Peter Bourjos is Cameron Maybin
In yesterday’s post about the fallout from the Josh Hamilton signing, I noted that the Angels could use Peter Bourjos as a pretty attractive trade chip, and predictably, a decent amount of people responded that Bourjos is nothing more than a fourth outfielder or defensive replacement because he can’t hit. This sentiment has been around for a while, since Bourjos came up and hit .204/.237/.381 as a rookie in 2010, and Bourjos didn’t exactly light the world on fire last year either.
However, I think it’s worth noting that there’s another center fielder in baseball with basically the exact same offensive skillset and overall performance as Bourjos, and he seems to be doing just fine down in San Diego.
The Padres center fielder, of course, is Cameron Maybin. The Padres plucked him from the Marlins a couple of years ago, made him their starting center fielder, and have watched him blossom into one of their best overall players. A year ago, they rewarded him with a five year contract extension, buying out his arbitration years and giving them control over his rights through 2017. And, when you look at them side by side, it’s essentially impossible to see an area where Maybin is substantially better.
Let’s start with their plate discipline stats, as they are a building block for a player’s overall approach. All stats are from the last three years.
| Name | O-Swing | Z-Swing | Swing | O-Contact | Z-Contact | Contact | Zone | SwStr |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bourjos | 31% | 61% | 46% | 59% | 87% | 77% | 48% | 10% |
| Maybin | 29% | 65% | 46% | 58% | 85% | 76% | 47% | 11% |
They swing at the same amount of pitches. They make contact with the same amount of pitches. Their in-zone and out-of-zone rates are basically identical. There’s really no differences here.
How about when they put the bat on the ball – is there a substantial difference in what happens when they make contact?
| Name | LD% | GB% | FB% | IFFB% | HR/FB | IFH% | BUH% | BABIP |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Peter Bourjos | 15% | 49% | 37% | 10% | 10% | 12% | 45% | 0.301 |
| Cameron Maybin | 16% | 55% | 29% | 9% | 9% | 10% | 41% | 0.312 |
Maybin hits the ball on the ground a little more often, but Bourjos is a little faster, so he gets a few more infield hits and bunt hits. The differences here are negligible, though. They’re both ground ball hitters with a little bit of power who use their speed to get better BABIPs than you’d expect from guys with low line drive rates.
And the overall results that combination leads to?
| Name | BB% | K% | ISO | AVG | OBP | SLG | wOBA | wRC+ |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bourjos | 6% | 22% | 0.155 | 0.247 | 0.301 | 0.402 | 0.308 | 95 |
| Maybin | 8% | 23% | 0.120 | 0.249 | 0.312 | 0.369 | 0.301 | 92 |
Maybin’s got a slightly higher OBP, but Bourjos has a slightly higher slugging percentage, and even after you account for the park factors, Bourjos grades out as a slightly better hitter overall. You might not expect Bourjos to outslug Maybin when you look at them, but Bourjos is deceptively strong – 36% of his career hits have gone for extra bases.
There is one offensive area where they have diverged, and it is a real advantage for Mabyin, and that’s on the bases. Maybin’s been a +20 baserunner in his career, which averages out to about +8 runs per full season, while Bourjos is at +4 runs per season on the bases. Bourjos is the faster of the two, but he hasn’t turned that speed into efficient base stealing, and so Maybin makes up the small gap at the plate by providing extra value with his legs.
Overall, though, the numbers basically come out in the wash. Maybin’s 2010-2012 total offensive value per 600 plate appearances grades out as +5 runs per full season, while Bourjos comes in at +3. Both have been roughly average offensive performers over the last three seasons.
On defense, Maybin is generally considered an above average defensive center fielder, and both UZR and DRS agree that he’s been an asset in the field for the Padres. The defensive metrics are in love with Bourjos, however. While the sample is still only 2,200 innings, his UZR/150 is a ridiculous +24, made even more absurd by the fact that he’s only played center field. A lot of guys who have racked up these kinds of absurd UZR totals in the outfield have played corner spots — Carl Crawford and Brett Gardner, for instance — so their baseline has included a comparison to plodding sluggers. UZR suggests that Bourjos has run laps around the other outfielders who were already selected for their defensive prowess.
