Pick Your Four Years
Every so often, someone asks where I got my start. My first online conversations about baseball took place on the ESPN message boards, and I’m a Mariners fan, and that was back when the Mariners mattered. Around the turn of the millennium, the Mariners were entering the best era in franchise history. Between 2000 – 2003, the Mariners racked up more regular-season wins than anybody else. They ultimately crashed, and crashed hard, but four strong teams were built. Four competitive teams were built. It was terrific, except for the thing that was missing. In 2003, the Marlins of all teams won that thing. There was much debate over what a fan really wants. Say what you will about the Marlins, but they’ve brought home a couple trophies.
Here, I ask you what some might consider a fundamental question. There’s a poll at the end of this, and I want you to try to answer honestly, as a fan who’s presumably something more than just a casual observer. I’m going to go ahead and update my Mariners and Marlins examples. There are current(ish) teams who can fill the same roles. We’re all more familiar with what’s current!
The question is going to be: which four-year window would you prefer? There’ll be two options, and I want you to pick which one you’d find more enjoyable, or more satisfying, or more whatever. More whatever it is you like about being a fan. For the sake of this post, try to ignore other variables. Try to ignore, say, the state of the organization. Just focus on the four years.
One of the options: the 2012 – 2015 Boston Red Sox. Just in case you habitually tune the Red Sox out, and just in case you’re really good at it, allow me to be the first to tell you this year’s Red Sox have sucked! They haven’t been mathematically eliminated from anything, but they’re not going to win the World Series, and they’re not going to make the playoffs. They’re not a good team, and even worse than that, they were supposed to be a good team. And this isn’t a first.
This year’s Red Sox are on pace to fall 15 wins short of our official preseason projection. If you aren’t much for on-pace statistics, which is fine, we’ve currently got the Sox expected to fall 11 wins short of said projection. That’s a lot, but it’s not unprecedented, and here’s why! Last year, the Red Sox fell 18 wins short of preseason projections. Back in 2012, they fell 22 wins short of preseason projections. The 2012 Red Sox were supposed to be pretty good. Same with the 2013, 2014, and 2015 Red Sox. Three of the teams have been colossal disappointments. It goes beyond just being underachievers; I’m not sure another team has more greatly underachieved. If, that is, you just focus on the three years.
But, as you know, there’s the matter of the fourth year. The year that everything clicked, and the year that’s keeping Ben Cherington employed. The 2013 Red Sox actually had a worse preseason projection than the 2012, 2014, and 2015 versions, but the 2013 Red Sox exceeded their win projection by an incredible 15. Then they won a bunch more games in the playoffs, including the four they needed in the World Series. The Red Sox have gone last place — first place — last place — last place, but they made the most of that first-place finish, and that’s something that can never be taken away. In one of the last four seasons, Sox fans got to be the only fans to end a season happy.
The other option: the 2011 – 2014 Detroit Tigers. I wanted to choose a window that’s still open, but we don’t know how this year is going to end, yet. So this’ll work. The Tigers are an excellent peer of the turn-of-the-millennium Mariners. Between 2011 – 2014, the Tigers gathered more regular-season wins than any other club. They wound up with four straight first-place finishes in the AL Central, which meant four consecutive playoff berths. The Tigers have had their flaws, but they featured one of baseball’s best roster cores, and stardom brought them ever so close.
One year finished with a six-game ALCS loss. Then there was a World Series sweep. Another six-game ALCS loss. Finally, a first-round sweep. Each year, the Tigers were recognized as one of baseball’s best teams. Each year, the fans got to experience following one of baseball’s best teams. Just about every game mattered, and if it didn’t, it was only because the Tigers were already assured of moving on. They won the Central in 2011 by 15 games. The next three years were closer, but the Tigers always won.
Until they lost. The only thing the Tigers couldn’t deliver was that one final smile, the happy ending for a hell of a book. Everything else, the Tigers accomplished. They took perfect care of their fans, except for the one missing element, and those are tough defeats to get over. The disappointment lingers, and it can color everything that took place before. Having watched the Seahawks in the Super Bowl, I know what that did to my impression of the season before it.
You know what’s happened. You probably didn’t need those summaries. So it’s time for the poll, which essentially asks about the value of a championship. Obviously, a title is the most desirable outcome. How desirable is it, relative to just being in the hunt? Can the thrill of a title be greater than the satisfaction of consistent winning, if the winning always ends with losses, and if the title is surrounded by disappointment and defeat? I’m not actually sure of my own answer, but then the Mariners have never won the World Series so I don’t know what that’s like. Many of you have witnessed championships. I’m very interested in how this ends up.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.
Expected to see a poll, perhaps we use the comments? I vote for the championship. Flags fly forever.
Poll not show up? Shows up for me.
If you’re using a “do not track” browser plugin, you’ll have to disable it to see the poll.
Sports is about entertainment. Why take this crap so seriously? Flags fly forever blah blah blah, ok, I want to enjoy following my team. If my team is in last place 3/4 years, then I spent a lot of time not enjoying following my team.
Give me the sundae of sustained success without the cherry of winning the playoff crapshoot, over the shit sandwich that’s been the 2012-15 Red Sox, every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
I’m a generally happy and almost always entertained A’s fan.
‘Sports are entertainment’ show you aren’t a Red Sox fan. Boston sports fans treat sports like religion, which angers many other fanbases to be sure, especially since most of us don’t believe in actual religion, but it isn’t entertainment. I can’t really describe it. It’s an experience passed down from fathers we usually wind up hating that takes on a meaning in life greater than it should. It is unfathomable to root for another team. Northeasterners are born into sports. When the Whalers ended so did the NHL to me for example. Diehard Yankees fans are much the same way. And I would absolutely take the 3 sh1tstorm years and the banner than the first 20 years of my life before 2004.
The first hint that someone isn’t a Red Sox fan is that they are not the worst. What you are describing is run of the mill die hard fandom. There may be proportionally more diehard baseball fans in the Northeast than other areas of the country, but I promise you what you describe is not unique to your little spot in the world.
Sports is a not a replacement for religion, regardless of how you feel about religion. It’s just some dudes in matching clothes. Don’t ever forget that. Hero worship always made me feel extremely uneasy.
But even the terrible years in Boston are entertaining: there’s so much drama (Lucchino, Valentine, etc.) that there’s always an interesting story line to follow. And even if you don’t care about off-field issues, it’s entertaining to see how highly regarded young players like Rodriguez, Castillo, and Betts will do, regardless of where the Sox may be in the standings.
Bottom line: Boston’s 2012-2015 was more entertaining than Detroit’s 2011-2014.
At the end of the day, you are a Red Sox fan. Ergo – you would rather watch the Red Sox more than any other team (despite their performance). The point of the exercise was to take your fanboy inclinations and set them aside. Would you rather watch a team that was terrible 3/4’s of the time but did win a WS or watch a dominant team 4/4 years but who ultimately failed to fly the flag.
The point of the exercise was to take your fanboy inclinations and set them aside.
No it wasn’t. The point was to survey which type is preferable. “Fanboys” (fans, when you’re not busy trying to condescend) will have a certain perspective that’s exactly as valid as whatever elite, enlightened perspective you imagine yours to be.
The point of the exercise was to determine what you’d prefer. The specific teams mentioned were irrelevant to the exercise.
Not surprising that a Red Sox fan would be unable to consider the exercise rationally
fudge or caramel?
Fudge.
I agree with your argument about being entertained. I voted for the Sox because championship runs are much more enjoyable to me than failed playoff runs are. I’d take 1 championship run over 4 failed playoff runs any day (which can add extreme, extreme disappointment as well).
Right? I’m a Yankees fan so i run into an awful lot of idiots bithching and moaning about not “winning”.
These people obviously we’re not alive between 1979-1993.
My team has been consistently competitive. Even their ” bad” years had them playing meaningful games in at least early September.
I watch baseball for consistent enjoyment.
I can’t even understand the idea that only one team did anything that mattered in a season.
Just compete and entertain me please. Have a plan to stay competitive consistently.
The NBA’s move toward what has crystallized as the “Hinkie method” is awful to me.
There is a real value in may bring good enough to compete.
I won’t pay to go see a team in last place. Last season i didn’t even watch the Knicks for the first time since the mid 80s.
