MLB’s Other Shohei Otani Problem

When MLB and the Player’s Association agreed to the terms of a new CBA, the most substantial changes came in the rules governing the acquisition of players from other countries. The replacement of the bonus pools with a hard cap on bonus allocations was the big story, but, pretty quickly, people realized that a smaller change — raising the age of players exempt from the bonus pool system from 23 to 25 — could have a major impact on one of the world’s best players.

You probably know about Shohei Otani, the two-way superstar who has become Japan’s best player even though he’s just 22-years-old. Before the new CBA was agreed to, it was fairly widely assumed that Hokkaido would post him after next year, allowing him to come over to play against the best players in the world in Major League Baseball. Because he turns 23 next summer, he’d be free of the bonus pool restrictions, and could negotiate with any team that paid the $20 million posting fee, likely landing a contract between $200 and $300 million when all was said and done.

Now, though, with the age of players included in the bonus pool system raised by two years, Otani has two more years where he would be subject to those rules, dramatically cutting the amount he’d be paid. Under the new rules, the largest bonus pool any team will be allocated is $5.75 million; a team can trade for additional signing bonus allocations, up to 60% of their original pool, so the most any team can spend on international free agents in any given year is $9.2 million. That’s the max Otani could receive, and that’s only if he signed with a team that received a “competitive balance” draft pick, so that would limit him to smaller market franchises. If he wanted to sign with one of the major market teams, he’d top out at $7.6 million.

$250 million or $7-$9 million in guaranteed money? It seems like the obvious move is that Otani will stay in Japan for two more years, then come over when he’s 25 and free to sign for whatever he wants again. By then, he might be worth $350 million. The clear decision, if financially motivated, is to wait.

But since the CBA was signed, there have been some comments made indicating that Otani may not make a financial decision.

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Otani wasn’t quite that direct in his own comments, but reports suggest that perhaps he has already reached an agreement with his NPB team to be posted after next season.

“We settled in a way that my wishes were given priority,” Otani said after the talks. “I am grateful for the club’s support.”

Now, it’s not so easy to see Otani passing up the kinds of guaranteed money he’d get as a free agent to take something like an $8 million signing bonus plus whatever he’d make through the arbitration system for his first six years of MLB service. Even if we make the most aggressive assumptions possible about his potential arbitration payouts, he’d probably be looking at something south of $50 million in salaries before he became a true free agent for the first time, following his age-29 season.

But let’s just go along with the hypothetical for a second. Let’s say that Otani doesn’t mind leaving a couple hundred million in guaranteed money on the table, and he really is willing to come over after next season and go through the bonus pool system. In talking with people with knowledge of the language that will go into the actual contract that the league and the MLBPA will sign, I’ve confirmed that teams will not be allowed to circumvent the bonus rules to treat Otani differently. They can’t give Otani a shorter-term contract with free agency at the end of the deal, like other Japanese veteran free agents often receive. Anything that was seen by MLB as an agreement made to side step the bonus pool limitations would be disallowed.

But it brings up an interesting question; for how long must Otani and the MLB team that signed him stick with the standard pre-arb contract? At what point could the league no longer argue that a long-term extension was a pre-arranged deal designed to circumvent the rules? Because it is no longer unusual for players to sign long-term extensions very early in their careers.

Let’s say, for instance, that Otani’s major league debut went as well as you could possibly imagine; he throws some kind of complete-game shutout, strikes out 15 guys, and launches a home run or two as a batter just for good measure. Minus the home runs, we actually saw something not too different from that when Stephen Strasburg made his MLB debut on June 8th, 2010; he went 7 IP, allowed just 4 hits, didn’t walk anyone, and struck out 14. If the Nationals had started negotiating a new long-term deal with Strasburg immediately after that start, the league wouldn’t have had any leg to stand on to say “nope, you can’t do that.”

So if Otani has some kind of spectacular debut, could the league really say that the team couldn’t have altered their risk assessment, and thought their best move was to give him a long-term deal before his price for an extension went up even more? Would owners really go for the league telling them just how long Otani has to play in the big leagues before a long-term extension would no longer be considered a circumvention of the bonus pools, when that restriction wouldn’t apply to any other player? If the Astros can sign Jon Singleton to an extension before he’s ever played in an MLB game, how could the league forbid whoever signed Otani from giving him a new long-term deal after he’s shown what he can do against MLB talent?

