On Jeff Samardzija and Trade Value
The White Sox deal for Jeff Samardzija still hasn’t been officially announced, but everyone is acting as if it’s a done deal. Kenny Williams is openly talking about trying to sign Samardzija to an extension, and at this point, it seems like an announcement could easily come before I finish writing this post. The deal is expected to be centered around infielder Marcus Semien, with a couple of prospects heading to Oakland as well.
Update: the official deal is Samardzija and Michael Ynoa for Semien, Chris Bassitt, Josh Phegley, Rangel Ravelo.
As has often been the case when a premium player gets traded lately, the perception of the deal seems to be slanted towards the buyer of the trade. Jeff Samardzija is really good, and while he’s only under control for one more year, it’s one cheap year with an exclusive chance to sign him long term. Or, failing that, the right to make him a qualifying offer at the end of the season and get a draft pick if he leaves via free agency.
And realistically, with starting pitchers, fewer years of team control can actually be described as fewer years of risk, and can actually be a feature rather than a bug. The White Sox might only be trading for Samardzija’s 2015 season, but the flip side of that coin is they’re not on the hook for his 2016-2021 seasons if he blows out his elbow. For franchises that have been burned by giving out big contracts to starting pitchers, Samardzija represented something like the best of both worlds.
And yet, at the same time that multiple teams were falling all over themselves to give Jon Lester $150 million, Samardzija was traded primarily for a lower ceiling middle infielder who was seen as a back-end Top 100 prospect at best, and has probably seen his stock fall a little bit with inconsistent MLB performance since. Marcus Semien and some stuff is not exactly an overwhelming return, and certainly seems to be less than what the Phillies are seeking in return for Cole Hamels, for instance. So, did we overrate Samardzija’s trade value, or did the A’s make a bad deal here?
The easy answer to that question is to just look at what Samardzija cost the A’s to acquire a few months ago and decide that the A’s didn’t get enough in return. After all, the same pitcher cost them Addison Russell in July, and Marcus Semien is no Addison Russell. But while Jeff Samardzija himself hasn’t changed in the last few months, his trade value has taken a nosedive, because instead of buying two playoff runs, the White Sox are only buying one. Additionally, they’re buying Samardzija in a market where teams have a plethora of alternatives, while the A’s bought Samardzija when there weren’t any quality free agents to sign.
Back in August, I looked at the cost of buying wins at the trade deadline, and my back-of-the-envelope calculations suggested that prices may be as high as double what they were the previous winter. Samardzija himself is both less valuable now than he was in July, and the market price for acquiring talent is less than it is at midseason, so we can’t simply say that the A’s should have gotten a similar return to what they gave up few months ago.
So let’s try to quantify what Samardzija’s trade value might actually have been. Given the prices being floated for Lester, it seems that the going rate for an elite starting pitcher is probably in the $8 million to $9 million per win range. Samardzija conservatively projects as a +3 WAR pitcher for 2015, though you could argue for something closer to +4 WAR if you buy into his 2014 performance as legitimate improvement rather than career year. What’s the market rate for one year of a pitcher at this level? Those price estimates would suggest something in the range of $25 to $35 million on a one year deal; the latter seems more realistic, given what Lester’s about to sign for.
And that doesn’t even include the value of the qualifying offer, which adds another $5 to $15 million in value, depending on how aggressively you value draft picks. That leaves us with a combined value of somewhere in the range of $30 to $50 million. Let’s split the difference and just call it $40 million. We don’t see those kinds of salaries because teams would rather borrow from the future than hit up their owners for that kind of cash on a one year outlay, but given the amount of money in the game and the lack of risk that a one year deal brings, it’s a justifiable salary.
Samardzija is actually due $9-$10 million for 2015, so he brought about $30 million in additional value to the table. That’s a lot, certainly, but we can be fairly certain that teams value their elite prospects at more than that amount. The rumored price tag for Yoan Moncada, for instance, is in the $60-$80 million range, and that’s with all the extra risk that comes with evaluating an international player who hasn’t played in the states yet. The best prospects currently in the minors probably have a market value north of $100 million at this point.
So Samardzija wasn’t bringing back Addison Russell, or anything close to it. Not in the winter, when free agent alternatives exist, and not with just one playoff run left. So is Marcus Semien worth anything close to $30 million by himself? Maybe.