I’m super on the fence on this. I ultimately picked the Red Sox. Most of what moved me to that side is the sadness that comes from success that isnt quite there (I’m thinking mid-90s Orioles and how much that sucked).
That said, i’m more of an understanding fan now and realize the playoffs (especially now) are sort of a crap shoot.
I do wonder if i could console myself with the idea that the team I root for was the best over a 4-year period (whether by baseruns or win% [i know] or some other metric).
I think i would pick this fictitious best over a four year stretch over a team that had one good year. but who knows, really. I’ve never rooted for a team that won a championship, so that would be nice at some point (stupid Orioles, Eagles, Capitols, Wizards)
Friends come and go, banners hang forever.
It’s tempting to pick Detroit’s sustained success, but a championship forgives a lot of mistakes. It’s the reason they play.
While the day in, day out entertainment is nice, a championship is the object of the exercise and nothing else comes close.
It’s the object of the TEAMS exercise. I would expect the majority of players to prefer the Red Sox 4 year stretch to the Tigers.
But for fans it’s just about watching/enjoying/being entertained, so it’s about which of the two stretches would give you personally more total enjoyment to view.
I would choose sustained success because it means your team gets to the playoffs frequently. Anything can happen in the playoffs and it’s the emotional swings, the highs and lows, that make the playoffs exciting and enjoyable.
In a similar light, I would rather have my team have close playoff series every time, rather than steam-rolling their way through and sweeping throughout the playoffs.
I was with you to the end man. I want the Yankees to win 74-0 every game. Close games are very stressful and my wife can’t handle me yelling at the television in either joy it frustration.
“A perfect game is when we score ten in the first and then slowly pull away”
If the Braves had not won their 1995 title, how would that era be remembered in Atlanta? For their greatness in dominating the regular season year after year? I don’t think so. Give me the title.
I think it would still be remembered as a great era for the team, just like the four years in Seattle are remembered as a great (and much shorter) era for that team despite the disappointment of not winning. I’ve never lived in Atlanta or known any Braves fans really, but the thing that always comes up about that team is how long they were great, and how disappointing it was that they didn’t win more titles.
It is already bittersweet even having the one title. There were some amazing teams out there that were expected to win and when you look up at the consecutive banners in Turner Field and only see the one WS, it is kind of a bummer. Without it, I think it would hurt more than knowing we never had a chance. We are grateful for the 90’s and grateful for our WS, but without it, what do the playoff appearances mean?
As a Braves fan, I grew to hate the Yankees (even though that doesn’t mean much now) and rooted for the Red Sox in the AL. Championships are special. You don’t get teary-eyed because you lose in 4 games to a Wildcard team in the DS.
Personally, for me, prolonged excellence without a title wouldn’t hurt more than knowing we never had a chance. I’m a Cubs fan, so I know a bit about never having a chance. This is a team that has propped open a few windows with its wallet in the last few decades, but has had more sub-70 win seasons than playoff berths. And between the highs and lows, a variety of mediocre seasons with no real hope and no sign of a plan.
Obviously I’d take the Cardinals’ current run, or the Yankees’ before that, with continued excellence and titles, over the Braves’ long run in the ’90s. But my hypothetical is… what if the Cubs had won it in ’08 and the Braves hadn’t in ’95. I’d still take the ’90s Braves over the 2000s Cubs. At least it would be something to talk about at the bar. Nobody wants to talk about any part of the 2009 Cubs.
(I’m aware that if the other however-many-million Cub fans, living and dead, heard that I was personally responsible for trading off the World Series they “shoulda won” in ’08, because every team’s fans think they “shoulda won” every time they were good, I would have to go deeper undercover than Steve Bartman. Even so, I stand by my contention. Maybe it’s because my track coach called me “Mad Dog”.)
Why are the braves denigrated just because they happened to run up against a few really great teams in a tiny sample.
This is why i prefer the smaller playoff format.
I hate that 162 games is being diminished.
At the very least they should make the wildcard teams only have one home game in their series.
That braves team was amazing and you got to watch great meaningful exciting baseball for fifteen years.
The 96 loss I’m sure was tough. But after that they ran into a yankees team that was coming off being one of the greatest teams of all time with a ridiculous core of young super star talent. It was a tossup.
I don’t know. Four possibly fluky wins don’t outweigh seven months of excellence for me.
Living in Atlanta for a long time (as a non-Braves fan) I can tell you the prevailing wisdom is amazement about the longevity of the success with the qualifer, “can you believe there was only one championship?”
It hurts them to have only that one banner, despite being one of the winningest teams in the majors from the 90s to the mid 2000s
That’s why this question was tough to answer for me: are we allowed to consider hindsight or are we just considering the outcomes as they happen?
If I had to endure watching a losing team most years I generally wouldn’t enjoy it and would prefer the consistently good team while in the now. That being said, I doubt I’d look back fondly on those teams that were always pretty good but never quite got to the top, but I’m sure I’d always cherish that championship team forever.
As a Dback fan, I am so glad for that one title in ’01, knowing they may never win another one in my lifetime, it’s great to experience it at least the one time. They’ve had a few great years from ’99-’02, and a couple of other pretty good seasons after that, and several mediocre ones and a few lousy ones (with at least a couple of downright DREADFUL ones), but I can always look back on that ’01 team fondly.
So the Dbacks weren’t quite the “one great year, 3 lousy years”, but based on personal experiences, I can say for sure I’d take the one title over no title.
Option 3: The Blue Jays since 1995.
Never making the playoffs is not fulfilling in the least. Its been damn terrible being a Jays fan. I’d easily take a couple 60 win seasons if it meant a few 90 win seasons.
It looks like the front office may feel the same way you do.
If the team is in last place 3 out of 4 years, that means I’m disinterested and unhappy about them ~75% of the time.
If they’re in the playoffs every year, I’m interested and happy ~95% of the time. Sure, I’m supremely disappointed 1 extra time over 4 years, but I’d rather be happy over as much time as possible.
Flags may fly forever, but I have a short attention span, and that championship happiness ends when the next season begins. I’ll take the scenario where I’m happier more often than not.
Yeah, I agree. If the Red Sox had even been in the hunt one more year, it would be a closer thing for me. But there’s a lot more regular-season baseball than postseason baseball, and I do place a high value on enjoying those regular-season games by watching a team that wins most of its games.
Of course, as a Braves fans who didn’t start following the team until around 1997, I’ve had to learn to enjoy the regular seasons and endure the postseasons. Maybe if I remembered them winning a championship, my opinion would be different.
Having been a Red Sox fan for many years where they were more regular winners but had no WS ring, I actually still prefer the sporadic championship to consistently coming up close. Heck, for a stretch I was actually envying Marlins fans!
The bad scenario for me is when a franchise snuffs out my hope by making stupid moves that guarantee mediocrity for quite some time. I didn’t expect the Red Sox to stink so badly in 2012, 2014 and 2015, but I am worried about all the potential albatross contracts they have right now.
Their longest contract goes for another 5 years. Here’s a blue pill please chill. They don’t have any albatross contracts and NESN makes ownership over $300 million a year before a single ticket or $11 crappy frank is sold. They can afford to spend what they need to if they decide to.
In reply to S: Hanley, Sandoval, Porcello, and possibly Castillo are signed long term at far over their value. Those are what’s known as albatross contracts. And the team may have unlimited resources to fix their mistakes but a) that doesn’t mean they’ll use them all and b) they’d have to use them wisely, which they haven’t done in the past.
If the team is in last place 3 out of 4 years, that means I’m disinterested and unhappy about them ~75% of the time.
This is probably the dividing line in the poll. The question really how much losing lessens your enjoyment as opposed to how much winning increases it.
For me, baseball is a pleasure to watch regardless of standings, so I think I’d prefer seeing a WS run over repeated incomplete playoff runs. But not by a wide margin.
For anyone who loses interest in their team when it loses, the answer seems clear.
The 2014 and 2015 Red Sox were actually compelling, since they were teams that were expected to perform very well preseason but were disappointing instead. They also featured a lot of excellent and promising young players. Despite the last place finishes, they are no where near as dire as say, this year’s hopeless Phillies or Rockies or the Orioles were for an entire decade.
So take the World Series. The other seasons weren’t even that bad as baseball seasons go.
Right, there are some subordinate questions not fully addressed here about what makes a losing or non-playoff team watchable and fun vs. horrible and punishing to root for.
