000 out of his paycheck, and would send the message that the penalties are only going to get more harsh if he continues to believe it appropriate to use his fastball as a weapon. Ventura is a habitual offender at this point, and should be treated accordingly. The only way he’s going to stop starting fights is if baseball convinces him they’re serious about stopping him.
The fact that Passan notes that Ventura’s own teammates are even fed up with his actions — Salvador Perez conveniently runs just slow enough to not catch Machado on his way to the mound, even though Machado took a hop stop and made it clear where he was going — and attitude show how out of hand this has all gotten. I understand that the players want the ability to self-police, and the MLBPA will fight any attempt at a long suspension on Ventura’s behalf, but at some point the adults have to step in and put a stop to the childish behavior. Another one-start suspension will simply reinforce the idea that this is all totally fine, and the next time Ventura decides to act like an idiot, he’ll remember that there’s no real cost to doing so.
Machado, of course, isn’t blameless in this either, and should get a longer suspension than other mound-chargers. Machado got into it with Josh Donaldson back in 2014 after he thought he got tagged too hard, and then threw his bat at (or near, at least) the third baseman a few days later when Fernando Abad came inside with a few pitches; that incident drew a five game suspension for Machado, and earned him a bit of a reputation as well. Maybe 10-15 games for Machado would be a significant enough punishment for him to think twice before starting another fight in the future.
But this time, Machado wasn’t the one putting another player in danger. That was Ventura, again, and it’s time for MLB to step in and tell him that enough is enough. This should be the last time Yordano Ventura gets to decide that throwing at people is part of the game. If he wants to be a fighter, he can go join the MMA. If he’s going to pitch in Major League Baseball, he should have to figure out how to do it without turning baseball into a combat sport. And if he can’t do that, well, then MLB doesn’t need Yordano Ventura.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
My guess for suspensions: 8 for Machado, 12 for Ventura.
I hope you’re wrong
So the lunatic Odor can assault a man at second base after throwing at his face and only get 7 games but you want Ventura to get 30? Odor has has numerous incidents as we. Because Machado is the golden boy we seem to forget that Bautista was assaulted.
totally confused. Who is “we”? you lost me after the first sentence
Remember when Machado tried to throw a bat at the opposing pitcher and played it off like it slipped from his hands? He got 5 games.
The Baltimore fans downvote train is strong in this article. Do not bring up past Machado issues, they are not allowed. Only the past Yordano incidents can be discussed.
Baltimore fans don’t read fangraphs, remember? It’s because nobody likes Ventura and you keep defending him. Here’s another down vote for ya…
Where did I defend him? When I called him a lunatic? When I referred to him as a nut job? Where I said he’s a hot headed lunatic? When I said his teammates won’t even defend him it’s so bad? Or when I said he deserves everything that comes his way in terms of criticism and suspension?
You have a very interesting definition of defending a guy.
The issues you’re complaining “aren’t being covered” are literally part of the article you’re commenting on.
Where does the idea that no one is taking Machado’s past into consideration coming from (other than you own mind)?
I know this is why I downvoted your comment. If you clearly haven’t read the article, or ignore parts of it – and complain that “no one is talking about” the things that are in the article….I will downvote you all day.
This is a general discussion about how it’s being viewed around baseball. I understand this particular article brought it up. My response was to those in this comment section putting all the blame on Yordano.
Die hard Orioles fan here who reads fangraphs every day. Idiotic comment. Anyhow, I support a suspension of 3 to 10 games for Manny, because baseball cannot allow players to charge mounds and punch pitchers, even if it is a way of self policing. And Manny does have a bit of a history. I like Manny, just like I like Bryce Harper and Jose Bautista and David Ortiz…Manny just happens to be the star of my favorite team. That said, it does seem all of the above are involved in more than their fair share of problems in these areas, right? We can be honest in that regard and still like the player.
And while we’re speaking honestly, doesn’t it seem different in the case of Ventura? Of course it does…by not a small amount. So Ventura gets double to triple the suspension Manny does. Whether that’s 3 and 10 (low end) or 5 and 10 or 10 and 30 or 7 and 15 really doesn’t matter much to me.
I have a 10 year old son. His first baseball jersey was Machado. I proudly support that. If I were a Royals fan, I would proudly support him owning a Moustakas or Hosmer jersey (or Cain, or Gordon). Not Ventura. Again, there’s a difference.
Odor missed 7 games and left his team playing with 24 men. So what… Ventura just gets to miss one start? It would be an upgrade though for the Royals. I mean this kid is very close to going back to AAA.
I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure you get to fill the roster spot of the suspended player. Profar was called to take his spot.
and reduced on appeal, of course. Because, appeal is just an automatic reduction at this point.
The problem is that Ventura’s behavior becomes a menace not just to the people he’s trying to hit, but eventually to his whole team. He’s in the AL, so he doesn’t bat, so if Machado hadn’t punched the guy you could put money on retribution coming in the form of someone else on the Royals getting plunked. And after that we’ve seen this retribution thing spiral out of control before. This is basically what Ventura is dragging the league into with this stuff, not just one beaned star.
World of difference between saying ‘have some fun, show some emotion’ by encouraging players do bat flips and whatnot, and this type of circus.
This is the reason Mark Teixeira ultimately hit a Vicente Padilla fastball WAYYY over his Flotilla lol
Vicente Padilla! Thank you. That’s who this reminds me of, but I couldn’t remember his name. Dude moved all over during his career, and his teammates always hated him because he threw at the other team and they would get hit in retaliation. If Yordano doesn’t change his ways, I’m afraid he’ll be going down the same path.
Cheers, Dave. Intentionally hitting someone with a pitch needs to go away. It’s always amazed me that something so dangerous has long been considered an acceptable way to police the “unwritten rules.”
At the very least, the batter should have the opportunity to return the favor… designate an area of the field where, after the game, a batter has one shot from 30-35 to pelt a pitcher!