If you think he’s a league average second baseman right now, as Steamer projects him to be, then it’s actually a pretty easy argument to make. After all, Yasmany Tomas — who seems to project as roughly a league average outfielder — just got $68 million in guaranteed money from the Diamondbacks, and that contract included a fourth-year opt-out, so if he hits his upside, it really turns into $36 million for four years and then the D’Backs lose him to free agency. Semien’s skillset won’t be valued the same as Tomas’ right-handed power, but we have a very recent example of a team betting big on a 24 year old with no big league track record who doesn’t project as a superstar.
And while Semien’s skills may be valued less than Tomas’ skills, the contract terms are certainly far more favorable. Essentially, Semien is signed to a one year, $500,000 contract with five team options beyond that. If he plays well and they keep him through all five arbitration years, he’s probably going to make somewhere in the range of $20 to $30 million through his team controlled years, so to be worth $30 million in value above his paychecks, he’d have to be worth $50 to $60 million over those six years.
$10 million per year currently buys you Jason Hammel, Billy Butler, Nick Markakis, or Andrew Miller. Each of those four project for something like +1 to +2 WAR players in 2015, and each project to get worse as their contracts go forward. Is it unreasonable to expect Semien to be better than any of those four in 2015, or to improve as he reaches his prime? Steamer thinks he’s likely a +2 WAR player for 2015, on par or better than Asdrubal Cabrera, who the crowd projected for $33 million over three years. If an aging Cabrera is worth 3/$33M, is it really absurd to suggest that Semien would have a market value of 6/$50M?
As I noted in the piece about star player trade value last week, it seems like there’s currently a disconnect between the public and the teams themselves about the value of mid-level talents. If you think it’s an easy task to find capable +1 to +2 WAR players who can fill holes and perform reasonably well, then this trade makes no sense, because Marcus Semien would have little value. But Major League teams clearly do not think that it’s easy to find above-replacement-level pieces, because they’re paying a mint to get low-upside role players this winter.
Marcus Semien and some stuff feels like a light return for Jeff Samardzija, just like Drew Smyly and Nick Franklin felt like a light return for David Price, and Martin Prado and stuff felt like a light return for Justin Upton. At some point, we need to stop expecting the market value of very good players on short-term deals to be elite talents who could turn into superstars. Instead, it appears that the market value of these kinds of players is lower-ceiling, big league ready players who look like they could perform at roughly a league average level for multiple low cost years.
That kind of production might not be as sexy, but getting the equivalent performance of a $10 million player for the league minimum has legitimate value. Marcus Semien might not ever turn into anything more than just a nice little second baseman, but nice little second baseman aren’t so easy or cheap to acquire as we might think. As another trade piles up suggesting that this is what teams can expect in return for short-term frontline starters, we probably need to calibrate our expectations accordingly.
Jeff Samardzija is very good and very valuable. Marcus Semien is less good, but maybe not that much less valuable.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
I’m an A’s fan, and I loved Samardzija. That being said, I’m really excited about this deal. I like it quite a bit for the A’s, Semien could be pretty dang good. AAA numbers show fantastic discipline, possible 20/20 guy. High floor, too. I like it.
Yeah, I like this strategy of Oakland’s of trying to stretch their window without giving up on this year. They lose somewhere between 1 and 2 wins this year, which clearly is not nothing, but gain Semien for another 5 years that Samardzjia wouldn’t be around for.
That said, I also like this deal for CWS, as a team looking to compete this year and perhaps spend more than in the recent past, taking a good pitcher for a single year and getting to attempt an extension.
I wouldn’t even say they’re punting this year. I fully expect them to be in the thick of things this year too.
woops, misread your comment. Apologies
I actually like this deal quite a bit from the A’s side of things. Semien is really quite decent (walks a lot, slugs a ton for a middle infielder, including .502 in 366 PA this past year in AAA). Strike outs were an issue this past season, but only in a very small sample size. Bassitt has the stuff to be a solid mid-rotation starter. Ravelo, although young, walks a good amount and hardly ever strikes out. He slashed .309/.386/.473 last year in AA. I think the A’s got a great package of promising players for one year of Samardzija. This is the first A’s move this season that I really like for them.