The structure of the deal would have to follow other pre-arb extensions, with Otani continuing to be vastly underpaid for the first few years of his MLB service, with all the real money tacked on at the end of the deal in free agent years bought out. But I don’t know that it would be that hard to structure an offer in a way that gave Otani a large financial guarantee while also following in the footsteps of other pre-arb extensions.

For instance, let’s say a team estimates that Otani will make something like $50 million in his three arbitration years — assuming he’s an exceptional talent who creates value on both sides of the ball — so they spread that money out over the first six years of the contract, giving him salaries that go something like $1M, $4M, $8M, $10M, $12M, $15M. Then, the question becomes how much do you value his free agent years at? Given his talent level and the league’s economic situation, I don’t think it’s crazy to put a $50 million valuation on those years; the top free agents now are getting $35M per year, and that’s for older and worse players who only hit or pitch, plus there’s another six years of inflation to account for.

Of course, the team would have to be able to argue that they got enough of a savings to justify the commitment, so maybe you actually pay out those four years at $45 million apiece. That adds another $180 million in cost to the deal, bringing the total for 10 years to $230 million. Toss in the $8 million or so he gets in a signing bonus, and now, Otani’s been guaranteed something not too terribly different than what the expectation of he would get if he weren’t subject to the bonus pools.

And I just don’t know how the league would police something like this. No one is going to be dumb enough to write any of this down, but it seems pretty easy for the team executives and Otani’s representatives to just talk in hypotheticals about what kind of value they might see in a long-term extension after Otani has proven what he can do in MLB. The league will do whatever they can to make sure there’s no actual guarantee in place, but as long as there’s nothing actually promised, I don’t know what the league could really do.

Of course, in this scenario, Otani’s taking some risk. If he gets to the Majors and isn’t good, then the team wouldn’t have any kind of cover to announce a $230 million extension with a guy struggling through his rookie year. Or, more troubling, if his arm starts hurting, it’s going to be wildly obvious that there was a pre-arranged deal in place if the team announces a long-term extension with a guy who is fighting elbow or shoulder problems. So, Otani would be betting on himself to play well and stay healthy, and if neither of those things happened, the “hypothetical” extension might not come to fruition. It wouldn’t be exactly the same as getting guaranteed money up front for him.

But if Otani doesn’t want to wait two more years, and is confident that he’ll play well and stay healthy enough to make at least a few good starts in the big leagues, I don’t know how MLB can tell him or the team he signs with that they can’t do a long-term extension after he’s shown that he’s going to live up to the hype. Otani can’t be the only player in MLB not allowed to sign a long-term extension. The “circumvention of the rules” clause has to have an expiration date, and it’s not clear to me how that date would be able to carry past his first MLB start, or at least past his first few starts.

And if a team can realistically argue that MLB can’t police the “circumvention of the rules” clause past Otani’s debut, then I don’t know how you keep teams from casually mentioning the kinds of figures they’d be comfortable talking about down the line in negotiations. And it’s hard to imagine that wouldn’t influence Otani’s choice in where to sign, given that everyone is going to be offering essentially the same up-front signing bonus.

Of course, all of this is speculative. We don’t know when Otani is going to come over. We don’t know that he’ll even make it through the 2017 season healthy, since he is a pitcher and all. But if Otani does want to come over after next season, I don’t know how MLB is going to prevent a sign-and-extend-in-a-few-months situation. They can definitely stop it from being a legally binding agreement in the actual contract, but given how prevalent early-career extensions have become, Otani might just be able to arrive in MLB in 2018 and still get a pretty large guaranteed contract not that long after. And while it might look like whoever got him circumvented the signing bonus rules with the extension, I don’t know you that the league could really stop a team from signing a player to a long-term deal once they’re already performing in the big leagues.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

96 Comments
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MoreCowbell
9 years ago

Yankee fans are hoping that Brian Cashman is currently saving a copy of this article to a tablet that he will dump in the Hudson River the day after he signs Otani to his long term extension.

Rols1026
9 years ago

Great article as always, Dave. This will be a really interesting story to follow, especially given the possibilities you just outlined.

exxroxMember since 2026
9 years ago

This is great stuff, Dave. This idea is a real eye opener, and I think a bit of a glimmer of hope for the fans of the game that he might be stateside soon enough after all.

I think this goes to show just how disorganized the CBA negotiations really were. They really didn’t account for, or even realize/consider, any of these implications at the time. Far too much time was wasted negotiating the little crap.

matthewlowe10
9 years ago
Reply to  exxrox

Ha, yeah maybe. That Tony Clark’s statement on the MLBPA homepage has a fat typo in it would lend weight to the idea that they’re disorganized.