Absurd, maybe, but arguably no more absurd than throwing at someone for revenge lol
When I saw the headline, I was hoping this would be a NotGraphs post.
I hope the people downvoting this just don’t get it, because it is funny, and it was not meant as a disagreement with the substance of the article.
I, too, was hoping for a gif of someone throwing a book at Ventura.
That’ll be the MLB disciplinary hearing. They literally just spend two hours throwing copies of the rule book at Ventura.
I think most people would be ok with this. Encyclopedias and phone books too right?
1. Eaton started the White Sox altercation. Ventura quick pitched him, he ground out to the pitcher, yelled “fuck you” at Ventura as he trotted to first, Ventura stared at him and said “fuck you” back. Benches clear.
2. Ventura deserves a long suspension, maybe 15-20 games – whatever the longest suspension for beaning an opponent is plus a game or two.
3. MLB would be well served in this offseason – so that everyone is clear at the start of 2017 – to set rules saying that if you intentionally throw at the other team (no doubters like this one), you are going to miss a month.
4. #3 will never happen because -players- prefer the way it is.
Thank you for the background re Eaton. As to #4, it’s a bit misleading – it’s specifically the union’s job to unquestioningly advocate for the player however wrong he is – but essentially true, and clearly responsible for the otherwise inexplicable ‘thumb’s down’ votes you’re getting here.
That’s fair. Although I would clarify that I believe if you did a survey of players most would say they prefer their justice to be meted out on the field, rather than off of it.
As to the thumbs down, I’m assuming that’s because I am defending Ventura somewhat regarding his role in one of last year’s bench-clearing incidents. It’s not a popular position for obvious reasons, but I do believe that it is a truthful one.
If he quick pitched Eaton then I feel he started that brawl too. The quick pitch is technically against the rules. Umps are supposed to give batters time to get set. When they don’t and a pitcher quick pitches a guy they blow it. Just like they blow dozens of K/B calls every game. Also the quick pitch is probably the most bush league thing a pitcher can do so there’s also that.
Well, using your rationale, maybe you can say the UMP started that brawl.
That’s not at all what happened on the Eaton/Ventura exchange. Ventura made a nice play on the comebacker and then IMMEDIATELY took 2 steps towards him to show him up. There was no time for Ventura to hear anything from Eaton prior to that while at the same time making the play. Eaton chirped at him after Ventura’s antics. Ventura is the ultimate dick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-3vTjr-xlU
“Adam Eaton hit a sharp one-hop grounder back to the mound with two outs in a 2-2 tie, but instead of immediately throwing to first base for the third out, Ventura delayed and stared at Eaton for a moment. Eaton said an obsenity to Ventura, who yelled an obsenity back before throwing to first base.”
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/white-sox-royals-fight-after-yordano-ventura-adam-eaton-staredown/
“”It was a messy situation. I got the ground ball and was unable to control my emotions in that play, and it turned out ugly,” Ventura said.
“[Eaton] said something to me. I responded back to him,” he said. “It wasn’t my intention, but maybe he interpreted it from the way I fielded the ball. But it was a hard comebacker, kind of put me off-balance, at which point I took those steps that incited him and he responded back, clearly emotional. If there wasn’t the yelling between us, it would have resolved much more favorably, and not the way that it did.””
http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/12751988/yordano-ventura-adam-eaton-exchange-leads-kansas-city-royals-chicago-white-sox-bench-clearing
And for the life of me I can’t find it but there is video of Eaton from the CF camera where he hits the ball and while he’s running out of the box, he is cursing at Ventura.
I guess it’s a matter of what you believe can actually happen in that time frame. Eaton would have to have said it during the follow through of his swing and Ventura, who is catching a hot comebacker would have to make that play while processing what he heard and instantaneously respond to the batter. That doesn’t seem plausible. What does, is that Ventura made a great play and reacted poorly to his great play.
Is there other footage of Eaton being a prick? Could be, as he is an emotional player, but I don’t see that being the case in this context including the evidence provided in interviews and video available.
I had heard/read that Eaton said “Throw the fucking ball [to first instead of staring at me]” at the time. Who knows.
This would be a reasonable response to someone who took two steps towards you after catching a ball hard off your bat. Not for a quick pitch.
The whole discussion of the Eaton thing is a waste of time. So 2 grown ass men can’t talk trash to each other? This is sports. Regardless of what was said, Eaton came back at Ventura after the play was over.
I think there should be more of an incentive for teams and players to dissuade its players from engaging in this form of on-field justice. One suggestion would be to prohibit teams from filling the roster spot of a suspended player; that would encourage teams and teammates to put pressure on players to not take justice into their own hands.
That would be intense. So a guy gets a 162-game PED suspension and the team plays with 24 men for a year? That would certainly change the calculus.
I limited my recommendation to “this form of on-field justice”; it does not apply to PED suspensions. Also, MLB could amend my recommendation by saying that the roster reduction lasts for the lesser of the length of the suspension and 10 games or whatever maximum roster reduction period they set.
I wonder how much the incentives would change if teams couldn’t replace a PED user on the roster, though… Teams almost certainly turn more of a blind eye than they should because of their moral hazard.
The only downside, IMO, is it theoretically could affect pitchers injuries. But there’s really no rational reason a team can’t live off 11 pitchers, instead of the absurd 12/13 most carry. I doubt that would increase injury odds, but would definitely hurt a team’s wining percentage.
Actually, I quite like the idea.
Do you specialize in UCL replacement surgeries? Good plan to drum up business.
Why would UCL injuries necessarily occur? The team could replace the suspended pitcher with another pitcher under my recommendation; the team would just go with one less position player. Also, the longest MLB suspension for a non-PED event since 2000 is 10 games.
If a team is going to run shorthanded, it will inevitably increase the workload on bulllpen arms.
Yeah, maybe, although I enjoy baseball less without these players and would prefer the players and organizations work these things out rather than supervisors. Would be amusing to reach the point where Royals do not approach in defense of their teammate.