Agree completely. I went Sox on this, but mostly because, as you note, those teams surrounding the championship team were compelling but disappointing.
This is not the Marlins, where a championship is followed by a fire sale and no hope of repeating. That style of baseball operation holds zero appeal for me.
This gets a bit heady, but it’s something I’ve thought about w/r/t sports fandom: who are you a “fan” of, really? Are you a fan of the jerseys/home stadium/owner and business people, or are you a fan of a certain band of players? Of course we’re (generally) not fans of individual players — some players we might uniquely root for, and some players may mean a lot to the image of a team (Derek Jeter comes to mind), but take away any one player from a team, even that team’s best player, and there’s still a lot of consistency. But if you swapped all of your favorite team’s players with all of your most hated team’s players, what would you be a “fan” of by continuing to care about the jerseys/etc.?
This is why the Marlins seem so strange: it felt like a foregone conclusion that this band of players would not make up the Marlins’ roster for anything but those WS runs. There was no there there, they lacked an intangible sense of being a team with some type of group identity that would carry on through slow roster turnover.
The flip side of this imo is the 2005-11 Phillies run, which might well be the platonic ideal of a baseball era. A core of very good, likeable, homegrown players, buttressed by occasional additions but never any identity crises created by free agent acquisitions; consistent regular season success; a WS victory; and never doing the sort of weight-throwing that makes you an evil empire type franchise (as sullies runs by NYY, BOS, and the like).
Excellent point.
Red Sox have an interesting squad, I don’t really mind seeing them lose as long as there is perceived progression and hope.
Compare that to what the Phillies fans have had to endure the last two-three years. It’s just gradually getting worse. Only recently when they’ve started to move out a whole lot of pieces there is some progress again.
Red Sox looks real good for next year, I wonder though if they should consider getting rid of Panda. Cutting their losses ASAP, realizing that it was a mistake to sign him, or Hanley.
They’ll lose money, but might be able to bring in some bullpen arm or back end starter instead.
I would keep Hanley, but I have too little info to make any kind of call on that. I just think history shows you that you should make these tough decisions sooner rather than later.
This.
While it didn’t work out as well as hoped in the last two seasons, it’s important not to forget that the Redsox still are waiting for their premium prospects to establish themselves, which for normal players not named Trout takes a while.
Even in those years where they “sucked”, they were relatively competitive:
’11: Played .700 baseball for 2 months from June – July with an offense that wrecked teams before all pitching fell on its face in September. Went 55-35 in the first half and collapsed in the second.
’12: Bobby V, which was a total fiasco. 43-43 in the first half before selling off their major pieces and going 26-50 in the second half.
’13: WS
’14: Similar to 2012, they were bad but not horrible up until the trade deadline. 43-52 in the first half, traded the entire starting rotation and went 28-39 the rest of the way.
’15: 5 back of the yankees at the break, but then tanked to open up the second half.
The 12 and 14 teams were bad, yes. But I think their records at the end of the season look significantly worse than they really are because they sold off a lot of pieces to their team. If we were to just look at Aug-Sept in both of those years, the team went 36-77, a .318 pace. The fire sale during each of those seasons played into that.
I know it’s typical and bull crap but……#RINGZZZZZ
I subbed the 2010-2013 Rangers in – 2 world series, a wild card loss and a play in game loss. Not quite as impressive as Detroit’s run from a regular season perspective, but the 2011 Game 6… I would definitely have taken 1 World Series and three other losing seasons.
As a longtime fan of the SF Giants, I can tell you that the out-of-nowhere championship in 2010 was a lot more fun than the string of frustrating not-quite-enough finishes from 1997 to 2004 despite the excellence of the game’s greatest hitter. (That seems like a fairly close parallel to the Tigers of 2006-2014). A consistently good team is fun to watch and always offers hope, but winning the title is what we are all hoping for.
I am an Angels fan that lives in Giants territory, and I am incessantly forced to hear about a dynasty that, deep down, I refuse to believe in. Recently I wondered if I would prefer to have the Giants’ WS championships over getting to watch Mike Trout be awesome every day. It sounds like you have had it both ways. I still don’t know what I would take.
It depends really.
As a Yankee fan, I’m not championship-starved like Detroit, so I think I’d pick detroit’s 4 years, which remind me of the 2001-2004 yankee years, instead of the Boston seasons, which would remind me of a combination of the 2008, 2009, 2013, 2014 yankee seasons, but worse.
If I learned anything from Jack Kerouac, it’s that it’s about the journey, not the destination.
Tigers.
Ugh.
As a M’s fan who isn’t old enough to have watched the “glory days”, I’ve never experienced what either one of these scenarios feels like. I know going down to game 162 last year(and still falling short of the playoffs) was the best season I’ve had the pleasure of watching and now they’re back to underwhelming. I would gladly take one year of success out of every 4.
I hemmed and hawed about it, because I think we’re all undervaluing how fun it is to have 4 seasons in a row of “holy crap this could be awesome” vs three seasons of “sigh… when does the nightmare end?” But then I convinced myself that nice finishes are just that, nice finishes, while championships are what we aspire to. Flags do fly forever, and I won’t be sitting back much as the 80 year old diehard Tigers fan I am reminiscing about the 2006-2014 period as much as I would reminisce about a World Series victory.
That was phrased poorly, and now it sounds like I am 80 and not 27.
Flags may fly forever, but when the last one your team raised was 107 years ago, they start becoming a punchline. Given the lottery that is the MLB postseason, I think I’d prefer my team be contenders every year and have that chance to go on a run rather than have just one season where everything comes together just right in a way it had no business doing so.
But this isn’t a lottery. You know that in those 4 good years, you’re not going to win. So, if you could choose the next four years for yourself, such that you’d wake up the next day and forget that you had this choice, would you choose to give yourself 4 winning seasons knowing you won’t win? It seems to me choosing the winning seasons because you have a chance to win the WS is missing the point.
I’m honestly shocked that so many people picked the Sox. I thought it would be a landslide for Detroit. The Tigers had excellent playoff teams all four years and Tigers fans never had a break from being excited about baseball. The Sox on the other chance had one great year and then 3 years of not really needing to care about baseball because the team was so far out. 75% of the Octobers, the Red Sox fans had nothing to watch. I’d pick Detroit in a heartbeat.
In some ways getting close every year and never winning it is extra depressing.
In October in those three years, I just watched the Cardinals (my wife is from Saint Louis, guess who she roots for). If the Cardinals aren’t playing and the Red Sox are out, there’s a good chance I can root for my third favorite team (aka: whoever is playing the Yankees).
There’s baseball I care about in October, and if not there’s other sports.
During the regular season I watched the Red Sox. They still play 162 games even in bad years.
Is watching your team lose in October four times in a row really better than watching it win one time and watching someone else three times? I spent the 70s and 80s watching the Red Sox blow it in August, or September, or yes, sometimes in October (1975 still hurts a bit), year after year.
I’ll take the titles.
I am a fan of baseball and having games that matters count. The Tigers were in exciting contention year in year out. Every game mattered. When an August game is meaningless because your team sucks, it takes away a lot more enjoyment than is gained if they win the last game in October.. One championship or years of excitement? I’d take the excitement I could see a casual fan preferring the championships, but I am surprised that on fangraphs, so many would choose wasted years of baseball.
3 years of not really needing to care about baseball because the team was so far out.
The standings aren’t what determines whether I care about baseball. I suspect I’m not alone in this.
Bit of a loaded question – if a genie asked if I’d take a championship and crap over 4 playoff births, Championship every time. Obviously as a fan that has no idea what the future holds, I’d prefer a team make the playoffs every year because the championship is the goal, an making the playoffs is the best way to win said championship.
This was actually a little hard to answer, and it took some reflection on the specific problem posed. The problem is that, of course, you don’t know the outcome at the time you’re watching — the experience of being a fan of a playoff-bound team is pretty much the same regardless of what is going to happen in the playoffs. That’s what pushed me toward the Tigers model, that and (of course) the idea that really, win or lose, the playoffs are a crap shoot, so in some sense you should really, looking ahead rather than backward, want your team to have more trips to the playoffs.
But the problem (related but slightly distinct) that’s really been on my mind in recent seasons is how much increased playoff randomness is making me want to identify as a fan of regular-season baseball and *not* invest as much in playoff baseball. Playoffs of course are fun, but I essentially am coming to view them as icing on the cake, rather than part of what is central to my following baseball.