But to me it looks more like they were willing to make big concessions regarding foreign players. American born players, what did they concede? Pretty common tactic to divide and weaken a union via breaking it into factions. Manfred and Co. seem to have scored a very big win.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
9 years ago
Reply to  matthewlowe10

Forget divide and conquer … neither the MLBPA nor the owners have any incentive to give money to players not currently in the union.

willl
9 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

Which is crazy, because at one time each and every single member of the MLBPA was being paid slave wages while they toiled in the minors.

scooter262
9 years ago
Reply to  exxrox

I think this points out the fact that no matter what sort of rules are put in place, there are nearly always ways to circumvent them–legally.

RotoholicMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  exxrox

“it’s pretty silly for Major League Baseball to not want to get the best players in the world into baseball as soon as possible.”

It saves the owners a ton of money to be able to delay free agency for 6+ seasons, and the players don’t want young Japanese superstars to be able to bypass that particular concession they are bound to. It could end up saving an MLB owner tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars if Otani is posted and agrees to a contract.

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Or no one actually saves any money if Otani waits until he’s 25, so why not just remove the age limit altogether and make it a blanket pool regardless of age?

This is pretty much the definition of penny wise, pound foolish. MLB is depressing the value of their own brand and by extension the benefit to its members, and the NPB brand reaps the benefits.

strawman
9 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

tbh if they removed the 6+ years of service before free agency they would have to institute a hard cap as well as a more ambitious revenue sharing.

DoyersFan
9 years ago

So assuming, there isn’t some elaborate agreement and Otani basically gets the same offer from all 30 teams.. Has he said which MLB team he’d most like to play for?

abailey
9 years ago

A scenario where a team promises Otani some crazy “after your first start” extension, then doesn’t follow through, would be fascinating.

DBA455
9 years ago
Reply to  abailey

This.

For an extra 2 years – with a substantial arm insurance deal in place with Lloyds (or whomever) to indemnify you against injury – I’m not sure it’s worth the risk.

As a follow-on piece, it would helpful to understand what recourse he would have.
E.G., can a posted player “retire” from MLB and return to the NPB?

DBA455
9 years ago
Reply to  DBA455

The whole thing is also at least vaguely offensive to anyone who believes in a free and open labor market. Which obviously neither the owners (who want to depress salaries) nor the MLBPA (who care only about the established members of the cartel, young played and international ones be damned) do.

strawman
9 years ago
Reply to  DBA455

Common mistake to identify each individual team as being a stand alone business. The MLB is the business. Otani is free to sign with any league that he wants to… The MLB is just where you make the most money.

Unless another league starts to compete (which let’s face it, won’t happen) then foreign and domestic stars are at the mercy of what the MLB’s rules. The only difference between an Otani and an American (let’s say Mike Trout) is that historically Otani would have been able to avoid the MLB draft, prove his value and immediately sign a huge contract without ever having to prove himself in the MLB. Mike Trout on the other hand got his 1st round signing bonus (late first so what 1.5 mill?), work his way through the minors, become productive, AND *typically* perform for three years before getting paid.

It’s just a different route.

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  strawman

Proving oneself at the high school level is completely different from proving oneself in a high level professional league. Traditionally, players coming from NPB are compared to US free agents, not draftees, and contribute much quicker than a draftee.

A comparable scenario would be Otani signing with a US team out of high school.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  strawman

I agree but you have to consider that otani could not get to the Majors earlier because japanese Teams also control a Players rights.

if otani was attending the US draft at 18 he likely would have gone first Overall (or if not almost 100% top5 in the first round). so otani has to wait out several years of japanese control and then again years of MLB control so he is screwed twice.

I think he could have skipped the Japan draft and was considering it but I think there are big repercussions for doing that in Japan which is a very proud and traditional Society (I think then you are banned or at least blackballed for life to Play in NBP).

JaysSaskatchewan
9 years ago
Reply to  DBA455

The MLBPA rejected an international draft even though the owners badly wanted it. That didn’t benefit the current players at all and they could have traded an international draft for further concessions.

willl
9 years ago

The owners came away with a de facto international draft anyway, they just played it so the players could pretend that they succeeded.

The hard cap on signings has the exact same result as an international draft does: depressing expenses paid to foreign players. What does it matter that the players can sign with any team they like, or are obligated to play for the team that drafts them if every team has a specific, finite amount of money to spend. The only difference is that the worst team is not guaranteed to get first dibs.