If you ignore that the A’s moved Russell for Samardzija, the current deal really is a nice deal for both teams (I’m a Sox fan fyi).
The Sox had a surplus of somewhat unproven, major league/almost major league ready second base options (Johnson, Semien, and Sanchez). Semien looks/ed to be the safest bet, while Johnson has the higher ceiling. Meanwhile, Ravelo needs more time in the minors while also being behind Abreu at first. LaRoche was signed to DH, and while a Ravelo/LaRoche platoon could very well have been an option in 2016, he was still only look at ~200 PA in 2016 if the Sox went that route.
Figuring Semien is the 2 WAR player he’s projected to be, Ravelo could really put this over the top for A’a as a high contact, limited power 1B/DH in late 2015 and beyond. Both of those guys could easily have found themselves on the outside looking in on the Sox a year from now (Semien passed by Jonhson; Ravelo stuck behind Abreu/LaRoche).
Meanwhile, the Sox get possibly six years of Samardzija (6/$110m? if signed before the start of the ’15 season). If they don’t sign him, it becomes Semien/Ravelo/Bassitt for one year of Samardzija and ~30-35 pick in the ’16 draft; which isn’t as good of a deal, but not bad either.
The Russell for Samardzija and Hammels trade is a sunk cost, and shouldn’t be a consideration for evaluating this deal.
Russell AND McKinney. Point still taken, tho’.
In evaluating this deal in a vacuum, yes. In evaluating Beane’s strategy and foresight as a whole, no.
Besides being a sunk cost, it’s not a comp anyway. Rates are set based on supply and demand. Both the supply and the demand has changed quite a bit since the A’s/Cubs trade.
In evaluating this deal in a vacuum, yes. In evaluating Beane’s strategy and foresight as a whole, no.
In evaluating this deal period. No vacuum.
In evaluating Beane’s performance or the franchise’s progress, it’s very relevant.
Switching back and forth between what you’re evaluating is counterproductive.
man, people are coming out of the woodwork to criticize Beane’s deadline deals just because his more recent moves looks questionable makes them feel justified. the fact remains that those deals are entirely defensible in context (especially the goddamn Cespedes deal – the flip has totally switched on that one) and possibly the only reason the As made the playoffs at all.
*looking questionable
No, Bassitt does not have the stuff to be a mid-rotation starter. He might be a nice bullpen arm.
Why do you say that? He’s got the arm strength (pitched ~150 innings in ’13), pretty solid K-BB%. I definitely could see him not panning out and becoming a reliever, but I certainly think his upside is a starting pitcher. Just needs maybe another year to develop, but it seems to me like he’s transitioned pretty well in the minors from a reliever to a starter.
He doesn’t have very good control. He has an average fastball, a fringey loping curveball, and a slider with some potential. And he’s said that he prefers the bullpen. I don’t think his K%-B% has been very impressive in recent years other than his short stint in AA in 2014.
If he ends up as a good bullpen arm, then I think he will have done a very good job using is talent. Ceiling would be a back of the rotation starter in my opinion.
I thought that Beane’s acquisition of Samardzija was improvident. He just isn’t that good, and given the starting pitching he had on hand, he wasn’t that important.
This is a significant remedy. Semien isn’t Addison Russell, but it’s a lot closer than one might think. Russell has some issues- it’s not a given that he will even have any kind of major league career. He’s got great tools, but some of the skills need some work. The difference, of course, is that Russell has a much higher chance of being a star.
It is, of course, correct that Samardzija had more value in July than in December.
Russell is a solid A prospective. Semen isn’t even close.
Semien. Damn you autocorrect!
We have seaman as well!
That’s gonna happen a lot. I’d just start calling him Marcus.
The starting pitching he had on hand was Gray, Kazmir, and ???
Kazmir was horrible in September and much of August. Gray was declining due to the heavy workload. And after that it was pretty much just depth guys. They acquired 3/5 of their rotation from the trades including that one and in all likelihood the team would’ve been even worse in Aug/Sept if they didn’t make those trades.
The Yankees found an average player in Yangervis Solarte (1.5 WAR) last year and, as far as I can tell, there was not much credit given for that move. If teams are really valuing potentially average major leaguers, shouldn’t we expect a spike in the contracts being offered to minor league free agents?
