Okay, Now the 2017 Mariners Are Interesting
On Monday, I wrote about how the Mariners were transitioning back to a speed-and-defense team, looking to cover up the weaknesses of their pitching staff with elite athletes in the outfield. In comparing them to the Royals of recent years, I ended the piece with a little bit of skepticism.
And, of course, another part of the recent Royals success was some magic, as they significantly outperformed their BaseRuns win expectations. If the speed-and-defense plan was a primary reason for that success, then perhaps the Mariners can copy some of that, but if the bullpen was the key to helping the Royals to win more close games than expected, then that’s probably bad news for Seattle’s ability to recreate that part of the formula. And that’s why we currently have the Mariners projected as an 82-80 team heading into 2017, putting them in line with other fringe contenders who need a bunch of things to go right to snag a playoff spot.
The outfield defense is probably going to be great, and the team will run the bases a lot better than they have in recent years. But winning with a thin line-up and a mediocre rotation isn’t the easiest thing in the world, and especially with a bullpen of one good guy and a bunch of random arms, the Mariners probably can’t count on repeating the Royals success. But given the moves of this winter, that’s clearly what they’re trying for.
48 hours later, and that description of the Mariners pitching staff is already obsolete, because this morning, Jerry Dipoto made two more trades, and in the process, made the team’s stockpile of arms a lot more interesting than they were on Monday.
Arriving in Seattle are left-handed starter Drew Smyly and right-handed reliever Shae Simmons, at the cost of one of the team’s few remaining quality prospects, and a few pieces of their farm system depth, which is quickly dwindling. But while moves like this continue to raise questions about the team’s long-term sustainability, the win-now Mariners now look a lot more likely to actually win now.
Smyly’s the big piece here, even if that seems weird to write about a guy who put up a 119 ERA-/108 FIP-/106 xFIP- last year. After holding batters to a .233/.290/.395 line through his first four seasons in MLB, that jumped to .253/.307/.456 last year, with his fly ball tendencies finally turning into a full-fledged home run problem. Among qualified starters last year, only James Shields, Josh Tomlin, and Jered Weaver gave up more home runs per nine innings, and Smyly fits right in with that group of pitchers who live up in the zone with mediocre fastballs, and get pounded if the location isn’t perfect.
So why get excited about a guy who throws 90 and regularly gets whiplash watching balls get crushed into the seats? Well, while home runs aren’t fun to watch, Smyly does a lot of stuff well when he manages to keep the ball in the park.
Despite non-premium stuff, Smyly misses a lot of bats. His 78% contact rate puts him in the same category as guys like Jon Lester, Carlos Martinez, and Justin Verlander, while he’s just a half-tick behind David Price, whom he was traded for a couple of years ago. There just aren’t many left-handed starters who miss this many bats with consistency.
And he doesn’t miss bats by just living out of the zone. Smyly also rarely walks anyone, and his control of the strike zone puts him in the company of pitchers with significantly better reputations. For reference, here’s every starter with a K%-BB% between 15-17% over the last three years, minimum 350 innings pitched in the rotation.
| Name | IP | K-BB% |
|---|---|---|
| Johnny Cueto | 675 | 17.0% |
| Gerrit Cole | 462 | 16.7% |
| Matt Shoemaker | 415 | 16.4% |
| Felix Hernandez | 591 | 16.4% |
| Cole Hamels | 617 | 16.2% |
| Drew Smyly | 388 | 16.2% |
| Justin Verlander | 567 | 16.0% |
| Ian Kennedy | 565 | 15.9% |
| Jason Hammel | 510 | 15.8% |
| Hisashi Iwakuma | 507 | 15.7% |
| Collin McHugh | 543 | 15.7% |
| Kyle Hendricks | 448 | 15.7% |
| Mike Fiers | 404 | 15.5% |
| Jose Quintana | 614 | 15.4% |
| Tyson Ross | 397 | 15.4% |
| Phil Hughes | 419 | 15.2% |
| Jordan Zimmermann | 503 | 15.2% |
| Jake Odorizzi | 525 | 15.1% |
Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy, and Jason Hammel are a nice reminder that controlling the strike zone isn’t everything, but most of the pitchers on that list are pretty good. Smyly is probably closer in value to Kennedy than he is to a guy like Hamels or Cueto, but it’s worth remembering that if he manages to keep the ball in the yard more often, there’s some legitimate upside here.
