Piggybacking with the Giants Starters
The Giants were left at the altar by a couple of high profile free agents this offseason and did their best to improve the roster in different ways. Listen to Brian Sabean talk before the FanFest this weekend, and what they ended up doing was look at ways to “deepen the roster.”
One of those ways was to invite their many starting pitchers back into the fold. Behind new horse Madison Bumgarner and returning horse Matt Cain, the Giants will slide in some combination of Tim Hudson, Jake Peavy, Ryan Vogelsong, Tim Lincecum, and Yusmeiro Petit.
That collection of names may not lead the Giants into the next decade, but the veterans are mostly capable of league-average (or so) work. That’s impressive depth, actually. Given that there’s a 65% likelihood that two starters are on the disabled list at the same time on the average team — and this team may be more likely than most to have starters get injured, given their collective age — it’s good that the Giants score well on our depth charts in different ‘depth’ metrics.
Below, see how the Giants rank when it comes to innings expected from their sixth and seventh starters, projected Wins Above Replacement from those slots, and WAR per 200 innings pitched from their sixth and seventh starters. Generally, the Giants look like a top-five team when it comes to starting rotation depth.
You can’t always go home with the belle of the ball. As Dave Cameron has pointed out before (with respect to the Athletics), it’s savvy to work around the edges and improve wherever you can, even at the sixth and seventh starter spots.
That doesn’t mean that the team is collectively ready to take the next step forward and defy convention. We know that pitchers do poorly the third time through the order, and that the Giants could benefit from ‘piggybacking’ starters, should the current roster allow for it.
Piggybacking — pairing starters for three-to-four inning stretches in the same game — happens right now. In the low minors, it helps young pitchers that need to stretch out. It’s used for the same reasons in Spring Training.
In the playoffs, we did see it in action for the Giants, as manager Bruce Bochy saved Yusmeiro Petit as safety blankets for certain starters in certain situations. Before FanFest, Bochy even referenced the possibility of using his starting rotation depth that way, but his pitching coach isn’t a huge fan.
For one, there are financial implications for the players that could make for an uncomfortable clubhouse. “You tell that starter you’re going to take him out before he gets his win and you’ll have the clubhouse turned upside down,” said pitching coach Dave Righetti.
Righetti admitted that the current roster allows for that sort of thinking –“It’s a great question and you do have to keep your thoughts open to different things” — but just didn’t think it would fly. “Till you see a guy fall down and need help, you don’t baby people here in the big leagues,” he said.
But there was something more important. A reason not to piggyback for a season. “The reason: you lose,” Righetti said. “Colorado tried it. It’s not healthy. I’m positive.”
It seems a bit unfair to call a practice that’s regularly-used in the minors and in the spring unhealthy. Maybe Righetti is referring mostly to the situation in Colorado, which admittedly didn’t turn out so great. It’s true that Drew Pomeranz and Christian Friedrich, the two younger starters in that 2012 piggyback rotation, missed large portions of 2013 due to injury. It’s also true that many pitchers get injured, and that the veterans — Jeff Francis and Jeremy Guthrie — didn’t see those same effects.
As for how well it worked out, we also probably shouldn’t point to one half-season effort and call the whole thing a failure. Just like with the injury side.
That isn’t to say that Righetti is wrong, of course. Spring Training and the minors are different, and in particular, they are different because of roster restrictions. Most staffs have 12 pitchers. If four pitchers on that active roster do the work of two starters, the other five will somehow have to absorb the 100+ innings that those two relievers would normally pitch. That could cause unhealthy usage from the other relievers. That could cause injury, even if not necessarily to the four starters that are now pitching on regular rest (but not pitching to as many batters).
Is there a golden ratio, where you avoid seeing that iffy starter a third time through the order, and yet you get enough innings out of your four piggybacked starters to replace the missing two relievers?