Sure, every once in a while you can get average production from a minor league free agent. Some even turn into Jose Quintana. In general, we shouldn’t expect to see a spike in minor league free agent contracts. If there is a reasonable chance that they are average players in the majors, then they wouldn’t be minor league free agents.
I think that you are assuming a far more efficient market than what we in fact have.
Solarte is an outlier. It’s not as if there are 30 players like him in the minor league free agent market. Players who are expected to be an average MLB player generally do not become minor league free agents. They are placed on a team’s 40-man-roster before they are eligible for the Rule 5 draft, and they get promoted to the 25-man roster.
You don’t think that organizations don’t ever have more than 40 players who are worthy of being protected on the roster?
Also, Solarte is projected for less than a win next year…just under half of what Semien is. Because, regression.
With that being said, it seems like John Hart is looking for too much for Justin Upton. It appears like the Orioles are a really good fit for Upton. Although I doubt Hart would do this, would Miguel Gonzalez and a prospect like Christian Walker be enough to be the 2 main pieces (not total package) for 1 year of Justin Upton?
This analysis doesn’t seem crazy, but if you buy this reasoning, it is impossible to justify the original Samardzija trade, even after applying a hefty premium for the added value of getting Shark in July.
Only if you ignore the value of a deep playoff run.
No, you just have to make reasonable assumptions about Shark’s contribution to the likelihood of a deep playoff run. You can’t simply add the value of a playoff run to Shark’s July value. As we now know, acquiring him did not guarantee a deep playoff run (and not acquiring him did not rule one out). This was plenty apparent at the time.
Right, but it was generally thought at the time that he increased the chances of the deep playoff run. Of course he doesn’t get the full value. You would think that goes without saying.
It does go without saying. Hence, my original point stands: If you buy the reasoning that Semien and a couple of lesser prospects are worth a season of Shark plus a draft pick, it is impossible to justify the original Samardzija trade, even after applying a hefty premium for the added value of getting Shark in July.
Yeah, it’s easy to say that now, but if the A’s had made it past the WC game (which, be honest, I think most people thought they were at least 60-70% to win the division and probably 30-40% to make the ALCS), people would view it a lot differently. I liked that trade and I like this one too — they aren’t incompatible views.
Let’s say Shark’s value in July was double what it was now — which is essentially a 100% trade deadline premium on his 2014 value. Good luck getting a healthy top 5 major-league prospect/first year player (eg, Russell, Bryant, Betts, Correa, Baez, Buxton) for two Semiens.
*Two Semiens, two Chris Bassitts, two Josh Phegleys, and two Rangel Ravelos.
+ Jason Hammels for that playoff run as well.
Minus McKinney and Straily, who alone are worth Semien.
McKinney and Straily, who alone are worth Semien.
Show your work.
Also, this analysis would place a very high value on Straily and McKinney, both prospects with good chance of being league average starters.
Straily is not a prospect; hes a 26 year old failed starter with 1.2 career WAR in 250 innings whose ERA neared 7 last year along with a FIP over 5. He failed in AAA too.
You’ve changed tacts from dishonest implication to outright lying.
The Athletics used Russel to acquire Samardzija and Hammel.
No, because the A’s also included Dan Straily and outfield prospect Billy McKinny. If anything, those two together are worth more than Hammel (who was only a rental without a draft pick), meaning that Shark cost them Russell plus. McKinney was the A’s #3 prospect. You could make an argument that he is comparable to Semien by himself.
Yes. You don’t get to pretend to know which players were traded for each pitcher.
The point that was made to you was that the Russel package was not a package for Samardzija. It was a package for Samardzija and Hammel.
You seem to have a problem separating information from your opinion of it. Semien was a top 100 prospect; Mckinney never has been. Semien is rated as a 50 FV prospect with a low (2 – same as Russel) risk profile; Mckinney is rated as a 45 FV with a higher (3) risk profile. Implying equivalence between Mckinney & Semien is disingenuous at best.
Dan Strailey, meanwhile, is a 26 year old non-prospect, has 1.2 WAR career WAR in 250 MLB innings – including an ERA near 7 and a FIP over 5 last year (approaching 5 for both in AAA).
Yeah, their inclusion in the package is a fact. But Addison Russel was the piece traded for Samardzija and Hammel. And contrary to your claim, it wasn’t impossible to justify.