$300m was spent on amateur international free agents last season. The new CBA ensures it cannot exceed $150m. Over the next 5 years covered by the new CBA- that’s at least $750m less going into the pockets of poor Latin players, and $750m staying in the pockets of 30 rich, white billionaires.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
9 years ago

I think the issue was that the owners didn’t offer enough in return for the international draft so the Union wants to Keep that chip for the next CBA.

dl80Member since 2026
9 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

International draft in exchange for one fewer year before arbitration (and/or free agency) would have a good deal for the MLBPA if they could get it.

So two minimum years, then four arb, then free agency OR three minimum years, two arb, then free agency.

Assuming the league wouldn’t go for that, the union should have at least gotten the service time shenanigans made impossible, even just in exchange for the hard cap on international signings. I’m not sure the union really got much of anything.

willl
9 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

Ask yourself- why do the owners want an international draft?
To exert greater control over and therefore limit spending.

They got exactly that with a hard cap on IFA.

So who cares that MLBPA technically still has that ‘chip’ to use? They gave their real power up when they gave in to the owners’ demands to limit spending.

Crumpled Stiltskin
9 years ago

Does the CBA prevent Otani from signing a minor league contract from which he would be cut immediately (thus making him a free agent)?

Or in lieu of that, signing with an American independent league?

Okay, so playing in the Japanese league, the posting fee would be a major obstacle. But hypothetically if he were from Cuba, would either of these be a plausible way around the conundrum.

*Also, it’s pretty silly for Major League Baseball to not want to get the best players in the world into baseball as soon as possible.

Crumpled Stiltskin
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

How could they prevent him from signing with an independent league?

ackbar7Member since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

But he could finish his NPB contract, come and play for the Long Island Ducks for ~10 games and sign an MLB contract. There isn’t anything preventing that, is there?

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  ackbar7

Why the hell would he do that? By the time his NPB contract is up he would be past age 25.

paperlions
9 years ago
Reply to  ackbar7

His rights are still owned by his NPB club for 5 more years. At that point, he’d be a FA anyway.

His best bet is to just wait until he’s 25 to be posted.

Crumpled Stiltskin
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

Yes, that was why the hypothetical if he was from Cuba. The posting fee is another problem, and one that just can’t be bypassed without major amounts of money being exchanged.

But for future situations like that of Yoan Moncada, where there is no posting fee, might the independent leagues not provide a path toward free agency?

gnomezMember since 2020
9 years ago

“might the independent leagues not provide a path toward free agency”

No. MLB considers players who have only played in indy ball to be amateurs. A player in that situation would either be subject to the draft or international bonus pool until the age of 25.

noeckerrMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

Let’s crowdsource the $20mil. 😉

scooter262
9 years ago
Reply to  noeckerr

I might consider throwing in a couple of bucks. Can I get a discounted ticket to see him when he comes to my town (Boston) in return?

noeckerrMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  noeckerr

Building on this thought, could a couple of regular guys, — let’s just say their names are *Hal* and *Hank* — using their own resources, “incentivize” Nippon-Ham Fighters to let Otani out of his contract to sign with an indy league team?

Pinstripe Wizard
9 years ago
Reply to  noeckerr

C’mon man. Hal and Hank would have nothing to do with it. Always blame the bag man. That’s just good business.

output gap
9 years ago

The Dodgers, Cubs and Giants will be in the IFA penalty box next year. The Yankees and Red Sox have their caps lifted, except if there is any carry-over from the Red Sox IFA ban.

It seems unlikely he’s going to have himself posted with 3 of the top 5-7 markets unable to offer him more than $300k. And if he were to sign with the Cubs or Dodgers for $300k then get a monster extension, there would be HUGE crying foul by small market teams — even though this situation is due to lower-revenue/lower-spending owners trying to cheap off the international markets.

TL:DR, no small market is going to get Otani and when he signs with LA/CHC/SEA/NYY/BOS/whomever, the crying foul will happen but without much economic foundation.

victorvran
9 years ago
Reply to  output gap

While I agree with this line of thought, if he’s willing to pass up the guaranteed 200m+ (or whatever he would get) for 6-9 million to get to MLB 2 years sooner, do we really think he’d be all that concerned with 300k v. 6m-ish?