The league’s starters saw 4.2 batters per inning as a group. That means your league average pitcher could see 18 batters in 4.3 innings. Let’s give him four innings. Let’s give your second league average starter four more innings. You’ve now gotten eight innings from your two starters. Your league average starter averaged six innings per start. So you save two innings per piggyback start, and over the course of the season, you would theoretically save 120 innings total.
Now your pen has to absorb 10-20 more innings at most — and if you had a particularly versatile bench, you might be able to do that by running a 13-man staff out there. The benefits of having your two worst starters never see a lineup a third time through are established — batters are 13% better, relative to themselves, when they see a pitcher the third time in a game.
You might have noticed the catch. Your four starters should probably be around league average to make this work, at least in terms of work load (and even then there are 30 innings to account for). In the case of the Giants, they might seem like they aren’t far off from having four league-average starters. Pro-rate their projections to 200 innings, though, and their four worst pitchers among the seven possible starters are Jake Peavy (1.2 WAR/200), Ryan Vogelsong (.6 WAR/200), Tim Lincecum (1.4 WAR/200), and Yusmeiro Petit (3.6 WAR/200 because FIP loves him, and because he’s partially projected as a reliever). Since two wins above replacement is the shorthand for league average, this staff actually seems a bit short. Then again, all four of these pitchers would pitch better if they didn’t have to go long into games.
If players weren’t still paid at least partially based on how many wins they got. If your four starters could pitch up to league-average status by avoiding the third time through the lineup. If the rest of your relief staff could absorb 30 or so extra innings without health implications. If your versatile bench would allow for an extra reliever. If your particular players would accept the innovation as something that would help them and the team at the same time.
If most of these things were true, it might make sense to set up a rallying cry for the Giants to piggyback their final two rotation spots this year. As a team, they might be best suited for the second attempt at the strategy — three of the four pitchers are veterans that may not see another great contract, and the fourth is the most likely to be a swing man if the team doesn’t adopt the strategy, so there’s not much to lose. With the World Series hardware in hand, they could ask their pitchers to try something new. Their collection of arms could play up to the level that is needed for something like this to work, too.
They’d just need to get their pitching coach to like the idea.
With a phone full of pictures of pitchers' fingers, strange beers, and his two toddler sons, Eno Sarris can be found at the ballpark or a brewery most days. Read him here, writing about the A's or Giants at The Athletic, or about beer at October. Follow him on Twitter @enosarris if you can handle the sandwiches and inanity.
I’m a big fan of this idea, particularly for bringing up young starting pitchers with IP restrictions. Rather than just go 4-5 innings per start in the minors, you could call up two young prospects, and have them tandem start every 5th game to get their feet wet. I’m thinking this would work well with Meyer/May for the Twins, or Walker/Paxton for the M’s.
I thought this was going to be about Eno challenging the Giants starters to piggyback races…
One can win titles by maximizing ones resources, or one can engage in chicken walking in the hen yard. The Giants have found a way to win this way. I credit overcoming Zito’s presence as the catalyst.
Overcoming Zito’s…
“Hey guys, if we can manage to show up to ballpark every day and deal with old Barry, we can do anything!”
Hey, what gives with the disclaimer about my high WAR projection? How many scoreless postseason innings do i have to throw to get some respect? Or maybe when i break my own MLB consecutive perfect innings streak this year i will get some credit.
I don’t mind such a disclaimer because I’d be shocked if he can put up close to 4 WAR over a full season. But I have no idea where the projection came from. When I look at the Steamer Projections for 200 innings, I get the same number for Peavy and Vogelsong. Lincecum shows up with negative WAR though, and Petit is at 0.4 WAR in 65 innings.
http://www.fangraphs.com/projections.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&type=steamer600&team=30&players=0&sort=18,d
I took it from the depth chart page and pro-rated it.
http://www.fangraphs.com/depthcharts.aspx?position=ALL&teamid=30
Lincecum and Petit probably fare differently if you put them in starter or reliever bins.