As a Royals fan too young to remember ’85 and prior, I’ve endured plenty of losing seasons. And in some ways, all that losing made last year’s post-season that much sweeter. Personally, I would take a few more losing seasons in exchange for a Salvador Perez 2-run homer against Bumgarner in Game 7 last year. I voted for the Sox.
There is one winner every year. Either your a winner once and loser three times or a loser four times. Red Sox for sure
you’re*
I’d rather be happy consistently than ecstatic one year, and unhappy the other three……
if baseball actually effected my happiness……
“If you lose the last game in the season, nobody gives a shit.” – Brad Pitt
And if you win the last game of the season, and it happens to be in Sept, same thing…
By choosing the Red Sox, I would have to say that I want to be a Red Sox fan. No thanks.
Your loss! 🙂
This is hard. Ultimately, I ended up picking the championship–as others have noted, when I’m old, I’ll treasure that championship and the elation that goes along with it much more than memories of being close regularly.
What almost swayed me towards the Tigers’ option is the at the moment excitement of those seasons. Living and dying with each pitch. As a Phillies fan I know how droll these throwaway seasons are. But, being currently entrenched in a terrible team situation, I’ve still been enjoying baseball, so while any championship hopes are years away, I am still loving the sport.
So give me the championship. Live on, 2008.
My team is the Indians and their run from ’94 to ’01 is another example of a team that was great but without the ring.
I voted Sox. Easy choice.
Just like the Red Sox, my NY Giants won a super bowl in 2011, have not made playoffs since, would not trade that SB for anything. Do you ever hear a newly hired manager or gm say “We are going to win 95 games every year”? Mo they promise championships.
I agree with you about the NY Giants, but I think football is different. On a Sunday (or Monday… or Thursday… or Saturday), I can watch 85% of NFL games and get very into it. I can only really care about 33-50% of MLB games on any given day. So if my team sucks in the NFL, I can still enjoy football. If my team sucks in baseball, it is a LOOOOONG season.
If you watch your team play baseball every night, and literally look forward to it any work each day, then I’d prefer the Tigers in this survey. I couldn’t stand my entire spring/summer being dog shit. But this is mostly my problem, since I tie my emotional happiness to a bunch of grown men playing a children’s game for millions of dollars. So there’s that.
As a Rangers fan who had a good window without a championship I voted Sox. I feel like this poll needs a sub-question about what team you root for because I think that would affect how you voted. My hypothesis is that fans of teams without a championship will vote for the Red Sox window, and that fans of teams with championships in their lifetimes will vote Tigers. Until you have a ring, that’s what you’re chasing. When you’ve won one, you want consistent entertainment.
Agreed 100%
I’m a Red Sox fan and voted for Detroit because I just haven’t much enjoyed most of the last two seasons and I really want to watch meaningful baseball until at least September. However, if you had asked me this in 2003 my answer would have been: “Give me the Flag! Follow it up with years and years of terrible baseball if needed, but dammit I want the flag.” 2003 was a pretty good year as a Red Sox fan, up until Pedro wasn’t taken out of the game. After that it felt like, yeah, maybe we’d have good teams for years to come, maybe management was finally being just a little bit smarter than it had been for 80 years or so, but as a Red Sox fan I was going to be continually let down anyway. If you had promised me the 2012-2015 Red Sox then, I would have thanked you so damn much. Of course, the 2004 Red Sox turned out to be even better, but I think I could have held out for 10 years until 2013 if need be.
So, flags for the flagless, but right now I just want to watch meaningful baseball for a few years, even if it ends in tears in October. At least it’ll last until October.
1 championship and three top 10 draft picks. That’s a no brainer
1988-1991 Oakland A’s, covering my high school years. Beat that.
93-96 Yankees covering my high school years.
93 the obvious beginning of something special after so many years.
94 looked like the best team in baseball perhaps then strike
95. PLAYOFFS!!!! Mattingly turns the clock back ten years. Absurdly intense and exiting loss to mariners.
96: Super entertaining championship year featuring a bunch of now established stars in their 20s. Beat the clearly superior best team in baseball in dramatic fashion. I lost $150 dollars betting my friend that the braves would sweep them. Best $150 i ever spent.
The leyritz hr and girardi triple are still burned in my mind.
My vote is for the Detroit Tigers because I don’t value championships as much as the next person. I have been a lifelong Cincinnati Reds fans, and they have not won the world series in my lifetime, so I can’t speak on that experience. I am also a life long fan of the Louisville Cardinals NCAA Basketball team and they have won a championship in my lifetime. When Louisville won the national championship in 2013, my first thoughts were of all of the years I have spent watching this team. I devoted all of this time and attention, presumably, to someday, see my team win the championship. I thought of all the experiences in the arena and in living rooms i had watching the Cards play ball. I thought of the all the time spent with friends and family. All of that seemed important to me at that time. It took the experience of winning a championship to realize the romanticism of fanhood. The outcome of a game consisting of a bunch of 18-22 year olds throwing an orange ball around, or in baseball’s case- a bunch of millionaires on a diamond, weren’t the important thing. The important thing was the memories spent drinking a beer with friends and family, watching the millionaires on the diamond. Or the comforting sound your hometown commentator droning on as you fall asleep listening to the radio as a kid. A winning team encourages these things to happen more often. Having said that, I hope my teams win the championship every year for the rest of my life.
For me, it depends on how championship-starved your team is. If I’m a Cubs or Indians fan, I’ll take the one championship and the three bad seasons since the championship in those cases is basically something no one’s experienced (unless you’re a really old Indians fan).
Other than that, I’ll go with the sustained success + no championships.
“Tak reflects the subtle turning of the world. It is a mirror we hold to life. No one wins a dance, boy. The point of dancing is the motion that a body makes. A well-played game of tak reveals the moving of a mind. There is a beauty to these things for those with eyes to see it.”
I voted for the Sox years, but not because I value a championship, we all know that was kind of lucky given the years surrounding. I voted because I liked seeing them lose a bunch while also pretending they were awesome at the same time.
The last place finish allows better draft picks! worst to 1st+WS to worst is the best outcome. the Blue Jays 201 years of 3rd+4th place finishes are the worst outcome..
21 years ;o)
It would be really interesting to see how the responses break down by fans’ favorite teams. I suspect that the response profile for a fan of the Cardinals is pretty different than somebody who roots for San Diego.
You need a championship. Once you get it you go Tiger’s model.
Nothing compares to the championship, and all the seasons your team finished just short seem to fade from memory, yet you will remember every last detail of that first championship. After that even winning it again doesn’t quite have the same effect, but boy is losing hard to take.
That is spot on. I’ll never trade my memory of the Angels winning in ’02, still my favorite sport experience of all time (followed closely by some memorable Lakers titles). But after that the Angels have been just competitive, and the thing that burns me most isn’t when they don’t win the title but when they don’t make the playoffs, those years are so much more painful than they were in 90s, when all our hopes and dreams were just in the title. So yeah, if I’ve never had a title I’m keeping ’02 until I die, but if I can keep ’02 then the Tigers model is much more appealing. It’s good for socializing and things. Though I still voted Sox. Hey, life’s good either way.
Tigers fans now get to watch Jose Iglesias every day. Red Sox fans don’t anymore. I loved watching Jose Iglesias.
I am a Buffalo Bills Fan and a San Francisco Giants Fan.
I spent (seemingly) my entire childhood experiencing the odd bounces, questionable ref calls, and statistically understandable missed 47 yard field goals that result in missed championships. I have spent the last three (even) years experiencing the odd bounces, questionable ump calls, and statistically improbable performances by career 4A players that result in 3 WS championships in 5 years.
Take the championship. Once you consider that there are 30 teams (32 NFL), you begin to appreciate the number of fans whose seasons end in defeat- and the statistical improbability that you will ever again appreciate a championship in your peak fan-years.
Granted, I’m slightly biased in having the wonderful Giants’ broadcast teams, which make odd-year seasons (and the ’07-’08 versions) enjoyable nonetheless… but to me, it’s a no-brainer.
Dusty Baker did help the Giants when a World Series…as the manager of another team.
Did I just seriously type when in the place of win? It’s already been a long day and I’m an idiot.
I am an Indians fan, so you would think I would choose the championship, but honestly I will take the Tigers sustained success and after thinking about it, it ended up not being close.