Defensive metrics being what they are, you want to regress that number substantially in any kind of future projection. Bourjos is almsot certainly not a +24 center fielder, and given what we know about the range of defensive value, he’s probably more likely to be a +10 to +15 center fielder. Elite defenders usually aren’t much better than +15 runs above average for their position, and since we’re dealing with about two years worth of data for Bourjos, we shouldn’t be willing to concede that he’s an historical outlier just yet. Everything we know about Bourjos suggests he’s probably very good in center field, but you shouldn’t expect him to keep putting up the kinds of numbers he has previously. Let’s just be conservative and call him a +10 center fielder; that would make him a little bit better than Maybin, who is probably around a +5 or so, but wouldn’t treat Bourjos like he’s the greatest defensive outfielder who ever lived.
Overall, Bourjos is a slightly worse offensive player than Maybin, but likely offsets that difference with his better range in center field. The differences are all small enough that you can call the whole thing a wash, though – they’re basically the exact same player. And they’re basically the exact same age; Maybin was born four days after Bourjos.
A couple of years ago, Maybin was considered a busted prospect who couldn’t hit. The Padres gave him a full time job and have been rewarded for their confidence. Bourjos is a carbon copy of Maybin, and someone should have the confidence in this skillset to do the same. Instead of focusing on the fact that he’s a speed guy with a low OBP, focus on the overall player. As Maybin has shown, this skillset works in the big leagues.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
But Bourjos is white and Maybin is black, so this just won’t work.
The liberal elite may not want to admit it, but white people HAVE historically been at a disadvantage.
Aren’t you the guy that said “Feminism is a means by which unattractive women gain easier access to mainstream society?”
Lesbian.
Hey Rachel, aren’t you the one going on television and explaining to all of your peace-loving Zio-Commie terrorist viewers why the sovereign government of Syria and its legitimate ruler, Bashir al-Assad, needs to be killed and his supporters murdered so that an IMF-controlled central bank can be installed in Syria just like de facto President Soetoro and his NWO rump ranger buddies did to Qaddafi in Libya?
Oh, what’s that? You don’t mention that part about the central banking scam? Yeah, that might blow your cover, you rotten Jewess.
Those dead Syrians have a point.
Yeah but is Maybin real black or cornball black?
lol
NBADraft.net would not approve.
It’s all moot if you’re convinced as I am that the Angels won’t trade him.
I have no qualms with any of the objective arguments for Bourgos. But when your $500k house has been for sale for a year and a half, you need to realize that the market just doesn’t think your house is worth $500k.
This comment is awesome.
That I’m agreeing with a man named “Mr. Barfman” makes me want to vomit.
I don’t see how this comment is awesome. Dave was arguing that the players are in fact the same in value. He was implicitly criticizing the fact that they are not so regarded.
I’d say the comment is irrelevant.
Very well put. This is why the Angels should just hold on to Bourjos. They’re never going to get equal value for the guy. If you can swap Mark Trumbo for a solid #4ish starting pitcher, and I think you probably can, pull the trigger and call it a day.
Agreed. Bourjos could prove to be the better player, but Trumbo has greater market value.
They can get Dickey right now for Trumbo if they wanted, but they don’t
Go get him Frank Wren.
Why?
Dont Frank. The Braves need an impact bat in LF, not another slap hitter. Bourjos would lose a ton of value being put in LF. There’s no chance the Braves are moving Upton to LF.
The Braves need someone to help their offense, not make it worse. The very last thing they need is a lead-off hitter who doesn’t get on base.
It’s interesting because (I think) the point of this article was to make us think that Bourjos is better than we thought, but my takeaway is that Maybin is worse than I thought. I had no clue he was a sub-.400 slugger who doesn’t get on base much.
As for Bourjos, the main problem is that his skillset just isn’t highly valued in trades or on the open market. He’s not going to be the centerpiece in a deal for Dickey, for instance. Look at the market for someone like Bourn. If he put up the same exact WAR over the last 3-4 years, but it was based more on hitting and less on CF defense, he’d have signed a megacontract by now. As is, executives don’t value CF defense the way that WAR does.
Good point, which is why I’d be more tempted to try to trade Trumbo or (preferably) Morales because either could actually be part of a package for a pretty decent pitcher but end up being no more valuable next year.