Obviously, this is all assuming that the rumors of him coming over despite the restrictions are legitimate.

output gap
9 years ago
Reply to  victorvran

If I were him, I’m absolutely picking the franchise I desired most — which I assume will be one of the large market uber talented teams. And if/when he signs with the Cubs or the Dodgers for $300k, then signs a monster extension, there will be grievances filed just like when the Cubs signed Maddon and the MLB won’t have any way to deal with it because low-revenue ownership greed caused this situation to materialize.

We seem to be headed for the result of a large market team getting Otani for less than market value, which ironically hurts the low-revenue teams the most.

TKDCMember since 2016
9 years ago

There are all sorts of handshake deals for signing players from down South before they are old enough to be signed. But this is a different ballgame. You can’t make a handshake deal for $200 million with any hopes that it would likely be honored. Sure, you could listen for clues for what teams might do, but then it is in the interest of every team to boast about how much money they will quickly throw around once he gets to the big leagues. In the end, any contract extension he gets will severely underpay him for 6 years. But then again, is that really (more) unfair? He can be an unrestricted free agent at age 25, which as far as I know is as early as any star player that goes through the draft has ever achieved free agency (Arod; Harper, soon).

backward galaxy
9 years ago

Fascinating thoughts. For a Japanese player who is theoretically as good a hitter as he is a starting pitcher (which Otani may not be for all I know), does it make sense to stop pitching because of the injury risk? Or is big time starting pitcher money just too good? Or is speculating based on a hypothetical injury that may never come just stupid in general?

frangipard
9 years ago

While he made strides this year, he is not nearly as good a hitter as a pitcher. As a OF-only prospect, he’d be marginal.

Likely some teams will lose interest in him if he insists on trying to do both.

dl80Member since 2026
9 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

If he hits well enough on days he pitches, they will find a way to get him in the lineup. If he does hit, he’s actually better off in the AL, as he could DH when he didn’t pitch, with not much added risk to his arm.

rosen380
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Does he have significant platoon splits? If so, even if he isn’t quite a full time OFer for his days off, maybe it would make sense for him to get into at least a couple of games a week?

scotman144Member since 2016
9 years ago

Would the presumably increased amount of endorsement money offset the obviously huge contract value hit he’d take? Also do we know what his lifetime earnings have been so far in Japan? If he’s already made his first ~$10MM aren’t we as fans always saying the dollars are largely irrelevant to quality of life at that point?

scotman144Member since 2016
9 years ago

Let’s say he goes down with TJ in 2016: Couldn’t he still continue to hit/DH? IIRC there are plenty of position players who have put off a needed TJS until the offseason because they can still swing a bat/play positions that don’t require much/any throwing.

ShauncoreMember since 2019
9 years ago
Reply to  scotman144

Seems really like a bad idea if they want him to ever pitch again

scotman144Member since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

I guess that’s the question: could he be successfully doing TJ rehab at the same time as DH’ing so you don’t lose all of his value? I’d imagine he could swing a bat fine while still 6-12 months out from being game ready to pitch.

frangipard
9 years ago
Reply to  scotman144

Maybe in the later stages, but certainly not for 8-10 months after surgery. And DH only, no OF. And you’re really increasing the risk of reinjury.

So, no, you can’t.

scotman144Member since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

Thank you for indulging my absurd hypothetical!

aff10
9 years ago

Just a thought. What happens if you set up an unwritten arrangement and he sucks immediately, causing the team to rethink a long-term investment? (I don’t think he will, but it’s not completely impossible.) I doubt he’d have much recourse to enforce that previous agreement, and he could end up getting losing out on millions than if he waits until he turns 25 and gets that money guaranteed before ever playing in the MLB.

scooter262
9 years ago
Reply to  aff10

If he makes some sort of unwritten / off-the-books agreement, none of it is enforceable anyway, as far as I can see.

Sinnycal
9 years ago

Can we all agree in principle that it’s patently absurd for twentysomething professional Japanese players to be lumped with the 16-year-old July 2nd kids and subjected to the same IFA rules?

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  Sinnycal

It is absurd, but we live in an absurd world.

Also pretty poor optics, essentially declaring the reigning MVP of an NPB league to be an amateur.

scotman144Member since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Watch the BBWAA give him “rookie” of the year too…..

TKDCMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Sinnycal

In principle it is absurd that the reigning NL MVP is lumped in with the likes of third-year utility players.

It makes no sense to let one small class of players be bona fide free agents at age 23 while everyone else is making $500,000 or maybe pre-arb 1 if they’re lucky.