As a Boston sports fan, I enjoyed the Patriots run between championships more than the Red Sox roller coaster ride in recent years. While losing on the big stage was very painful, a team that is perpetually in it is more entertaining and offers more hope than a fluke World Series win and ending up out of the playoff conversation in early June during the rest of the years.
What’s worse with the Red Sox this year is that the team’s roster doesn’t look to have potential for winning seasons in the near future without a major roster overhaul that ownership either can’t or isn’t willing to do. Detroit, despite their underperformance this year, doesn’t seem to have that issue nearly as badly.
I’m an Orioles fan and they haven’t won it all since 1983. I would rather have the championship. I am used to watching last-place teams: they can be plenty entertaining, with lots of good players and storylines even as they lose.
It’s funny to me that the Red Sox are being used as an example in a poll about the value of championships to fans. Is there any question how Red Sox fans would have answered this question in 2003? Now they’re all blase…
Clearly 41% of the people answering this poll are not Cleveland sports fans.
Johnny Idiotface will never bring a championship to Cleveland. Lebron James, isn’t going to bring a championship back to Cleveland.
Yea honestly it’s all perspective. If I’m a Yankees or a Giants or a Cardinals fan then maybe I’m taking that Tigers experience, but if I’m a Cubs or a Mariners or an Indians fan I can’t pass that title up.
But then I think a little more and the thing I love most about being a fan is the unexpected and the sense of hope that is completely undermined by this exercise so I really don’t even know.
I voted as “completely ignore everything that came before and after”. So, I tried to vote without taking even a little bit into account how the team is positioned for the following years, or the quality of the front office going forward, or anything. To me, a team that is consistently good over a long period is a sign of a good front office, whereas a team that is bad over a long period but has one outlier year where they win it all is a sign of a bad one. So, if the Tigers’ situation implies a good front office, I might take that over the Red Sox situation.
I will note that the Red Sox are a weird example because they’ve been projected to be good all along, so if a team is always projected to be good but keeps underperforming, I don’t really know how that reflects on the front office. However, for this purpose, I’m considering team record, and not the specifics of the Tigers and Red Sox here, which I think is how Jeff intended it.
So, all that said, I voted for the Red Sox, because I don’t take it granted that my team will win a championship as long as I live (or as long as I care). I’m 25 and my team is the Dodgers, so one could say I’d be crazy to think that my team won’t win one pretty soon. Still. One title is worth three bad years to me.
Flags may fly forever, but ducks fly together.
if this were college I would go with the Tigers. But with pro sports being more volatile and about the ends than the means you have to take the World Series win.
Since the last time I saw a local team win anything (1991 Minnesota Twins), I have sat year in and year out as the 4 professional sports teams come up short, some in horrific fashion.
I went with the Red Sox because I remember every year from 2001-2010 when the Twins had good teams, but not great teams, much like the Tigers. It’s about winning championships, simple as that.
This took me less than a second to come up with my answer……give me those 4 good years over the 1 title year and the 3 crap years.
Winning a WS doesn’t have same level of accomplishment or respect than a NBA/NFL title winner as most MLB fans would agree if they played the baseball post-season over again there’d be a new winner most of the time. That’s not same case usually in NFL/NBA.
You don’t seem to get enough bang for your buck out of those few extra weeks of playoff enjoyment to get me thru 3 long years of totally meaningless baseball. There’s just no way in the summer of crap season #3 in a row I’d be walking around happy saying “I’m totally fine that my team stinks again this season because hey we won it all three years ago”.
The ultimate high that you got from winning leaves shortly afterwards. It can’t be bottled up and used over and over as that special feeling lessens considerably once the next season starts up as the quest for a new best team begins.
There’s just no way to me that the feeling from a title is strong enough for me to beat adding up all the excitement and happiness that you get daily from over 700+ straight days of being a part of meaningful baseball. Give me the 700 days of happiness as that adds up to way more.
As a Tigers fan…the obvious answer is the 2012-2015 Red Sox.
100% agree, from another Tigers fan. But then again, you always want what you don’t already have, so it’a absolutely a matter of perspective, like others said.
Tigers. The playoffs are a crapshoot.
Then again, I’m a Cardinals fan, so I’ve been spoiled like a kid with 6 grandmas. I definitely can see why fans of teams with less success would choose the BoSox.
I’m a Tigers fan but I voted for the 2012-15 Red Sox run.
Researchers on happiness know that the measurement of happiness varies a lot depending on whether they ask respondents while events are unfolding whether they are happy and or whether they ask them some time after the fact. I suspect the same phenomenon is at play here. When I’m in the moment, I might have preferred the Tigers 2011-14 run more because they were always strong teams. However, a World Series win creates more permanent lasting memories. To a considerable extent, flags do fly forever in our hearts. There was no victory parade for the 2012 Tigers nor is there likely to be a 10-year, 20-year and 30-year reunion where fans can bask in those memories. The Tigers’ success was real but fleeting. You’re asking me now and I’d prefer the memories of a championship.
Tigers.
It’s really a question of whether you’re a fan of baseball, or just a fan of winning. Playoff runs are, of course, totally exciting; the postseason may be completely random, but it makes for amazing television. But any serious fan of the sport knows that almost every season ends in a disappointing loss for their favorite team – it’s just how it goes. And the problem with the Sox scenario for a serious fan is this: it means having to sit through hundreds of games of unwatchably bad baseball. I guess I’d rather see lots of wins and lots of great play from my team than hop on the bandwagon for one year for an otherwise awful team.
Wow, quite the accusation in that first sentence. Ask Roy Halladay which one he’d choose. I hear he likes baseball.
Also, you’re completely ignoring the segment of fans who watch more than just their own team. A true “baseball fan” would continue to watch the games regardless of whether or not their team is winning. Sooooo if they only way that you can enjoy baseball is if YOUR team is winning then YOU’RE not the real “baseball fan”.
Absolutely. I can find a rooting interest in the playoffs every year, regardless of whether or not the Sox make it. And I’m still watching the Sox this year, albeit intermittently.
And the problem with the Sox scenario for a serious fan is this: it means having to sit through hundreds of games of unwatchably bad baseball
What a completely bizarre definition of “serious fan”. Surely they’re not serious about baseball, since losing baseball isn’t anything close to “unwatchably bad”.
Maybe you meant “serious fan” of winning, which is very different (and kind of makes your statement about it tautological).
I just think he’s trying to remind us that he’s above trivial things like championships and appreciates the game in a way “bandwagon” fans like me never will be able to.
As a Yankees fan I’ve gotten to see a competitive team almost every year for more than 20 years now. Every single one feels like a failure except for the five WS wins. The worst failure was 2001.
I can only see it as the Tigers failing all four years, while the Sox were successful one out of four years. Easy call for me. I take the ring.
With a championship, you can always look back during down times and say, “Well, at least we did win it all that one time back when we were really going for it.” It soothes the pain of the bad times.
As a life long Tigers fan, it has been a hell of a ride the last 4 years (more really since 2006) and I have enjoyed every moment appreciating just how hard it is to have sustained success in baseball. I’ve watched or listened to nearly every game during that time and have consciously thought on a weekly basis that this may very well be the most consistently entertaining period of my baseball fandom. It’s something I would never trade away.
That being said, the year we win a championship for the first time since 1984 (and first of my lifetime) will be equally as memorable and enjoyable.
It’s about realizing we are just fans along for the ride. We don’t control our own destiny so might as well just enjoy the ride that we are on and see where it ends up.
I vote Tigers, obviously.
As a devoted follower of the 1993-2012 Pirates, either option sounds fabulous to me…
But since the 2013-???? Pirates are currently following the Tigers model (without the division title), and I’m enjoying every second of it, I voted that way.
Here’s the thing, you either are looking at this through hindsight (which is what I think is what we’re supposed to do) or what you’d want in the moment. There is no question in my mind that I would rather be the Tigers in this scenario, if I’m living through it. You never know whether a team is going to win or lose a title in any given year, but if they’re in the hunt, you’re engaged and you’re hoping. Losing a title that you don’t know you’re going to win or lose is a lot more exciting than never having a chance.
But, a title in retrospect makes the losing easier to stand. The Red Sox title makes the 3 years around it almost pointless to a degree. There’s a definite grace period awarded for winning a title, and despite what Boston media would make you believe, they’re still living in it. So, they got to the top of the mountain, and that’s what you play for, and so they’re to be considered a more ‘successful’ team, theoretically, than the Tigers.