Machado deserves, and will no doubt get, a suspension similar to what Odor got, but Ventura deserves something a lot longer. The article is totally right – Ventura has had the reputation of throwing at hitters and starting fights essentially since he arrived in the league.
I’ve always liked the way Sal Perez plays, this made me like him more.
The Royals visit the Mets later this month. If Ventura isn’t suspended during the series, the guy deserves a Syndergaard/Harvey fastball to the back. Its probably not the right way to handle this, and its an unwritten rule you don’t hit another teams pitcher, but maybe we can make an exception? Maybe stick him in front of a pitching machine Happy Gilmore style and let him wear a few?
No, no, no. Very much no.
The problem here is that far too often players are trying to avenge behavior that violates the code. The fact that Ventura has taken the code too far means that he should be punished by the body entrusted with doling out punishment: the league, not the players themselves.
The players cannot be trusted to police themselves in a reasonable way; the league needs to own this role, and it needs to do this in a way that is sufficiently convincing that players recognize that any attempt to act in a retribution role where the players can dole out punishment for bad behavior is off limits.
I completely agree that a league punishment is the best way to handle it, and I expect that’s how it will be handled. I’m not advocating intentionally throwing at players. But I also think its cowardly to consistently hit batters with 95+ MPH fastballs while hiding on the mound behind all your teammates, and sometimes guys just like the chaos and violence. Suspensions wont change that. Sometimes a guy has to learn hes not invulnerable.
Then let’s add “don’t intentionally hit batters” to the written rule book.
1)It’s dangerous
2) No real good comes from it
3) As mentioned above, Ventura is in no real chance of getting hit himself
4) It’s also bad game strategy (giving the team a free base)
Agree, although it’ll be a tough grey area (this was an obvious case though). HBP are just part of the game, but theres no place for intent to injure. Also, like you said, intentionally putting a guy on base makes you look like a moron rather than a mercenary more often than not
Just to be clear, ‘don’t intentionally hit batters’ IS ALREADY IN THE WRITTEN RULE BOOK.
Rule 6.02 (c):
The pitcher shall not:
…
(9) Intentionally Pitch at the Batter.
(1) If, in the umpire’s judgment, such a violation occurs, the umpire may elect either to:
(A) Expel the pitcher, or the manager and the pitcher,
from the game, or
(B) may warn the pitcher and the manager of both
teams that another such pitch will result in the
immediate expulsion of that pitcher (or a replacement)
and the manager.
I believe what Shauncore is proposing is a written suspension ladder, similar to PED use. Thanks for clearing it up that it is against the rules to hit batters with fastballs, I now know it is rule 6.02. First comment was tongue and cheek
The problem is that if you hit Ventura, then Ventura will get mad and seek revenge, leading to back and forth beanballs/bench clearing incidents. Different teams have different perspectives on when something is truly “even.”
Machado should get suspended for the full 7 games, no doubt. He has a history of letting his emotions getting the best of him and he needs to learn to control it. Although, I’ve never had a 99 mph fastball intentionally drilled into my kidneys, so I don’t know what my reaction would be either. I was watching the game last night and Machado had 3 tight inside fastballs thrown to him in his previous at bat by Ventura, Machado took exception then, and no warnings were issued. So maybe the umpires need to be evaluated too.
Ventura, on the hand, is messing with players careers. The league obviously is well aware it and needs to hand down a stiff penalty. I was saying the same thing as Dave Cameron last night, it should be 30 games. Or definitely more then 1 start anyway. Machado can let his emotions get the best of him sometimes, but Ventura’s actions are downright malicious by using a 95+ mph object as a weapon.
Can someone explain to me how Machado is supposed to avoid charging the mound after that kind of attack? If a guy tries to hit you three times and then succeeds and you slowly walk to first as he is dispassionately ejected, and he’s jawing at you about your cowardice as he slowly walks off the field. It seems inhuman to be expected not to react. How could Machado not have charged the mound.
I mean, not charging the mound has been done before, but I’m not saying Machado SHOULDN’T have charged the mound. I’m saying he probably will and should get suspended for charging the mound and throwing the first punch. It works both ways, but Ventura deserves a stronger punishment.
What makes you think he tried to hit him 3 times?
In the 2nd inning AB, Ventura comes inside twice, the second ball being way inside, and then the third pitch is an inside strike which he hits to deep left for an out. Then they jaw at each other.
At his next plate appearance, Ventura hits him with the very first pitch.
He wanted to hit him there, almost surely because of the verbal exchange in the 2nd inning. (Ed. note: I believe intentionally throwing at someone has no place in baseball)
He did not want to plunk him in the first AB. You know how we can surmise that? Because he didn’t do it and he clearly has no compunction about HBPs.
He didn’t try to hit him 3 times. Machado has a history of taking any inside pitch personally so it’s kind of difficult to trust his emotions and responses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65JTu0lxDSE
How could he have not charged the mound? Easily, by walking to first base.
Machado’s history is just as bad as Yordano’s, but for some reason this article and most criticism has been thrown at Yordano only.
Here’s another of Manny’s gems;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IUgNRVrna8
I know about the bat throwing incident. It happened two years ago. It was stupid. Happened after Machado made a bunch of noise about Donaldson tagging him too hard. Then the A’s pitcher threw a fastball at him, Machado swung and let the bat go. It was a completely dumb, immature move that could’ve ended worse. A 5 game suspension was a slap on the hand. He hasn’t really done anything since, other than getting tossed a few times for arguing balls and strikes.
Ventura on the other hand is head hunting. He caused three bemch clearing brawls last year, including hitting 2 Orioles in a game last year, Machado being one them. Then there was Morales hitting Davis in the back last year after back to back homeruns by the Orioles. Obviously there’s some blood boiling with these two teams, and comes down more to just Machado having a temper. Ventura picked the right guy to instigate with and got the results he was looking for. He’s also rumored in the Royals clubhouse he to wants to hit Jose Bautista (another hot head) the next time he sees him.