This does not work. The G will crater this year, this is no postseason rotation. But if Cain slowly works his way back to average, if Yusmeiro gets his well-earned starting spot, if Peavy becomes strictly a #5, and if they sign someone decent next year, then 2016 is in play. I don’t see the farm helping with the rotation in the next two years, BTW.
Makes you wonder if a starter tries to throw harder if he knows he’s only going four innings?
Satchell Paige threw a lot of 4 inning games, and swore by the improvement. But then he swore at a lot.
I do like the tandem idea in theory, but it would work better with an American League team. With the DH in effect, you don’t have to worry about pinch-hitting for the pitchers, and can keep them in exactly two times through the order. In the NL, a manager will either be pulling the pitcher early to get the benefit of a PH, leaving him in long to try to stretch him to his next time at bat, or send in the next pitcher mid-inning and lose the benefit of a PH. Any of those options takes away some of the benefits.
So who in the AL might be innovative enough to try this? Until Joe Maddon made his move to Chicago, I might have said Tampa Bay. If Billy Beane were inclined this way, I think he would have done it by now. Who else?
If you look at Bochy’s MO it’s not an automatic strategy, but one reflexive to the status of the pitcher on a game by game, inning by inning basis.
Rags isn’t nearly the problem Saris makes him out to be. The pitchers would be much more opposed to this idea, even on team that is “team first” like the Giants. How Bochy uses his staff this early season is going to be funny to watch.
I’ve had a similar idea for a while now but I think the better strategy is to use four regular starters plus a 3-headed 5th starter, where three pitchers each pitch ~3 innings every 5th day. Any team that expects to contend should be able to field four decent starters so I disagree with Eno’s notion of taking up both the 4th and 5th spots with piggybacks. Better to take three guys, esp. guys you are grooming from your system, and every 5th day send them each out for one trip through the order. If the first guy looks good, leave him in another inning or two. If he stinks, the other two guys should be able to pick up the slack. This would also require fewer innings to be covered by the 4-5 other relievers, since the 4th starter is taking a regular load. You could rotate within the 3-headed starter so the order is Pitchers A-B-C the first time through, B-C-A the next time, C-A-B the third time and even figure out which orders work best (e.g. R-L-R or fast-slow-fast). And eventually you may even find that one guy emerges as a legit starter — who knows, if one of the original top-four starters falters, the new guy takes a spot in the top-four and the faltering guy joins the 3-headed 5th starter group (wouldn’t Giants fans have loved that option for Zito?!). Also, if only two guys are necessary for one game, the third guy is available for long duty the next day or 1-2 innings the day or two after that. Seems much more flexible than Eno’s idea that way. What it amounts to really is carrying the common Spring Training competition for the 5th starter spot deep into the season. You end up with tiers of pitchers being 1-4, 5-7, and then the various classes of relievers. What does Eno think?
So if the Royals simply pitch their starters the correct number of innings (I’m guessing Finnegan/Zimmer/Manaea in the 100ish range) then they have the best starting WAR in baseball?
It’s an interesting idea, but I’m not sure how to actually implement it.
Let’s say you team up Peavy/Lincecum and Vogelsong/Petit as the two tandems who pitch every 5th day.
When Peavy starts, how do you decide when to bring in Lincecum? Do you always allow Peavy to pitch 4 innings, then transfer the start? (a) What if Peavy has allowed 1H, 0 R, and 0 BB? (b) What if Peavy bombs in the first inning, and he’s only gotten 1 out, given up 4 R, and the bases are loaded?
If you always take out Peavy in both situations, he will average 3 IP, rather than 4, because the times he’s yanked early will bring down the average.
If you leave him in for (a), that’s 13 batters seen, and he has another 5 to go, so at most 1 more full inning. Do you then bring in Lincecum after batter 18?
What if both Peavy and Lincecum bomb in the first two innings? Who’s the mop up man/long reliever?