And Smyly’s fly ball ways aren’t all downside. In addition to helping him miss bats without dominant stuff, he’s also one of the game’s premier pop-up generators; only Marco Estrada generated infield flies at a higher rate than Smyly did last year among AL pitchers. This combination of strike zone dominance and pop-ups can be pretty lethal, and Estrada is a good reminder of what can happen if the home run problem changes course a bit.
In his last year in Milwaukee, Estrada gave up 1.73 HR/9, and was being written off as a guy without good enough stuff to pitch in a big league rotation. But over the last two years in Toronto, he got his HR/FB rate down to 9.3%, and as a result, he had two of the best years of his career. Smyly won’t run a .225 BABIP like Estrada did the last two years, but as an extreme flyball guy who gets a lot of infield flies and is moving to a larger ballpark on the west coast, there are reasons to think Smyly can run lower-than-average BABIPs, and combined with his control of the strike zone, that would make Smyly an above-average starter.
Steamer has Smyly projected for +2.5 WAR in 164 innings, while ZIPS came in at +2.0 in 143 innings, so both projections have Smyly as a quality pitcher when he’s on the mound. There are definitely durability concerns, given that he missed most of 2015 with shoulder problems and chose to rehab rather than have surgery, but a healthy Drew Smyly is a pretty good starting pitcher. And he’s replacing close-to-replacement-level arms, bumping Ariel Miranda or Chris Heston from the rotation, and hopefully reducing the team’s need to count on Yovani Gallardo, whose starts can now be skipped when off-days allow it. Swapping in Smyly for the team’s back-end arms is probably something close to a two-win upgrade.
And after adjusting our depth charts to account for these acquisitions, those two wins have pushed the Mariners projected record from 82-80 to 84-78. This still isn’t an elite team, but those two wins now push Seattle to the fourth-best projected record in the AL, according to Steamer’s forecasts. They’re still well behind the big three of Boston, Cleveland, and Houston, but adding Smyly to the rotation at least puts them in the mix with everyone else chasing those teams.
And that’s without factoring Simmons into this. While acquiring Mallex Smith to flip him for Smyly seems to be the primary motivation for the deal with Atlanta, the Mariners picked up another power arm for their bullpen, and if Simmons can stay healthy, he could be a significant asset as well; Steamer now projects him as the team’s second best reliever. A big part of the Royals success was finding lottery ticket arms to turn into quality bullpen pieces, and if Simmons is the team’s Luke Hochevar, that could go a long way to shoring up one of the team’s remaining weaknesses.
When I looked at the Mariners on Monday, I saw a team with an average-ish offense and a potentially great outfield defense, but a weak rotation and a questionable bullpen. With Smyly in the rotation and Simmons potentially in relief, both parts of the pitching staff have been improved, and you can now see a playoff-caliber pitching staff without squinting too hard, especially when you factor in the help these guys will get from their teammates.
Drew Smyly isn’t an ace, and the Mariners added two more high-risk players to a team that already had a lot of risk, but this team now looks like their playoff hopes are more than just hope-a-bunch-of-things-go-right. With another quality starter and a potential quality reliever, plus a solid group of position players, the Mariners look like contenders now.
As Eric Longenhagen will note in his post on what the team traded away, these improvements didn’t come for free. The organization has pushed in a lot of long-term value in order to make short-term improvements. But now, with Smyly around, they look improved enough to be somewhat optimistic about their chances next year. The long-term questions only got larger today, but in the short-term, this is starting to look like a team that could make some noise in 2017.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
One of my favorite things about Smyly is that none of his pitches break away from lefthanded hitters. http://pitchfx.texasleaguers.com/charts/gen/5927672016010120170110AAAAAmovement.png
Wow. What is he doing with his slider?
Brooksbaseball says he has a cutter, change, and curve, and their velocity differences make sense for those. Comparing, your graph’s green dots are Brooks’ curve, thrown 75 mph. As a curve it’s still weird motion!
My best explanation: He has an extreme over-the-top release and with the release/spin of the slider, it causes it to slightly break into lefthanded hitters. Derek Holland does the same thing with his slider.
In Jerry we trust.