His act needs to stop.
No, Manny’s history isn’t close to Ventura’s. You’ve cited two examples, both from the same weekend series and entirely related. Manny overreacted to the Donaldson tag, then Abad threw behind him, and he overreacted to that. He was embarrassed by it, his team and fans were embarrassed by it — it was a childish display.
Do you have ANY examples of aggressive behavior by Manny outside of that one series? Certainly, it’s quite clear that Ventura has had serious beef with nearly a half-dozen teams in his short career; so to compare the two, presumably you can point to more than the one series where he had (major) issues with controlling his emotions against the A’s?
In this situation, Ventura has pitched 37 innings against the Orioles and hit 4 batters. One every 9.3 innings, compared to one every 30+ innings against the rest of the league. In 2014, he hit Nelson Cruz (a mentor of Manny’s). In 2015, in the game after Morales threw at Davis (and Davis broke his bat on the ground like a toothpick), Ventura hit Manny AND Davis. And another Royal hit Jones in the same game (after he had homered off Ventura earlier). A purely coincidental beaning of the Orioles’ 3 best players.
Flash forward to last night, Ventura is getting annihilated by the O’s bats from the first pitch, and then runs two pitches hard and tight towards their best player. Manny responds by yelling at him, and Ventura then proceeds to smoke him with a 99mph fastball on the very next pitch.
At some point, it has to stop. The guy is a menace and seemingly an outright maniac. The umpires and the league have done nothing to protect these hitters from Ventura. And if “self-policing” is then the unspoken preferred policy, Manny was left with no real choice. The only other “self-policing” option would be having an Orioles pitcher throw a retaliation pitch at a Royals position player who had no culpability whatsoever, which would make no sense and only continue the cycle.
So Manny Machado, who is 23 years old, has thrown a bat at a player, got in the face of a player for “tagging him too hard” and now charged a mound and thrown punches. You ask for “more incidents” to say that Manny is also a lunatic? Am I reading that correctly? Can you name another player in all of baseball that has lost their cool that badly 3 times in their entire careers? Let alone by the age of 23.
Yodano Ventura.
Not sure getting in someone’s face is really that noteworthy. Dozens of guys per season “get in someone’s face.”
You’re not going to “win” any argument in here if you’re doing anything other than attacking Ventura.
This is a binary environment: Ventura is a piece of trash and Machado is a model of temperament.
The narrative has been set, no point in pushing back now.
Matt Bush and Elijah Dukes both did a lot worse crap at a younger age. I knew that, and I’m just a gridironhead horse.
Just neighing.
Last season Ventura pointed to his head while getting ejected saying he was going to drill someone in the head.
Congrats on the world series though Rational Fan.
Ventura is a scumbag. I can not stand the Royals. Your assumptions couldn’t be anymore misguided.
That was Kelvin Herrera. Also, inexcusable you shouldn’t throw at players.
The pointing was him saying “use your head” or “think about it” in response to Brett Lawrie cleating Alcides Escobar the night before(?) to break up a double play (that wasn’t going to happen anyway – hence “use your head”)
Machado’s history is as bad as Ventura’s? Really?
Ventura picked a fight with Mike-effing-Trout for no good reason at all, among all of his other incidents. He’s immature and needs to be dealt with.
Machado had a really, really bad weekend once. He’s been pretty quiet since then.
He could have turned right and walked to first base instead. That’d avoid charging the mound.
I sort of agree to a point. If Machado had gone to first base, all it wouldve lead to would be another player getting put in harms way because of moronic actions by the pitcher. Hosmer or Cain were going to wear one. This is why the DH needs to end. Let Ventura stand up there and see how comfortable he feels continually throwing at people when his career and ability to feed his family is put in someone elses hands.
I won’t defend Ventura’s throwing at people, but I don’t think his history is as horrible as you are selling it to be. I can only think of one other incident where he put other player’s health at risk. That was when he beaned Brett Lawrie, after Lawrie’s controversial slide injured Alcides Escobar.
Again, I’m not defending this action. I’m just saying that it merely puts him in the same boat as a bunch of other players who have done similar things.
You point out the other altercations he has been involved in. He was not “messing with careers” when he was talking to Eaton or when he puffed his chest in front of Mike Trout and should not be a factor in suspending him here.
If we are going to come down hard on pitchers who bean batters, lets come down equally hard on players who throw hay-makers because somebody on the other team said a naughty word. That’s just as dangerous.
Fair enough. I’d just hate see when an intended fastball to the back of a player slips and ends up above the shoulders. It’s still putting the hitter at risk. If you’re going to do it, throw a curve in the dirt and make the hitter move his feet. It’s probably not any better but it’s not a fastball at the body either.
Players cannot police themselves. Self policing means retaliation, and therefore additional instances of the actions policing intends to curb. It’s an escalation mechanism.
And, of course, intending to hit a player with a pitch means assaulting that played.
Well said, this is the same boneheaded approach that the NHL favors. It is beyond time for MLB to grow up and stop acting like spoiled children. Tit for tat retaliation is about as dumb of a policy as could be employed. These are grown men working in a billion dollar industry, clean this crap up before we see more idiotic injuries like the exceptionally dangerous act perpetrated by Gibson et al against Cutch in 2014.
Whatever the NHL does with regards to player safety is wrong per se. So, if the NHL condones retaliation, fighting and goon play, the other sports would be wise to avoid these things.
At least in the NHL, both players are on equal footing when they fight each other, and usually they fight each other willingly.
In MLB on the other hand, you have one guy armed with a 90+ mph pitch, and the other with nothing except trying to charge the mound AFTER he’s been hit.
Fighting may not be good for the NHL, but at least the fights are usually fair.
Even the NHL is trying to move away from that aspect of the game.