I’d rather live through the Tigers, unquestionably. But I think that, if we’re talking about 4 years, that I’d absolutely prefer to look back on the last 4 years as a Red Sox fan. Now, the real question is how long that title sandwich would need to be for you to not want it. I’m an Orioles fan, and they had 15 years of uncompetitive losing. Say, for instance, they won a title in 2004… Would that be worth it? At some point the amount of losing off-sets the title. I’m not sure where it is, but 15 years is probably more than I would like to stomach again.
Me and Kobe agree, flags fly forever. (I’m also a Red Sox fan so just a little biased)
As a Mets and NY Giants fan I’m picking the championship. The Mets from 06-08 are my only memories of winning mets teams and they never won, compared to the Giants 2011 superbowl and now three years of crap. I as a fan am much more satisfied with the Giants at this point than the Mets and the Mets are winning now.
The Giants of the 1960’s had a lot of great players and great teams. It seemed like they finished 2’nd every year to different teams. Dodgers, Cardinals, usually the Dodgers. It was incredibly frustrating, but I still look back on those years as a sort of Golden Age for the Giants(of course, nothing like their current run).
My young adult daughters still fondly remember the Bonds years.
It’s a tough call, but based on that, I’ll take some great players to cheer for and being competitive every year.
Here’s a question from a fellow Giants fan:
If you had to trade the 2010-2014 Giants years for either the Tigers or the Red Sox years, which would you choose?
I’d take the Red Sox years, but I wouldn’t have signed Sandoval.
Ummm… this is tough. At first I want to say I’d trade for the Red Sox years, b/c I really want that one championship. But to win one along with 3 last place finishes would have even ourselves believe it to be a fluke. I think we’d still have the same bitter chip on our shoulder.
So, I’d say the Detroit years. But to come so close every year and never win would be like living 2002 over and over and over again, the very definition of hell.
So, I can’t decide!!
I’m shocked by the results, honestly. This is the reason teams sell out just for the chance and sacrifice everything just to make a run. I would, without question, rather have games every year mean something and always be able to go to the park and watch a competitive team in a meaningful game than have to suffer through three of four years being disappointing and meaningless just to have then win the World Series. I’m paying for these tickets after all. Yes, watching a World Series game in person is incredible. But, overall happiness is a no brainer. Detroit’s streak is the easy winner for me.
Flags Fly Forever. Even when my team is losing(the Rangers) I am still interested in every game. Would much rather have a World Series championship than 4 division championships.
As a Braves fan I voted Detroit because I know now that the best way to another title is consistent winning. But before 1995 I would quickly have voted the Boston example. Seeing as how I’d already survived Atlanta’s 70s and 80s futility, a lucky end of season run would have been most welcome. At that point, a title was nirvana. Especially after 1991, which really was the lucky year I’d long hoped for. Finally winning a championship validated my two decades of devotion to a no-hoper. I felt like my team was somehow more worthy. Now though, I want a well run team that has a chance. Yes luck is involved, but good teams need less of it.
This is an interesting question to ask an A’s fan whose best recent 3yr run was thwarted 2x by these Tigers. I can say this, I wouldn’t trade that 3yr stretch to be a 2012-2015 Sox fan, but that has a lot more to do with the personality of that specific team.
I don’t know if I can answer the question based on just # of reg season wins vs. championships won in a 4 year period. Because, really, I don’t know what it feels like to have your team win a championship, the last time it happened I was 4yrs old.
I can say this, I was at the AL Wild Card game last year, to have my heart ripped out again, and just the other day I was remembering the game to someone, very fondly, realizing that it was still one of the richest experiences of my sports-viewing life. I guess I vote for the Tigers.
I think this is a tricky question. I am a White Sox fan whose fondest baseball memory is 2005. If you were to ask me if I could have had the Tigers last four years for my team or the Red Sox, I would choose the Tigers but that’s because I have the memory of the 2005 season. A Tigers fan would at least have to be 40 at this point to even have significant memories of their last championship.
As a Red Sox fan myself, I have 2 different answers. In the moment, at the time of that 4 year window, I would rather have the Detroit route. Winning it all in 2013 was amazing, but 3 of the last 4 years have been very tough to watch and follow, they’ve just looked that bad.
However, if I’m looking back on the 4 year stretch 20 years from now? I want that championship, it’s what I’ll remember more than the 3 terrible years, or 4 good years that ended with losses.
In the current league size, the average team will wait 30 years between championships. There’s plenty of time to have runs of sustained success in 30 years after a run of craptastic/awesome years in which a World Series was one.
I can’t stand to watch horseshit baseball (I watch or listen to 150 of my team’s games/year. I will take a good regular season team every year over putting in the Wold Series highlight video from 3 years ago.
Hi Jeff, thank you for looking at my comment on the Lucchino’s Departure article and writing an article (and making a poll) out of it. Here was my original comment: “People “blame” Dombrowski for not bringing a pennant to Detroit. Since 2010, the tigers have won their division 4 times and made the world series once. On the other hand the Red Sox have only made the playoffs one and they won the World Series that year. Regardless if you are a fan of one team or the other. In which position would you rather be? 1 World series and 3 last place finish, or 4 division titles and no World Series?”
Thanks for spawning a cool post!
If you can chose what happens, i.e. see and select the future, I don’t see why anyone would not pick the championship. The losing you will understand because you know the championship will be there. I understand the pleasures of a dominant but not championship team (Will Clark, Barry Bonds eras) but ultimately you want the championship, at some point. And if you can control that, why not a championship?
As a rude A’s fan used to post in his ad for Barry Zito, wouldn’t you rather have championships rather than a brand new great stadium etc? Of course, it felt pretty good to watch his message change with each new championship, though it was still snarky for a while (“wouldn’t you prefer more?”) longer.
Of course we want the championship, we understand that you can’t win it every year, but we eventually want to see our team win it.
So while this is a nice thought exercise, the thing is nobody knows what is going to happen. You might have a nice Mariners/Rangers run, or you might be the D-backs or Marlins and get that one championship. You have no idea whether the long string of near misses will get old or lead to something bigger. If you have control, of course you want the championship, it would be all worth the pain of losing.
And as a fan who was waiting nearly 40 years for 2010, I’ve seen more than my share of lousy losing teams, I don’t really understand the fans who don’t follow if the team is losing (though I have some understanding because I went through the Cohan Warriors regime). Even when I first became a fan, they were my team, as mediocre as they were in the 70’s for the most part, and I just adjusted my expectations, much like a parent might do. The only time I didn’t follow the Giants closely was after the last strike, and it took me a few years to get over Matt Williams losing a chance at 61 homers (McGwire/Sosa sucked me back in…).
The losing didn’t make the recent years sweeter for me. The domination has, because I’ve felt for a long while that the Giants would be the Team of the 2010’s, and so far, so good. It still bothers me that some refuse to see the obvious, and denigrate the team because they didn’t make the playoffs in 2011 or 2013 (hey, lets kneecap your best star player or put down half of the top of your lineup with injuries and see if your team makes the playoffs). But I’m realizing that that’s life, not everyone will see things the same way as you do. Though the OCD inside me tells me otherwise.
People keep on saying that the playoffs is a crapshoot, but studies by BP and THT showed that it is pitching and fielding that wins championships, not offense. That’s why people keep on scratching their heads with the Giants wins, they marvel at how poor their offense were (back then, now getting pretty good, though not homer good), but it is defense that helps win in the playoffs, both pitching and fielding. Pitching has not been as good lately, but dominant early on, and the Giants as a team has been ranked highly for defense for years now, rarely tops, but usually positive, and over time, one of the tops in the majors.
People forget that great pitching makes it actually easy to win with poor offense (play around with pythag to learn). I blame DIPS for a lack of appreciation by the saber crowd for what pitchers can do (and as a saber myself, I’m ashamed). People are missing the forest for the trees by focusing on the peripherals only, people need to focus on the starts, the games, whether via QS, Game Score, or Baseball Forecaster’s PQS methodology. Then you will see that pitchers often have a huge amount of control over any game. Otherwise, how is it that some pitchers, year in, year out, throw a large quantity of QS?