Bourjos’s defense–at least as far as Fld shows–was actually below his norm in 2011, his one full year. If he can recreate those hitting numbers AND have a full season of his best defense, he could be a 6 WAR player. Even if he only hits .250/.310/.400, he’s at around 4 WAR – which is about the very best we could expect from Trumbo or Morales.
On the other hand, I’d be sad to see Trout leave CF to play LF. Trout as a CFer makes his overall package sexier; he goes from being a 7 WAR All-Star in left to a 9 WAR dynamo in center.
This confirmed my gut: I’d probably take Bourjos over Maybin, by a hair (all pay being equal). But I think the real takeaway is that CF don’t hit very well as a group. In fact, it’s QUITE hard to get an average-defense CF who will give you much at the plate.
Would you believe that Bourjos is the 16th best hitter at CF over the last two years by wRC+? (among guys with at least 400 PA) Right between Jon Jay and Denard Span, in fact. And he’s top 25 by wOBA at in the same list (which should be taken with a grain of salt, as guys like Mayberry somehow have 400 PA and Fangraphs lists them as CF?).
Basically, it’s safe to say that Bourjos is likely the best defensive CF and is within the top 15-25 hitters at the position. It just happens to be that CF is a position that kind of sucks at hitting compared to other spots not named SS or C.
I loved your comment until you used that awful, used-up “not named” cliche.
I still like it a lot.
I don’t think you’re correct when you say that executives don’t value CF defense the way WAR does. In fact, wouldn’t a SABR friendly executive be exactly the type who understands that defense typically peaks early, during the pre- and arbitration years, and the reason Bourn sits on the market isn’t necessarily the failing of the market to recognize Bourn’s value but rather explained by a GM acquiring the same skillset at a much, much cheaper price on the farm?
Put another way: Is Bourn’s projectible value added worth the premium paid to acquire him? IDK…
So vivalajeter, I’m with you on the comparison making me downmark Maybin more than upmark Bourjos. Maybin does have the burden of swatting the ball in Petco, but that said he’s only managed to be a regular for two years, only one of which was even decent with the bat, after years of floundering at the plate.
I, however, _do_ have some problems with the analysis. A three-year aggregated for Bourjos does seem good on the surface, but in this case it subtlely (deliberately?) conceals the most salient issue regarding Bourjos: he’s had wildly different results over three years, so no one really knows who he is as a hitter. His first time up he had a few knowks in under 200 ABs to make the ISO look good, but otherwise looked like the low-BB, high-K guy he has always been, minors and majors. Bourjos had quite a good year with his skillset in 2011 as a regular, supporting real value. Bourjos couldn’t his half his weight in 2012, and lost most of that power two as well as any spot in the regular line up.
So: are we just to ignore Bourjos’ miserable 2012 and draw a meaningless trend or an obfuscatory mean through Pete’s performance? Well, _I_ wouldn’t do that. It is at least as probable to consider that the league has figured how to pitch Bourjos and that he’ll never turn in that ‘don’t know me yet’ ISO again. Bourjos is entering his age-26 season to, so while one might anticipate he’ll get the upside of his skillset for the next 3-4 years, one also has to consider he is unlikely now to significantly change that skillset. Anyone acquiring Bourjos should pay for the under on his offensive projection if they’re sane, which is exactly why no one has ponied up top talent for the guy yet. Getting Maybin isn’t exactly appealing given what Maybin does when not wearing a glove, and nobody wants to get a righty Jeremy Reed even if the guy can actually field CF.
Bourjos as a glove-mostly player has real value, ’cause his is a good one. An org with a strong offensive 25 man but short on outfielders could find a lot of value in Peter Bourjos, batting him 8-9, putting him in CF, and forgetting about the rest, for sure. And there are teams around the league who fit that. So, I have a comp that to me fits Bourjos even better: Cesar Geronimo. That guy was valuable too, for a few years. But ouside of his brief, early peak in his early 20s Geronimo never hit a lick either. Be warned, buyers: buy the walk, not the talk.
I think the most surprising thing about this is that they have 9-10% HR/FB ratios for their careers (and playing in pitchers parks). Some guys in that range in 2012:
Joe Mauer
Adrien Gonzalez
Mike Moustakis
Brett Lawrie
“an historical”
BAD DAVE!! BAD!!
that is correct
Are you sure? the ‘H’ in historical is hard, unlike the ‘H’ in honor.