I disagree that self policing is necessarily retaliation, there just isn’t a mechanism in place giving players that power, so they use the available means.
Perez reaction reminds me of the behavior we all have with that one friend that always talks shit and gets into trouble, and you feel obligated to help him out so he doesn’t get his butt kicked but you know he’s an asshole. You kind of want him to learn his lesson, even the hard way. I’m talking about middle school, of course.
If you spend enough of your life in bars, at some point you find yourself with that one friend well after middle school, too. You just tire of the act a little sooner and let nature take its course in that instance.
Great analogy – made my brain jump straight to Begbie from Trainspotting. I guess not everyone grows out of it after middle school. https://youtu.be/vc3E7UkIzt4?t=2m42s
Raise your hand anyone who believes suspending Ventura for 30 games / a month or so would represent a meaningful enough deterrent *in his mind* to lower significantly the probability of him acting out again.
The way he’s been pitching, KC needing to find a guy to fill in for 5 starts instead of one could end up costing him a roster spot. That might be a wake up call.
Not like the other options are pitching above replacement level though. Then again neither is the 99 mph fireballer who cant strike out more than 5 over 9.
Not to mention it would take him about 200 pitches to even GET through those 9 innings…
The striking comment in my mind was the KC announcer saying that teams are trying to bully the Royals, and that Ventura is just trying to look out for his team. C’mon, what a ridiculous thing to say.
Ventura is a sociopath.
Who said that? Provide a link please. I was watching the FSKC broadcast and what I took away was a deep sense of disappointment about Ventura’s behavior.
However, Rex “Uncle Hud” Hudler is a colossal dummy who almost surely believes in “the old way of doing things” so it’s possible that he could have said something like that and I missed it.
It’s the video one paragraph into this article.
That’s out of context.
Ryan Lefebvre was referring to last year the Royals (right or wrong) felt like team’s were trying to bully them.
That was not representative of the content of Ryan’s commentary last night.
If I remember correctly, he describes what went down last year and then said “this isn’t that” and that “this is not a fight the royals needed or wanted.”
Seems like the context doesn’t change anything…
Homer announcer is defending the league leader in this types of incidents over the last two seasons as being the “victims”.
its funny cause history just keeps repeating itself with the Royals. I guess they are victims for 10 percent of the league now.
The kid on the hill surely wanted it and his manager has let multiple pitchers on his team the past 3 years continually throw at batters.
I would go standard suspension for Machado and throw the book at Ventura. Machado’s past should have no bearing due to the mitigating circumstances.
I am totally frustrated with Ventura – when a talented player is a hothead, it’s an exploitable weakness. I’m not saying Machado is to blame (neither party is innocent here), but Ventura always allows other players to get into his head and it manifests in the worst possible way. He’s 25, and the Royals are on the hook with him at least for another 3 years. I hope he grows up a little after whatever suspension he gets.
I don’t disagree that Yordano is a hot headed danger to the game, and that he deserves to get all the shit he gets. His teammates don’t even defend him. That said, Machado is a hot head POS as well. He’s the same guy who threw his bat intentionally into the field of play attempting to hit someone; he’s also the same guy who tried to fight someone for tagging him too hard.
If they are increasingly bothered by his antics, could not the Royals suspend Ventura themselves?
It’s possible, but the team always seems to have much more difficulty defending themselves against the union in such a situation than does the Commish’s office.
“The MMA”? That’s like saying he should go play “the basketball”.
No, it’s like saying he should go play in the NBA. Or the MLB. Or the NHL. All of which are correct.
No, the UFC is like saying the NBA. MMA is the name of the sport (mixed martial arts).
Thanks, Fred.
Thanks, TheFred.
/fixed
Yeah, like Dave Cameron, you obviously don’t watch ‘the UFC’ or understand ‘MMA’. It was a joke, relax. Also, you’re wrong.
I’m seeing 7-8 thrown around on Machado. I’d honestly be shocked if its more than 5. When you talk about being provoked, what happened to him is way worse than what happened to Odor.
How? That’s assuming Yordano was trying to hit Machado the at-bat prior as opposed to simply pitching him in. Machado then hit a ball to the wall and proceeded to run his mouth while walking up the first base line staring at Yordano.
This insistence on Machado being some innocent bystander is comical to me. Machado’s history of being a punk is nearly as bad as Yordano’s. These guys were made for each other. I would actually argue throwing a bat intentionally onto the field of play trying to harm a player is much worse than throwing at a batter. Machado has done that. He does not deserve a free pass.
You’ll have to explain how trash talking on a flyball out is the same instigation level as being hit in the ribs with a 99 mph heater.
He charged the mound and threw punches. He’s a grown man who should have just taken his base and let the league sort it out.
This insistence on Manny being some innocent bystander is just inaccurate. Machado is a hot headed instigator as well. He does not deserve a pass just because Yordano is also a hot headed lunatic.
Machado is a great player so people want to give him a pass. His past actions should be taken into account as well in this suspension. Both players need to grow up.
But he didn’t throw a lethal weapon at another human being, though, right?
A bat isn’t a lethal weapon?
What speed was the bat travelling at by the time it got near the guy? Come on, it’s nowhere near the same thing.
He threw a bat last night? Weird how it’s not in the video and no one has mentioned it.
Oh, you mean two years ago? Huh. We’re talking about last night.
There’s literally not a single batter in the game that wouldn’t have charged the mound in Machado’s case.
Who’s calling him an innocent bystander? He’s clearly going to get suspended. The question, however, is if Ventura will continue to transgress and be dangerous to other players.
Machado had a serious issue 2 years ago. This incident doesn’t seem to be part of a pattern, given that I’d expect 75%+ of MLB players to respond the same (wrong) way.
My point is that Machado has BIG_MISTAKE from 2 years ago, and this incident. I don’t get the sense there’s a pattern from 2 very different data points.
Ventura, however, does seem like he has a trend going. Especially given the comments from the front office and clubhouse.