Pitching is no guarantee, for sure there is no guarantee, but the model I’d been hoping the Giants go with was (yes, I know the irony) the Dodger’s 60’s duo of Koufax/Drysdale. Cain I thought would be good enough for that, but then once Lincecum came, I felt we had our duo. Then Bumgarner came along, and with that came more comfort. But as the Phillies learned in 2011, it don’t always work. But the more you got, the more likely you are to advance.
I don’t care about the playoffs. Once the regular season ends, I check out on baseball for the season. I often don’t even realize who won until a month after.
So I’m not picking spending 3/4 of seasons being a horrendous disappointment only because of some bizarre luck in the other year over four years of being excellent.
Glad to see at least one other person having the experience I’ve had in recent years. Playoff-randomness alienation, shifting increasingly to regular-season emphasis in fandom.
I almost 100% guarantee every Rangers fan here votes Red Sox…. I think you missed the boat not using the 2010-2013 Rangers. I really do not think you can come up with a bigger cummulative nut kick than the 2010-2014 Rangers including the historically comical injuries and late 2014 season surge to fall away from a top ss draft pick. Of course I am also a Oklahoma Sooners football fan. Going 0-5 in the last 10 years in championship title shots makes you appreciate the wins. Flags do fly forvere.
I think many of you are over thinking this. This is an emotional question, and you are missing the down part of it. Losing day after day is bad, but you get desensitized. Losing in the play offs hurts. Losing in the World Series hurts ALOT. Winning the World Series is a memory you can hold onto forever. It’s not just some malarkey about flags, it’s how seeing that flag makes you feel. for me, I can enjoy watching my team even if they are terrible, which they often are, because i like the game of baseball. But winning, that’s just on a different plane. And losing in the play offs is awful.
The intellectual answer may be the Tigers, but the emotional, passionate answer is the Red Sox. Who I hate.
I’m guessing that those who voted for the Red Sox scenario strongly identify with their teams. The rings are THEIR rings and the flags are THEIR flags.
If entertainment is your primary goal, I would think the Tigers scenario is more appealing. Baseball is no doubt entertaining regardless, but it is simply hugely more difficult to stay engaged over such a long season when the stakes for the team all but disappear.
Strongly identify yes, but I have no illusions that I am a part of the team. It’s not MY ring.
The thing is, what makes some baseball “meaningful” and other baseball not?
Meaningful games may be any game your team is in, or they are games that might lead to that championship, or there simply are no meaningful games being played in MLB. I can defend any of these positions and I have trouble coming up with any other idea.
So, if meaningful is games that might lead to a championship, then you’re admitting that the championship is what matters. If meaningful is ones your team is in or a null set, then the season is no more or less meaningful regardless of outcome.
I don’t see how “more meaningful games” argues for the Detroit model, the idea that some games are “more meaningful” only makes sense in the context of winning being the important thing. I’ll take the flag and enjoy four years of baseball. The Red Sox game I have on now is no less meaningful than any of their regular season games in any other year.
To the extent that my caring about the team depends on winning, it’s the flag that matters.
I find it kind of bizarre that on fangraphs of all places there is so much of the “Flags fly forever” sentiment. The same place where we go around talking about how none of the stats for the first month mean anything because of small sample size. And yet… Somehow the total dumb luck of winning a championship determines anything? and somehow we seem to think that it represents who has the best team? It seems a little bit like looking at who has the highest batting average after the first 3 weeks of the season and declaring them the best player in baseball. There is so much random noise that happens over 7 games that it means almost nothing compared to a full season of play. I enjoy watching the playoffs, and I enjoy watching them more when “my team” is in them, but honestly I don’t really see them as much different than a fancy all star game for 2 of the better teams that year.
Give me 4 years of enjoyable baseball anytime, and then we can argue about who the best team is based on actual statistical evidence… way more fun in my opinion.
Yes, indeed, it depends on how passionate a fan you are. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Yeah, obviously lots of people this deep in a FanGraphs discussion thread are passionless, barely fans at all. Whatever position you hold is obviously the One True Way to Be a Fan.
I have been lucky enough to attend many play off and World Series games as a fan. Frankly, having done so, this is a no brainer for me that you take the World Series win. It’s not even close. Really, I can watch baseball games constantly without caring who wins, except in the play offs or when the post season is on the line. No individual game in the season matters that much until the opportunity cost of losing becomes ENORMOUS. Take the ring, take the tile, keep it in your heart, pass it on to your children. Or analyze statistically why one team was actually better even though they didn’t even make it to the play offs. Take your pick.
As a Dbacks fan, this is tough. We won a title in one of the few times we’ve made the playoffs, but we haven’t been consistently good since that 99-02 run. 2 playoff appearances in 13 years sucks.
Having said that, I think I’d still prefer the Red Sox run. It’s more likely that a team is going to consistently suck than be consistently great, and if that’s the case, I’d like to at least have a championship to look back at.
I’m a Red Sox and I absolutely, unequivocally pick the Sox in this poll. That 2013 run was magical and just plain fun compared to the cathartic experience of 2004 and the businesslike win in 2007 and I wouldn’t trade it for anything.
AS a Mets fan since ’71, having tasted just a sip of champers and a whole lot of $h!t sandwich, I’ll take the Detroit model. Multiple seasons of meaningless baseball from late June on erodes the soul. Consistent success breeds hope, and that’s ultimately what it’s all about.
’86 was surreal, and watching Jessie Orosco throw his glove into the air and become the bottom of the dog pile was something I will never forget, but I’d suffer through 1,000 1988’s before I’d volunteer for the late ’70’s once.
If you are talking about looking at the time period after the fact retrospectively, then you’d choose the title. But I’m a baseball fan above else. I love my team, but when they are a mess it makes me less likely to be able to enjoy reading about the sport I love. Give me the Tigers.
An even better question – what you take going forward as a fan? I’m sure Tigers fans would take 3 disasters in a row if it meant a title. I suspect the Mariners fan would too.
Um well…
Mariners fan. I really enjoyed Seattle’s 2014 season, where the games were meaningful right up until the end of the season. I think it’s better for a team and their fanbase to have hope of winning more often than not.
I’m a diehard Cubs fan. This question is really, really easy for me. I would be willing to go through ten straight last place season and lose a finger to get just one World Series, and I wouldn’t need more than one second to make the decision.
If you want a more math-based response, I think a World Series is at least five times better than a season that results in a loss in the playoffs. Thus, I would take the World Series if the period is four years.
What a great article and a really wonderful read through the comments.
I’m not a religious guy but it occurs to me that by nature I’m a natural Budhist
As a result of a difficult childhood i managed to create s mental space free from expectation.
This has been invaluable in allowing me to survive.
Once i let go of all ambition and expectation i found myself happy for the first time. This happened around 23 years old and it was like a light switch was turned on.
There’s something deeply philosophical in this question. It’s a question about how you view life.
Do you value results or the moments.
Are you outcome driven or process.
I’m a process guy. I’m also a musician. I don’t recall big shows as much as i do the rehearsals or recording sessions spent bantering with people i care for deeply and with whom i make music.
I love the day to day of life. My fondest memories are mundane.
Don’t recall my wedding but i seem to remember every Sunday morning coffee on the porch with sun shining in my wife’s hair.
I don’t recall the vacations but i find myself strangely moved at odd times watching my kids walk down a street in front of me or making themselves a sandwich.
I no longer expect anything and thus am always surprised and delighted.
And i truly do not remember the 09 championship. I recal the arod destruction through the playoffs but i get more joy from watching a consistently entertaining team.
My memory just doesn’t work well enough for that. They don’t feel tangible and are rarely visual at all so memories are kind of pointless for me. I often tell my wife that i have no memories of my childhood other than strange bits.
I recall walking up to the stadium late with my dad and hearing Mickey Tettleton announced and saying “watch he’ll hr/against then life always” and cracking up 3 seconds later when he did.
Mundane everyday things. My memory doesn’t seem to give any extra weight to “important” things. So I’ll take the more consistently entertaining.
Disclaimer: I am a huge Red Sox fan. Always have been and always will be. The 2013 Red Sox were my absolute favorite Red Sox team assembled. Loved them and everything they did. However, every single other year has been completely miserable. Objectively I’d rather my team at least be in contention and tease me every year than win one and ruin the rest. Had I not experienced 2004 and 2007 I am sure I would feel exactly opposite.