Pirates HurdlesMember since 2024
9 years ago

Oh, don’t worry, there will be a loophole that allows, NYY, BOS or LAD to sign him for big money. Bank on it.

fjtorres
9 years ago

This scenario wouldn’t apply just to Otani.
It can apply to most of the top-tier international FAs, the ones getting bundle deals, for example.

scotman144Member since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

How this potentiality didn’t come up while they discussed this half-baked new CBA provision is beyond me.

frangipard
9 years ago
Reply to  scotman144

What makes you think it didn’t?

Bartolo Cologne
9 years ago

Couldn’t the team that signs Otani just non-tender him after the first season and then sign him to a new free agent contract? He could be non-tendered since he’d be on the 40-man roster.

dl80Member since 2026
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

The releasing or the resigning? If he is allowed to be released, could a different team sign him? If he can’t be released, does he have to be on the 40-man for the length of the contract?

What a poorly thought out agreement.

ogZayYsj3r7CGsz
9 years ago

Could they sign him to be the manager who suits up to play like in the old days? Or pay him to be a front office executive? Or maybe if they were really desperate, sign him up to be the mascot and then try the Air Bud defense, “Ain’t no rule says a dog can’t play basketball.”

gnomezMember since 2020
9 years ago

“Well, Mr. MLBPA Official, he’s making league minimum as a player, just 5x the highest-paid manager’s salary to be Assistant to the Assistant Hitting Coach.”

Pinstripe Wizard
9 years ago
Reply to  gnomez

Given the way some teams in the MLB hit these days, maybe they should increase the salaries of their assistant hitting coaches.

AndyMember since 2026
9 years ago

Dave, the posting fee is also an issue, no? I’ve not heard one word anywhere about how a posting fee is calculated into these new restrictions. And if not, then the posting fee is also a means to circumvent this.

gnomezMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Aren’t there already rules in place that prevent the player from getting a percentage of the posting fee?

phoenix2042Member since 2016
9 years ago

Maybe this discussion has occurred elsewhere but…

How will he be used as a “two way player”?

Will he be a regular NL starter (batting during his starts) and occasionally pinch hit?
Will he play in the field when he isn’t pitching? But then he will have to make throws in the field during “rest days” between starts and I’m sure teams don’t want that.
Will he be an AL starter who DHs in his non-pitching days?

Will he be Babe Ruth? Can we call him Babe? Please?

Anonymous
9 years ago
Reply to  phoenix2042

AL SP who DHs. He will not play a position for an NL team.

dl80Member since 2026
9 years ago
Reply to  phoenix2042

“It was signed by some lady named Baby Otani or something.” “The Samurai of Swat?” “The Emperor Hero-hitto?”

John Autin
9 years ago

This is a tangent, but I question the premise of a free-agent Otani getting a deal “between $200 and $300 million.” Granted, the author knows something of MLB executives’ thinking, while I know zip. But that notion seems to understate both the discount rate for JPPL stats to MLB, and several unknowns about Otani, starting with the fact that he has just one partial season of hitting that would make anyone think he could hit here.

There have been 3 Japanese players in MLB of whom we could posit a $200-million deal and not get laughed out of town: Ichiro, Darvish and Tanaka. Ichiro in MLB was a good hitter; his .828 OPS in his MLB prime (first 4 years) was .115 below his JPPL career. It took the rest of his game to make him a great player. If Otani hits like Ichiro as a DH, that’s not adding much value. Darvish and Tanaka both had much longer and better track records in Japan than Otani. And both are just below the elite tier of MLB pitchers; neither has a 6-bWAR season in MLB yet, of which there have been 28 in the last 5 years by 18 different pitchers.

As for the two-way angle, I’ll believe it when I see it in MLB. Even Babe Ruth’s 2 years as a true two-way regular totaled less WAR than his last 2 years mainly pitching, and far less than any 2 typical years after he stopped pitching. No live-ball player has been both a good pitcher and a good hitter (compared to position players). No live-ball player has pitched 20 games and had 200 PAs in a season.

Otani’s a great prospect, but he’s still just a prospect. A deal for $200-$300 million sounds like pie in the sky.

TKDCMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Tanaka got $155 million and an opt out. This is 4 years later, he’s 3 years younger, he’s a 102 max fastball pitcher, and potential offense as a cherry. I see $200 million as a conservative floor with one more similar year. $300 million seems closer to a good guess than a ceiling (I’d say $350 million).