It’s an honor…
It’s a historical fact…
An is only used before vowels, “an apple” while A is used in front of consonants that are pronounced (a soft H isn’t, but a soft J is) “a grape”.
I’m not one to be a grammar Nazi, but I think tyke is right.
Not everyone pronounces the ‘aitch in ‘istory. Dave’s Cockney roots are showing through.
It’s ahistorical?
Perhaps it’s an historical occasion when he decided not to confuse ourselves by confusing ourselves.
The queen’s english leaves the h-vowel started words up for the “an” since usually they don’t pronounce the h.
Looks fine to me
Yup, either is acceptable. Same deal with “hotel”. I don’t know why, though.
Colm has the right answer.
Shame on Tyke for even making his comment.
I wonder if the Phils offered Worley and Mays to LAA for Bourjos?
Willie, Carl or Joe?
Billie
sorry… excuse me for the typo and adding an “s”. really… is this the best use of your time asswipes? (or is that asswipe?)
and Cliff… if I was going Billie… it’d be Billie Letts, not Billie Mays.
Revere is more valuable at this point than Bourjos.
Einhorn is Finkel!
Finkel is Einhorn!
Then who is Peter Bourjos?
Not Vernon Wells trying to make us think he’s not really Vernon Wells, right?
I meant who is Cameron Maybin. Epic joke fail!
That thud you heard is me dropping the mic and running off the stage to go and drown my sorrows.
hahaha.
There are a couple of important differences between Maybin and Bourjos, for the purpose of projecting what they are likely to do in the next couple of years. They are both 25 years old. Maybin has been a full-time player for two years, and is about a year ahead of Bourjos in major league experience. He’s also taller. Maybin’s IsoP on the road so far is .137, which isn’t great but PETCO makes it look worse than it actually is. The view that Maybin is more likely to have league-average or better power than Bourjos going forward has some decent objective basis.
I knew someone who didn’t actually read Dave’s article would bring up Petco.
Dave used wRC+, which is adjsted for park, for his offensive comparison.
I still think Bourjos is the best defender I’ve ever seen in the outfield sans Andruw Jones, so I think +24 in CF for a full season is very possible every year.
I agree. And I’ve seen Maybin strikeout or make weak contact so many times I want my money back. I’d rather have Bourjos.
Cameron Maybin and Peter Bourjos are a lot alike. They are both terrible hitters. As far as I am concerned Maybin is still a bust. Both are 4th outfielders.
This reads like a crusty “You pesky young writers with your ‘facts’ and ‘analysis’… I prefer my own gut feelings to your so-called ‘logic'” response. Do you really mean that?
No, it’s more like, “You pesky writer, you have always overrated a player so you now come up with all kinds of reasons to make people think he is better than he is”.
btw, I wouldn’t be reading this site if I was someone who thought “gut feelings” were more important than facts.
Bourjos had a wRC+ of 72 last year. Why would anyone trade anything of value for that?
You forgot to finish your thoughts JT
“Bourjos had a wRC+ of 72 last year … which is very understandable being a pinch hitter and used infrequently. Of course, his one full year where he started he managed to put up a wRC+ of 113. This aligns with what you would expect given his minor league track record.”
“As far as I am concerned Maybin is still a bust. [He is] a 4th outfielder … on any team that is stacked with 3 stud outfielders. The guy has averaged 3.5 WAR over the past 2 years. That’s within spitting distance of BJ Upton who just signed that massive contract.”
Hopefully that helps out. You must have been distracted when you wrote the comments above.
because 4 of the 8.3 WAR he has amassed in 940 PAs comes from his outstanding defense? or how about just “he has amassed 8.3 WAR in 940 PAs”?
There are some implicit assumptions that may not be sound. It’s a three year sampel referred to, but in 2/3 years Bourjos has <200 PA. So, he's had one good year, and two years where he has had limited PA and hasn't hit well. Maybin, on the other hand, hit poorly in year one but was stronger in the most recent two years. For projection purposes I'd say that seems like Bourjos' results are more prone to volatility.
I thought a lot of people were actually upset Maybin wasn’t doing better by now? Not sure if that’s the best comparison…
Exactly. Maybin was projected to be some sort of superstar and so far he has been a bust. Not sure why he was used for comparison purposes, other than to say Bourjos isn’t that good either.