I get that you see yourself as the counterculture voice of rationality here at FG, but you really aren’t adding anything to the conversation. This site has a desperate need of an alternate voice, but I’m afraid you have failed in your self-appointed role.
Is there any way to block comments from specific users? That would make my FG comment reading experience so much nicer!
You would think that if he was trying to pitch inside, that Perez would set up inside, but as you can see in the video in the article, which includes the first at-bat, Perez sets up low and away each time. So either Ventura had no control, or he was going off book.
I agree that he should be suspended 30 games, but I don’t think MLB will do that because of the Chapman suspension, I don’t think they want to mess with what the NFL has gone through in having DV suspensions the same length as other lesser “crimes”.
Manfred has an easy out on that one, though. Chapman is a reliever, so 30 games is a potential 20+ appearances for that player. Ventura is a starter, so you’re only looking at 5-6 appearances.
MLB has its hands tied because its suspensions have to fit within precedent and the overall context of the rules. Attempting to exceed that to teach the player a lesson will simply be overturned on appeal. Dayton Moore and Ned Yost are the ones who can meaningfully affect Yordano Ventura and put an end to this. They need to explain that his actions reflect poorly on the organization and subject his teammates to retaliation, then banish him to the minor leagues. Whenever he is eventually recalled, it should be explained that any additional transgression will result in another demotion.
If you walk down the street and meet an asshole, you met an asshole.
If you walk down the street and meet nothing but assholes, you’re the asshole.
Guess which one describes Yordano Ventura?
The suspensions for pitchers have always been a joke. Machado will get around 8 games. And Ventura will get close to 10. So the O’s lose their star player for over a week and the royals lose a middling pitcher for potentially 1 maybe 2 starts. Seems like a balanced system.
at this point Ventura not pitching is a good thing for the Royals.
This is an incorrect argument. Although SP don’t play as much as everyday guys, when they do play, they have significantly more impact. That’s how SP with 34 starts can have WAR in the similar range as batters, with 160 starts.
Pitchers missing a start is within a fudge factor of hitters missing a few games.
He’s working within the framework that’s been allowed for decades. I think they should give him a normal suspension for this and then make a change in punishment procedures going forward that will apply to all future situations. He doesn’t deserve to be made an example of because, in my recollection, we haven’t seen a 30 game suspension for hitting a guy before.
There also aren’t many guys who desire to start altercations at the same rate as Ventura.
They should throw the book at 99mph.
Don’t forget that the little tyke Ventura head hunted against the Blue Jays last year, too.
No he didnt. Ventura pitched the game before the one with all the animosity (and nothing happeneded the whole game). It was Edinson Volquez who pitched the game you are likely referring too.
But hey, why let facts get in the way of a narrative.
Take a look at the home plate umpire’s actions during Machado’s second inning fly out. The home plate ump took off his helmet and mask as soon as Machado hit the ball. An ump never removes the mask unless he is anticipating talking directly to a player or coach. The ump is even seen talking to Machado and is positioning himself to get between Machado and Ventura should something happen during the fly ball out. Machado even walks down the line with no attention paid to his hit ball. Something was said by Machado during that at bat that caused the home plate ump to expect some sort of action. Frankly I’m amazed that Ventura is being blamed for almost 100% of the responsibility for last nights brawl. The blame lies with both of them. Period.
Secondly, the actions of the Baltimore organization is curious. Buck Showalter all but said he condoned and welcomed Machado’s actions. Other players admitted to being upset with KC since the ALCS in 2014 and were waiting to get back at them. Several players publicly stating Ventura is “off” mentally is only adding fuel to the fire. This has been brewing in Baltimore for 1 1/2 years and it boiled over last night. Machado was the relief valve and he popped his top.
Tonight’s game will tell just how deep the tension really is. If nothing happens then it’s a one off incident. If it erupts, THEN and only then, MLB has some serious things to look into.
So MLB should use this 1 game as an indicator of what they should do? Umm ok.
MLB is selective on their penalties depending on the teams involved. Baltimore’s manager publicly stated he was OK with Machado charging the mound. Other team mates were willing to pay his penalty and praised his actions. The Oriole players were talking about being upset with KC since their defeat of Baltimore in the ALCS in 2014. Those comments should tell MLB that the Orioles were planning some sort of action against KC. This goes deeper than a couple of brush back pitches.
That’s why I said the actions in tonights game will let MLB determine penalties.
No, otherwise the Orioles would have been the initiators, which they weren’t. What it tells you is that the Orioles were tired of the Royals’ shenanigans and weren’t going to put up with it if provoked yet again. I applaud Machado for punching Ventura. Someone clearly needed to, and yes, sometimes violence between consenting adults is the answer.
Machado could have been screwing Ventura’s mother in the dugout while shouting “YORDANO!” and Ventura would still be 100% at fault. He is the full grown adult acting like a toddler and throwing stuff at people when his poor little feelings get hurt.
So Ventura can’t handle a bit of trash talk and throws a 99mph heater (the fastest of the night, mind you) with intent to hit the batter, and it’s somehow not all his fault?
You, sir, lose the internet today.
How do you know the ump wasn’t reacting the Yordano after the flyout?
They are both at fault, but Yordano is more at fault.
You had me going all the way with the lengthy suspension for YV until you added the part about Machado not being innocent either. I’m not sure who both these guys can be guilty. Trash talking on a flyball out isn’t the same thing as using a 99 mph FB as a weapon. Not even close.
This is the problem with the whole asinine macho culture these guys have perpetuated… that no one can be “shown up” or there will be a price to pay. This beanball culture has to be excised from the game like a boil. Seriously, it’s the same thing with the take out slides. Some will continue to say it’s part of the game, etc. Bullspit. The game doesn’t need this crap. Pitchers can pitch inside without the beaning.
Ventura 25 game suspension. Machado 4.