No, you’re now trying to inject a world’s worth of difference between a 50 and 45 FPV. It’s arguable that McKinney + Strailly were worth more than a journeyman starter on a hot streak. Thus inarguable that, heck of course yes, Beane gave up Russell+ for Sammy. A horrible percentage move that blew up about as badly as it could’ve.
For Sammy and Hammel yeah…
No, you’re now trying to inject a world’s worth of difference between a 50 and 45 FPV.
No, you made this up.
It’s arguable that McKinney + Strailly were worth more than [Hammel]
Much easier to just say this than make such an argument.
Thus inarguable that, heck of course yes, Beane gave up Russell+ for Sammy. A horrible percentage move that blew up about as badly as it could’ve.
No, you made this up.
I am a White Sox fan and Marcus Semien is not a 20/20 guy. Now, that doesn’t mean he isn’t going to be good. I think he will be and the best guy the A’s got was probably a Rangelo Ravelo. A slick fielding 1B with plate discipline, i.e. a Billy Beane kind of player.
well it seemed like Semien plus some squat, but if Ravelo is something (not sure how much to value a 1Bman without power tho) and Phegley may be a late blooming C, then it’s still more a quantity over quality get.
other thing is that I wasn’t aware that Semien could play SS. Cause he’s certainly more interesting there then at 2B. I assume he’ll slide over to 2B as soon as Robertson is deemed ready tho…
Misters Bassit, Phegley and Ravelo might want to offer their insights into the market price of Mr. Samardijza also.
Is it possible we’re assuming replacement level is too high, then?
That would make sense why 1-2 WAR players get paid higher than we expect while 5-6 WAR players get paid lower than we expect.
You expected me to get more?
I think the Royals game broke Billy Beane’s brain. I see him wandering around the A’s offices in his pajamas, wild eyed and unshaven, with his incoherent mumblings about trading various players interrupted only by screams of “Hold the *&%$@ runner!”.
Norris was not the starting catcher because his injuries would not allow him to throw out runners. The starting catcher was injured early in the game. What were the odds of that happening? The As had no choice but to insert Norris. Everyone knew he couldn’t throw out your mother. The resulting steals came as no surprise. Many people believe that if the starting catcher had not been injured, the As would have won the game, but such is baseball.
Nah dude, he’s talking about how Jon Lester is probably the worst pitcher in the MLB at controlling the running game. The dude is afraid of throwing to first.
Sullivan actually broke down Norris’ throws in that game and concluded he did a fine job.
I think selective memory is at play here in the current market evaluation. As humans, we tend to remember pleasant surprise performances and forget expectedly terrible ones. Guys like Nick Frankin and Semien have value because they are young, cheap, and project as productive players. Note the difference between that and “have performed at the MLB level”. That’s where the disconnect is
Solid article. Update your concluding sentence real quick tho
Anyone that thought the return for Price was light should imagine the Rays trying to trade him now for basically all of the reasons that Dave outlined. I’d be surprised if they got any two of Smyly, Franklin, and Adames right now with all the other players available out there.
Yeah, the advantage of trading midseason is that you can get 2-3 of these guys instead of 1-2
I think part of the consideration the A’s had with the trade for Shark and Hammel was that if they don’t get these two pitchers, another contender will. Since they were already in position for a playoff run at the time, the number of actual competitors was limited to other teams in playoff contention. Since Shark and Hammel were going to be traded, most likely to a playoff contender, not getting them at that point was actually a negative since it would make one of their playoff competitors better.
Not to nit-pick, but Justin Upton wasn’t exactly on a short-term deal. There were 3 years of team control left all at very low cost. So really that stands out as even less return than the others, given the context.
It’s a fair justification of the A’s return for Samardzija, but don’t you have to circle back to your original point about players (pitchers, specifically) being more valuable at the trade deadline? Doesn’t that mean it would make a LOT more sense to trade Samardzija at the 2015 trade deadline?
I know Russell is seen as a premium prospect, but Semien seems to be a somewhat high floor guy given where he is in his career. Russell hasn’t even seen 500 upper level AB yet. So the risk for him to not be any better than Semien is pretty high. Is Russell much better of a prospect than say Dustin Ackley was?