Yo Dave, why don’t you like a Vogelbach/Valencia platoon? Or even a Martin and Valencia platoon in LF? You contended that the Mariners could struggle offensively this year in your last article, but I don’t exactly see it. Cruz, Cano, Seager, Segura, Zunino, and Vogelbach/Valencia should each outperform offensively the average player at their position (and Cruz, Seager, and Cano will far surpass the avg). Meanwhile, Haniger has shown good walk rates, decent k rates, and good power throughout the minors and majors (only his babip was disappointing last year, despite a 37% hard hit rate). Dyson and Martin might be below average offensive centerfielders but they are not so far below the average that their baserunning abilities couldn’t bring them to average or slightly above (this is especially true in the case of Dyson, not necessarily in the case of Martin). Honestly, it seems to me like the Mariners should be quite good offensively this year. And pretty good defensively. And dang good in the bullpen. And pretty dang solid in the rotation. They’ve got a good shot at a Wild Card spot!
Half the dudes have just as good a chance as underperforming the league average as they do overperforming it. Zunino is had a good year in a small sample in 2016 but had a ghastly 47 wRC+ in 2015. Steamer projects him to put a 91 wRC+. So that’s one guy. Vogelbach is projected to put up a 105 wRC+ which is a pretty aggressive projection for a dude with 13 career plate appearances. League average for first baseman was 108 wRC+. He was good hitter in the minors I get that. But to expect him to put something in the 120 wRC+ range, which is what it’ll take for him to be considered an above average hitter at first? I’ll take the under. Steamer isn’t buying Segura’s breakout and neither am I. And then there’s Martin and Dyson who Seattle would sign for league average offense in a nanosecond. You’ve got Valencia who will mash lefties and the big three guys. It’s not a particularly good offense on paper. It can be average-ish which should be enough if the defense is as advertised and the pitching holds up.
Steamer has Segura projected for a 94 wrc+ which is above avg for a SS. That’s without entirely buying into the very real improvements in his soft and hard hit rates last year. He improved his hard hit rate by 10 percentage points and knocked 10 percentage points off his soft hit rate. I don’t expect him to put up a 126 wrc+ again, but he’ll be better than the avg SS offensively (plus you gotta factor in his excellent baserunning). Did you know he finished the season having three straight months with an ISO over 200? As for Vogelbach, we’re talking about a guy who is projected for a 12% walk rate despite only having those 13 mlb plate appearances. That is how “good” he was in the minors. His k rates in the minors were also pretty impressive, and I don’t have any problem seeing him beat Steamer’s k% projection (especially if he only platoons against righties). Ditto the ISO and BABIP projections. The guy has always had extra power potential. Put him in a Valencia platoon at 1B and bam you easily breeze past that 108 wrc+ average. Then you’ve got Haniger who I think will be much better than league average offensively, and Zunino, who is admittedly a high variance player, but one that has the benefit of playing at a position with very low offensive expectations. Dyson and Martin are weak, but aren’t as bad as some would think once baserunning is factored in (and a potential platoon with Valencia if Vogelbach is fine against lefties). Honestly, I don’t see how anyone could contend that they’re gonna have trouble scoring runs next year.
Also, even if Zunino is below avg for a catcher they have Carlos Ruiz, who has almost always been above average offensively for a catcher! Who cares if Ruiz is old?! The dude walks and doesn’t strike out. That combo creates a very high floor!
So Mariners acquire 2 SPers who allowed 48 HR in 293 IP last year. They must be betting on the ball being dejuiced cause defense cant catch HR
It absolutely makes sense for the Mariners to be pushing their chips to the center of the table with their aging core, but I’d be worried about their starting pitching depth. Lots of injury risk in the rotation and shaky options if injuries pop up is not a comforting combination.
DiPoto might be tasked with winning now and unafraid to make moves, but he left the Angels’ minor league system completely bereft of talent. During his Mariners’ tenure, the only notable guy brought in has been Leonys Martin, while Brad Miller and Mark Trumbo were shipped out for little. Meanwhile, the farm has gotten significantly worse. The Mariners are going to be an above-average team for 2 years, then significantly worse afterwards.
The only guy is Leonys? How about the large amount of MLB ready interesting players he’s gotten in Ben Gamel/Heredia/Haniger/Vogelbach? Not to mention guys like Smyly and Segura. Will all of those younger guys have successful careers, probably not, but to say the only notable guy brought back was Martin is not close to accurate.