You’re complaining that he said Machado wasn’t innocent, and then you’re advocating that Machado gets suspended for 4 games?
I agree with the title of this article–cannot stand Ventura, but let us not forget when Machado threw his bat at Josh Donaldson and deliberately let his bat swing around and hit Oakland’s catcher in the head. He’s got a pretty decent sized % of butthole in him too.
He can be suspended for charging the mound but he’s not guilty of instigating a brawl. There is a huge difference. Charging the mound should carry a minimum suspension of 3 or 4 games, but the beanball crap some pitchers carry on needs to be outlawed.
I think they should try something different as a punishment and instead force the Royals to use him every 4 days (short rest) for the remainder of the season.
Apolitical side note: you can see Machado really want to start charging immediately after getting hit, but since the (99 mph) pitch hit him right above the hip he clearly has a couple muscle spasms and he reconsiders for a second before adrenaline kicked in and he kinda hops through the pain before charging. I wonder how his back is feeling today, and maybe the suspension will actually help him in that he’ll be able to convalesce a little
Note to Machado, stop overreacting every time someone throws inside and they won’t throw inside so much. If I was an opposing manager in a game 7 I’d tell my ace to hit him with the first pitch and stare him down, let him get upset and take himself out of the game. This article is all about Ventura’s immaturity, but would Ventura have hit him without the slow-walk-smack-talk-staredown after the earlier fly out? Grow up Manny.
“If I was an opposing manager in a game 7 I’d tell my ace to hit him with the first pitch and stare him down”
Are you (a) six, or (b) Kirk Gibson?
6-year-olds know better than to throw stuff at people because they are angry. So I’m going with B
The ace intentionally hitting a batter and getting ejected is an OK cost to letting machado “take himself out of the game”? (whatever that means)
No.
I’m still holding out hope for Robin Ventura charging Yordano Ventura.
I bet Ventura would win.
Maybe that’s Yordano’s issue… he’s embarassed at how Ryan thumped Robin and is only trying to uphold the Ventura name.
Considering how poorly MLB handled the Odor situation, I can’t see them dropping a big suspension on Ventura. He definitely deserves it, though, but unfortunately it isn’t likely to happen.
30 games sounds a bit draconian, but I do get the feeling that Ventura is incorrigible. You can clearly see that Perez didn’t make any effort to stop Machado from getting a lick in, and neither did Eric Hosmer running in from first. I’d be willing to bet both of those guys, as team leaders on the Royals, have said something to Ventura before, and he’s not listening.
And that announcer talking about “teams trying to intimidate the Royals” is a joke. If anything, KC has been trying that tack with other teams ever since April of last year.
Comparing Odor to Ventura is stupidity. Bautista to Ventura is a closer comparison in my view. Ventura also endangers his team mates who are duty bound to join the brawl(s). Jason Vargas, who is rehabbing, ended up in the bottom of that pile last night. The incidents with Trout and Eaton show me how unbalanced Ventura truly is…..KC needs to do something drastic.
Go back and watch the Odor throw on Bautista’s slide. The throw was strikingly intentionally close to Bautista’s head.
Clearly the Royals have been ineffective at policing Ventura. Just look at the quotes from their manager–he’s asking for help.
Next time someone rushes the mound on Ventura, all the Royals players should just stay in their dugout, and let Ventura fight his own little ridiculous fights.
That would be amazing.
I was watching this and before all the bench clearing Ventura was losing 5-0 and strutting around on the mound, stylin’ and profilin’,like he had a perfect game going with all strikeouts. He’s a freaking moron.
Ban dugouts and other players joining in. A pitcher wants to throw at a batter, let the batter and pitcher go at it one on one. Bet it would stop, quickly.
If Ventura had to stand in a box and face a pitcher, he’d think twice about hitting guys as often. I wonder if there will be a bounty for the next interleague series pitcher that faces him to hit him?
Herrera and Ventura are problems. The Astros lost George Springer to a broken wrist in 2015 because of an obvious bean ball from the Royals. They also had the audacity to drill Carlos Correa in the back in that series as well. Its never the teams bad players. Its their superstars. If Manfred wants to see players like Machado, Donaldson or Correa get drilled in the head by a 99 mph fastball and their career end, then I guess this will just be another slap on the wrist for what is looking like an organizational issue.
If I were an opposing manager, I would instruct every player on my team to talk trash to Ventura at every possible moment, until he snaps and gets ejected. ESPECIALLY if Ventura is the first pitcher in a series.
The KC bullpen is good. But having to scrape together 6 innings the first game of a series can only help my side.
In slo-mo, it looks like Ventura throws the first (weak) punch. Am I wrong?
At that point it doesn’t matter, Machado didn’t go out there to talk.
Neither player looks adept at fighting, but I applaud Ventura’s technique which was to evade and then pile drive Machado which neutralized the latter’s superior reach.
Get this…Vordano Yentura
And…Manny Machado. I mean Ma – ah damn it.
For me it’s all about intent. Ventura clearly, intentionally plunked Machado. However, would he have been thrown out, or suspended, or repremanded at all if Machado doesn’t charge the mound? I really hope that yes, he would’ve, but maybe not, I don’t know if we can assume logic from the powers that be. In this weird, backwards way, it’s an almost defensible reason for Machado to charge the mound. Having said that, 30 year old me knows that the most responsible course of action would’ve been to trust that the umpire would handle things, or Showalter would come out and debate loudly enough that MLB takes action against Ventura, but I’d be lying if I came here to say 23 year old me wouldn’t have done the same thing. No knock to Dave, I agree with all of hos points and also view him as someone who is capable of making the right decisions in even a heated moment like that, but for me, and I think for most athletes, the right decision isn’t always so easy. Perhaps this is a long way of saying, the decision to throw the book at Ventura has to come now, and it’s probably already too late.
The DH causes some of this, AL pitchers for the most part never have to bat and if they do it’s against the NL and there is little hard feeling against a club you only see every few years. This guys reminds me of Carlos Zambrano, who was likely just a few cards short of a full deck o begin with.