MikeD
9 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

The age advantage is not quite what you stated. Tanaka was 25 his first MLB season. Otani will be 23, turning 24 midway through 2018, if indeed he comes over. He’ll only be 16 months younger than Tanaka was when entering MLB.

I can see Otani approaching $200 million if he was allowed to be a free agent, but I have a difficult time seeing $300-$350 million. The latter would give him the highest total contract ever in MLB history, eclipsing Stanton’s $325 million, Cabrera’s $248-292 million (depending on if the extension is only counted, or the extension plus the remainder of his prior deal). A-Rod has the next two highest deals, and he’s now retired.

Keep in mind that Tanaka was a more accomplished pitcher when he arrived, going 24-0 with a 1.27 ERA in 212 innings in his final season, compared to Otani’s 10-4 and 1.86 ERA in 140 innings last season. Otani throws harder, but Tanaka was regarded as a more skilled “pitcher” with a longer resume, despite his youth. Would Otani more than double the contract of Tanaka four years later and be given the highest total contract in MLB history before throwing a pitch? I don’t see it.

Last, no one should be assuming he’ll make more because he’ll be a two-way player. Some team might give him the opportunity to show he can hit, but no one will pay him for that skill. He’s going to be signed as a MLB pitcher.

My bet is he doesn’t come over in 2018. We’ll see him in 2020, when he turns 25/26, and when he will score a huge MLB deal. Just not $300-$350 million huge.

TKDCMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Also, “prospect” is bullshit.

John Autin
9 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Until they do it here, any JPPL player is no more than a prospect, for MLB purposes. That’s just a logical attitude based on past performance of such players.

dl80Member since 2026
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Until they prove it in MLB, they are basically all prospects. Except Mike Trout. He put up a 10-WAR year as a five-year-old. He killed it in nap time, snack time, AND sharing.

John Autin
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Trout actually makes my point perfectly. He is so far one of the best players in MLB history — yet he was the 25th draft pick in 2009. Seven full seasons later, just 4 guys from that 1st round have produced 10 bWAR, with Strasburg the runner-up at 18.2. Six guys picked before Trout have not even played in MLB. Scouting is just the first-level filter for MLB potential.

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

He’s only had 1 special season of hitting, but this is his 3rd straight year as an elite pitcher now.

MikeD
9 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

The hitting part is overblown. If he was just a position player, there would not be any great buzz about him as a hitter. Some intrigue because of his age, but MLB teams wouldn’t be offering him $200 million to come play in the States. He’s getting the buzz and the interest because of his pitching arm. The fact that he can hit in Japan makes for a nice story, but scouts aren’t drooling over the bat. Doesn’t mean he might not be an okay hitter, but to be a RF’er or a DH, he better be elite, and the early indications are his bat would not be elite in MLB. His pitching arm is a different story.

There are no doubt MLB pitchers who would be decent hitters if they had been allowed to develop that skill through the minors. They weren’t. Once drafted, MLB teams make players who potentially have two-way skills focus on either pitching or hitting. It’s extremely difficult to do both, and it would likely hamper development, and increase injuries. Otani has been allowed to develop his hitting skills, but still not on the MLB level. The concern about development and injury will be there. Teams won’t take that risk when they’ll be paying him $25M+ each year to pitch.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  MikeD

the hitting part is overblown but the guys you mentioned were either much older or had multiple opt Outs. maybe someone could sign otani to 10/220 with 2 opt out Dates with without opt out clauses it would easily cost 300+.

tanaka was more polished but stuff matters and otani is not super wild either at 3 BB/9. also tanaka got 7/155 which actually is over 200M per 10 years.

otani basically has sydergaard stuff at Age 23 he would easily command 300+.

300 over 10 years is not that expensive either for an elite Player. there is of course considerable injury risk and there is the Adaptation risk but 300M is worth about 37 WAR. that is a steep Task but it is doable for a guy with his Kind of stuff.

there simply aren’t any 23 year old free agents and the next under 27 yo top FAs (quite a rare Thing) will easily exceed 300 and probably 400M (harper, machado).

John Autin
9 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

You and others speak as if Otani’s youth is purely a plus. It’s not. His youth is why he has only 518 IP and a high of 161 IP.

All the names mentioned as comps for Otani are now MLB veterans. It’s simply not possible to think of them as blank slates, or guess what they might have commanded as free agents before they ever pitched in MLB.

But let’s take Stephen Strasburg, a.k.a “the best pitching prospect ever.” If you had signed him for 7 years and $200 million before his MLB debut, at age 21, you would have gotten about 20 WAR (splitting the difference between fWAR and bWAR). That’s not a win for the team. And Strasburg is hardly a bust.