I’d say all of them have had major injuries (Paxton, Smyly) or are prone to regression/aging (Felix, Iwakuma, Gallardo). For a team with an aging core, this is really high-risk and it’s understandable why Dipoto’s going all in. If it all blows up in ’17 and/or ’18, the M’s might have no choice but to rebuild…
Ownership obviously dictates a lot of strategy and I’m sure Dipoto told it that he could make the team a contender. However, he turned Trumbo into Adam Lind last year, traded a cost-controlled, high-octane reliever (Smith) for a junk SP (Miley), and traded for an ineffective old reliever that he subsequently dumped after half a year (Benoit). Then he traded another young pitcher (Montgomery) for a platoon 1B to replace Lind (Vogelbach). These moves seem more reactionary then part of a sound process.
I would argue that this not only tightened up the rotation and need for a right-handed power reliever, but it also addressed the need for a LHRP who could give them a solid inning or two, which they now have by default, as Miranda should move to the pen.
These upgrades certainly did come at a price, but we’ve seen the near-ready depth added in the process as well, essentially swapping single A prospects (for the most part) for AAA and Major League talent. Pitchers such as Povse, Pazos, and Whalen serve as legitimate examples of decent minor leaguers brought in.
There’s even a few interesting arms off the 40.
The 2017 Seattle Mariners are about as interesting as a dance at an old folks home.
Their 5 projected starters combined for 5.4 WAR last year; half from Iwakuma’s 2.6, beguiling a 1.33 WHIP and opponents’ OPS of .776. Additionally, the quintet missed a lot of starts/innings, which the M’s don’t have the proper depth to adequately replace. They got a ridiculous 12 WAR combined from their age-34 2B and age-36 DH; they’ll be lucky to get 7-8 WAR out of those two in 2017. Furthermore, their win total was aided by the ineptness of the Angels and A’s.
But in reality, this seems to be a team with a weak and shallow pitching staff that is highly dependent on 2 aging players for its offense.
The AL East featured a Rays team decimated by injuries. Cleveland had Chicago and Minnesota to beat up on. Washington had the Phillies and the Braves, The Cubs had the Brewers and Reds, the Dodgers had the Diamondbacks and Padres…are you following?
Arguing weak divisional competition isn’t very convincing (especially with the Rangers and Astros in the mix), nor is blasting consistently solid players and ignoring a clearly improved depth chart. Starters such as Heston, Miranda, Weber, and ready/near-ready pospects, such as Whalen, Povse, and Moore, all serve as solid depth.
The whole point of adding Smyly and Gallardo was to get more innings out of their rotation. It shouldn’t be hard to see how this team has thickened up. But if you’re bent on believing they haven’t, well, good luck finding company.
dance at an old folks home > your comment
the cubs are also a Team like that (great defense) but they also have elite pitching and hitting:).
BTW di poto now Looks like a farm System destructor (first angels now mariners) but I think win now is not always a bad Thing. People love the future but even the future becomes the past at some Point and a Young Team doesn’t have an unlimited window either. it is not guaranteed that you can build a good Team around the next wave of prospects.
sometimes it is better to try to milk the current core and worry about a rebuild later, even an empty farm can become pretty good with 3-4 years of intensive tanking and trading away what still has value (not always easy if you are old and expensive – that is what saved preller in his ill attempted try to compete, the guys he got still had value and he thus could quickly turn his bad farm into a very good one again).
what is not good is going all in when you are not really good. if you try to compete and you still Need 7-10 wins of pythagoran luck it is not good Business (although that can happen of course- see 2016 rangers).
so di poto basically has to make the Evaluation if he can better compete now or in 3-5 years.
I fail to see how the Mariners bullpen is a weakness. They project as the 7th best bullpen in the depth charts, with almost no contribution from interesting guys like Tony Zych, Dan Altavilla, Shae Simmons, and Thyago Vieira.
That’s a strange OF to be contending with. Is Dyson going to play every day? What about Leonys? No Guti back this year?
Smyly is not going to a “larger ballpark”. In fact, since they moved the fences in at Safeco, it is much easier to hit it out of Safeco compared to Tampa Bay. The ballpark change hurts him.