Yeah tough to fault Jay’s fans. If they are old enough to at least recall watching one of the greatest teams of all time that is for some strange reason almost forgotten now. But since that run from the mid 80s-the mud 90s it’s been pretty much a disaster. They’ve gotten neither but I’m sure the younger fans would choose the ring.
Had to go with the Sox 4-year window due to my insatiable desire to see my team (Braves) win a championship. I was born in 1995, so I didn’t get to truly experience our last WS victory. I would in no doubt take a couple of years of suffering to experience a championship. Flags do fly forever, and I would do almost anything to see one fly over the skyline of Atlanta in my lifetime.
Red Sox. I love questioning moves and while yes the Tigers’ bullpen management has been hilarious I would still enjoy that one championship mixed in with bad years. Missing out on the playoffs because of a crazy choke job or 10+ games is tough, but losing in the playoffs pains my soul.
Many fans can remember every title their team ever won. But a handful of years where the team was competitive and fell short does not mean much in hindsight.
As a Pirate fan, I know the Pirates were National Champions in 1901, 1902, 1909, 1927, 1960, 1971 and 1979. Flags fly forever.
To me it all depends on your teams history. If you root for a long suffering team like the Indians, Cubs, etc. then the championship is paramount. On the other hand as a Yankees fan I am not starved for championships and would rather see my team be in the hunt every year.
Baseball is unique that you gain very little from losing. The draft is such a crapshoot that even having a number 1 pick is not that much of a consolation. In basketball or football when you lose you also win. You get a top draft pick who can help turn your franchise around so even when losing the fans have hope. As a Jets fan last year I rooted for the team to lose their last few games to get a better pick and hopefully draft a franchise quarterback. The same with the Knicks, I was furious that they won their last few games which hurt their lottery chances. However, I would never root for the Yankees to lose even if they were in last place. There is another factor, the length of the season. In football if your team sucks you only need to endure 16 games. In baseball the season goes on forever, 162 games, and losing is really painful. Therefore, the choice in baseball is very tough. I think it boils down to history. If my team has won a title in the last 10 years I would go with the Tigers model. On the other hand if my team is long suffering I would go with the title.
That makes a lot of sense.
This is an easy decision for me: Tigers. Simply, it’s hard to overstate how much fun it is to watch your good team win, and to win so much – as long as your team isn’t utterly contemptible or lifeless – and it’s infamously easy to overstate the joy of capturing a championship. But I’m going to stick with the first part of that: no matter the circumstances, when your team is winning it’s better than great (contemptible and lifeless teams excepted).
If your team’s the best then you get to marvel at their skill, bask in their noble dominance, and drink yourself silly with pride at the open bar;
if your team is embedded in the top tier, you get the excitement of close contests and unpredictable outcomes, as well as the incomparable passion of elite, high-stakes rivalries;
and if your winning team’s the underdog, you’re life becomes a succession of thrilling victories, with the easy joy of an unexpected success giving way to a polarized compound of disbelief and frenzy which, as the dream becomes reality, suddenly dissolves into absolute euphoria – often well-before the finish line.
My point is, there’s no kind of winning that isn’t seriously fun, and considering the huge number of wins that come in a successful baseball season, there’s hardly anything else in sports fandom that compares to being emotionally invested in a winning baseball team (roughly speaking, this imminent, major fun is being meted out 4 or 5 days a week for half the year – that can make a pretty significant impact on your quality of life).
I’m a Phillies fan with my earliest baseball memories provided by the 1995 squad (so I can go on about losing teams, too). For me, the 2007 race to catch the Mets and win the division was every bit as exciting as the following year’s World Series run – and the following three years were as much fun as the those first two of that team’s peak.
I imagine that Braves fans of the preceding era would not for a moment consider trading all those years of glorious, magnificent winning for a championship – trading the legacies of Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Chipper, Andruw, etc. for one big flash in the pan. Would they even trade that for a trio of Marlins-style championships?
Lastly, a month ago, I might not have been quite so vigorous in arguing the Tigers side, but, just as fans of all lousy teams are reminded once or twice a season, this 16-5 Phillies team has reminded me that winning is everything – and winning it all is just a something.
Losing in the championship is the worst. The ride to said championship is obviously amazing, but that loss at the end of the year is so painful to even think about that it’s hard to definitively say the regular-season success was worth it. In terms of net enjoyment there’s no question that you’d take the Tigers’ run, but the Sox didn’t have that singular moment of heart-ache that lasts forever (I don’t know if this applies specifically to Tigers fans, but it does to plenty of teams who lost in the championship) which is why I’d take the Red Sox. It’s less about getting that one moment of triumph and more about avoiding that one moment of heart break. But I’d seen my favorite team win before, so if you’re a fan whose team has never won a championship, I’d have to imagine you want that one moment of glory. But I’m a Red Sox fan so you should all probably trash everything I say because we’re all idiots and Mookie Betts is over rated.
I’m a Red Sox fan & I picked the Tigers run.
I do have a 2 pronged answer, though.
1 – As a Red Sox fan, I really loved that World Series title. You get quite a baseball high from it. This is better for the “from home” fan. The games on TV are better & you’ll probably go out to the local sports bars for games to enjoy the atmosphere in that manner.
2 – As a huge baseball fan, I chose the Tigers.
I have not wanted to go to Fenway to watch a baseball game since April & I live just outside the city. When they were in the playoffs/won the world series all playoff tickets were absurdly priced. Because they’ve won a WS recently, they don’t feel the pressure to reduce ticket prices. As a fan of baseball, it is so much better to have the Tigers team to watch.
I know I would vote otherwise if they hadn’t won since 19xx just so that Yankee fans couldn’t talk about that anymore.
These Red Sox teams are huge disappointments & it’s pathetic where they are considering talent – you’re disappointed for 3 months of the baseball season instead of it all crashing down and losing in the playoffs.
Given that the root hypothetical here is that you know going in what you’re in for, anyone who argues that the Tigers model is preferably because “the playoffs are a crapshoot” seem to be rather missing the point. You’re not choosing between four opportunities to win a championship versus a guaranteed championship. You are choosing between four opportunities to watch a good team FAIL to win a championship and a mostly-bad team that successfully wins one.
Personally, I can almost always find something to enjoy in watching a baseball game, even if the team I’m rooting for is nigh-terrible. For a team like the 2015 Red Sox, which have an awful record, there is still edification to be had in watching burgeoning stars like Betts and Bogaerts blossom on the field. And even if it comes with watching Joe Kelly routinely self-immolate on the mound, it’s still baseball, and there’s always the chance that Kelly will figure it out today and spin a gem. So the argument that watching a bad team is a unsurpassed misery doesn’t really hold water with me.
And on the flip side, as someone who has gotten to experience that championship recently, let me tell you – there is nothing like the exultant joy when your team wins it all. Even leaving aside ’04 and ’07, being in Boston for 2013 was a memory that will last me a lifetime, and a story I’ll be telling my kids for years after they’ve long since gotten sick of me telling it.
The mere thought of trading that memory for any other four years without a championship – even four years of sustained excellence – is just mind-boggling to me. Purely from a statistical perspective, you’re only likely to win one championship per GENERATION. And you’re saying I should trade one, guaranteed, for a mere four years?
No thanks.
The best would be to win 3 world series in 5 years (sorry for the gloating 🙂
I think the answer depends on whether your team has won recently (or in your lifetime). Before 2010, I would have traded 20 losing years if we can just win one championship. I seriously was starting to think it was not going to happen in my lifetime. Baseball was becoming a very bitter and stressful experience, esp. during the playoffs.
After 2010, my whole attitude is different. I enjoy baseball now no matter what. I don’t really mind the bad odd years, and enjoyed watching other teams in the playoffs. Frankly, after 3 WS in 5 years, I’d rather them not make the playoffs than make it and get eliminated early.
Red Sox (but, of course, I’m a Red Sox fan, so my opinion is invalid).
I might have answered this question differently before my team won a World Series, but ending the season with a win instead of a loss is like heroin. I’d definitely rather have Detroit’s 2011-2014 than, say, San Diego’s 2012-2015 (although 2015 started out interestingly enough). However, I’d definitely take the World Series and three terrible finishes over either.
It also helps that Boston had an excellent farm system over that run and plenty high drama even when the W-L record didn’t necessarily support avid engagement (Valentine, Punto Trade, etc.)…