JT a guys value comes from far more than his pure hitting. Maybin is a far cry from a bust! 2.7 WAR is solid. For reference Ichiro was worth exactly the same WAR in 100 more at bats in 2012. Car Gonzalez of the Rockies was worth exactly the same 2.7 War. Shin So0 choo, Justin Upton and Cutis Granderson were all worth a hair less with more at bats than Maybin. If you do not agree then go click on leaders the OF and then go to the second page. You will find all these names as mentioned.
This article isn’t whether Maybin is a superstar or if he has reached his potential. Here the discussion is simply about value. Having a pre-arb guy who is more than capable of replicating Maybin’s performance makes Bourjos quite valuable.
If by “quite valuable” you mean not valuable at all, then you’re exactly right. You might was well have the pitcher hit for himself.
A lot of people are idiots. Many of them think that a flat Earth is the center of the universe and that the moon landing was fake.
Oh really Nats Fan? Darwin Barney had a 2.5 WAR. Oh, that’s right, he’s a Cub and isn’t a saber darling like Bourjos & Maybin.
Maybin still sucks at baseball. WAR completely overrates defense and is dependant on horrific defensive metrics. Enjoy those 500+ outs every year …
Didn’t Bourjos play most of last year with a hip injury? If so, that might of hindered his production.
Right now sure, but in the next 5 years I expect Bourjos to blossom while Maybe will be an average starter.
Even more interesting is that both parlayed pretty good 2011s (4.5 WAR each) into more-or-less disappointing 2012s (Bourjos to injury, Maybin to ineffectiveness and minor injuries).
I can’t speak for Bourjos, but I do like Maybin’s production going forward. As it was covered here, Maybin revitalized himself around the end of June last season and posted above-average wRC+’s for the rest of the season. The strikeouts were down to the high-teens (walks dropped as well, unfortunately).
Ultimately, I don’t think Maybin ever develops into the super-prospect he was expected to be, but I think he could be an above-average CFer, with great speed and good defense, and the possibility to add some power as his body fills out.
….trying to convince people that a player is deceptively good by showing that he is a carbon copy of a player who is deceptively bad might not be the best approach.
…this must be some Pacific Northwest affliction, loving players who can’t hit, but can catch the ball real well. …I would think years of rooting for the Mariners would make one despise these types of players. Wasn’t it more fun back in the days when you had Griffey, Edgar, Buhner, Tino, BabyRod, et al. blasting balls to all reaches of the King Dome? I even liked watching those teams as a Yankees fan (except for the last meaningful game 0f ’95).
Cameron Maybin is 6’3 and 210 lbs.
Peter Bourjos is 6’1 and 185lbs (and plays like 5’9″ 170lbs).
…Dustin Pedroia is also 5’9″. …in baseball, 5’9″ is the equivalent of a “gentleman’s C” at Harvard.
…reading comprehension not so good….
The Rockies should try to acquire Bourjos. Their best strategy almost certainly involves having multiple centerfielders playing at Coors. They would be positioned to extract maximum defensive value from him.
So Nate, I agree, the Rockies are one of the best matches for dealing Bourjos. He’d be extremely valuable in center there. Swap some of their not so #1 pitcher pick-ups from Cleveland a year ago for him, the Halos at least get an arm. But if the Angels want to trade him at his 2011 value or forget it, it’s already forgotten.
Agreed. It makes more sense (to me) for the Rockies to trade for Bourjos than to trade away Fowler. More than any other team, they could use exceptional OF play. It would ease the burden on their entire overtaxed pitching staff, which I’d prioritize over adding another arm. Don’t know if they have what Angels want in return. Colvin or Cuddyer could be moved in a separate deal, if that helps.
who wants Bourjos enough to give the Angels anything that they would want or need for him?
not only is the no shortage of people who play a good CF but don’t hit at al, but the Angels clearly HAVE to trade an outfielder so they have little leverage…..and they don’t need anything much other than a front-end starter and a closer.
there’s hardly any chance that Bourjos is gonna secure that for them.
they just might be forced to trade Trumbo for a starter.
Bring back Reggie Willits.
I give you the key to the city knowing full well that what you are about to do will end everything we know and cherish
The Angels should keep Bourjos and trade Trumbo, who’s value probably won’t get any higher than it is right now. That suspect pitching staff would be helped a lot by having two elite OF defenders plus Aybar at SS and Kendrick at 2b.