If you really think Ventura deserves 30 games, then you should really push for a 60 game suspension, because by the time the Union negotiates, it will be down to 30 games.
And Matt Bush didn’t even get tossed from the game for hitting Joey Bats
Throw the book at them both.
They’re both wrong. Ventura shouldn’t have thrown at Machado and Machado shouldn’t have charged the mound, and they both have a really bad history. Teach them a lesson: 90 days each, reduced to 45 by the MLBPA. Maybe they’ll learn not to be such knuckleheads next time.
They should punish him by forcing him to pitch in the NL.
By “NL” I think you mean “AA”.
(Not that the NL is the equivalent of a minor league, but rather, send him to pitch for Peoria in front of 800 people and see if he enjoys the bus ride over to the next game in East Hellhole.)
The punch was weak, but that was the best DDT I’ve ever seen in baseball.
Bah Gawd!
“— Salvador Perez conveniently runs just slow enough to not catch Machado on his way to the mound, even though Machado took a hop stop and made it clear where he was going —”
Perez clearly let Machado retaliate. You’re catcher doesn’t have your back? Not good.
Intentionally throwing at hitters is one of the biggest issues with the game today. I know McCutchen cracked a vertebra being intentionally thrown at. I don’t know any other specific examples off the top of my head but I’m sure there have been multiple broken wrists and other injuries as a result of an intentional beaning. It is usually the opposing team’s star being thrown at so it puts an increased risk on losing the best players for significant amounts of time. One of these days we may see a Bryce Harper or Mike Trout crack a scapula or suffer a severe concussion and it is going to be because an opposing pitcher or team has hurt feelings and know no better way to take out their frustrations other than deliberately trying to injure an opponent.
Is there another sport where deliberately attempting to injure opponents is celebrated by the players rather than looked down on? Fights in hockey are usually the result of dirty hits that cause injuries. Head shots and slew footing results in fights. The fights are counter-productive in my opinion but that is beside the point. Combat sports like MMA or Boxing are really the only ones that would and baseball should not be boxing.
I think they need much harsher suspensions on pitchers. I don’t think there has ever been a suspension for throwing at opponents that has cost a starting pitcher more than one start. They are relatively unpunished and most of the time just get an extra rest day rather than being punished at all. Maybe you could suspend every player and coach that leaves the dugouts to join the fights. I know that is suspension worthy in both basketball and hockey. If everyone leaves the dugouts then you forfeit your next game. That would eliminate these stupid dugout clearing brawls.
Warnings for intentionally throwing at batters should be removed. It is already against the rules to throw at batters and punishable with ejections. All the warnings do is guarantee that the pitcher gets one free shot because he knows he won’t be tossed for it. It almost adds incentive to be first to throw at the opponent because you know if they retaliate then their pitcher will be ejected. Occasionally a pitcher will be wrongfully tossed. However, I’d much rather occasionally see a pitcher be undeservedly tossed than continue to see them get away with free shots at the batters.
I can’t think of any other possible remedies right now but something needs to be done. It is childish. Little kids know better than to throw something at a person because of hurt feelings but apparently we can’t expect the same from grown adults. It is embarrassing. It is going to get someone severely injured. It gives the impression that assaulting someone is the appropriate response to having your feelings hurts. It creates a never ending cycle where my guy throws at your guy so your guy throws at ours and back and forth. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. Baseball’s unwritten rules will result in all of the players being blind besides the guys actually taking the eyes because there is no consequence for pitchers acting like toddlers.
Football players (ESPECIALLY defensive lineman and LBs) are famous for cheap shots in the dogpile. Like, 10x worse stuff on average than a typical baseball game.
I used to listen to a LB who would call the radio the next morning and laugh about the cheap shots (hitting guys in the groin, poking eyes with their fingers).
The bigger issue would lie into how it affects the umpiring crew for that team for the series, and subsequent series involving inside pitches.
Maybe someone can do a heatmap on pitch-location after HBP conflicts, but usually I observe it being a little tougher for pitchers to pitch inside. This can either effect one or both teams.
Even pitches that jam or “keep a hitter honest (where they lay it a little high but maybe 2-3 inches off the plate)” would have to be thrown with extreme caution, and how many pitchers in the league have that type of command on that corner?
Ventura makes it harder for pitchers to utilize the inside as an advantage, and wayward balls that get close to the batter will be more scrutinized. Most times these fights happen when the game is out of hand, but it has a negative impact on other staff’s ability to pitch. Bad sportsmanship just for the fact it puts their rotation at a disadvantage far beyond the conflict and beyond possible future retribution.
IMHO, Ned Yost should tell Yordano that the next time he hits someone on purpose, he’s out of the game as of that pitch.
Could a pitcher go to jail for assault if he admitted to intentionally throwing at a batter?
Reading some people reactions you would think Ventura had a history of stabbing people or something.
AFAIK over thr last 40ish starts he has gotten into a couple arguments (Trout and Eaton) hit one guy as retaliation for a dirty slide (Lawrie) and now hit Machado.
This is the track record that gets you labeled as a “sociopath” and people calling for your head? I think alot of you need to calm down.
I fully understand wanting to stick up for a guy on your favorite team, but you’re grossly minimizing what this guy has done and done repeatedly. Sort of like saying there was a fire in the twin towers on 9/11. Accurate, but not really true.
Not sticking up for him at all. He is an idiot and even worse a not very good idiot. But some people are acting like he he hits every second batter he faces.
I mean the trout thing was about as lame of a “inncident” as i have ever seen. Yet a year later people are acting like it was a full on brawl caused by Ventura punching Trouts mother.
Just another reason to get rid of the DH. If Ventura were to bat and take a few 95 mph fastballs in the ribs himself, he might not be so willing to “challenge” hitters. I just wish Manny had connected as solidly as Roughned Odor did on Jose….