As for scouting Otani’s stuff … please. Lucas Giolito used to hit 100 mph and was a consensus top-5 prospect before last year. One little taste of MLB exposure knocked him down to part of a package that landed Adam Eaton.

rosen380
9 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

” but 300M is worth about 37 WAR.”

That ignores that the $/win will be higher for the later years. Figuring 5% inflation in $/win, 10y/$300M works out to “only” 30 WAR

dl80Member since 2026
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

If Otani hits like Ichigo, that’s a ton of extra value. Ichiro was about a 120wRC+ those first four years. We can’t give Otani credit for Ichiro’s baserunning or defense, assuming he DH’s. This year, Pujols was worth about 1 win while primarily DHing and being awful on the basepaths and only a 111 wRC+.

Even if we say Otani wouldn’t pay as much as Pujols, that adds at least a win to his WAR total if he hits like Ichiro. That’s about $8 million of value.

John Autin
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Your oWAR figures work if he hits like prime Ichiro or recent Pujols AND gets 600 PAs. That’s absurdly speculative, since no live-ball player has ever pitched 20 games and had 200 PAs in a season. Given all the other uncertainty around his MLB hitting potential, it makes no sense to project any added value.

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

I’m trying to wrap my head around how Otani would hit like a strawberry.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
9 years ago

Actually the owners also save Money if otani doesn’t come. of course MLB is missing a great Talent but as Long as no other Team has otani it is no Problem for them.

if otani Comes it is a big gain for one owner and no gain (actually a loss) for 29 other ownwers. A 3% Chance to get otani is not a good incentive for an owner.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
9 years ago

Maybe a Club could sign him for 300K but give him a second Job like a groundskeeper for 20M per year:).

vmx
9 years ago

Yes, MLB really screwed up by not thinking about a scenario where a team might casually mention that it could possibly someday give a big extension. I guess it’s back to square one for them.

Moltar
9 years ago

“They can’t give Otani a shorter-term contract with free agency at the end of the deal, like other Japanese veteran free agents often receive.”

Is this part of the new CBA? IIRC Cespedes had a clause at the end of his initial 4 year deal with Oakland that he had to be released at the end of the deal so that he would be a true free agent. I’d have to think that given his talent a team would be willing to sign him to a similar one year contract even with no guarantee of keeping him long term.

Long Suffering Guardians FanMember since 2016
9 years ago

Baseball Reference states that Otani appeared in 104 games as a hitter in 2016 for the Fighters. Does anyone know how I can find out what position(s) he played while hitting?

John Autin
9 years ago

Look under “Fielding.” Only “P” is shown for the last 2 years, so he only batted as a pitcher, DH or PH.

Species
9 years ago

Isn’t Otani limited to $7-8ish million a year in NPB anyway? If so, take your chances earlier in your life (and at the top of your game), bet on yourself, and sign the ‘circumvention’ extension! Done!

vmx
9 years ago
Reply to  Species

Or wait a year?

cs3
9 years ago

This is one of the most absurb rules MLB has ever come up with. Why the **** should his former Japanese team make more money off a player signing with an MLB team, than the player has a right to make himself?

BretwkMember since 2025
9 years ago

I am frankly outraged by the move by MLB to push back the clock on Japanese players. MLB should be focused on having the best baseball players in the world playing in MLB. That should be the priority when negotiating a CBA. Not forcing one of the best players in the world to stay in Japan for 2 more years.

I guess the article makes sense, I am just so frustrated that I may need to wait longer (he already should be in MLB) to see Otani play in MLB that I have trouble caring about how he may circumvent the rules.

Also what about the next Darvish, Tanaka, or Kuroda. They are all great MLB pitchers, and we are going to have to wait even longer to see the next crop of players come to MLB because of this dumb rule.

God damnit I am so frustrated…

Chill
9 years ago

Otani is not coming over until he’s 25. No way he leaves that amount of money on the table. The mlbpa certainly approved of this new deal. Why should American born players be under team control for 6 years while foreign born players can come over at 23 and make bank? Raising the age to 25 puts both groups of players on equal financial footing. 25 is about the earliest an american born player can become a free agent. Now that’s true of foreign born players as well. This isn’t going to change for Otani no matter how out of hand the hype gets. That out of hand hype is also why there’s no way an under the table arrangement will work. Too much publicity. Otani will have to be happy to be a two way player in Japan for the time being.